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BBC Magazine's Search-Engine Shootout

An anonymous reader writes "On BBC Online's excellent Magazine, there is a shootout between Google, MSN, Yahoo! and Ask Jeeves. Search tests were conducted on five criteria: an obscure fact; multiple meanings of "raleigh"; speed; and current time in Sydney. Yahoo! is the fastest of the lot. Google has the cleanest interface. MSN Search fared worst of all. Jeeves is the apparent winner for features like related search. (Author claims to be a Google nut.)" This may be the nicest thing anyone's ever said about Jeeves.

187 comments

  1. How long until relevance engines are commodities? by Ars-Fartsica · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Within the next two years max. That spells trouble for Google and its shareholders, who still place a very high premium on what is quickly becoming a common service. Fortunately for Google insiders, they should be able to cash out long before the regular dopes in investorland figure this out.

  2. If you can't think of anything interesting to say by Noksagt · · Score: 1, Informative

    and want karma, just steal it from the previous thread which discusses this article.

    oops--cynical mode off. If you are interested in the article, please seach through the above thread for other interesting comments & so that your own comments can be even more interesting or insightful

  3. No Teoma =( by mg2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Granted Teoma is operated by AskJeeves, but it's hardly the same engine, but it's too bad that they left it out. I think it's one of the better searches out there -- it tops MSN's new search, easily.

    1. Re:No Teoma =( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you read the article, friend, just about any search service tops MSN's search.

    2. Re:No Teoma =( by DeltaSigma · · Score: 1

      Sadly, Teoma's front-page seems to have a rendering error in my FireFox 1.0 browser.

  4. Interface by Poromenos1 · · Score: 2, Informative

    The most important thing for me is a clean interface, and thus I don't care much if Yahoo is faster. Just compare hotmail with gmail, hotmail is like a newspaper. I just want to read my email! I hope MSN search doesn't load thousands of images to display your query.

    --
    Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
    1. Re:Interface by Chess_the_cat · · Score: 4, Informative

      I think you may be confusing Yahoo! the web portal with Yahoo! the search engine.. As you can see, Yahoo!'s search page is as clean if not cleaner than Google's.

      --
      Support the First Amendment. Read at -1
    2. Re:Interface by Poromenos1 · · Score: 1

      Ah, I haven't used Yahoo in a long time, and when I did, I always went to www.yahoo.com. Maybe it should be the other way around, with the portal being at portal.yahoo.com :P

      --
      Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
    3. Re:Interface by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny thing, I visit most website with everything turned off: images, javascript and styling (css and most font/color tags). In terms of cleanliness, comparing google and yahoo search results, they both look very similar and usable, with google's advanced search page being slightly better presented.

      As far as email, both hotmail and gmail are no use to me because they rely on javascript. Yahoo's email, with javascript and images turned off, is very clean and extremely usable: I can do everything even without touching the mouse, open messages in separate windows, etc.

      I haven't used Yahoo's search engine for some time, but as far usability goes, Yahoo looks like a tie or the sole winner in both searching and email. Even some of their other pages like weather and travel are very usable.

    4. Re:Interface by siriuskase · · Score: 1

      That website was news to me. Never occurred to me to enter that URL, and I probably never will (I clicked on it this time). The URL is too long for something as routine as a search. Besides it looks too much like a clone.

      --
      If you must moderate, please moderate as irrelevent, not something bad, because I'm sure someone will find this interest
    5. Re:Interface by gwoodrow · · Score: 1

      Redundant for me to say, but: It doesn't just look somewhat like a clone, it really is almost exact. The yahoo search page was news to me as well - very disappointing news. Borrowing features that everyone obviously likes is expected, but lifting pretty much the entire interface is just lazy.

    6. Re:Interface by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      images, javascript and styling (css and most font/color tags)

      Jesus Christ on a pogo-stick. You are a sad luddite, aren't you.

      What the hell is wrong with images, javascript, styling or flash? It's your kind of people who make our designers' lives hard...

    7. Re:Interface by X · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sadly, Yahoo!'s been promoting the heck out of searech.yahoo.com, but still you aren't aware of it. Who types in their search engine anyway? You just bookmark it, use the search box in firefox, or use a search toolbar in your browser.

      You'd be well advised to keep Yahoo!'s engine in your arsenal. They actually have a number of nice features. There's the "Also try" stuff, but in particular their image search and product search is *way* better than the competition.

      --
      sigs are a waste of space
    8. Re:Interface by X · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately this appears to have been a mistake made by the reviewer as well. :-(

      --
      sigs are a waste of space
    9. Re:Interface by Lord+Haha · · Score: 1

      the front page isnt the issue, do a test search
      and see how cluttered it gets...

    10. Re:Interface by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the hell is wrong with ..javascript..flash?

      Javascript is fine if it isn't used to do stuff you could do with HTML if you wern't so lazy. Flash though...Flash is fucking shit. Shockwave Flash; turning an interactive medium into one big animation since 1996. Blargh.

      It's your kind of people who make our designers' lives hard...

      Boo fucking hoo. Let me play you the worlds saddest tune on the worlds smallest violin..

    11. Re:Interface by siriuskase · · Score: 1

      That's just it, I don't even need a Google bookmark. Safari comes with a google box on the address bar, and if I'd rather not type at all, I can highlight text with my mouse and use the right button to Google on it. Maybe I shouldn't let Apple think for me, but they do a better job than Microsoft does for its customers.

      --
      If you must moderate, please moderate as irrelevent, not something bad, because I'm sure someone will find this interest
    12. Re:Interface by McDutchie · · Score: 1
      As you can see, Yahoo!'s search page is as clean if not cleaner than Google's.

      Whoa! That interface is very blatantly stolen, this looks possibly actionable.

    13. Re:Interface by pipingguy · · Score: 1


      Actually, I promote my site's Google search results for "piping design" (without the quotes, and admittedly it's a kind of obscure subject) but the Yahoo results are preferable than the Google ones in my opinion. I'm still #1 at both, but Yahoo finds original content provided by readers at #4 while Google seems to find my advertising page at #2.

    14. Re:Interface by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are a sad luddite, aren't you. What the hell is wrong with images, javascript, styling or flash?

      No, but you're a sad idiot, that's for sure. I didn't say anything's wrong with graphics or the rest, I simply implied that most of the time I have no need for them, like when *reading* the results of a search. Clue for your: note that Google's become popular BECAUSE OF ITS CLEANLINESS, i.e. lack of javascript or flas, and little in terms of styling and images. Clue 2 for you: I'd like to read text in the size, color, and font that fits MY monitor's charactersitics, not YOURS.

      It's your kind of people who make our designers' lives hard...

      Hell yeah. I just can't wait for you "designers" to give the fuck up and leave the authoring of web pages to properly-trained *UI* and *HCI* professionals.

    15. Re:Interface by smacktits · · Score: 1

      I agree with this. I am an Opera user; all I have to go is type "g " in the address bar. No need to ever actually type in www.google.com.

    16. Re:Interface by siriuskase · · Score: 1

      I mean, I don't even do that, I just highlight it and click.

      I have autocomplete, too. I agree, that's almost as handy, I put s in the addressbar and go straight to slashdot.

      --
      If you must moderate, please moderate as irrelevent, not something bad, because I'm sure someone will find this interest
    17. Re:Interface by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what the... it looks exactly like google!

  5. I smell a conspiracy... by vudufixit · · Score: 3, Funny

    I find it highly suspicious that Incredifind and Lycos Sidesearch were left out. I mean, c'mon, search "helpers" that install themselves automatically and lead me to fascinating products I never knew I needed deserve some mention, right???

    1. Re:I smell a conspiracy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I, for one, prefer XXX Toolbar.

    2. Re:I smell a conspiracy... by marcobi · · Score: 1
  6. Something I can say about Jeeves.... by th3space · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It helped me track down a couple of old friends, even when all others had failed. To be fair, it was the last one that I had turned to - I'd even tried dogpile and lycos before that.

    --
    "How like you to drag your keyboard to a gun fight." - Aaron Bedard (BANE)
    1. Re:Something I can say about Jeeves.... by Sirch · · Score: 1

      Of course it was the last one you turned to - everything is always in the last place you look.

