How Cheap Can A PC Be?

geoff lane writes "Ballmer wants a $100 computer. OK, can we build a reasonable PC for just $100 and a copy of Linux? The rules are: It's assumed that a monitor, keyboard and mouse are already available. Ethernet connectivity must be provided. All components must already have Linux support. All components must be new and currently available. The result must be electrically safe for the home. Is it possible?"

Comments

the Xbox

[WormholeFiend]

is at 149$... no dice with that suggestion I guess.

Re:the Xbox

[MadBiologist]

Didn't somebody hack a Gamecube to run Linux? I forget who hacked what to whom... I do remember that the Dreamcast could run Apache on Linux, and that's probably the cheapest console to get to run something like that.... if you can find one.

Re:the Xbox

[Anubis350]

yes they did, there's a website for it here

looks pretty cool, and prolly fulfils the reqs for this article

Re:the Xbox

[coldguy]

Er, maybe you didn't hear, but they dropped the price on the GameCube to $99 a long time ago.

Re:the Xbox

[drinkypoo]

In fact Xebian, a distribution of debian linux for Xbox, loads an onscreen keyboard and has a joymouse driver, by default. It would be horribly painful to get anything done with the onscreen keyboard using a game controller but it is not impossible. Xebian is free, and an Xbox is $150, although it's hard to get a 1.1 through 1.3 Xbox new these days - most of them are 1.5 and 1.6 versions, either of which will require a modchip in order to run unsigned code, because you can no longer flash TSOP. However, you can get a used Xbox for about $119, most of them are old versions, and they can be flashed as long as you know someone with the hardware. (I live in Marysville, CA and I will provide this service for free, but I will not load or provide any software, I accept no liability for any damage to your Xbox, and I will not provide the BIOS code.) I have a conductive pen, 007:AUF, and a Mega X Key, and I'm not afraid to use them.

Re:the Xbox

[10101001 10101001]

Three things. One, you need a buy a broadband adapter for the GC, which puts you over the $100 limit (the article says you need ethernet). Two, you need to buy PSO 1, 2, or 3, which puts over you the limit even more. Finally, you need another computer to actually load gclinux on the gamecube. There's no HD and no has has managed to make a GC disc with Linux on it. So, clearly the GC fails.

that's without windows

[fmorgan]

he wants something windows only and to sell windows-lite for $40 for it.

Sacrifice hardware for the good of software?

[skoda]

Why should the hardware profits be sacrificed to support high software prices?

Perhaps Windows should be cheaper to support high hardware prices. Cheaper software might also reduce piracy since the it would be more affordable.

Re:Sacrifice hardware for the good of software?

[Naffer]

Huzzaa~!
I for one would much rather spend my money on hardware then software. $100-200 for a piece of software is rather pricey. When I'm looking at pieces of software and seeing prices over $60, I get a bit suspicious. A boxed copy of Nero Burning rom cost $100, Intervideo's WinDVR is $80, and ever tried pricing a piece of data recovery software? The prices are so absurd you'd think they were just joking.
It's really weird. My secondary computer is a gentoo box, and installing software is as simple as "emerge _______." I don't even have to pay anybody.

Re:Sacrifice hardware for the good of software?

[Ummagumma]

$100-$200?

Have you priced Office 2003 lately? Absolutely REDICULOUS pricing model MS has.

Re:Sacrifice hardware for the good of software?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should the hardware profits be sacrificed to support high software prices?

You clearly don't understand economics. Hardware is like a public good -- you have to pay a certain amount upfront to design and build the hardware, but then the cost for helping each user becomes trivial. The marginal cost of hardware marketing is so low that the hardware makers are really price-gouging by charging us $1000 for a PC.

By contrast, software (like MS Windows) has to be carefully customized for your hardware. Adding a 128mb DIMM? Well, then Bill Gates is gonna have to recompile the user interface. Want to move the mouse across the screen? Bill will have to manually edit the binary codes in your kernel. Of course, no two users have the same amount of memory. And all these things like moving the mouse or typing or sending an IP packet... this is what makes the user experience unique. So Bill's work for one user doesn't help any of the other users. That's a lot of stress for Bill, and it naturally keeps the marginal cost of software very high.

So, I ask: why are PC's so expensive? How can we reduce the cost and get PC's to poor people? The software cost reflects a labor-intensive process, and it can't be reduced. Hardware is a public good, so the expense must come from price-gouging by the hardware makers. Therefore, to enable the poor people of the world to catch up with current technolgy, we must tell those over-priced Taiwanese hardware makers to stop ripping us off. (Why, I even heard that FIC makes more than $1 profit off each motherboard. That's outrageous!)

Maybe you should read an economics textbook.

Re:Sacrifice hardware for the good of software?

[Hawkins]

MS gets away with this because they sell the majority of their Office licenses to business users, and tons of businesses remain firmly convinced that something you pay for is always better than something that's free. A worldview that makes sense, given that a business usually makes money by selling some product and/or service. The more money something costs, the higher quality and/or more useful it must be.

Flawed but understandable reasoning.

Re:Sacrifice hardware for the good of software?

[Monkelectric]

Its a trick... 99% of people only need Word. So the only way you can get word is to buy: Access, Publishier, Power Point, Front Page, Info Path and Excel. Same thing with your cable company: you *WANT* sci fi, but you have to buy a "package" and get it with 10 other channels you don't want.

Re:Sacrifice hardware for the good of software?

[blastedtokyo]

The most common MS Office sku (Students & Teachers and you could be a student of the school of hard knocks for all they care) at Costco and elsewhere in the US for the home is

And it includes a pretty good spell checker.

Re:Sacrifice hardware for the good of software?

[BobWeiner]

The Student /Teacher Office suite ($150) is a great deal - it includes 3 licenses. $50 per license is more than fair.

Re:Sacrifice hardware for the good of software?

[nathanh]

Have you priced Office 2003 lately? Absolutely REDICULOUS pricing model MS has.

But Office 2003 comes with a spellchecker. Could be the best investment you've ever made.

Re:Sacrifice hardware for the good of software?

[clifyt]

"Well, if they only charged $30, ppl would go, it's only $30, so i'm not "stealing" that much from mega-corp. If it's priced at $100, it could cause ppl to rethink and not make copies."

Well, my company does a lot of 3rd party sound design for different synthesizer companies and all that.

Several years back, we were doing a lot of Kurzweil support...folks were complaining after spending $5k for a synth, the sounds should be free and were pirating everything they could get -- even though it was clear that most of these sounds were designed by separate companies not related to the original company.

At the time, normal sound disc for around a cd's worth of samples were $99 for an Akai format disc. Akai is the bare basic format one could get...nothing more than mapping the sounds across the keys. The same disc on a Kurzweil was generally twice that much because of all the programming that went into it. Kurzweil developers took pride in their sounds so that if you were playing a piano sample, not only did you get different velocity levels sampled, but most of the programs were smart enough to filter the samples so that there wasn't a distinct anomaly when you hit another velocity zone. This made the sounds as much a part of the synthesis realm as it did playing back pure samples.

But people *STILL* couldn't understand why a few dozen bytes of added data to each patch caused the stuff to double the price. The fact was, it took at least twice as long to convert this stuff and the man power cost more than the equipment to record in the first place.

Ok, where am I going with this?

We ended up doing a sound disc that got scrapped as the company we were under contract went under. So, we decided to sell it ourselves and share the data with the rest of the companies we had worked with before (lots of competition in the realm, but we are all friends -- except when we release products that compete directly, which rarely happens).

