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Memory-Tech, Toshiba Develop DVD/HD-DVD Discs
Kralizec writes "PC World reports that Memory-Tech has developed a dual DVD, HD-DVD disc, which stores DVD content on the upper layer and HD-DVD content on the lower. The DVD data can be read by standard DVD players, giving customers the incentive to buy now, and reap future benefits by buying an HD-DVD player at a later time. Blu-ray suffered a heavy blow when HD-DVD gained the support of four major movie studios; could this be the knockout punch?" (The format was developed jointly with Toshiba.)
That this will not be a KO. It will, in fact, be a disqualification on the part of the HD-DVD for ear biting.
The article says "The discs will help popularize the HD-DVD format for consumers and encourage them to purchase HD-DVD players..."
I hope this is referring to the read-only HD-DVDs, not these dual DVD, HD-DVD disc.
If consumers are given choice to buy new movies in HD-/DVD format, it'll only delay the need to purchase HD-DVD players, since it's obvious even to grandmas that all hardware price will drop so much in the first 6-12 months that if you can wait you will.
I start buying DDR memory because my new mainboard only accepts 200pin, and my old one is using 168pin. Same thing goes to my Socket A and Socket 939 CPUs.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
Really damn smart. But I predict that "compatibility with existing DVD players" will be a relative thing. For no particular reason, I picked up one of those ultra-cheap US$35 DVD players, which not only chokes on home burnt DVD+ and -Rs, but also on a minority of purchased movies.
The knockout punch? No, this is the bunch that turns the 'argument' into a 'fight'. The media format wars are only beginning!
Electrons are free; it is moving them that becomes expensive.
Guess I gotta go buy that White Album again now.
Donkey Punch?
The fabled D^5V^2H technology.
Its a cut-throat business, trying to make develop a de-facto standard. A business where the best codec or standard isn't necessarily the one adopted by consumers/corporations.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
The adoption rate is definitely going to suffer as people choke on the prices of all this HD stuff. The problem is they do not hold their value - I have seen the same HDTV's I saw on the shelves last year at BB going for less than 25% of their price used on EBay.
M
Wake me up when they come out with GNU/DVD-HD/CDRW-VCR/DVD-TIVO.PVR/+RW/HDTV.
Until then, I will use less caps.
Note that the recently announced support by Universal Studios & others is non-exclusive, so they could still release Blu-Ray titles. This fact is usually omitted from the press. The speculation is that by announcing they got a break on the format royalties.
So I have some more links for y'all.
Technology News' Report and PCWorld's Article on the new disc that will contain a backwards-compatible (4.6 GB) DVD layer and a higher definition (15 GB) HD-DVD layer of which production is planned to begin in October or November of next year.
This seems like this could be a major factor in the format war between HD-DVD and the higher capacity Blu-ray.
It's starting to look like there will be a pretty good format war between the two new HD optical disks in the near future. Both sides are doing an excellent job in aligning themselves with key players that will help them to get their format accepted by the public, and various people on Slashdot have mentioned the benefits of both media.
I have a pretty good hunch that we'll be seeing many drives and players that are dual format (like DVD +/ - R is now). If this does happen, it won't be so bad if there are two dominant media types, and I am sure the competition between the formats can be good for consumers. We shall see!
Once this hybrid HD-DVD becomes popular, the Chinese will mass produce it and drive the price to $1.00. The Chinese will outright steal the technology and will not pay royalties to Toshiba.
Worse, the Chinese will then apply for a patent, in China (which includes Taiwan province and Hong Kong), on the very same technology. Of course, Beijing will award the patent to some dastardly Chinese company. So, if Toshiba sells its HD-DVD in China, Toshiba will be forced to pay royalties to a Chinese company for technology that was developed by Toshiba engineers.
Such behavior goes beyond disgusting.
- HD-DVD is technologically inferior to Blu-Ray.
