PA Sues Online 'University' For Spamming

CousinLarry writes "Online 'university' Trinity Southern University (Google cache of disabled site homepage) has been sued by the state of Pennsylvania." Besides spamming, this self-described school has, as another reader points out, "awarded an MBA to a cat owned by an undercover Pennsylvania deputy attorney general." I bet my cat could get a PhD.

Comments

You insensitive clod

[shoppa]

My cat already has a PhD!

Re:You insensitive clod

[Anonymous Coward]

What degrees catbert has again?

Re:You insensitive clod

[AvitarX]

With that work ethic I would certainly hire her over most fresh college grads.

Re:You insensitive clod

[rsidd]

Ah but has your cat published a paper in Physical Review Letters?

More about the second author of that paper (scroll down to "Hetherington and Willard article)

Re:You insensitive clod

[Trillan]

Certainly she has a promising career at a help desk ahead of her. How much does it cost to mail a cat offshore?

Re:You insensitive clod

[milo_Gwalthny]

I have 10,000 monkeys with MFAs. They're working on a novel right now.

Re:You insensitive clod

[sydbarrett74]

Yeah, my cat's litter-box is Piled Higher and Deeper, too.

Re:You insensitive clod

[Moderatbastard]

Don't know about catbert, but I remember Ratbert with his bolt-on brain (actually a piece of liver) which had an MBA from Harvard.

Anybody know of a site that indexes the Dilbert cartoons by kewords or subject? It's a bummer when you just know there's one for the stuation but you can't find it.

Re:You insensitive clod

[GrodinTierce]

No, but she is professional hypnotherapist.

Re:You insensitive clod

[flosofl]

I have 10,000 monkeys with MFAs. They're working on a novel right now.

You seem to be using only 10,000 monkeys, while the IMPS protocol clearly calls for an infinite number.

Obviously, you are not conforming with RFC 2795. Please rectify this or you may become a pariah on /.

Re:You insensitive clod

[jqh1]

*my* cat has a PhD and runs a sinister multinational corporation

Re:You insensitive clod

[Anonymous Coward]

My cat already has a PhD!

It's a PhD in English though so it's practically worthless as it is.

Re:You insensitive clod

[FatBear]

My cat is a highly trained operator with at least 17 years of field experience. He can sit, shake, high-five, turn around, lie down, etc. He is very independent and will not work until you show him the money (treats.) As such, I do not think he would make a good employee of Mambernet, but could be one of your best contract agents...

Re:You insensitive clod

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one, welcome our new feline PHBs.

Re:You insensitive clod

[fux0rbob]

My cat got his PHd last year for finding a Door Into Summer. The other candidate would have gotten his PHd, but his uncertainty about being placed in a box turned out to be well founded...

Which is smarter?

[Anonymous Coward]

This university could answer an old question.
Which is smarter, cats or dogs?

Re:Which is smarter?

[REBloomfield]

who are smarter ;) reminds me of Zimbu the Monkey in Dilbert....

Re:Which is smarter?

[Bob McCown]

Empirical evidence suggests that cats are smarter. After all, the old adage is "Dogs have owners, cats have staff".

Re:Which is smarter?

[Anonymous Coward]

An "adage" doesn't really mean much.

As owner of both cats and dogs, it's quite obvious that dogs are smarter.

It's quite a simple test: put a sock over the head of both animals and observe the results.

A dog will attempt to remove the sock by scratching at it with his/her paws.

A cat will walk around backwards, thinking that it is in a tunnel.

Re:Which is smarter?

[LinuxHam]

I agree. When my wife and I were deciding on names for our new cat, we agreed that only if we get a dog, too, the cat would be named "Pentium" and the dog "286". No dog, so we settled on "Chairman Mousey Tongue".

Re:Which is smarter?

[Skye16]

My cat pulls it right off. Maybe your cat consumed lead paint chips in its formative years? ;D

Re:Which is smarter?

[Lev13than]

This university could answer an old question.
Which is smarter, cats or dogs?

Well, the cat earned an MBA so I'm putting my money on dogs.

Re:Which is smarter?

[Anonymous Coward]

Chairman Mousey Tongue. Ow, that hurts.

Re:Which is smarter?

[FatBear]

My cat will think about it for a minute, realize that it is warm and doesn't hurt, and will lay down and wait for my wife to remove it.

Re:Which is smarter?

[Trogre]

The mice will see you now.

Ralph

[bigtallmofo]

When I grow up, I'm going to Bovine University!

Re:Ralph

[xtracto]

My cat's name is Mittens

Re:Ralph

[TummyX]

My cat's breath smells like cat food

Re:Ralph

[Wybaar]

Actually, since your cat's been attending Trinity Southern, it's actually Dr. Mittens, PhD. It has a Doctor of Pouncing and Hunting degree.

Re:Ralph

[kaellinn18]

You smell like dead bunnies.

Re:Ralph

[tonsofpcs]

With sharp, pointy teeth.

PS:
Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.

Re:Ralph

[Short Circuit]

If I'm not mistaken, that's a reference to Kevin and Kell.

Re:Ralph

[Anonymous Coward]

As even a cursory google search would have confirmed, it's a reference to Ralph Wiggum of Simpsons fame.

Smart Cat

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one welcome our new feline overlords

Re:Smart Cat

[Anonymous Coward]

Havard and Yale would award degrees to cats too if someone paid enough money and provided fraudelent information to the schools. The attorney general's cat did not fill out the form. The attorney general did that himself. This only proves two things. First, colleges exist soley to make money, not educate. Second, it is easy to defraud a college, especially if you are an attorney general.

This is a joke?

[mike1086]

Right?

Headline

[StevenHenderson]

Did anyone else read this as "Penny Arcade Sues Online 'University' For Spamming?"

Re:Headline

[DigitumDei]

LOL, I thought I was the only one.

Re:Headline

[Emrikol]

Damn, my cat only has an MCSE

Well, almost. He did fail TCP/IP.

Re:Headline

[Garabito]

I read: "The state of Pennsylvania sues university for file sharing"

Re:Headline

[Derkec]

Good to hear I'm not alone on this one.

Re:Headline

[gnu-generation-one]

"Damn, my cat only has an MCSE... Well, almost. He did fail TCP/IP."

Didn't play well with cat 5?

Re:Headline

[mollymoo]

Did anyone else read this as "Penny Arcade Sues Online 'University' For Spamming?"

I read it as "The Press Association Sues Online 'University' For Spamming".

Re:Headline

[kfergos]

Maybe that's just an indication of one too many Penny Arcades? Just like when you try to hit Undo when you've written something down wrong with a pen on paper.

Re:Headline

[Anonymous Coward]

Only you and the other retarded Penny Arcade fanboys.

Dr Katz

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess the cat with the Ph.D. falls into the category
of Dr. Katz.

Am I the only one

[WarDancer]

that didn't understand why Penny Arcade would sue them? :)

Re:Am I the only one

[fr2asbury]

I wish I could say you were, but the entry immediately prior to yours also mentioned it. Even if I had mod points I wouldn't count this as redundant though as people have similar thoughts at roughly the same time all the time.

Re:Am I the only one

[Anonymous Coward]

[people have similar thoughts at roughly the same time all the time]

I was just thinking that!

damnit!

[cakefool]

Why oh why do stories like this only come along After I blow my mod points?

Come to think of it - how come my cat isn't smart enough to get a degree?

Re:damnit!

[Ford Prefect]

Come to think of it - how come my cat isn't smart enough to get a degree?

Interestingly, your cat does have moderation points on Slashdot!

Re:damnit!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why oh why do stories like this only come along After I blow my mod points?

Probably for the same reason a better looking woman show up after you blow your... er.. never mind.

Re:damnit!

[RockDoctor]

how come my cat isn't smart enough to get a degree?

Your cat is smart enough to get a degree. Unfortunately it has been dumb enough to get staff (you) that won't listen to it's instructions to send in the necessary paperwork. Listen carefully - do you hear the order "Buy me a degree, and use an Ebay-thief's ill-gotten gains to finance it!"

So is this where...

[Chuqmystr]

Catburt received his degree? My bad, couldn't resist...

Re:So is this where...

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently Catbert attended a better school than you did.

Re:So is this where...

[Chuqmystr]

Dear Amalgamous Blowhard:

Noooo, nononono. Nothing like that, assure you my obviously pedigreed chum. I just pose here. I hardly ever read that strip, took my chances at making a Dilbert (or is that DeelBurt?) reff for good geek-poser measure and honestly the last time I saw Catburt, or Catbert (or was it a Cat's butt? Dunno, was all strung out on a Perl Drink::Guinness coding binge at the time)spelled out was, eh, many long and hazy weeks ago. I could give a cat's butt! Or a cat's burt. Or bert. That is if in fact cats have burts or berts. Come to think of it Cat=~/whateverthefuck.+/ probably was betterskewld than I as is evident within my prose. But who cares, I'm having a blast, unlike you whom is most likely sitting in his/her parent's basement/garage/what have you and obscessing over the spelling of a cartoon cat's name... Sincerely yours,

ChuqBurt, er, Bert, er, mystr...

Real Victim

[teiresias]

The real victim here is any online College or University that's trying to become a credible institution. With process stories like this few people will want to take the option of online Universitys and even fewer employers will take them seriously.

Re:Real Victim

[xtracto]

Well, I agree with you, but there are several universities with good reputation (like this)that are already offering postgrad programms, I think that is one of the first thing to search when deciding to make an online programme.

Re:Real Victim

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, degree mills like this hurt all American universities. I was talking with the head economist of a UK based multinational a while ago, and he throws all American CVs in the bin unless the university is a well known and respected one, simply because he doesn't have time to fuck about checking their accreditation.

Re:Real Victim

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh come on man, there is no such thing as a credible online university! University implies universitas and without discipline, social skills and physical presentation I don't care how many papers you get your nerdy brother to write for you but you can NEVER be an academic!!

Leave university for the intellectuals and go follow some technical course on your computer.

Re:Real Victim

[C10H14N2]

Considering how seriously employers take undergrad degrees while simultaneously disregarding their actual worth, in most cases, I really don't see much difference between an actual degree--regardless of where it's from--and one written in crayon on the back of a cocktail napkin. Maybe straight out of college with no experience, sure, but when people have a decade or more of experience, I don't care if you graduated Magna Cum Laude from Harvard. What you've done in the decade since going to Harvard is far more important to me than your fscking bachelor's degree.

Re:Real Victim

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I've always been wary of mail, online and other remote education programs. Unjustly so? Possibly. Just that it seems too easy to cheat on both sides.

Re:Real Victim

[Zebbers]

wow he must be lazy...doesn't take but two seconds to find out.

Re:Real Victim

[NeoSkandranon]

So in other words, if I graduated from a small private college, I'm fucked cause he's too lazy to look something up?

Re:Real Victim

[hackstraw]

The real victim here is any online College or University that's trying to become a credible institution.

Not really. I've never known anyone to take online classes, nor have I looked at them, but when seeing stuff like TV ads for "Phoenix University Online", I would not put too much credibility for someone that "went" there.

College has little to do with learning or grades, its a rite of passage, and a general skills game for things like problem solving, meeting deadlines, communication, etc. Very few of these skills, especially communication, can be done via an online course.