To make this a true experiment, and at the same time support our community, we decided that instead of selling it at the standard $200 range, or even the $99 range the standard no-frills discs had, we decided to go $30 and included shipping worldwide (which turned out to bite us in the ass for a few overseas shipments as a few cost more that $30 to send out -- but it was important we do this for the community and not go back on our words).

Sadly -- within a week of this, we found users selling dupes of this on eBay for half the price. We found folks submitting the data to Kazaa and eDonkey. We found FTP sites with all of this. One of the pirates we caught and knew by name claimed that at $30, it probably wasn't worth much and thus he wasn't hurting us. He also said that it wasn't as professional as the other stuff as we burned the discs ourselves (as opposed to getting them printed and stamped) and thus not worth it...its not like the data suffered any from this as we gave them the same exact product we would have given them at 4 times the price.

In our field, if a sound disc sells 200 copies, we are doing well. Everyone claimed if someone lowered the price, sound companies would make far more than the 200 copies sold. I can tell you, we got just under 200 copies -- and the fact the price was lowered did nothing. The next release we did for the $99 range sold MORE copies as people expected more...and it was actually a crappier disc because it was intended to work at a base level on several platforms, not just the high end (though our buyers almost all claimed they were buying it for these high end synths).

The fact of the matter is, if you price something lower, you are not going to increase your sales. You might sell less copies because of it. Price something for what its worth in the industry based on what others have already shown they will pay, and you will be in a much better position to sell. So, this isn't just a PHB theory...its the fact in many parts of the industry. No matter what you sell for, it will al

Re:Sacrifice hardware for the good of software?

[pnatural]

$50 per license is more than fair.

Is it fair to the guy who pays full retail price because he's honest?

Is it fair to the teacher in a developing country who gets less than US$50 a month in salary?

Re:Sacrifice hardware for the good of software?

[mike3411]

Ridiculous + Redmond = Rediculous

Reasonable Computer

[r2q2]

Sure with a free operating system you could probally pull of a computer with reasonable specs. I bought a 35 dollar computer that is a pentum 2 at 333 mhz. Then I upgraded the memory for about another 35. Then you upgrade the processor to a 733 for about 10-20 bucks. Well under a hundred dollars and still reasonable.

Re:Reasonable Computer

[Myuu]

Try your local state surplus. If you find out what day they get their inventory, you can get the craziest shit.

*Typing this on a 21 inch monitor he bought at North Dakota State Surplus for $20*

Re:Reasonable Computer

[Mr Smidge]

Typing this on a 21 inch monitor

I tend to find that monitors are better off as displays, rather than input devices..

I bought one

[Anonymous Coward]

When a Fry's Electronics store opened up out near Chicago, I picked up and AMD Athlon 1.3GHz, 512 meg of ram, 60 gig HDD and paid $99 for it. Of course it had Lindows installed on it, but after a quick reformat and poping in a redhat distro it was up and running in no time.

Dump...

[PaintyThePirate]

You can go to the average garbage dump and find at least one computer that will run something like Debian without a GUI. If you're lucky, you might find a Pentium II or faster, and be able to run something like DamnSmallLinux. Chances are, you'll be able to find a monitor, keyboard, and mouse there too. That accomplishes the task for $00.00.

Re:Dump...

[avalys]

Yes, and the rat you find living inside the case can become a new family pet!

Re:Dump...

[nate nice]

My friend and I actually do this. You would be amazed by the hardware we find. Usually we will grab things (clean things, they are sorted so all computer things are together, in a neat area) and bring them back to test and examine what we want to keep. Generally we find P2's and many floppy drives as well as some great CD drives and the occasional great find like a P3 that was dumped for some reason. We've gotten a few decent hardrives larger than 10 gigs. Not to mention many good cases and monitors and SD-RAM chips.

With this you can throw together a linux router on the cheap, like you said: $0.00. With the free software and hardware we put together Cisco 2600 comparable routers for free, MP3 servers and have created various other uses.

We even got a Mac G3 once.

We plan on moving our operation over to a ricer part of towns dumps to see what we can find.

Re:Dump...

[Trespass]

That assumes that your time is worth nothing.

Re:Dump...

[servognome]

NOOOOO put him back in his wheel, the rat is actually the power supply.

Re:Dump...

[aldoman]

Apart from the fact you will be paying a good $$$ in power costs.

Assuming $1/W/yr (which seems pretty reasonable), and assuming it uses 75W, 24/7, that's $75/year. Or you could get a $15 linksys router which would do it all nearly, and pay $10/yr in power...

Re:Dump...

[tooth]

After work, and instead of the hundred other things that need to be done around the house? Sheesh, that's why I work: to be able to afford good-quality tools that will save me time.

Reminds me of the joke about the mexican and working to buy a bigger boat:

The American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellow fin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.

The Mexican replied, "Only a little while."

The American then asked, "Why didn't you stay out longer and catch more fish?"

The Mexican said, "With this I have more than enough to support my family's needs."

The American then asked, "But what do you do with the rest of your time?"

The Mexican fisherman said, "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siesta with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos, I have a full and busy life."

The American scoffed, "I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing; and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat: With the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats. Eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor; eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then Los Angeles and eventually New York where you will run your ever-expanding enterprise."

The Mexican fisherman asked, "But, how long will this all take?"

To which the American replied, "15 to 20 years."

"But what then?" asked the Mexican. The American laughed and said that's the best part.

"When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions." "Millions?...Then what?" The American said, "Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos."

i doubt it

[gyratedotorg]

i think if it were possible, walmart would already be doing it.

Absolutely

[shoemakc]

Absolutely; They're sold by a company named "used".

Seriously though, do we really need a $100 disposible pc when there are so many functional used machines stacking up in corporate closets?

-Chris

Re:Absolutely

[dougmc]

Seriously though, do we really need a $100 disposible pc when there are so many functional used machines stacking up in corporate closets?

1) All PCs are disposable. Even your $4000 server. After all, a 10 year old $4000 server often isn't even worth $100 now.

2) To answer your question, it's a matter of labor costs. To make those corporate used machines usable, they need to be checked (half probably have at least one part broken), disks erased and a new OS installed. Once you consider the laber involved in doing this, it's not quite so cheap. To make matters worse, even if all the computers came from the same office, odds are good that each one is different from the others. Yes, a company may get the same box for every employee, but over time the favored boxes change, and so the back room is full of all kinds of old boxes. And let's hope these old boxes have enough RAM -- because buying old RAM for old boxes will cost more than an entire new box, including new RAM.

I've generally upgraded my PCs as time went on, part by part, and the old parts would accumulate in the garage. Occasionally, I'd take the old parts, and put together a PC for the relatives or friends who needed one. This worked, but I spent many many hours on it, often rememebering after many hours of frustration why I replaced that piece of hardware out -- because it was flakey! (yes, I do try to label things, but it does slip through the cracks.) And then once I gave it out, I had to support it. I may not do Windows very often, and maybe I didn't even put Windows on the machine at all, but often they end up with Windows, and so I end up supporting that.

Ultimately, it turned out to be not worth it. Now I just give stuff to Goodwill -- somebody else can deal with it. If I want my relative to have a computer, I'll give them $200 and let them buy one from Frys, already built. They even come with some tech support :) (Now, maybe if they're my favorite uncle or something, I might set them up with a computer. But I'll probably buy many of the parts news, just because it's easier than dealing with my old stuff.)

easy

[GoofyBoy]

Get a 486 for $20. eg -
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&cate gory=51096&item=5133469694&rd=1

Install;
http://www.ipt.ntnu.no/~knutb/linux486/linux486.ht ml

My 8 year old pc runs W2K, in your face!

