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Huge Parachute Saves Crashing Planes

theodp writes "When his small plane banked uncontrollably and began spiraling toward earth, Canadian rancher Albert Kolk and his three passengers were saved by a single parachute. Big-as-a-house parachutes made by Ballistic Recovery Systems are stored behind the rear seats in small planes and fired with a rocket through the rear windshield; they're attached with high-strength lines to the plane's wings, nose and tail. Deployment videos here."

280 comments

  1. Loony Tunes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Hopefully no one packs a pack of pots and pans, or even worse, an anvil!

    1. Re:Loony Tunes? by UniverseIsADoughnut · · Score: 1

      But thats the fun of shopping the ACME catalog. Sure you might die, but at least can get a good laugh out of your death.

      Besides, you will just create a hole in the earth in the shape of the plane and you can climb back out. (while the parachute system ends up deploying after the crash, as happened in the article).

  2. They forgot... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...to install one of them parachutes on the server..

    1. Re:They forgot... by AndroidCat · · Score: 4, Funny

      They did have one. But it deployed in the small closed server room. They're not sure where the rocket went and they're still trying to find the operator.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  3. Counterpoint. by FireballX301 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Look at Genesis. Parachute failed to deploy, and the thing smashed into the ground. And that was a relatively small capsule. Also, think of the parachutes needed to save even slightly larger aircraft. If a parachute of that size was needed for small private aircraft, there probably is no practical way to use them on large commercial liners.

    I don't see this being more practical in small planes than simply having individual passenger parachutes in small planes, and letting them bail.

    1. Re:Counterpoint. by wtansill · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I don't see this being more practical in small planes than simply having individual passenger parachutes in small planes, and letting them bail.
      It may not make much difference to the passengers, but think about having the plane touch down (sort of) gracefully rather than, say, crashing into the middle of a housing development. Not to mention the fact that your insurance company will be far happier to repair a lightly damaged aircraft rather than shelling out for a replacement of the bits and pieces left behind in a smoking crater...
      --
      The contest for ages has been to rescue liberty from the grasp of executive power. -- Daniel Webster
    2. Re:Counterpoint. by Fnkmaster · · Score: 4, Insightful


      I don't see this being more practical in small planes than simply having individual passenger parachutes in small planes, and letting them bail.


      The thing is that only works if you are at high enough altitude that you have time to put on the parachutes, get the door open, jump out, and have the parachute deploy.

      This is much faster - you just pull a lever and it deploys, and thus is much more likely to help out in the more common real world scenarios where something goes wrong shortly after takeoff or before landing (obviously, you have to be high enough for this parachute to deploy, and it's hard to look up the stats right now as their server is toast).

    3. Re:Counterpoint. by LennyDotCom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you had ever been skydiving you would know it takes a bit of training to learn how to jump and control the parachute I doubt your going to train every passenger before flight

      --
      http://Lenny.com
    4. Re:Counterpoint. by blike · · Score: 1

      Parachute failed to deploy, and the thing smashed into the ground.

      Any plane that has to use a parachute is going to smash into the ground anyways. At least there is hope with a parachute.

    5. Re:Counterpoint. by barc0001 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, but that was due in part to sensors not triggering properly. If *your* sensors are on the blink (your eyes), what the hell are you doing flying a plane to begin with?

      It's true these will not work for larger aircraft, but some have had the idea of breaking the larger airframes into a series of seating modules, and if disaster hits, the modules get closed with bulkhead doors and then each module gets ejected from the plane with 20-30 passengers and a big honking chute. Rather like the ejection system on some military craft that ejects the whole cockpit instead of just the guy.
      The downside of this is obviously this won't work for existing craft. The planes would have to be built entirely differently to accomodate such a feature, and that would cost lots of coin, so of course it won't happen.

    6. Re:Counterpoint. by LordEd · · Score: 1

      Quick test: Your plane is about to crash. You have 1 minute to escape.

      Can you:
      1. Find your parachute
      2. Properly put it on
      3. Open the door
      4. Jump in such a way that you don't hit the plane (wing, engine, etc)
      5. Pull the cord

      Lets say you've never worn a parachute. How much time will you freeze for?

      If you have a parachute on the plane itself, there is now only 1 person who is responsible for saving everyone's lives, and that person (being the pilot) would likely have much more training than Joe passenger out for a ride.

    7. Re:Counterpoint. by Doctor+Crumb · · Score: 1

      Genesis was coming back from *space*. airplanes are moving at considerably lower velocities, and are flying at considerably lower altitudes.

    8. Re:Counterpoint. by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 1

      Plus, even if the pilot has an incident, a big red lever marked "Safety chute" will probably guide the other passengers to the best decision.

      --
      liqbase :: faster than paper
    9. Re:Counterpoint. by Salgak1 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Let's expand on that idea a little.

      Modularize passenger/luggage compartments: when a module is filled, the next module is loaded. Say, 2 first class rows, 3 business rows, a small kitchen module, a 6-7 rows of cattle class, with bathrooms fore and aft.

      Zero hijack potential(after all, the cockpit is TOTALLY inaccessible...). Efficiencies of loading and unloading, INCLUDING luggage (Your luggage is with you in your module...). Safety in case of airborne accident

      Yes, we'd have to build a whole new class of jetliners, and this would only be efficient for trans-continental and oceanic runs, but this idea has promise. . .

    10. Re:Counterpoint. by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      The first thing to teach them is to never jump out of a good airplane.

      --
      What?
    11. Re:Counterpoint. by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      I don't see this being more practical in small planes than simply having individual passenger parachutes in small planes, and letting them bail.

      Chute deployment: perhaps 20-30 seconds.
      Passengers (and pilot) putting on parachute (while strapped into their seat in a spiraling plane) then bailing out under uncontrolled conditions and not getting hit by plane parts, and then .....
      splat.

      Then of course, there's the problem of teaching your 5-year old kid how to properly deploy a parachute (not to mention ensuring that you have the right sized parachute for him and that he's in the right seat, and .........

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    12. Re:Counterpoint. by TWX · · Score: 1

      It should also probably be pointed out that Genesis was orbiting the Sun directly for a considerable amount of time, was a "one-off", and didn't have the quality assurance time that a commercial craft capable of carrying hundreds of passengers gets. The FAA is pretty severe about safety before certifying a plane for commercial purposes. While there are plane crashes, there are a very, very small number of incidents compared to normal flights.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    13. Re:Counterpoint. by mumblestheclown · · Score: 4, Informative
      I don't see this being more practical in small planes than simply having individual passenger parachutes in small planes, and letting them bail.

      Alas, you are simply ignorant on this matter.

      I fly and teach in a Cirrus SR22 with a built in ballistic parachute. Frankly, if you look at the cost/benefit of such a system, it's wasted money - for the vast, vast, VAST bulk of SR20/22 pilots, the money would be much better spent on an additional, say, 160 hours of flight training.

      However, there are many many situations where a balistic airplane parachute is a far better choice than an individual parachute.

      One is an uncontrolled spin / structural failure situation. Now, mind you that the parachute is not strictly certified to open in all flight regimes, but, frankly, if your airplane starts breaking apart, you may well not be able to make it the door. This is why fighter pilots in WW2 often died despite wearing parachutes.

      Two is aerodynamic design. The SR22 is very sleek. The way it is designed, it is damn near impossible to open the doors in flight (not that I've tried - I've done this plenty of times with cessnas and so forth), but since the SR22 is designed for speed and (considernig the speed) economy, making jump-outable doors would be neigh-on impossible.

      Aircraft Survivability (at least the chance of) - at least one aircraft where the BRS has been deployed has flown again after not too extensive work. I dont know many bailed out of aircraft that can say the same.

      Environmental survivability. These things are going to be pulled often over mountainous terrain. If you land with the airplane, not only do you have a shelter, but you have the survival junk you store in the back. Same can't be said for bailing out. Oh ya, and you're also close to the aircraft's Emergency Locator Transmitter for emergncy purposes.

    14. Re:Counterpoint. by Tackhead · · Score: 2, Informative
      > The first thing to teach them is to never jump out of a good airplane.

      Skydiver: "There's no such thing as a perfectly good airplane!"

      Pilot: "There's also no such thing as a perfectly good parachute."

      Skydiver: "That's why we carry two of 'em!"

      (Thank you, thank you, tip your server, don't forget to try the veeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallll...)

    15. Re:Counterpoint. by JamieF · · Score: 1

      The extra weight and wasted space would make this very inefficient. You'd have more stuff that would have to work every single time.

      Also, hijackers can threaten passengers instead of just the crew. Making the cockpit inaccessible prevents 9/11 style situations but doesn't prevent old style "take us to ___ or everybody dies" hijackings.

      How would it be safe in case of an airborne accident? What's the risk of an airborne accident anyway? Air travel is so overwhelmingly safe that building giant parachuting passenger escape pods seems like a really expensive solution to a virtually nonexistent problem.

      Keep watching those made for TV movies, though.

    16. Re:Counterpoint. by dougmc · · Score: 1
      This is much faster - you just pull a lever and it deploys, and thus is much more likely to help out in the more common real world scenarios where something goes wrong shortly after takeoff or before landing
      ... and, as you know, most accidents do happen right around takeoffs and landings.

      Added benefit -- it saves the plane. I imagine that the plane is damaged somewhat after a parachute deployment, but it's far better than having it crash. And it's safer for people on the ground ...

    17. Re:Counterpoint. by tomjen · · Score: 1

      so at both a large and several small parachutes. if the large fails and one person saves himself, then there is on less person dead.

      with the cost of wrongfull death(as if there is some right deads) lawsuits this properly even pays of.

      --
      Freedom or George Bush
    18. Re:Counterpoint. by barc0001 · · Score: 1

      Also, hijackers can threaten passengers instead of just the crew. Making the cockpit inaccessible prevents 9/11 style situations but doesn't prevent old style "take us to ___ or everybody dies" hijackings.

      Actually, with that system in place, those would be eliminated or severly curtailed in their effectiveness as well. Try this one on for size: A hijack is announced with 5 hijackers, who claim they have a bomb. The pilot hits stage 1, which brings all the bulkhead doors down and seals the plane into 12 sections. He then comes on the PA and tells the hijackers to surrender their bomb and sit down and shut up or he'll eject all the modules. Worst case scenario is that one of the modules is breached by the bomb, while the other 11 are fine. Considering that the modules would be built for high-speed ejection over an ocean, it's not even certain that a smuggleable bomb would be sufficient to destroy the module it is located in, let alone any of the adjoining modules.
      Or even better, it's decided that NTSB rules stipulate that in the event of a hijack, the pilot has no choice but to eject all modules immediately. Make it a big news story so that everyone knows that if that crap is even tried, all the modules just go away the second the pilot knows about it. There goes any and all motivation to hijack the planes since they won't get what they want.
      If they're just after hostages for a cause, there's lots of places to find those that don't involve planes.

      Keep watching those made for TV movies, though.

      What movies? Like the show I saw on Discovery last year about Flight 261? I bet those people would have loved the modular idea. Certainly much better than spiraling to their deaths in an out of control aircraft at 400 mph.

    19. Re:Counterpoint. by PhotoGuy · · Score: 1
      It may not make much difference to the passengers, but think about having the plane touch down (sort of) gracefully rather than, say, crashing into the middle of a housing development. Not to mention the fact that your insurance company will be far happier to repair a lightly damaged aircraft rather than shelling out for a replacement of the bits and pieces left behind in a smoking crater...

      From what I understand, and have seen, most of north america is pretty sparsely populated. Ever fly across the US during the day? Lotsa farmland, mountains, a few populated areas. The odds of a plane crashing into a populated area, is fairly small. I somewhat suspect this is not a *huge* factor in the actuarial calculations of plane insurance. But would welcome enlightenment (or knee jerk misinformation, this being /.).

      -d

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    20. Re:Counterpoint. by fataugie · · Score: 1
      Lightly damaged? Have you ever seen one of these tin cans up close? One person can move the plane without much effort. There's not a whole lot there, so a minimal impact will F*** things up.

      Not to mention, I'm willing to bet body parts that after a "lightly damaging crash" the insurance company (and any sane pilot" would want a complete teardown and inspection before declaring it airworthy again.

      I bet the price between a major crash and a complete teardown inspection/rebuild will be closer than you'd think.

      --

      WTF? Over?

    21. Re:Counterpoint. by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      "I don't see this being more practical in small planes than simply having individual passenger parachutes in small planes, and letting them bail."
      Don't know much about small planes or parachutes do you?
      1. It tends to take some training to learn how to use a parachute. I do not think many four year olds would figure it out in an emergency. I guess you could leave the kids behind.
      2. Everybody would have to wear the chute all the time and that would be uncomfortable.
      3. Many four seat planes have only one door and I have never seen one with four doors so every one would have to try and squeeze out of the door wearing a chute. I suggest trying to get of the backseat of a two door car while wearing a back pack to see how well this would work.

      The one thing that you said that makes any sense is that they are not practical on large airliners. If you look at airline crashes almost none of them happen in conditions that this chute would have helped. Not to mention that it would just be too large.
      BTW these chutes have been used for years on ultralights and homebuilt. They do save lives in some incidents.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    22. Re:Counterpoint. by fataugie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, except if the freakin plane is falling out of the sky, I'd be willing to take my chances with the parachute. I may not make a Golden Knights worthy landing, but at least I'd have a chance.

      --

      WTF? Over?

    23. Re:Counterpoint. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what else is on the world besides the US?

      Iraq and Afghanistan are both deserts. Well, that's about it, isn't it?

    24. Re:Counterpoint. by m_xiphias · · Score: 1

      FCC regulation being what it is, I don't think they'd let a plane that has suffered a 'light damage' crash fly again. Not without the complete teardown you mentioned, but expect to pay for everything (including the frame) getting replaced anyways. Probably is cheaper to just buy a new plane.

    25. Re:Counterpoint. by RPI+Geek · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't see this being more practical in small planes than simply having individual passenger parachutes in small planes, and letting them bail.

      I personally knew the man who died in the Oct 29 plane crash in Rhode Island. That article is a bit inaccurate, but all the news reports were in regards to the crash. He had built the plane (Adventure Air Amphibious 6-seater) in his garage over the course of almost 15 years and it had only been in the air for about a month when it went down. During that entire time he studied to get his private pilot's certificate and all the relevant certifications to properly fly his plane. He was a very good pilot by all the accounts that I had heard (my father - he's also a pilot, and other friends of his).

      Anyways, the plane went down about 2.5 miles off the end of the runway, which is about a minute of flying, and by my guess (I am a student pilot with 47 flight hours logged), maybe 1000' or 1500' of elevation AGL. I don't yet know what went wrong that day, but I get the impression from the eyewitness report that the plane was intact until it hit. The bigger factor for me is that I saw how much detail he put into the plane... he was a stickler for perfection and he knew his stuff (he studied mechanical engineering before going into law). So this leads me to believe that the plane was OK as far as the airframe. With a huge parachute like that and even just 500' elevation to pull it, he just might have survived the crash.