Re:Real Victim

[TheRaven64]

In the UK, the general perception is that a degree from a university in the USA is equivalent to a set of good A-levels (exams taken at age 18, usually in 3 subjects, sometimes in 5) in the UK. In a large part, this is due to the lack of specialisation in US universities. In the UK, you apply to a particular department in a University, and then do a degree in that subject, rather than the whole major subject with minor subjects thing that seems to go on in American universities.

Re:Real Victim

[Altus]

Its quite clear that people in the UK don't understand the concept of majors and minors.

A major is your field of study. If you attend a university you will work in the department associated with your major for most of the time you are there. A minor is entirely voluntary. You can choose to take additional courses in another field, related or unrelated and receive a minor. minors (or concentrations) have much simpler requirements and are meant to broaden your study should you choose to.

for instance, I have a Major in computer science. i took a very large number of computer science classes (the number of classes and what the classes are will vary from university to university). I also have a minor in physics (because I started as a physics major and switched) I had enough credits in physics to meat the requirement. It wasnt very many classes for the minor.

The minor does not need to be in any way related to the major. I just as easily could have gotten a minor in history. Unless in the UK you never take a single class ouside of your field of study i think you would find that the system in the US really isnt that much different and if universities in the UK are that narrow and strict, then i dont think I would be hiring people that graduated from them, because you really cant get a good education with out it being at least somewhat well rounded.

Re:Real Victim

[Anonymous Coward]

"Very few of these skills, especially communication, can be done via an online course."

Wow! Cannot communicate online uh? What century are you living in my friend. Chat, instant messaging, forums and message boards.....Get with it buddy.

There's always an initial skepticism with any new technology in the general public...Paying bills online for example.

I would like to see some hard facts on why these online programs are not effective.

Re:Real Victim

[Anonymous Coward]

Mmmmmm. Meat.

Re:Real Victim

[chialea]

How would you find out easily? Universities are accredited by different organizations. MIT isn't accredited at all, last I heard, under the theory that people already know they're just fine. The reason the organization that accredits UC Berkeley has any clout is that it accredits Berkeley. This doesn't sound that organized to me.

Fake online universities put up all sorts of fake stuff on the web to try to give the impression of legitimacy. I'm not aware of a list of "real" universities to check credentials against, and this tactic implies that a simple google search might not be all that helpful. (Putting up a page saying "this university is fake" doesn't fix the problem; they have tons and tons of names.)

Lea

Re:Real Victim

[LnxAddct]

That's funny because at my university we've got tons of foreign exchange students from the UK. Why? Because the UK's higher education is horrific and they'll admit it. The US may arguably be lacking at the elementary levels in comparison to other countries, but once you get as far as college, there is no other country to get an education at like in the United States. The major and minor "thing" is actually a great idea and allows people to remain focused on their core goals while allowing them to explore other unrelated areas of interest as well.
Regards,
Steve

Re:Real Victim

[Altus]

took me a while to figure this out... good catch... obviously I missed that.

funniest correction ever.

Re:Real Victim

[magefile]

Universities aren't accredited so much as their programs are. For example, if you want a bioengineering degree that actually means something, you want a school that is "ABET accredited". They do other engineering stuff, too (ABET="Accredition Board for Engineering and Tech." or sth. like that). And they are certified by CHEA (Council for Higher Ed. Accreditation). Given a college name 30 seconds of Googling will find out if they're accredited in a given field, and by whom.

Re:Real Victim

[Brandon30X]

I have to say thats not like it is here at all. After my second year nearly every single class I take is electrical engineering. Not only that, but a very specific part of electrical engineering (we are split up into 7 areas). I also have a minor in math, but only simply because EE needed so much math background that it only required one extra class. It was totally optional, and sometimes I forget that I even have it (most people dont care, just something to show on paper)
-Brandon

Re:Real Victim

[FCAdcock]

"College has little to do with learning" No, College has EVERYTHING to do with learning. There are lots of other activities which can go on at college; but for some, it's all about learning. I've taken a few classes over the internet, and have learned just as well in them as I did in my regular classes. Lectures are usualy given in MP3 format, with insturctional videos when needed. I have taken Linux admin classes, English comp, and even speech. The best part of classes over the net is that you can show up in your underware and drink through the ENTIRE class without ever getting in trouble. (unless your roommate walks in...)

Re:Real Victim

[hackstraw]

"College has little to do with learning" No, College has EVERYTHING to do with learning.

I have met very few recent graduates that have learned sufficient knowledge, skills, and abilities from school to be of any use to me from from college to be of any value in the workforce.

Job ads say things like "college degree required". I have never seen one that says "one must have learned X from college". My degree is in Psychology. I have never had a computer class in my life. I am currently a UNIX sysadmin, and have done that or programmed for a carrer for the past 7 or 8 years.

I've taken a few classes over the internet, and have learned just as well in them as I did in my regular classes.

That is great for your personal learning and achievements, but an employer probably could care less if you learned whatever from an internet class or not.

Remember, I got a degree in Psych, and I was taught that learning was "a relatively permanant change in behavior". If you "learned" how to be a brain surgeon from taking an online course or even by getting a degree, you will _never_ be operating on people's brains until you have _demonstrated_, ie learned, the proper skills to do such a thing. Things like residency, hands on expierience, etc.

Few college graduates truly learn much in their field after 4 years of college. Those that do have done things outside of class. There are exceptions, especiall for better schools, but I'm confident that this applies to well over 95% of the college graduates out there.

The best part of classes over the net is that you can show up in your underware and drink through the ENTIRE class without ever getting in trouble.

And those perks are not valuable in the workforce. Again, its great for your personal achievements, but not too valuable elsewhere.

Re:Real Victim

[cthrall]

> In the UK, you apply to a particular department in
> a University, and then do a degree in that
> subject

Huh, kinda like how I applied to the CompSci dept. and did a degree in CompSci...

Re:Real Victim

[drew]

There is an emphasis on learning in college, but it has little to do with your course material. Most of what you really learn is how to jump through hoops, meet deadlines, manage time and money, etc. Yes, you can learn a lot from your classes if you want to, but the truth is you can pass most college courses without learning a thing if you don't care.

If you are an employer, and you see that somebody has a bachelor's degree on their resume, all that really tells you is that the person in question was adept enough at jumping through hoops to get their university to award them a degree. They may or may not have actually learned anything from their classes while they were there, unfortunately there is no way of really knowing that without talking to them.

Re:Real Victim

[Profane MuthaFucka]

It also hurts the people who get the fake degrees. Do a google search on "Trinity Southern University" and "resume". See all the asshats who paid for their degree! Laugh at them! Now, do the same for all the other fake universities out there. Do us all a favor. When you interview people at work, and you see a university that you don't recognize, take 30 seconds to look it up. Don't let these people get into positions of responsibility. The last thing I would want is to be cared for by a nurse who has a degree from "Canyon College" in Idaho. I bet they don't even teach them which hole an enema tube goes in.

Re:Real Victim

[general_re]

MIT isn't accredited at all, last I heard, under the theory that people already know they're just fine.

MIT is very much accredited. "Everybody knows they're just fine" is not nearly enough to continue in business, not least because neither the federal government nor any state will extend grants or loans to students attending institutions that are not accredited by a recognized governing body. No accreditation = no $$$$, period. Recognized accreditation commissions are organized regionally in the United States - the US Department of Education would probably be the best place to start for a comprehensive list.

The reason the organization that accredits UC Berkeley has any clout is that it accredits Berkeley.

Nope. The reason the organization that accredits UC Berkeley has clout is for the same reason the organization that accredits MIT has clout - without it, the money dries up and the joint either shuts down or converts over to a for-profit trade school.

Re:Real Victim

[This is outrageous!]

Do a google search on "Trinity Southern University" and "resume". See all the asshats who paid for their degree! Laugh at them!

Or at those who hire them? Among the scariest results:

Atlanta - Governor Sonny Perdue made appointments today to the Georgia Board of Industry, Trade and Tourism, State Board of Nursing Home Administrators, and the State Board of Dispensing Opticians.

(...)

State Board of Dispensing Opticians
***** *****, 54, Jonesboro, GA - ***** has been a licensing optician in Georgia since 1978. She is currently an optical industry consultant, lecturer, course developer, and author. *****'s prior positions include owning and operating a Pearle Vision Center franchise and an All About Eyes Vision Center. She was previously named Optician of the Year by the Opticians Association of Georgia. ***** has a bachelors of science degree from Trinity Southern University as well as extensive professional training.

Re:Real Victim

[kfergos]

The real victim is the boss who hires the cat with a PhD only to find the cat ruling everything a week later.

Re:Real Victim

[Guppy06]

"That's funny because at my university we've got tons of foreign exchange students from the UK. Why? Because the UK's higher education is horrific and they'll admit it."

Britons that go to school in the US say UK schools suck? Methinks you need to learn a thing or two about proper statistical sampling.

Re:Real Victim

[batemanm]

Its quite clear that people in the UK don't understand the concept of majors and minors.

Doing a minor is seen as a way to avoid the hard courses from your degree. The English education system (there is no such thing as the UK education system) acts like a funnel, the fields of study reduce and you specialise in one field for your degree. Some universities insist that you study three subjects in your first year but will generally ignore or perhaps lightly weight your marks for your first year when deciding on your degree classification.

because you really cant get a good education with out it being at least somewhat well rounded.

In Scottish universities you can do a 'well-rounded' degree by taking only first/second year courses. They are seen as having failed your degree since they usually mean that you were unable to complete courses from the honours level (third/fouth year).

Re:Real Victim

[gymell]

Even if that is the "general perception," that doesn't mean it's correct. When I applied to the University of Georgia, I applied to the School of Music there, did an audition and started from day one with a majority of my classes being in my major. On top of that, took all the regular core curriculum (history, literature, science, etc.), as well as three years of German. Music is a very rigorous, specialized major, and I know people who double majored in music and other specialized fields. I'll put my level of coursework and degree specialization up against any UK degree anytime.

Re:Real Victim

[nomadic]

In the UK, the general perception is that a degree from a university in the USA is equivalent to a set of good A-levels (exams taken at age 18, usually in 3 subjects, sometimes in 5) in the UK

Then the general impression in the UK is wrong.

Re:Real Victim

[nomadic]

How would you find out easily? Universities are accredited by different organizations.

There are only a handful of reputable accrediting agencies. It's not really that hard to tell if a school is legitimate or not.

Re:Real Victim

[shalla]

There are reputable books on colleges. For starters, you could go to Peterson's and look up the name of the college or university.

Also, accrediting bodies are okayed by the US Secretary of Education. For more on that, see http://www.ed.gov/admins/finaid/accred/index.html.

Re:Real Victim

[Anonymous Coward]

Minors in no way affect the courses you need to take for your Major. You are required to meet all requirements for both the Major and the Minor.

Re:Real Victim

[cas2000]

> How would you find out easily? Universities are
> accredited by different organizations.

that's exactly the problem with US universities.

civilised countries have a government-backed accreditation process with defined standards that all universities have to meet or exceed. if they don't meet the standard, they're not accredited. end of story.

this will be news to Americans, but you just can't rely on the so-called Free Market to solve *ALL* problems.