[gelfling]

My IBM PC300PL is worth about 100 bucks. It's got 288MB, a 40GB drive, a 40XCDRW, an Intel P3-450 and a free Ethernet card even though it's already built in to the MoBo. The problem is NOT NOT NOT NOT the hardware it's that Steve Balmer wants to sell you a PC that needs at least twice the hardware as that. If MS just gave us a secure efficient version of W2K we could all have 100 dollar PCs.

Let's try here...

[bhtooefr]

There might be outdated components, $20 case WITH 300W PSU combos, and some PC Chips crap, but it still falls under electrically safe... We're going to use NewEgg numbers, and not include shipping.

Case: MGE ATX case w/350W PSU $10 (one day special) (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?des cription=11-171-037&depa=1)
Mobo: PC Chips Socket A mobo $26 (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?des cription=13-185-010&depa=1)
CPU: Athlon 1.33GHz $41 (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?des cription=19-103-156&depa=1)
RAM: Rosewill 128MB DDR $21 (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?des cription=20-223-007&depa=1)
HDD: Maxtor 40GB $45.50 (one day special) (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?des cription=22-140-133&depa=1)

We'll stop it here. We're using SHIT components, and we've got $143.50, without shipping, IDE cables, CD-ROM drive, etc., etc., and using one day specials.

It's possible, but not DIY.

Re:Let's try here...

[bhtooefr]

How 'bout you actually get a CPU that fits the mobo? It'll take a Pentium II, Slot 1 Pentium III, or a Socket 370-Slot 1 converter with Socket 370 P3.

32MB DDR RAM? WTF? DDR won't work on that board, I'm sure!

Also, this'll be USED components. That won't work. This needs to be all NEW components.

Re:Let's try here...

[Tyler Eaves]

Uh, no.

32MB of RAM? Are you *kidding* me? Even my minimal setup (X.Org + Fluxbox 0.9 + Firefox 1.0 + rxvt) is using 221MB as reported by free, with one instance of each running. (Not counting caches, buffers, etc). I'd consider 256MB the bare mimumum, MAYBE 192 in an emergency, but X alone uses 59MB. 32MB might have been enough to run XFree 3.x and fvwm or windowmaker, but it just doesn't come close for even a semi-modern desktop.

(I'm running Slackware 10.0 btw)

Newegg shopping

[rincebrain]

$26 - PCChips "M811LU" KT266A Chipset Motherboard for AMD Socket A
$41 - AMD Athlon 1.33 GHz, 266MHz FSB, 256K Cache Processor - OEM
$10.75 - POWMAX 320W Power Supply for Intel and AMD systems Model "VP-320ATX"
$14.50 - Artec Black 56X CDROM, Model CHM-56, Retail

= $102.25, ignoring hard drive or anything else.

So no, probably not.

Re:No

[AndyChrist]

Only if you want to run today's bloated software (even open source), which as far as word processing goes doesn't do much now that a well-developed product 10 or 12 years ago didn't.

A 100 dollar computer, hell a 50 dollar computer doesn't seem out of reach if it doesn't have to run all of today's windows and linux apps, but only has to be capable of running more svelte applications which do the same things.

Sounds like a Best Buy/Comp USA employee...

[beejay54]

Ahh yes. Word processing, better get a top of the line box for that. Maybe set up a striped array, dual displays, and a couple of gigs of RAM minimum. Oh and you'll need to buy the latest version of M$ Office, oh and make sure you get the 'professional' version, cause the other versions don't have the advanced features you'll need, like 'undo'. Oh and did I mention there is a manufacturers rebate included in the price, so you'll have to pay $500 at the checkout today but if you fill out the forms immaculately you should get a rebate for the remaining $400 sometime next year. Thanks for shopping with us!

Re:Sounds like a Best Buy/Comp USA employee...

[gcaseye6677]

Don't forget the Best Buy Profit Protection Plan. Oh, I mean the Product Protection Plan, silly me. It's only 60% of the purchase price and covers almost nothing, but you wouldn't want that thing to break down now would you?

Re:Sounds like a Best Buy/Comp USA employee...

[Caseyscrib]

Homer: Umm ... I guess I'll take that one.
Salesman: Well, do you need a paperweight? 'Cause if you buy
that machine, that's all you're going to have, an
expensive paperweight.
Homer: Well, a paperweight would be nice, but what I really
need is a computer. How about that one? [points to
a second machine]
Salesman: That technology is three months old. Only suckers
buy out-of-date machines. You're not a sucker, are
you sir?
Homer: Heavens no!
Salesman: Oh good, because if you were, I'd have to ask you to
leave the store.
Homer: I just need something to receive email.
Salesman: [whistles] You'll need a top-of-the-line machine for
that. [shows Homer a top-of-the-budget machine]
That's the same computer astronauts use to do their
taxes.
Homer: I was an astronaut.
Salesman: Of course you were.
-- "The Computer Wore Menace Shoes"

% Homer looks at the price tag -- $5,000 -- and does a spit-take
% (first drinking a cup of coffee so he'll have something to spit).
% Assured by the sales man that this machine "is the best computer in
% the world and always will be," Homer agrees to the deal, running his
% deed through a scanner to take out his fifth mortgage.
%
% Homer drags his new toy home behind the car.

Homer: Hey Lisa! Check out my new computer!
Lisa: Dad! You shouldn't drag that around!
Homer: [laughs] That's right, top-of-the-line.
[the car hits large pothole, Homer bangs his head on the
roof of the car]
Stupid pothole. Don't worry, head. The computer will do
our thinking now.

Ok this kinda bothers me.

[headbulb]

"PCs are not selling to the lower end of the population in China and India. People buying machines there are relatively affluent. So...should the prices be lower? Not really. Until government and situational factors reduce piracy...those people...don't pay," Ballmer said. (article clipping)

Now an open letter to Ballmer
Ballmer

Shouldn't people in the lower end of the population spend their money on something a little more worthwhile then a computer.
Maybe just maybe they could spend that money on their family Before purchasing such a luxury item as a computer. Of course I am not going to be naive and say they don't need a computer for some reason. But to say that I want money from the lower end of the China/India population is selfish, Specially when they have better things to spend it on..

I don't do business with your company on those rash comments. I get by without using your software. Sorry if you feel that I am not being fare.

Not saying I haven't pirated your software before, instead of attacking me you're attacking someone who couldn't even pay you if they wanted to is just harsh. Oh and by the way I used your software to learn about and then go into computers so in a indirect way your company benefitted from it.. So the very thing that you are against has kept your company afloat, by customer awareness.

I no longer use any pirated software from your company. I get by with alternate platforms (Mac, Linux)

Daniel

Not for under $200

[lothar97]

I'm going to be really bold, and say that right now, no this cannot be done for under $200. You specified that all components must be new. That means you'll need:

power supply motherboard
CPU
CPU fan
CD drive
RAM
hard drive
case

You can get cheap motherboards with attached video/sound/LAN. You can technically build the PC without a floppy drive or CD/DVD burner to save more money. Looking for the lowest prices around (via Froogle), for new parts, you'll find:

motherboard-- Asus A7V8X-X, $48
CPU-- AMD Sempron 2200, $45
CPU fan-- Anything, $5
CD drive-- $15
RAM-- DDR-266 256 MB PC-2100, $40
hard drive-- Samsung 40GB HDD, $45
case-- $29, includes 300W power supply

Grand total: $227 (not including tax/shipping/hassle of ordering from a bunch of places)

Some stores, depending upon where you live, have some really decent deals on packaged systems. I'm in San Diego, and my favorite Chips and Memory (yes, I hate their frames too), has a nice package for $239.