      The cockpit of that plane and the big harnesses that he had in there would have taken more time to get out than he had. Whole-plane parachutes give pilots more time to react, rather than having to aim the plane away from (as was the case in Paul's crash) a shopping mall, unbuckle yourself, open the canopy (not an option in certain planes where you'd have to push the door against the air resistance), bail, and pull your chute. This is a big problem because most crashes happen in the very first or the very last minutes of flying (when the plane is flying slow and is more susceptible[sp?] to stalling). It can save lives.

      Just my $0.02.

      --

      - "Nobody came out that night, not one was ever seen. But Old Man Stauf is waiting there, crazy sick and mean!"
    26. Re:Counterpoint. by RPI+Geek · · Score: 1
      --

      - "Nobody came out that night, not one was ever seen. But Old Man Stauf is waiting there, crazy sick and mean!"
    27. Re:Counterpoint. by fataugie · · Score: 1

      My thoughts exactly, seeing how we're in the litigious (sp?) society that we are, God forbid something goes wrong with the repaired plane, everyone remotely associated with granting it airworthyness again will get sued.

      --

      WTF? Over?

    28. Re:Counterpoint. by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      I've taken flying lessons and talked with the instructors. Planes are not easy to get anymore, and I've heard of planes that land hard, had wings broken, even landed in lakes being recovered and restored to flying status.

      You figure, people are still taking WWII planes out of junkyards and restoring them.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    29. Re:Counterpoint. by lachlan76 · · Score: 1

      Fairly small if you say that there is a constant chance of the plane crashing over the entire flight.

      In contrast, most accidents happen around takeoff and landing. Which doesn't usually happen in unpopulated areas.

    30. Re:Counterpoint. by lachlan76 · · Score: 1

      Anything light enough to stay in the air is not going to be able to stop a bomb from destroying the module.

      If we had a material like that, would we not put it around the engines and control surfaces already?

    31. Re:Counterpoint. by mduell · · Score: 1

      The insurance company won't care much, except for liability. Once you pop the chute, the FAA will not certify the airframe as airworthy ever again.

    32. Re:Counterpoint. by drawfour · · Score: 1

      People aren't worried about "Take us to cuba" hujackings, they're worried about "We're all going to die" hijackings. Terrorists, not hijackings...

      The point of terrorism is NOT to kill people, but to SCARE people. You kill a few, scare a bunch. With 9/11, how many people died? 4 thousand? How many people were too scared to fly? A few million? 10 million? Wouldn't it still be just as effective to kill a section of the plane (20, 30 people), scare EVERYONE on board, _and_ scare their families, friends, and anyone who heard the news about the most recent bombing?

      Besides, if there were 5 terrorists on board, and if they happened to actually smuggle some explosives on board, each one of them takes a portion of the explosive to a different section. Now you get just under half of the plane. Of course, the terrorists could just detonate without any notice, or could put stuff in the food, or maybe taint the air supply, or any other thing. There are many points of failure in the current system. You may not get the plane to fly into a building, but you can still do lots of damage. Especially if you time it to be during approach somewhere - you might get more casualties and make people even more scared.

    33. Re:Counterpoint. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There was a long thread last year about ejector pods for passenger planes.

    34. Re:Counterpoint. by MADCOWbeserk · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sure they will. The FAA only cares that the plane can pass it's rigorous inspections. Actually the FAA has eased up quite up bit on safety and inpection requirements over the last decade or so. Believe it or not they want private/personal pilots to be able to afford to fly. For instance you can now do major engine and structural work yourself. Unlike commercial aviation where safety at all costs is the rule, private aviation allows for personal responsibility for such matters. Despite being much more dangerous than commercial aviation, private plane crashes are rare. Pilots generally respect nature, thier planes and thier abilities.

      Frankly this is might be a good product but it can in no way make a plane crash proof. Things like major structural failure, crashing in an object (mountain or building), or landing takeoff crashes will render it useless.

    35. Re:Counterpoint. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do you say FCC? Do you mean FAA? If it's a homebuilt my understanding is that the pilot can make a call (provided he was the builder) whether or not the aircraft is airworthy (but you're right about any sane pilot wanting a complete teardown..)

      interesting idea though. seems to work for cirrus. then again, the whole thing is neccesary for compliance as the cirrus planes are not stall certified and stall recovery in the regulatory sense is acheived via these parachutes.

    36. Re:Counterpoint. by Dr.+Cody · · Score: 1

      Two is aerodynamic design. The SR22 is very sleek. The way it is designed, it is damn near impossible to open the doors in flight (not that I've tried - I've done this plenty of times with cessnas and so forth), but since the SR22 is designed for speed and (considernig the speed) economy, making jump-outable doors would be neigh-on impossible.

      A few years ago, I was taking lessons in a Cessna 152. On my third flight, when we were to be doing stalls, the door opened at about 100-200ft and didn't want to shut. The instructor just says, "Yeah, it does that sometimes."

    37. Re:Counterpoint. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NOT true at all, there are cargo containers which are built out of strong, flexible fibers (like Kevlar). These containers are designed to expand to take the energy out of the explosion but not to allow the explosive force or debris into the aircraft itself. The first company to recieve FAA aproval for their contrainers was Telair.

    38. Re:Counterpoint. by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      There is NO FUCKING WAY that I'm dying in a plane crash with a perfectly good parachute on my back. Let me the Fuck Out.

      Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ee eeeeeeeeee

    39. Re:Counterpoint. by Moofie · · Score: 1

      Bailing out of a small aircraft is pretty dangerous. Pulling a handle and letting the BRS save everybody's butt is much safer, and your passengers are all still sitting in a crashworthy structure.

      Are you going to strap a parachute to your four year old kid? BRSes are well engineered, proven safety mechanisms.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    40. Re:Counterpoint. by Ender_Wiggin · · Score: 1

      The Challenger forced NASA to study ejectable compartements. They concluded that it was infeasable, far too expensive, and wouldn't be very effective. Eject hundreds of people? If the plane is going down, how much time would that have? Can you eject during a botched takeoff/landing?

    41. Re:Counterpoint. by Moofie · · Score: 1

      Doing that much engineering to solve a non-problem is just silly.

      You are safer getting on an airplane than going into your bathroom. Just as a wild-ass guess, you'd incur a weight penalty of at least 30-40% in equipment that will, in all likelihood, never be used.

      Have you taken a look at the airline business lately? If you're an airline, or an airline builder, you are scraping the bottom of the barrel for funds to just keep operating, never mind inventing Buck Rogers safety technology that is simply not warranted.

      I'm all for technical advances, particularly those that improve safety. But what you propose is simply unworkable.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    42. Re:Counterpoint. by Moofie · · Score: 1

      You know how much a personal chute weighs? Every pound of parachute (about 20 or 30 pounds) is one pound less of luggage, or fuel.

      Airplanes are light for a reason. Weight costs money. Minimizing it is valuable.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    43. Re:Counterpoint. by Moofie · · Score: 1

      It's a hell of a lot faster than that. The chute is deployed by a rocket, and the airplane is chute-borne in less than five seconds.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    44. Re:Counterpoint. by kentmartin · · Score: 2, Informative

      Credentials: Wildly inexperienced private pilot.

      The thing with light aircraft accidents is that they tend to occur in 3 main different ways.

      The first is inadvertant entry into IMC (Instrument Metoerological Conditions - essentially weather conditions inadequate for flying visually). This is all well and good if the pilot is instrument rated, but, if a non rated tries to keep flying visually, it is likely that they will enter a spiral dive, or, a spin. A BRS (Ballistic recovery system - ie parachute) will be advantageous in these conditions - passenger parachutes will not, you can't get people to jump into that sort of soup, and, you may not even be able to get the plane appropriately oriented for them to do so (in a spin for example, you know exactly what your seatbelts are for - you do a bit of spin recovery in training - a most unpleasant experience). Incidentally, a spin is when one wing stalls (fails to generate lift) and the other wing is still operating normally.

      The other nasty that occurs during accidental entry into IMC, is the innocuously named CFIT (controlled flight into terrain - used in accident reports to categorise the type of accident where the aircraft is operation normally, but, impacts with terrain anywyay - almost always due to pilot error). If a BRS is deployed early enough then it would be advantageous here - once more, passenger parachutes wouldn't be much use.

      Incidentally, the aviation community is a bit split over BRS in the above scenarios, the logic being that pilots may take bigger risks knowing there is a BRS sitting there as a backup. I guess that is inevitable, but, I find it to be much the same logic as "people will drive faster if they have seatbelts".

      The second way they occur is with the pilot (and this is the biggy) failing to maintain sufficient speed on takeoff/landing either due to human error, or some other factor like engine failure after take off (which is another cool acronym we use - EFATO), and stalling and falling. BRS could potentially be useful here, passenger parachutes absolutely useless - you are too low, and there is no time.

      Finally, the third main cause of crashes (and the smallest category) is mechanical failure of the aircraft (usually engine, but I have heard of a wing being torn off in a steep turn (for which the aircraft was not certified), when it (the wing) was covered in snow and ice). BRS could be pretty handy here, but, 99% (made up stat - a very high number anyway) of these types of accidents are non fatal as, as long as you have sufficient height, you can normally glide to a suitable landing site (field, beach, golf course, whatever - interestingly, they teach you to tend to avoid roads, they often have power lines running up the side of them that can't be seen from height). Another acronym here - PFLs - practise forced landings, where the instructor pulls the engine power, and says "OK - emergency, land from here!". Whenever you are flying, you are constantly planning for engine failure *right now*, and scanning the ground for suitable landing sites within gliding range. BRS would be pretty damn handy in these cases, especially when flying over inhospitable terrain like mountains or water.

      My feeling is that BRS is a good thing, and I hope to see it being put on more and more aircraft, but, it is only an option of last resort, and should be treated as such. IMC should never be entered by non IMC pilots, spins and spiral dives are recoverable, given sufficient height, and engine failure will normally just result in a forced landing in a field. Nothing can contribute to the safety of a flight more than a cautious, sensible pilot who flys within his/her limits.

      The other thing to remember with passenger parachutes, is, a certain amount of skill is required for their use, with BRS, passengers require special skills or physical agility.

    45. Re:Counterpoint. by AlphaJoe · · Score: 1

      I don't see this being more practical in small planes than simply having individual passenger parachutes in small planes, and letting them bail.

      There are many reasons why your spectacular solution will not work.

      For one thing, there is not enough room for passengers to wear chutes in a small plane. Space is very limited. You have more legroom in coach on an airliner than you do in a small plane. Imagine trying to sit on a flight with a parachute strapped to your back.

      If a small plane gets in a situation where it is going down, you are not getting out, short of the fuselage ripping away and you land on your ass still strapped to the seat. Getting in and out can be very difficult, depending on the model of plane. Low wing aircraft most notably. High-wing aircraft like the Cessna are a different story. Throw in the fact that the aircraft will be rolling or diving out of control and the g-forces are pulling you in one or more directions, your chances of getting out quick enough so that your chute will have time to deploy are slim to none. These things aren't like on TV where the plane is completely unresponsive and goes in to a long slow dive, giving you time to unlock the doors, undo your seatbelt, call your mommy, etc... The average small plane flys at an altitude between 6000 and 11000 feet. Above that and you are flying IFR and talking to the regional traffic control, plus most small planes can't fly above 13 or 14 thousand feet anyway. I myself fly around 3500 to 4000 feet. At that altitude, if I cut my engine and glide to the surface, it takes between 90 to 120 seconds to reach the ground. Again this varies from plane to plane, (Cessnas have an astounding glide time). In an emergency descent situation, where I descend the plane as quickly as possible, staying within the performance limits of the aircraft (meaning my airspeed does not go into the red), I can put the plane on the ground in less than 60 seconds, from 3500 feet. And that is in a controlled situation. If the aircraft is completely out of control, chances are it will get to the ground a lot faster, and not at an attitude that will bode well for the aircraft or its passengers.

      In a situation like this, it is way easier to reach up and pull the knob that deploys the planes chute than it is to help your passengers out because they are packed like sardines due to the enormous packs strapped to their backs.

      --
      A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
    46. Re:Counterpoint. by starman97 · · Score: 1

      Eek.. what the hell were you doing stalls for at 100AGL?

      I always climbed up to at least 1500AGL before trying any departure stalls, 7000 for a spin.

      --
      Starman97@Gmail.com (bring it on spammers)
    47. Re:Counterpoint. by Dr.+Cody · · Score: 1

      Eek.. what the hell were you doing stalls for at 100AGL?

      I always climbed up to at least 1500AGL before trying any departure stalls, 7000 for a spin.


      Well, you see, in going from 0AGL to 1800AGL, you have to pass through 100AGL. If you do not, you are doing something terribly wrong.

    48. Re:Counterpoint. by jred · · Score: 1

      smart-ass :)

      --

      jred
      I'm not a mechanic but I play one in my garage...
    49. Re:Counterpoint. by spagetti_code · · Score: 1
      IAASPP (I am a small plane pilot). In some small planes, its no easy task to load/unload people. On C172s, you have to move the front seats all the way forward to let the back pax out. So imagine, as a pilot, trying to coordinate this with panicing people (and pilot) and a plane furiously spinning into the ground.

      I like the concept and hope it works its way into the GA fleet. Problem is that the GA fleet is very old. Planes from the 50's and 60's still fly. Planes from the 70s often form the core of most aeroclub's fleet - it's just too darn expensive to replace them. I know very few pilots who fly planes less than 5 years old. Its not like a rental company that cycles its cars every 3 years.

    50. Re:Counterpoint. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "And what else is on the world besides the US?"

      Nothing important.

      Your friend,
      Dictat^WPresident George W. Bush

    51. Re:Counterpoint. by fataugie · · Score: 1
      The reason they're not easy to get anymore (what I've heard, not like I tried to buy one) is that Strict Product Liability laws have screwed the deal. Strict Liability means if someone takes a Cessna for instance, and crashes. And subsequently finds out that the third tailfin bolt is 1/4" out of spec, and that had anything to do with the crash...everyone in the product line gets sued. The dealer, the manufacturer, besides the owner who'd you'd expect to be sued anyway. So, the manufacturers of the inexpensive planes decided screw this crap, and stopped making light planes.

      IANAL, and IANAP (I am not a pilot), but I worked for someone who owned a small plane airport hanger/service/gas complex and that's what he told me in conversations back in '84. I'm sure there are parts of the story that are missing, and parts that have changed. But that is my current understanding of the problem.

      --

      WTF? Over?

    52. Re:Counterpoint. by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      That's exactly the reason. Also the reason that a new plane costs a huge amount of money. There's no reason why a small single engine plane in good condition should cost more than $100,000.

      The engines in cars today are more advanced than what's in planes. The frames are often more advanced as well. Now, much of this is done for reliability, but you have to ask, how further along personal aviation might be if it wasn't for liability concerns and the FAA holding things back.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    53. Re:Counterpoint. by Sockninja · · Score: 1

      I heard the FCC HATES it if you use swear words over the radio on the way down.

    54. Re:Counterpoint. by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      Thanks.. The site was slashed, so I had to guess how long the deployment took. Under the circumstances I was conservative. I couldn't see any way the deployment could take more than a couple of tens of seconds, but I'm not surprised it's as fast as five.

      In comparison, I can't see passengers being able to consistently bail as fast as 5 seconds, even if they're allready wearing their suits. (Of course, having everyone wear parachutes during flight 'just in case' is gonna do nasty things to passenger morale.)