Dr Derek Smart Dr

[Anonymous Coward]

Seeing as this is a story about degree mills, I was wondering if I could make a joke about Derek Smart?
Thanks

Re:Dr Derek Smart Dr

[hajihill]

Seeing as this is a story about degree mills, I was wondering if I could make a joke about Derek Smart?
Thanks

Evidently, you could not.

Next?

Re:Dr Derek Smart Dr

[Anonymous Coward]

So Derek Smart's cat has a MBA, and he was lying about the furball having a PHD?

They had other problems:

[BostonPilot]

They also could not spell:

Perspective students submit a detailed self-evalution for the degree of their choice, BA, BS, MA, MBA, or PhD. A TSU registrar will evaluate your application within 5-7 days and contact you via email with the results of their evaluation.

Re:They had other problems:

[Anonymous Coward]

That's okay. An real university I know submitted their paper calendar with a mistake on every header of every page for the "Facutly of Graduate Studies". There must be thousands of copies. Ouch! I made sure I kept a copy -- it might be a collector's item someday :-)

Re:They had other problems:

[JamesP]

Perspective students submit a detailed self-evalution for the degree of their choice, BA, BS,

I want a degree in Bullshit!!! Yay!

Spam?

[gmuslera]

In a world when you risk being sued by putting in your name even part of silly/generic/etc trademarked names, there is nothing that impedes to call itself "university" and even giving PhD to such things?

Of course, just for sending spam they should be closed, burn in hell, pay millons to each spammed victim and so on, but i see a better irony in my previous concern.

Re:Spam?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course YOU'D be happy letting some ad-hoc standards group, perhaps controlled by the gov't, to decide what was "real" education and what wasn't.

I'm willing to put up with a large number of "unaccredited" schools if it means that those schools can continue to exist.

Just because YOU think you have a handle on the TRUTH, it doesn't mean that you should have the right to close down those who believe otherwise.

Why is anyone surprised???

[Joey Vegetables]

From the article:

Besides spamming, this self-described school has, as another reader points out, "awarded an MBA to a cat owned by an undercover Pennsylvania deputy attorney general."

Thereby reducing the average IQ of cats, while greatly increasing that of MBAs.

Re:Why is anyone surprised???

[tootlemonde]

Thereby reducing the average IQ of cats, while greatly increasing that of MBAs.

The poster is alluding to a quote by Mark Twain:

If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
- Notebook, 1894

More Twain quotes on cats here.

Re:Why is anyone surprised???

[kiwimate]

Based on a former New Zealand prime minister's comments? From the International Herald Tribune:

"New Zealanders are mostly comfortable with their larger neighbor, Australia, although jokes fly in both directions. The late Prime Minister Robert Muldoon once was heckled that he had ruined the economy so badly that most New Zealanders were migrating to Australia. "They are merely raising the average IQ levels in both countries," he shot back."

Re:Why is anyone surprised???

[jdaily]

Based on a former New Zealand prime minister's comments?

Doubtful; that joke has been flying around for decades in different forms. In my area, it involves cities seceding to Kentucky and thereby raising the average IQ of both states.

Re:Why is anyone surprised???

[Anonymous Coward]

Thereby reducing the average IQ of cats

How? Do they also have a program that can turn MBA's into certified cats? If so, do the MBA's get to pick their new breed, or is it just the alleycat variety?

Re:Why is anyone surprised???

[Trogre]

Sort of like:

When a linux user defects to a using windows, the average intelligance of both parties increases.

Re:Why is anyone surprised???

[Anonymous Coward]

When a linux user defects to a using windows...

Except that "cat" and "man" mean something entirely different to a Linux user.

What happens when you don't force accreditation

[Nine Tenths of The W]

I'll take Britain's godless socialised education every day over educational free market capitalism. Employers shouldn't have to waste time determining whether a university is real or not. This is just as disruptive as the fear of litigation that prevents people giving bad references

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[cj_goth]

But surely having this kind of free market situation in education just leads to a new business opportunity - that of independant certification/grading of university degrees? And market forces would quickly shake out the "bad" certification firms vs the "good" ones. (OK, OK, I take on board the Arthur Anderson/Enrom case and others, where the market broke down).

For every problem the market creates, it can usually find a solution too.

[qualifier - I am a product of the UK education system; I'm commenting "in theory" here, not slamming the US education system...]

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[justin_speers]

So you're suggesting we outlaw all private universities?

Exactly how did capitalism encourage this sort of behavior? Do you even know what capitalism is?

In a "Godless socialised education" system, there's no incentive to succeed whatsoever. When public schools do bad, they just get more money, and their "customers" have no choice. They are forced to go to them. Monopolies are bad, especially when the Government has them.

Anti-capitalists like the poster above are so quick to scream fire every time something fails that isn't run by the Government.

Here's how it is in the real world: This school scammed people, and now they'll pay the price. Their behavior is NOT being rewarded, either in profits or the whole staying out of prison thing. If capitalism means being greedy and earning money, then the people running this school are bad capitalists. I'm pretty sure they won't be making much money as a direct result of their actions.

The same thing happened to Enron. They did dumb stuff, now they're out of business. The market fixed the behavior. That's what happened here. Simply because A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL school has acted unethically and illegally random zealouts like you are going to start screaming for more Government intervention.

I would still take a mediocre private education over the best our Government can offer, thanks.

Capitalism isn't utopia, but socialism is so much farther from utopia it isn't funny. Taking random and fairly isolated incidents like this and citing them as an example of the failures of capitalism is borderline retarded. Especially seeing as how the U.S. is regulating more and more of our daily lives every day. We're hardly capitalist over here anymore. State capitalism would be a better phrase.

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[will_die]

It is not really a problem. Thier are several well known accreditation boards which are accepted. The boards range in accrediting the whole school to ones that accredit just a degree.
As for employees most don't worry about it. Thier is a set of books which they use, they look up the school and can check who it is a accedited by and dates. The human resource department does this, at the same time it is verifing that the person actually graduated.

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[dAzED1]

sure, it can usually find a solution...one that costs the pleebs what little money they have.

Does what you're proposing sound *efficient* to you? Who do you think would pay for that certification? The student who becomes a worker. Why? because either the school pays for it directly (which filters down, with a surcharge, to the student), the student pays for it directly, or the employer pays for it directly (which filters down, in the form of it costing more to hire the student, thus the student is worth less pay).

OR...and this is just an idea...the inefficient "free market" BS can be muzzled a little by having places that call themselves "universities" slammed and their owners put in prison.

Want to see the economy do well? Improve *efficiency*. There's a reason the worker production figures are so important, you know.

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[Albanach]

In a "Godless socialised education" system, there's no incentive to succeed whatsoever. When public schools do bad, they just get more money, and their "customers" have no choice. They are forced to go to them. Monopolies are bad, especially when the Government has them.

With your great education have you even looked at education beyond your own borders? Do you think other governments aren't capable of recognising the place for rewarding success? Do you think governments are incapable of intervening when they see failure?

In the UK there's no obligation to go to your local school, you can pick any as long as you have the grades to get accepted - and others in Europe can pick one of our universities too. Yet in the US if you don't have the necessary cash you may well be forced to stay in state and go to a local school rather than explore the best that should be available to your academic ability.

I would still take a mediocre private education over the best our Government can offer, thanks.

Ever head of Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Glasgow, Edinburgh? If your government can't offer better perhaps it's time you elect a new government? Free market education determines that access is based as much on wealth as it is on academic ability. That's plain wrong.

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[The-Bus]

Is it that hard for an employer to get an HR intern or lackey to compile a list of all "real" universities in the US? Wouldn't this be as simple as getting the latest U.S. News & World Report college guide and looking at their top 200 list? (Or at least their directory).

(Also referencing this post).

I could understand if you were checking on high schools (does Arco, ID have a Butte County High School, and are they really the Butte Pirates??), but colleges and universities?

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[dAzED1]

you don't get it.

It harms the reputation of ALL online schools, and American schools in general. If a person is born poor, and works his ass off to go to a good school that he can afford...one that isn't well known...then that school is much more likely to be dismissed as worthless by a prospective employer now.

The point isn't that the people who started this online "school" might (since its only "might") go to prison, the point is that the damage is already done, and for every one of these you remove, another dozen will have found a loophole in the unrestrainted market and will be doing the same thing again. A cat got a degree? Ok, so the next fake online school will simply have you verify age, and species. Maybe take a test that any 4th grader could pass, and give you a "MBA" if you pass it. Tada.

The damage is still done. Maybe not to those who can afford to go to internationally reknown Ivy league schools...but not everyone can afford to go to those. There is a happy medium between complete government control, and none at all.

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[wisdom_brewing]

im sorry but how the hell can you group glasgow with oxford, cambridge and lse? edinburgh deserves to be there, probably imperial and warwick as well, but glasgow? come on...

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[CaptainZapp]

In a "Godless socialised education" system, there's no incentive to succeed whatsoever. When public schools do bad, they just get more money, and their "customers" have no choice. They are forced to go to them. Monopolies are bad, especially when the Government has them.

Well, the most recent PISA study pretty much debunks your argument.

While the godless, pinko, commie, socialist, anti-american, linux-using Finns with their wicked socialist public school system came ahead just of about everybody, students from the free enterprise, privatized great nation of the US of A didn't look too well.

Get a clue!

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[ilyaa1]

From Internet Archive: click on the "Accreditation" link on top of the page.

Accreditation

Trinity Southern University and their associates support efforts worldwide of educators that strive to improve delivery and content of education this century. Prior learning assessments are thought by some to be significantly changing higher education, it is not a new phenomenon.

Trinity Southern University has been accreditated by the National Association of Prior Learning Assessment Colleges.

Why, but that's splendid! Noteworthy is that Google has no idea of such an association, but hey...

Here is the hitch, though: this is pretty normal rhethoric for many common "business" schools. You actually expect this kind of stuff when you go to school with philosophy, "I give you my money, give me my diploma and don't bug me with all that studying stuff."

I came to U.S. for education... Was I disappointed.

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[pjt33]

In the UK there's no obligation to go to your local school, you can pick any as long as you have the grades to get accepted

If by "school" you mean University then that's true. If you actually mean school then you're forgetting the postcode lottery: really good state schools are so oversubscribed that you have to live with about 100m of the gate to stand a chance of getting in.

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[yeahyeahyeahwhoo]

Generalising socialist policies as "so much farther from utopia it isn't funny" is just as errant as the original poster (who i believe is a bit off). and your examples of enron are very dubious, i doubt the horde of enron employees with their retirement shit down the toilet would cite them as a ga-lorious example of free market correction, our liberal nutjob FTC and SEC should have coughed up that hairball at least 5 years earlier. The best schools here are among the best in the world, and they attract the brightest students in the world, but we also have plenty of hack job schools and renamed churches that hand out degrees here that are pretty much an embarrassment that offer only a token education, if that, and i suppose his point his these institutions could not operate in the UK.

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[Doctor Memory]

Trinity Southern University has been accreditated by the National Association of Prior Learning Assessment Colleges.

Um, I believe the word is accredited...