AMD Sempron 2200
256MB RAM
80GB Hard Drive(7200RPM)
52X CD-RW
Onboard AGP (Up to 32 MB) and Sound & Game Adapter
Built-in LAN and Fax/Modem Module
52X CDRW (Yes CDRW Included)
1.44MB Floppy Disk Drive
Med Tower ATX Case, 300W UL/CE approved ATX power supply
1 Year Parts and Labor Warranty

To get the price lower, you'll need a used hard drive, CPU, memory, or motherboard. Then you might squeeze in closer to $150.

Case? What Case?

[colonslashslash]

Even for word processing, you will need a decent size ram, hard drive, motherboard, ethernet port, case.

Cases are for whimps! ;)

Re:Case? What Case?

[L0stm4n]

I dont need no stinking case

I was bored one day....

Re:Cheap PC?

[ibullard]

Unfortunately, the total cost of an Xbox for use as a Linux desktop is:

Xbox port to USB converter - $8 x 2 = $16
Xbox off Ebay - $120 (seems to be average going price)
Xbox VGA box - $65
Renting MechAssault - $7 ? haven't rented in a while so I could be wrong here.

That makes it $208 and it assumes that the Xbox can be modded to boot Linux without buying a chip and you can find the right version of MechAssault.

Mind you, that's a hell of a lot closer than you'll get with almost anything else.

But he'll want one that can run Longhorn

[Elwood P Dowd]

And that's a whole hell of a lot harder.

Linksys shows it can be done

[geg81]

You can get a Linksys wireless router for about $70. It's a machine with 16M of memory, 4M of flash, and a 125 or 200MHz chip. It also comes with a hub, a wired Ethernet, WiFi, and a power supply. So, that shows you can ship a lot of hardware for fairly little money.

Replace WiFi with a simple VGA controller and give it a couple of USB ports and a little more flash instead of the hub and you would end up, at roughly the same price, with a usable personal computer that could run a light X11 desktop and some useful apps (browser, word processor, etc.). If you add a CF slot, people even have removable storage.

Another choice is the standalone file server appliance, also for under $100 AFAIK; it already has the USB port and also runs Linux.

And some of the game consoles also show it can be done, if you get the volume high enough.

Re:Of course it is possible!

[Deorus]

Even better! Scrap the P4 and replace with a Celly, way cheaper!

The embedded soundcard is an ac97, supported by the mainstream Linux kernel;
The ethernet chip is a sis900, also supported under the mainstream Linux kernel;
I don't know if the embeded video card is supported by X.org (XF86 did not support it 2 years ago), but if not, one can still stick with VESA;

Of course that I am talking about my board, which is nolonger on the site (the closest one I found there is this one).

Seriously, those boards are wonderful for workstations!

Re:A computer for half the price of Windows?

[EnderWiggnz]

it can be done.

the problem, is you're talking about a 300MHZ Geode, and a 8GB HD, with 64MB RAM, and an integrated video/sound/ethernet.

but, it can be done, and it can be done "profitably"

Re:No

[Cromac]

Frys sells PC's for as little as $179 (no monitor) that is more than enough for word processing and enough for the vast majority of games. From memory, that PC was a 2.x ghz Celeron, 128 meg ram, integrated sound, video, NIC, 40 gig HD, CD-ROM. Not a bad system at all except for some games.

You may not be able to find a decent PC for $100 today but it won't be long until it will go for $100.

Balmer

[Traa]

Balmer wants a $100 computer.
You would think he would be able to afford something better then that...Microsoft having problems?

;-)

Trying to answer the question that was asked...

[rewt66]

Most of the answers are along the lines of, "I can't find the parts at that price in this catalog or that store". I don't think that was the question.

Some other comments have focused on whether what Balmer said was reasonable. Interesting topic, but that isn't the question either.

Some other comments have said, "Yes, get a used one." That still isn't the question.

The question is: Could we spec out a PC that, in volume, could sell for $100 and run Linux?

An interesting twist on the question: Can we consider it "a PC" (for purposes of this question) if it doesn't have an Intel-compatible processor? Say, a StrongARM CPU? (Note that the criterion was that it run Linux; well, Linux runs on a wide variety of CPUs.)

Re:Trying to answer the question that was asked...

[mcrbids]

Yes, I know the software has value when I sit down and type with it, but tangible property will always have more physical value than intellectual property, simply because there's a physical representation of the money spent.

Except that the purpose of the hardware is to run the software. It's not "We have the hardware, now what are we going to run on it?", it's more like "What do I have to buy to get NNN?".

The intellectual property is not an afterthought - it's the central point. Case in point - at numerous points in the past (including the present) you can/could buy hardware far better designed for day-to-day use than the X86. But, the X86 reigns supreme.

Intel has twice tried to shift away from X86 towards other hardware with numerous benefits over x86, only to bomb twice, despite massive advertisement, promotion, and spending.

Why, you might ask?

Oh, because those other platforms did a sucky job running software developed on x86. That Intellectual Property is what counts! Without it, the hardware is worth next to nothing!

End of the MS tax?

[EmbeddedJanitor]

That's going to be a big pain for MS.

In the old days of mini-computers, sellers would charge more for the minicomputer version of software than for the PC version, even when less people were using the PC version (ie. there was no volume discount argument). The reason they could get away with this was that people who'd paid for a $10k computer would balk less at paying more for the software.

Turning this around, while MS charges a fraction of the cost of a new PC, people are prepared to see it as a relatively insignificant expense (eg here in NZ, I'd pay probably NZD1K retain for a computer (inc monitor etc and WinXP)) and WinXP is only say NZD200 of this.

If however the computer price came down to say NZD400, of which WinXP was half that, then I'd have a much harder time brushing the WinXP cost under the carpet.

Lower PC costs will force lower software prices.

Now I have RTFA, but Ballmer probably has it in his head that people will pay NZD1K for a computer and if the hardware costs only NZD200 then he can put NZD800 in his pocket. People are not as dumb as that.

Re:End of the MS tax?

[Dragoon412]

I would think that the success of Dell, Gateway and the like prove that a large number of people are that stupid.

A small-time shop, or independant builder, can pay retail and warehouse parts on components (read: NewEgg, GameVE, etc.) build the same PC that one of the major OEMs are selling for $2000 for about $800, add WinXP Home ($70, OEM) and Works Suite 2003 ($50), throw a 50% markup on top of that, and make a very nice profit for myself, as well as make the buyer quite happy with the $500+ savings.

I can only imagine how cheaply I could do this if I had Dell's volume discounts on parts, I'd be making a killing.

Re:End of the MS tax?

[Allen Zadr]

As an IT director, I buy Dell and Gateway because of component compatability testing. I know, out of the box, that everything will work together properly. There won't be an off-brand network card that has problems with the off-brand (or Intel Embedded) video card. Or a sound card that doesn't work when Direct3D is initialized.

Yes, I do have the ability to do it myself, but too many times I've ended up re-buying parts trying to figure out some silly incompatability.

Obviously, this is less of an issue now than 5 years ago, but it is still a concern of mine. I guess, to me, it's worth the price.

Re:End of the MS tax?

[EmbeddedJanitor]

Uou entirely miss my point. The user (and, by proxy, Dell, Gateway etc) see that they're selling a $2000 computer of which WinXP is only say 10% of the cost. In the case of the $800 computer, WinXp is only 20% of the cost. It is hardly worth fighting MS (by switching to Linux etc) to reduce the cost by 10%.

If, however, the cost of the computer came down to say $300 of which $200 was software, the picture changes completely. Now by switching to say Linux you'd be able to get your computer for a third of the cost.