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    55. Re:Counterpoint. by dwayrynen · · Score: 1

      I believe the major car rental companies recycle their fleet yearly. :-)

      Darin

    56. Re:Counterpoint. by Moofie · · Score: 1

      Yeah, these things are a Really Good Idea, particularly in cases like the Cirrus where they're integrated into the airframe (and hence don't occupy cargo volume).

      They're pretty lightweight, and they give you a big safety margin in the event of a disabled pilot or a seriously broken airplane.

      It's hard for me to understand the objections. I mean, yeah, pilots get nervous when they're in any airplane they can't control, but I can't imagine deploying that chute any time the pilot is still in control of the airplane.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    57. Re:Counterpoint. by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      I can easily understand pilots' squeamishness about thie. Pulling the 'chute is sn extremely non-reversable event that is, in any but the most miraculous of circumstances, going to result in thousands of dollars damage to the aircraft and serious inconvenience (if not some injury) to the occupants. Although a less disasterous event than firing the ejection seat of a fighter, it is probably an equally traumatic choice for your average pilot.

      The other thing that comes to mind is that most fatal aircraft incidents occur around takeoff and landing (( I can see this occuring for two reasons: One is that during takeoff and landing, your aircraft is going thru the most (and most rapid) changes -- both mechanical and aerodynamic. If anything is going to break, it's probably going to be then. The second reason (somewhat linked) is that if something does go wrong the pilot has precious little time for recovery)).
      At the lowest (and most dangerous) altitudes of takeoff and landing, the most that a chute is going to do is dissapate some of the horizontal kinetic energy (not an inconsequential result), but at the cost of ensuring a crash.

      My last fears would be accidental, spontanious and/or partial deployment.

      All that having been said, if I owned a small aircraft, I'd certainly take a serious look at installing a chute on it.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
  4. first post! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    but this isn't news ... Cirrus has been making such craft for years

    1. Re:first post! by Fnkmaster · · Score: 1

      Yes, and I'm pretty sure Cirrus' planes use this system, which they purchase from this company. So it's the same thing - Cirrus is their largest customer, since relatively few people want to retrofit something like this onto an existing plane.

    2. Re:first post! by wcdw · · Score: 1

      Yes, Cirrus does use the BRS chute, and has been for many years. They claim to be be working for TSO approval on other light singles.

      But how is any of this front page /. news?

      --
      If you're not living on the edge, you're just taking up space!
  5. Re:this is not the first post by User+956 · · Score: 2, Funny

    are you implying that the plane was shot down with... mind bullets?

    --
    The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
  6. I think that server needs one by GlassUser · · Score: 3, Funny

    The crash video one. Well, it had. I think it already crashed and burned.

  7. Re:What if? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To prevent the parachute from catching fire, all future versions will be made out of fire-resistant cast-iron moldings.

  8. Awesome by Jeppe+Salvesen · · Score: 4, Informative

    If I had an aeroplane, I would certainly get one. Seems pretty cheap considering that this will save your life in the event of engine loss (and various other conditions as well).

    Prices are not absolutely horrifying either (starts at 2000 USD, which has the ability to save 225 pounds of stuff and human).

    --

    Stop the brainwash

    1. Re:Awesome by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, I don't think this will ever be guaranteed to save your life, merely give you an extra step to try.

      However, it gives you a MUCH better chance of survival than nothing at all. Its much the same as seat belts in cars.

      My father goes hang-gliding, and its manditary to carry an emergency chute, but there are still accidents and incidents which occur.

      Your right to want one, and in the long run, the governments should be right to mandate them and if I ever became a pilot, I would expect one of these to be installed.

      --
      liqbase :: faster than paper
    2. Re:Awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your right to want one

      "You're"

  9. Not as good as it sounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait
    Deploying a parachute on a plane like this is _almost_ always a coverup for poor piloting skills or poor maintenance. Since the pilot of the plane is responsible for determining if an airplane is airworthy before flying, you had better know what you are doing before you fly. You do get this kind of training when you get your pilots license (unless your flight school/instructor was an idiot).


    The insurance rates for planes with these parachues is MUCH higher than that for my 4 seat Cessna - because the statistics so far support my premise above: they are bandaids for idiots. If you have reasonable skill, INSPECT your plane before you fly, and don't make stupid decisions like flying into bad weather, then flying is very safe even without parachute 'bandaids'.

    1. Re:Not as good as it sounds by Kjella · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Assuming you're the pilot, I imagine you mostly care about your own ass. I didn't know having a mechanics class was a required part of flying (which is why you have techs and mechs to handle that sort of thing).

      There's those errors, there's the freak accidents, and there's those kinds of wierd whether conditions you couldn't predict (like a sudden fog when there's supposed to be none). I'd still like the safety of a parachute.

      Your claim is kinda like saying that cars with airbags are more unsafe too, because people will rely on the airbag when they crash. It doesn't really make sense, so I imagine there's some other properties about those planes which make their premium so much higher. I don't think anyone who has used such a parachute would ever rely on it to save their ass. It might, but it is hardly a safe bet.

      Kjella

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    2. Re:Not as good as it sounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Being able to do a competent preflight and oversee your own maintenance is part of being a general aviation pilot. You don't always have an A&P handy.

    3. Re:Not as good as it sounds by cosmol · · Score: 0, Troll
      Wearing a seatbelt in a passenger car is almost always a coverup for poor driving skills or poor maintenance. Seatbelts are bandaids for idiots.

      What a ridiculous post.

    4. Re:Not as good as it sounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      " Deploying a parachute on a plane like this is _almost_ always a coverup for poor piloting skills or poor maintenance." Well, there's the stupid truism of the day. Bravo! Boy, with a logical prowess of that depth, no wonder they gave you your license. Yes, you're right. But, that does not remove the value of an extra level of safety. Unless, that is, you're one of those guys that says things like: "His motorcycle helmet is a cover up for poor driving skills." "Seatbelts are a cover up for poor driving skills." "Real men don't need helmets, seatbelts or parachutes. These are simply indications that they shouldn't be taking part in the activity, in the first place." Suggestion: freak accidents aside, perhaps the issue actually is never "poor piloting skills" but rather poorly regulated systems of training that allow pilots who shouldn't be flying in the air to get a license. Very strong government regulations and oversight for this type of training should be able to protect people from themselves. But, does this mean that would then remove the need for safety mechanisms? No. Silly rabbit.

    5. Re:Not as good as it sounds by Shmooze · · Score: 1

      Since the pilot is responsible for the safety of the aircraft, how can you be responsible if you haven't checked that its not going to fall apart passing 500ft or something? Even so there's always freak accidents of course...

      To the people saying that a personal chute is better, I have a counter story, told to me while I was working on a glider field. (It's also true -- I met and spoke to the guy involved, he'll let you poke him in the back to feel the metal bolts he received!)

      One time this pilot arrived and rigged his glider, and took off as normal. Unfortunately, the bolt holding the elevator part of the (T-)tail on (yup, there's only one bolt on most gliders AFAIK, to make it easy to assemble) fell off, and his 'plane skyrocketed, before crashing pretty much down on its tail but tilted backwards, breaking the guys back quite badly and forcing him off gliding for a while.

      Now: How are you supposed to escape from a vertically oriented craft at 0g thats likely to fall on top of you even if you do get out? Even if not fully deployed a plane-chute would help to orient you better allowing a) a slightly softer more controlled "landing" and b) more chance of escape

    6. Re:Not as good as it sounds by mumblestheclown · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Since the pilot of the plane is responsible for determining if an airplane is airworthy before flying, you had better know what you are doing before you fly. You do get this kind of training when you get your pilots license (unless your flight school/instructor was an idiot).

      BULLSHIT!!!

      I am a flight instructor. I also teach on the SR22 (340 hours SR22, 7800 total time).

      I am *not* a big fan of the parachute--I don't think it's as cost effective as additional training, but your claims about its use and insurance rates dont stand up to any scrutiny.

      First, the insurnace bit: the insurance rates for an SR22 are higher for your Cessna because an SR22 costs about 5-6 times what your cessna 172 does, has an engine with over twice the horsepower, and flies a hell of a lot faster. Plus, the SR20/22, the only aircraft with these included standard, are relatively new airframes, which always make rates higher.

      Second: the "instructor idiot" bit. Let me ask you: do you also wear a seat belt / shoulder harness because your instructor was an idiot? Because, the first thing that must be said is that your assinine comment is no smarter than that of the idiots in the 50s who said that seat belts would only encourage reckless driving.

      No? then let me ask you another question: when would a good pilot deploy the parachute? say, control system failure due to a control line being snagged at a pully or something? Hmm.. let's see.. no way for a pilot to check this during preflight. So according to your "explanation" this is to be blamed on maintenance. So basically what you're saying is that "we should not install safety devices in aircraft because this will encourage bad maintenance." That is beyond stupid.

      Third, there is another MAJOR aspect to the BRS system - a lot of these planes are being bought by 60 year old doctors and lawyers. Doctors and lawywers who have heart attacks. While flying with their wives. 'Nuff said.

      I'd write more, but you are a moron and it ain't worth it.

    7. Re:Not as good as it sounds by Cid+Highwind · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and just think how much safer the roads could be if nobody had seatbelts or airbags!

      After all, good drivers who inspect their vehicles prior to a trip and don't make dumb decisions never have accidents...

      --
      0 1 - just my two bits
    8. Re:Not as good as it sounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Merry Christmas to you, too.

    9. Re:Not as good as it sounds by DavidTC · · Score: 1
      Despite what others say, you appear to be right...this is designed to help if your plane falls apart, and, you know what?

      A gas leak that causes you to run out of gas in midair? Somewhat acceptable.

      Your flaps stick? Your landing gear sticks? Somewhat acceptable.

      Your left wing falls off? Um, no. Not acceptable.

      You screwed up pretty seriously somewhere. Your plane shouldn't be falling apart unless it gets hit by a meteorite.

      Same thing with getting into an uncontrollable dive. What, exactly, was going on leading up to that? Was the pilot joining the mile high club? Was there a bet involving how long the pilot could hold the stick all the way to the right?

      It's like with cars, having roll bars built in. If you're tumbling down the road...well, possibly you should have planned your trip better.

      With roll bars you have the excuse that someone else might have screwed up and hit you, so I can see that, but, as there are almost no airplane collisions (And no small airplane holds together during them anyway.), that logic doesn't really work for parachutes designed to get people out of uncontrollable dives. You either got in an uncontrollable dive because you were goofing around, or you got in one because you didn't check the weather report and flew into a tornado.

      I mean, I'm not against parachutes on planes, they could help the few times something really weird happens. But, mostly, they do seem to be some sort of way out of not getting killed by shitty flying, and I have to suggest the solution to that is less shitty flying.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    10. Re:Not as good as it sounds by jeephistorian · · Score: 1

      Yep, because everybody should be perfect and not worry about the possibility of a loose bolt or whatever. I always tighten every bolt on my car before leaving for work.....right.....

      ________

      --
      Huh?
  10. Chutes are "the law" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here in Europe, in my case Germany, a rescue parachute is mandatory by law for ALL ultralight aircrafts. That are single and 2 seaters with max 472kg weight. (Similar to microlights in the US ?)

    All planes have that rescue system. A small rocket which pulls the parachute out in about a second.

    There are not many cases when you need it, but it saves your life if you make a fatal mistake.

    Most cases are pilot errors, ie. flying in a cloud without instruments.

    Wings dont break off and planes do not fall to the ground when the engine stalls.

    I rather do a safe glide landing than pull the cute, EXCEPT I am over a forest or rocky terrain (which can also be put under pilot errors)

    Such a backup is a good thing to have. Larger aircrafts can benefit from it too.

    1. Re:Chutes are "the law" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of chutes.

      But what is this "cute" you speak of? That sounds FAR more interesting. Sounds like I'd much rather have one of those.

  11. Video Slashdotted Already? by Orcspit · · Score: 1

    Welp, looks like the videos are down already.

    1. Re:Video Slashdotted Already? by no-karma-no-worries · · Score: 1

      mirror here and here (WMV format only)

  12. for small passenger craft by zogger · · Score: 1

    I like the idea of the inflatable rogallo wing configuration. It's a balloon type deal shaped like a hang gliders wing, provides IIRC more than half the lift required. Originally I think they were helium filled, but I am thinking, suppose the engine had an integral air compressor, and used heat from the engine to pre heat the air going to inflate the wing. That would provide a lot of lift just like a hot air balloon, and eliminate the helium cost. Once inflated a pressure adjusted valve would automagically open and release some cooler air and add in more hot air from the engine to maintain optimal lift, that and the forward motion over the inflated wing gives all the lift required.. Even in the event of "catastrophic" engine failure, you would still have some decent lift left, and could glide to an emergency landing,much better than a normal fixed wing craft with an all of a sudden huge dead weight on the nose. Plus, it would be a lot more steerable than a parachute just hanging off a fixed wing, so you would have better choice on your emergency landing area.

    1. Re:for small passenger craft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, yeah. Let's add heavy extra systems to deploy a system that only gets used in an emergency, if the pilot realizes he's in an unusual attitude or recognizes the grave nature of his situation.

      Complex systems have more potential modes of failure. Making backup systems complex doesn't strike me as very intelligent.

    2. Re:for small passenger craft by grmoc · · Score: 1


      No wing is likely to help in many kinds of stalls or spins.

      Think flat-spin, or stall-in-the-clouds-with-no-instruments.

  13. They're being sued... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Man, I hope those lawsuits fail. I don't care if it was a design flaw--nobody's perfect (though they should be obligated to fix it). I'd hate to see a lifesaving device/company like this shut down. Can the plaintiffs' lawyers possibly believe the crap they spew about trying to make the world a better place?

    Forget IP law, guys and gals. This is what's wrong with our legal system.

    1. Re:They're being sued... by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      Link? GoogleNews doesn't have anything about they being sued. (Just other stories and press releases.)

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    2. Re:They're being sued... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (I'm the GP)...

      It's in the CNN article linked from the submission.

  14. $1000 Says an American Invented the Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I'd bet $1000 on the fact that an American invented the idea of tying a parachute to the aircraft. Despite the much vaunted claims of Chinese superiority by Chinese H-1Bs and Indian H-1Bs, nothing beats Yankee ingenuity.

    Note that the Personal Computer was invented in the USA.

  15. Re:this is not the first post by caino59 · · Score: 1

    that's telekinesis kyle...

  16. Makes Sense to me by anand78 · · Score: 0

    What never made sense to me on my my multiple flights was how rediculus the Safety system aboard many flights we have. Conventional wisdom says if you are flying in air you need something for survival when god-forbid something happens to you that works i air and not water. However it is just the opposite , even if you fly from two airports with no water body in between, the first thing you hear is how to use a lifejacket. C'mon now by the time someone would crash, he wont be alive to float and bolw the darned whistle for help.
    Wouldn't it make more sense to have a parachute/ combination of parachute and lifejacket with each passenger. This would at least give a passenger some protection when they are heading down.

  17. Real info from a pilot by noahbagels · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Hi fellow /. readers,
    I've been an FAA certified private pilot for a couple of years and read many of the monthly general-aviation magazines/websites/etc...