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[Anonymous Coward]

And lest we forget Manchester, in no small part responsable for the Industrial Revolution, worlds first computer and one of the most lefty unions in the country.

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[TGK]

And in the soulless capitalist education system there's no opportunity to succeed.

Let's run full sprint into your personal educational holy land. We get rid of all property taxes that fund public schools, distributing the money back to the taxpayer so that they can choose a school for their children to attend.

Of course, this means that with a renewed interest in private education the cost of private education will go down, well within the reach of most middle class families.

The lower classes, however, will not have sufficient funds to buy the education their children need to move upward. The worst slums in the country, already difficult to escape under the pathetic excuse for public education the United States presents will become economic death traps. Where there were previously poorly funded and marginally effective schools there will be nothing. Crime rates will skyrocket, land values will plummet.

Of course, states like Michigan are already trying the opposite of this. Lump state property taxes together and distribute evenly across school districts by pupil. The result has been stupendous. Test scores are up. Drop out rates are down. More and more people are being given the chance to escape hereditary poverty.

What you're completely unable to see (and I don't expect you to get it from this post) is that while private solutions offer up superior service at the highest levels, everyone else suffers for it. Education and other programs that benefit the society as a whole aren't about providing the best to the elite. They're about lot leaving anyone out in the cold, about making society as a whole better.

In that sense, private efforts fail us. What private school can afford to educate those who can not afford to pay for education?

Before you launch into the idea of vouchers and government scholarships, realize this. What will the market do to schools that it perceives as being filled with an undesirable peer group?

How do you address the problem that, in a private system there is no incentive to educate the poor?

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[Shihar]

Free market education determines that access is based as much on wealth as it is on academic ability.

Speak for yourself. My Dad went to school with absolutely no help from his parents (who were divorced and very poor). I went to school to a private university on full scholarship. I would trade my private education for the world. There is more then enough floating out there to get you through school. The difference is that you might have to work a little for it instead of waiting for a hand out.

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[Anonymous Coward]

I would trade my private education for the world.

Isn't that supposed to be kingdom/horse ?

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[csbruce]

Well, I for one think spiffing up the old resume with fake Internet accreditations is a great idea!

-- Rev. Dr. C.S. Bruce, BSc(CS), MSc(SC), PhD[CS], MBA, PhD[Psyc], PhD[Theol]

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[csbruce]

Rev. Dr. C.S. Bruce, BSc(CS), MSc(SC), PhD[CS], MBA, PhD[Psyc], PhD[Theol]

Do they have fake military accreditations? I'd love to get a "Arm-ch. Gen." title.

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[gowen]

Tell your facts to shut up, they're contradicting my dogma. America is number one at everything, and any statistics that show otherwise are clearly flawed.

Sheesh.

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[pinkocommie]

You called? O:-)

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[Anonymous Coward]

Your point makes no sense whatsoever. That is a comparison of 15 year olds. Since the vast majority of 15 year olds are in public schools in the United States, all that you have proven is that the public schools in the US are shitty. I think everyone already knew that...

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally as a statistic, I've always considered myself irrelavant.

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[zors]

And because people will know that their school is accredited and their education is worth something, they will get hired. And they may be paid more than those who are not from accredited schools. And since when is the government renowned for doing everything efficiently? Furthermore, just because the government is doing something does not mean it wil be free. Its just you'll have to pay either higher taxes, or some other programs will be cut to fund it. And are you really rejecting the (i thought) universally accepted theory that free markets lead to better products?

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[Kupek]

I would still take a mediocre private education over the best our Government can offer, thanks.

You can't be serious. Some of the best schools in this country are public.

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[FuzzyBad-Mofo]

I cannot overemphasize the need for a good edumacation. A mail order degree is no replacement for a true collage experience!

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[Bob Uhl]

Here anyone is free to start a university. If it's good, it'll be recognised. It may even be accredited (which just means that some organisation approves of it). If it's bad, it'll fail.

Freedom is nice.

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[Anonymous Coward]

I came to U.S. for education... Was I disappointed.

If you were disappointed, this is largely your fault. Expend some effort! No one is going to make you choose a good school, or get anything out of your classes, that's up to you.

I don't have much experience with the U.K. higher ed system, but I do with the U.S. and several different systems in other European countries. Everyone seems to feel K-12 in the U.S. is a joke, but the equal joke is that it's the place you want to come for University study, as most univeristies elsewhere are the joke (notable exceptions aside).

So go right on being disappointed that your university education didn't meet your expectations. It'll prepare you to be disappointed when your career doesn't meet your expectations either (since I'm sure you'll put in an equal amount of effort).

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[Anonymous Coward]

I would trade...
...more then enough...

I really try hard not to be a grammar nazi when reading slashdot posts, but if you're going to post touting your education take a little care and proofread a bit. As an actual graduate I get embarrassed just reading it.

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[Pickas]

Sorry in advance for feeding the troll

The U.S. spending more money on AIDs research then double the rest of the world

This statistic has nothing to do with global responsibility. With all respect to those people who are dying of AIDS it is not, on a global level, a particularily huge problem. Far more people die of heart disease, cancer, etc.
Besides, most of the research done on AIDS is performed by large corporations who want to sell AIDS drugs to the world. It is not a measure of altruism - it is a measure of economic force.

Same with foreign aid. Why should Canada help out Haiti? Why should the rest of the world? The US doesn't help out everyone in need, only those whose wellbeing will directly affect the US. Who is the largest contributor to Nauru? I'm willing to bet it is not the US.

Haiti needs money to keep it's citizens from fleeing to the US. And, like every other country in the world, the US only spends money on what benefits them The US spends billions on foreign aid to Israel as well. Is this because it's people are starving? Or their education system is lacking? No - it is because it serves the US well to have a Mid-East ally in a position to crush the combined armies of their 2nd and 3rd world neighbours.

Perhaps some of that money spent on some community based universities might do more good to the US maintaining it's knowledge/power base than much of it's foreign "aid".

Re:What happens when you don't force accreditation

[Snaller]

I would still take a mediocre private education over the best our Government can offer, thanks.


That's because you have had a mediocre education...

Better mirror

[Zen Punk]

Has Timothy(or the submitter) never heard of The Internet Archive?

You can actually look at the pictures, too.

Re:Better mirror

[salemnic]

Yes, indeed, and for everyone with unregulated internet access, the Internet Archive is a great source. However, archive.org is considered a "proxy avoidance device" by many enterprise web content management (such as WebSense) applications, and that is blocked to us shmoes behind a corporate "Shield". Google cache, on the other hand, is not.

I'm not saying I know the particulars of the situation, but if I submitted it, this would be my method too.

Cheers,

-s.

I don't understand

[Icarus1919]

I really don't understand the furor over this. It wouldn't be the first college degree mill out there, and it certainly won't be the last. The only one whom people who get this sort of degree are cheating is themselves. I mean, sure, at first it may seem like they are cheating employers that take this sort of thing at face value, but it'll be pretty obvious once they start fucking up their job royally because they don't know what they're doing.

Re:I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

So? Just because you get a degree the legit way, doesn't mean you know what you're doing. Just look at the recent /. article about employes with terrible spelling.

http://slashdot.org/articles/04/12/07/2143259.sh tm l?tid=133&tid=187&tid=95

My psychology teacher in college didn't know the difference between Freud and Jung. Degrees don't mean anything anymore. It's just paper.

Re:I don't understand

[Lumpy]

I am not condoning degree mills but what you say is certainly not always right.

there is a guy that used to work here that did get his MBA from a degree mill... he paid $1500.00 for it and had it in 12 days.

he used it to get into this place, HR is typically stupid and will only hire people with degrees, he had over 20 years of experience in his field but no degree, hell he was better than the MBA's here.

over the 5 years I worked with him we became friends and he confided in me this fact.

he left here over a year ago because he saw the bull crap that management was pulling. He now works as a department manager in a competing company, making more money and has been commended twice with awards there already.

sorry, but my friend that bought his fake degree to get around cooperate HR stupidity.

and I am sure that many people do that more and more.

I do not condone it, I believe that you need to be forced to waste 4 years of your life and tens of thousands of dollars just like I did so you can gain that piece of paper that really does not way anything about your abilities.

Re:I don't understand

[Feanturi]

I've been getting these diploma spam emails for almost as long as there has been spam, and it always struck me as fraud and made me wonder why they weren't being arrested. You're not just cheating yourself, you get cheated as well, and for money. That's fraud, as it devalues the real thing, and fleeces the ignorant. It's about time someone started getting in trouble for it, only took like 11 years or so.

Re:I don't understand

[kiwimate]

Just look at the recent /. article about employes with terrible spelling.

Beautiful.

Re:I don't understand

[Kombat]

I do not condone it, I believe that you need to be forced to waste 4 years of your life and tens of thousands of dollars just like I did so you can gain that piece of paper that really does not way [sic] anything about your abilities.

I disagree that getting a degree does not "way" ("say"?) anything about a person's abilities. It says they are capable of learning. It says they can get the work done when needed. It says they can perform under pressure. It says they are dedicated, committed, and organized.

Of course, depending on the degree, not all of these attributes will be guaranteed in high doses, but a lazy idiot with poor work ethic is not capable of getting a BSc. from an accredited university.

Re:I don't understand

[Lumpy]

you never met any of my roommates from college.

One in particular, spent the first 2 years completely drunk. Daddy was rich, and he bought most of his grades through cheating. I remember him turning in an essay in the same class I was in and I knew for a fact he did not work on it.

many people tried ratting on him, it never went far.

Sad part is that he is a Regional VP for a large communications company now.

I have seen more people slide their way through college in a way that would normally get them fired outright from a real job.

Re:I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

" but a lazy idiot with poor work ethic is not capable of getting a BSc. from an accredited university."

bullshit, i know from experience that the only prerequisite for a college diploma (from an accredeted university or otherwise) is the ability to pay tuition fees.

The only thing they teach in college is how to deal with bloated and corrupt beauracracies, and while that is an important life-skill, it isn't exactly what theyre supposed to be there for.

Re:I don't understand

[poot_rootbeer]

The only one whom people who get this sort of degree are cheating is themselves.

As well as legitimate degree-holders from any school whose name isn't deeply ingrained in the public consciouness as legitimate. Sure, everyone knows a degree from "the University of Pennsylvania" is legit. But what about "Pennsylvania Polytechnical College"? Or "Pennsylvania Institute of Technology"? Hint: I made up one of the latter two.

it'll be pretty obvious once they start fucking up their job royally because they don't know what they're doing.

The Peter Principle applies. They may never find themselves in a position where their fraudulence is exposed. Meanwhile, they coast by, collecting a paycheck while better employees struggle to pay back their student loans.

Re:I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

"It'll be pretty obvious once they start fucking up their job royally because they don't know what they're doing."

No these people will get hired as a manager of and IT department. For fear of the company looking like it has done the wrong thing will NEVER get rid of them. Meanwhile in all likelihood my dumb ass has to report to them.

Re:I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

... it'll be pretty obvious once they start fucking up their job royally because they don't know what they're doing.

Unless they go into politics

Re:I don't understand

[DaveKAO]

It wouldn't be the first college degree mill out there, and it certainly won't be the last.

