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Are Usability & Security Opposites in Computing?

krozinov writes "Instinct tells us that computer security and computer usability are inversely proportional to each other. In other words, the tougher and stricter the security is, the less usability there is, and vice versa. However, there have been plenty of cases where both computer security and computer usability went hand in hand with each other and actually improved together. In the last few years security has been the biggest buzzword in computer systems and as such has become part of our computer systems. Before that, computer systems were all about getting it done faster and easier, but now they must also do it securely. Can the two continue growing together? This paper argues that it can, as evident by the most recent Indian Assembly Election."

253 comments

  1. Of course not. by reynaert · · Score: 5, Funny

    Most applications manage being both unusable and insecure just fine.

    1. Re:Of course not. by strict3 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Jeremiah Cornelius (137)
      I got a box, what can do noffin' but f*ck*'n security, you see? Like, it gots itself one n'er vese firewalls, wot's good fer makin' sure you can't get no f*ck*'n diseases from the Internets, inn'it? Now, is you a girl or really a boy?

      Wow, now there's proof that having a lower user id means nothing.

      --
      "If a frog had side pockets, he'd carry a hand gun" - Dan Rather
    2. Re:Of course not. by sik0fewl · · Score: 1

      It can be related to a Johari window.

      There are applications that are

      • both unusable and insecure
      • applications that are just usable
      • applications that are just secure
      • And then, of course, there's the "unknown" pane where secure & usable applications fall into.
      --
      I remember when legal used to mean lawful, now it means some kind of loophole. - Leo Kessler
    3. Re:Of course not. by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      Hint:
      I'm not a Cockney, but I play one on the Telly.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    4. Re:Of course not. by edxwelch · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, a good example is that pop-up warning message box that outlook gives you when you receive an email with an attachment - provides no real security and at the same time serves to make the application so much more annoying to use.

    5. Re:Of course not. by TKinias · · Score: 1

      Johari window? Sounds more like a bog-standard Venn diagram...

      --
      In principio creauit Linus Linucem.
  2. My Soapbox by rednip · · Score: 5, Insightful
    My best example of where 'increased security' actually defeats it's purpose is rapid password expiration. I've seen password policies which force a user to change their password every thirty days The problem is that most users have trouble remembering passwords. This 'forces' users to do two things,
    1. create a series of passwords, which may be as simple as adding a number to the end.
    2. or, write down passwords
    System Admins and Managers can force unique passwords, keep a long password history, and check desks, but then the burdon falls more heavly on their help desk system.

    No matter what the password policy eventually users will need to have a password reset, each time is a cost on the tech support system. Proper security whould have a security officer phyically identify each user before reset but that would be costly, so they instead ask a couple of profile questions. Which open up social engineering issues. So generally, the harder your password policies are, then the easier your reset policies need to be, (unless cost really isn't an issue).

    --
    The force that blew the Big Bang continues to accelerate.
    1. Re:My Soapbox by omghi2u · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Is there a way to check for similar passwords in someone's history without 1)violating their privacy 2)compromising their password ?

      Just a thought.

      But you are totally correct in that conundrum!

    2. Re:My Soapbox by stecoop · · Score: 4, Funny

      I especially like the policies where your account is locked for something like 30 minutes on N bad password attempts. I like trying to guess what the boss's password is right before a high-level critical presentation. For some reason administrator account doesn't ever get locked though; that's too bad huh?

    3. Re:My Soapbox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I find that sites with single-sign ons have much less of a problem with users forgetting passwords, even when they must change them frequently.

      Its when we force them to remember several user/passes that they get into trouble. Especially if the systems all have different password policies and/or naming conventions.

      If only there were a true, inexpensive, and easy to setup/maintain single sign-on solution.

    4. Re:My Soapbox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      My best example of where 'increased security' actually defeats it's purpose is rapid password expiration. I've seen password policies which force a user to change their password every thirty days

      Mine, too. I actually wrote at work a proxy that changed their password nine times, then back to the original. We decided it was more important for them to have a good password than for them to change it often. Naturally, we can't convince the domain admins to agree, so we...displayed adaptability.

    5. Re:My Soapbox by gmuslera · · Score: 1
      There are gadgets to store "safely" passwords, and fits well in a keychain. If for your company is so critical the security of the passwords, well can buy for everyone there one of such things, or just magnetic cards instead of having to write passwords (of course, both gives some phisical security concerns, but are safer than some other alternatives). Is not exactly the same, but one of the uses for my palm is just storing there hard to remember passwords protected by a master password with strip.

      Also, there are also several strategies to implement one time passwords, why not change password every time you use it?

    6. Re:My Soapbox by XMyth · · Score: 1

      Not unless the old password is stored in cleartext somewhere and the new password is transmitted in cleartext (well, not in hash form at leasst) over the wire...both of which are additional weaknesses....the first one being much worse than having similar passwords IMHO.

    7. Re:My Soapbox by XMyth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      to clarify: not "cleartext" but rather in encrypted OR cleartext. Neither is good. A password hash is best.

    8. Re:My Soapbox by TykeClone · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Sometimes the password edict is not from the company, but from the regulators. In the banking world, the IT examiners are not (necessarily, but who's kidding - they're really not) IT people. They've got a script that they follow in looking for "IT risks" and if you have weak password policies (not forcing changes every 30 days and lockouts and other stuff) you get knocked for it.

      Those gadgets are a nice idea, but I'm not sure that they would fly (yet) with the administrators.

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    9. Re:My Soapbox by TykeClone · · Score: 1

      Agreed there, but the other issue that I have at work is the sheer number of passwords that are required for my users. Then you have people use the same password over multiple platforms and applications.

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    10. Re:My Soapbox by ajs · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I resolved this problem by writing a program that generates provably secure, memorable passwords for users.

      Of course, the security buffs in the audience just stood their chairs back upright, brushed off the cheetos dust from their pants and are preparing to roast me over a slow fire for public stupidity. Let me explain.

      I tried using a password generator called mkpasswd that comes with expect. I thought it generated great passwords because they looked impressively secure. Then I did the math... ulch.

      This was my introduction to a concept that I later read about in many places, including Applied Cryptography: the human's ability to judge secure from insecure is based on pattern-recognition. If you generate passwords or other tokens that don't match a pattern that the brain is used to, it looks "obscure", and that maps in most people's minds to "secure"... wrong.

      This program generated a 9-character password (sounds good) which had to contain at least one punctuation mark and 2 digits... Prolbem is there are only 10 digits, and just a handful more valid punctuation marks, so searching all 9-character passwords that contain 2 digits and a punctuation mark is orders of magnitude less work than searching all possible 9-character passwords. The result was then limited further to the requirement of 2 upper-case letters and 2 lower-case latters. Well, there goes the farm! It turns out that the result is easier to crack than a random sequence of alpha-numerics with no punctuation (and only slightly more secure than an 8-character sequence of random alpha-numerics)!

      So, I began doing some research on techniques for generating things that would look insecure (i.e. are memorable), but would actually be more secure than mkpasswd's approach. I found several approaches, and eventually came up with several of my own over the course of about 8 years. I now use a set of about 20 patterns which are permuted into slightly over 100 patterns including pseudo-word generation, permutation and combination of english words and so on. Each pattern maps to at least 1x10^13 possible passwords, and usually much more.

      I've also added various strictness settings where the top 1% or so of crackable passwords are eliminated from the result space (this is tricky, as removing too many possible results is just as bad as having a weak pattern).

      I now generate all of my passwords this way, and in reviewing what I used to have for passwords before, I have to say that my passwords are certainly more difficult to crack now (of course, part of that is that I use longer passwords now that MD5 passwords are fairly universally supported).

    11. Re:My Soapbox by Marco_polo · · Score: 1

      yep. You can check the hash value of the new password to the hash value of any old passwords - completely secure way to make sure passwords are not repeated.

      --
      I am the lord of the pun. Dance Knave!
    12. Re:My Soapbox by NardofDoom · · Score: 1
      Looks like someone needs a Pronounceable Password generator.

      Feel free to use it wherever and whenever you want. I've also ported it to Javascript

      --
      You have two hands and one brain, so always code twice as much as you think!
    13. Re:My Soapbox by hazem · · Score: 1

      You responded to: Is there a way to check for similar passwords in someone's history

      by saying: You can check the hash value of the new password to the hash value of any old passwords

      Now, I've only taken a few CS classes, but my understanding is that a *good* password hash should yield very different results for similar passwords. It seems that if you can see the similarities between "Password" and "pASSWORD" in your password hashing algorythm that it's not a very good hashing algorythm.

    14. Re:My Soapbox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could you post your password-generation program and the IP address of your box? I would like to 0wn your other ideas too...
      Thank you very much.

    15. Re:My Soapbox by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1
      ,p> System Admins and Managers can force unique passwords, keep a long password history, and check desks, but then the burdon falls more heavly on their help desk system.

      My response to something like that would be to forget my password every few days. You see, I have about 15 passwords for various things, and I already use a spreadsheet to track them. Oh well.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    16. Re:My Soapbox by Meostro · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So you claim that you read Applied Cryptography, and yet you use a proprietary/secret method, not obviously subjected to peer review, to generate your "secure" passwords?

      You, sir, are probably an idiot.

      Your idea is interesting and overall it sounds sensible, but unless others poke and prod at the exact details, you'll never know if your passwords really are secure or not.

    17. Re:My Soapbox by SanGrail · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sounds interesting...
      I Am Not A Crytography expert, so I was just wondering if you could explain further why *excluding* punctuation and numbers was harder to crack?
      If you didn't know *which* characters were letters, numbers, or punctuation, wouldn't that mean instead of just trying 26^10 combinations, you'd be doing (26+10+punctuation?)^10?

      On the other hand, I do definately agree that having more memorable passwords (usually pronounceable), definately pays off, as while there's a higher probability of vowels or 'l33t' vowel-numbers, I figure that people not constantly forgetting them pays off security-wise.

      --
      ---- I've fallen, and I can't get up.
    18. Re:My Soapbox by Bob+Uhl · · Score: 1

      So, is this program available? Under the GPL or BSDL, hopefully?

    19. Re:My Soapbox by imsabbel · · Score: 1

      Especially the nice fact that if the programm is ever compromised, everybody has a nice seed for his brute force cracker.

      --
      HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
    20. Re:My Soapbox by jayayeem · · Score: 1

      Me too. And I don't even password protect it.I can't afford to forget that password.

      I store it on my easily stolen PDA as well.

      --
      I metamoderate, therefore I am
    21. Re:My Soapbox by lilmouse · · Score: 3, Funny
      I resolved this problem by writing a program that generates provably secure, memorable passwords for users.

      I, myself, developed a secret technology that would generate passwords that are mathematically proven to be very difficult to "crack" yet are exceptionally easy for the user to remember.

      I based the approach on the proven techniques of phrenology, which allows me to map out certain neural pathways for each user. Based on this, I use an obsure corrolary to the Prime Number Theory to generate a secure password. I then run several tests to make sure the password isn't *too* secure to ensure it's not break-able by someone picking the hardest password.

      Sure, it's a little time consuming, but the payoffs are incredible! By the time I'm done, not only can I generate a secure password that is easy for the user to remember, but I also know which resources to allow them access to!

      I would, of course, share my technique, but then it wouldn't be as secure for me... I suppose, however, if I were to share it, I wouldn't be laughed at for making rediculous claims that are totally unsupported.

      --LWM
    22. Re:My Soapbox by ajs · · Score: 1

      So you claim that you read Applied Cryptography, and yet you use a proprietary/secret method, not obviously subjected to peer review, to generate your "secure" passwords?

      That's a leading way to state it. Here's another way (perhaps just as leading): I went from one proprietary, unreviewed method (whatever came to my head) to another non-entirely proprietary, unreviewed method which I felt to be a small improvement in the process.

    23. Re:My Soapbox by ajs · · Score: 1

      I Am Not A Crytography expert, so I was just wondering if you could explain further why *excluding* punctuation and numbers was harder to crack?

      Password space 1 (mkpasswd as shipped by expect):

      1 punctuation, 2 numbers, 2 upcase, 2 downcase, 2 "any". There were other restrictions, but I'll stick to these for now.

      Password space 2 (just an example, not always good password):

      8 random upper/lower alpha and/or numeric characters.

      While the latter category lacks punctuation, it can include results like "aaaaaaaa" and "a0a0a0a0" both of which are not allowed in the first result set. The resulting search spaces are about the same size, even though the first example is 9 characters, where the second is 8.

    24. Re:My Soapbox by ajs · · Score: 1

      So, is this program available? Under the GPL or BSDL, hopefully?

      Someday soon, I hope to contribute it to the community. It's hard to let it go, since I'm always adding new patterns or pattern modifiers, and all of the documentation is math that I need to put in front of others before I trust my results.

      I'm not stingy though, and I do intend to contribute this.

    25. Re:My Soapbox by ajs · · Score: 1
      I'll do better than that. Here's a password that my system just generated (as hashed by htpasswd):
      $apr1$csnj7...$nL1o7MtxR9x9kbbfuUOeW0
      crack away, and feel free to mail me your results or post them here.
    26. Re:My Soapbox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My approach has always been to keep stuff like that off my computer. Generally when I'm maintaining large networks, I keep a handwritten list of passwords in a (normally locked) drawer. In most office environments, anyone who is interested in those passwords is much more likely to gain electronic access than physical.

    27. Re:My Soapbox by Marco_polo · · Score: 1

      good enough point. misread the original question

      Lets say you create a password - lets just use "password". Then you have a system that creates hashes for the word 'password' but also creates hashes for popular variants 'p4ssword, PASSword,' etc. next time you are forced to create a password, it will check the hash database and say 'oops, so sorry - try again'

      a lot of overhead to prevent you from using similar passwords - but if your need for security is that great, perhaps a hardware token system or biometrics is a better idea :)

      --
      I am the lord of the pun. Dance Knave!
    28. Re:My Soapbox by thoromyr · · Score: 1

      So you're not really trying to rely on security through obscurity? I think it would be easy enough to get the peer review, only it could be a little disheartening or embarrasing if someone else found a glaring flaw...

      thoromyr

    29. Re:My Soapbox by caluml · · Score: 1
      create a series of passwords, which may be as simple as adding a number to the end.

      Yeah, that's what I do. I use ^^tw3xJJs (which is my base password), and then add a letter to the end from across the top row. I'm on u at the moment. I'm not sure whether to start the second row starting asdf... or lkjh... Any ideas?

    30. Re:My Soapbox by swillden · · Score: 1

      This program generated a 9-character password (sounds good) which had to contain at least one punctuation mark and 2 digits... The result was then limited further to the requirement of 2 upper-case letters and 2 lower-case latters... So, I began doing some research on techniques for generating things that would look insecure (i.e. are memorable), but would actually be more secure than mkpasswd's approach... Each pattern maps to at least 1x10^13 possible passwords, and usually much more.

      If we assume 15 possible punctuation characters, the mkpassword approach produces approximately 2x10^15 possible passwords (don't forget to account for permutations in your calculation). Although they're not all that memorable, and your approach probably produces better results that way, the mkpasswd password space is actually larger. It's also two orders of magnitude larger than random 8-character alphabetic passwords, which isn't "slightly" more secure, it's a lot more secure.

      Personally, I think either of the following produces perfectly adequate and fairly memorable passwords:

      1. Choose a passphrase of at least ten words. It can be nearly anything. Try to make it fairly obscure, but memorable to you. I like movie quotes, with modifications. Then take the first letter (or second letter, or last letter, or whatever) of each word. Assemble those into a password.
      2. Choose two words at random from a good dictionary. If they're long, shorten them in some arbitrary way that you can remember easily (something less obvious than just truncating them is good), making sure they total at least eight or nine characters. Concatenate them, and optionally throw in a numeric or punctuation character somewhere.