    Just to give some real info about parachutes and small planes.
    Myth # 1: Engine Failure ==> Crash.
    This is very un-true. Reading usenet forums (rec.aviation.piloting/owning/student) there are a great deal of forced-landings involving full or partial engine failure. From the very beginning of flight training, you are tought to always have a place you can glide safely to. In reality, this is difficult - particularly on takeoff climbing out, but for most of the 'time' portion of any flight it is very doable.
    Myth # 2: Personal Parachutes are easy - c'mon, we see them in movies all the time. Fact: it is *not* easy to jump out of a moving plane. I took about 5 hours of aerobatic lessons, and let me tell you - it's tough enough getting into small planes, but try it with a 15lb full-chair-back size parachute stuck to you. It was actually difficult getting in and out on the ground, stopped. Add to that, most airplanes have doors that open like car doors - opening to the back. Any idea what the aerodynamic forces are at, say 100 mph? The aerobatic plane I flew had an emergency full-door release that pulled out the door-hinge pins at the front.

    Now, back to the BRS parachutes. These are being put mostly on Cirrus Designs aircraft - very sweet, beautiful planes IMHO. These aircraft are *very* capable, fast, and a bit tougher to fly than your average Cessna 182 (from the reports I've read). Most times an aircraft gets in trouble, it's due to the pilot making a bad decision, not due to engine failure. Bad decisions like: flying into bad weather (IMC), scud running below low overcast, etc... These are the places where BRS was intended to be used:
    1. Inadvertant Spins - the Cirrus is highly spin resistant, but it is possible & people have died in Cirrus following a spin.
    2. Full instrument failure in IMC (clouds,fog,etc). This could leave the pilot with few ways to save the lives of the people inside.

    A last fact: from what I've read, the BRS does not in-fact save insurance companies money. It nearly totals the plane. Think about a house-sized parachute attached to your average family sedan, deployed by rockets at 120mph. The planes are mostly totalled, but the avionics & engine (most expensive parts after the airframe) are likely salvagable.

    1. Re:Real info from a pilot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Think about a house-sized parachute attached to your average family sedan, deployed by rockets at 120mph.

      If only the "rocket car guy" had used one of these .. (Or even existed.)

    2. Re:Real info from a pilot by Travoltus · · Score: 1

      I'd imagine that the insurance companies save money on the lives that aren't lost. Dead people potentially make for a lot of liabilities if they have relatives...

      --
      --- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
    3. Re:Real info from a pilot by Shmooze · · Score: 1

      Yup the planes are almost totalled... I heard about this november (I think) last year, from New Scientist, and it said that for most of the planes it'd been fitted to the force of impact was enough to destroy the undercarriage and cause it to badly deform the structure of the airframe above -- which would cost loads to check & repair, leaving pretty much the avionics and engines to reuse (as well as some nice scrap!)

      Heck, the impact doesn't even need to be that fast for this to happen! I've only flown a few hours and I've seen two aircraft returned to the manufacturers for repair after that landings that looked fine (if a touch heavy!) caused the undercarriage to start to buckle.

    4. Re:Real info from a pilot by bwy · · Score: 1

      Overall, good post and I understand your points.

      However, I don't think the real question is whether a plane is BRS equipped. From a physics standpoint, a BRS equipped plane isn't any different from any other plane with a little extra cargo.

      This isn't like an airbags or no airbags argument- the driver of a car has no control over the airbag deployment once they are enabled. This is a pilot decision argument. Will a pilot use this facility prematurely or when it isn't actually necessary, just because it is there? Who knows- it depends on the pilot.

      I guess one could very well have the same discussion about ejection seats. The difference of course is that an F-14 pilot is among the best trained in the world, where as a Cessna 172 pilot might only have 60 hours of training. But, note that it isn't the presence of the ejection seat that changes the dynamics of the discussion- it is solely pilot training and decision making.

    5. Re:Real info from a pilot by mumblestheclown · · Score: 4, Interesting
      An SR22 is much easier to fly than a C182.

      I have given over 330 hours of SR22 instruction and have over 200 hours in cessna 182s. I know what I'm talking about. The SR22 is aerodynamically very clean and engine management is trivial. Landing speeds are similar. The only tricky bit is that the SR22 is faster in cruise and climb. I've transitioned 60 hour private pilot wonders from piper warriors to SR22s "takeoffs and landings" in a flight or two. Getting a feel for the avionics takes longer.

    6. Re:Real info from a pilot by Brilo · · Score: 1

      I am also a licensed pilot and have looked at the Cirrus Design planes that have these parachutes as standard equipment. A big part of the marketing pitch for these parachutes is they can be deployed if the pilot is incapacitated. Most pilots are men - statistical fact - and they often fly with their spouses. The wife typically can't fly the plane let alone land it. There are accidents logged in the NTSB database where the pilot had a heart attack and everyone on board died when the plane went down. The parachute buys a lot of piece of mind with the spouses which makes it a great selling point.

    7. Re:Real info from a pilot by dj51d · · Score: 1

      The landing gear on the Cirrus is actually part of the system, it is designed to provide some cushion to the impact and then collapse.

      I know that at least one of the aircraft was returned to service after the chute had been deployed.

  18. If you had an aeroplane? by SimonShine · · Score: 1

    Your suggestion makes me think of tv-shop just after September 11 when "personal parachutes" where hot. They seem pretty cheap considering that they will save your life in the event of finding yourself in a skyscraper caught on fire.

    --
    Stop the brainwash.
    --
    Take off every 'ZIG' !!
    1. Re:If you had an aeroplane? by JamieF · · Score: 1

      You should just wear body armor and a helmet in case you're caught in a firefight or in case something heavy lands on your head.

      And a tinfoil hat in case mind-control radio waves really are being beamed at you.

  19. I'm not convinced by Ann+Elk · · Score: 4, Informative

    As a pilot (ASEL, IA) and owner (Cessna 182), I'm not convinced I could ever "pull the lever" on this thing. Once this device is deployed, you are no longer the pilot -- you are just a passenger with no control over where or how the plane will land.

    Flying a small plane is not risk-free, and it never will be.

    1. Re:I'm not convinced by gregmac · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm not a pilot, but one thing I didn't like in this article was the talk of "relying" on one. It seems to me, the parachute would be the absolute LAST option - if there's no way you can land the plane on your own, then you pull the lever and hope the parachute saves you.

      The article talks about the families suing the company because the parachutes didn't work. It's not like the parachutes killed them .. if there was no parachute, then the plane would still crash.

      --
      Speak before you think
    2. Re:I'm not convinced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      'm not a pilot, but one thing I didn't like in this article was the talk of "relying" on one. It seems to me, the parachute would be the absolute LAST option - if there's no way you can land the plane on your own, then you pull the lever and hope the parachute saves you.

      I concur. I see these as a last resort/second chance sort of thing.

      On a side note if you read closely you'll see that the pilot still has faith in the parachute. It is the passenger who says that he'll never rely on one again. I guess he just needs to stay the hell out of airplanes.

      From the article:
      In another accident, one month before the Syracuse crash, pilot Paul Heflin of Lexington, Kentucky, repeatedly pulled hard on the parachute handle when his plane began a steep, uncontrolled dive from 3,000 feet. "He was pulling for his life," recalled Heflin's passenger, Benjamin Ditty. Both suffered minor injuries but walked away from the wreckage.

      The parachute popped open just after the plane crashed, "which was not too convenient for us," Ditty said. Months after Heflin's crash, Cirrus ordered all its customers to immediately replace a vital cable in the parachute system.

      Heflin said he still has faith in the parachute, but Ditty -- who also flies -- said he would never rely on one again. "It was supposed to work," he said.


    3. Re:I'm not convinced by deblau · · Score: 1
      I'm a pilot too, ASEL. Ever been upside down in a spin? OK, how about one that you didn't plan? My first spin scared the mortal shit out of me, even if it was under control. Had I been alone in there, I would have reached for a parachute without a second thought.

      If you wanna risk your life, that's your call. Just promise me that your next of kin won't sue if something unfortunate ever happens, because for my sake, I want a parachute on my plane. If I can't get the thing under control before I get close to Va (for my takeoff weight!), I'm pulling the lever.

      --
      This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
    4. Re:I'm not convinced by Moofie · · Score: 1

      If your airplane has experienced a structural failure of sufficient magnitude to warrant pulling the lever, you are no longer the pilot anyhow. The only question is whether or not you'd like to hit the ground at a really uncomfortable speed.

      You pick: Airframe parachute, or terrain feature.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    5. Re:I'm not convinced by Ann+Elk · · Score: 1
      Ever been upside down in a spin?

      No, but I know the recovery procedure. Frankly, I doubt if this parachute device has been tested in those conditions. The rocket fires "up", out of the rear window. What happens when activated in an inverted spin? Would the plane fall onto the 'chute? If so, this could completely prevent any normal spin recovery procedure. Of course, this is all just a WAG on my part.

      Had I been alone in there, I would have reached for a parachute without a second thought.

      This runs contrary to everything I learned during my pilot training. My instructor's mantra was "never stop flying the plane". Your odds of survival are much greater in a controlled landing than in an uncontrolled landing. And that's what this parachute provides -- an uncontrolled landing.

      If you wanna risk your life, that's your call.

      If the risks of flying a small plane ever become too great for me, I'll stop flying.

    6. Re:I'm not convinced by Ann+Elk · · Score: 1

      The odds of experiencing a major structural failure in a properly maintained airplane are extremely low, practically down in the statistical noise.

      I bought a Cessna 182 because (a) it has one of the best safety records of any plane ever built, and (b) it can carry a lot of stuff. I am not be willing to compromise (b) by adding alleged "safety" equipment that will have a negligible effect on (a).

    7. Re:I'm not convinced by deblau · · Score: 1
      The SR22 POH Section 7 says that the parachute has been tested while flying inverted and in spins, but "deployment in an attitude other than level flight may yield deployment characteristics other than those described above". Heh, no kidding. I think they're the ones WAGging.

      I was also drilled with "never stop flying the plane." Of course, that doesn't mean "fly the plane into the ground." What it means to me is, "always keep the plane under control: predictable and safe." If I've lost positive control, for whatever reason, that's my first priority: get back to predictable and safe. Having a parachute on board is one more way I can do that. Yes, I'll bend the plane, but I'd rather do it at 20 mph than Vne.

      You are assuming that "I'm flying the plane" means "the plane is under my control." That's true more than 99.9% of the time, but that's not what we're talking about here. If I blow my engine, I'm obviously not gonna pull the parachute, since the plane is still under my positive control. Same thing if I run out of gas, or other minor emergencies. I'm talking about situations in which positive control is simply impossible, like losing a wing due to mid-air, and the PIC having a stroke (in which case the wife saves everyone's life).

      I don't think flying is too dangerous, or I wouldn't fly for my own safety. I don't think I'm an unsafe pilot, or I wouldn't fly for the safety of pilots like you that I share the sky with. I just think that too many GA accidents occur because the situation gets out of control, and someone (anyone!) is too afraid to break the chain because it would be embarrassing. I've had to abort a takeoff before, and I called the tower. Yeah, I was a little red-faced, but I got a tow and answered a few questions, and that was that. I'd rather take a shot to my ego and be safe on the ground, then be another greasy smear for the FAA and NTSB to deal with. Your safety methods are of course at your discretion. If we differ in our approaches, then let's just agree to disagree, but at least give me the option to use the parachute.

      --
      This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
    8. Re:I'm not convinced by Ann+Elk · · Score: 1
      ...deployment in an attitude other than level flight may yield deployment characteristics other than those described above...

      Uhh...no shit.

      My main concern with this device is a general fear that it will become a crutch. I can easily imagine some idiot thinking "Yeah, there are some icing reports today, and my plane isn't certified for known icing, but what the heck, I've got a 'chute, let's go!".

      I also have a general fear that these will eventually become mandatory. Some "high profile" celebrity/politician pilot will die in a stupid accident and there will be a "knee jerk" reaction to require 'chutes in all light planes.

      And one last observation -- I suggest that anyone who flies with one of these 'chutes in an area near large bodies of water also keep a life raft and/or life vests in their plane...

    9. Re:I'm not convinced by Moofie · · Score: 1

      Ah. Well, the guy who pulled his BRS over Dallas, TX had an aircraft that was maintained by the factory-approved AP staff, and he still had an aileron come unhinged and put him in a bad spot.

      What happens to your passengers if you have a heart attack?

      Is it statistically likely? I don't know. Would it be an appropriate piece of safety equipment for some pilots in some situations? Absolutely.

      YOU might not want one...doesn't mean they're a bad idea.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
  20. Re:first post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    YOU Fail it sucka.... eat it neal

  21. Lawyers by The+AtomicPunk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think it's great that our brave lawyers can see through the fact that this system has saved 8 lives, and instead focus on getting $67M out of the company for a failure, thus hopefully putting the company out of business and saving no further lives, but ensuring the brave lawyers never need work again. :)

    1. Re:Lawyers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      8? Try 167.

    2. Re:Lawyers by Deadstick · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, y'know, there wouldn't be a lot of sleazy lawyers if there weren't sleazy clients to pay their bills.

      rj

    3. Re:Lawyers by Bios_Hakr · · Score: 1

      Just establish your buisness in a 3-rd world country and continue to do buisness in the US. Maybe have dealers come to the UK to pick up the merchendice for that year. Then the dealers carry it to the US and re-sell it.

      Well, it works for DeBerrs...

      Last I heard, there executives are forbiden from entering the USA because their buisness is in violation of a Federal Court order.

      --
      I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
    4. Re:Lawyers by JuggleGeek · · Score: 1
      Well, y'know, there wouldn't be a lot of sleazy lawyers if there weren't sleazy clients to pay their bills.

      I'm not sure that's true. Many of the rediculous cases are sleazy lawyers who find some schmuck who couldn't afford to pay them anyway, and tell them "For 50% of the profit, I'll handle the case for you, and we'll sue them for 50 million". The case may get settled out of court for much less - but it's all profit for the schmuck, and there wouldn't have been a lawsuit at all without the sleazy lawyers.

      The system needs a way for lawyers that bring nonsense cases in to end up being punished, and to lose the ability to sue at all if they do it too often.

    5. Re:Lawyers by WNight · · Score: 1

      Actually, this is false. Most sleazy lawyers go out and search for people either sleazy, stupid, or merely clueless enough to be clients in high-dollar cases.

      This is why sleazy lawyers chase ambulances. All they need to do is plant the hook of greed, or rightful-payback, in a "client" willing to let the lawyer run the show. But really, wouldn't most people be there if the lawyer showed us "proof" that our mother's car crash was really part of an ongoing pattern of negligence in the maker of the brakes?

      This whole coddle the lawyers thing is bullshit. They know what they go to law school for.

  22. I wonder by iminplaya · · Score: 5, Funny

    if a similar idea could be used to save a sinking boat. Instead of a parchute obviosly, you could use huge balloons. It could at least slow down the sinking to give time to get into a life boat or raft.