      Look any more once you've found it, and there's something seriously wrong with you.

    2. Re:Something I can say about Jeeves.... by th3space · · Score: 1

      Huh, go figure...I hadn't even thought of it that way. I just looked at it from the perspective of having already exhausted all other reputable resources (that were free, natch), and tried Jeeves a whim moreso than anything else. *shrug*

      And what's wrong with looking twice, anyway?

      --
      "How like you to drag your keyboard to a gun fight." - Aaron Bedard (BANE)
  7. MSN search is in early beta! by sriram_2001 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is hardly fair as MSN search is in very early beta while Google and the rest have been around for several years

    1. Re:MSN search is in early beta! by jacksonj04 · · Score: 1

      No... no it's not. MSN search has been around while (admittedly snaffling results from Yahoo), but MSN have had experience in this field before.

      --
      How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
    2. Re:MSN search is in early beta! by justsomebody · · Score: 1

      Beta for how long now???

      MSN search was around for a very long time and every time I tried it it sucked, missed or both.

      Or do you think only new MSN search should be taken in question. That would be wrong because I think that old search was a template for new one. In any case old MSN search should be treated as time of presence in the market.

      --
      Signature Pro version 1.13.2-3 release 83.5 beta3try7 after-breakfast edition
    3. Re:MSN search is in early beta! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is hardly fair as MSN search is in very early beta while Google and the rest have been around for several years

      So do you mean that they should have ignored MSN search completely and refused to even consider it because it's a beta, or do you mean that they should have recommended everyone to use MSN search because although it's crap, it makes up for that by being beta?

    4. Re:MSN search is in early beta! by Ford+Prefect · · Score: 1

      This is hardly fair as MSN search is in very early beta while Google and the rest have been around for several years

      I started using Google when it said 'beta' on its front page - I used it because it frequently gave far better results than all the other search engines of the time.

      I've got a Gmail account. That's 'beta' too. I use that for webmail because I find it's better than all the competitors.

      I can accept glitches and unexpected behaviour in a beta product, as long as the benefits outweigh the problems. MSN's new search still isn't particularly good when it's working properly - and it's definitely not significantly better than its more mature rivals. So, as web users, why should anyone bother?

      --
      Tedious Bloggy Stuff - hooray?
  8. Google - category sorting could help. by Japong · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If I recall correctly, Google does a lot of its indexing and listings by how many web pages link to the page in question, the more popular the page, the closer it is to being first in relevance of a search.

    I've found this to be quite troublesome when it comes to searches for information that instead give me commercial sites trying to sell things - "samsung 753df monitor review" gives me one actual review and then a couple of pages worth of links to sites that simply include user reviews.

    Google really needs a better way to filter out these pages than having users type in "-consumer, -resale -'buy now!'".

    1. Re:Google - category sorting could help. by Japong · · Score: 1

      Fawk - knew something seemed wrong there...

      Proper link for parent post

    2. Re:Google - category sorting could help. by Xeo+024 · · Score: 1

      Also, all these Google bombs add to the annoyance. Before it would be much easier to find what you were looking for, now you might have to go through several pages of results before you can find the right site. As a result of this, the quaility of search results produced just haven't been as outstanding as they once were. Google needs to do something about this.

    3. Re:Google - category sorting could help. by s7uar7 · · Score: 1

      Google is partly much to blame for this problem through their AdSense program. Buyers of Adwords for hardware tend to pay a lot for the keywords as the purchase price of the item is high, so sites displaying AdSesnse ads on their site get a high $/click on these ads. If you're searching for a review of a product you're interested in buying it and so more likely to click on an ad.

    4. Re:Google - category sorting could help. by Tycho · · Score: 1

      Crap man, all you really need to know about all of the Samsung CRT computer monitors from the last two years is to avoid all of them like the plague. From the low maximum resolutions on the last generation to the extremely poor color range and poor contrast on the current generation there is no really good reason to buy a Samsung CRT computer monitor. The most maddening thing about this is that the picture looks fine on the 26" Samsung HDTV looks fine. This is despite the fact that Samsung uses the same brandname, DynaFlat, for the tube in their CRT computer monitors, the picture on them looks much worse than the picture on their HDTV monitors.

      The story is different on their LCDs and the other computer hardware Samsung manufactures, which is of decent quality, relatively reliable, and inexpensive. I use Samsung hard drives, optical drives, and memory and I think that they are great. Of the several that I own, none of them have failed on me, even after using some of them for over a year. In my experience, if a piece of computer hardware lasts a year, it is probably about time to move it to a slower computer or retire it all together. However, Samsung CRT computer monitors are absolutely terrible.

      Wow, another off topic post by me, oops. Oh well, maybe this will end up on Google.

      --
      Impersonating Tycho from Penny Arcade since before there was a PA.
    5. Re:Google - category sorting could help. by whereiswaldo · · Score: 1

      Google really needs a better way to filter out these pages than having users type in "-consumer, -resale -'buy now!'".

      I could actually live with using keywords to eliminate bad matches, if only Google would not limit the number of keywords you can enter to a measly 10.

  9. Ask Jeeves? by SledgeHBK · · Score: 1

    Jeevus, I forgot the search existed.

    Ever since google became a verb, it's all I use.

    1. Re:Ask Jeeves? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well aren't you just a worthless sheep then. ;P

  10. Re:My own personal study. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In case you missed the 4 times he mentioned it, his site is Nullwhore!

    That's NULLWHORE.COM PEOPLE!!!

    --
    NULLWHORE!!

  11. Re:How long until relevance engines are commoditie by FiReaNGeL · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Jeans are common things, and yet, people still buy Levis.

    Brand recognition is key in any market. And dont think that when search engines become "common", they'll be better than Google. Running www.Google.com isnt in the reach of most... hardware costs, knowledge, etc.

    Even Microsoft can't seem to catch up with them, and it's been many years Google is #1 in my book.

  12. So I've heard! by dshaw858 · · Score: 1

    I've read multiple comparisons between all these search engines, and most of the time (all the ones I've read, anyway), MSN Search comes out dead last. The question I have, is what does Microsoft have to say about all of this? I mean, they promised everyone the best, but now people are saying that their search, in summary, kind of sucks. Have they released an official statement justifying what's happening? Also, we do have to remember that this is only a beta test of their search engine (not that I'm defending it).

    - dshaw

    1. Re:So I've heard! by mOoZik · · Score: 0

      Jesus tapdancing Christ. MSN Search was released less than a month ago AND IT'S IN FUCKING BETA!

    2. Re:So I've heard! by diqmay · · Score: 1

      Not to repeat what has already been said, but I will anyways,

      Beta has nothing to do with quality, it only refers to how prepared a product is for final release. Many products have very high quality while still being in beta, two recent examples, gmail and firefox (until just recently).

      Just pointing out that being in beta is no excuse for a crap product.

      Diq

    3. Re:So I've heard! by mOoZik · · Score: 1

      You pointed out two examples. I can name you 1001 examples where the opposite is true. Beta is NOT meant to be perfect. Gmail is beta not because it is still being developed, but rather because it is used to as a testbed. Also, don't forget that millions of people can't use it, because it's invite-only, while hundreds of thousands of people pounded MSN Search (the new version, not the Google-based one that's being phased out).

  13. Speed by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Perhaps someone can enlighten me as to why speed really matters in these cases. Can you really tell the difference between a .18 second return and a .97 second return once you account for varying connection speeds, internet traffic, etc? Is speed really a relevant criterion? Obviously I'm missing something.

    --
    http://www.rootstrikers.org/
    1. Re:Speed by Neo's+Nemesis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the speed is actually logged on from the time a request is made to the database software and when results are returned. internet lag is not counted. thats an external factor.

      i have had google search results load up in minutes on a dialup when the time written for total search was 1 sec.

      it actually matters how fast you return your results. the sooner the better. the difference is not considerable right now but when lots and lots of traffic clogs your server with requests (catastrophe or mars migration day), then you'll get the true picture.