Yeah, just look at THE Ohio State University!
(disclaimer: I am a Michigan fan, couldn't resist.)

Re:I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

You sound like a student trying to justify your existence. In 20+ years working, I've worked with PHd's, MBA's, No Degrees, etc, and from a practical perspective it's very hard to tell the difference between any of them for the most part. One thing of interest however; some highly degreed individuals we're extremly incompetent, but I've never worked with a non-degree who wasn't brilliant.

Re:I don't understand

[dbIII]

I've been getting these diploma spam emails for almost as long as there has been spam, and it always struck me as fraud

Next thing some software company will let you call yourself an engineer after a little bit of study and a multi-choice exam. Oh, you say, that's not fair, a MSCE can require MONTHS of study and is really hard - so it should have the same name as a professional qualification requiring years of study, relevent work experience, and recognition from your peers.

Re:I don't understand

[Feanturi]

I never valued MCSE and others anyway, and never obtained them, for the exact silliness to it that you imply. I make that point known whenever someone brings up certifications in conversation.

What is wrong with that?

[Alwin Henseler]

"On Trinity Southern's Web site, where the price for a doctorate is $499, the school said it awards degrees "to individuals with the same working knowledge as a recent college graduate from a traditional university."

So why shouldn't they award a degree to a cat, if the cat shows it has the working knowledge, is worthy of carrying that degree?

The deputy attorney should be proud to have a cat that smart!

Sign the petition now! Equal rights for cats & people!

Re:What is wrong with that?

[Anonymous Coward]

the school said it awards degrees "to individuals with the same working knowledge as a recent college graduate from a traditional university."

The cat probably did have the same working knowledge as recent college graduates...

Re:What is wrong with that?

[Anonymous Coward]

But why would a cat ever want to be treated the same as a human?

Meow

[Anonymous Coward]

I could never decided whether it was the stench of used kitty liter pouring out of that dorm that disturbed us most, or more the more likely culprit the amazing grades that damn cat got.

uce@ftc.gov

[Dachannien]

Like most people, I get way too much spam to forward every single piece to the FTC. But I *do* make it a point, whenever a piece of spam for fraudulent university degrees makes it past my filters, to send those e-mails along.

I wouldn't mind so much if:

* Getting a college degree at any level weren't so much work
* Getting a college degree at any level didn't cost so much
* There weren't so many underprivileged highly intelligent people who never get college degrees because they can't afford it or are under the impression that they can't get financial aid

Re:uce@ftc.gov

[xtracto]

Well that's the problem of living in a country where the education is kind of private, in other countries (like Mexico) high education does not cost that much so everyone can afford it.

Re:uce@ftc.gov

[saider]

Financial aid is out there. There are thousands of organizations that must give the money away in order to maintain their non-profit status. Applying for them is the hard part. There are companies that will sell you a list, and they will give you your money back if you cannot get any money.

Here is a short list of scholarships and grants that I or my friends have received...
1) $500 per semester because I like to target shoot.
2) $2500 for my roomate because she was a redhead.
3) $1200 per semester for my friend who liked to rebuild Mustangs
4) $1250 per semester for my wife who is in nursing school (plus insurance for herself and two kids for $500 per quarter).

None of these programs had any real requirements other than being enrolled. All we had to do is ask for the money.

Re:uce@ftc.gov

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, even worse that these people actually get past HR departments from time to time :(

Re:uce@ftc.gov

[LetterJ]

The "high cost of higher education" in the United States is at least in part due to an attempt to go to the "right" school.

Before graduating, I attended a community college (instead of my final year of high school), a private university and a state university. While I would regard them in the exact order that they are usually regarded, there's no way that the private university was 6 times better (the tuition difference) than the state university.

St. Cloud State University (where I graduated) has one of the most respected business programs in the state of Minnesota and has a current cost for annual tuition (2 semesters including fees and books) of $6050. In other words, you can get an entire education for the cost of a new Toyota. And, with most of the loan programs here, you can finance the cost over 10 years and, in many cases, not pay anything until you graduate. That compared with car loans that only go for 5-6 years.

Which is going to get you further in life? A new car (and LOTS of folks buy them each year) or a 4 year degree?

Re:uce@ftc.gov

[Pseud0]

I live in Sweden, and here higher education is free for everyone.

We even get governmental funding (~ $350/month, and the posibility to take a government funded loan for another 500$/month). Everyone can do it here, for free.

In fact - if you're a foreign student who comes here to study - it's also free.

from the can-they-get-to-university-of-phoenix-soo

[REBloomfield]

from the can-they-get-to-university-of-phoenix-soon department?

I'm a Brit, and I may have missed something, but isn't the UoP similar to our Open University? In which case, isn't this statement a bit harsh?

Sounds like MIT

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like MIT. I get in the neighborhood of 50 daily spams from machines hosted by MIT. Have for the last year or so. And it's not like they don't know about it. I've sent dozens of complaints to them, both in email and snail mail, and have been continually ignored. MIT = spamhaus

Re:Sounds like MIT

[peter303]

I get phone calls and emails all the time asking me for money because I went there some years back. Not all that different form the other spams.

Re:Sounds like MIT

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not SPAM, and certainly not limited to MIT.

Cat with an MBA

[Nine Tenths of The W]

Let's see, cats:
Expect everyone else to do the hard work
Fuck things up and cause damage through boredom
Demand the best of everything without being willing to work for it
Boss people around
Fly into fits of rage
Have short attention spans
Spend 21 hours a day resting

Is there any reason a cat shouldn't have an MBA?

Re:Cat with an MBA

[ej0c]

See my job posting.
Ability to walk the sidewalks daily, hunched over, with a 5-lb radio strapped to your belt is a plus.

Ability to notice that the new faux-brick sidewalks are already crumbling is above and beyond the call of duty.

Re:Cat with an MBA

[Epistax]

Well, most cats are house broken...

Sign the petition now! Equal rights for cats &

[Anonymous Coward]

Meow, mew mew meow? (Yea, Isn't it about time?)

Re:from the can-they-get-to-university-of-phoenix-

[Nine Tenths of The W]

Some of them are like the OU, some aren't. We have a law demanding accreditation for any body describing itself as a university, whereas the US has a laissez faire approach

Dr. Katz

[cj_goth]

I bet my cat could get a PhD

Well, as per the article, if your cat has a spare $499 it's his. Unless the PA DA gets to the "online university" first. Mind you, $499 buys a lot of tuna steak ...

You can almost hear Alton Poe, the Vice Chancellor, kicking himself for awarding that degree ... "I had a really bad feline about that applicant..."

Re:Dr. Katz

[NardofDoom]

Mind you, $499 buys a lot of tuna steak ...

But, like any degree, it's an investment that brings you greater future earnings. So if you forego a little tuna steak now, you'll be able to afford a lot later.

Wouldn't be surprised.

[BitwizeGHC]

Tycho's cat maybe got his MCSE from that place.

Catbert

[Antity-H]

Wouldn't the Ph.Ded cat be called Catbert by any chance ?

Re:from the can-they-get-to-university-of-phoenix-

[Doomie]

UoP has extremely annoying ads on pretty much all the websites that I visit. I don't know anything about the quality of its programs, but they surely invested a hell lot of money in promoting their 'accredited online degrees' and thereby pissed off lots of people.

And here's where you can give them your money

[pdjohe]

Here's the google cache for the order form:

Get your degree now!

:)

Re:And here's where you can give them your money

[DevNova]

Wow. If I fill out that form and send in the money, I can have a Ph.D. awarded to me when I was 12!

That's DR. Howser to you!

There goes my three income family!

[Trillan]

My two cats were supposed to help me bring in a higher family income.

Odd

[TitusC3v5]

My first thought when I read the headline was "Wow...Tycho and Gabe are on the OTHER side of the lawsuit for once."

My bird couldn't get a degree ... :(

[DikSeaCup]

He'd get in trouble for talking in class and has a short attention span. He can't sit still for long, and doesn't follow instructions.

Wait a minute - I used to get in trouble for talking in class! And my attention span is selective ... I do however manage to sit still, but I only follow instructions when not following them doesn't get me anywhere ...

Hmmm ... maybe my lovebird *could* get a degree!

Re:from the can-they-get-to-university-of-phoenix-

[REBloomfield]

ah... I know Oxford and Liverpool do online *only* programmes as well, Diploma dn MSc resepctively... never heard any complaints.

New career!

[stink_butt]

A cat with an MBA? I wonder if he is hiring? Is "Litter Box Engineer" higher up than Code Monkey?

Re:from the can-they-get-to-university-of-phoenix-

[philbert26]

I'm a Brit, and I may have missed something, but isn't the UoP similar to our Open University? In which case, isn't this statement a bit harsh?

I think the UoP annoys people because it has so many ads online. It is also a favourite study location for PHBs.

My old boss did an MS there, and the course looked pretty good. It was "Information Management", which is not quite computer science, but the CS parts looked OK to me.

Not all distance learning is a scam

[The Mutant]

There is an active on-line community at DegreeInfo.com who research and discuss the merits of each institution.

Here in the UK The Open University has been providing fully accredited distance learning since the early 70's.

I went to a brick and mortar Uni myself, but have worked with several graduates of such institutions, both in the banking and academic worlds (I'm a banker and part time visiting lecturer at a local Uni), and they were fine; like most things, you get out of it what you put into it.

Re:Not all distance learning is a scam

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who dropped out of 6th form due to a drug problem, I can't sing the OU's praises enough. I just wish we had a GED equivalent as well.

Re:Not all distance learning is a scam

[XxtraLarGe]

I work for a Distance Learning program which has several accredited online degrees. While most of the students who take online courses usually couple them with brick and mortar classes, there are some degrees, such as Diagnostic Medical Sonography, which you can take entirely online.

Re:Not all distance learning is a scam

[Gruuk]

I've read about The Open University; in fact, in the early 70s, its success served as the inspiration for the Tele-Universite (text in french), which started to offer distance-learning classes in 1974. Since it was a part of the "Universite du Quebec", it was fully accredited from the start. Now, they offer well over 300 different classes in 65 different programs, most of which geared towards working adults studying part-time.

Without it, I wouldn't have been able to go back to school and earn a degree ; I'm still taking classes to earn another, higher one. At only about 250CAD per 3 credit class (you need 90 credits if you want a bachelor's degree, for example), including books and fees, it's affordable enough for me, especially since I can deduct all my tuition fees on my income tax form.

You TRULY insensitive clod!

[Anonymous Meoward]

I really am pursuing an MBA!
-- Anonymous Meoward

Re:You TRULY insensitive clod!

[elgatozorbas]

I really am pursuing an MBA!

You mean purrrrsuing an MBA...

Re:You TRULY insensitive clod!

[elgatozorbas]

I really am pursuing an MBA!

Or actually purring ans suing...

Re:You TRULY insensitive clod!

[jd]

That's because the MBA is attached to a piece of string and is being dragged across the floor.

Re:You TRULY insensitive clod!

[Anonymous Meoward]

That's because the MBA is attached to a piece of string and is being dragged across the floor

Now that's not funny! Why, I've been.. is that a rubber band? I like rubber bands. Ever chew on one? Kinda hard to pick up with no thumbs, but..