    --
    What?
    1. Re:I wonder by izomiac · · Score: 1

      Or have a few tanks of compressed helium and a large balloon in a small plane. It your plane starts to crash turn it into a blimp. Or even slowly release the helium for a more effective (and probably expensive) parachute.

    2. Re:I wonder by Mgdm · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's common on search & rescue helicopters that spend a lot of time over water. Things like Sikorsky S-61s and Sea Kings have them so that the helicopter can land on the water if it's really necessary. They're fitted to the outriggers that hold the wheels on the ones I've flown in.

    3. Re:I wonder by Quixote · · Score: 1
      I say, combine the two.

      Instead of a parachute, release a hot-air balloon, heated by the engine. If the plane's going down, bam! Out comes the balloon and you genetly float off, continuing to your destination.

      Sure, you may arrive a few hours/days late, but that's better than not arriving at all. ;-)

    4. Re:I wonder by Council · · Score: 1

      this and other comments keep mentioning hot-air balloons because it's easy to imagine heating air dynamically.

      hot air gives lousy, LOUSY lift for volume. so so much less than helium.

      (ideal gas law and shit, you go up 50 degrees celsius and that's going from 300 to 350 kelvin and that gives you a few tenths of a density difference, meaning maybe up to 100 grams per cubic meter, versus the full 1000/m^3 you get with helium. just numbers off the top of my head might be off a bit, but the principles are right)

      I bet you $50 you'd never get a non-ultralight plane held up by hot air balloons. helium, maybe. hot air, not a chance.

      --
      xkcd.com - a webcomic of mathematics, love, and language.
    5. Re:I wonder by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      Most small planes don't have enought power to lift off with full seats and tanks. They could if you can use the runway at Edward's Air Force base, maybe. You'll need a second plane to carry all that other equipment.

      --
      What?
    6. Re:I wonder by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      If you want the best possible lift for volume, you'll want to fill the balloon with a vacuum. I'm not sure how many tanks of that you would need.

      --
      What?
    7. Re:I wonder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Vaccum actually gives negligably better lift compared to helium. Intuition tells you it'd be more, but the lift is just the difference in weights. air - helium = 1.27 - 0.05 or so, air - vacuum = 1.27 - 0.00. Figures for helium are made up but it's somewhere around there.

  23. NO FIRST POST FOR YOU!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Come back, ONE STORY!
    [/fp nazi]

  24. I wouldn't get one ... by pherris · · Score: 1

    ... unless I had a chance at getting a tie. =)

    --
    "And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
  25. A buddy of mine has a Cirrus... by rarose · · Score: 2, Insightful

    and on their discussion list was a report of another chute pull. If I remember right, on the first flight after the annual the pilot discovered that the left aileron hadn't been properly reattached and had pulled free and was dangling from one hinge. The pilot was able to get fairly low and slow over a golf course and pull the chute.

    Given the choice between landing at DFW with no roll control or popping the chute... well the chute sounds pretty damn attractive to me.

    --
    --Rob
    1. Re:A buddy of mine has a Cirrus... by Kitten+Killer · · Score: 1

      I hope they found out who/why the aileron came loose (and I hope he learned to do better pre-flight walk-arounds in the future).

      Still, a lost aileron isn't going to equal a complete lack of roll control. Rudders will give you both yaw control and a limited amount of roll control. Keep in mind that there's also the natural tendency for planes to remain wings-level (dihedral angle?). In addition, the emergency facilities at DFW are probably a fair bit better than the 9th hole fairway.

      I'm not saying I would have landed at DFW instead. I'm not saying firing the BRS was a bad idea. But I am saying it's not as straight forward as it appears.

    2. Re:A buddy of mine has a Cirrus... by lachlan76 · · Score: 1

      and I hope he learned to do better pre-flight walk-arounds in the future

      We both know it's never going to happen...do you remember that incedent where flourescent orange duct tape (so you wouldn't forget to take it off) was left on the plane (the tape was put over something while maintenence was being done, I'm not a pilot or aeronautic engineer, so I can't remember what it was), and completely fucked up the altimeter readings.

      The pilot started to figure out what was going on when the tower gave different altitude readings from his own in the cockpit. He ended up hitting the sea, when he thought he was at about 4500 i think, don't know if he tried landing ILS though.

    3. Re:A buddy of mine has a Cirrus... by Kitten+Killer · · Score: 1

      The big orange thing labelled "Remove Before Flight"? Coveres anything from pitot tube covers to control locks. Yes, it has been known for trained pilots to try to take off, only to notice a big slab of metal sticking through the yoke with "remove before flight" clearly printed on it, locking the controls in place. the result is almost always a crash.

      It happens more often than you think, by people with the experience and knowledge to know better, but it still happens, and the result is often a Darwin Award.

      There are hundreds of psychological reason why things like this happen. Unfortunately, the people who learn form their mistake often don't live long enough to use it.

    4. Re:A buddy of mine has a Cirrus... by lachlan76 · · Score: 1

      This would be what you were talking about.

      No, I think the duct tape was over his altimeter, and it was the ground crew that left it there (It was an airliner, IIRC). Hopefully they learned from that.

    5. Re:A buddy of mine has a Cirrus... by lachlan76 · · Score: 1

      Sorry, not the altimeter itself, but the sensors on the outside.

      Probably happened before GPS.

  26. Re:this is not the first post by Curtman · · Score: 1

    Speaking of which, heads up for anyone in the area:

    The D are playing in New Zealand & Australia next week.

    Get there if you know whats good for you.

  27. Slow news day? by Sebby · · Score: 1
    I guess it must be on Christmas - these have been out for YEARS

    --

    AC comments get piped to /dev/null
    1. Re:Slow news day? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what? this is about a story where it saved someone, not that such thing exists.

  28. power of marketing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There is nothing new about either the BRS product or its use on the Cirrus airplane. This is a news item only because BRS/Cirrus employes some of the top promotional folks in the general aviation industry.

    The fact is that the insurance industry considers the parachute-equipped Cirrus to be a very risky airplane as evidenced by very high insurance rates and restrictive coverage.

    The occasions in which deployment of a parachute would be a good solution to a problem in flight are very rare. Having the perceived ability to "pull the handle" to get out of trouble creates a false sense of safety for the pilot; exactly the last thing you want to do.

    1. Re:power of marketing by mumblestheclown · · Score: 2, Informative
      The fact is that the insurance industry considers the parachute-equipped Cirrus to be a very risky airplane as evidenced by very high insurance rates and restrictive coverage.

      Sigh. SR22 has expensive insurance. SR22 has BRS. Therefore, BRS = expensive insurance.

      = BULLSHIT.

      The Sr22 insurance is expensive beacause it's a fast new airplane with a big engine being bought by low time pilots. The BRS has nothing to do with it.

      / I know what I am talking about.

    2. Re:power of marketing by pyotrmarx · · Score: 1

      Actually...the insurance rate on the Cirrus is high due to 24 fatalities since its introduction. By comparison, the Diamond DA-40/G1000 I own has an insurance rate 1/4th as high (for the same hull value and liability coverage) since there has only been one fatal accident (which happened just a few weeks ago, most likely due to flight into terrible weather). The Cirrus has a relatively poor aerodynamic design for such a new airplane. The parachute does not improve its flying characteristics. It has had a similar accident rate to the Cessna 172, a plane which has been out for 50+ years. The BRS is a great system. It does not offset poor piloting or poor aerodynamic design, though.

    3. Re:power of marketing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not correctly understanding another person's comment and then calling it "BULLSHIT" is certainly the way to demonstrate your expertise and show everyone that you know what you are talking about!

      The Cirrus is a "high performance" single but it is not a complex airplane. Despite that, the insurance rates and pilot requirments for the Cirrus are significantly in excess of other singles which are both high performance and complex. Taken another way, a pilot with a given set of experience will find it harder and more costly to be insured in a Cirrus than a competing airplane no matter how you look at it.

      Actually, I don't claim to have any idea as to the effect that the presence of the BRS parachute on the Cirrus has on the higher insurance premiums. Maybe the rates would be even higher if the plane didn't have the chute; after all, unlike competing airplanes, the Cirrus has received no spin certification whatsoever.

      The fact is, however, that Cirrus has been quite successful in selling their aircraft despite insurance, pilot qualification and other issues but that is due to best-of-class marketing and not because they have a better product.

    4. Re:power of marketing by mumblestheclown · · Score: 1
      ...the insurance rate on the Cirrus is high due to 24 fatalities since its introduction.

      Fair enough--but linked to the speed and complexity of the aircraft.

      The DA40 has a 180hp engine and a 600 pound useful load. Apples and oranges. Yes, the accident rate doesn't help, but the original poster essentially claimed that it was because of the BRS system that the insurance is high, which is nonsense.

      To claim that the SR22 has poor aerodynamic design is either actual ignorance, or the sort of ignorance that one aquires by hanging around on aviaiton message boards too long listening to self-proclaimed experts spout off. The parachute (when undeployed, obviously) does (next to) nothing to the SR22's flying characteristics.

      But then again, what do I know.

      / 330+ hours SR22 instruction given // 7800 TT /// Gold Seal, Master CFI, ATP, EIEI-O

    5. Re:power of marketing by pyotrmarx · · Score: 1
      I've spent a lot of time flying the SR-22 (and SR-20 and many others). It's a slippery machine which isn't too terrible when compared with some very old and/or odd machines.

      The fact that the Cirrus has a poor design is borne out by the accident and incident numbers. It has the worst in the industry for a brand-new design. And despite the parachute.

      Sorry to have hit a nerve with you, but I'm not sure what you do know. I've flown with CFIs who were afraid to do a slip. Many are afraid to do spins. Many are afraid of truly unusual attitudes.

      The suit involving Cirrus and the deaths of its two owners, an ATP (airline transport pilot for those who are reading this who aren't aviation nuts) and a commercially-rated pilot, is a case in point. They apparently entered a flat spin. Huh? In a well-designed airplane? Two days after they bought it and went through factory training? You're kidding, aren't you?

      If you're interested in flying some very good designs, try gliders. I've a lot of hours in them and can tell you that in comparison the Cirrus is a poor aerodynamic design. The fact that the Cirrus requires the parachute (apparently to satisfy the FAA spin requirements), the wing cuffs, and the required flat landing attitude are all testiments to this.

      Do you know of any other airplane which can't recover from a spin without requiring a parachute? Nuts.

      IMHO, of course.

    6. Re:power of marketing by mumblestheclown · · Score: 1
      I have a BGA Gold certificate. Is that enough gliding experience for you? Not that I would consider my (or your) soaring experince to be particularly pertinent to judging the aerodynamic merits of airplanes. Why don't we just compare the DA40 to a dumptruck to comment on its soil carrying capabilities, while we're at it? Or, more pertinently, since you mention that the cirrus requires a flat landing (which is absolute nonsense, by the way--it requires no flatter a landing than a Piper Arrow), please do let me know about which one of your favorite gliders allows for that nice generous flare?

      That said, you haven't hit a nerve at all with me, and I could care less if you bash the Cirrus. I do it all the time. I think it's a nice plane to fly as long as you're flying on somebody else's dollar... and it does have plenty of faults. I was actually the first to discover a major navigation system bug that, frankly, put me off flying the thing in solid IFR for some itme. However, you really havent evidenced the claim that it is a poorly aerodynamically designed airplane at all. A crash rate could (and in this case can) be explained by other factors besides aerodynamic design, including build quality, pilot training, avionics issues, and so forth.

      Do I know of any other airplane which can't recover from a spin without requiring a parachute? Actually, up until this statement, I would have taken you at face value. Now that you said that, I somewhat doubt your claimed flying experience. Try putting any twin into a spin and seeing how far you get without a parachute. Try putting most low-wing Pipers into a spin and see how far you get (you'll recover from most of the non T-tail ones, but you'll never do it again). Remember: the SR22 is PLACARDED AGAINST INTENTIONAL SPINS. It is not an aircraft that is meant to be jerked around with abrupt control maneuvers during slow flight, either. Getting into a spin in an aircraft placarded against intentional spins is gross ineptitude, full stop.

      That said, one of the problems with the SR22 is that the sidestick makes it feel to pilots as if it were an aerobatic aircraft and so there is tendency of pilots who have time in stick aircraft to want to muck about with it. Knowing little else, I suggest that this may have been an issue in the accident you speak of.

      By the way, neither is a 777 - and you'd hardly claim that it has a poor aerodynamic design!

    7. Re:power of marketing by BeaverCleaver · · Score: 1

      "evidenced"? Evidence isn't a verb!

    8. Re:power of marketing by pyotrmarx · · Score: 1
      Guess I hit several nerves...;-)

      Not sure what your points are here. The SR-22's POH/AFM states that in case of spin, pull the chute. 'Nuff said.

      As for all of the other chaff in your note, not much point in responding.

      I was amused by the comment about side-sticks making it seem like an aerobatic aircraft. I've never seen an aerobatic aircraft with a side-stick, only center sticks. The ones I've owned, rented, and flown all had center sticks. Gliders and powered. Where are you coming from with this comment? And the 777? Waah!

      Have a good new year's. And be careful with the Cirrus.

  29. slashdotted by groups.google · · Score: 0

    deployment video is already slashdotted

  30. Product Liabilty distortion by jamiefaye · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The problem with marketing systems like this is that if you save someone's life, you get a thank-you note, and if you don't succeed, you get sued for 20 million dollars.

    My father-in-law invented and marketed a device that automatically deployed a parachute if a skydiver did not pull the rip-cord and the alitude is less than N feet above MSL. He got out of the business in a hurry after he was sued because the device did not work when the parachute partially deployed - which slowed the descent enough not to fire the safety mechanism, but still fast enough to kill on impact.

    So while an insurance company might save money, the manufacturer has a strong disincentive to deploy imperfect mechanisms for saving lives.

    1. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Sounds like another point for the need for tort reform.

      All devices fail, including safety ones. You just have to build them as best as you can.

      Maybe a system where the manufacturer is only liable for "known conditions". IE they're only liable if they fail to correct the product when a defect becomes known. If the vulnerability is unfixable(IE we use seatbelts, even though they're not 100% effective), as long as you're safer with the product than without it, it's considered good.

      The person who comes up with a better one makes alot of money.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    2. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      Tort reform is a keyword for restricting the power of the customer. Companies suing each other is a much more major use of the courts than individuals suing companies.

      Republicans just love to hold up these sorts of examples, as if all court cases were abuses of the system. What they are really after is removing that particular check on corporate power.

      In the end, you can trace it down to the Republican drive to increase corporate power at the expense of the regular guy.

      Now, to make this right on-topic: if a safety device fails, and I die as a result, I'm going to sue. That device was marketed to perform a specific task, and I chose that device instead of some other device. If the trial finds that the product was defective, then they should pay up.

      The right for the regular guy to sue in defense of his own rights is not counter productive to having safety equipment. You yourself bring up the fact that we somehow have safety belts AND lawsuits. If tort reform were really killing the safety industry, then safety wouldn't be the billions of dollars a year industry that it currently is.

      No tort reform. That's like holding the little guy's arms behind his back.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    3. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Seat belts were implemented before the predatory suing started.