  14. measured time for speed is flawed by pikine · · Score: 3, Insightful

    From TFA: Yahoo: 0.18 seconds. Google: 0.97 seconds. MSN: 0.92 seconds. Others not available.

    I think the author got these numbers from the search page, where the time is shown along the number of search results. However, the meaning of this number is not well-defined. I don't think it's even guaranteed to be accurate.

    (btw, I tried on Google for "raleigh" and I got 0.30 seconds. Yahoo gives me 0.12 seconds. Trying jumping around the search results page, Yahoo gives me about 0.25 seconds, and Google sometimes goes as high as 0.70 seconds. However, I must note that Yahoo doesn't let me jump over as many as +/- 5 pages, but Google lets me jump over +/- 10 pages.)

    --
    I once had a signature.
    1. Re:measured time for speed is flawed by Hobadee · · Score: 1

      Ya... those numbers don't nessasarily mean anything. Since you can't measure the ACTUAL page creation time (you have to create the text that says how long it took!) those numbers just measure a time from point A to point B. The time differences could be different simply because the web designers put points A and B in different places. Also, what type of server side scripting do both Yahoo and Google use? This can also greatly contribute to the time differences.

      --
      ...Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled in terror, and you would not have been informed.
  15. Google? Not anymore by TheLibero · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Well, I started to find Google exteremely furstrating now. Whenever I try to serach for documents/specifications/data sheets of a certain protocol or an idea that has a large commercial use, google would send you pages, and pages, and pages of products that matched these keywords. It's very obvious that companies are buying these keywords. Thus, they have higher priorities on our first few pages in the search results.

    --
    "Evil thrives when good men do nothing"
    1. Re:Google? Not anymore by Poromenos1 · · Score: 1

      Not only this, but it's usually a totally irrelevant page, with keywords thrown in just to confuse you. I don't get these people.

      --
      Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
    2. Re:Google? Not anymore by McDutchie · · Score: 1
      It's very obvious that companies are buying these keywords.

      s/buying/spamming/

      I'm not so paranoid to think Google is actually lying to us by selling sponsored links outside of their sponsored links area, but Google does have a major and growing problem with the effectiveness of link farm spammers. The quality of their results has really gone down as a result.

  16. Easter eggs by adolfojp · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I only visited Jeeves for the easter eggs. Sadly, it seems that most of them are now gone.

    Cheers,
    Adolfo

    1. Re:Easter eggs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Easter eggs? Please expand, sir.

    2. Re:Easter eggs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Clicky and learn, friend.

      Random text to avoid lameness filter. Rob Malda is a sexy man. I wish he didn't marry Kathleen Fent so I could offer my manslot to him upon every waking moment.

    3. Re:Easter eggs by APurplePolarBear · · Score: 1

      Random text to avoid lameness filter. Rob Malda is a sexy man. I wish he didn't marry Kathleen Fent so I could offer my manslot to him upon every waking moment.

      Yeah, whatever gets you through the night.

  17. One, Two, Fou..., Thr..., ...Damn! by gregux · · Score: 4, Funny
    Search tests were conducted on five criteria:
    1. an obscure fact
    2. multiple meanings of "raleigh"
    3. speed
    4. current time in Sydney.

    If somebody involved with this story can't count to five, how seriously should we consider it?

    Sponsored by SILA -- Search for Intelligent Life in America
    --
    The three most important words in a relationship are "I love you." The two most important are "Humor me."
    1. Re:One, Two, Fou..., Thr..., ...Damn! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and "the look", makes 5.
      EOT

      disclaimer: bbc pays my wages although i had nothing to do with the article

    2. Re:One, Two, Fou..., Thr..., ...Damn! by gregux · · Score: 1

      Yes, the referenced article did list five criteria. My comment was about the /. entry itself.

      --
      The three most important words in a relationship are "I love you." The two most important are "Humor me."
    3. Re:One, Two, Fou..., Thr..., ...Damn! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If somebody involved with this story can't count to five, how seriously should we consider it?

      The /. entry was submitted by an anonymous reader. If you've figured out that this anonymous reader is involved with the story, you either have amazing powers of intuition and telepathy, or you're a complete idiot.

    4. Re:One, Two, Fou..., Thr..., ...Damn! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise... surprise and fear... fear and surprise... our two chief weapons are fear and surprise... and ruthless efficiency... our three weapons are fear, surprise and ruthless efficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope... our four... no... amongst our weapons... amongst our weaponry... are such elements as fear, surprise... I'll come in again.

  18. about my number: by pikine · · Score: 1

    When yahoo gave me 0.25, that was a rare worst case scenario. Same as when I said when Google gave me 0.70. Actually, I just hit another worst case of Google that gave me 0.88 seconds.

    --
    I once had a signature.
    1. Re:about my number: by pikine · · Score: 1

      Wow, and I keep getting worse numbers from google. 1.40 seconds. Maybe Google is now getting /.-ed?

      --
      I once had a signature.
    2. Re:about my number: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've just tried a bunch of searches on Google, including Raleigh, and got an average of about 0.12 seconds. Worst case 0.3 seconds. Whats up with that?

  19. Google Accuracy problems by AtariAmarok · · Score: 1

    Google has problems coming up with accurate results for the phrase "to be or not to be". Altavista and others produce 100% accurate results in the top 10, while Google will have between 1 and 3 results of pages not containing the phrase.

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    1. Re:Google Accuracy problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you talking about ? That search comes up with perfectly relevant results, the second one clearly stating exactly where the quote comes from.

    2. Re:Google Accuracy problems by WIAKywbfatw · · Score: 1

      It must be you. When I just searched for that phrase I got entirely relevant results. Three of the first four were as follows:

      Shakespeare - To be, or not to be: that is the question
      ART OF EUROPE. William Shakespeare - To be, or not to be (from Hamlet
      3/1). To be, or not to be: that is the question: Whether 'tis ...
      www.artofeurope.com/shakespeare/sha8.htm - 4k - Cached - Similar pages

      William Shakespeare
      William Shakespeare 1564-1616. tobeornottobe.com.
      www.tobeornottobe.com/ - 2k - Cached - Similar pages

      To Be or Not to Be (1942)
      To Be or Not to Be (1942) - Cast, Crew, Reviews, Plot Summary, Comments, Discussion,
      Taglines, Trailers, Posters, Photos, Showtimes, Link to Official Site, Fan ...
      www.imdb.com/Title?0035446 - 42k - Cached - Similar pages

      --

      "Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
    3. Re:Google Accuracy problems by Tsian · · Score: 1

      Which would be why you put phrases in quotes, no?

    4. Re:Google Accuracy problems by spoonist · · Score: 1

      There's a huge difference between these two queries:

      to be or not to be

      and

      "to be or not to be"

    5. Re:Google Accuracy problems by AtariAmarok · · Score: 1
      "There's a huge difference between these two queries"

      Which is why I did the one in quotes. The one that does not work as it should. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I said I did the search in quotes in the first place.

      --
      Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
  20. How is this a problem? by AtariAmarok · · Score: 1
    "google would send you pages, and pages, and pages of products that matched these keywords"

    As long as the pages being returned contain the keywords (in other words, are accurate results), how is this a problem?

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    1. Re:How is this a problem? by TheLibero · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How is that a problem? The problem is that the returned pages are pages i'm not looking for :-) If I'd go to yahoo and search for the same exact keywords, I'd get my documents from the first time! (I'm not suggesting the yahoo have better seraching algorithms)

      --
      "Evil thrives when good men do nothing"
  21. The trouble with Google by P-Nuts · · Score: 2

    The fact that Google has close to a monopoly on searching means there is too much of a chance that people will try to exploit its ranking system to push pages up the listings. Of course, I'm sure they are continually tweaking the ranking system to try to detect these pages, but if there were more search engines in popular use then it would be harder to find a way of exploiting them all at once.

    1. Re:The trouble with Google by rainman_bc · · Score: 1

      Under that premise, worms and exploits that take advantage of xp because of it's market share... Same thing IMO...

      No excuese for Google, just like there's no excuse for Microsoft.

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
  22. It has nothing like a monopoly by AtariAmarok · · Score: 2, Interesting
    "The fact that Google has close to a monopoly on searching means there is too much of a chance..."