      You don't actually need a very large password space; anything that approaches, say, 10^8 is fine even for high-security applications where you assume that the attacker has access to the hashed (with good salt) passwords. The key requirements are that the space be just large enough to make brute force search infeasible, or not cost-effective, and that the passwords be selected randomly, to avoid guessable passwords. Anything further is just overcomplicating the issue, in general.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    31. Re:My Soapbox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But nowadays the security threat you are trying to avoid is more often remote. So having that frequently-changed hard-to-remember password written down in a drawer isn't the dumbest thing in the world.

    32. Re:My Soapbox by ajs · · Score: 1

      No, if I were relying on STO, then it wouldn't be a very good password generator would it? ;-)

    33. Re:My Soapbox by ajs · · Score: 1
      Are you taking into account that "aaAA00$$$" has 24 permutations that are identical (2!^3 * 3!^1 = 24), and must therefore be counted as one?

      If you could dredge up the math for calculating permuations of intersecting sets, I'd be thankful, though, I've been too lazy to go look that up and verify my own math.

      Another area in which my math needs double-checking in the docs before I release... sigh.

      PS: I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but your first suggestion is not a good password generator. There is a very high affinity for certain letters. Here's the distribution in my personal word-list for first-letters:
      406 A
      280 B
      382 C
      180 D
      215 E
      116 F
      191 G
      239 H
      107 I
      176 J
      73 K
      197 L
      347 M
      159 N
      90 O
      282 P
      9 Q
      188 R
      438 S
      190 T
      33 U
      69 V
      102 W
      4 X
      28 Y
      32 Z
      4545 a
      4359 b
      7280 c
      4633 d
      3063 e
      3250 f
      2373 g
      2595 h
      3155 i
      624 j
      525 k
      2250 l
      3847 m
      1579 n
      1860 o
      5857 p
      374 q
      4275 r
      8552 s
      3706 t
      2043 u
      1100 v
      1888 w
      21 x
      209 y
      124 z
      Thus trying any password that contained K, Q, X, Z, x, y or z would not be worth-while, and your search space starts to get pretty small!

      The second option is pretty bad as well, but has promise. You'd like my program... it has some really fun generation schemes. Some of them (e.g. english-like word generation) are just as weighted as your examples, but I throw in some interesting curve-balls to expand the search space substantially, and it works out well.
    34. Re:My Soapbox by ajs · · Score: 1

      Especially the nice fact that if the programm is ever compromised, everybody has a nice seed for his brute force cracker.

      Not at all, that's the entire point. The search space for my programs output is designed to be at least as large as the passwords that any human would come up with, and hopefully MUCH larger. Specifically, I would consider this program a total failure if having access to it (which I plan to publish) gave you a leg up on cracking the generated passwords.

      On the other hand, the foibles of human nature that lead to a password being "easy to remember" certain ARE a starting point, but security of passwords MUST be a trade off in the direction of memorability or in the direction of non-crackability unless you move away from re-usable passwords (the ultimate right choice, but rarely practical as yet).

    35. Re:My Soapbox by ajs · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the banking industry has some very bad rules on password management. I had to convince my superiors to let me apply for waivers to some of them (e.g. password MAXIMUMS, requirements for certain characters, etc).

    36. Re:My Soapbox by TykeClone · · Score: 1
      Taken individually, they're not that bad. Taken as a whole though it becomes a monster.

      We've got a couple of applications that use either a password+key or a password+biometric device - hopefully that will catch on a bit and allow for easier password maintenance (easier == more secure because the users will take it more seriously).

      I think that the IT examination processes would also be improved if they actually had IT type people doing the examinations. Right now (at least with the Fed) the IT examiners are your garden variety examiners that have had some IT exam training. (I got a bit disillisioned with them during the Y2K runup)

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    37. Re:My Soapbox by Carnildo · · Score: 1

      Personally, I think either of the following produces perfectly adequate and fairly memorable passwords:

      1. Choose a passphrase of at least ten words. It can be nearly anything. Try to make it fairly obscure, but memorable to you. I like movie quotes, with modifications. Then take the first letter (or second letter, or last letter, or whatever) of each word. Assemble those into a password.
      2. Choose two words at random from a good dictionary. If they're long, shorten them in some arbitrary way that you can remember easily (something less obvious than just truncating them is good), making sure they total at least eight or nine characters. Concatenate them, and optionally throw in a numeric or punctuation character somewhere.


      My method is even simpler, and more secure:
      1) Choose a passphrase of at least ten words. Use the whole damn thing as a password.

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
    38. Re:My Soapbox by Carnildo · · Score: 1

      You don't actually need a very large password space; anything that approaches, say, 10^8 is fine even for high-security applications where you assume that the attacker has access to the hashed (with good salt) passwords. The key requirements are that the space be just large enough to make brute force search infeasible, or not cost-effective, and that the passwords be selected randomly, to avoid guessable passwords. Anything further is just overcomplicating the issue, in general.

      10^8 is nowhere near good enough these days. If I've got access to the hashed passwords, my computer can crack a 10^8 keyspace in less than three minutes, and that's assuming the use of the slowest hash function I've benchmarked. If it's something like straight MD5, 10^8 is good for about five seconds.

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
    39. Re:My Soapbox by thoromyr · · Score: 1

      And what part of keeping the method secret isn't obscurity? Ah well.

      thoromyr

    40. Re:My Soapbox by swillden · · Score: 1

      Are you taking into account that "aaAA00$$$" has 24 permutations that are identical (2!^3 * 3!^1 = 24), and must therefore be counted as one?

      Partially. Doing it exactly isn't worth the effort. I approximated it.

      Thus trying any password that contained K, Q, X, Z, x, y or z would not be worth-while, and your search space starts to get pretty small!

      Doesn't matter, it's still big enough to resist brute force, particularly if the password has a limited lifetime (say, 90 days).

      The second option is pretty bad as well, but has promise.

      Again, not true.

      Your definition of "bad" is unnecessarily high, which was my whole point.

      For example, here's the unsalted md5sum of a password generated with the first method. I'll even tell you the password is 9 characters and all lowercase alphabetic. Care to try to find it?

      b665f91a918b5dd6dcb90f9aaed7eab0

      For that matter, here's an even easier one, only 6 characters, also alphabetic and lower case. This one should be easy, right?

      40f91355901b10f67c1414dbe7429cbd

      Neither contain any x's, y's or z's.

      I realize that throwing out challenges like this is not the way to go about testing security, but if you make some reasonable assumptions about the attacker's capability and motivation you'll find that in 99.9% of cases, you don't need passwords drawn from a uniform space of 10^15 values. For that matter, four-digit PINs work pretty darned well in many cases.

      Not to discourage you from playing around with interesting password generation ideas, but their practical application is pretty limited.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    41. Re:My Soapbox by swillden · · Score: 1

      Then you should be able to easily recover both of the passwords I mentioned in my other post, right?

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    42. Re:My Soapbox by Moofie · · Score: 1

      Er, maybe he wants to fix all the obvious problems before he publishes it?

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    43. Re:My Soapbox by swillden · · Score: 1

      1) Choose a passphrase of at least ten words. Use the whole damn thing as a password.

      That's a great one. Assuming you don't mind typing all of it :-)

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    44. Re:My Soapbox by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Some of them (e.g. english-like word generation) are just as weighted as your examples, but I throw in some interesting curve-balls to expand the search space substantially, and it works out well.

      I sort of do the same thing in my head. First, I come up with an englsh word. In this case, "elite." Then I come up with another word.. let's say, "dude." Since any respectable dictionary attack is likely to find these words, I alter the spellings accordingly: leet and dood. Finally, to subvert any sort of alternate spelling dictionary approach, I replace letters with numbers which remotely look like the letters they're intended to represent, and combine the words to form my password thus: "1337d00d"

      And to anyone who thinks "NOW I KNOW HIS PASSWORD LOL!!!11," don't you think I'd be smart enough to reverse the order of the words?

    45. Re:My Soapbox by Tribbin · · Score: 1

      "Aaron Sherman: Mushroom Pics! [ajs.com]"

      Who else though it is a site with mushroom-clouds?

      --
      If you mod this up, your slashdot background will turn into a beautiful sunset!
    46. Re:My Soapbox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's even better when you have multiple different systems that have slightly different password requirements (that are enforced by the system), expire out of sync with each other, and are called by similar names.

      We have a situation like that at my work, where they tried to consolidate the passwords so that all the systems can get authentication from a single point, but it seems like I now have *more* passwords to remember, and they all have not quite the same name, so that when I come across a new web app, I'm not sure which of the myriad passwords is required. On top of that, there are still systems that really don't need password security that have it nonetheless, and often have their own password rules. And a few other systems that need password security and don't use the authentication system. Sometimes they're even the same piece of software running on a different machine (for a different project) and you end up with a different username, too.

      They finally started posting a little note in the corner of one of the internal IT web pages that says it's ok to write down your password if you keep it in a secure place...

    47. Re:My Soapbox by Scott+Carnahan · · Score: 1

      The resulting search spaces are about the same size, even though the first example is 9 characters, where the second is 8.

      This is clearly false. The power of including punctuation is that a typical keyboard has about 32 punctuation characters:

      !@#$%^&*()-_=+\|`~[{]};:'",<.>/?

      We can easily calculate the size of password space 2 as (26 + 26 + 10)^8 = 62^8 = 218340105584896 which is about 2x10^14. We can establish a lower bound for password space 1 by counting passwords with no repeated characters:

      (32 punctuation)*(9 spots) *
      * (10*9 numbers) * (8*7 spots) *
      * (26*25 lower) * (6*5 spots) *
      * (26*25 upper) * (4*3 spots) *
      * (87*86 any) * (2*1 spots) = 3303694937088000000

      This is more than 15000 times your password space. Even if we removed one of the "any" spots, making 8-letter passwords, we'd have 4268339712000000 non-repeating possibilities, about 20 times the size of space 1.

      --
      "Your notation sucks!" -- Serge Lang (1927-2005)
    48. Re:My Soapbox by ajs · · Score: 1

      Oh please, if you want to bait me, you're going to have to do better than that.

    49. Re:My Soapbox by ajs · · Score: 1
      Actually, your example is poorly constructed.

      First off, if you replace every "e" with "3", then you've actually shrunk the search space (by folding "e" and "3" into a single token), rather than expanded it. Now, you might have looked at every "e" and tossed a coin, and it just happens to have come up heads every time (are you sure you're not named Rosencrantz?), which is fair, but I would expect a sufficiently random approach to generate something more like:
      13etdo0d
      which is a good start. Of course, it's still a small search space, but you have done something terribly important: you've increased the number of "vowel" characters, which is one of the great weaknesses in using english words for passwords. Now you can also go beyond 8 characters, whcih really helps. Let's try adding a randomly chosen alphanumeric to the end:
      13etdo0dT
      Choosing a random alphanum for the last character multiplied the entire search space by 62, which is a nice benefit for having to remember one extra character. Next, you have "13" at the beginning... since you're going to remeber that as "thirteen" anyway, why not abbreviate it as "TH"? Ok, so the resulting password is
      THetdo0dT
      This is a simple example of how trivial it can be to generate a stronger password with even the most lame-brained of inputs.
    50. Re:My Soapbox by ajs · · Score: 1

      Hmmm.. interesting. Well, at least it sounds like it's getting incrementally better. Progress is good.

    51. Re:My Soapbox by ajs · · Score: 1

      Not quite, though you're right that this math is much more in favor of punctuation than I made it seem, sorry.

      Many of those characters aren't valid in passwords generically because there are systems on which you might have to use the password that don't allow for them (e.g. SysV UNIX will interpret "@" as "kill-line", not the character "@").

      I used to use a sub-set of 13 relatively safe punctuation, but I have recently expanded that to 22, so you're math is much closer for my program now.

      The bottom line, though, is that saying "one character must be punctuation" (13-32 character set) is more limiting than saying "one character must be an alphanum" (62 character set) by quite a significant margin! I should have just said that and left it there. Thanks for fact-checking me.

    52. Re:My Soapbox by Rolgar · · Score: 1

      And if someone figures out the accout IDs of all the root or administrator passwords on your network, and start intentionally causing intentional failures to lockout those accounts?

    53. Re:My Soapbox by ajs · · Score: 1

      You can now download this program in a pre-alpha state. You will have to use your own word-list until I have a place to upload the wordlist without too much pain.

      Here's the link to mkpasswd.

    54. Re:My Soapbox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      defeats it's purpose

      "its".

    55. Re:My Soapbox by Carnildo · · Score: 1

      I type 75wpm.

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
    56. Re:My Soapbox by thoromyr · · Score: 1

      Ah, yes because a product he is currently using should be checked for obvious problems before being used...

      Note that he avoids the question of peer review I brought up. Classic case of burying head in the sand. The idea sounds somewhat interesting, but without actual security experts looking at it its pretty meaningless.

      Its roughly equivalent to the ocassional math proof that looks really good until it hits peer review. Anything complex has a high probability for error and peer review, while not eliminating error, does help in identifying it -- which can lead to resolving errors.

      thoromyr

    57. Re:My Soapbox by Moofie · · Score: 1

      If I were going to publish a math proof (and I'd rather eat glass), I'd want to spend a good long time thinking about it and checking all the things I could check. I'd feel really dumb if somebody found an error that I could have fixed myself.

      He's going to publish it, he says. He's under no obligation to do so until he wants to. What's the problem?

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    58. Re:My Soapbox by thoromyr · · Score: 1

      Hmmm... some people don't get it. That's okay. But just in case you are actually curious and just a little thick:

      1. Post on slashdot claiming x is more secure than y
      2. Offer no proof to back claim
      3. In fact, spout off a little about security basics and then pointedly ignore suggestions about the most basic security tenant: peer review.

      If that's not clear enough I'm afraid I can't help you.

      Cheers,

      thoromyr

    59. Re:My Soapbox by Moofie · · Score: 1

      He's not asking anybody else to buy his product. He mentioned a project he was working on, and people have been jumping up his ass because he hasn't gotten it ready for publication yet.

      All I'm saying is, cut the guy some slack. He isn't doing anything wrong.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
  3. No. by sporty · · Score: 3, Informative

    I can make a horrible to use app that is insecure, and with a bit of effort, make a system that is secure, but easy to use.

    Take pgp and email. There are TONS of plugins for various emali clients to support signing and encrypting email. Yes, encryption can be broken someday, it's true, but if someone made a plugin that bumped it to 16k keys, it's easy and fairly secure. If people are further educated and enforcfed to not share their password and private key, it's quite possible.

    If you make a system that requires dozens of passwords to do things, duh, people will reuse their passwords or make they simple, or worse yet, put them on their monitors.

    --

    -
    ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only

    1. Re:No. by A+beautiful+mind · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Imo, usability is part of security, since both come from the same "trunk": design. You could never design a good, not bloated, usable application without good design, which includes planning good on security aswell...

      --
      It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
      Be yourself no matter what they say
    2. Re:No. by sporty · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Of course you can. Security only means you are who you are and you can do what you can do. Simplest secure app I can think of actually, is ssh. Back it up with something that checks the difficulty of passwords, and you have something that allows access to a foreign system easily. The ease of use of the rest of the system on the other side is totally seperated from the security.