      In this example the inventer of this particular system of parachute created a system that costs about 10k that has a chance of returning a plane no longer capable of controlled flight to the ground in relative safety. A problem occurs, and suddenly the company is being sued for $26 million. That is the total cost of 2,600 of these systems. IE in order to cover this liability, they would have to double the cost of the system to $20,000, and still sell 2,600 parachutes.

      Now, to make this right on-topic: if a safety device fails, and I die as a result, I'm going to sue.
      hmmm... Death must not be much of an obsticle to you.

      On another note, lets say that you suffer a heart attack. I attempt to give you CPR, however that fails. Should I be sued by your estate for failing to save you? Say I use an automatic defibulater. Should I be liable, should the maker of the defibulater be liable? Do you think that maybe it's the liability that causes these machines to cost so much? Maybe having heard about these suits, I decide not to get involved, due to the risk of being sued. Now your chances drop rather greatly, because my liability for attempting to save you exceeds my gains for doing so(the good feeling of saving a life).

      All I'm saying is that it's a shame that when the device works perfectly, you get a pat on the back. When it fails, you get slapped with a multi-million dollar lawsuit.

      then safety wouldn't be the billions of dollars a year industry that it currently is.

      Sure, for established safety devices. And for devices that are mandated federally. But new, experimental safety systems, like this parachute? Nope, you won't find much of an industry for them. You won't especially see small businesses taking the liability on.

      This parachute system is a "better than nothing" system. I think that it'd be a shame that they're sued out of existance, preventing or delaying the deployment of this life-saving system for many years.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    4. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by lachlan76 · · Score: 1

      Well, unless you have a product which is either 100% effective or no-one wants to sue over, being able to sue over a failure, which WILL happen sooner or later makes it much harder for anything new to enter the industry.

    5. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by deblau · · Score: 1
      This really pisses me off. An aviation parachute is an optional safety device. I have a great idea, if you think the parachute is your problem, why not exercise your option and insist that your plane come with NO parachute? Because that would make you a dumbass.

      It's not the parachute that caused the plane crash. Rather, the parachute failed to prevent the plane from crashing. Learn the damn difference. Nine times out of ten, the actual cause of the crash is pilot error, like grandparent post already explained. It's actually much higher than nine out of ten, if you read the NTSB aircraft accident reports. It's usually a VFR pilot with "go fever", who risks flying in snow or at night over water to get back home in time so the ball & chain won't give them an earful. Or they thought they had enough gas in the tank, or they did but had to divert around bad weather or they were off course because they forgot to periodically reset their gyro compass. All mistakes that could have been easily avoided, had the pilot done the proper preflight, trip planning, and cockpit awareness routines. And none that have anything at all to do with optional safety devices.

      If you pull a bonehead maneuver that risks your life, be fucking grateful someone gave you a second chance. Don't sue them, or next time they won't help you. It's asshats like this that are the reason we need Good Samaritan laws in the first place.

      --
      This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
    6. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      As I said before, there's a buttload of safety things available, and the safety industry is huge. Your scenario doesn't really counteract that reality.

      The mythology is that one evil (but stupid) guy (who can't operate equipment competently) sues a company (usually phrased as 'picks on') that is owned by a single (and in the mythology depicted as a 'noble entrepreneur) person or small group of people.

      In reality, when the guy sues, he was wounded seriously by a product which can be demonstrated to have left the factory in a defective condition. And there's large quantities of similarly defective products out there. And the factory is owned by a company that measures profits in the billions of dollars a year. The guy that 'invented' the safety equipment makes 40K a year, and might be laid off any day now. The people who profit from the invention spend their days sipping tea, getting their poodles groomed, drinking martinis, and wondering which around-the-world cruise might be best to give the grandchildren for a "Lincoln's Birthday" present.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    7. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      Oh come on, CPR is covered by good samaritan laws. Plus, if you can go to Wal Mart and pick up a bucket-load of CPR, I will be impressed. (CPR is not a product).

      The parachute system isn't going to be sued out of existence, unless the owner of the company is stupid. By that I mean that every company should have sufficient liability insurance. If he does not, then he DESERVES to be out of business just for being stupid.

      So, that particular line of reasoning is bogus. Everyone knows that even in the most sue-happy area, medicine, lawsuits aren't the source of doctors going out of business. The problem there is predatory insurance companies.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    8. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      CPR is covered by good samaritan laws

      Which was a form of tort reform. Seems to have worked, hasn't it? People aren't afraid to give CPR anymore.

      By that I mean that every company should have sufficient liability insurance.

      And how is the insurance company supposed to underwrite a new safety device without charging an arm and a leg for it? How can a small business, strained by just the R&D and initial construction afford it?

      Everyone knows that even in the most sue-happy area, medicine, lawsuits aren't the source of doctors going out of business. The problem there is predatory insurance companies.

      Actually, it's a combination of both. I've heard that in at least one area the monthly malpractice premium for an obstetricion is $100,000 a month. The only reason the Doctor was still in practice was that the tail-end premium(to cover any late lawsuits, a potential until the last delivery hits 18) was over a million!

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    9. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      As Republicans mean tort reform, it wasn't. It was a reform that protects the individual, not the company. That's the big difference. Republicans will try to minimize that, because that's part of the smokescreen.

      And how is the insurance company supposed to underwrite a new safety device without charging an arm and a leg for it? How can a small business, strained by just the R&D and initial construction afford it?

      Before you ask how they can afford it, do some research to determine if that's even the problem. Tort is not the reason why insurance cost is high. I already explained that. Just some quick lookups would show that lawsuits are declining in numbers, by almost 10% in 10 years. The trend isn't short term either. For over 100 years lawsuits have been declining. The average award per successful lawsuit is also completely steady. About $30,000. But, insurance is climbing like a rocket. Simple logic will tell you that declining lawsuits and steady awards will not cause that. It must be greed, pure and simple. Insurance companies screwing us.

      So, quit trying to sell me your party line. I just simply know too much, having learned a long time ago how to use Google. I cannot be fooled so easily. Now, if you can come up with some GOOD arguments with REAL numbers, then we can have a decent argument about it. I'm sure both of us would enjoy that.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    10. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Firethorn · · Score: 1
      As I said before, there's a buttload of safety things available, and the safety industry is huge. Your scenario doesn't really counteract that reality.

      And how many of them were developed after, say, the '80s? How many of them are simply refinements of existing technologies? We're not saying that safety isn't a large industry, that existing safety devices don't have a place, but we're saying that existing liability laws are an obstacle to new safety devices reaching market.

      The mythology is that one evil (but stupid) guy (who can't operate equipment competently) sues a company (usually phrased as 'picks on') that is owned by a single (and in the mythology depicted as a 'noble entrepreneur) person or small group of people.

      Like the case of the guy who was sued for not putting the warning on the cardboard car sunshade that you're not to drive with it in place. Like the guy who made a living in my hometown suing businesses that ran out of items on sale for "mental anguish", but would settle for a reasonable 5-10 thousand dollars. Like the police who sued Ford because Ford refused to sell them more vehicles because they were suing them

      In reality, when the guy sues, he was wounded seriously by a product which can be demonstrated to have left the factory in a defective condition. And there's large quantities of similarly defective products out there. And the factory is owned by a company that measures profits in the billions of dollars a year. The guy that 'invented' the safety equipment makes 40K a year, and might be laid off any day now. The people who profit from the invention spend their days sipping tea, getting their poodles groomed, drinking martinis, and wondering which around-the-world cruise might be best to give the grandchildren for a "Lincoln's Birthday" present.


      Oh, so Ballistic Recovery Systems is a billion dollar company?
      BRS is a 24 year old $6.5 million Minnesota based manufacturer.

      Doesn't sound like they're that big. And what about the parent with his device that would open a parachute if the parachuter didn't pull the cord within a certain altitude? It didn't protect against a partial opening of the chute. That's a situation that warrents a redesign. It can certainly be argued that the inventer had a worthy idea, but failed to cover all scenarios. Heck, it didn't protect in a situation it wasn't designed to handle. It was a simple IF (altitude x) AND chute NOT DEPLOYED THEN DEPLOY(chute).

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    11. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      As Republicans mean tort reform, it wasn't. It was a reform that protects the individual, not the company. That's the big difference. Republicans will try to minimize that, because that's part of the smokescreen.

      Huh? I'm not a republican. When I say tort reform, what I mean is an acceptance that there are risks in the world, and that personal responsability should be a bigger part. Also, that a lawsuit should be somewhat harder to bring. It is a difficult process to tune.

      And you mention google. I tried some google searches, and the first few pages all mention various suits and tort reform. Found a site that talked about how Texas's tort reform slashed liability costs 30%. Could you refer me to a few sites?

      As for the average reward of $30,000, how did you get that figure? Did you also figure in another 60-70k for lawyer & court fees(both sides)? If the insurance companies are screwing us so much, why aren't the professionals forming their own insurance coops? Heck, I find the idea of insurance covering liability a bit disturbing, in the sense that it costs everybody, at fault and faultless, equally.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    12. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by dasunt · · Score: 1

      Sounds like another point for the need for tort reform.

      Sounds to me like its a need for someone to actually fight a lawsuit in court. Better yet, if you have money, carry an umbrella policy!

      Not only can you get $1,000,000 worth of insurance for relatively very little cost, when you get sued, its the insurance company's money on the line, and they'll fight the case for you. Even, God forbid, if it is your fault, a $1,000,000 tends to cover almost any civil settlement. If you are really paranoid, you can increase the coverage as well.

      I hear the words "Tort Reform" alot, and if its from a regular member of John Q. Public, its usually due to one of three things:

      1. Not realizing that yes, under US law, you can file a lawsuit for almost any reason. (Winning is another manner).
      2. Thinking that an urban legend is true (cruise control/RV story, for one).
      3. Hearing about a case that sounds frivilous and not investigating the facts (McDonald's hot coffee case).

      Tort reform does not seem to protect individuals. It protects businesses at the expense of individuals. I'm not anti-business, heck, I think that business does a lot of good, but tort reform is one of those things which is just plain wrong.

    13. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      Huh? I'm not a republican.

      I didn't say you were a Republican, I am saying that you are stating the Republican case, which is flawed.

      When I say tort reform, what I mean is an acceptance that there are risks in the world, and that personal responsability should be a bigger part.

      And I am saying that no matter how responsible a person is, they can get seriously hurt by a company acting irresponsibly. When you say that a lawsuit should be somewhat harder to bring, you're proposing either or both 1) changing the way our justice system works, which I would not do lightly and 2) raising the bar on lawsuits to a level where an individual would have difficulty bringing them, but a company with billions in resources would not notice the difference. Our courts are largely used by large companies suing each other anyway, so your proposed tort 'reform' would only hurt the little guy. That is a very standard Republican position.

      I got all the figures in my previous article from a Google search same as you. Look at http://uspolitics.about.com/od/electionissues/a/to rt_reform.htm for example.

      Figuring in 60-70K for a lawyer doesn't make sense when lawyers typically take their cut from the winnings. And court fees are not the same as lawyer's fees.

      If the insurance companies are screwing us so much, why aren't the professionals forming their own insurance coops?

      They are. 50 million Americans are covered by insurance companies wholly or partly owned by coops.

      Heck, I find the idea of insurance covering liability a bit disturbing, in the sense that it costs everybody, at fault and faultless, equally.

      Absolutely mind boggling. Do you understand the concept of insurance? This and the previous instances where you were ignorant of simple factual information easily found in Google make me really wonder.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    14. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      First paragraph: You're going to hinge an argument on refinement of an idea vs. a completely new idea? WEAK. Nothing can be split into the false dichotomy that you suggest. Everything is partially innovation, and partially adapting an old idea.

      Second paragraph: Thank you for making my case. I said that the Republicans just love to take that really unusual case and make it sound like it's the norm.

      Third paragraph: You're trying to win a general argument with a specific example. We're not really arguing about BRS now, we're arguing about Tort reform. And in this case, tort reform will definitely hurt BRS. BRS must have suppliers somewhere, and those suppliers might be much larger than BRS. When that rocket failed to go off, it might have been the fault of one of BRS' suppliers. They should be able to turn around and sue their suppliers in the same way they were sued, if they feel that their suppliers were responsible. Are you really trying to say that a $6.5 million dollar company should not be able to sue a billion dollar supplier that they bought a defective part from? I tell you something, If I were BRS and a large company caused damage to my business by selling me a defective part, I'd sue their assess off. This is no different than being an individual buying a defective part from BRS and wanting to sue their assess off.

      You have to think of ALL angles of the problem before you argue with me. Tort reform will make lawsuits single sided - favoring the large mega-companies over the small companies and individuals.

      (Don't assume I am anti-business. My arguments protect small business over large business. You seem to have an affinity for small business, so you should consider this.)

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    15. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      You have to think of ALL angles of the problem before you argue with me. Tort reform will make lawsuits single sided - favoring the large mega-companies over the small companies and individuals
      And I do. You didn't notice, but I structured my statements carefully. Done right, it would make it harder for corporations to sue too. I fully support the anti-SLAPP laws, for example.

      I guess what I think needs to happen is that lawsuits need to be avoided where possible, while still making the process cost less in the court system. Like I said, any adjustments would be difficult. I've chosen to devout my time to other issues for the most part.

      And as for passing the lawsuit buck, well, I'm sure that's happened before, and if it wasn't for the expense, it's not a bad idea.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    16. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      First: True, making a giant parachute to bring a whole plane down more or less intact is an evolution of old ideas. After all, the military has been dropping vehicles out of planes for years with big parachutes. But the idea of using a parachute to bring down a plane, and actually developing a rocket assisted parachute hooked to some sort of trigger, is new.

      Second paragraph: Thank you for making my case. I said that the Republicans just love to take that really unusual case and make it sound like it's the norm.
      I actually had three cases in there. The one was just the most outragous that I'd heard of lately.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    17. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by JuggleGeek · · Score: 1
      CPR is covered by good samaritan laws

      Which was a form of tort reform. Seems to have worked, hasn't it? People aren't afraid to give CPR anymore.

      I grew up in a small town, and joined the volunteer fire department early on. Naturally, we received various types of first aid training. But we also received warnings that the more training you had, the easier it is for the victim that you were helping to sue you.

      It seems a bit backwards, to me, but that's how it works. The most qualified people are the ones that are easiest to sue, and therefore the ones that have the most incentive to not get involved.

      Health care professionals do get some coverage under the good samaritan laws, but not as much as John Doe. And the general rule is that if you are well trained and happen across an accident, you should help only if the victim/patient is in a life threatening situation. Any aid you give them beyond that puts you at risk. To a certain extent, that applies to non-professionals, too.

      Sad but true.

    18. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by JuggleGeek · · Score: 1
      The truth is that the cost of liability drives companies out of business. Here, for instance, you can read about the oldest ladder company in the US going bankrupt. The cost of the liability was 29.4% of their sales. And this is a ladder company that had been around since 1855 and had _never_ lost a lawsuit. The extra cost involved in liability gets passed on to customers.

      My father worked for Sears and Robuck for many years. One day a guy came in wanting to look at table saws. He wanted to see one run. They don't allow that, for safety reasons. So he moved on. A bit later, he came back - without an employee with him, got an extension cord off the shelf, plugged it in, ran it to the table saw, and cut his small finger off. Sears settled out of court, because the cost of going to court was too high. Those costs get passed on to customers.