    It has nothing like one. Yahoo search, msn, altavista, dogpile, and many others exist and are used. Monopoly means something, and Google sure does not fit the definition of one.

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    1. Re:It has nothing like a monopoly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It has nothing like one. Yahoo search, msn, altavista, dogpile, and many others exist and are used.

      Yes. Just like in addition to Windows there are Linux, Solaris, HP-UX, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Mac OSX and many others that are used.

    2. Re:It has nothing like a monopoly by AtariAmarok · · Score: 1

      'zactly. Which is why Windows certainly is not one either.

      --
      Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    3. Re:It has nothing like a monopoly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I don't what dope you're smoking but you simply didn't get my point. Windows has a de facto monopoly in spite of the the existence alternatives.

      The existence of "alternatives" does not mean anything.

    4. Re:It has nothing like a monopoly by AtariAmarok · · Score: 1
      "Windows has a de facto monopoly in spite of the the existence alternatives"

      If it did, none of us would be using Mac OS or Linux, would we? I considered your point, but realized that it was valid. Not only do non-Windows OS's exist, but millions use them. There is no monopoly, defacto or otherwise.

      "The existence of "alternatives" does not mean anything"

      The existence of alternatives means everything, as their presence negates the argument of a monopoly. One = monopoly. One + alternatives = many.

      --
      Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    5. Re:It has nothing like a monopoly by matt21811 · · Score: 1

      Google is not even close to a monopoly. They have about 30% market share. Compare that with Microsoft's Desktop OS market share of ~90%, which is a monopoly. This idea that Google is a monopoly probably stems from when Yahoo used Googles results a couple of years ago. The two combined had about 80% market share back then. Thats close to a monopoly.

    6. Re:It has nothing like a monopoly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Windows has de facto monopoly because applications pages written in Java (in my corporation) are being designed only with Microsoft OS based browsers in mind.

      Try running such a page on MacOS and you're in trouble. The pages won't work and there's no support - even though Java is supposed to be OS independent. They just write the code in the way that it becomes OS depedenent. Yes. I am bitter.

    7. Re:It has nothing like a monopoly by AtariAmarok · · Score: 1
      "Windows has de facto monopoly ....Try running such a page on MacOS and you're in trouble"

      I'd argue against your case, but you have failed to argue one. We've moved on from the actual definition of monopoly (blew you away there) to some contrived thing in which "Yeah, the alternatives exist, but they don't WORK AS WELL because of tricks by one of the companies involved. Therefore, that tricky company is a MONOPOLY."

      Sure, you can call Microsoft a monopoly. You can also call it a giraffe, for all the sense it makes.

      --
      Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    8. Re:It has nothing like a monopoly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It is an OS monopoly if the main applications most people need (Office and Java-basd ones) won't work properly anywhere else than in Windows.

      If that's not a legal definition for a monopoly, then the law must be changed.

      Microsoft must be brought down.

    9. Re:It has nothing like a monopoly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too bad that Office works quite well on a Mac than.

    10. Re:It has nothing like a monopoly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where do you get that number, exactly?

    11. Re:It has nothing like a monopoly by matt21811 · · Score: 1

      I get the numbers from http://www.webmasterworld.com/ Regular reading will show lots of information about all search engines.
      If you own or run a web site then you should check it out.

    12. Re:It has nothing like a monopoly by Jugalator · · Score: 1

      It is an OS monopoly if the main applications most people need (Office and Java-basd ones) won't work properly anywhere else than in Windows.

      As has been stated

      1. Microsoft Office is available for Mac too, and even in a better version than what's available for Windows according to most people who've seen the differences. (at least in the latest version of MS Office for both operating systems)

      2. OpenOffice usually does the work well enough and it's very much multi-platform. "Most people" probably don't need closer compatibility if all they do is working with e.g. plain Word documents and Excel sheets, so for these people the software would "work properly" in all definitions of "properly" I can think of.

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    13. Re:It has nothing like a monopoly by X · · Score: 1

      Wait a second here... Window's market share is like 95%. Google's is lik 50% (and that's counting AOL). They are not th same situation at all.

      --
      sigs are a waste of space
    14. Re:It has nothing like a monopoly by randall_burns · · Score: 1

      Actually, a degree of monopoly power starts to sink in with under 20 competitors according to the classic work down by Frank Knight at U of Chicago. Monpoly isn't a black/white issue---there are many shades of gray. The essence of a monopoly is they can set prices according to the degree of profitability rather than having prices dictated by market conditions. Microsoft is 80-90% the way towards being a "pure" monopoly-and as such needs substantial regulation.

  23. Why don't you learn to read, smartypants? by WIAKywbfatw · · Score: 1

    The five test criteria were relevance (the raleigh test), speed, the look (cleanliness of returned results), the obscure fact search, and the question (the time in Sydney).

    If you can't count to five yourself, or double-check basic facts, well, that's really sad.

    --

    "Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
  24. Something they left out by Neo's+Nemesis · · Score: 1

    Each search engine has strategically placed and promoted themselves in particular countries to make them the first choice.

    Hence, if the test was done at a time when users from a country were flooding an engine, considerable changes in return times would be there (still staying inside 1 sec).

    We are well aware that there isn't a single search engine that rules supreme in all the countries' networks.

  25. SBK. by eddy · · Score: 1

    >[...] Google will have between 1 and 3 results of pages not containing the phrase.

    What are you talking about?

    All the hits on the first page contains the phrase, one is to a site containing the complete works of Shakespeare. Why would you say this is not accurate?

    --
    Belief is the currency of delusion.
  26. Irrelevant results by AtariAmarok · · Score: 1
    What am I talking about? The fact that this search does not work.

    No, the third result is irrelevant, as it does not contain the phrase. If I had wanted where the quote came from (who made it), I would have asked for that. Instead, I asked for a pages containing a phrase, and Google failed to come up with completely relevant/accurate results. There are plenty of other "real world" examples of when I do phrase searches and Google fails.

    Right now, by the way, it looks like there is only one bogus result (90% accuracy). Pretty good.

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    1. Re:Irrelevant results by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the third result is irrelevant, as it does not contain the phrase.

      The third result I get is tobeornottobe,com

      If you can't see the relevance of that then you're an imbecile.

      No, that isn't flamebait. It's a flame. In this case an insightful and well deserved flame.

  27. Re:How long until relevance engines are commoditie by spoonist · · Score: 5, Informative

    Wired recently had an article recently about how brand names along just aren't cutting it any more.

    Consumers are wising up the quality is more important than name.

  28. If the page does not contain phrase... by AtariAmarok · · Score: 0
    "All the hits on the first page contains the phrase"

    The third result does not contain the phrase. It contains something I did not ask for: the phrase with no spaces in it. If I had wanted this, I would have left the spaces out. There are differences whether or not there are spaces. Consider "now here" vs "nowhere". Google, by the way, manages to handle these words and it knows the difference.

    Now try "to be or not to be" on Altavista.com. no bogus results. No returns on an altered version of the phrase; 100% accurate.

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    1. Re:If the page does not contain phrase... by Ralph+Yarro · · Score: 1

      You are probably the only person on the planet who is bothered that one of the results for "to be or not to be" is the site tobeornottobe.com containing the works of William Shakespeare, but nevertheless this really does show that Google isn't suitable for your special requirements. I think we all understand that now. Thanks for letting us know.

      --

      The real Ralph Yarro posts as Anonymous Coward. Anyone else is an impostor.
    2. Re:If the page does not contain phrase... by AtariAmarok · · Score: 1
      "You are probably the only person on the planet who is bothered that one of the results for "to be or not to be""

      Actually, this is just one of the most obvious ways to show that Google has problems doing phrase searches. I've had this happen on many other "real world" search examples.

      "but nevertheless this really does show that Google isn't suitable for your special requirements."

      My "special requirment" is not that special: it is to have relevant, accurate results. Is it really too much to ask for: search engine results that *gasp* contain what you asked specifically for? Google is buggy in this, while altavista works. However, Google is my search engine of choice because it has a lot more results than Altavista. Even if some of the results are incorrect....