Re:You TRULY insensitive clod!

[Kehvarl]

no, it's not a rubber band, it's medium-grit sand paper. a feline delicacy, I can assure you (as 5 of my past 5 cats have gone to great lengths to procure and masticate the stuff).

Re:You TRULY insensitive clod!

[ChairmanMeow]

MBAs are for dogs. I's rather pursue a PhD in Physics. Either that or a mouse on a string.

Re:from the can-they-get-to-university-of-phoenix-

[Lumpy]

if you know your field like MIS or CS then you can basically sleep through the classes and graduate suma cum laude.

the sad part is that it costs you MORE than a midlevel real college.

Too early

[Kernel Panic]

Am I the only one that read that thinking Penny Arcade was suing a university?

Wow!

[Bilzmoude]

So, they say:

TSU gives qualifying adults the opportunity to convert what is learned in life a college degree.

Interesting grammar... Shouldn't there be a "to" in there? What crap! What self-respecting person would tout a Masters degree without ever taking a single course to get it?

New name

[Israfels]

That's DR. Socks to you buddy!

SCO, RIAA, and the MPAA may be in trouble.
We found the source of the lawyers!

Re:New name

[ChairmanMeow]

I think I'm going to have to get a new username.

Our Village Hall Needs that Cat!

[ej0c]

Amazingly, the Village Council hired a member's son-in-law as village administrator. His credentials (completely unchecked, of course) included just such a fine degree. He would step into the middle of a complete downtown rennovation project.

Three years later, he has returned to Arkansas (thankfully!), but has taken with him $45,000 in severance pay. His computer remains at the state Bureau of Criminal Investigation, the rumor being it may contain child porn.

And the Village has a new $100k street sweeper no one wanted. Meanwhile the police department mucks through on 25Mhz Pentium I desktops.

The Administrator position is open. We can pay the cat well.

Re:Our Village Hall Needs that Cat!

[cnettel]

25 MHz Pentium Is would be a quite valuable rarity.

Like: "50 MHz bus, 1/2 CPU frequency multiplier".

I even believed your story until reading that!

Re:Our Village Hall Needs that Cat!

[sydbarrett74]

Uh, dude...The Pentium was introduced at 60MHz...

Re:Our Village Hall Needs that Cat!

[ej0c]

Sorry perhaps they meant 75Mhz. I have enough trouble keeping track of the current processors, not to mention Dell's lovely move to use the same model number on systems with different bus speeds.

Use of acronyms in subject titles

[iphayd]

What does this have to do with Penny Arcade?

Re:Use of acronyms in subject titles

[Momoru]

Last time i checked PA the abrieviation for Pennsylvania has been around alot longer then PA the acronym for Penny Arcade. But Pennsylvania has always suffered from people biting off it. First came "Public announcement" (the "PA" system), then Physician Assistants, Public Attorney, Public Accountant, etc

Re:Use of acronyms in subject titles

[pjt33]

Personal Assistant. That would be my first guess without context. Never having been to the USA, I'm not entirely au fait with its state codes.

Re:Use of acronyms in subject titles

[iphayd]

I realize that. My point still stands that when I read the article, I read it as "Penny Arcade Sues 'University' For Spamming" the first time, then I had to read the summary to figure out who PA actually was, thus making the headline completely useless as a summarizing tool.

Re:Use of acronyms in subject titles

[Anonymous Coward]

First came "Public announcement" (the "PA" system), then Physician Assistants, Public Attorney, Public Accountant

Until finally, we now have Pedantic Arsehole

Can't artists get degrees?

[mangu]

Can't one get a PhD in visual arts? I assume that knowledge on using perspective would be needed for that.

Re:Can't artists get degrees?

[dAzED1]

you so funny ;)

Perhaps a thing for this Doctorow ...

[foobsr]

...
Homeland security honcha has phony PhD
A senior technical official in the Homeland Security Department has a phony Ph.D. from a diploma mill. I'm thinking that I'd like to get one of these and join my parents (Dr. and Dr. Doctorow) as Dr. Doctorow, Jr.
(here)

No, no further remark.

CC.

You forgot some victims...

[Libertarian_Geek]

All those cats that put forth the effort and hard work to earn their PHDs.

Heh.

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone with a brain should have read "fraud" from every bit of this. Their website has a web page (thanks to Zen Punk for the archive.org link) about their "accreditation". It's full of buzzwords, and says that they've been accredited by the "National Association of Prior Learning Assessment Colleges". Oddly enough, a Google search for this only produces the page in question, a link to a message board saying that this "university" has been spammed heavily - and a website for the supposed association, which is now off-line. Thankfully, the Way-Back Machine never forgets. Same buzzword bingo on that page, no contact information other than an e-mail address. How anyone could conceivably look at these websites and decide that this was legit is beyond me. Ah, well. They'll get what they deserve.
N.B. There's also a CNN article about this as well, which seems to be a carbon copy of the local story linked in the blurb.

Re:from the can-they-get-to-university-of-phoenix-

[pigscanfly.ca]

Not really. See university of phoenix isnt like your open university in the sense of its funding and the quality of its programs. Something like athabasca is more simnilar to Open University (they actually call them selves Canada's Open University). They are publicly funded and there programs are actually recognized , they might not be the best out there but .....

The illiterate university

[mr_rangr]

Didja look at their site? "Perspective students," and "...convert what is learned in life a college degree,"
And how 'bout that picture of the graduation? Close yer robe, guy! Somehow, I suspect that people who fell for this didn't care about the quality of their degree.

High cost of tuition

[wondafucka]

This is why the nations educational institutions are so expensive. Because cops are going around trying to get cats diploms in sting operations.

Maybe they should try that in drug busts too. Is it even illegal for a cat to buy crack?

Ironically....

[RazorJ_2000]

Ironically, if you know anything about English as a language, then you'll understand just how poor the grammar on their homepage is.

An online University catering to idiots. Only in the USA.

You must not know too many cats...

[benhocking]

Or possibly you do know too many fresh college grads!

I mean really, cats? Work ethic? Call me a speciesist (specist?), but I only hire Ph.D. carrying dogs.

Good

[mwood]

I don't suppose those are the miscreants who have been flooding our network with winpopups essentially offering degrees for sale? "They never will be missed...."

Well, if Dubya could get one...

[Frantactical Fruke]

...an MBA shouldn't be too hard for the average cat, either.

And I wish this to be moderated as '-1: D'uh!'
Thank you.

what is needed is...

[jonwil]

Greater regulation of universities and other institutions offering courses.

Particularly in various fields where having qualifications is important.

Just have some simple rules about what an institution must do in order to be able to legally issue degrees and stuff.

Although most of the phony degree scams I have seen tend to be for crappy degrees anyway.

Re:what is needed is...

[Seraphim1982]

Right more regulation will solve the problem, because all the regulation thrown into prescription drugs has just done wonders for number of places that claim to sell drugs. There needs to be more effort on enforcing the laws that are already in place before a bunch of new ones are passed.

The google cache of their hompeage is revealing.

[untaken_name]

There's nothing that says "quality education" like a "university" with grammatical errors on its homepage.

If You Must

[virg_mattes]

If you must be a pedant, then this isn't a spelling error, it's a usage error. The word "perspective" is spelled correctly, it's just the wrong word to use here.

Carry on.

Virg

Re:If You Must

[Anonymous Coward]

However, the other one - 'evalution' - is a spelling error. Or even a misspelling of a usage error, depending on which word they were trying to spell.

Re:If You Must

[rumblin'rabbit]

I wouldn't think an american university by the name of "Southern Trinity" wouldn teach evalution.

Gillian Mckeith

[lxt]

I believe that Guardian Newspaper ran a small campaign a few months back in their science section about "Dr" Gillian McKeith, the author of "You Are What you Eat", a number 1 book and popular TV programme over here in the UK. It turned out she'd actually got her doctorate from an online institution (it may even have been Trinity Southern, I forget the name) - either way, it was "accredited" by the same bogus board as Trinity Southern (and if you've read her book, it's pretty obvious she has no clue what she's talking about - chlorophyll is apparantly "high in oxygen", and "the 'blood' of the plant will really oxygenate your blood." when you eat it...depite the fact there's no light in your gut...).

The Guardian's point was that millions of people were buying this book under the impression she was an accredited doctor, when in fact she was nothing of the sort. However good her advice may have been, she was still misleading the public over her credentials... see http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/badscience/story/0, 12980,1285600,00.html

In a similar theme, the journalist in question got his cat a "nutrationalist specialist" certificate...

Re:Gillian Mckeith

[gowen]

I believe that Guardian Newspaper ran a small campaign a few months

They did, in their excellent "Bad Science" section. You can read the pieces here and here
Funnily enough, in one piece the journalist obtains one of McKeith's qualifications ... in the name of his cat.

Does anybody know...

[Anonymous Coward]

... the cat's hourly consulting rate? I'm trying to do a business plan and could use some MBA consulting help.

-1 Redundant

[Anonymous Coward]

No, no in fact you were not.

Love,
Anonymous Coward

Depends on what you expect from one

[Moraelin]

In the end, it's not really whether the cat or the dog is smart, it's whether it does what you expect from a pet. That's usually (A) what people mistake for "intelligence" and also (B) what motivates them into grasping at straws for "proof" that their favourite pet is smart.

Some people seem to like the unconditional obedience of an animal hard-coded to obey the pack leader. Even if the "pack leader" is a human.

In that case it's "Bowser is soo smart. He comes here when I call him!" And typically also "bah, cats are dumb/evil/etc because they can't be bothered to obey."

Some of us, on the other hand, have no need for basically a biological Tamagochi hard-wired to obey.

We like a cat precisely _because_ it's independent and doesn't need a "master". Cats are not pack animals, so they really have neither a "master", nor "servants" or "staff". You may be a cat's room mate, or friend, or a danger to be avoided, or (in rare cases) even an enemy. Either way, you can know that it's the cat's genuine assessment of you, and not some hard-wired reflex kicking in.

So we tend to generalize and anthropomorphise the other way around. "Yay, Fluffy is so smart because she can think for herself and doesn't need a master." And conversely "Dogs are complete retards for _needing_ to be someone's slave."

In reality, both points of view are false and based on false premises.

An animal's intelligence is what helps it stay alive in its natural environment, _not_ how well it fits your emotional need. In that aspect, both felines and dogs/wolves are "smart", just in different ways.

Wolves have perfected survival by hunting larger prey in packs, so teamwork and having a pack leader is essential. A lone wolf can't kill, say, a deer, so acting as a pack is what their very survival depends on. So for the pack to work, the animals are basically hard-wired to follow and obey the leader. It's a survival trait.

Felines on the other hand, with some exceptions (e.g., lions), live on prey they can kill one-on-one. Not only they don't need a pack to hunt, and not only there isn't enough meat on their prey to feed a whole pack, but a pack would also get in the way of stealth. If you've watched a cat hunt a mouse, you've noticed that it relies on not being seen until it gets within relatively short range. Trying to do that as a whole pack of cats, would just dramatically increase the chances of being detected early.

Hence, for cats the survival trait was to _not_ follow someone else.

Both approaches work, so they're both intelligent.