      --

      -
      ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only

    3. Re:No. by Nosf3ratu · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Firefox is more inheritly secure than IE. Firefox is easier to use than IE. Tabs are easier to manage than multiple windows. Not having a "SHOOT THE MONKEY LOL" flash ad pop up when I'm trying to read the news -- or highly sexual suggestive ad for "HOT GIRLS ON UR DESKTOP", for that matter, makes using the internet easier. Letting me know that a popup has been blocked is nice. Being able to just hit F3 to "Find next" intead of keeping a floating Find dialogue GUI covering up the text I'm actually looking for makes it easier to use. Things can be secure and easy to use, it's just not the case usually, in the case of closed source software. Companies that care about maximizing profits from their code don't benefit from tightened security. Deadlines must be met. Customers' mouths must be fed.

      --
      The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori
    4. Re:No. by Zarf · · Score: 1

      You're computer isn't very usable if it gets polluted by viruses :)

      The viruses are users too. Meaning that a perfectly insecure system is very easy to use. Easy for the attacker to use. We didn't specify who was supposed to use the system did we?

      The point of security is to make things hard to use. Hard to use for specific users. In this case we want a system that is easy for humans to use but hard for viruses to use. So we want to make things easy for "Good Users" and hard for "Bad Users" ...

      In your bitTorrent setup you've made it hard to use for attackers who want to get at other ports on your system. You've made life hard for "Bad Users" and not too hard for "Good Users" and that's the challenge of security.

      --
      [signature]
    5. Re:No. by zerguy · · Score: 1

      You bring up a lot of good points. (I also read your post you linked to lower down)
      However, I think that in this situation, "usability" is defined as how easy it is to use for the person who owns or is legally allowed to use the computer.

      --
      **This begins my ever-changing sig
      We need a -1 RTFA moderation option!
      **This concludes my ever-changing sig
    6. Re:No. by NardofDoom · · Score: 1
      During my sophomore year, my prof asked us where most people kept their passwords. A couple people guessed things like "in their brain," trying to sound smart.

      I raised my hand and said "Under their keyboards."

      --
      You have two hands and one brain, so always code twice as much as you think!
    7. Re:No. by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1


      Take pgp and email. There are TONS of plugins for various emali clients to support signing and encrypting email.


      A great example. Let's take PGP. It's been available for over a decade. It has been fully integrated (directly or via plugins or scripts) for years. Yet how much do you see it? And of those you do see using it, who are they? In my experience, it is a small subset of technicaly knowlegable individuals or small groups that require encryption and have been told to use PGP. PGP is not used by the masses. Why?

      Ultimately, clear-text email is easier. Using PGP requires considerably more effort than not. So the general masses, even those who understand the falibility of clear-text email, tend not to use it unless there is a need to go to the added trouble.

      This falls in line with our premis. Increased security impacts usability. That doesn't mean that we couldn't minimize that impact (and PGP's interface couldn't be improved, for example). But even with those considerations, the end user will still feel some kind of impact.
    8. Re:No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And have a Mac syndrome too!

    9. Re:No. by cheezit · · Score: 1

      So, they *tried* to sound smart, and you....? Did you feel anything hit you in the back of the head after the prof said you had the right answer?

      --
      Premature optimization is the root of all evil
    10. Re:No. by arminw · · Score: 1

      ...PGP is not used by the masses....

      The reason most people don't use encryption is because they feel it is not needed for most of their mundane communications.

      Whether in computing or in the physical world, added security is increased work which will only get done when there is a perceived need for it. I remember when I was a youth, we and most neighbors NEVER locked the door on their house where we lived in Palo Alto CA. It was not needed and nothing was ever stolen. Today that is not possible, because people are no longer honest to the degree they were then and so now the houses are locked up tight and have elaborate alarm systems.

      Security and convenience are opposites and that is an ironclad law that no fancy studies by academics with more degrees than a thermometer can refute. The best that can be hoped for is to make the added work for security as little as possible, but it will ALWAYS without fail mean more work for the users.

      When the house did not get locked, we did not need to worry about carrying keys, misplacing them or forgetting them in the house and having to call a locksmith to get in.

      --
      All theory is gray
    11. Re:No. by Zarf · · Score: 1

      However, I think that in this situation, "usability" is defined as how easy it is to use for the person who owns or is legally allowed to use the computer.

      That is a completely arbitrary distinction simmilar to distingishing between English speaking and French speaking computer users. As far as any given computer system is concerned there's no difference between a virus, a daemon, or a human user. The purpose of a security system is to distinguish "Good Users" from "Bad Users" and thus the whole capability of a security system is to distinguish between users.

      That's the whole point. So defining "usability" as "for the person who owns ... blah blah" is counter-productive. We might as well say "usability" is defined as "for the person who likes our computer company and pays us the right fees"

      --
      [signature]
    12. Re:No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is called security by obscurity... or I suppose security by no one gives a crap...

    13. Re:No. by sporty · · Score: 1
      People dont' use software because it's easier not to, thus it's more insecure. That doesn't jibe. If a user wants to encrypt their email, which is NOT REQUIRED, they easily can.


      Take ssh as a counter example. You can't sniff the line (easily) because you are forced to use the security. User feels no impact.

      --

      -
      ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only

    14. Re:No. by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1


      People dont' use software because it's easier not to, thus it's more insecure. That doesn't jibe.


      No, it jibes perfectly well. The point is that PGP requires additional effort that most simply will not take. And therefore, the insecure practice of clear-text email is by far the most commonly used system. And thus we have our inverse relationship - a system (email) that could be better secured (pgp) but generally isn't because of the impact of doing so.


      If a user wants to encrypt their email, which is NOT REQUIRED, they easily can.


      And if you get an encrypted piece of email, you MUST use the system involved to decrypt it. That requires additional effort that has nothing to do with getting a message from point A to B. If you choose not to use PGP to retrieve the message, you lose that message.


      Take ssh as a counter example. You can't sniff the line (easily) because you are forced to use the security. User feels no impact.


      SSH is a very good example. You're right - minimal impact. SSH does an excellent job. However, in every environment I've been in, telnet is still by far more common (although there is always a push to officially adopt SSH). Running SSH still requires accepting an impact compared to the less-secure alternative.
  4. I always found by madaxe42 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    That computers are like women. Insecure, and unusable.

    1. Re:I always found by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh how ironic, a Slashdotter is going to bless us with his vast wisdom and expierence with women. I'm sure you impress the ladies with your knowledge of GCC flags, or perhaps wow them with the latest news on the anime front.

    2. Re:I always found by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Computer's aren't like women.
      For example: I can depend on my computer.

  5. Feature Creep by cgenman · · Score: 4, Interesting

    One of the things that has killed both usability and security of modern computers is feature creep. The ability to run Visual Basic scripts as part of your file browser. Javascript interpretations of file names.

    Most people forget that computers should only have one button. It should be marked "do exactly what the user want me to do," and it should do exactly that. Unfortunately, many systems are not designed from the viewpoint of a new user, but rather the professional user who created the system. There are five or six areas where a command can be found in the windows Explorer interface, and a given command can be in one, two, or all of them. Very occasionally, a command will only be available in the help file. sKill is far more usable than Kill -3.14159265, yet is no less secure. If end-users couldn't see what they couldn't access, they would have a much less cluttered interface and less obvious routes of attack.

    1. Re:Feature Creep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most people forget that computers should only have one button. It should be marked "do exactly what the user want me to do," and it should do exactly that. You're a goddamn user aren't ya? If people like you understood there is no goddamn magic mind reading button, software developers wouldn't go grey quite as early. A computer is a tool. Software is a tool. The tool needs to be designed well but no matter what you'll still need to learn to use it. Try writing software some time and you'll see that if something happens on a machine its not by magic, its because someone painstakingly wrote code that would take care of every possible detail for every scenario. p.s. I don't want to post as AC but I now get this wonderful message from my IP: Due to excessive bad posting from this IP or Subnet, comment posting has temporarily been disabled. If it's you, consider this a chance to sit in the timeout corner . If it's someone else, this is a chance to hunt them down. If you think this is unfair, please email moderation@slashdot.org with your MD5'd IPID and SubnetID, which are "52524bc156f739b73227c6071a3d6a8b" and "c3183499853135736fa03b0b5e243c91" and (optionally, but preferably) your IP number "REMOVED" and your username "syousef".

    2. Re:Feature Creep by Taladar · · Score: 1
      Unfortunately, many systems are not designed from the viewpoint of a new user, but rather the professional user who created the system.
      You could say the same thing the other way round. Most systems these days are designed for the new user without giving much thought to people using the system while knowing what they do. One extreme example is the whole windows configuration infrastructure with the options dialogs and the registry. It is a relatively easy way to change settings the first time but after you changed it one time too often you wish for a simple config file as a backend for these easy-to-use dialogs so you could just copy the config file instead of changing it manually over and over again.
    3. Re:Feature Creep by NardofDoom · · Score: 1

      Yet another example of the advantages of Unix. By making tiny programs that do one thing well, you're presenting the user with fewer choices in each program and giving them more flexibility while maintaining security.

      --
      You have two hands and one brain, so always code twice as much as you think!
    4. Re:Feature Creep by INT+21h · · Score: 1

      What about when the user doesn't know what to do? Do remember that we neither have telepathic machines nor genuine AI...

    5. Re:Feature Creep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most people forget that computers should only have one button. It should be marked "do exactly what the user want me to do"

      This has been a classic misrepresentation of computer systems since their earliest days. Traditionally, the "system analysis problem" boils down to getting human beings to understand that their ordinary implicit grasp of how to do something is not a sufficient expression of an algorithm to do that thing automatically.

      That was true decades ago when (a) computer users were proportionally fewer and significantly more expert than they are today, and (b) computer systems were vastly less complex and easier to understand. Today we have completely untrained users interacting with enormously complex systems as if they were appliances. I'd therefore say that the classical system analysis problem has exploded. In fact, it's so extensive that we hardly think about looking for its edges.

      Certainly, complex systems can be given the appearance of being appliances, and as long as everything functions perfectly, the illusion can be maintained. But this situation is inherently brittle. One obvious and familiar problem is the cognitive disjunction that happens to the user when the illusion somehow goes wrong. However, a more severe class of problems arises when something goes invisibly wrong. Security problems which belong to this class are inherently intractable, because there is no sense in which your "do exactly what the user want me to do" mandate has been violated!

      Security is about explicit consent for everything that is to be done in each of the possible edge cases of a system. If we are to depend on the user to specify this requirement, it means that all these cases have to be enumerated and understood. I'm fine with that, because I have no investment in the belief that a computer is an appliance. I'm willing to receive a system that is configured to be secure by default, and explicitly consent to have certain of its capabilities enabled so that I can do useful work. How do you propose to handle this for a new user?

    6. Re:Feature Creep by cgenman · · Score: 1

      When the user doesn't know what to do, your design has failed. Generally, when the user doesn't know what to do, it is because you've presented them with far too many options and they don't know where to begin. Like I mentioned, the option they're looking for could be in the quicklaunch bar, it could be in the running apps area, it could be in the start menu, it could be in the program menu in the start menu, it could be in the icons at the top of their open folder, it could be in the sidebar of their open folder, it could be in the menus of their open folder, it could be in the control pannels, it could be in the help text, and it could be somewhere else entirely. In Linux it could be in the Kbar, it could be in the Kmenus, it could be on the desktop, it could be in the icons at the tops of the folders, it could be in the menus at the tops of folders, it could be in the distro-specific config control panel, it could be in the KDE / Gnome specific control pannel, it could be in a generalized Linux control pannel, it could exist in a command-line config application, it could live as nothing more than a config file, or it could be something else entirely.

      Of course, a lot of this boils down to the architectures of the machines, and how the obstensibly main interface to them (the file system) is not at all tailored to the end-user experience, but rather for the benefit of the programmers. The whole start menu / programs folder / broken shortcuts / desktop clutter problem comes from trying (and failing) to bolt a more natural interface onto the side of these assorted messes.

      Find out how users heirarchically structure their thoughts, and arrange a computer interface similarly. Or give them the power to do so themselves, and to re-arrange at will. Otherwise the user will never understand the interface, as the interface won't be adapted to their understanding.

  6. You know... by Otter · · Score: 1

    If you're going to say "This question has been around since the beginning of computing, and can even be said to date back to biblical times.", perhaps the footnote could link to the bible text in question, or even an explanation? Konstantin, since you're reading -- what are you talking about? "Shibbolet"? The rock over Laban's well?

    As far as the main point, I'm not sure how newsworthy it is. But it's certainly news to the admins here, who are convinced that more, longer, more complex, more frequently rotated passwords continue to add security with every new layer of complexity.

  7. Not sure this article has a good starting premise. by Singletoned · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Instinct tells us that computer security and computer usability are inversely proportional to each other."

    I don't think this is particularly true. In all walks of life, if something is more usuable, then it tends to be more secure, if only because if it is easier to lock something then people are more likely to lock it.

    If it is easy to use the security features on a computer, people will. A lot of home routers tend to be left in an insecure state simple because securing them is too complicated and it is the type of task that can only be done if you already know how to do it.

    I would be willing to bet that if you did a survey of the broadband routers installed by 'normal' home users, the ones with the highest usability of the firmware, would also tend to be the ones that have been scured the most.

  8. people don't understand a little complexity by xutopia · · Score: 5, Insightful
    People idea of usability is usually that programs work the way they are meant without asking for too much help to do their job. For example a usability feature of Internet Explorer was to automatically execute .doc file viewers when you downloaded them. The action of executing automatically is wonderful and for many is seen as a great usability enhancement. But what happens when the .doc file can be programmed to do all kinds of problems on your computer? What if that automatically executed script within causes havoc with other seemingly non-related things? Then what is the overall usability benefit there? Negative if you ask many people.

    The hassle of viruses, worms and other crap which appear on people's machine causes many usability problems in my book. The more maintenance you need to do on a machine the less usable it is. A windows machine needs plenty of work to keep up with updates, spyware, adwares and viruses. On the other hand the OS which doesn't execute things automatically when you visit a web site doesn't require as much maintenance.

    I always use the analogy of cars. Cars have locks on their doors, then you have to use your key to turn the motor on. Now imagine cars without locks on their doors. One less hassle in the way of doing what you want right? How about no keys to turn on the car. It automatically turns on when you put your seat belt on. Wow! What an amazing car!! Guess what though? That type of car wouldn't stay in the driveway for very long. Well a Windows computer is that type of usable car that doesn't stay in your driveway for very long. Linux might ask you to put a key in the door and turn the engine on with that same key but at least it's still in the driveway when you need it.

    1. Re:people don't understand a little complexity by zx75 · · Score: 1

      Thats why I take public transit. Press one button (put a coin into the slot) and let somebody else do all the work for me!

      --
      This is not a sig.
    2. Re:people don't understand a little complexity by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1
      People idea of usability is usually that programs work the way they are meant without asking for too much help to do their job. For example a usability feature of Internet Explorer was to automatically execute .doc file viewers when you downloaded them. The action of executing automatically is wonderful and for many is seen as a great usability enhancement. But what happens when the .doc file can be programmed to do all kinds of problems on your computer? What if that automatically executed script within causes havoc with other seemingly non-related things?

      That's a fair point, but I would ask whether the problem here is the usability benefit of allowing viewing a different type of document without fuss, or the feature creep of allowing just viewing a document to run arbitrary code that can do any harm to your computer.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    3. Re:people don't understand a little complexity by grumbel · · Score: 1

      ### The action of executing automatically is wonderful and for many is seen as a great usability enhancement. But what happens when the .doc file can be programmed to do all kinds of problems on your computer?