For a lot of lower income countries (India, China, etc), the difference between a $1800 and $2000 price tag is academic, it is still too expensive. For an IT department buying computers 10% here or there is not a huge deal. However a $100 computer is obviously far more easy for the lower income earner to buy than a $300 computer. Similarly a 60%+ saving will make a huge difference to the IT department.

Ballmer must be nuts! A low cost computer will kill MS.

Re:End of the MS tax?

[EmbeddedJanitor]

Economics is an academic occupation that does not reflect the real world.

The simple truth of low income countries is that when they are faced with unaffordable medical systems (including medicines and medical procedures etc) they simply die.

Re:End of the MS tax?

[NotoriousQ]

I am (part-time) internal developer, a.k.a sysadmin's worst nightmare. I can tell you that the dell systems I work wiht have almost as many incompatibilities as any of the machines that I have built. Plug in a USB key, and they freeze. Update an SDK, and they freeze. Not often, but just as often as my own machines.

Incompatabilities exist, and they do not go away. The only thing one can do is to do research to minimize them. Dell does it for you -- great -- you do not spend your own people doing this. On my own machine, I will do my own research and not buy Dell.

Re:This is easy.

[Paladin128]

We could do this today with no problem. The key is economy of scale. The Via EPIA platforms would be ideal, but they are too damn expensive.

Honestly, if some inexpensive Taiwanese motherboard manufacturer wanted to, they could do a 1ghz C3 EPIA platform, and really cut it down. One IDE channel. No floppy, serial, parallel, or PS/2 ports. Kill IrDA support. Basically, give it only the following:

1x VGA
1x IDE
4x USB
1x audio line out

The CPU and RAM chips could be soldered onto the board. Bundle it with a cheap mass-market OEM hard drive, a case with a 40W power brick, and you've got a PC.

Rather than VIA, one could use Transmeta Crusoe or AMD Geode. This could be done for $100, but the margins would be razor-thin. Hell, I'd pay $100 for one of these sans hard drive with a smaller power supply -- I'm a big fan of LTSP.

Re:You know, we did word processing before...

[Reziac]

[laughing] My first PC was a 2-floppy, 2MHz XT, with Herc mono graphics. WordPerfect 5.0 was crisp, even running off a floppy. After a dedicated word blender, it was heaven. And when I replaced that with a 12MHz 286 (also with Herc mono, but it had a HD, and WP5.1 along with various other apps of the day), it was, like, WOW!! Everything ran like the wind. Well, Ventura Publisher 2.0 took a while to load, but it ran fine. I still have the 286, and in a pinch... it still does everything I can't live without.

Nowadays... we struggle to get decent performance out of machines THOUSANDS of times faster than those relics.

BTW I'm writing this on a P3-550, somewhat slower than the average of what's now found on the curb. (Methinks I need to look at a better class of curbside. :)

But I still use WP5.1 every day. :D

What's wrong with you geeks?

[vicnot]

Look, a sub $101 computer isn't rocket science. There are landfills full of say 500Mhz and below machines...

A 400Mhz machine, even a 166Mhz machine is suffice to run lots of stuff...

Face it, we all use to use them...

A 400 Mhz machine with 128mb RAM is quite a lot of machine for what the average person wants it for:

1. Word processing
2. Calculator
3. Web browser
4. Lousy paint program

A majority of cycles are wasted with the user sitting there..

Here's an old Dell that meets your lofty needs :) $99
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem &cate gory=51110&item=5133297107&rd=1

For $200 you could get the keyboard, mouse and LCD monitor all in the nice form of a portable computer. Be it 500Mhz or so, Linux will run just fine.

What the hell does everyone need a 1Ghz or 2Ghz spec'd machine for? It produces tons of heat, typically noise too and eats up tons of electric with that huge power supply you all want...

Re:A computer for half the price of Windows?

[suckmysav]

AMD bought Geode some time ago, and they are soon to release a new device codenamed "Emma" with 128Mb RAM and a 10Gb HDD.

The price point is expected to be $185, but that includes Windows CE embedded and cut down versions of Word, Excel, IE and Outlook.

Who knows what the price point would be if they had have used Embedded Linux, firefox and OO instead.

Re:No

[djdavetrouble]

I saw an apple 2 gs go for 35 bux on ebay last month.. bastard sniped me at the last minute. It came with a monitor, 5.25 and 3.5" disks, a dot matrix printer, and a box of software. That computer can do word processing, spreadsheets, AND play hundreds of classic games! (aztek, threshold, wizardry, wolfenstein, karateka, sigh I love apple ]['s)

We sell pentium 2 and 3 cpu computers to employees for $75 at my company when they get swapped out. These computers are able to run all modern business software, browsers and email. They just don't have the speed and snappiness that we are all used to. Everyone wants flat panels and small form factor PC's these days, so they just sell of these old computers and do some wacky accounting magic to write it off or depreciate it or god knows what.

New $100 computer? Only if you are a manufacturer. Used $100 computer? totally do-able.

flawed question

[barchibald]

Hey:

Its great to ask this question, and I'm all for cheap hardware. But...given that hardware must be manufactured, consume raw materials etc. I would expect that the floor cost for hardware should _never_ go as low as the floor cost of software - especially after you get past some R&D point for both.

Can you say "monopoly"? It seems much clearer to me that software ought to have some fully commodified components and that the OS ought to be that component. Given that the world of software has (intelligently) landed on layered architectures, we'd expect to be spending money at the higher layers and have ever increasing commodification at the lower layers. Again...can you say monopoly?

Now...I"m not arguing that hardware should NOT fall under this rule, but....well....some costs associated with hardware are a given, and those costs will forever be higher than the "given" costs of software.

Just my 2cents.

Re:You know, we did word processing before...

[archen]

My first computer was a .00001Khz Royal Typewriter. It had two keys, a one and a zero. If you wanted to reformat the disk, you dipped the paper in white-out =P

Corporate refurb?

[gliph]

I know there are a million of these sites out there, but I've actually purchased stuff from these guys before (besides the fact they are local for me, no shipping!) Here's one for $100, Dell Tower that's a P3 550, 128mb, and a 10gig drive. They even have a _6_ month warranty for any issues that may arise. You can also upgrade the memory for another 25 or so. That'll run a lot of flavor's of Linux for CHEAP.

Sure, using cost-reduced 5-year-old technology

[davidwr]

$100 PC? Sure, we can do it:

• A store in the UK has a motherboard for £18.99 ($35). It includes sound, video, USB 2.0, and ethernet, plus the usual stuff.
  
• Outpost.com offers 128MB of PC2100 RAM for $20.
  
• Ebay has a bunch of 4.3GB IDEs with a "buy it now" price of $7. Let's assume new would be twice that at $14 if we could get it.
  
• A case + power will run you at least $22.
  
• I found floppy drives for $6.50.
  Throw in a network cable for half a buck's worth of parts.
  

Total cost BEFORE cd-burner/dvd-player*:
Motherboard: $35
128MB RAM: $20
4.3GB HD: $14
Case w/ power supply: $22
Floppy drive: $6.50
Ethernet cable: $0.50
Total: $98
Linux: Free, in both senses of the word
Look on Steve Ballmer's Face when he reads this on /.: Priceless

Um, Microsoft, when you get the license cost of Windows down to $1.99, you too can play this game. :)

*internet cafe's don't need CD players on every machine.

sure its possible...

[3seas]

plenty of tossed out systems running plenty fast enough to run something like AROS - Amiga Research Operating System

Its all about a small and efficient OS to bring life back to old hardware. Neither of which linux or windows is.

And it even has standardized user friendly level IPC, of which neither windows or linux yet has.

But AROS is currently lacking developers contributing to it.... and it is FOSS...

$112 Or bust.