      --
      Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    3. Re:If the page does not contain phrase... by ZB+Mowrey · · Score: 1
      My "special requirment" is not that special: it is to have relevant, accurate results. Is it really too much to ask for: search engine results that *gasp* contain what you asked specifically for?

      Millions of people, and the slashbot hivemind, tend to find google to be a very useful search engine. You are not alone in your opinions, but you are outnumbered. Give up, nitpicker.

      --

      Self-referential sigs are rarely entertaining.

  29. CENSORSHIP: Additional Test for Search Engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
    The article starting this thread fails to include 1 additional test for search engines. It is the censorship test.

    Which of the companies -- MSN, Google, Yahoo!, and AskJeeves -- is willing to stand up to the Chinese barbarians and to refuse to censor any results from the search engine?

    We know that Google is willing to succumb since it hires a large number of Chinese H-1B workers.

  30. What about A9? by starling · · Score: 1

    It was in the test, did quite well, and was the only one not mentioned in the /. story.

    1. Re:What about A9? by l3v1 · · Score: 1

      Maybe because A9 is nothimg more than another "engine" which is based on Google's results. Hardly one that should be included in such tests.

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    2. Re:What about A9? by starling · · Score: 1

      Maybe. More likely the submitter didn't RFTA properly.

  31. Tsian... try it. by AtariAmarok · · Score: 1
    "Which would be why you put phrases in quotes, no?"

    That is how I searched, and Google failed. When I point this out, people usually say how hard this is to do. Yet, it is easy using SQL logic to return strings containing substrings. It is so easy, in fact, that most other search engines have been doing this accurately for years. Finally, Google admitted that this is a bug and that they will fix it some day.

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    1. Re:Tsian... try it. by Tsian · · Score: 1

      Search

      Worked for me

  32. Clusty not mentionned ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My main is still Google but I have also a direct link to clusty wich remind me a bit of the directory link google used to have with there search.

    http://clusty.com/

  33. Re:How long until relevance engines are commoditie by paretooptimum · · Score: 3, Funny

    I think Google is already in trouble.

    I didn't need a team of British reporters and weeks of research, I just typed "Who has the fastest search engine" into the search engines. Duh! And the results are...

    Google says "AlltheWeb"
    Yahoo says "Ixquick"
    MSN says "Ixquick"
    Jeeves says "AlltheWeb"

    To break the tie I asked the winners:

    Ixquick said "AlltheWeb"
    AlltheWeb said "Ixquick"

    So there you have it: A tie.

  34. Re:How long until relevance engines are commoditie by themoodykid · · Score: 1

    I agree with this post and the article. Furthermore, I can't remember the last time that I went out of my way to buy Levi's jeans. If it's on sale and it fits well and looks good, that's good enough for me.

  35. assholes always advertise... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i shit, therefore i am.

  36. So what??? by justsomebody · · Score: 1

    There's no http://search.suprnova.org/ on the list too:) And nobody bothers

    --
    Signature Pro version 1.13.2-3 release 83.5 beta3try7 after-breakfast edition
  37. Re:How long until relevance engines are commoditie by Sj0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What a stupid post.

    Internet advertising was commodidized years ago, and that's where Google makes most of it's revenue, one way or another, according to the financial papers I read.

    The fact that Google has profit now, even after 99% of businesses in the mythical "internet sector" have gone belly up, is a testament to the fact that they probably know more than you do about this whole business thing.

    --
    It's been a long time.
  38. Nicest? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You forget, Jeeves was originally created by P.G. Wodehouse earilier this century, before the internet was invented. And if you read those books (you should, they're far better in quality than the search engine) everyone seems to be singing Jeeves praise.

    Now I will go cry in my corner of shameful dorkiness

  39. Since when.. by omghi2u · · Score: 2, Informative

    Since when have people actually *used* Ask Jeeves? I've driven by their office (in LG) before, and it looks pretty sad. I can understand a shootout between MSN, Google, and Yahoo, but to incorporate Ask Jeeves is like inviting a Christmas Island to nuclear talks with North Korea.

    1. Re:Since when.. by October_30th · · Score: 2, Funny
      Christmas Island to nuclear talks with North Korea.

      Well, the Christmas Islands could always have the mighty goatse-guy as their envoy...

      "You will either accept our terms or I will show..." ;)

      --
      The owls are not what they seem
  40. Re:How long until relevance engines are commoditie by Sj0 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    You're posting on slashdot. This makes your opinion in that regard irrelevant. :P

    --
    It's been a long time.
  41. Imbecile? by AtariAmarok · · Score: 1
    "The third result I get is tobeornottobe,com If you can't see the relevance of that then you're an imbecile."

    I didn't ask for someone's subjective definition of "relevance". I ask for something that is the only thing I ask for with search engines: pages containing the phrase. Google has problems doing this well, that is all. If you think that "to be or not to be" is the same phrase as "tobeornottobe" and that "now here" is the same phrase as "nowhere", perhaps you deserve the flame.

    By the way, until very recently, a search on the phrase came up with the page www.be.com. We know that this is a bogus/inaccurate result as well, but even you might admit that this one is not even "relevant" by your standards.

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    1. Re:Imbecile? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe "imbecile" was too harsh. Perhaps you were bitten by a Google as a child, or maybe one stole your first and only true love from you? Or maybe you really are upset about the tobeornottobe thing...

  42. Re:How long until relevance engines are commoditie by Entropius · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is the whole reason why Google has managed to survive.

    (Assembled) computers, for example, are a commodity. Anyone can buy parts off Pricewatch, build them, and sell them. This doesn't stop companies from making money by doing it.

    A better example would probably be Logitech. They make keyboards, mice, and speakers--certainly commodity items--and make money from selling them.

    Same with Google. Anyone else can, and many other people do, provide relevance-engine searches, but Google does it better for cheaper than anyone else.

    This is how capitalism is supposed to work. Google doesn't survive because they don't have relevant competition (like Microsoft), they survive because they can stand up to their competition (like Logitech).

    And we all get better, cheaper stuff for it.

  43. Google Isn't a Search Engine Any More by snookerdoodle · · Score: 1, Troll

    From Google:

    "Your search - "lynndie england" - did not match any documents."

    "Your search - "lyndie england" - did not match any documents."

    nuff sed. ;-)

    Mark

    1. Re:Google Isn't a Search Engine Any More by ZB+Mowrey · · Score: 1
      Google search: lynndie england

      First Google Result

      It worked for me. Funny, that.

      --

      Self-referential sigs are rarely entertaining.

    2. Re:Google Isn't a Search Engine Any More by NigelJohnstone · · Score: 1

      Search "lyndie england", 11,100 results
      Search "lynndie england", 97,200 results.

    3. Re:Google Isn't a Search Engine Any More by mynickwastaken · · Score: 1

      Ask.com returns some pictures. How they succeed?!

      http://pictures.ask.com/pictures?q=lynndie+england &qsrc=31&o=0

    4. Re:Google Isn't a Search Engine Any More by snookerdoodle · · Score: 1

      Where are the pix?

      Try an image search on google, then try it on, say, alltheweb...

      Funny, that.

    5. Re:Google Isn't a Search Engine Any More by snookerdoodle · · Score: 1

      Well, it was humor, but you should complete your test by searching for images in google. It's certainly less than a googleplex...

      'sorry I wasn't clear about the fact that it was the image search that returns 0, but I wasn't trying to be as serious as you guys.

    6. Re:Google Isn't a Search Engine Any More by snookerdoodle · · Score: 1

      Shoulda noted that these results are for google's image search. The same image search for "lynndie england" under, say, alltheweb returns 220 hits that google just couldn't seem to find to save their lives. Oops, more sarcasm...

  44. Re:How long until relevance engines are commoditie by 9thFairway · · Score: 1

    and the competition is not far behind http://www.mooter.com/

    --
    -every shot makes somebody happy!
  45. jux2 by joe094287523459087 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    i always use http://www.jux2.com

    it grabs results from google+yahoo+ask jeeves, and then ranks stuff according to how it appears in those. since there's only 35% overlap the results are usually better than using 1 engine alone.