- Blu-Ray is backed by Sony
I think we can see why HD-DVD would win this format war, judging by the past history of how other wars have played out.Two Roommates and a Boyfriend, updates Monday, Wednesday, and Friday
Can't I just punch a hole in the corner of a regular DVD and turn it over?
rather, blu-ray discs, heh.
Well if you don't I'm sure no one else does either.
An attempt to smoothly transition customers from old to new products without too much hastle is a good sign.
Add the fact that they aren't trying to rip you off by requiring you to re-purchase everything you already own (they're actually doing the opposite) and it seems like they might be trying to please their customers!
Don't look now, but a media company might DO THE RIGHT THING.
If they continue to act appropriately like this (pleasing customers rather than bullying) I will make a note to reward them with a few purchases.
Slashdot Syndrome: the sudden, extreme urge to correct someone in order to validate one's self.
I for one welcome our new dual DVD, HD-DVD overlords...
But seriously, this is a great move. Not because it technologicaly better, but simply because people will buy these disks, perhaps not even knowing they are HD-DVD compatible. Some time later, when shopping for a new DVD player, when the salesman says "and if you have any DVD-HD-DVD disks, you will get better quality from your existing disks!" thus sealing the deal for lots of people...
-- Senior Software Engineer, Attorney appearance services, locallawyerapp.com.
Looking at the hardware that's coming, I'd say I'm more inclined toward HD-DVD over Blu-ray, just for the fact that the Blu-ray hardware costs three times as much as the HD-DVD hardware. If I start seeing my movies in the store with DVD/HD-DVD logos, I'm buying those.
This seems to be an innovative idea, but I doubt that is going to kill Blu-Ray. Everyone is assuming that we have to have another VHS/Betamax style format war, and that's just not the case here. Why can't studios just produce double-sided discs? One side could be a DVD/HD-DVD dual layer hybrid, and the other side could be the same content in Blu-Ray. Just turn the disc over to support your player.
Of course, this would benefit the consumer and we just can't have that, now can we?
If the DVD/HD-DVD hybrid disc is the same or very close to the DVD-only disc price, people will buy the HD version on the off-chance it will be useful to them in the future. But if it costs significantly more, it'll get completely ignored.
This could be a chance for Toshiba & partners to lock in a good chunk of the market before the market even exists - but they'll never give up their precious new-product premiums. No way will they let their fancy new HD content go for the same price as existing SD content (especially as the hybrid disc will no doubt cost a little more to manufacture).
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
I thought the reason HD-DVD gave for choosing its lower capacity over the Blu-Ray was that the Discs could be manufactured on existing DVD machines.
This seems to change that cheap manufacturing equation.
A 4.6 GB DVD layer And a 15 GB HD-DVD Layer
15 GB not even twice a 9 GB standard double layer disk. The few movies released in HD on DVD compressed and using VC9 are not full HD resolution. You think and extra 6 GB is going to get you there all the way???
Blu-Ray starts out with 25 GB single layer and 50 GB for double.
Even with the Mpeg 4 encoding, the makers will be struggling to get true full HD on the disks for 2 hour plus movies and forget the bonus features.
HD-DVD used to have 2/3 the storage of Blu-Ray, now it will have 1/3 (1/12 if Blu-Ray delivers on 8 layer media)
Might as well just release HD on multiple regular double layer DVD and have a tray switch disks when last disk is done.
What seems like an advance is really just going to make certain the majority of HD-DVD content will be over compressed and crappy compared to Blu-Ray. Plus it is unclear the HD layer will not be overly affected by interference from the regular DVD layer (I am assuming larger standard DVD pits might create more optical interference for the lower layer than if an HD-DVD layer were above), thus more prone to failure and damage.
The sad thing is I can't deny the marketing genius of it.
Letter To Iran
Most DVDs use the dual layer capacity of current DVDs. Using this technique it would be nessesary to split many movies onto two discs. If your going to do that, why not just package one DVD and one HD-DVD.
In America we are imprisoned by our fear of them.