[Mulletproof]

The Modded Xbox is almost a viable solution, but for a more ground up design:

$18 - Celeron 700MHz 66MHz 128K FCPGA CPU OEM (socket 370)
$25 - ASUS MEW-AM Mainboard Socket 370 supporting Intel Celeron 300~533+ Onboard sound/video
$40 - 1 512mb Stick of PC100 Ram $58 if 2 256mb sticks are required.
$3 - Encore - 10/100 VIA Chipset NIC
$24 - COMP-USA ATX Case w 250W Power Supply.
$2 - Generic heatsink

Total = $112

I thought it important to load up on the RAM as compensation for the trailing edge CPU. Granted, you won't be playing Doom 3 on this machine, but it'll do most anything you want in terms of office support, though I'm not entirely sure how linux compatible the hardware is. Still, a decent machine. Prices include shipping, unless I missed something.

All prices courtesy of Pricewatch.com

Re:This is easy.

[barawn]

One IDE channel. No floppy, serial, parallel, or PS/2 ports. Kill IrDA support.

The problem is that virtually none of this saves money.

Legacy support costs virtually nothing. The only expensive parts are the connectors (the interfaces are all integrated: if you want IDE at *all*, you basically get everything else) and you can just put them on a pin header if you want.

IrDA, serial, and PS/2 are all the same thing - parallel, floppy, and even IDE are usually supported on one chip. They're so cheap that there's no point not to put them on. For one thing, they're useful enough to the people testing the board that they earn their keep just that way.

The CPU and RAM chips could be soldered onto the board. Bundle it with a cheap mass-market OEM hard drive, a case with a 40W power brick, and you've got a PC.

RAM prices fluctuate too much for this to be succesful. CPU integration makes sense, although again, the price drops quickly enough for you to be left with a platform that's far overpriced in just a few months. Keep in mind, that's one of the main reasons you don't integrate the CPU and memory - price concerns.

For one thing, in the time it takes the system to get to market, the board will be a bit overpriced/underpowered for its price point. Systems that have socketed CPUs/memory are viable on the market for a long enough period for people to sell off their supplies.

The way you make a cheap motherboard is to only use the integrated peripherals in the southbridge, and then volume, volume, volume.

Re:A computer for half the price of Windows?

[EnderWiggnz]

yeh... i saw that...

i'm _certain_ that the production price on that is about $70 for the hardware. plus another 50-or-so for the msft tax. still leaves a nice heatlhy 35% gross margin.

via is really giving the geode line a run for its money though, and i think that theyve got the better SoC tech right now.

although, i think that amd's manufacturing advantage could crush via.

the real shame here is transmeta - they would a perfect fit for this type of a device, but they're:
1) too expensive.
2) financially insolvent.

and as for the pricepoint for the linux... its actually amazing - sometimes, the linux devices are more expensive, for identical hardware, and have a higher GPM.

really though, these low-end devices are more than enough for 90% of the computing publics needs.

Re:This is easy.

[Paladin128]

Via already puts the CPU package on the mobo; it saves PCB space and power leakage. We're not going for a powerful system; just a cheap one.

Fair enough about your statement with the RAM chips, although if bought in big enough batches, stuff like PC2100 DDR is already absurdly cheap and isn't fluctuating too much.

And yes, you do save on the connectors. If the volume is high enough, you can design a southbridge that doesn't have the legacy support. Or, you could go the route that nVidia went with the nForce3 -- no southbridge. Just one chipset with everything integrated. With no legacy stuff, that just means you need an ethernet MAC, and audio CODEC, IDE (or better, SATA -- fewer traces), video, memory controller, USB and FSB. That's it -- it can be a pretty small and cheap chip. Use PCI express for everything -- you only need like 16 rails -- 8 for the video, 2 for the SATA and 6 for the gigabit NIC. Or better yet -- no PCI type bus -- just have everything tightly integrated with local like nVidia does thier ethernet, and offer open-source drivers.

The board could also be small with no legacy stuff -- smaller than ITX form factor.

Re:A computer for half the price of Windows?

[EnderWiggnz]

i can run firefox successfully with 32MB flash, and 64MB Ram. This includes baseOS, X, ICA Client, Terminal Client, RDP, and network and printing funcitonality.

it runs slow as molasses on a Geode, and firefox is exceedingly slow to start up on the Geode, but runs "ok" once its up and running. If you give me an 800MHZ VIA, things work much more gooder.

OpenOffice? its a bloated piece of crap. work needs to be done on that front. I dont think that i can get it going in less than 256MB.

Why x86?

[EmbeddedJanitor]

The only reason to use x86 is Windows. If you're going to use WinCE or Linux then you may as well use some other smaller/faster/cheaper/lower wattage CPU like an ARM, MIPS or SH4 or something.

Considering that the weight (if one could call it that) of WinCE is behind ARM, the use of WinCE for this product is pretty dopey.

These Geode tablets have been promoted since Nat Semi owned Geode (a few years back). Geode has pretty much gone nowhere and does not look like it will change. I'm quite suprised that AMD didn't rather put their effort into their MIPS device or license ARM and make an ARM device.

It is interesting to note that AMD is one of very few major CPU vendors that does not use ARM for their mobile/low-power 32-bit stuff.

Re:You know, we did word processing before...

[_Hellfire_]

My first PC was also a 2-floppy Herc Mono XT. I had a 4.77MHz version with a turbo switch to get it to 7MHz. I remember running First Choice for word processing and Dr Halo for graphics. DOS 3.3 with NDos for long file names and other cool stuff. Ahhh the days.

I also remember getting my first hard drive fitted to that thing. Connor Peripherals 30Mb and I thought that was all the space in the world. I thought it was way cool that I could boot off the drive and install all my favourite games - F15 Strike Eagle II, Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF), and Zeliard. (Not to mention all the other small games like spacewar, elevator, frogger, yahtzee and boulder dash). I also coded in Turbo Pascal 6.

Like you I was in love with that machine, and that machine taught me most of the basics of computing.
It worries me somewhat that the technicians who are coming through the ranks now are not even aware of the heritage of computing, and have no inkling of anything past a GUI and a mouse pointer. Obviously the older readers will point out that before the XT there were things like TRS-80 and CP/M (neither of which I've had the privilege of using (although I would dearly of loved to have had that experience)) but all I'm saying is that computing around that time in the early to mid eighties (and before that of course) was raw and unfettered by the masses of clueless gumbies and spyware and spam.

I for one feel very privileged to have seen that era of computing and I can only hope that some of todays young geeks may stumble across an old dinosaur and decide to play with it to further their knowledge.

Re:Computers are FREE

[servognome]

You wouldn't happen to wear a green jacket with a bunch of question marks on it would you?

Dell is the low price builder

[rednip]

I don't know which Dell and Gateway your talking about, but the Dell and Gateway which I know introduced competitive pricing to the PC market. They gobbled up a large percentage with aggressive pricing, 'old school' large manufacturers and white box manufactures alike have had a hard time competeting with them.

I don't know where you are getting your prices from (maybe 1996) but Dell will sell a perfectly cabable machine for less than $500, with a 15" flat panel monitor!. Ala carte, a 15" flat panel will cost one $200 by itself. Personally, I still build my own, but when someone asks for help choosing a PC, I just point them at Dell.

Pah, you're wasting money.

[Tatarize]

$21 Rosewill 184-Pin 128MB DDR PC-3200, Model RW400/128 - Retail
$26 PCChips "M811LU" KT266A Chipset Motherboard for AMD Socket A CPU -RETAIL
$10.75 POWMAX 320W Power Supply for Intel and AMD systems Model "VP-320ATX" -RETAIL
$41 AMD Athlon 1.33 GHz, 266MHz FSB, 256K Cache Processor - OEM

Total: $98.75

Quick notes, I didn't buy a case so don't step on it. Also, I didn't buy a heatsink or fan so it'll only run for about 12 seconds. Also, you need to boot off the lan. Also, you won't be able to see anything, and not because the processor poofed, but also it has no video card.