      Aehm, so what? When you remove the automatic loading people will click the link, press the "Open" button and then get the possibily evil .doc loaded, useability is reduced, win in security is extremly close to zero. Fixing the doc-Viewer would be the right thing todo, not making viewing docs more complicated. The thing that makes this whole issue unsecure is programmers lazyness combined with the use of insecure programming languages. Simply sandboxing the viewer and not giving it any access to any part of the system (just give it a framebuffer to render to) is technically perfectly possible, but how many of todays viewers do that? Hardly any at all.

      ### On the other hand the OS which doesn't execute things automatically when you visit a web site doesn't require as much maintenance.

      If you don't execute automatically people will execute manually, you will still have all the same problems as before and in addition to that you will bother the user each and every day with useless click-through dialog boxes, which in itself are an extreme security risk, since people get used to just clicking anything without even reading a little bit.

      ### Now imagine cars without locks on their doors.

      Todays computers are not like cars without locks, they are more like cars that don't drive where the user wants to and bother him with useless click-through messages, no wonder that people will click the wrong button once in a while, but its the failure of the OS that makes such issues so throublesome.

      For computers to be secure they ultimativly MUST have a high grade of usability, without that people will find workarounds, passwords sticked to the monitor or whatever which will render all the theoretical security into practically a complete insecure system.

    4. Re:people don't understand a little complexity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately, Linux is not secure. SELinux is better, but a vanilla kernel is as insecure as Windows.

    5. Re:people don't understand a little complexity by Taladar · · Score: 1

      Active content (as in "scripts") in all types of documents are one of the worst and most useless features MS ever introduced.

    6. Re:people don't understand a little complexity by Techguy666 · · Score: 1

      I hate car analogies. Here's a question relating to the situation you mention:

      You have a key to to open the lock on your car door. You have to use the key to start the motor. You wanted me to imagine a car that doesn't require a key to open the door and doesn't require a key to start the engine... Can we add unbreakable windows and remove the need to require a key to start the car? We've replaced an active security feature (using the key to start the engine) with a passive, hardening of existing security (unbreakable windshields). We've simplified the process for operating the car while maintaining a high level of security.

      Just because you have multiple levels of security doesn't necessarily mean your product is better. In the car key example, your security increases by a multiple of two, rather than a power of two. Increasing the windshields' strength, you've reduced one step (50% decrease in startup time) without significant loss of security.

      Revisiting your argument, why can we not have an operating system that is as usable as Windows with the security of Linux? Somebody already suggested that usability should be a sub-requirement of security. I would argue similarly. There are ways to harden a system invisibly (at least to the user).

    7. Re:people don't understand a little complexity by SanGrail · · Score: 1

      You're talking about accesibility - which while it is *usually* more Usable, Accesibility is not the *same* thing as Usability.

      And someone else has already explained this: "Usability? How about accessibility?" by digitect (217483)
      http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1 29725&thre shold=-1&commentsort=0&tid=172&mode=thread&cid=108 21377
      and the reply JavaRob

      --
      ---- I've fallen, and I can't get up.
  9. Usability? How about accessibility? by digitect · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Architecturally, it is generally accepted that the security of a building is opposed to it's accessibility. Take for example a grocery store. The ease with which customers can get in and out is directly related to how easy it is for the place to be robbed. Movie theater design is similar.

    However, usability overcomes some of these problems by making entrances obvious, door opening automatic, lighting bright, etc. I believe a comnputer interface should be the same. Just because I have to remember a password, doesn't mean that entering it need be. Perhaps many passwords presents a different problem, but one of the supposed ideals behind biometric data is that it can be greatly complex and yet still readily available. But does that mean it's less secure?

    --
    There is no need to use a SlashDot sig for SEO...
    1. Re:Usability? How about accessibility? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2, Informative
      Perhaps many passwords presents a different problem, but one of the supposed ideals behind biometric data is that it can be greatly complex and yet still readily available. But does that mean it's less secure?


      Definitively: yes.

      Don't base your security on something you cannot change easily.

      If your password is compromised, it's a no-brainer to change it. Your biometric data may be harder to compromise, but if it is, how do you change it? Surgery?
      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    2. Re:Usability? How about accessibility? by Idarubicin · · Score: 1
      If your password is compromised, it's a no-brainer to change it. Your biometric data may be harder to compromise, but if it is, how do you change it? Surgery?

      This comes back to the canonical "something you know, something you have, something you are" model. Good security should involve at least two and preferably three of the above:

      Something you know: a PIN or password;

      Something you have: a card, a key, an RFID tag, etc.; and

      Something you are: a biometric--iris scan, facial recognition, fingerprint, a signature.

      Even if one element of the verification system is relatively soft, the others will make it more difficult for troublemakers. You're protected from an individual failure. Even if someone develops a technique to fake your thumbprint (or uses one of the existing ones...) they still also need to get your password and your ID card.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
    3. Re:Usability? How about accessibility? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is already a special meaning attached to the term accessibility, related to things like wheelchair access to buildings, web page accessibility for visually impaired users, and so on.

  10. Article summary by daveschroeder · · Score: 4, Informative

    Q. Are Usability & Security Opposites in Computer Systems?

    A. Yes, for instances where security measures do decrease usability. No, for instances where they don't.

    A2. Yes, for instances when software makers don't care about security, nor about integrating it properly. No, for instances where they show they care about security and want to do it properly.

    Come on, seriously. Sometimes, various measures for security make things "harder" to use. But there are so many things which define "security". Authentication, authorization, encryption, access, and each at several different levels.

    The ultimate answer is, yes, security and usability are opposites when the responsibility for the security measures rests entirely upon the end user. Simple example: Make a user have a password, and they'll make it their dog's name (not secure). Force it to be too complex, and they'll forget it (not usable). Mandate that it be changed every week AND be too complex, and they'll write it down (not secure or usable).

    When the security measures are administered by a skilled external entity (such as a knowledgeable and sensible IT staff) or integrated seamlessly into applications and operating systems (by knowledgeable and sensible software makers), they can be "usable". In fact, "usable" is the wrong word: it should be "transparent".

    There are ways to make good security - whether it's for an entire organization or a single workstation - usable, and non-intrusive. It just takes someone with the skill, knowledge, and foresight to do it.

    1. Re:Article summary by Jaime2 · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, A2 seems to be the norm for many software companies.

      Well implemented security will be easier to manage than a less secure system. Take biometrics for example. You can't forget your fingerprint. In my mind, a security system is by definition poorly designed if is greatly reduces useability or accessibility. The only way to maintain a difficult (to use) security system is to hire a bunch of people to handle the issue that arise or scare the heck out of the users into better behavior (which costs both money and morale).

    2. Re:Article summary by arminw · · Score: 1

      ...You can't forget your fingerprint....

      True, but fingerprints CAN be copied and fingerprint systems have been fooled. Now when such a compromise happens, how does the legitimate owner of that fingerprint get proper access again? Security ALWAYS is a tradeoff. Biometric security seems easier, but has problems of its own.

      --
      All theory is gray
    3. Re:Article summary by Jaime2 · · Score: 1

      Ah.....
      I said easier to manage, not "problem free". The management issues caused by having a one day password expiration will outweight any security gained. But, the management of a well designed system (biometrics was just an example of the foundation of one) will cost far less than what you gain through enhanced security.

      Fingerprints are one example, smart cards are another, even a good LDAP or Kerberos system, if maintained well and well integrated into all or most applications will both increase security and reduce administration, while not reducing useability or availability.

  11. Hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Usability, security and cheapness. You can have any two

    1. Re:Hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Show me where!

    2. Re:Hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Well, in my case, I let them pick 1.

      Security, when done right, isn't always cheap.
      Usability, when done right, isn't always cheap.
      Crap, now that's cheap.

    3. Re:Hmm by legirons · · Score: 1

      "Usability, security and cheapness. You can have any two"

      unless you run Windows

  12. What a silly question. by grub · · Score: 2, Insightful


    Can the two continue growing together?

    I've used OpenBSD on my desktop for ages. Pick a nice WM and you're set.

    Security does not preclude usability.

    --
    Trolling is a art,
    1. Re:What a silly question. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've used OpenBSD on my desktop for ages.

      Necrophile!!

  13. Depends by Prince+Vegeta+SSJ4 · · Score: 1

    Security might be a negative as far as usability is concerned initially. However, that must be weighed against downtime as a result of s security breach. Once this is taken into account, we may have a better overall picture of true usability.

  14. No. by zerguy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You're computer isn't very usable if it gets polluted by viruses :)

    Seriously though, there is an inconvenience, but that's all. I have to configure my router to let BitTorrent through, but the fact that I have to do this gives me an immense boost to my computer's security, by virtue of the fact that nothing is sent to my comp's ports unless I tell the router to let it through.

    --
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    We need a -1 RTFA moderation option!
    **This concludes my ever-changing sig
  15. The more things change...... by samberdoo · · Score: 1

    Wasn't that the election where it was so easy for all those dead people voted securely?

  16. Re:Not sure this article has a good starting premi by NeoSkandranon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I agree with you about the broadband firmware, but you would probably also find that the most "secure" routers are also the ones behind which it is the gretest hassle to play games, use p2p apps and various other direct-connect items, therefore its usablity to the average user is less.

    --
    If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
  17. No, I call that bad intuition. by dnoyeb · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Useability is what happens after security is cleared. Securitys whole point is to give useability to those that are authorized to have it. If security is interfering with useability, then you will find that even people with authorization will start looking for ways to subvert it. Thus, any security that interfers with useability is bad security.

    Its kind of like welding car doors shut and calling it more secure. It is until people start entering through the windows on a daily basis.

    Just look at CD copy security measures that get cracked in minutes because they interfere with useability.

    1. Re:No, I call that bad intuition. by henrycoderm · · Score: 4, Funny

      Isn't people entering through the Windows the main problem?

    2. Re:No, I call that bad intuition. by mikael · · Score: 1

      The best example I can think of, is the inability for CD-writers to make UDF/DirectCD formats readable in IS-9660 format unless the user has administrator permissions. I prefer the security of users not having admin permissions all the time, but the hassle of having to switch users or logging out and back in again, has led to many users demanding admin permissions as default.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    3. Re:No, I call that bad intuition. by Eccles · · Score: 1

      Heck, a better example is any one of a number of Windows apps that write datafiles to the program directory. Windows XP Professional allows you to modify the permissions of subdirectories to allow non-administrators to run these programs, but I can't find any way to do this in Windows XP home.

      --
      Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
    4. Re:No, I call that bad intuition. by eno2001 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The usability problem occurs during authorization. People don't like to remember complex passwords, so they pick something easy to remember (and figure out) or they write it down on a picec of paper. Or if you use a token authentication system like RSA tokens (with the random number for logging in) then you have added a level of complexity that most users are confounded by. We get calls where I work on a frequent basis because the users can't deal with the tokens. With SSH and static keys, you have the option of using a passphrase. But many people opt for a blank passphrase so there is nothing to type. Here is the ideal:

      1. You touch a computer, it knows who you are by some mystical means and grants you access.
      2. You don't need to remember anything. No passwords, no voice print, no finger print, no retinal scan, nothing. It just knows who you are.
      3. Once it's determined who you are, then it knows what you are allowed to do.

      What is needed is an authentication mechanism that works in the same way that we "authenticate" our friends and family to interact with us. If you see your wife, husband, girlfriend, boyfriend or child, you have a predfined "access list" that allows them access to your resources. The authentication is that you know your relationship to them. A girlfriend or boyfriend may allow sexual contact with their partner that they wouldn't allow to their child or parent. Pretty basic, but that's what most people (deep down) want from their machines. (No. Not the sex you idiot, the access to a resource) Until machines can actually recognize us (which probably won't happen until they know themselves), I think we're going to have this usability/security problem.

      --
      -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
    5. Re:No, I call that bad intuition. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Until machines can actually recognize us (which probably won't happen until they know themselves)"

      Children need not be self-aware/self-conscious to recognize their mother and differentiate her from strangers.

    6. Re:No, I call that bad intuition. by dustinbarbour · · Score: 1

      Until machines can actually recognize us (which p

      Computers are fully capable of recognizing people based on an image of the face. We already have inexpensive fingerprint identification (which I find to be wholly acceptable as a means of authentication). I cannot really think of any reason why face recognition hasn't made its way to the desktop. Hell, I just wrote a basic face recognition program for my digital signals processing class! Hrmmm.. perhaps if I began working on this..

    7. Re:No, I call that bad intuition. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Pretty basic, but that's what most people (deep down) want from their machines. (No. Not the sex you idiot, the access to a resource)"

      I want a sex robot. Preferably one that looks and feels like Jennifer Love Hewitt. Btw, if the sterilization is good enough, it won't matter if it still isn't very restrictive in its access list.

    8. Re:No, I call that bad intuition. by eno2001 · · Score: 1

      You're funny. ;P Still an idiot, but funny. At least you've got a good attitude and you made me laugh. ;P

      --
      -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
    9. Re:No, I call that bad intuition. by eno2001 · · Score: 1

      True, but their access lists aren't fully developed and their security mechanisms are very limited (crying for example). A baby might be able to determine that a stranger is not a parent, but there is little else it can do to protect itself due to the undeveloped access list. A baby doesn't know not to let a stranger do something they shouldn't. As far as being self-aware, I don't think a child reaches that point until it has a well developed access list. Otherwise the access list is pointless.

      --
      -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
    10. Re:No, I call that bad intuition. by eno2001 · · Score: 1

      However, I'm not talking about biometrics. I'm talking about a self contained system that has consiousness (or at least our approximation of it since we may not even know what consiousness is). This is a machine that actually knows what it can do and understands why someone would want to utilize it's resources for bad or for good. Based on that knowledge, it's access lists and an undestanding of who it's dealing with, (not based on any kind of contemporary biometric scans) then it would authenticate securely. It knows who you are because it understands its relationship to you and it bases it's relationship on long term interaction and memories of you. It might use facial recognition, but that would only be a minor part of the scheme. Humans recognize based on more esoteric knowledge than just looking at a face. Otherwise they'd be fooled by a photograph or video.

      --
      -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
    11. Re:No, I call that bad intuition. by BranMan · · Score: 1

      Actually, you can do that today, with readily available technology - well, more or less. Just set up a proximity card reader to the computer, and have everyone carry a prox card. When you sit down in front of a computer it knows it's you and grants your your unique access. No passwords, nothing to remember (except to take the prox card with you).

      Now you just have the problem of someone stealing the prox card (or counterfeiting it). Shifts the security from something you know to something you have.

      Maybe implants? With cryptographic exchanges to defeat counterfeiting? That might be a solution. Good for Big Brother uses too.

    12. Re:No, I call that bad intuition. by eno2001 · · Score: 1

      Not good enough for the reasons you noted. The machine needs to actually understand its relationship to you. It's knowledge of you can be based on many things, but they need to be intrinsic properties that are unique to you. Again, just like I said before, the machine needs to know you in the same way that your family and friends know you.

      --
      -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
  18. Right. by RandoX · · Score: 1

    Because nothing makes a system more usable than being completely pwned.

  19. Re:Not sure this article has a good starting premi by nine-times · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I think what we really perceive is that "security" and "ignorant/inattentive accessibility" are inversely proportional. Meaning, how secure your computer is is inversely proportional to how easily you can access it without having any idea of what you're doing. If things are secure, you need to know how to operate things, and have passwords memorized, and you generall need to pay attention to what you're doing. Plus, in general, inaccessable means more secure (all else being equal). But once you have access, I don't see any reason why a secure system can't be useable.

    Perhaps you could word it more meaningfully as "security vs. freedom". Those two generally have to battle it out, and not just when it comes to computers. For a computer example, if you secure a machine from user tampering, the users won't be able to change everything they want. If you don't allow users to delete files, then they might not always be able to delete the files they want. However, this need not affect usability when it comes to useful tasks.