  46. Forgot one... by robyannetta · · Score: 1
    Has anyone here ever seen AllTheWeb?

    It may not be Google, but I love its simple web|news|pictures|video|audio interface.

    --
    - Just my $0.02, take with a grain of salt, your mileage may vary.
    1. Re:Forgot one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That looks...almost exactly like Altavista...

    2. Re:Forgot one... by ilikedonkeykong · · Score: 1

      What about Bush's favorite search engine, Ask Jesus?

  47. Did they try the fuck test? by nysus · · Score: 1

    Type "fuck microsoft" into Microshit's engine and then type "fuck google" into Google.

    Which search engine is better? Try it at home and you decide!

    --

    ---Technology will liberate us if it doesn't enslave us first.

  48. Not surprised the Beeb chose Jeeves & Wooster by michaeldot · · Score: 3, Funny

    Those snobby brits... Any tenuous connection to their fading culture and they're all over it!

    On a completely relevant note, I have a whole playlist of P G Wodehouse audiobooks on my iPod.

    Inspired, I'm going to start my own search engine called AskWooster. It will search for send its agents, called Gussie Finknottle, Tuppy Glossup and Bingo Little, out to seek for interesting stuff and return 3 cats, a fish and a size 14 top hat.

    Whoosh...! The sound of all this going completely over the heads of the /. crowd.

  49. Google All the Way by ilyanep · · Score: 1

    I can not use any other search engine other than google. It's just impossible for me

    --
    ~Ilyanep
    To get message, take amount of carrier pigeons at each stage mod 2. Then decode binary.
    1. Re:Google All the Way by cyklo · · Score: 1
      I decided to use a9 for the first time in a real situation today. It's actually really handy being able to type
      a9.com/query
      straight into the adress bar, especially when using a public terminal without Firefox.
    2. Re:Google All the Way by ilyanep · · Score: 1

      and yet it still uses a google search. Even though the interface may not offer the most, it is the simplist and I find it gives the best results.

      --
      ~Ilyanep
      To get message, take amount of carrier pigeons at each stage mod 2. Then decode binary.
  50. Oh, well Wired said it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...so it must be true! Let's quickly assimilate it into our worldview strictly because the oh-so-accurate Wired said so.

  51. Re:How long until relevance engines are commoditie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    What a stupid article.

    Honestly:

    Another remarkable study found that just 4 percent of consumers would be willing to stick with a brand if its competitors offered better value for the same price.


    Of course most people say that they'd switch to something that was better value. You'd have to be remarkably wealthy or incredibly stupid to say otherwise. The question is, will the adverts for Coke (or whatever) sway your opinion of what is better.
  52. emphasis: it's worst case by pikine · · Score: 1

    cauz you're talking about average, but i'm talking about worst case. Try clicking on the 15th page, then the 23rd, then the 6th, etc. You get the idea. Search engines that give out search results "lazily" (evaluate only upon request) tends to be hit hard by this random access method.

    --
    I once had a signature.
  53. Re:How long until relevance engines are commoditie by nchip · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If brands are irrelevant, howcome you are posting a link to wired on slashdot? Surely there are lots of other and even better web magazines and forums... just the names of sites escape my mind.

    --
    signatures pending - ansa@kos.to - (dont mail there)
  54. Jeeves comes through by bluyonder · · Score: 1

    Personally I like Jeeves. There have been several times when searching for something involving a common word that Jeeves' context sensitive approach came through. Sure, it makes a lot of strange suggestions, but hidden among them is an occasional gem.

  55. Can't believe they tested MSN Search... by Jugalator · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'd like to defend Microsoft this time... Their new search engine is barely through the "technical preview" (aka alpha in this case) stage and has been given limited resources as it's only available for beta testing purposes.

    "The new competitor MSN has had teething problems and we should bear in mind this is a test mode."

    Yeah, so why didn't you test the finished product? If they would've tested MSN Search, at least test search.msn.com and not beta.search.msn.com as they apparently have done. It's not interesting to me as a reader to see the performance of a search engine where very little fine tuning has been done. It's not like I'd use a search engine with little hardware resources causing more time-outs than succesful searches anyway, even if it would win in the test.

    --
    Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
  56. RTFP by AtariAmarok · · Score: 1
    "Millions of people, and the slashbot hivemind, tend to find google to be a very useful search engine"

    What part of "it is my preferred search engine" did you miss? (By the way, it is not my "opinion" that the phrase-search is buggy. It is just a fact. I showed the bug).

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    1. Re:RTFP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you look on the cached page, you'll see that people used those words in anchortext pointing to the page. See the helpful information in the cache:
      "These terms only appear in links pointing to this page: to be or not to be".

      To be able to search anchortext in addition to the contents of a page is often a strength, as it is with tobeornottobe.com.

      If you really really want the behavior that you describe, you can exclude anchor matches, e.g. "to be or not to be" -inanchor:"to be or not to be"

  57. Lynndie England search by AtariAmarok · · Score: 1
    "Search "lyndie england"...

    I did the same thing. Lots of results. Then, I clicked on the images (instead of web search). Nothing. Unless I did something wrong. You try it.

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
  58. Re:Not surprised the Beeb chose Jeeves & Woost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Inspired, I'm going to start my own search engine called AskWooster. It will search for send its agents, called Gussie Finknottle, Tuppy Glossup and Bingo Little, out to seek for interesting stuff and return 3 cats, a fish and a size 14 top hat.

    And then having failed to achieve anything worthwhile, it'll redirect you to AskJeeves anyway?

  59. Re:Not surprised the Beeb chose Jeeves & Woost by fussili · · Score: 1

    ... but not before offering several entirely unsuitable search returns in the form of potential marriage partners.

  60. Re:Not surprised the Beeb chose Jeeves & Woost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

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  61. Meta-search engines by Iluvatar · · Score: 1

    Suprisingly, I didn't see anyone mention it. So, may I suggest:
    http://vivisimo.com/
    Much easier to navigate than Google, thanks to clusterings that actually make sense (usually)!

  62. Teoma, Vivisimo and AllTheWeb by danila · · Score: 2, Informative
    I know that I use non-google search engines quite a lot, so I decided to contribute with my results. I repeated the test for Teoma, Vivisimo and AllTheWeb. The results are presented below in the format generally similar to that in the BBC article.

    These sites don't give the time it took them, so I could only measure how fast the page loaded. My connection is relatively slow (google loads in 2-3 seconds, Yahoo in 7 seconds), so speed measurements are not very reliable or useful, but I gave them anyway.

    It's not clear from the BBC article what was the exact query for the second test. I used "What's the reported IQ of an Alsatian" (without quotes) for the first attempt (later I tried this at Google and it didn't work, so consider this attempt invalid). After none of the search engines gave anything, I tried "Alsatian dog IQ" (without quotes).

    Teoma:
    1. No ads, no clutter, to the right search refinements and relevant links from catalogs.
    2. 3,272,000 results. City is No 1 (as well as 2,4...), bikes are No 3 (and 6), explorer is No 5, charity is not on the first 6 pages.
    3. 7 seconds
    4. No result on the first attempt. No results on the second attempt.
    5. Direct link to Timeanddate.com's page for Sydney is No 1.
    Vivisimo:
    1. Original interface with clustered results (frame-based), metasearch. 2 sponsored links.
    2. Top 249 results only. City No 1 (6), bikes No 2 (3), charity 11 (there are 20 results per page), explorer No 17.
    3. 10 seconds
    4. No result on the first attempt. During second attempt using the "Shepherd" cluster and the 6th result I found out that Alsatians are the 3rd smartest breed (after border collies and poodles), but no exact IQ estimate.
    5. Direct link to Timeanddate.com's page for Sydney is No 1.
    AllTheWeb:
    1. 3 sponsored results (marked as such) on top, no clutter, search refinements.
    2. 8,350,000 results. Bikes No 1 (and 2), city is No 3 (4,5...), charity No 9, explorer No 13.
    3. 5 seconds
    4. No result on the first attempt. On the second attempt it listed the relevant page at No 11 (although unlike at Google, the answer itself wasn't in the site summary).
    5. Direct link to Timeanddate.com's page for Sydney is No 3.
    Conclusions: AllTheWeb is excellent for searching, basically as good as Google (from this very limited test). Vivisimo is good for searching, clustering is very good. Teoma no as good - didn't find the charity.