For full good system, I did it once for about 220 bucks. Harddrives and cases pah! Who needs them. My system will turn on for $98.75!

computers in India

[humbads]

I was in India over the summer, and I visited one of my cousins who sells PCs from a small shop in Bangalore. Most people over there buy $200-$400 PCs, because that equates to 10,000 to 20,000 rupees. Farmers and laborers (75% of Indian population) make 50 rupees per day, so only the upper class city dwellers can afford PCs. Still, 25% of 1 billion is 250 million people. Would you pay $100-$200 for software on a $200-$400 PC? No. So free or pirated software rules in India, and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.

It's not reasonable for Ballmer to expect Indians (or others in the developing world) to pay $100 for a copy of XP, unless he can magically make the average Indian earn $40,000 per year rather than $3000. Also, keep in mind that in India, electricity costs more and a UPS is mandatory, so funds available to purchase hardware and software are less.

Even at $200-$400, hardware costs far outweigh labor costs in India. In the US, computers under $200 are not even worth the time to sell them or fix them, given that any qualified PC tech costs $60-$80/hour. So all the sub-$200 class PC components get junked.

This leads to an interesting business opportunity. If there was an efficient means of accumulating all the junk components, they could be shipped by sea container to India, where PC techs could sort out and re-sell the working parts. It costs about $4000 to ship a 20x10x10 ft. container to India from the US. So, you'd need to collect twenty $200 PCs or the equivalent to cover shipping costs. Since once the parts get to India, labor is almost free, the only other cost is gathering the components together in the US. A large corporation might have the means to do this cheaply, however. Maybe large corps should partner with Indian salvage companies to get rid of their old computers. They might make some money rather than paying to have them disposed, and also, Indians could get their $100 PCs for checking Hotmail.

Piracy was an intended business strategy

[arbi]

In the Ballmer article it states:
> But lower prices have become part of Microsoft's strategy for gaining market share in developing nations.

For over a decade, in the early years of Microsoft, they have been making piracy of their OS and Office software easy. This was a vital and intended strategy for them in order to firmly establish a marketshare dominance.

When the average user gets accustomed to (pirated) Microsoft products, this encourages businesses to use Microsoft products since most employees already have the skills in using Microsoft products. Microsoft then proceeds to enforce BUSINESSES to have legal copies of their software while still encouraging private users to pirate their products.

As you can see, their strategy worked. They are basically doing the same thing now with developing nations. And they will be successful unless the respective governments intervene.

Re:This is easy.

[barawn]

Via already puts the CPU package on the mobo; it saves PCB space and power leakage. We're not going for a powerful system; just a cheap one.

The Via systems with integrated CPU chips are more expensive than socketed counterparts, partially for the reasons I stated. They have to make them more expensive because they make less of them - they make less because their shelf life is shorter.

Note that there are two sets of Via integrated CPU boards - there's the Eden set, which exist for homebrew PVR and somewhat of the embedded system market. But they have a higher feature set - this justifies the fact that they're underpowered. There was also an older one which sold disastrously (Syntax is the only one I knew that actually sold it - the S8601MP and similars).

The point is that Via can't expect to sell them very cheap, because if they've got the CPU and memory integrated, then the product depreciates much faster than the board without an integrated CPU. It should also be noted that if you buy the chips in solderable packages, you're buying more specialty parts rather than commodity, though if you're the chip manufacturer, it's not such a big deal.

And yes, you do save on the connectors.

For a company which buys connectors in volume, you save nothing on connectors. Even when I've bought in very small volumes, I've been able to pull DB9s down to under $1 per. In the larger volumes, you can get it much cheaper. In fact, if you make things other than the motherboard, then they're virtually free, as it's just a fluid item. Unless you do it for space concerns, the cost of a DB9 is just too cheap to even bother not putting on. Which is, of course, why it still exists on most things.

One other thing is the fact that the LPC port is very useful for debugging and board testing/prep, as well as hardware monitoring. There's enough of a demand for low-cost motherboards that if you could save money by dropping the legacy ports, you would.

Even the several legacy-free motherboards have the legacy ports on the board.

The board could also be small with no legacy stuff -- smaller than ITX form factor.

You'd be better off, cost wise, sticking with the largest market - micro-ATX. Volume, volume, volume rules all.

If the volume is high enough, you can design a southbridge that doesn't have the legacy support.

That's the problem - it's not the volume that's important, it's the volume*margins - that is, the profit. If you're starting off by saying "this is going to be a super-cheap platform", your margins will start off being thin, and as the platform ages, either the demand falls off, or your margins get thinner as you drop the price. Now, half the problem is you still need to pay for the development cost.

I don't think you're going to see someone come out and design something like this to be cheap. It wouldn't become profitable. We're almost at the point where the commodity items are near that price point as it is.

Basically, I don't think you're going to shave much cost off from any of the methods you're suggesting. You might be able to get it started on a size argument, but I think the small form factor PCs have shown that that design can command a premium, and so they'll charge it.

One other concern that you do fail to note is that the smaller the motherboard, usually the more expensive its design, regardless of how simple it is - you simply crowd the design, and the routing becomes very, very complicated. I have no doubt that the nano-ITX boards took a few iterations to get the signal integrity reliable enough.

I think VIA might do it - but I think you'll see far more of a commodity PC than you would expect. If it's specialty, it's expensive - if it's commodity, you don't have to pay the development, and risk having stock without any demand.

Re:Computers are FREE

[Jeremi]

If we're going to start plugging things, then I'll seize the opportunity and throw in a plug for FreeCycle. FreeCycle is a great way to get a good used computer (or anything else) for zero cost, and also an easy way to clear out all your old junk by giving it away to local people who find it useful. No packing or shipping hassle, since the recipient typically will come by to pick it up, and you'll earn more karma that way then you ever will posting to Slashdot. :^)

Re:You know, we did word processing before...

[HohlerMann]

My first computer was a rock. To partition, you dropped it from a cliff.

Re:Word for XBox.

[mabinogi]

That sounds like a great idea!

We could make it boot right up into BASIC with a soothing blue coloured screen if there's no disk there.

2005, the year of LOAD *,8,1

Re:Agree

[zuzulo]

1) Go to budget barebone PC manufacturer like

www.ikonpc.com

or

www.tigerdirect.com

among many others

2) price lowest barebones case that comes *with* mobo, power supply, CPU

3) add hdd and one memory stick (as well as CD player if needed), do not add MS operating system, aftermarket software, video card, sound card, or other overpriced extras

4) pay between $120 and $150 with free shipping

5) recieve components and assemble your ultra low price computer (~2 year out of date)

6) ????

7) profit or something similar

Not quite at that $100 price point, but pretty close these days, and even closer if you are willing to pick slightly less recent CPU, mobo, and memory. And no, i am not an employee or in any way affiliated with these or other barebone PC manufacturers. ;-)

Not sure...lets see how close I can get.

[fireboy1919]

I'm sure it's going to end up being bad, but I'll give it a shot:

First of all, no case. It'll work without one, so I'm not including it in my attempt. Given this, along with the fact that I'm using old, slow and therefore cooler processors, no cooling should be needed.

Second, I'm ignoring labor. If you can put Linux on your machine yourself, you can build it yourself.