    Speaking of freedom and security, someone wanna lay out the Franklin quote? (I bet it shows up in this post before the day is done).

  20. Security & Usability Opposites? by demon_2k · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Security & usability opposites? No, an application can be secure and just as usefull.

    Security & ease of use on the otherhand. Security is an inconvinience when it comes to ease of use.

    Look at automatic login (In Windows XP or Linux) for example. Convinient? Yes. Easy? Reasonable easy to setup. Secure? Unless the console is in a bunker bunker with you and no one else. Not really.

  21. You're mis-quoting me. I called it... by Zarf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I called it the Security to Convenience scale. Where 10 is perfectly secure and 1 is perfectly easy to use. However, in this notion security features can be seen as usability bugs.

    I've already discussed this humorously here. The point being that if you really want to you can see things like BSODs as security features. Difficulty in configuration can be seen as a usability feature because it prevents security.

    If you squint hard enough all bugs are features and all features are bugs. This view point is utterly useless in the real world, however, strangely orthogonal it may be. It still bears thought for the system designer to consider that his perfectly secure system may render the system so close to useless as to make it practically so... and thus cost him his job either directly or indirectly.

    --
    [signature]
  22. It's simply a matter of time by Baavgai · · Score: 1

    In the most basic case almost any security requires processing overhead. Authentication, encryption, validation, etc. No matter how you approach this, there's more work being done than if you didn't care. This makes a slower system. Longer response times impact usability directly.

    This doesn't really hit on a side issue. Secure systems take a hell of a lot more work to design and implement. If a system is being developed on a schedule, chances are many minor enhancements that could have been incorporated in a product will be orphaned by lack of resources do to security requirements. This software is inevitably less functional do to the division of labor across the scope of the project.

  23. Well, here's an experiment you can do at home... by Weaselmancer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Are Usability & Security Opposites in Computing?

    I propose the following experiment. Yes, yes I know there are service packs and patches available, that's why I'm calling this an experiment.

    Take a Windows XP CD and load it onto a system you're not using for anything important at the moment. Do not connect it to a network in any way, shape, or form. Load the PC up with applications. Roughly judge load times, mouse and keyboard times...mess around with it a while and see how responsive it is. Not too bad, right? Fairly useable.

    Now, plug your netcard directly into your net. No firewall. I suggest plugging the box directly into a cablemodem. Wait 24 hours.

    Notice any difference? This is exactly why Usability and Security are NOT opposites. Any box that's running 99% cpu with malware and viruses is damn near unusable.

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
  24. It certainly doesn't by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I couldn't agree more. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that usability is a necessary minimum requirement for security. After all, a very large proportion of attacks succeed because of a simple human failure, not an electronic one.

    For example, if banks would stop constantly requiring me to remember seventeen different ID numbers, "memorable" words and phrases, I might notice the e-mail they send out reminding me not to give out my PIN number to anyone else.

    On a more techie level, languages where it's easy to code properly make careless errors like allowing buffer over-runs or SQL injection less likely.

    At the heart of good usability are principles like KISS and not giving the user unnecessary chances to go wrong. These don't exclude giving the user power, but what better partner for keeping a user safe than not giving them silly chances to do dangerous things?

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    1. Re:It certainly doesn't by Taladar · · Score: 1
      For example, if banks would stop constantly requiring me to remember seventeen different ID numbers,...
      That is one of the worst examples concerning RL-Usability I know. Why can't they keep their databases primary keys to themselves and just identify me by my name, adress and birthdate? This goes not only for banks but also for the government and most companies which instantly assign you a customer ID.
    2. Re:It certainly doesn't by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      Well, for the exact reason they have a primary key. There is no guarantee that combination is unique. Unless by address, you mean address, city, state, country, postal code... Then you run into some convienence issues. I mean, which would you rather enter every time you go to your online banking? UN of 22435623 and a password? Or Jane Doe 22445 North Ave New York, NY USA 10003 and a password? Plus as security goes, your name and address are pretty easily guessable whereas a somewhat random UID isn't, so then an attacker not only has to get your password,but UID.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
  25. Security vs convenience by jacksonps4 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There is often a trade-off between security and convenience rather than usability. It is necessary to strike the right balance between the two. There is little point in adding layer upon layer of security for something which is not worth protecting. Equally, a little inconvenience can be justified for the protection of something valuable.

  26. You can have both... by magarity · · Score: 1

    The phrase in development is 'cheaper, faster, better: pick two' can be modified for the topic at hand: 'secure, useable, cheaper, faster: pick two'

  27. Re:Not sure this article has a good starting premi by nine-times · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Oh, and other thing to throw into the mix: anonymity. The relation between freedom/usability/accessibility/security and anonymity is interesting. Like, we might be able to increase security if we all had RFID tags implanted under the skin, and that might be very usable and accessible without impinging directly on freedom, but it keeps you from being anonymous, which might indirectly impinge on certain sorts of freedom.

    I realize this wasn't meant to be about politics, but the topics are connected. When you abstract ideas about computer security to general axioms, I think you'll find that they have meaning in personal/political security.

  28. car metaphore by hey · · Score: 1

    The car metaophore should be banned!
    Its like you are lying on the ground on front of my car comparing something in computing to cars and I drive over you.

  29. security does not affect usability by OmniVector · · Score: 2, Interesting

    you're confusing usability in this case with convience. there's a distinct, yet important difference. usability means something is easy to do and use -- for example it's easy to install an app in mac os x. you just drag a .app file to the applications folder. this is far more usable than a windows wizard installer (less complex, less steps, less reading, less chance for error, etc). however, lets say i set my account up to be a "Standard" user in mac os x. now when i perform this operation, i get an authentication dialog that asks me for an administrator username and password. this is an inconvience. the usabilty has not suffered, but an added dialog to keep security intact has been added. they do not conflict directly.

    increased security only has the effect of reducing convience. i could make myself an administrator and never get a password dialog. this wouldn't have any effect on the original usability of the system. likewise, i could encrypt all my ram and swap space. this would increase security, but have no real effect on usability. security is implemented with policies, and as long as those polices are reasonable (i.e. require a methodology that isn't directly in conflict with a program trying to do it's job) then the only thing it will do is require the user to enter additional passwords when designed properly. a poorly designed system (windows) doesn't implement this policy well. doing operations like copying files to admin-writable-only folders in windows is an example of a poorly implemented policy. in mac os x, i'd get an authentication dialog. in windows, i simply would get an error, with no added dialog to request a username and password.

    --
    - tristan
    1. Re:security does not affect usability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You ever heard of a fuckin spellcheck? Or a capital letter for this matter? This isn't a fuckin AOL chatroom.

  30. So does that make... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Jakob Nielsen a major security risk?

  31. Compare to non-IT situations by ites · · Score: 1

    Like burglar alarms in a building.

    The use of alarms has a definite impact on ease of use. In our building, the number of people coming and going at different times makes it impossible to secure the entire building. There are alarms but they don't get used.

    So here, usability and security are in conflict, and usability wins.

    However, we've created a secure zone which has our real offices (as compared to the large insecure garage space which is basically a place for parties and such), and here we have very secure windows, and a nice secure door with keypad and ID badges.

    In the case of the offices, the keypad / ID badges are actually simpler than anything else. Swipe your badge, door opens, system registers you.

    So security and usability can go together, but it has to be realistic and probably, appropriate. Trying to secure a large perimeter with too much traffic is an uphill struggle. Securing a well-defined perimeter with just one or two entry points is much more realistic.

    Security is about making choices and one of the most important is: what not to secure.

    It's the difference between the garden and the house.

    --
    Sig for sale or rent. One previous user. Inquire within.
  32. Security, Ease of Use, Ease of Design -- choose 2 by stevelinton · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There are brilliant designs that are both simple to use and secure (and usually simple to build into the bargain). The problem is that there are not so many
    brilliant designers out there. Coming up with these designs often involves novel functional decompositions, new UI metaphors, unusually structures interfaces or something else that is hard to get to by "normal" design processes.

  33. Happens every day.... by THESuperShawn · · Score: 1

    As a performance and security analyst, I deal with this every day. You honestly cannot have the best of both worlds.

    Especially in the end-users opinion...security hampers performance. Harder/longer passwords, firewall policies that restrict surfing and streaming- they don't see it as secure, they just think the network sucks!

    From the IT staff's point of view, these are not seen as performance issues, they are security enhancements

    Stateful packet insopection, Intrusion detection, port-knocking- the more secure we get, the more cycles required to execute a task. Absolute security and ansolute performance cannot currently co-exist. One is going to have make concessions.

    --
    Repant. Thy end is sheer.
  34. Simple answer. by tomstdenis · · Score: 1

    Wrong question.

    First off, discount all "insecure" solutions to a problem. Now judge the remaining solutions.

    It's really easy to write a "simple to use" insecure OS [for instance] then one where the user must actually login, use privilege separation, etc...

    For instance, saying "oh GPG is too hard to use compared to MegaSuperUltraCrypt 9000 (tm)" is kinda meaningless if the latter is hopelessly insecure by comparison.

    Does security require work on the part of the user? Yes. There is no way getting around that. You have to carry a token and/or memorize a password for authentiation [for instance]. Not much you can do to get around that.

    One of the big things that peeves me about customers is when they say thing like "we don't want to have to do that" and the only legitimate answer you can give them is "you're going to have to and this is why."

    So far I've been lucky and with a clear explanation they agree to my designs [in all 3 consulting gigs I've had...] but being patient is key I guess.

    Tom

    --
    Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    1. Re:Simple answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      biometrics

    2. Re:Simple answer. by tomstdenis · · Score: 1

      Biometrics alone aren't sufficient and aren't really suitable for all tasks.

      Proper security relies on several credentials, e.g. things you have, things you know, etc...

      a pin + biometrics for example, could be much more secure than biometrics alone. pin + smart card + biometrics would be even better.

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
  35. No. by Raven42rac · · Score: 3, Funny

    We mac users have the best of both worlds.

    --
    I hate sigs.
  36. Synergy by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 3, Funny

    Good security fosters good usability, and good usability fosters good security. When either is considered a-holistically, it results in a detrimental relationship to the other. We all need to learn how not to think like a-holes.

    --
    You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
  37. Tradeoffs by myc18 · · Score: 1

    There cannot be 100% security in anything. If there is ever such a thing as 100% security, then there is 0% usability. For example, the way to secure an airport 100% is to have no airport, but that is unfeasible. By perception, usability and security are two opposite directions. However, you can have usability and security in a happy-medium. It is difficult, but it can be done if you understand and accept both usability and security risks (many tradeoffs involved).

  38. That depends... by Doesn't_Comment_Code · · Score: 1

    That really depends if you are talking about industrial computers, or your grandma's computer.

    In the case of your grandma, the computer should be secure enough to not be infected or hacked, and that's about it. There's no national security information on her hard drive, and no one will be particularly interested in stealing her grandson's birthday pictures. Too much security at the user level will get in her way. Security below the user level is just what she needs.

    On the other end of the spectrum you've got a team of trained tech staff. They have a data vault with really important information. Their security precautions should be extreme. But that doesn't hurt usability, because these guys are trained to work in this environment, and don't mind it. To them security tools enhance usability.

    I understand the point of the article, and I can see the point. I think they should be looking at making security happen "under the hood". That's what they're really getting at, I think.

    --

    Slashdot Syndrome: the sudden, extreme urge to correct someone in order to validate one's self.
  39. Symantec says "Yes!" by asdfasdfasdfasdf · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I installed Norton Internet Security a few weeks back, and by default it kills all connections to shared resources... I've got a linux computer that's basically just a samba drone, and for whatever reason, Norton keeps blocking access.. Eventually, I had to turn all share blocking off to keep it from happening intermittently. There's no user-friendly way of telling it during install or configuration, "hey idiot, I'm connected to several drives/printers for sharing, open up those ports" It doesn't even bother to ask, it just shuts em down.. And did it again after a liveupdate.

    On my XP box, I'm paranoid enough about trojans and activex lunacy that I like to monitor in realtime what is asking for net access and block it accordingly, but at the price of these anoyances, I almost uninstalled it.

    1. Re:Symantec says "Yes!" by gcaseye6677 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Norton products are perfect examples of security made so cumbersome as to be useless. Every machine I've ever used with Norton Internet Security has some major function, such as network connectivity, disabled until Norton is shut down. After enough tinkering, you can get Norton to work and still allow yourself to use the internet, or print, or whatever. As soon as you change anything, time to reconfigure Norton. Then there's the incessant popup nagging reminders or alerts. I'll take viruses and spyware over Norton anyday. I just wonder how much longer this company will be able to continue living off their reputation, since it is the only way they can get people to buy their overpriced bloatware.

  40. ssh anyone? by Synn · · Score: 1

    It replaced telnet/rsh and wrapped your X session so you no longer had to deal with xhost this and xhost that.

    It also let X pierce firewalls.

    1. Re:ssh anyone? by scottking · · Score: 1

      i don't really think SSH qualifies as "usable" in the sense that "usable" these days seems to apply to "could my grandmother use it?".

      --
      scott king
  41. direct relation... by ambienceman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think the Macintosh OS demonstrates the direct relationship of the two pretty well, even though other companies may not.

  42. krozinov spam by 44BSD · · Score: 1

    I'm glad the OP thinks his papers deserve a world-wide audience. However, I would argue that it is generally considered bad form to tout one's intellectual accomplishments so nakedly. That's two in one day for this guy.

    1. Re:krozinov spam by SpyPlane · · Score: 1

      I thought the same thing when I saw the first post, then came a second one (this one). Now it is getting out of hand. I'm preparing comments already for all of his other papers on his webpage, because they will obviously make it to slashdot within the next couple of days.

      --
      "We need a fourth law of Robotics: Stop Fingering My Wife"
    2. Re:krozinov spam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Posting anonymously for bloddy good reasons...

      I know this guy, in fact, I quite litterally went to high school with him.

      And when it comes to his ego, this is very par for the course.

      And his delusions of granduer aside, having read TFA, it doesn't really say much of anything. Rather it's just a rehash of common knowlege (it smells suspiciously like a "Technical Writing" class paper)

      and Third, just in case you're reading this Konstantin, I'll be sure to tell Doc that you still haven't learn't how to format a document properly/nicely :-)

      P.S. oh, and I have to agree with the parent-poster... let other people post your stuff... don't post it yourself

  43. Usability and security are opposing forces, iff by Jerf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Usability and security are opposing forces, if and only if the program has optimal usability and security. To make such a program more usable, by definition it requires removing a feature, or compromising security to make it easier. To make such a program more secure, it requires either removing a feature or adversely affecting usability by adding another hoop to jump through.

    Note they aren't strictly speaking opposing forces, since "remove features" can both enhance security and usability. It's just that if your program is already optimal and you need to push it harder, something else has to give.

    You don't have to be a cynic to observe few programs are optimal, and therefore most software engineers don't have to think in this way. Thus, as a practical matter in the current environment, no, they are not opposed. But they should be.

    (As a PS, I'd define security as "Ensuring the computer does what the owner wants, no more, and no less, with the computer owner having all relevant information about and control over what the computer does." But that definition has yet another idealogical focus, no?)

  44. Re:Not sure this article has a good starting premi by bitmason · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Paypal's CEO, Peter Thiel, once said "There's a trade-off between privacy, security, and convenience, you can have any two at 100 percent, but the third will be almost nonexistent." Convenience is closely related to usability.

    This is obviously a simplification, however there's a lot of truth to it. For example, at some level, any form of authentication is going to degrade privacy at some level.