If they advertise that hey this costs a few bucks more but you can buy this now and play it on your DVD player and play it in the net generation players without having to repurchase everythings.
Then they could really be on to something.
At least for a while, all of my DVD players at home and on my computers will be high def. I'll probably first have one optimal system with an HD projector with a high-def player hooked up by HDMI on my living room, but still another TV with a regular DVD player in the bedroom, plus my laptop, in-car player, my desktop computer, etc will all have regular DVD. So I will need hybrid discs to be able to watch them not only in the living room.
so now the consumer has to pay royalties to both format licensors!
brilliant!
If Memory-Tech and Toshiba have a working dual-layer DVD/HD-DVD disk, doesn't this mean it will also soon be possible to put HD-DVD on both layers? That would be 30 GB for dual-layer HD-DVD.
Blu-Ray starts out with 25 GB single layer and 50 GB for double...
HD-DVD used to have 2/3 the storage of Blu-Ray, now it will have 1/3 (1/12 if Blu-Ray delivers on 8 layer media)
Why are you comparing single-layer HD-DVD to dual-layer Blu-Ray? Dual-layer HD-DVD (30 GB) is 3/5 the storage of dual-layer Blu-Ray (50 GB). Is inexpensive dual-layer blue laser media even going to be available to movie studios next year?
I understand that Blu-Ray is capable of even more storage in the future (thinner layers), but isn't 30 GB enough for Hollywood movies in hi-def? I want a Blu-Ray burner for my next PC, but I don't care the movie studios use HD-DVD if 30 GB is enough.
TO START
PRESS ANY KEY
Where's the 'ANY' key? I see Esk, Kitarl, and Pig-Up...
Hi Def movies are huge. Even with 30gb available space there is going to be much compression involved.
That means Blu-Ray movies are going to look 5/3rds better than the same movie on a HD-DVD.
Not that, you know, image quality == win; or anything.
So how do i do backups again?
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Except the Playstation 3 will run Blu-ray discs. So the people that are planning to get a PS3 already might take this into consideration. I know I will. The PS3 will surely be sub $500 in price.
It could be twice the price, say maybe 10cents per unit, retail $20.
hell they only loose a coupld of cents.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
I dont know anybody who owns a HD TV, and I cant even get the best out of my current dvds (no progressive scan). Why on earth would I want a new format when I cant even max out the current one...just so companies can sell me the same movies I own now slight increase in resoultion....Dvds look pretty good why do we need to upgrade?
Anyone who thinks this is a good idea is on CRACK...unless you stand to profit from the sale of HD-DVD's
Ok, a little background. DVD's, when they first started, were primarily 1 layer, not two, per disc. To start they didn't use two layers but it was part of the spec that they eventually could. Now, transfer technology back then wasnt as refined as it is today, so one of the reasons rereleased discs look better is due to the better restoration techniques and transfering technology
HOWEVER, the other HUGE reason is the addition of the second layer. By doubling the space available, you get soooo much more space and higher bit rates ensue, thus you get far better picture with less compression.
What Toshiba is saying is "lets get rid of that second layer, and provide you with whole movie on only one layer again!" Indeed transfer tech has improved, but not THAT much. The video will be so much more compressed and less detailed than if they had just put out the DVD as a dual layered disc. I see only two reasons to even pursue this.
The first is that it will SOUND better to the stupidity of the average consumer, who would rather have the convience, even though they are buying an inferior DVD (and as I will mention, and inferior HD-DVD). This isn't a big issue for one reason. That is, if you are buying this disc, you might reason that youll have a lesser copy now, but when HDDVD comes out, you'll never watch that DVD copy again, so if you put up with it till then, you'll have a nice HDDVD copy to watch.