      Stupid liability laws hurt us all.

    19. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by JuggleGeek · · Score: 1
      (Grrrrr. Fogot to add the link. Reposting.) The truth is that the cost of liability drives companies out of business. Here, for instance, you can read about the oldest ladder company in the US going bankrupt. The cost of the liability was 29.4% of their sales. And this is a ladder company that had been around since 1855 and had _never_ lost a lawsuit. The extra cost involved in liability gets passed on to customers. And it eventually helped to drive the company out of business.

      My father worked for Sears and Robuck for many years. One day a guy came in wanting to look at table saws. He wanted to see one run. They don't allow that, for safety reasons. So he moved on. A bit later, he came back - without an employee with him, got an extension cord off the shelf, plugged it in, ran it to the table saw, and cut his small finger off. Sears settled out of court, because the cost of going to court was too high. Those costs get passed on to customers.

      Stupid liability laws hurt us all.

    20. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by PsiPsiStar · · Score: 1

      I can sue you for writing this post. It caused me 'mental anguish.' Doesn't mean I'd win...
      People can sue for ANYTHING.

      Trial by anecdote can be dangerous.
      It's like when a guy got off scott free from murdering Harvey Milk ( A gay polititian ) and several other people by claiming that he'd eaten too many twinkies. Obviously our justice system is flawed and we should get rid of it completly...

      --

      ___
      It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
    21. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      I don't see what the problem is. The ladder company is never described as being sued more than usual, and they never lost the lawsuit.

      But you eat up what the insurance company says. It's the height of gullability.

      1) The ladder company deserved to go out of business. Their competitors could pay the costs of doing business, but they couldn't. I don't know why you think some special law needs to be made to keep a single ladder company around. Obviously I can still buy a ladder, so what's the problem?

      2) The insurance companies are liars. They made billions of bad investments in the last decade, and THAT's the reason for the hike in prices. Their customers have to cover their bad judgement.

      3) You're gullable, because you believe what the insurance companies are shovelling.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    22. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      No, it's not new. Some guy tried it in 1919, and saved many planes. USE GOOGLE. How many times do I have to say it. I'm starting to work up to the type of treatment I reserve for people who just are too stupid to deal with. Next time you say something factually incorrect, I'm going to demonstrate.

      And, for the other part, the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    23. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      If you made a law that made it harder for both individuals and corporations to sue, you'd have achieved something that nobody else has been able to do.

      Given that you can't even use Google properly, I am inclined to think that you're wrong about that.

      And, I love lawsuits. They are a hammer that the individual person can use on people who trample them down. You'd take that away, and that's really an attack on my personal freedom, on the freedom of people who have few resources compared to a multinational company.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    24. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by falsified · · Score: 1

      That guy had so much of that bad-for-you sugar in his system that it was medically reasonable for him to be temporarily insane because it fucked with his nervous receptors. I know it sounds lame, but it's halfway credible. That, and intense homophobia (even in San Fran back then), kept him out of prison. There's a Straight Dope article about it that I don't feel like linking. (www.thestraightdope.com)

      --
      HI, MY NAME IS ISAAC.
    25. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by PsiPsiStar · · Score: 1

      The twinkie portion I don't believe. I think it's more a matter of "the defense portrayed him as such a nice all american guy that they jury bought the B.S." As you said, intense homophobia.

      Which was kindof my point, thought I didn't make it as explicitly as I should have. Occasionally, even good systems fail. Trial by anecdote can be used to attack such good systems, when a complete analysis would demonstrate that they're effective.

      To put it another way, imagine if someone were told about everything that you ever did wrong in your life, and only what you've done wrong. How would they react to you?

      --

      ___
      It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
    26. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by JuggleGeek · · Score: 1
      Obviously I can still buy a ladder, so what's the problem?

      The problem is that when you buy a ladder, a large portion of what you are paying is only necessary because of BS lawsuits. A company doesn't have to lose a suit for it to cost them money.

      Companies who follow your "We don't need insurance" plan will end up out of business after losing one lawsuit. They won't have the insurance company fighting for them, or helping with the costs of paying off that suit, and if they lose just one large suit, then their business is gone. So they can't just say "No, we're going to skip that" without risking their business.

      There are now no ladder comanies based in the US. The BS liability laws have raised their costs too far. And this happens in many other industries.

      You seem to think I'm defending the insurance companies, which simply isn't the case. I'm arguing against our present liability laws.

      Here's an article with some info and numbers on various industries.

    27. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Ah. Linkage is nice. According to this site, What was done in 1919 was the invention of the non-ripcord or freefall personal parachute. Not a plane level chute. Before that, skeptics thought that freefall would render a man unconcious.

      Too stupid to deal with? More like a different world view. Sure, I search google, it's my homepage. But just screaming "USE GOOGLE" doesn't help. Remember, my worldview is different, the keywords I select will be different. The sites I pull up will be too.

      Next time you say something factually incorrect, I'm going to demonstrate.
      I'll hold you to the same standard.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    28. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Julian352 · · Score: 1

      Somehow the only people who win with that hammer are either extemely rich or able to show a pretty/painful story against a faceless corporation. Neither of these cases really apply to being a a good weapon that's fair. Most of the lawsuits seem to come AFTER the fact of discovery by some scientist and usually governmental action rather than before. (ie. the usual examples of driving unsafe products off the road, where the lawsuit happens after recall for millions in class-action for "mental anguish")

    29. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1
      Nope, wrong one. There was an English company that attached whole parachutes to planes.

      And as for stupid, you're the one who gets the facts wrong consistently. You don't even seem to know what insurance is, or what the purpose of it is.

      As far as your worldview goes, from my standpoint it's based on ignorance. You have to get the facts correct to have a hope of impressing me.

      http://www.combat.ws/S4/MILTERMS/PARAHIST.HTM

      There you go. Learn something.

      1919 The "GUARDIAN ANGEL" emergency parachute system was manufactured by E.R. Cathrop Ltd, of London England. This system was used to safely lower the entire airplane, and was credited with saving many lives. In a 1996 prototype made by Ballistic Recovery Systems Inc (BRSI) for Cessna light airplanes, the FAA approved aircraft descent parachutes; and the Cirrus light plane became the first production model to have a built-in ballistic parachute for emergency descent.


      And I think that concludes my arguments, which completely stomped yours. At the basic level, I showed that many of your statements were factually incorrect, while you didn't show that any of mine were incorrect. I win. Have a nice day.
      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    30. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      As I've explained before, you are assuming that a large portion of what I pay is because of lawsuits.

      I say that that large portion is because of greedy insurance companies.

      FACT: lawsuits are declining in number.
      FACT: that decline has been over a century
      FACT: lawsuit awards have been constant. $30,000 average each. Citation already given.
      FACT: The sharp increase in insurance costs has been over the past 10 years.

      QUESTION: If all of the above is true, then why are we seeing a sharp rise in insurance costs recently, rather than
      seeing the high costs 100 years ago, followed by a steady decline as the lawsuits have decreased?

      Also, no ladder companies are based in the US, because at the heart of conservatism is CHEAP LABOR. That's why they are cheap labor conservatives. Labor in China is cheap, and that's why ladders are built there. Insurance is just another smokescreen for Republicans to remove a tool from the little guy, thereby decreasing his power even more, to make companies more profitable.

      I don't think you're defending insurance companies, I think you don't know what you're really doing. You're helping those who would oppress you.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    31. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      And I think that concludes my arguments, which completely stomped yours. At the basic level, I showed that many of your statements were factually incorrect, while you didn't show that any of mine were incorrect.

      Not really. But oh well. Thank you for providing a link. And you proved my argument for me. Two different people, both using google, get different results. It would be the same in a library.
      My search, initially "parachute history" didn't turn up your site in the first 3 pages. But I stand corrected.

      As for tort reform, you branched off into medical malpractice tort reform. I haven't even touched on that. Like I said, it's not a central issue of mine. Any modifications to tort needs much thinking on, that I admit to not having done. Also, there are all sorts of tort reform, from anti-SLAPP laws, good samaritan laws, to the limits on damages and such that you don't like. It just happens that I don't like limits either. Large rewards to have their place. After reading both sides, I just think that we need to shoot all the politicians and about half the remaining lawyers. It'd solve alot of problems.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    32. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by renoX · · Score: 1

      Skydivers are lucky that some manufacturers have a "tougher spin" or maybe it is because Cypress are in Germany?
      Anyway *any* skydiving safety device have exactly the same (unsolvable) problem..

    33. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      How stupid do you have to be to get all the facts wrong, yet think you are doing better in an argument?

      ANSWER: As stupid as Firethorn.

      It doesn't matter that you might come to some of the same conclusions that I do, if you come to them for the wrong reasons. All that does is make you a USEFUL idiot, but an idiot nevertheless.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    34. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by JuggleGeek · · Score: 1
      FACT: lawsuits are declining in number.
      FACT: that decline has been over a century
      FACT: lawsuit awards have been constant. $30,000 average each. Citation already given.
      FACT: The sharp increase in insurance costs has been over the past 10 years.

      So far, you haven't posted a link that verifies any of this (including the one you list as "Citation already given") and the link I posted in my last message shows completely different information.

      From that article :

      The substantial increase in liability is reflected in the extent of litigation. Between 1974 and 1989, product-liability lawsuits in the federal courts increased sixfold. The product-liability share of all federal civil litigation rose from 2 percent in 1975 to 6 percent in 1989. These increases cannot be accounted for by greater product riskiness. For the period 1977 to 1987, federal product-liability lawsuits increased by 400 percent, whereas total U.S. accident rates declined by 20 percent, motor vehicle accidents by 11 percent, work accident rates by 25 percent, and home accident rates by 26 percent.

      The price tag associated with liability suits is also substantial. Million-dollar liability awards have become increasingly common, even for less highly publicized accidents. The median verdict in product-liability cases doubled in nominal terms from 1980 to 1988. Whereas the median product-liability verdict was under $100,000 in 1971, it had risen to $405,000 in 1988, a 48 percent increase after adjustment for inflation.

      This disagrees with your "awards average $30,000" claim, and your "lawsuits are declining in number" claim. Your claims also do not fit with what I believe to be the truth. Without a link to evidence backing your statements up, I must consider them wrong.
    35. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by WNight · · Score: 1

      I don't know about tort reform specifically, but I think two changes could go a long way to taking away a company (or rich person)'s ability to sue you bankrupt, while still allowing for large settlements that a company can't shrug off.

      1) Scale damages between the parties. If A died because of B's negligence, B should be fined as much as B's life is worth. If B is a huge multi-national company, that may be a hundred million.

      1.1) Don't actually give all that money to A. You don't deserve to be richer just because a millionarie hit your husband with his car than you would be if a poor person hit your husband. Give the rest of the money to some appropriate charity or research project.

      2) Limit spending on court proceedings to what both parties can afford. I've heard a few suggestions on how to do this (both sides put in X% (they decide on this percentage) and then it's split, or whatever). In some way, make the court system fair by keeping on side from bringing in OJ's defense team against the other guy's public defender.

      We should also do something to keep companies like DirecTV from suing everyone with the intention of costing them $20K (minimum) in legal fees unless they "admit" their guilt. Something like fining DirecTV the same percentage that $20K is, of their victims worth. But, limiting the legal expenses they're allowed to spend would prevent that scenario from happening. (Unfortunately, without the charming scene of a mega-corp like DirecTV being shut down and auctioned off because they tried to ruin someone's life - maybe I'm just bitter about this one because I know (indirectly) a few guys who got the letters about the smart-card programmers. They bought them for their robotics club, but DirecTV didn't care at all.)

    36. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      If you want academic quality citations, get a PhD. If you want to consider my information wrong, then I can consider you an idiot.

      Either way, you win. Default on the argument by pendantry. Ant Fucker.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    37. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by JuggleGeek · · Score: 1
      You never gave so much as a single link to information verifying your claims, and have now dropped all attempts at reasonable conversation, and moved to nothing except nonsensical attacks.

      So much for reasonable conversation. I can only assume that the fact that you refuse to back any of your claims is because you know they are bullshit.

    38. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      The link was already given, as I said before, but you've already decided to believe your facts, and to get all pedantic. You must be a whole lot of fucking fun at a party.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    39. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by JuggleGeek · · Score: 1

      You never posted a link of any sort, even after I asked. You'll have to go troll someone else now - you aren't worth talking to, and just want to argue and cuss.

    40. Re:Product Liabilty distortion by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      I posted it BEFORE you asked, moron.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
  31. i would have both systems. by luther349 · · Score: 1

    these are not new my frend has a older bi-plane he added such a system to even thow he has never had to pull the lever its nice to have on to at least try to save most of your very expensiv airplane. but of course its only a oversized parashute and it can fail it happons so of course we can always bail if it failes using normal ones. but you guys are correct alot of small plane crashes are due to human error but even the most seasond pros can make a mastake.

  32. Slashdot behind the times, naah :-) by Alioth · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well, Cirrus have had these full airframe parachutes for at least 4 years, and Slashdot is only just picking up on the story!

    The problem with the parachutes is like going from a twin engine plane from a single - they aren't a panacea.

    At first glance, the uninitiated may think that the parachutes solve everything. But it's easy for the parachute to actually make things worse, not better. Why:

    1. You are no longer pilot in command once you deploy it. You go where the wind blows you. That might be an open field, but it also might be a school yard at playtime, a busy motorway/freeway (depending on what country you're in), the top of a tall building, the top of a tree, in power lines, the edge of a cliff etc. These are things a pilot can avoid if they are still flying the plane, even in a state of distress.
    2. The landing isn't exactly smooth. It is designed to let you walk away afterwards (even if you do have a bad back from the impact). Specificially, the aircraft's structure is used to absorb the impact.

    I'm a private pilot (single/multi engine, IFR - or in US FAA speak, ASMEL/IA) and if I were wealthy enough to own a Cirrus, the only time I'd use the chute is if the aicraft had suffered structural failure and was now uncontrollable. If it's still controllable, I'm still flying it.

  33. Not as great as it sounds by jemenake · · Score: 1

    One thing that I didn't see mentioned in the article is that, when they use the chute, the plane doesn't come wafting gently down. On the contrary, it comes down so hard that it causes significant damage to the aircraft; demolishing the landing gear and, sometimes, resulting in scrapping of the entire aircraft.

    Granted, this is better than dying in a crash, but some pilots think that you can just pull the chute any time you get in a little trouble... which can cause a lot of unnecessary scrapped aircraft.

  34. Server allready down by 0x000000 · · Score: 0

    Server is allready down. Anyone have a mirror?

    --
    cat /dev/null > .signature
  35. Seat belts! by dougmc · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Canadian rancher Albert Kolk's small plane banked uncontrollably in darkness over the Monashee mountains, then began spiraling toward earth. "Seat belts!" he barked to his teenage grandson and two young friends. Then he reached for a red lever in the cockpit.
    Sorry Albert, but you really should tell your teenage grandson to keep his seatbelt on, all the time. You never know what's going to happen ...

    Case in point: Flying with my dad in his Super Cub. We're flying along, then suddenly the plane lurches down 50-100 feet in a second or so. A second later, the plane lurches back up 50-100 feet or so.