  45. Are Colours & Contrast Opposites in Slashdot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  46. Depends what came first. by jellomizer · · Score: 1

    From my experience it is a lot easier to make a good interface on top of a good secuiry model. Then to make a good security model on top of a good interface.

    If you build the interface around the security it usualy end up with a far more usable program. For example say somone doesn't have access to a field on the program Knowing this I can make the interface to hide or not even load the button and make all the other objects fit without looking like the feature is there for people w/o access. Conversly if you put the security after the interface then it is a lot more work because and often to save time you usually but little blots in your code say after they click the button saying you do not have access to this field.

    A good security model first can actually help the interface in development because it can allow users to use the program easier without being destracted by features they shouldn't use or don't know how to use.

    This is the reason why traditional *nixs are considered hard to use and Windows is insecure. They were build with the interface first then they added security to it. Unix spent more time adding security so the interface has declined vs. Windows who kept the interface and let the security slide.

    But systems like OS X have good security and interface because when they designed the OS they made the interface to work ontop of its security model and not in spite of it.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  47. The two opposies by erroneus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The two opposites are "Complexity vs. Security." Those two exist as opposites only through casual analysis and not as a hard rule. The root of the problem being bad programming. (No finger-pointing needed... the culprit might be a lazy programmer or a demanding boss who cares more about the deadline than quality tested code.)

    The fact seems to be that the more complex something becomes, the easier it is to break. So in reality, we should expect to see security improvements with decreased complexity in the U.I. As for other methods of hacking software (such as non-UI doors like APIs and network related exploits) the same rules might apply where keeping the complexity to a minimum might easily lead into less opportunity for exploits and thereby improving security.

    Frankly, from where I sit (a non-developer with a basic understanding of programing concepts) I think security issues arrise from really bad programming habits and it's a damned shame that it's just not taught in school... for example, getting graded on your code by avoiding exploitable coding practices and such. As it is, security-minded coding is something that is gained through experience...usually a bad experience.

  48. Re:Well, here's an experiment you can do at home.. by rednip · · Score: 1
    I propose the following experiment...
    Your in good company, but the SANS Institute beat you to the punch.
    --
    The force that blew the Big Bang continues to accelerate.
  49. Re:Well, here's an experiment you can do at home.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you perform your experiment with a cable or DSL modem that does NAT (like most do nowadays), exactly SQUAT will happen.

    Now if you start using that system to browse porn sites with IE and open every spam you receive in OE, your system will perform like SCAT.

  50. Simplicity by uid100 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I've said before and I'll say it again.

    "Simplicity is the key to security and usability"

    Problems arise in both area's when you try cramming in features at the last minute. Scope/Feature creep are what makes systems (almost anything) indecure/unreliable and ultimatly unusable.

    --
    ...yup...
  51. Re:Not sure this article has a good starting premi by gmuslera · · Score: 1
    His "instinct" seems to have been trained by the security blackholes that Microsoft produced, joined by being them the only applications that he runs because the others are "not intuitive". I would change "instinct" with "according with my experience" so let other people think in its own "intuitive" way. My experience with OS/2, BeOS, Mac OS X, and Linux is that they are pretty secure, and have environment/applications pretty intuitive, so if i never had used any microsoft OS my instinct would say me that safety and usability are usually paired.

    Mixing generalities with bad examples are very common there. He put the entire idea of P2P as "unsafe" because some P2P applications have security holes, and the same with web serving as a lot of windows password files could be found out there. Maybe there are activities that are unsafe by default (i.e. jumping from airplanes, specially when without parachutes), but that is not something that can be generalized so easily.

  52. Re:Well, here's an experiment you can do at home.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Installed Windows XP this weekend. Found where I could download the SP2 patch on my linux box... but of course the windows update page only lets you in if you are on a Microsoft Operating System.

    So I hook up my DSL connection to the windows box. Go to the microsoft page with firefox. Find out that not only the OS but also the browser has to be a Microsoft product. By the time I get around to loading up Internet Explorer I have the "system error, shutting down in 45 seconds" notice on my screen that lets me know some blaster-esque virus already got to my system. I was online for about 5 minutes *at most*.

    So I reinstalled, downloaded the only non-windows-update available version of SP2 (the "developer" edition that allows installed over the network , I think) and installed that prior to going online.

    To Microsoft's credit, it worked... for now.

    I however fully expect to have to reinstall everything from scratch in a few months when the next gaping hole is discovered.

  53. Re:Well, here's an experiment you can do at home.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ok, I know, I used 'your' incorrectly. It should be "you're"

  54. an interesting idea I had by Illissius · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I think I'll quote a post I made at dot.kde.org just a few hours ago, as it seems relevant:

    In my opinion, the default level of security should be (the goal of) immunity to remote attacks. Whatever sacrifices necessary to achieve that should be made, and if additional security can be obtained at no cost, then there's not reason not to have it, but additional sacrifices shouldn't be made beyond that point. If someone gains physical access to the machine, well... if someone gains physical access to their TV, they can just walk off with it, and you don't see people chaining TVs to their walls to avoid the scenario. So really, it's a nonissue for 99%+ of the userbase -- and the rest can take further measures themselves (encrypting the entire drive, whatnot). So what I'd like to see is that users have to enter a password when logging in, and never again after that, unless they specifically choose to. Autogenerating highly secure passwords seems like a good idea -- perhaps Konqueror could try and detect registration forms, and fill in the password field(s) in advance? Or either way, the method to do so should be in plain sight and require minimal effort. Another idea, in order to get rid of the login password hassle entirely and increase security in the process: autogenerate a hugely secure password, and then let the user put it on a USB thumb/pen/whatever drive, flash card, floppy disk, heck, CD, or whatever media they have, and then use it in the same way as a car key. Press the power switch to turn on the computer, and when they insert the 'key', automatically login the user who's key it is. And when they remove the 'key', automatically log them out. That would be rather nice, don't you think? (There should also be a way to recover if the key is lost -- probably just forcing or forcefully suggesting the user to make backups, but that's getting into details.) (And again, if someone manages to steal it, well, credit cards and car keys can be stolen as well. There's no need to be paranoid to such a degree.)
    --
    Work is punishment for failing to procrastinate effectively.
    1. Re:an interesting idea I had by anubi · · Score: 1
      Here's the basic problem as I see it.

      The instant you make it possible to recover from a "lost" or "stolen" key, you also make it possible to "recover" anyone elses legit and unstolen key.

      So if you lose your access to data in a totally secure system, you cannot expect anyone else to have even the remotest capability of helping you recover.

      The instant anyone ever gets in a position to give you your data back, he's also in a position to give your data to anyone else.

      How many people here have lost your stuff in a blowfish? I've lost a few. If you've lost your access code, you might as well forget about ever seeing your stuff again. Really secure, but unfriendly as hell if you mess up.

      --
      "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]

    2. Re:an interesting idea I had by Illissius · · Score: 1

      Yes, I'm aware of this. Which is why I suggested the best method would probably be to just make a lot of backups ;).
      The other issue I see is that it may not be possible (in fact it's probably not) to securely store the password on the 'key', without requiring yet another password (which would be pointless), in which case having the key inserted while the user is logged in is not such a good idea. If that's true, scrap the part about removing it to log out, and just insert to log in, remove immediately afterwards, and logout via the standard GUI way.

      --
      Work is punishment for failing to procrastinate effectively.
    3. Re:an interesting idea I had by enjo13 · · Score: 1

      I think your missing an important part of the metaphor.

      A key is difficult to duplicate. If you have your car key stolen, you generally KNOW it was stolen or at the very least that it's gone (same with a credit card). While it's possible to duplicate a key, it requires relatively cumbersome and complex equipment and several minutes to duplicate.

      The problem is that in electronic media it is relatively easy to borrow a USB key, copy it's contents, and replace the key all without anyone knowing it happened. Then a physical access attack becomes far to easy.. as your natural defenses would have never been raised in the first place.

      I actually like the idea of a physical device to log you in, but I think it needs to look more like a standard car key.. it needs to have physical properties that identify the user, not just electronic ones.

      --
      Turn s60 photos into awesome videos with mScrapbook for all S60 3rd edition phones!
    4. Re:an interesting idea I had by e.smith · · Score: 1
      If someone gains physical access to the machine, well... if someone gains physical access to their TV, they can just walk off with it, and you don't see people chaining TVs to their walls to avoid the scenario. So really, it's a nonissue for 99%+ of the userbase

      Bad analogy. Even ignoring the fact that the computer costs more than the TV.

      1. The TV theft costs me a few hundred dollars, worst case (if not covered by insurance). The computer theft may cost me all my family photos, years of archived emails, difficult-to-reconstruct work documents, financial records, and even potentially embarrassing materials in some unknown person's hands. A much greater downside risk means greater security is appropriate.

      2. If someone steals the TV I know it. If someone dumps my data to a CD (or accesses my data remotely over the network) I may not even know it. See #1: data theft can be massively damaging to me, perhaps even more if I am unaware (so I can't cancel my credit cards etc.)

    5. Re:an interesting idea I had by anubi · · Score: 1
      Making lots of backups... my choice too.

      I always felt better knowing my important work had two, maybe three backups. I have my work backed up on not only the company's machine, but I have it at home as well, as well as occasionally burning everything so far off to a CDROM, which I often make two of... one I leave at work, and one I take home. That way I know its extremely improbable that anything - fire, thief, natural disaster, whatever, is likely to destroy them all.

      Yes, I often encrypt them. Just because I leave them in less than absolutely secure locations does not mean the data itself is insecure. As for passwords, I find the easiest way I had of making them was take some known date - say my girlfriend's birthday, then perform some mathematical operations on it, you know like taking the log, then the sin, then the cosine, etc... then entering whats on the calculator display. So, yes, I may have a scrap of paper somewhere with my seed hint on it. But what I do with it is strictly between my calculator and me. Yes, I am aware that different calculators may give me slightly different answers... thats why I have three identical calculators! I figure that thats just another level of security, as even if someone somehow figured out the sequence of operations I pulled off, if they didn't have a calculator chip that had the identical roundoff mechanisms in place, they still would not arrive at the same digits as I.

      Well, anyway, that's my favorite method of password obfuscation if I feel I have good reason to don the tinfoil hat.

      --
      "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]

  55. Hate to debunk your analogy... by SendBot · · Score: 1

    Unless I have items of value in my car, I leave it unlocked with a small (not especially visible) key in the ignition. It hasn't been stolen yet, but that doesn't prevent anyone from taking advantage of the situation.

    Folks, this is security by obscurity at its finest. If cars came default with this behaviour (analogous to windows), I'd take more care in going through the hassle of securing my car. That is to say, if automotive hooligans could rely on a significant population of cars to be that easy to access, I'd be more worried about my car being targeted.

    Once I get my gps-enabled stealth computer with gprs going, I'll be able to see where thieves take my car when they steal it!

    1. Re:Hate to debunk your analogy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where do you park your car?

  56. two words... by missing_boy · · Score: 1

    OS X

  57. Usability * Security = W by harmless_mammal · · Score: 1

    Usability and Security may be inversely related, but the constant of proportionality is arbitrary.

    U * S = W

    I usually call that constant W, because it is possible to make a system that is secure AND useable... It's just that it takes a lot of Work.

    Microsoft has been historically insecure because it's a highly useable system produced with the minimum necessary effort.

  58. Even accessibility is not always opposed by JavaRob · · Score: 1

    Architecturally, it is generally accepted that the security of a building is opposed to it's accessibility. [...] However, usability overcomes some of these problems by making entrances obvious, door opening automatic, lighting bright, etc.

    Even accessibility is not always opposed to security. If you want to rob a store, you have a few requirements that are different from those of the "shopper" user: ideally, you want to enter, take what you want, and leave quickly with as little resistance and recognition as possible.

    Good lighting impedes the thief/robber, and helps the shopper find what they want and feel safe. A height measurement sticker and a camera by the door discourages robbers without impeding a shopper. Automatic doors are designed to open in time for a walking person, not a running person. Cash registers are frequently cleared to put most cash in a hard-to-reach location (sometimes offsite), which has a business cost without affecting the shopper.

    Software usability, accessibility, and security must be considered in the same way -- some changes will improve all aspects, some will improve one at the cost of another. More changes will be at odds, because the computer is such a flexible tool (crackers have different "requirements" than other users... but not all that different from some developers and power users), but this is still the same balancing act we've always been doing... we just know now that the risks of poor security are huge.

  59. secure != pain in the ass by myowntrueself · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Something I read somewhere;

    'Some people are of the mistaken impression that being secure is synonymous with being a big pain in the ass'

    Its so true...

    --
    In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    1. Re:secure != pain in the ass by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      That's insightful? Make a statement and prove it's validity by saying "Its so true..."?

      'Some people are of the mistaken impression that calling other people's beliefs mistaken is synonymous with proving them wrong.'

      It's so true...

    2. Re:secure != pain in the ass by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      Absolutely. *I* didn't say it was insightful.

      I am often amazed at the posts I make that get modded 'insightful' when I was expecting 'funny' or even 'troll'.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  60. Still dont get it yet do they by jaltoids · · Score: 1

    Oi -- not this again.


    Usabilty has little to do with security. Usability only becomes a factor when your users CANT understand what is required of them. For example if the user cant distinguish that their name goes in one box, their password in another, and their RSA token in a third you have done something wrong.


    Experience has a LOT to do with security. If you make users change their password every month, and you require an equal mix of alpha and non-alpha chars, then what are they going to do? I would bet "post it" under the keyboard.


  61. Re:Well, here's an experiment you can do at home.. by Weaselmancer · · Score: 1

    True enough, AC. NAT will offer some protection.

    But you don't have to surf pr0n or respond to spam to get nailed. Only time I was ever bitten on a windows box was through a song lyrics site. Avoid those!

    Also, that was the day I moved to FireFox. =)

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
  62. Re:women by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's pretty much a zero-day exploit.

  63. Not very good examples. by khendron · · Score: 1

    While I agree with the author's premise, I do not think he had used very good examples. His examples that he uses do not do his arguments justice.

    * In the Indian Assembly Election example he uses, the usability of the voting interface has little to do with the security of the machines. The voting interface can be very user friendly, but that says nothing about whether or not it is possible to hack into the machine through a network and change the results.

    * In his examples of firewalls and adware detection, he confuses "usability" with "availability." But available is a a facet of security, not usability (see the definitions at the top of the article). He means to say "because the systems are more useable, they are more secure." But what he says is "Because the systems are more available, they are more secure", which is like saying 1 equals 1.

    --
    Life is like a web application. Sometime you need cookies just to get by.
  64. Re:Not sure this article has a good starting premi by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1


    I don't think this is particularly true. In all walks of life, if something is more usuable, then it tends to be more secure, if only because if it is easier to lock something then people are more likely to lock it.


    Ever fumble with keys while trying to get groceries in through the front door? How about trying to get in your car during a rainstorm? Ever realize that you've forgotten or lost those keys? These are examples where increased security decreases usability.

    That doesn't mean a secured system has to be a hard to use system. The goal of most security systems is to increase security with minimal impact to usability. Many modern locking systems take advantage of new technology to do this. We can mention proximity smartcards, keyless entry keyfobs, and biometric / PIN systems as methods to deal with the above examples (although none of them are as "easy" as an unlocked door).

    It might be worth noting that in some extreme cases, decreasing ease-of-use is a key component of a security system. However, this mostly applies to physical security systems. And while physical security is the easiest source of anologies, it is ultimately a far different beast than information security.
  65. Good example: SSH vs. Telnet by gweihir · · Score: 3, Insightful

    With SSH I can have secure remote login without password. In addition I get nice things like port-forwarding and compressed connections.

    With Telnet I had less functionality, little security and had to either use my password each time or have even less security (rhosts).