    Refinements at Teoma are almost as good as Jeeves. Refinements at Vivisimo the clustering is not as effective as at Jeeves (because the number of search results is smaller), but still good. Refinements at AllTheWeb, though there wasn't any for explorer or charity.

    Interface is great everywhere, no gimmicks, like at A9 (which has a monstrously huge 200Kbyte page), everything is slick. Frame interface at Vivisimo is good. Not too much ads, at Vivisimo they are marked, at AllTheWeb they are marked too, but not as well, and Teoma doesn't have ads.

    Next I will try some visual search tools (Grokker, Kartoo, etc.) and will post the results in the reply to this post.
    --
    Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
  63. asanine-suggestions-from-jeeves-the-idiot-butler by pjt33 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Did the people who modded that down read the department?

  64. Re:How long until relevance engines are commoditie by xp · · Score: 1

    Also if brand names don't matter, why are you posting on slashdot instead of mycoolblog.blogspot.com?
    ----
    Write Code That Writes Code

  65. Re:How long until relevance engines are commoditie by xp · · Score: 1

    Another remarkable study found that just 4 percent of consumers would be willing to stick with a brand if its competitors offered better value for the same price.

    Also there is a difference between people saying they will switch brands, and people actually doing it. Market research is right up there with astrology and tarot cards in predictive accuracy.
    ----
    Write Code That Writes Code

  66. Actually, Ask Jeeves is kinda interesting by Jugalator · · Score: 3, Interesting

    These are the searches I made in order and nothing cut out except for the cases where a question didn't give anything on page 1 for either of the engines.

    Who created Slashdot?

    Ask Jeeves: CmdrTaco as #1 (correct answer)
    Google: CmdrTaco as #4

    Who designed Ford?

    Ask Jeeves: Henry Ford Academy as #1 (HF is correct)
    Google: Nothing about Henry Ford on first page

    What wavelength is red?

    Ask Jeeves: 622-780 nm from search result description of #1
    Google: "about 650 nm" if you follow link and read on in the page of #1

    Sometimes we see negative side effects from this question system...

    Where can I download Nero?

    Ask Jeeves: First links to download service that did indeed have Nero as a download, but versions from 2000. Ahead.de as #3
    Google: Ahead.de as #2 (a completely unrelated site as #1)

    I tried to refine... :-)

    Where can I download the latest version of Nero?

    Ask Jeeves: Got confused, but finally got the proper link (official download page) as #8
    Google: Nero 6.6.0.1 (correct!) at unofficial site as #1, official site as #2.

    Do SCO have a case? :-)

    Ask Jeeves: Groklaw.net as #1
    Google: NewsForge analysing article as #1 and other SCO related news articles.

    When do Revenge of the Sith have its premiere?

    Ask Jeeves: "has its worldwide premiere on May 19, 2005" according to search result description for #2.
    Google: Nothing in search result descriptions, and nothing I could find by following a few search result links on page 1.

    --
    Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    1. Re:Actually, Ask Jeeves is kinda interesting by Frantactical+Fruke · · Score: 1

      > Ask Jeeves: Groklaw.net as #1
      > Google: NewsForge analysing article as #1 and other SCO related news articles.

      Groklaw blocks the Google spider, last I heard.
      I think the reason stated was that they did not want to swamp search results for the SCO lawsuits, or something like that. I don't see the point. Groklaw is a perfectly fine starting point for researching them, IMHO, but then my name is not Darl McBride...

    2. Re:Actually, Ask Jeeves is kinda interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But google does a word match, so it probably gets thrown by the "where", "who" etc
      Jeeves is designed to accomodate for these words

    3. Re:Actually, Ask Jeeves is kinda interesting by drew · · Score: 1

      One more question:

      What is the worst search engine?
      Google: MSN at #4
      Ask Jeeves: No mention of MSN on the first page

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    4. Re:Actually, Ask Jeeves is kinda interesting by Jugalator · · Score: 1

      But google does a word match, so it probably gets thrown by the "where", "who" etc
      Jeeves is designed to accomodate for these words


      Yeah, that's kind of my point... In some cases this question thing actually works for Ask Jeeves. I thought it only had a restricted database for questions like "What do the acronym (something) mean?", and that it would suck in other cases, but it doesn't seem to be that bad.

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    5. Re:Actually, Ask Jeeves is kinda interesting by Jugalator · · Score: 1

      Groklaw blocks the Google spider, last I heard.

      Searching for "Groklaw's Mission Statement" in Google finds this page so it seem like Google is indexing them.

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
  67. What about reviews of Gmail? by Mars+Ultor · · Score: 1

    The reviewers added the disclaimer that MSN was having "teething problems" (ie. still in progress), so the informed reader needs to keep this in mind as they compare MSN to the other more established competitors.

    There are plenty of Gmail reviews out there, even though it is still in beta. I think it's perfectly acceptable to review/test a beta product that has been put online (for the express purpose of testing) if for no other reason than to provide feedback for MSFT to use if they so desire.

    --
    "Nokia is not a country, it's the capital of Finland!" -Moderated "Informative". Yeesh.
  68. Grokker, Kartoo and Mooter by danila · · Score: 1
    In addition to some non-traditional plain search engines I decided to test three visual search tools: Grokker - a desktop application for Windows,
    flash-based Kartoo and HTML-based Mooter. First I searched for "raleigh" and tried exploring the visual results. The next search was for "Alsatian dog IQ", the last for "what is the time in Sydney". I didn't expect to see the results on the first page, since these engines are not really page-oriented, I was willing to quickly refine the results using their special facilities.

    Grokker:
    1. It looks cool, clearly has the potential, but the algorithms for grouping the results is bad, which results in excessive exploring and browsing. Also, the program emphasises grouping of categories instead of grouping the links. So you open categories, which contain categories, which contain categories, when you would really like a clearly market relevant link.
    2. Many results, all visible (to some extent) at once - rather impressive. Created two categories for the explorer and the city immediately. Zooming to more categories didn't show anything, zooming again shows bikes and zooming again showed "International", which had the links to charity. In the first step there were categories for Guide, Hotels, Local, Weather, News, Area, which might have been helpful if we were looking for the North Carolina city. The category for Sir Walter Raleigh appears to be very well structured. Interestingly, the bikes category had information about biking IN Raleigh (links to TriangleMTB mountain biking association).
    3. Quite slow. It collects a lot of information during grokking, with results being gradually added to the concept map.
    4. After expanding the map twice (clicking on the More Categories), there was one named "Average". It immediately caught my eye and after mousing over it I found a familiar title (the page, which had the IQ=60 answer). It's not as visible as it was in Google, but still better than nothing and a dedicated searcher would have probably found it.
    5. Had the category "Local time in Sydney", which had a link to the main page of World Time Server. Nothing better than that.

    Kartoo:

    1. Looks nice, there are a lot of additional options near the edges (found sites, refinements, etc.), but it just fails to find relevant links and present them in a coherent way.
    2. Enough results, but the scope doesn't look as impressive as in Grokker. Had some pretty maps, with many links and keywords for the North Carolina city. Completely useless if you were looking for other "raleighs".
    3. Rather slow.
    4. After some browsing and page checking, found this one, where TARA, a 10 month Alsatian/Husky mix gal from Lloret de Mar, Girona Spain apparently scored 95 on an IQ test. Not something BBC had in mind, but still.
    5. Nothing even remotedly relevant. Very irrelevant results!