Re:Depends on what you expect from one

[Anonymous Coward]

They are both intelligent, but not equally I think. For example: dogs eat/roll around in their own shit or the shit of other dogs. Cats do not. Case closed.

Re:Depends on what you expect from one

[FatBear]

I am in about 98% agreement with you. In fact, most cats will obey, if trained to do so. My cat will obey most reasonable requests, but only after considering it and the reward, first. Thus, he obeys and retains his independence at the same time.

Re:Depends on what you expect from one

[Slime-dogg]

Naturally, I have to disagree.

A good indication of intelligence is behavior, but not dependence or independence.

For instance, has your cat figured out where it's favorite food is stored? I had a cat that loved a particular type of food so much, that when he saw the empty box on the floor, he got his head stuck in the flap while trying to get any remaining food out. Any other type of food was rejected.

Another indication is the understanding of vocabulary. I have a dog that can distinguish between "mommy," "daddy," "Mike," "out," "ball," "where is...," "bone," and "food." There are a number of other words that she responds to, but these are most immediate. You can say "Mommy" to her, for instance, without any type of voice inflection, and the dog will immediately run to my mom. She does the same for "Daddy" and "Mike." If the word "Ball" is used in any context, she runs to where the ball is, and sits there staring expectantly at it.

Dogs also learn "rules." They can be trained to not do things, which could be just a behavioral trait... until the dog does something unexpected. My dog, for instance, will not jump onto the couch next to you unless you pat the coushin. We never trained her to do this. She'll ask to come up by putting her muzzle on the coushin, though.

These things are an indication of intelligence. The dog has the mental ability to associate certain words with certain actions, and understands and sometimes can answer questions. An automaton like a cricket or a cockroach will never be able to do so. Hell, not even a fish could do so. Certain birds display an amount of intelligence, in that they can figure out how mechanical things work... other birds are about as smart as the bugs are.

Word association for dogs is not a natural thing, either. Feral dogs and wolves do not comprehend words, because they do not need to. Before the domestication of dogs, I'm sure that only instincts ruled their behavior. I'm not so sure of that now. Perhaps there's a bit of intelligence that the humans have bred into them.

Re:Depends on what you expect from one

[Anonymous Coward]

In that case it's "Bowser is soo smart. He comes here when I call him!" And typically also "bah, cats are dumb/evil/etc because they can't be bothered to obey."

My cat and my dog both obey my commands.

My cat (a DSH) knows her name (she's about 6 months old), and will come consistently when called. (My old cat, who died a year ago was the same way.)

My dog (Border Collie) knows his name, and will come consistently when called (and has done since he was about 3 months old.)

Cats are not pack animals, so they really have neither a "master", nor "servants" or "staff"

That is incorrect. Cats *can* be pack animals, or *can* be solitary, and they have a very complex social hierarchy when they are part of a group.

Either way, you can know that it's the cat's genuine assessment of you, and not some hard-wired reflex kicking in.

Bullshit. It's as much a cat's "genuine assessment" as a dog's "genuine assessment" would be.

Cats *are* social animals, just as much as dogs are.

Re:Depends on what you expect from one

[Anonymous Coward]

it's favorite food

"its".

Re:Depends on what you expect from one

[Macgrrl]

"its"

"it's"

Apostrophes are used for the following reasons:

1. Contractions - to indicate that one or more letters are missing.

2. Possesive - to indicate that something belongs to the subject. e.g. "The cat tripped over it's feet." or "The cat played with it's ball." or "The cat ate it's favourite food."

The vics?

[matth]

Among the alleged victims are Penn State University and the University of Pennsylvania, as well as numerous Internet service providers, businesses and technology companies. The attorney general's office said abuse of the victims' computer systems was costly and generated undeserved ill will by the recipients.

Ummm no.. sorry but Penn State and the others with open mailservers are not the vics in this case. If you are stupid enough to run an open relay mail server you deserve what you get... (which I would go so far as to say.. is having your computer degree revoked....)... running a secure mail server is basic networking 101...

Re:The vics?

[The Cisco Kid]

Who said they were an open relay?

Maybe the spam was sent *to* staff/students at Penn State and UoP (and the other ISPs and businesses mentioned).

If you send me spam, then I would certainly consider you to be abusing my mailserver. (which is sure damn not an open relay)

Common misconception

[bluGill]

If you have the grades you can go to pretty much any school in the US you want to (ignoring a few single sex schools and the like). If they admit you, you can afford to go.

Our financial aid system works different (different, not better or worse, there are too many downsides to all systems to make a comparison) from yours. Here you get grants if you are poor or a "minority". Above that, you can get loans for the full amount of the tuition bill. Most students and any school are getting some form of financial aid.

Now I will grant that $30,000/year in loans is going to be expensive to pay off. However if you go to a school that charges that much, you should be smart enough, and dedicated enough that paying it off is no problem after you graduate. If you are lazy and just want to do the minimum to get by, you don't want to go to those high priced schools anyway, and they don't want you.

The state I live in, MN, has approximately as 1/4Th as much land as the UK. However I pay in state tuition rates in Wisconsin, and both Dakotas. (all are approximately the same size), so I can pay local rates over as much geographical area. We have much less population, and our universities so there are less schools total. This is not helped by having one university that is second largest in the nation as far as students, but again that is just a point where you cannot compare because the US is setup differently from the UK. Most states have similar deals, so there is a wide range of "local" schools you can choose from.

Re:Common misconception

[Relyx]

Now I will grant that $30,000/year in loans is going to be expensive to pay off. However if you go to a school that charges that much, you should be smart enough, and dedicated enough that paying it off is no problem after you graduate.

I totally agree. However, there is a scenario that I find somewhat troubling. I hold up my hands now and claim to have no solution, but I thought I should just raise it:

Ok, so you pay the fees, graduate and pursue a career within your field. A couple of years go by. You are now a dramatically different person to the naive, studious high school kid who chose that course. What you once loved now feels as though it is slowly killing you, little by little. You know what you really want to do, but to do so means throwing everything you have already done behind you.

When you were earning solid money, it seemed as though those debts were manageable. Now it will take a long long time in your new field to match what you were previously earning.

One may be point out that you should have chosen a different course, or switched while at university, but hindsight is 20/20. You genuinely believed back then that you would spend the rest of your life devoted to you Major. It always seemed odd when others smiled and shook their heads when you told them this.

My take on this dilema: That's unfortunately (?) the way life is. But then again, no one is going to stop you changing your own future. You simply have to ask yourself what standard of living you are prepared to tolerate. If eating out at restaurants, buying Starbucks coffee and filling your shelves with DVDs is more important than your longterm fulfillment, then that's your choice.

Re:Common misconception

[realdpk]

Getting yourself into debt is always a dangerous proposition. It's just a risk you have to accept, if you don't want to (some might say "can't) save up for college beforehand or you don't want to (same here, with the "can't") work while going to school.

Yeah, but

[Raunch]

He's not an MCSE yet, he failed tcp/ip!

Speaking of...

[Raunch]

Speaking of cats, and degrees, and penny-arcade...
He's not an MCSE yet, he failed tcp/ip!

Actual keylog of timothy's post

[goodEvans]

I bet my cat could get a PhD before me^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H.

New bumper sticker...

[csoto]

"My cat is an honors student at Trinity Southern University."

"Perspective students" geez

[csoto]

One would think that an "online university" would have heard about dictionary.reference.com!

Only If...

[DoctorPepper]

I bet my cat could get a PhD.

Only if you forget to scoop the litter box (hint: PHD = 'Piled Higher and Deeper')

believe it or not

[Doc Ruby]

Sounds like one a dem "faith colleges". Isn't prayer just spamming god? Or is that an existing business relationship? Somehow, any opt-out by god seems likely to increase the spamprayer, not end it.

The real criminal

[RealProgrammer]

is the Deputy Attorney General, for falsifying an application.

Trinity is the victim of fraud. Not that they appear to work very hard to avoid it, but why is the DAG working so hard to entrap them?

accreditedness

[slothman32]

Why should a school have to be accredited? Doesn't that just mean some people I have never heard of or didn't elect decided that a school is elite enough to join the other schools? Why should I care what "critics" think? If I want to learn then I should get to pick. I know I put no faith in award like Academy(TM) or otherwise. The only award or accretion I care about is my own.
Now if a school is bad or spams as this one seems to be then that is different. But it is still a university just not one you agree with. It's like the "Time Cube" except not stupid.

I heard this one before...

[evilviper]

this self-described school has, as another reader points out, "awarded an MBA to a cat

This isn't news at all... I heard about this in 1999.

I hear he's getting involved in fiber optics now.

Agreed

[Anonymous Coward]

Pennsylvania needs to do all it can to shut down degree mills like the one mentioned in the article and this, lesser publicized one.

PA in England

[The MESMERIC]

stands for Personal Assistant.
A politically correct term for "that sexy secretary"

So I was here thinking that some Sharon or Tracy - got so fed up with the "Get a diploma" emails arriving at her inbox. She went ahead all by herself to sue them.

Ah well what I got to do with PA-US? ...

And thanks for never publishing my (now old)
article on hackers at Oxford University - UK

Guess if it was Princeton US, or Stanford US it would have been selected.

However, I am not bitter :)
Not at all.
Not a chalk .. not a dime.

*bastards* (/me mumbles)

obligatory smart-ass kid joke

[MyDixieWrecked]

A first-grade teacher, Ms. Brooks, was having trouble with one of her students. The teacher asked, "Harry, what's your problem?"

Harry answered, "I'm too smart for the 1st grade. My sister is in the 3rd grade and I'm smarter than she is! I think I should be in the 3rd grade too!"

Ms. Brooks had had enough. She took Harry to the principal's office.

While Harry waited in the outer office, the teacher explained to the principal what the situation was. The principal told Ms. Brooks he would give the boy a test. If he failed to answer any of his questions he was to go back to the 1st grade and behave. She agreed.

Harry was brought in and the conditions were explained to him and he agreed to take the test.

Principal: "What is 3 x 3?"

Harry: "9".

Principal: "What is 6 x 6?"

Harry: "36".

And so it went with every question the principal thought a 3rd grader should know.

The principal looks at Ms. Brooks and tells her, "I think Harry can go to the 3rd grade."

Ms. Brooks says to the principal, "Let me ask him some questions."

The principal and Harry both agreed.

Ms. Brooks asks, "What does a cow have four of that I have only two of?"

Harry, after a moment: "Legs."

Ms. Brooks: "What is in your pants that you have but I do not have?"

The principal wondered, why would she ask such a question!

Harry replied: "Pockets."

Ms. Brooks: "What does a dog do that a man steps into?"

Harry: "Pants"

Ms. Brooks: What's starts with a C, ends with a T, is hairy, oval, delicious and contains thin, whitish liquid?

Harry: "Coconut."

The principal sat forward with his mouth hanging open.

Ms. Brooks: "What goes in hard and pink then comes out soft and sticky?"

The principal's eyes opened really wide and before he could stop the answer.

Harry: "Bubble gum"

Ms. Brooks: "What does a man do standing up, a woman does sitting down and a dog does on three legs?"

Harry: "Shake hands."

The principal was trembling.