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    1. Re:Good example: SSH vs. Telnet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SSH remote login without password implies that you have a private key stored somewhere in your account files.
      What if someone get access to your account even for a few seconds (a virus, a trojan, a 'trusted' coleague, ...)?
      You prefer the user-friendly method but it is also the most insecure. Is that what this article was all about?

    2. Re:Good example: SSH vs. Telnet by archen · · Score: 1

      Ever hear of kerberos?

    3. Re:Good example: SSH vs. Telnet by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Ever hear of kerberos?

      Yes. Did it ever work resonably well? I used it in an AIX cluster some time back and it was a constant pain....

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  66. Not in this lifetime by squoozer · · Score: 1

    In some crazy mixed up world maybe just maybe you will get a computer security system that isn't complete hell to use but it isn't going to happen in this life time.

    Uses see security as an inconvenience not something that helps them in anyway (and lets face it if we sent all the crackers to Mars we wouldn't need security anyway).

    Computer security isn't like, say, a guard over a the blade of a circular saw. I don't think most users understand what it is there for and so they by pass it or make it as simple to get through as possible.

    --
    I used to have a better sig but it broke.
  67. I'd say not by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 2, Informative

    I don't think they are exactly opposites. There are situations where they conflict; e.g. having to enter a password before you can use a service.

    Actually, security and usability often go hand in hand. I don't think email would be very usable if people constantly messed with your account. Another example is Windows vs. GNU or BSD: I think Windows has very low usability, due to the knowledge and action required to keep the system healthy. Part of this stems from the bad security of Windows. (puts on asbestos underwear)

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  68. Yes by mark-t · · Score: 1

    The real trick to it is to finding the often delicate balance between security and usability that actually meets the demands of the people the system is working for, as well as delivering this system on time and under budget. That's what makes security such a hard job. Usability and Security are at polar opposits of the same scale, and everyone wants both. Fortunately, different environments place different demands on a system, so the balancing act is usually at least _possible_.

  69. That sounds stupid. by baadfood · · Score: 1

    unusable software is inherently insecure.

  70. Are Usability & Security Opposites in Computin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, you insenitve clod.

  71. Usability is obvious? by RZeno · · Score: 1
    Two quotes from the paper:
    Most people know when something is user-friendly and thus easy to use and when something is not.
    Hmmm. Do most people know that citations that begin with "most people know" are usually fallacies (an appeal of popularity)? ;)
    Usability is the measure of the quality of a user's experience...
    Yes, but the means of measurement is not just assuming that most people know when it's user-friendly.
  72. Problem of Deffinition by boyfaceddog · · Score: 1

    It seems the problem really is one of deffinition. What exactly do you mean by "Security" and "Easy to use"? If security means "put a password on everything", of couse that's hard to use. On the other hand, if easy to use means "no thought", of course it will be less secure. To say that increased security menas decreased ease of use is meaningless without a scope.

    --
    Here will be an old abusing of God's patience and the king's English.
  73. Perfect Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To prove that security and usability are the exact opposite, let me pose a current (secured) system.

    1) Computer is not networked
    2) There is no operating system installed
    3) There is no HD or floopy for OS install, nor NIC for OS install
    4) Actually the parts of the system are still in various stores.

    See, the system is completely secure and totally unusable.

    I wounder if this is going to get mod'd as funny... If not, time to go to bed... working 3rd shift sucks ass...

  74. Usable or Useful by pritcharda · · Score: 1

    Most of the comments seem to use the 'its broke, therefore its not usable' definition.


    A usability issue is one that inhibits a users ability to complete a given task. Either the system is to convoluted for the user to understand how to complete the task, or its just so well hidden that the user gives up. But the fact that the task is technically compellable, makes this a usability issue.


    A usefulness issue in one that fails to provide the user with the ability to complete a task. Either the system does not allow for the action, or completing the action with the system has no benefit. (the user can do it faster / better without the system)


    This is a fundamental difference. A usable system can be secure, and an insecure system can not be useful. (at least not for very long if its Win XP).

  75. Re:Well, here's an experiment you can do at home.. by Idealius · · Score: 1

    Ah yes, RPC exploit used by blaster, netsky, etc.

    The newer XP CD's have SP1 on them (and now even SP2) which has the Internet Connection Firewall (ICF) (or Windows Firewall of Security Center) enabled by default.

    For those of you stuck with older XP CD's just turn ICF on by Right-clicking My Network Places > Properties > Right-click connection > Properties > Advanced > ICF. Do this BEFORE you connect to the Internet, if you're using cable or some forms of DSL this means BEFORE you even plug it in.

  76. Try a Mac by fupeg · · Score: 1
    Instinct tells us that computer security and computer usability are inversely proportional to each other.
    I think you have poor instincts. You are probably too used to Windows. Try a Mac.
  77. I have a theory about this. by GuyFawkes · · Score: 1


    Which might initially sound like it is totally unconnected, but please bear with me.

    I was actually talking with a friend about his new (to him) bmw k100 motorcycle compared to older britsh or japanese bikes... with the older stuff making them go very fast wasn't really a problem, thing is, when you were going fast you always knew it... my mate's beemer is different, he cruises along as smooth as anything and looks down at the speedo and is shocked to discover he is doing 12o mph, when it feels liek 70 mph.

    The point being, the new beemer, complete with ABS and all the other goodies, isn't actually safer than a 25 year old tuned bike, it FEELS safer, and that lacks of visceral danger signals makes you ride more dangerously, wheras on the older, apparently more dangerous bikes, you were safer.

    I think this applies to the usability vs security debate too...

    just as with the bikes, the apparently more secure one is actually the more dangerous.

    a secure system isn't therefore going to be a system that appears secure, a secure system will be a system that makes the user feel a bit vulnerable.

    sat at a well set up linux box behind a pukka hardware firewall logged in via a user account I will feel very secure, so I will be paying almost no attention to security.. ok the system itself should be secure, but how often do you run chkrootkit compared to a windows user running AV software, how often to you routinely pass out root passwords to fellow geeks, how often do you watch out for people shoulder surfing while entering personal data?

    on a direct to the internet connected winders box you know you aren't secure, so as a result you may be far more suspicious of everything and everyone.
    (sure, not all lusers are like this, I am using for example similarly clueful users on windows and linux)

    I think the usability issue will follow on from this, like the bike example, the beemer is easier to ride, but when you wipe out it will be a major spill, with the old bikes when you have a moment there's a good chance of enough being left in the performance envelope to save your skin.

    getting back to the computer security issue, I think this example follows, when you wipe out on linux it is usually dire, when you wipe out on windows, which does wobble long before linux, there's usually enough left in the OS to keep you going.

    I'm sure this will generate some flames and troll accusations, but it isn't meant to be, I'm just trying to look at it from another angle and compare it to something different to look for parallels that might cast some light on the subject in question.

    cheers

    --
    http://slashdot.org/~GuyFawkes/journal
  78. no, you just need to pay a lot more by mgoodman · · Score: 1

    i.e. you can have usable and secure, if you pay out the wazoo for it. unfortunately, most people don't -- they opt for usable and cheap.

    draw a triangle. at one point write "usable", at the next point write "secure" and at the next point write "cheap". now pick one side to that triangle -- thats your system.

    cant have your cake and eat it too, apparently.

    I opt for usable and secure for corporate and government environments; secure and cheap for home and small business.

    --
    01100111 01100101 01110100 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110100 00100000 01101101 01101111 01110010 01100101 00101110
  79. inabusability by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    My short white paper: Some programs are both unusable and insecure, as noted elsewhere in this story discussion. And insecurity makes programs unusable, especially when it masquerades as false security. Insecure programs that appear easy to use are really unusable, in the longer run. Useability is hard because it requires avoiding abusability .

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  80. It's not an instinct..... by Fantasio · · Score: 1

    .....it's only something we are used to see. It's true, we see too often computer security and computer usability going in opposite directions, but it does not have to be so. This occurs when the security function is an afterthought of the design, patched in a hurry on a system not designed initially for it. When it's the case, adding security is essentially the task of filling the holes when they are found, and each hole filled is a restriction in functionality/usability. If the product has been designed with the usability and security requirements in mind right at the beginning, there should be no opposition between these two aspects. Well...Closed source too often hides myopic design and sloppy developments

  81. This is hardly worth the effort of considering. by jd · · Score: 1
    It's a simple case of optimizing a few inequalities. The biggest problem is that you can't use SIMPLEX (Operational Research) because that requires linear equations, whereas here we have declining returns (non-linear equations).


    What you have are the following:


    • 0 <= Security <= maximumSecurity
    • 0 <= Usability <= maximumUsability
    • 0 <= Functionality <= maximumFunctionality
    • Security + Usability + Functionality <= maximumCombined
    • (Security * tolSecurity) >= minAcceptableSecurity
    • (Usability * tolUsability) >= minAcceptableUsability
    • (Functionality * tolFunctionality) >= minAcceptableFunctionality
    • (Security * tolSecurity) + (Usability * tolUsability) + (Functionality * tolFunctionality) >= minimumAcceptableProduct
    • Security + Usability + Functionality >= minimumUsefulProduct
    • Security < securityEfficiency / ln(securityEffort)
    • Usability < usabilityEfficiency / ln(usabilityEffort)
    • Functionality < functionalityEfficiency / ln(functionalityEffort)
    • maximumCombined < maximumEfficiency / ln(maximumEffort)
    • securityEffort + usabilityEffort + functionalityEffort <= maximumEffort
    • 0 >= tolSecurity >= 1
    • 0 >= tolUsability >= 1
    • 0 >= tolFunctionality >= 1


    The tolerence levels are dictated by the user. A tolerence of 1 means that any level is acceptable. A tolerence of 0 means that it'll never be good enough.


    The maximum combined benefit of security, usability and functionality is a function of the effort you're willing to put in. However, doubling the effort will less than double the returns. These sorts of systems always have declining returns. The upper threshold is whatever you're willing to put up with, in terms of input. Provided you're willing enough, you can get whatever output you like.


    I've not put them into the equations, but if you plot time available against effort, you'll get an S-shaped distribution. Initially, increasing the time produces a substantial increase in returns, but after a while the benefits fall off and eventually you'll produce next to no returns no matter how long you take.


    The other factor is people. The number of people in a project, versus the effort put in, follows a bell/gaussian distribution. There is a "perfect" size of team for a given project, and having either too many OR too few will result in a loss of productivity.


    (Too many, because more time is spent on communicating where everyone is, than is spent on actual work. Too few, because humans don't task-switch efficiently and rarely have a skill-set that is perfectly even.)


    From there, you can calculate exactly how good a product you want, based on what resources you're willing to throw at it, or what resources you'd need, if you want a specific level of quality.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  82. Re:Not sure this article has a good starting premi by arminw · · Score: 1

    ...ultimately a far different beast than information security...

    The inverse relationship between security and convenience applies to all areas of life, including computers. The goal is to make the security sufficient for the need with minimal increase of work, but there will always be SOME extra work for more security. There is no such thing as a free lunch in security. Someone has to do extra work and it usually is the person needing access to the computing resources. The more valuable the thing being protected, whether tangible or intangible, the more security is needed and the more work it will be for the authorized access thereof.

    --
    All theory is gray
  83. usefull things with one button by ajrs · · Score: 2, Insightful
    ...Most people forget that computers should only have one button.


    I tried to think of all of the usefull things that I own with one and only one button: flashlight, some of the electrical circuits in my house, electric toothbrush, signal booster for headphones, Taboo buzzer. It's a pretty short list.


    If your computer can figure out exactly what I want to do with only 1 button, you should do it without me having to press it.

  84. there is a literature on usability and security by apatrick · · Score: 1

    There is actually a fairly large literature on usability and security. Have a look at the HCISec Bibliography at http://www.gaudior.net/alma/biblio.html

  85. Re:Well, here's an experiment you can do at home.. by Politburo · · Score: 2, Informative

    but of course the windows update page only lets you in if you are on a Microsoft Operating System.

    Windows Update, that is windowsupdate.microsoft.com, will only work on MS operating systems using IE. However, patches and service packs are available as binary downloads through the Microsoft Support Center (or whatever they call it) from any browser, any OS. Last time I went to Windows Update, I seem to recall that there was a link to the Download Center where you could download these binaries outside of the 'Windows Update' system. Here is the Download Center.

    I however fully expect to have to reinstall everything from scratch in a few months when the next gaping hole is discovered.

    Then you've bought into the FUD here. I keep my Win2k box somewhat updated, but strictly firewalled with the unnecessary services turned off. I have not had to reinstall the machine since I got it almost a year ago, and my previous machine ran for years without a reinstall. The only spyware I got was because of my own stupidity when I ran something named "START.EXE" that came along with a crack.. err security patch. I easily removed the spyware with the Adaware/Spybot combo. I use IE only for connecting to sites that do not accept Firefox (my company's webmail and Windows Update). I don't even run AV.. I go to one of the free online scanners every 6 months or so.

    It's actually quite simple to keep a Windows box secure, despite what you read here every day.

  86. They have to coexist. Period. by venomkid · · Score: 1

    Otherwise, not just your your adversaries will try to circumvent your security; your trusted parties will as well.

    --
    vk.
  87. Re:Well, here's an experiment you can do at home.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I downloaded SP2 on my Mac. So I'm sure you can do in on Linux. Sure windowupdate.com is windows only. But you can still download the patches manually off microsoft.com.

  88. Re:Well, here's an experiment you can do at home.. by HeghmoH · · Score: 1

    And to take the opposite example, repeat your experiment with a Mac. Wait as long as you like. Notice how it's still as friendly and usable as the day you got it, while remaining highly secure.

    --
    Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
  89. But my grandma doesn't even use a computer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... you insensitive clod!

  90. Usability is a part of security! by LittleBigLui · · Score: 1

    Security has to include the user, because he is part of the system and can compromise it just like say a buffer overflow could. That's why theres password policies and other such things.

    If a system is hard to use correctly it quite possibly is also hard to use securely.

    Examples:

    Assume a browser that supports JavaScript. Since its implementation is known to be faulty (it was written by humans, so that assumption seems rational), JavaScript can be turned on and off by the user.

    Scenario 1: The Button to switch JavaScript on and off is easily recognizable, warns the user that JS should only be on for websites that he trusts and websites clearly state why they need JS anyway. The user now can make an informed decision which websites he wants to enable JS for.

    Scenario 2: JS is turned on and off by a hard to find menu item on the third tab of a very complex dialog. That menu item may also be misleadingly labelled. The user probably doesn't even know its there, but if he tried it out he would see that some websites he needs to use stop working correctly. Hence, he's obviously better off leaving it on.

    It should be clear that you can't have security without usability.

    --
    Free as in mason.
  91. Re:Not sure this article has a good starting premi by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1


    The inverse relationship between security and convenience applies to all areas of life, including computers.


    Sure - there are certainly simularities between the two. This allows for common applications of some principles as well as limited analogies. But it is a mistake to apply all physical security precepts to information security.

    For example, the environments of physical and information security are different. Physical security is limted by the laws of physics. And while advances in technology do slowly change the realm of "possible", these changes tend to be limited. Much of physical security is dealing with constants. Within information security, if you don't like the environment... change it. Sure, there are limiting factors to that change. But ultimately, if a specific protocol or system has major issues, one is certainly able to change to something more secure. In short, Infosec allows for a greater degree of change within the environment than what is afforded to physical security.
  92. Re:Not sure this article has a good starting premi by abhjit · · Score: 1

    I second this. The question is not if usability or security is inversely proportional. The question is whether security is usable or not.