Cheapest new CPU I could find was a PII-266 for $6:

Compatible motherboard Intel 440BX for $10

Lets go with a good 64MB of ram. This one uses EDO, which is $8.
Then we add a a 4MB AGP video card for $6,
a sound card for $6,
and a 10/100 LAN card for $4.
Power supply for $14.
8x CDROM drive for $9,

At this point, I might add that all of these things actually have free shipping in case you want to do this.

With the exception of power supplies, which are cheap, harddrives go bad the fastest, so people are always buying up the surplus ones. It makes it a lot harder to find old stock that hasn't been sold.

So I'd like to consider it separately. Right now we're at $63.

The cheapest harddrive I could find in 4 minutes of searching (about that for the other stuff) was a 20GB 7200 drive for $30 with shipping.

So...we're done at $93.
You might also have to buy an IDE cable. I was just hoping that the harddrive or the motherboard or the CDRom drive came with one.

Using this same procedure, you can probably get a case for about $20. Same low quality. But why bother with such cheap parts? Keep 'em in a shoebox.

Re:No

[jawtheshark]

Look around for people that bought a new PC. If you're lucky they still have their old one. If you're really lucky, they think it is a piece of crap because it runs so slow.

Case in point, my girlfriend (there goes my /. credibility) bought a P-IV 2.4HT with huge flat-planel screen, DVD burner, 512Meg RAM and I'm surely skipping things. Her brother bought something similar (but slightly lower-spec) at the same time. Now, well, they bought this before she knew me.
So, I find out they didn't throw away the old machine. I ask her to show it to me, expecting a later P-I or even a P-II (it was running slow after all). My eyeballs nearly fell out! The fucking this was a P-III 500MHz, 10Gig harddisk, CD-Burner, 64Meg RAM. You can already guess why this felt slow...

Anyways, a 256Meg RAM stick later (which I always have lying around somewhere) and a 10Euro 10/100NIC later, I have it back up on full-speed. Nice little machine, really...

Oh, and you want to know what she does with her über-PCs? Surf the web, write letters in Word and ehm, burn the occasinal CD. That P-III would have done for the years to come.

So, in the end: look out for people that have bought new PC's and check out what they have in store. Anything from a P-II on is worth collecting. I have made P-II desktops for people without money from spare parts (which I collected from people thowing away "crap machines").

Re:Agree

[Anonymous Coward]

Pfff! I don't need no stinking RAM. I mentally memorize the one and zeros.

$100 PC... and some great old ideas

[j.leidner]

If they sold a $100 computer, I'd like to suggest warming up some great old ideas:

• Why _load_ Firefox/OOffice when you can run it in the ROM? It might run a bit slower, but the perceived responsiveness is often determined by application startup time.
• Why _boot_ a machine at all? I'm ok with developers' machines being booted, since they stay up 27/7 anyway. But a consumer who wants to check something on the Net or write a quick letter can't be bothered to go through a 3-minute boot cycle.
• Also, it can't hurt to modify the hardware slightly so that a LED indicates there are new emails even if the whole box is switched off, to save energy.

I hope I will live to see a real consumer computer that is as much an appliance as a microwave oven.

The only idea that goes a little bit in this direction is modern BIOSes that have a built-in Web browser that doesn't need an OS.

--
Try Nuggets , our SMS search engine. We answer your questions via SMS, across the UK.

Re:$100 PC... and some great old ideas

[yerfatma]

I'm ok with developers' machines being booted, since they stay up 27/7 anyway.

Obviously you work at the same place I do.

Re:$100 PC... and some great old ideas

[saintlupus]

Funny, I've got a machine that was designed just that way, right down to the blinking email LED. It's called an Audrey, it was made by 3com, and it failed miserably in the market.

People want a "real" computer for the same reason that they want "upgradable" computers; futureproofing, whether they need it or not.

--saint

I remember an incident in 1981...

[leonbrooks]

(cue sound of k1dd13z winding mental age estmates up)

...when I worked in a computer store in West Perth called Computer Choice, for a chappie by the name of Ed O'Connor-Smith. After watching him sell a computer, one friend of mine took to calling him Ed O'Conman-Smith which was a tad unfair even though he could indeed sell ice to eskimos or charm a starving baby away from the breast. He once sold a million-dollar mainframe on someone's petty cash.

Ed sold an Osborne 1 to a lady called Pauline Winter (no relation to the actress AFAIK) of Maritana Typing Services, of which I can find no trace on the Web. Pauline had a top-of-the-wozzer Olivetti electric typewriter which would do a steady 75 WPM and had a 16,000 keystroke typeahead buffer. She beat it. Easily.

The Osborne 1 scanned the keyboard in software in its spare time, using its (at the time) grunty 4MHz 8-bit Z80, with pretty much inevitable results. So Pauline brought it back.

Instead of refunding her, Ed upsold her to a KayPro II, which was built like a lab instrument and had a separate microcontroller in the keyboard and guaranteed 3-and-a-half-key rollover. And 400kB 5.25" floppies in place of the shiny new recently-doubled-in-size 192kB floppies in the Osborne, and a full 64kB of RAM in place of the Osborne's 48kB. Your keyboard probably has considerably more storage than everything in the Osborne added together. (-:

Pauline sat in the shop for a few days, using the Kaypro to make sure everything went well. Her typing was like rain on a tin roof, there was no way you could hear individual keystrokes, but the funniest part was watching WordStar.

WordStar is a little priority-driven time-sharing little universe of its own. It had an event loop decades before Bill knackered the one in OS/2. If it has time, it prints stuff. If it doesn't, it at least updates the display decorations. If it has no time for that, it keeps the current text looking good; and if not all of the current text, then the current line, followed by the lines above and below outwards towards the top and bottom of the display. And if not even the current line, it echoes the characters as you type them, and the last-ditch response is to just store the characters and echo nothing.

With Pauline at the keyboard, WordStar was able to echo two characters out of 3 if it was lucky. Printing happened for a few minutes some time after the start of coffee break, and for maybe 25 minutes of a half-hour lunch break, and for many hours after she'd finished for the day. She was typing at least as fast as a top-shelf Ricoh daisywheel could, and that's fast. She started with a blank data floppy every day (two drives, one for programs and one for data), and usually filled about 3/4 of a 400kB floppy by close of trade, so I'd guess that was a sustained 110-120 WPM.

Cheap PC, or more efficient setup?

[CrazyWingman]

It's interesting the way a lot of these threads are going here. A lot of what I'm seeing is, "Well, if you just need a word processor, then..." This makes me wonder if we should be focusing some effort in a slightly different place.

Maybe what we need is an operating system that "just does" word processing, web surfing, and e-mail. It would be a bit of a throwback to the old days of typewriters and workstations, but was that era really wrong?

Sun seems to be trying to encourage one mode of doing this - the blade terminal. But, I think there are a lot of companies who are very worried about taking such a big step toward this setup. Not only do you have to spend a bit of time getting the networking for that system right, but if you don't like it later, you suddenly have all of this hardware that is completely useless to you.

I think that if you could get the same setup running on the x86 machines that are already in place in most companies, and also show them how they could buy cheaper versions, that would still work perfectly if they ever chose to go back to their Windoze platform, then you would really have something killer.

I'm sure that there are now a few zealots screaming, "This is exactly what XYZ linux does!" I'd argue, though, that even linux in its current state is a bit more than what is needed. I'm really talking about a very non-general purpose machine that literally only does word-processing, web browsing, and e-mail. And, of course, the qualifier here is that it does these three exceptionally well and extremely intuitively. I think there are ways to start with a linux distro and write some extra application code to make this system happen, but it's not there yet.

Sigh, back to my current Windoze business life. Counting the hours until I can get home to my nice, debian-loaded UltraSPARC. :)