Problem is, your HD copy is going to look like crap compared to one which was dual layered, 30GB of space for the movie. Infact, given sony has 50, 100 and soon 200 GB discs, the HD-DVD disc cant compare compression-wise. No matter what, a normal HD-DVD will be more compressed than a Blu-ray, but this still begs the question of whether or not the 30gb will be sufficient that there will be little difference from a 50gb copy, to your eye anyways.
Doing some quick math
Animorphic DVD: 720x480 resolution = 345,600 pixels per image
HDDVD at 1080p (why p later and not i) = 20,736,00
thats a difference per image of 6 times (exactly) as much information
So, assuming that you want your HD-DVD copy to have just about the same compression as your DVD copy had (why would you want more?) then a dual layerd, 9.2gb dvd would need 55.2 GB to store this
However, MPEG-4 is far more efficient than the MPEG-2 compression used in DVD's today, and would easily break under 50GB to store that, and possibly even 30. However, it is not good enough to create a HD-DVD copy of the same movie, with the same amount of clarity and compression, in 15GB of space.
Here is my take:
Toshiba knows this marketing might work, and the HD-DVD layer will look OK at first, worth noting that the original DVDs looked good for their day too. But when people have adopted the player, guess what? The Dual layered, HD ONLY discs will destroy the hybrids ones, and that collection of dvd/hddvd you bought is now obsolete. That's right, they do it with full knowledge that they are selling you inferiority to get you to double dip, as they do often today with DVDs
to comment on why hddvd is 1080p, where as HDTV is only 1080i: Its pretty obvious that the plan with HDTV from the start was to sell the 1080i to the rich, and then to the consumer, and then put out 1080p which wouldnt work for broadcast, just as 480p doesnt today, unless they update the spec, but it would look damn good for hddvds. DVD is stored in progressive, there is no reason not to store HDDVD progressive. Just as between 480p tvs and hdtv, they sold edtv with 720i and etc, to the rich, only to get them to buy the newer ones, they are milking HDTV
Anyways, my take is that toshiba is going to try to screw the consumer, but unless this is patented and somehow Sony can't do the same idea, I think this would be GREAT for Blu-ray. If sony can take the 4 layer discs they got, place 2 layer
Things like this give HD-DVD an even bigger advantage. What's the initial advantage? Naming.
Consumers absolutely know what a DVD is. They understand what HD is (although some may not be aware that the DVD format isn't already HD). Thus, it's a simple leap to comprehend HD-DVD - it's a DVD that shows prettier pictures. Consumers have no clue what a BluRay is, though marketing dollars will try to change that.
Seen any BadMarketing lately?
Why settle for what's *only* barely "good enough" for our current needs when we could pick a format that has real room for growth and can accomodate our needs today and tomorrow?
Blu Ray holds more data, layer for layer, than HD-DVD and therefore can hold more data at equivilent compression levels, or, more beneficially, *better* data at lower compression levels.
Why settle for a lesser amount of storage? Blu Ray makes more sense for data storage as well. Even 50GB per disc is weak compared to tape, but it's still a meaningful amount of storage. HD-DVD is 15GB now and 30 GB later, and 15GB isn't enough to stop using DVD-R and adopt a new technology -- but Blu Ray's 25 would be now, and growth to 50 and above would make it relevant for some time to come.
What I find odd about HD-DVD fans is that while they ignore the lower storage capacities, they love to focus on codecs. It's possible to run you favorite codec on any storage media, why settle for a crappier medium to do it?
IIRC Blue Ray requires the use of a caddy, it's part of the spec.......... so point number 2 shouldn't mean shit.
I certainly hate this fact and I'll avoid at _ALL_ costs having to buy blue ray if it truely is a forced caddy based system
big, fat UGH.
Yes, dual-layer HD DVD exists, but it will not play in a normal DVD player. The whole point of the article is discs that will play in normal DVD players and also have HD quality when played in HD DVD players.
The caddies have been eliminated.
Are you comparing HD DVD players against Blu-ray recorders by any chance? Hardly fair. And it's all vaporware anyway, so prices could change.