  93. multiple passwords by schuster · · Score: 1

    Would it work if sites required two passwords so that the user would have two passwords to remember for one site? That would allow users to have simpler passwords while still making it more difficult for hackers if they had to guess two words instead of one, imho. Of course, I didn't read the article so maybe that was already suggested.

    --
    --- Don't ever trust a woman until she's dead- B.B. King
  94. Usability and security... by zurtle · · Score: 1
    A good user-centred design process allows a software engineering team to create a good solution. Security is a subset of usability - if the user desires security, then that should also be a part of the product.

    This whole thread displays the ignorance that abounds in the techie community. The guy who posted this thread has no bloody idea what usability is. A discussion of usability vs security shows that:
    a) generally, there is ignorance about what usability actually is.
    b) usability is a lame excuse for piss-poor programming re: security.

    (b) usually comes from (a) because most software programmers do not come from a good design background, let alone understand what proper design is. They sit down with a problem and hack till their toes fall off. Security and usability can be achieved in one go, but it depends on how good the programmer is.

    Usability. Design. They're important. Security is just a possibly-desirable aspect. A good design framework should allow a secure, usable package. If you want to focus on security, that's fine. Just be aware that if you give up usability for security, it's ok, it just means you're not that great at what you do. I recommend a career in McDonalds for you.

    --
    Couldn't stand the weather
  95. Security is a feature. by matman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Security is about mitigating risks. Users can not be asked to mitigate risks that they don't understand or believe in. Users must either a) choose to mitigate the risks or b) be forced to mitigate the risks.

    If a user places them self at risk they should have the option to have that risk mitigated. If mitigating the risk causes the user no pain (no extra user action) then automatically mitigating the risk is fine; otherwise, risk mitigation should be opt-in/out-able.

    If a system exposes some other entity which has control of the system to risk, that entity may require that if the system is used, the risks to that entity be mitigated. Thus users will be forced to accept the security measures. While some users will try to work around the measures, the measures are required. The measures should be made as easy as possible to accept, though education, reduction of overhead to the user, etc.

    This applies to all kinds of security, including law. Drug laws are a good example. "Society" feels at risk from drugs, imposes security measures against drugs, and some "users of society" work around those measures to do drugs anyway. Society tries to make the laws easier to obey through education (propaganda?), by limiting access to drugs, by making drug use riskier, etc. The people that have problems with these laws are those people which do not agree with the risk assessment by society (many) and those which do not care about society but do agree with the risk assessment (few).

    Computer security is the same. People have problems with measures when the measures pain them without convincing them of the worth of the cost. You can convince the user by:
    - Reducing the cost of the measure to the user (that's UI work).
    - Increasing the "return on investment" of the measure perceived by the user (that's education).

    So:
    - DON'T force security measures on users when the measures only protect the user and when the user doesn't want them.
    - DO make the purpose of measures clear.
    - DO make the measures as unobtrusive as possible.

    Now a lot of risks involving computers do impact more than just the user. Consider worms where local host security hurts your neighbors (as your machine attacks them). This complicates things.

    As a human being, you must decide whether you want to force measures on someone that they don't want, to protect only them. I don't like other people forcing decisions on me, so I would implore developers to make such measures optional (on by default if the cost is low and benefit high). You must also decide, whether you will force measures on users that don't want them, for the good of someone other than the user. As an application developer, you must consider that any measure that you force on a user, when they don't want the measure, will be seen by that user as a pain in the ass and will help support competing applications. Also, implementation measures will be criticized for usability just as any part of your application is criticized. There's nothing special about security in terms of usability. UI components for features that users don't understand are distracting and confusing, and bad UI components for features that users do understand are just plain frustrating.

  96. Opposites? Not always by SCHecklerX · · Score: 1

    For example, on my trusted systems, I regularly use rsync over ssh, or run apps on the remote end using ssh with a passwordless private key. This is obviously easier than having to type a password for each task, and allows me to run, for example, X11 apps seemlessly from a remote server on the local display without messing with manual authentication.

  97. We have an answer now! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ok usability is inverse proportional to security , usability is also inverse proportional to power,
    usability is inverse proportional to speed.
    usability is inverse proportional to users intelligence.

    By god I think we've really figured something out!
    usability is the root of all our technical problems.

  98. Re:Not sure this article has a good starting premi by agbinfo · · Score: 1

    This sounds like a HGTTG problem where the answers are all really fine but nobody has figured out what the question is.

    Q: What is security
    A: 42 (or maybe 54)

    Is computer security inversely proportional to usability?

    Choose any answer you want, the fact remains that we generally need security and it may or may not be proportional (inversely) to usability but it is making the design of a "user friendly" system more complicated and sometimes even impossible.

    So what's the real question?

    I think that the real question(s) should be:

    1) How secure does this system need to be?
    2) Is it easier to build a usable system over a secure architecture or to add security to a usable system?
    3) What is going to be the time to market a secure system vs. a mostly secure system vs. ...?

    These answers will depend on the type of application/OS you build. If I need an OS for an emmbedded application, I'm not going to waste time making it secure.

  99. A secure design can be quite usable by argent · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you start with only usability in mind, and end up with a design that has inherent security flaws, it's easy to end up in a situation where the only way to improve security is to reduce usability. Internet Explorer is, of course, the poster boy fo rthis problem.

    If you start with security in mind, and maintain both security and usability goals, you can end up with a much more secure design that, by the end of the day, is also more usable.

    For example, if you build a rendering component that doesn't contain a mechanism for breaking out of its sandbox, and then let specific applications add capabilities that objects they directly provide to the rendering engine can use, you can implement almost every piece of functionality that Microsoft designed ActiveX for without having an ever-tightening ring of increasingly annoying restrictions wrapped about the user.

    The only difference is that rather than having Internet Explorer at the core of the system, so that everything ends up looking like part of IE, you have a variety of applications with embedded HTML panes that provide the same functionality.

    What do you lose? The ability to have remote web pages embed trusted control inside their web pages... instead you need to explicitly install plugins or, for in-house tools, run an "intranet update" that downloads and updates the apps.

    This seems less convenient, until you realise the browser is more convenient in other ways because it's not trying to second-guess everything you do... and, once enough people are using it, the convenience of a more spam- and virus- free mailbox has to count for something.

  100. Umm...nope by oliverthered · · Score: 1

    Delete the files, oh shit, not those ones sent those to Mary, not that Mary.

    I have a phone which I don't use, it has too many buttons, one for back, one for escape and one for cancel etc...
    Each button does exactly what it says and only what it says, nice and easy for my grandma (press the red one granny) but appalling for everyone else, the problem is that the decision space has been fixed towards my grandma and I'm the one who's got the phone.

    The same could be said about any piece of software i.e. the decision space is fixed,this makes it easy for some but hard for others.

    Your solution would be make it easier for the people who find it hardest and level the playing field a bit, well I suppose that's fair, but all a bit pseudo-usability to me. What needs to happen is that applications need to be able to adapt to the different decision spaces that different users will require. Take for instance a computer game (I've got warcraft on my desk), now war craft uses it's first few levels as a tutorial by reducing the decision space, I can't make mistakes because there are no mistakes to be made, it then increases the decision space to stop the game becoming boring. The same approach can be taken with general software, each application could use machine learning to work out what decision spaces to present to the user, the software would then be able to adapt the to users needs making giving it perfect usability.

    Once an individual user has a decision space, other users who perform similar tasks can take data from the decision space to improve there's, e.g. software used in a call centre could produce an optimal decision space for that call centre, this could be used to adapt working practises and spearhead feature markets.

    This is not one button marked 'do exactly what the user wants me to do', it's a prompt saying, 'I think you want to do this next'.

    All commands should be accesable from everywhere, it's just that the user should be presented with the one that they are going to use next, 'always one click away.'

    --
    thank God the internet isn't a human right.
  101. Usability & Cost by Whatchamacallit · · Score: 1

    Huge Enterprise environment where users have an average of 15-20 passwords. Admin users have an average of 20-35 passwords. Security department in the process of tightening security across the enterprise. This involves going from 90 day expiration to 60 day expiration. Forcing all applications to be Security compliant introduces more passwords that expire. For example there are 5 PeopleSoft web based systems and each one has a unique user ID & password.

    Quite frankly, the users are pissed off. They have a Windows domain password, a Netware password, a Lotus Notes password, an Intranet password, multiple mainframe passwords, client server application passwords, remote access RSA Token passwords, etc., etc., etc.

    The help desks are swamped with hundreds of extra calls a month for password resets. Due to complex password rules, the users have a real hard time choosing a new password. No common words (we have an extensive database that includes sports team names, human names, pet names, etc). Remembers the last 16 passwords and refuses to let you use similar passwords.

    The only saving grace is a planned integration of these systems into a single Active Directory Domain with a custom admin tool. Once all the apps are customized to hook into this directory, then the passwords can be syncronized to reduce the number of passwords to a reasonable number.

    Beyond this we will probably go with smartcards or some kind of USB RSA key. After all if you sync a bunch of account passwords then if the password is hacked the hacker would be able to access multiple systems. So making a very secure passcode and hooking it to an RSA Token would be advantageous.

    Ya know what, I really miss the Keychain from Mac OS 10.3.6 Panther. If I had something like this in Windows, it would eliminate a lot of the hassles. Of course, security would deem it necessary to lock the keychain frequently...

  102. OpenBSD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Secure & Useable!

    http://www.openbsd.org/

  103. In Windows You need be admin for too meny things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that can be a big thing

  104. Provocative title - thin content by JSG · · Score: 1

    I thoroughly agree with much of the paper but it does not really address the real snags that anyone with half an interest in security has to deal with.

    I'll give you a classic example: I have over 60 customer (sites). Yes, you think you have problems with admin passwords. You should see the storage methods I use for those (and no they aren't stored anywhere else than my bonce - as to what those customers do with them)!! I have rather more than my PC passord, ATM card and a few website passwords to deal with.

    Yes, pretty password generators are all very well as some posters have whittered on about but in the end its just another case of "something you know".

    Anyone care to come up with something that works for wholesale access methods.

    I need "something you REALLY are"

  105. For those who know... by shadowsurfr1 · · Score: 1

    ...what they're doing, keeping their PCs secure can be quite easy. I've never .:knock on wood:. had a virus. I'm not really cautious either.

  106. Re:Well, here's an experiment you can do at home.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Regarding the FUD: you might be right.

    Regarding "windows update"... you seem to imply it is reasonably to refuse to serve a page altogether because of the OS/Browser combination the user is using. Viewed by anything other than Windows & Internet Explorer, the page outputs a near-plaintext "Thank you, but this is for Windows users only." message.

    SP2, the basic intended-for-a-single-computer edition, is *not* available anywhere except through windows update. As I wrote, what I had to download and install was the "developer" edition intended for network installations. That's what I downloaded using linux, and that's what my other replier must have downloaded with his Macintosh.

    SP2, the patch that all home-users should want, is in fact *not* available on the internet unless you are browsing there with a windows operating system using an internet explorer browser. That's not reasonable, not understandable; just fcuked up microsoft. It is about akin to Red Hat making available a serious security update only to browsers that it can identify as being Red Hat users.

    If my operating system of choice is broken, and I need to download a patch to fix it... it might be nice if I could do it from a non-vulnerable OS. Of course... that presupposes that there exists more than one operating system--undoubtable a concept that is anathema to microsoft.

  107. Distinguishing between Good guys and Bad guys. by Zarf · · Score: 1

    In one measure the goal of security is to make things hard for people. Specifically, it should make things extremely hard for Bad People (tm) and not too hard for Good People (tm). The purpose of the security system is to distinguish who is a "Good Guy" and who is a "Bad Guy" as defined by whomever set down the system.

    In the most abstract sense we could be talking about remote programs, real world human users, or virus-like programs.

    --
    [signature]
  108. Separate logic from presentation: problem solved by foniksonik · · Score: 1

    As in web applications, desktop applications should now follow the paradigm of separating logic from presentation.

    When this is done there can be no issues where GUI == insecurity.

    Problem solved.

    Until this happens...

    GUI should not ask for low level changes.

    GUI should demand that low level changes meet their needs.

    Being able to query data should not bypass security... and it should not be limited by security where it is not merited.

    Smarter design, smarter design, smarter design...

    --
    A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
  109. Got a problem with your math by scruffyMark · · Score: 1
    I might have missed something here, perhaps largely because it's past 1am and I was up late last night.

    But - are you sure about the rightness of how you multiply in the positions? I mean, since your two non-repeating digits are unknown, that unknown-ness is already figured into the 10* 9 figure - you could swap your two 'Schroedinger digits', and it would have no effect on the size of the password space. As far as positional parameters go, they seem like they should be identical - 8C2, not 8P2. You can't have the same entropy count as random in two different ways, right?

    I mean, if you make a password of 3 lower case characters and the @ character, it's just 26^3 * 4 - three characters, and the position of the @ - not 26^3 * 3! - the unknown-ness of your letters is already accounted for by the 26^3

    So, let's separate this into two elements: The values of the elements:
    32 * 10 * 9 * 26 * 25 * 26 * 25 * 87 * 86 = 9104097600000
    and their positions:
    9C1 * 8C2 * 6C2 * 4C2 * 2C2
    = 9 * 28 * 15 * 6 * 1
    =22680

    22680 * 9104097600000 = 206480933568000000

    Which is still 945 times bigger than space 2, but still you overstated the case by a factor of 15 or so.

    None of which is to say that I haven't missed something obvious in all that....

    --

    What is the robbing of a bank, compared to the founding of a bank? -- Bertolt Brecht

    1. Re:Got a problem with your math by Scott+Carnahan · · Score: 1

      You're right. My mistake.

      --
      "Your notation sucks!" -- Serge Lang (1927-2005)
  110. Biometrics (was Re:No, I call that bad intuition.) by dodobh · · Score: 1

    The problem with biometrics is what happens to the digitised information after the system is broken into. Your authentication design must be resilient against failure. Biometrics fail across a network, where the source must be trusted to have actually done the authentication, and not just replayed previous information.

    Imagine a scenario where duplicating yor body, down to the DNA was feasible, and it was possible for an attacker to simply jump acros bodies into a new one. What would your authentication systems be in such a scenario.

    Authentication and authorization would then have to be based on who you are, what you know, and a piece of hardware that you have. And this needs to be verifiable by every sysem you need to authenticate to.

    --
    I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
  111. Re:Well, here's an experiment you can do at home.. by julesh · · Score: 1

    Notice any difference? This is exactly why Usability and Security are NOT opposites. Any box that's running 99% cpu with malware and viruses is damn near unusable.

    You're using a different definition of usability to the one intended. The point is, the computer is very usable when you first boot it, before it gets any of those infections. If an infected computer becomes less usable, that's a problem with the malware that is infecting it. The fact that the malware is able to be installed is a problem with security. But the link isn't a direct causation: the existence of the security problem did not make the computer less usable, because the security problem existed at first boot, and the computer was fine then.

    See?

  112. HCISEC by Khelder · · Score: 1

    In the last 5-10 years, some researchers from the Human-Computer Interaction (HCI) and security community have gotten interested in the intersection of these two things. We're calling it "HCISEC". If you'd like more info about it, search for it on ggogle.

  113. Hey no Way by PicklePoker · · Score: 1

    Just because you can't seem to find out what is good behaviour and what is not does not make usability and security to be opposites. If you be dumb enough to profile in the way like block every port for these people, put in wierd access control then obviously security is a hinderance to any CHANGE in the usability of a user. If you can't make an architecture that can monitor the security and place holds dynamically along with the user, its not a tussle between security and usability. IF THE software/security mechanisms can't determine ADAPTIVELY when the user/program is malicious/outside the desired behaviour then its the SOFTWARE's big problem...