Ms. Brooks: "What word starts with an 'F' and ends in 'K' that means a lot of heat and excitement?"

Harry: "Firetruck"

The principal breathed a sigh of relief and told the teacher, "Put Harry in the fifth-grade, I got the last seven question wrong.

Trinity University...

[DaFallus]

is where I went to school. Last I heard they were also suing this online degree factory.

Re:Trinity University...

[Anonymous Coward]

The real Trinity University (www.trinity.edu) did sue this place and they won. Thats why it is Trinity Southern instead of just Trinity.

I am an online student, you insensitive clod!

[PaleBoy]

Half lame /. joke, half disclaimer.

First off, you state that you know absolutely nothing first or even second hand about online classes. Then you state what online University curriculum doesn't contain, and what can and can't be done in an online course. This doesn't really make any sense- if you know nothing about it, how do can you make these claims? Are you just extrapolating from your own college experience, and assuming that the courses are identical minus the class room?

Regardless of how you came to the conclusion, you would be wrong.

I'll just cover communication, as an example, since you were extra positive on that one. I'm currently in a class (Capella) that coordinated my team, which is scattered across the country, for outlining the IT specs for an outdated company. We've set up a project site, weekly phone meetings with assigned milestones, and collaborated together to create a coherent project. It's been by far the best team work and collaborative project I've ever done for a class, which includes several traditional universities.

Obviously online learning has it's weaknesses, but to just offhand dismiss the entire concept based on a television ad that you didn't like seems to me to be the essence of an...wait for it..."uneducated guess".

Graduates seeking jobs :)

[Handbrewer]

http://www.google.dk/search?q=cache:ruGc3mdWaUcJ:w ww.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6712/personal.html+ %22trinity+southern+university%22&hl=da&client=fir efox-a http://www.free-for-recruiters.com/Resumes/MA/1431 79-Resume.html http://www.free-for-recruiters.com/Resumes/FL/1261 20-Resume.html http://www.google.dk/search?q=cache:cnFsowRBTJEJ:w ww.flexmanager.de/resume-id-31492-lang-EN.html+%22 trinity+southern+university%22&hl=da&client=firefo x-a once caught with those fake degrees, will they ever get a job again? I wonder - what makes people so desperate/lazy/poor to get a college degree that they'd rather take the chance and get a fake one? Now wheres my visa..

Re:Graduates seeking jobs :)

[Handbrewer]

Ups. F... me.

YHBT.THL.HAND

[Anonymous Coward]

FAG

ry to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads.
* Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said.
* Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about.
* Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inapp

Where did you hear that?

[CBDSteve]

Sorry, but that's not been the 'general perception' where I've worked.

I'm a Brit who's worked with plenty of Yanks and there's never been a problem accepting their qualifications. I've never even heard that view expressed!

The US Grads I've met have been obviously well-informed, and there's no comparison with 18 year-old school leavers.

ps - I have a Combined Honours degree, which is the UK version of a Double Major.

Ummm, not so much

[Sycraft-fu]

See in a real university, this wouldn't be a problem. You actually have to go to classes, take tests, etc to get a degree. Thus a cat would never get a degree. I mean I have a cat who is smart, as far as cats go, but whining for food and purring on my lap are about the extent of his communication skills.

The point is that they clearly issue degrees with no actualy check of skills.

Penny Arcade?

[dillon_rinker]

Am I the only one who read the headline as "Penny Arcade sues..."?

Re:Penny Arcade?

[Anonymous Coward]

No.

Re:Penny Arcade?

[DarkTempes]

ahmen. who would have thought pennsylvania, i mean really, come on! news for geeks. PA == penny arcade >=/

You're *proud* of your education?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would trade my private education for the world. There is more then enough floating out there to get you through school.

I think you should go ask for your money back.

High cost of Ivy League Schools

[zarathustra_slayer]

I know it's a small part of your argument, but it should be noted that many Ivy League schools practice need-blind admissions and give tons of financial aid to those who need it. I certainly couldn't have gone to the Ivy League school that I did without aid, considering tuition plus room and board for a year was about equal to (perhaps a bit more than) my family's net income for a year. The school gave enough aid to make it possible for me to go, and I don't even carry a large loan burden.

You got that right. Inhale deeply!

[Bozdune]

Bingo. I'm an MIT graduate, but the two worst hires I ever made sported MIT degrees (OK, there was one CMU guy who maybe would get a top spot, too).

The best hire was a guy from Southeast Indiana State, or something like that, I can't remember, who not only worked his way through school (nearly full time) at a career-relevant job, but had a fine record of solid accomplishment afterwards.

So I learned that lesson a long time ago. Slugs graduate from "name" schools as well as unknowns. If you can somehow wangle your way into a name school, you can usually find a way to get out with a degree, as long as you're prepared to do all the homework, go to all the tutoring sessions, suck up to the TA's, and get your "gentleman's C" as a reward for all the obvious effort you put in.

Why would anyone pay for a fake degree?

[Lonewolf666]

If you are willing to cheat and have some skills with Photoshop, why not make up your own degree?
Even if you have to buy a decent printer for generating the diploma first, it should be cheaper than those would-be universities ;-)

I'm not sure why anyone...

[Anonymous Coward]

how they were passing themselves off as a school with grammatical errors all over their homepage:

"TSU gives qualifying adults the opportunity to convert what is learned in life [into] a college degree..."

"You may have qualifications now to earn a bachelor[']s or master[']s degree..."

"Perspective students submit a detailed self-evalution for the degree of their choice..." ummm...evalution???

Sorry, I'm currently procrastinating from studying for my English final tomorrow, had to point that out...

Where to start.

[The Cisco Kid]

1. That they may or may not have been spamming has nothing to do with this story - they are being sued for *FRAUD* (possibly for issuing degrees to cats, and/or for using deceptive subjects in their emails) If they had used accurate email subjects, and had been careful to verify the information on who they were granting degrees to, the PA DA wouldnt have so much as blinked. Not that it isnt a good thing that frauds are taken to point, but it would be nice to see some DA's actually do it over just the spamming part - that they are sending emails (regardless of their content, or wether it was fraudulent) to people that DID NOT ask for them, and DID NOT want them.

2. As much as I despise the entire concept of degrees (legitimate or otherwise), if they are guilt of fraud, then the person that sent them a resume listing false information about their cat is guilty as well. I would assume (and hope) that somewhere in the process of submitting a resume they included something about "you affirm that the information you submit in your resume is truthful"

Re:Where to start.

[mstefan]

...if they are guilt of fraud, then the person that sent them a resume listing false information about their cat is guilty as well.

Not if it was law enforcement. The law allows for police to use deception in order to catch criminals, hence no fraud on their part.

Google cache: embarrassing, or what?

[Bozdune]

Most of the resume pages have been pulled, but too bad there's a Google cache, eh? What fun, this is worth a thousand laughs. One guy puts a certificate from Evelyn Wood Speed Reading beside his "PhD" from Trinity Southern University. He also lists a certificate from a tractor trailer training school.

Throw everything against the wall, I guess. You never know what might stick.

Advantage: Cats

[Schwartzboy]

I can't remember where I read this, but part my brain wants to say that it was here on Slashdot:

Cats are smarter than dogs. You can't get a team of cats to pull a sled through the snow.

When I first read that, I thought to myself "Wait, but wouldn't that mean that cats are dumber, because they...oh, yeah." I'd say that pretty much sums it up.
Disclaimer: I have owned both cats and dogs in my life, and have been very fond of all of them.

Online courses VS online degrees

[phorm]

Online courses are quite legal in most instances: you still have to do all the work, get graded, etc - but the institutation saves the cost of having a classroom, and you don't have to pay the site fees or hunt for parking spaces every morning.

I'm currently work at a Canadian distance-ed school which offers high-school level courses and some upgrading. Perfectly legit, in fact they're part of the local school district, but it allows those who live far out of town or who have problems with regular class environments to work from home via the internet. We're not offering MBA's, but I'd imagine the process would be similar.

Of course, we also don't advertise via spam/email. Word-of-mouth, our website, and paper/search-engine advertising are enough. No legitimate institution should be mailing out these "invitations," since even if their courses/degrees are legit, spamming isn't.

Diploma mills

[mabu]

In a related story, that guy that's all over television and radio commercials hawking the Cortislim crap, "Dr. Greg Cynaumon" has equally dubious educational credentials. Seems his claim to being a "doctor" and much of his claims are being challenged.

What amazes me is this guy is on television every day, and the media has never thought to investigate him? I guess they don't want to bite the hand that feeds them. But you have to wonder about a commercial promoting a weight loss product that urges you to not weigh yourself.

The cat is fucking smart

[Spuffin]

Obligatory PA

Re:The cat is fucking smart

[mrchaotica]

The cat is fucking Smart?! That's just sick!

Readable version

[Anonymous Coward]

http://shit.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/08/0 337235

About Time

[Bourbonium]

This reminded me of a fascinating article I read this week in the new issue of Reason Magazine (not yet online at http://www.reason.com/about how the Deputy CIO of the Office of Homeland Security (and former CIO of the Labor Department, who once worked in the Clinton Whitehouse) has been found to have purchased not only a Ph.D., but also her Masters Degree from a diploma factory located in an old Motel 6 in Wyoming. It turns out that this case provoked an audit of resumes by the GAO which discovered the Department of Defense has as many as 257 employees who bought their degrees from the same kind of "schools."

Now, don't you feel safer?

New internet meme possiblities....

[Sean Johnson]

This is gonna be great! Many possiblities are forthcoming regarding the PHD status of a common household feline.
I can't think of any right now, but I'm sure there are possibilities there......right?

Cat-MBA story (NPR)

[halter-da-man]

NPR carried this story on yesterday's Morning Edition http://www.npr.org/rundowns/rundown.php?prgDate=07 -Dec-2004&prgId=3 About half way down the page. Let's please try to not slashdot NPR...

Gee, now I"m "another reader"

[Chatmag]

Cat awarded MBA by fake University spammers. Tuesday December 07, @06:54PM Accepted

The CNN story I had linked has the following: "accused of misappropriating Internet addresses of the state Senate and more than 60 Pennsylvania businesses to sell fake degrees and prescription drugs by spam e-mail"

And: "Prosecutors said more than 18,000 illegal e-mails were sent out this year with links to Trinity Southern's Web address, including 300 that appeared to originate from the Internet servers of Pennsylvania companies and institutions."

The Pennsylvania companies and institutions are also victims.

...means nothing...

[Hobadee]

So what if the university gave a cat an MBA. I can give anyone on Slashdot an MBA also! All that matters is if it's accredited or not.

(I'm also giving away Ph.D's, just give me $20,000 to cover the cost of "tuition" and I'll send you a diploma! (Non-accredited of course!))

Wait a second....

[Israfels]

Ok, I think we're all overlooking a few major points..

In order for this cat to have gotten a degree he would:

First, have an email address to recieve the spam.
Second, he would then have to read the spam.
Third, he would have to apply.
Fourth, using a credit card, pay for the service.

I for one feel that this cat deserves a degree. Hell, unless you count cat years, this cat is well beyond any human child his own age.

Thunder...THUNDER....THUNDERCATS... HOOOOOOOOOOOO!