Can't anyone see this is a half-assed idea to screw up an already inferior format.
At some level, I understand the need to bridge technologies, but we can't hold on to one technology forever. I don't want to be stuck with a legacy format.
'Tis far better to suffer a hard switch than end up with a half-assed format for the next 5-10 years
Look at the facts, although HD-DVD is easier and albeit probably cheaper to produce, it is inferior to Blueray in capacity.
It's a shame that it has such large backers.
This is really dangerous. I'll buy a HD / DVD and convince myself that I don't need a brand-spanking new player, but EVERY time I watch that DVD there will be a little bit of me that knows that I could be watching the better quality content. As my collection grows the little bites will become larger and larger until eventually I'm writing a cheque for a new player, new 7.1 surround sound and my own cinema.
Its happened before. When I bought an Mac, I found myself desperate to find out how well it worked with an iPod. Buying a new wide screen TV with RGB Scart because my new DVD player supported it and I wanted to see what the differnce was.
I don't think I'm alone. Sure I might not be the first in the store getting bragging rights, but I won't be far behind and all because I need get my moneys worth. (Just wait till the music industry catches on to this)
I knew it was only a matter of time before we gave Lucas a reason to produce 'Star Wars: Re-Re-Released, now in HD!'
And yet the prospect of another extended LoTR release doesn't bother me. Not one bit.
Marques Johansson
didn't work with all disks. Some electrical tape could also help you write something then kill writability on that particular side which I found very handy. See back in those days you'd run into software that was ultra-corruptable. A lot of software had instructions on how to back it up onto another disk and told you to use the backup. I'd like to see that on a CD/DVD sometimes soon.
Personally, I'd also like to see optical media that I can write/erase/read easily, like a new MO. MO was a fucking market failure because of the people who put it out, but it was superior to CD. Had it been done right, I doubt we would be dealing with the inflexible optical media formats we have now.
But come on. I'm sure we've all backed up DVD's to DVD-R for "whatever" reason, so I'm sure most of us know, you either have to break it onto multiple discs, or compress it somehow (with a program like DVD shrink generally)and that's usually AFTER you strip out the extraneous audio channels and such. Why would you WANT a movie that has been squeezed into 4.7gb, or for that matter an HD movie sized down to 15gb when the blu-ray can hold 50? Go Sony Go!
First, one layer is 4.6GB for normal DVD? I don't know how many people are familiar with most DVDs today, but they are all almost 7GB in content, movies, ads and extras. Only no feature, short, and/or poorly encoded films/discs are usually below this 4.6GB limit. And only a SINGLE 15GB layers for HD?. Err, we're trying to encode 4-8 times the information for a good HD disc, and 15GB ain't gonna do it for even MPEG-4.
Second... Blu-ray players are backwards compatible (or are supposed to be), you will not "Lose" any of your current DVDs to use the new player (though I can tell you, there hasn't been a single DVD made, yet, I have seen that looks good on a good HDTV...). If you plan to get an HD player, why not get the best, and buy the movies you want in the new format? You'll have to buy one of the HD formats anyway, when the new players come out... again, why not get the best?
This HD-war can actually only burn those people who are true video fans (not the idiots, who seemed to have destroyed the Beta format, and Amiga computers). I never bought pre-recorded analog media (read as "tape") before (I was an original supporter of Laserdiscs, and currently own more than 4000 of them, many still better than their DVD counterparts).
I own over 1500 DVDs, and that number will only get larger, and when Blu-ray comes out, I'll support that, if it's not too anti-consumer (I laughed when DivX came out, and laughed even harder when it died, and I jeer the nazi's of the RIAA).
I don't suffer because DVD killed the laserdisc, because one of my players is a CD/LD/DVD/SACD I get the best of ALL worlds.
May HD-DVD die like the stupid moronic thing it is -- it serves the current consumer market in no fashion. If you think this HD-DVD will be cheaper and better, you're wrong. It might be cheaper, but the quality will SUCK.