    Mooter:

    1. Looks very simple, no clutter at all. The visual part is mostly a gimmick, as it doesn't provide anything a simple list of refinements can't.
    2. Few results, some less pretty maps. Nothing useful, besides city-related links.
    3. Very fast.
    4. It had the 95 semi-result, but not the real one. Funny, the 3rd cluster had such refinements as "lap dog republican red state moron" and "attack dog on bush military service". :)
    5. The refinements weren't really needed, since the question is so simple and the timeanddate.com result is so prevalent. But anyway, clicking on "sydney", "current", "time", "australian" or "wales" brought the list of results where the link to curr
    --
    Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
    1. Re:Grokker, Kartoo and Mooter by saddino · · Score: 1

      Hey Danilla, Great search engine research. If you have a Mac (and the time) maybe you can try theConcept and give a similarly detailed analysis of its use (perhaps data mining results from Google). Since it's my company, I'm biased on its usefulness (as a keyphrase analyzer its approach to search is somehwat different from the "find the answer" test your trying) but I'd definitely be interested in your comments or suggestions, given your expertise in this field.

    2. Re:Grokker, Kartoo and Mooter by danila · · Score: 1

      I don't have a Mac at the moment, but might get one in a few months. I'll add this to my ToDo list for now.

      --
      Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
  69. Self condemnation by leonbrooks · · Score: 3, Funny

    Want to find an evil corporation?

    How about a monopolist?

    Or, for something a little different, the greatest threat to innovation in our world?

    All straight from the horse's mouth. (-:

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  70. Re:How long until relevance engines are commoditie by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

    You do have a point.

    "Well-managed brands have extraordinary economic value and are the most effective and efficient creators of sustainable wealth."

    The real problem is that the brands are poorly managed. One of the reasons brands became powerful is that the products made stood up to a certain level of quality. If they cannot retain that level of quality, buyers will buy something else.

    They mentioned Sony DVD players, well, they've been hit by stupidly making a couple models (330 and 560, I think) that not only couldn't read CD-Rs, CD-RWs, had only a 90 day warranty, they also had a very rediculous failure rate, especially with the crap they make in Mexico. Other Sony products have had sketchy reliability, and have long had an uncompetitive warranty length or absurdly priced.

    Note, I do own some Sony products, but I only buy them after a good amount of research.

  71. Math is hard by HexRei · · Score: 1

    Search tests were conducted on five criteria: an obscure fact; multiple meanings of "raleigh"; speed; and current time in Sydney.

    Am I missing something or is this only 4 things? Maybe the "multiple meanings of raleigh" counts as two?

  72. Thanks! It makes it work by AtariAmarok · · Score: 1
    Thanks! It makes it work. Google's own "Basics of Search" has this in the beginning paragraph: " Since Google only returns web pages that contain all the words in your query". It's too bad that, for now, you have to put a "never guess it in a million years" keyword into the line in order to get it to work. Hopefully, the renewed competition will get Google to clean this up.

    The behavior is really not that obscure, 'get pages that have what I am looking for'. That is how I always search anyway.

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
  73. They didn't try define: on google. by Sebastian+Jansson · · Score: 1
    Why didn't they try doing a search using googles keyword define:
    When I tried that the first hit returns:
    "English courtier (a favorite of Elizabeth I) who tried to colonize Virginia; introduced potatoes and tobacco to England (1552-1618)"
    That seams like quite an good answer to me.

    Wel I guess noone will see this but it still is worth mentioning.
  74. Re:How long until relevance engines are commoditie by hng_rval · · Score: 1

    He didn't say that brands were irrelevant, but rather that they were insufficient to generate profits. It taks a strong brand, high quality product, and continuous marketing efforts to consistantly outsell your competition.

    A good brand certainly helps. That's why Coke outsells store-brand soda and Lays outsell store-brand chips (in blind taste tests, consumers actually prefer most store-brand items). However, unless the quality of branded items improve, they could soon see their dominance come to an end.

    --
    Thank you Mario! But our princess is in another castle!
  75. Re:How long until relevance engines are commoditie by biglig2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You're new around here, aren't you? Because, and I am saying this with a lot of love, Slashdot readers are not exactly the best example of the public's clothes buying habits.

    --
    ~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
  76. Nice things to say about Jeeves by The+Ape+With+No+Name · · Score: 1

    This may be the nicest thing anyone's ever said about Jeeves

    Piffle. Bertie Wooster has many nice things to say about Jeeves. Why just the other day, I popped into the Drones for a dash of the t. and g. and no other than Bertram Wooster himself was holding forth at the billiards table, singing high praises of Jeeves, his valet. I believe the tone was something like, "The old boy has a large protrubence at the top-back of his head. That's where the brain is. It comes from eating fish and reading some crime novelist named Spinoza."

    --
    Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
  77. Clusty? by Ash-Fox · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I would of liked to see a comparisation against the clusty search engine with those other search engines. I've found clusty to be very usefull with it's categorial search.

    Although their "sponsored results" (taken from overture) tend to anoy me, as they look part of the search results.

    --
    Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  78. Jeeves appears to be the sleeper search engine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    (Author claims to be a Google nut.)"


    Yeah, I was until recently also. Except that I discovered that Google is penalizing a few sites that I'm aware of for either meta-no cache tags, or some other reason I haven't been able to pin down yet. The sites aren't cloaked, filled with spam words, purchasing links, using refresh tags, or any other method used by spammers. And yet, on a site with about 30 pages, only a few deep pages appear in the first 200-300 results, and all the rest are below that. On Yahoo, the same sites are in the top 10-20 in just about all the relevant keywords. If you are looking for something featured on the sites, you would expect to get back exactly these sites in the top results so you don't have to waste time. This is what made me realize that Google should no longer be my sole search engine. Yahoo has to be included in my tool belt. And I had dropped Yahoo about 3 years ago in favor of Google because they consistently had better results and because of a principled position on all the spam that I was getting from yahoo groups and yahoo mail. But if Google's penalty tool is penalizing sites that should be at the top of searches, it has me wondering what sites I'm missing by sticking to Google only. I'll still use Google, but Yahoo will be getting just as much use from me from now on.

    I try MSN search once in a while just to get a laugh, but that search engine really sucks. My browser identifying myself as a Konqueror or Mozilla user on Linux probably doesn't help things, though I don't waste time searching for Linux related links on MSN anyway.

    This may be the nicest thing anyone's ever said about Jeeves.


    Yeah. I can't believe it. Up until I started watching access logs again, I thought Ask Jeeves wasn't around anymore, or had been bought out. But watching the logs, I keep seeing Jeeves queries coming through. Other than Google, Yahoo, & MSN (and possibly one or two others), Ask Jeeves has to be right behind these other search engines in terms of market share, at least on the sites I'm looking at.

    Jeeves also appears to have the most accurate search when it comes to phrases. All the other search engines (except with Google in some cases as outlined above) are doing a great job with one or two keywords. But Ask Jeeves is hitting specific sub pages within the sites I'm watching, down to the most relevant page from the phrase entered. They are really drilling down and nailing the right page from the long phrases entered into the search query. And the phrases entered usually aren't one or two keywords, they are sentences that are very specific, and Jeeves has no problems handling them. Yeah, I'm only seeing some results of good queries, but they are so specific I have trouble believing they are missing on other searches.

    Jeeves appears to be the sleeper search engine to watch. btw, search.msn.com/msnbot has been hitting all the sites on my servers especially hard every night. They are spacing it out so it isn't a problem, but they keep coming back nightly, at a much higher rate than yahoo, and far, far higher than google and jeeves. I find it funny because its making it look like the msnbot is panicking and trying very hard to catch up, lol! There's been some posts on webmaster boards in the last week about msnbot being especially busy, and about them trying to catch up to google. There's also been talk about the possibility of msn's spider scraping google's results to check their algorithms. That's even funnier. I can just see Billy throwing a tantrum because he can't catch up to Google.
  79. yahoo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    yahoo's now got 1 billion images.

    where's the slashdot story on that?

  80. Google reigns by LANjackal · · Score: 1

    No surprise that Google won that shootout. They conduct more effective R&D than any of their competitors. Google's workforce is almost completely PhD, while Microsoft for one employs mostly BS and MS graduates. Guess who delivers the cutting edge performance?

  81. Re:CENSORSHIP: Additional Test for Search Engines by __aavljf5849 · · Score: 1

    Interesting point, but unfortunately, your reasoning is pure paranoia . Do you have any reference to Google censoring? Tibet.org doesn't even mention Google. Don't you think they should mention it if they thought Google censored them?

  82. Re:How long until relevance engines are commoditie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's funny as hell...good one