    Had I not been wearing my seat belt, I'd probably have been hurt, possibly severely -- there's support braces right above my head, and I would have hit them *hard*.

    (It's not certain what happened, but presumably it was a vortex created by a jet airliner, possibly above us in the clouds. We never saw the plane that created it, however. It also did no damage to the plane (dad had it checked out after landing), but it certainly sent everything not strapped down flying.)

    1. Re:Seat belts! by lachlan76 · · Score: 1

      When did "Seatbelts!" mean take them off?

    2. Re:Seat belts! by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Sounds almost like a checklist. Sure, you and your passengers supposed to be wearing your seatbelt, but lets assume you have passengers and an emergency occurs.
      Are you going to assume your passangers still have their belts on, are you going to spend time visually checking to see that their belts are one, or are you going to yell "seatbelts" just to remind them to make sure?

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
  36. Hope those strings are fireproof... by gwoodrow · · Score: 1

    ...because it would kind of suck to be plummeting, and then sigh in relief as the plane is slowed by the parachute, only to have the strings catch fire from whatever caused the plane to start falling in the first place.

    1. Re:Hope those strings are fireproof... by Politburo · · Score: 1

      Strings? I would think it would be some sort of metal cable to withstand the forces of the chute potentially deploying at full throttle...

    2. Re:Hope those strings are fireproof... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where'd you read that? "Duh" Weekly?

  37. Oh yeah? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    You must be a Mac user.

  38. old news by pbjones · · Score: 1

    isn't this developement 5+ years old? I remember seeing video of this stuff at least 3 years ago.

    --
    There was an unknown error in the submission.
    1. Re:old news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They have been in business since approximately 1982

      Very old news.

  39. Save your love ones... by Dark+Coder · · Score: 1

    Can someone get this for the entire airline industry, please?

  40. Sikorsky! by HaloZero · · Score: 3, Funny

    from the ejection-seats-are-cooler-though dept.

    Only in helicopters!

    --
    Informatus Technologicus
    1. Re:Sikorsky! by Hortensia+Patel · · Score: 1

      Not sure whether you were going for Funny or Informative there, or whether I'm missing a reference (AcmeVaporWare?) but ejection seats for helicopters do exist. The rotor blades are separated first by explosive bolts, after which centrifugal force gets them out of the way pretty quickly, after which you eject as normal. (Presumably with rocket assist, since you're likely to be at very low altitude.)

  41. Parachute = safer? by GarrettZilla · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Background: I'm a private pilot who owns a 1946 Luscombe, a plane not considered to be a terribly "safe" airplane by many. But as with any machine, treat it with the respect it deserves and it will reward you. I prefer to program in assembly and C, as well.

    I'm not convinced that a "safer" airplane actually makes one safer. Twin engine airplanes have worse statistics for post-engine-failure accidents; the Ercoupe (a stall/spin-proof airplane which was about the only non-tailwheel plane of its time), was designed for a high level of safety but didn't have that great a record (and by the end of its life, had had all the safety features removed save the nosewheel); and the parachute-equipped Cirrus had a horrendous safety record early on.

    See, for example,
    http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/2004/sp0402.ht ml

    I think that reliance on safety features may tend to lead one into more unsafe behavior than one would otherwise engage in. I can say from personal observation at the AirVenture fly-in (http://www.airventure.org/) this summer that Cirrus corporate demo pilots pushed the safety envelope to the point of being grounded this past year.

    It's an old truism that the superior pilot relies on superior judgement to prevent the need of his superior skills. With very, very few exceptions, wings don't fall off airplanes until some time after the pilot makes a bad decision.

    --
    Ecce potestas casei!
    1. Re:Parachute = safer? by nettdata · · Score: 1

      Very, very true,

      I got my wings when I was 16, and my Dad, a bush pilot in the Canadian Arctic for years, told me the old but true saying: "There are old pilots, and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots".

      He's had the unfortunate experience of attending many funerals for his colleagues, the vast majority of which died as a result of poor judgement.

      --



      $0.02 (CDN)
    2. Re:Parachute = safer? by fbsderr0r · · Score: 1

      you mean scarecoupe

  42. rhetorical question... by BobWeiner · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...remember the indestructible black box they have in the cockpit? Why can't they make the whole plane outta that?

    --
    The PC Weenies: 11 Years of Online Tech 'Too
  43. nothing new here by fred911 · · Score: 1

    Hand glider pilots have been using these for years.

    RESERVE PARACHUTES

    --
    09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
  44. mod parent up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    how DOES ancient news, reported elsewhere DAYS ago and well-known before that, show up here on an erstwhile "bleeding edge, you read it here first" site?

    there's little purpose to /. if it isn't the 1st place to hear something good ...

  45. Not So Awesome by Kitten+Killer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Keep in mind these BRS are not designed for use when the engine fails. When the engine fails, you land the airplane as a glider. It'll be a heavy, short winged, inefficent glider, but it'll still fly. As a pilot, I spent hours and hours training to do this sort of thing.

    The purpose of BRS are when there is a structural failure or when the airplane has become uncontrolled, such as getting into a spin from which the pilot cannot recover. It's really a last ditch attempt when there is no other way of staying alive.

    Don't expect to just dust yourself off and walk away from a BRS landing either. The plane is going to be seriously bent, likely a total loss after the impact. Chances are you'll also have spinal injuries, but at least you'll be alive.

    Personally, I don't see much of a point of these systems. The likelihood of a structural failure or a complete loss of control is very rare. Anything else, a properly trained pilot can fly him/herself out of.

    Maybe someone with more experience than myself can chime in?

    Yes, IAALP (I am a licensed pilot). It's also the first time I've posted on slashdot. Please be gentle in modding.

    1. Re:Not So Awesome by lachlan76 · · Score: 1

      You can't glide forever.

    2. Re:Not So Awesome by wjsteele · · Score: 5, Informative

      Obviosly, you're not a pilot. With your engine out, you glide to the ground in a controlled decent... not an uncontrolled decent as with the BRS.

      If you loose your engine in a boat, does it sink??? No. If you loose your engine in a plane, it still flys.

      Case in point, I had a "catastrophic" engine failure in my Cessna 172 a while back. Engine gone... pieces left the aircraft. I landed on a road and turned into some guys driveway. He was pissed because I was blocking his drive. Never asked me how I was or what happened. When he started yelling, I pulled him over to my plane... pointed at the big hole in my cowling and all the oil running down the side of my plane. He suddenly got quiet.

      I had full control of the plane the entire time... there was a sudden Roll when the engine seized, but I could fly it no problem. Went through the standard saftey checklist... shut down fuel, electrics, picked my spot... got to best glide, tuned radio to 121.5. Delcared emergency... switched the box to 7700 and flew it down. It took me about 10 minutes to get down... I even circled my landing site and then dumped 40 degrees of flaps to get it down.

      Now, I see planes like the SR22 with these BRSs installed and hear stories about guys who hit turbulance and pull the cord. That's a costly mistake if there ever was one. I'm not going to pull a handle that turns my $250,000 plane into a pile of junk unless it's already junk.

      Lesson here... fly the plane if it can fly. A plane is nothing but a glider with an engine... if you loose the engine... it still flys just fine.

      Bill

      Bill

      --
      It's my Sig and you can't have it. Mine! All Mine!
    3. Re:Not So Awesome by lachlan76 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ok, I'm not a pilot, but wouldn't not all terrain be suitable for landing on? What happens if your engine fails over a few miles of that?

      Of course, the obvious solution would be to go around it before the engine fails. But I guess it depends where you live.

    4. Re:Not So Awesome by Bios_Hakr · · Score: 1

      I think the point is that when you spend upwards of $15k for an airplane, and extra $4k for insurance is not too high a demand.

      Most of these systems are installed on homebuilts and ultralights. While there is a system in place to inspect homebuilts at every step, I wonder how many of thoes are 'buddy-buddy wink nudge' inspections. Do you trust your welds with your life? Are you *absolutely* sure that the epoxy on the main spar was mixed at exactly the right proportions in exactly the right temprature and the exact humidity level called for?

      Even if you are sure, throw another $2k to $4k at it just in case...

      --
      I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
    5. Re:Not So Awesome by the+pickle · · Score: 4, Informative

      Personally, I don't see much of a point of these systems. The likelihood of a structural failure or a complete loss of control is very rare. Anything else, a properly trained pilot can fly him/herself out of.

      In the best case, sure.

      In reality, not true.

      Have a gander at the December 2004 Flying magazine (at least, I think that was the one) -- they had a really good article about BRS chute deployments and their contributions to safety, or lack thereof. The general conclusion was that they reduce the fatality rate by about 50% in loss-of-control accidents.

      (Commercial pilot/CFII/MEI/AGI/IGI)

      p

    6. Re:Not So Awesome by PW2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      These BRS systems may be useful when the pilot gets a heart attack and dies leaving the passengers in IFR weather.

      The one time I worked from home a few months ago, I saw this.

      I heard a plane doing flips which I didn't think much of at first as I grew up near Oshkosh, but then I realized that this was in downtown Atlanta in very bad weather. I tried to find the plane and shortly found it spiraling out of the clouds. It was a 6 seat twin engine airplane with two people on board (from later news reports). After about 5 seconds, I saw the fire-ball explosion.

      The BRS system or even better planning by the pilot (before it happened, the WX weather map showed a fast moving small strong cloud over this area which they should have noticed as they took off from an airport less than 20 miles away).

    7. Re:Not So Awesome by RollingThunder · · Score: 1

      However, a BRS will drop you down (more) vertically - making it possible to have a hard impact on land that's would only permit you to crash, gliding or no.

    8. Re:Not So Awesome by indy · · Score: 1
      While you might suffer spinal injuries from a BRS landing, the same can be said about bailing with a parachute. The parachutes that e.g. glider pilots use are not controllable and will not give you the kind of soft landing that a sports parachute will. You might suffer a broken leg or similar. Then there are situations where a BRS system does make sense.
      • Situations in which bailing is impossible due to accelerational or aerodynamic forces, like in a spiral dive.
      • To prevent the plane from crashing into buildings. Even if the BRS might not prevent this, it will certainly weaken the impact. This could even be used after bailing.
      • Situations in which bailing would take too long, like during take-off. I am specifically referring to the guy from my former gliding club who died about 1980 due to an misassembled aircraft. His elevator was configured in the wrong direction.
      While it is probably also true that using the money for additional training might be the better investment for an individual pilot, keep in mind that many planes are utilized by several pilots.
    9. Re:Not So Awesome by bluGill · · Score: 1

      Like what? There are roads all over. Clearings in forests. Remember when the engine dies on the plane the insurance company just bought the airplane, you goal is to save the people. (though if you can save the plane that is a good idea)

      The biggest danger is powerlines next to most roads. Roads with traffic are generally not far from back roads without. If there is traffic there is likely an airport not far away, which is an ideal situation (if you can reach it, which isn't a given).

      There are procedures for ditching a plane at sea. Been done, and enough people have survived to call it useful. (those in all the cases I'm aware of someone as died too)

      Emergencies are nothing to scoff at, but they aren't instant death.

    10. Re:Not So Awesome by the+pickle · · Score: 1

      Uh, that Baron crash out of PDK was NOT a result of the pilot having a heart attack.

      It was a result -- most likely -- of the pilot failing to prevent airspeed from degrading to Vmc after loss of an engine at about 1000' AGL.

      In other words, he didn't fly the airplane, which is ALWAYS rule #1. That aircraft was still flyable, but for some reason (poor training, pilot freaked out, momentary brain fart, whatever -- it doesn't matter; they're both dead), the pilot failed to do so.

      A chute wouldn't necessarily have saved these guys, and as PIC, unless my passengers know I'm *dead*, if one of them pulls a handle to activate such a system, I'm opening the door and throwing him out of the aircraft. I am the PIC, and if anyone makes the decision to pull the chute, it will be me, and NOT a passenger.

      p

    11. Re:Not So Awesome by Sockninja · · Score: 1

      Regardless of all that, you can't argue against the fact that you can't glide forever. Well I guess you could, but you'd be wrong.

    12. Re:Not So Awesome by wjsteele · · Score: 1

      Ever hear of Thermals? I've known several guys who have glided for many hours... and came down because they, um, had to go.

      I once glided from Richmond, Indiana to Blue Ash, Ohio - a distance of about 38 miles... but I wasn't in a Glider. I was in a certified aircraft (Diamond DA20 - a.k.a. "Katana.") I climbed to 10,000 feet out of Richmond and killed the engine. I then turned torwards Cincinnati. Over Blue Ash, I circled and slipped my way in to get it down. Never started it back up. That day, there were several thermals that I utilized to get my altitude back up. When I thought I was too low, I headed for a cloud. (Thermals are under them.) I even caught a nice little one in Hamilton, Ohio and almost busted CVG's Class B airspace.

      It's a real interesting flight when you cut the engine off... it's so quiet and peaceful.

      As a side note... they say the Prop on a plane is the equalivant to the Air Conditioner in a car... as long as it is spinning, you're fine. But... if it stops, you'll start to sweat.

      Bill

      --
      It's my Sig and you can't have it. Mine! All Mine!
    13. Re:Not So Awesome by lachlan76 · · Score: 1

      I live near a mountain range...I wouldn't think that it's a good place to ditch.

    14. Re:Not So Awesome by grmoc · · Score: 1

      My understanding is that the Cirrus SR20, SR22 (and perhaps others) is not FAA rated for spins (i.e. 'unapproved for spins'), and hence the manufacturer was required to put the parachute on the plane for spin recovery certification.

      http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/2003/sp0302. ht ml

    15. Re:Not So Awesome by fbsderr0r · · Score: 1

      "I am specifically referring to the guy from my former gliding club who died about 1980 due to an misassembled aircraft. His elevator was configured in the wrong direction." was his A&P smoking crack? its pretty obious when the elevator throw is backwards. I also blame the aircraft owner for getting in a hurry..

    16. Re:Not So Awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You meant to be accurate, but it is easy to misunderstand.
      You said if you loose your engine, you glide... The truth is "if your engine stops producing thrust you glide..."
      If you really loose your engine (this happens too many times), a plane with a front mounted engine will stall, then drop like a rock. NO CONTROL!

  46. Chutes are complete snake oil by SuperBanana · · Score: 1
    Most cases are pilot errors, ie. flying in a cloud without instruments.

    Parachutes are hailed as the save-all for pilots. Except:

    • Nobody has addressed issues where the pilot thinks nothing is wrong until he/she crashes. A fair number of cases are related to VFR pilots flying in IFR conditions- the Kennedy plane crash a few years ago into LI Sound is a perfect example. Often in such cases the pilot has not realized anything is wrong because he is disoriented. Same with inexperienced IFR pilots who do not follow the cardinal rule- never trust ONE instrument. Ok, the altimeter says 6,123 feet steady- does GPS agree? Simplified example, but often faulty equipment is not trusted, or worse, with VFR pilots, thought to be broken.
    • Nobody has addressed escape from a plane in water surrounded by a parachute 'the size of a house'
    • Nobody has addressed escape from a burning plane surrounded by a parachute 'the size of a house'
    • Parachutes do nothing for cases where the pilot does not realize he's about to hit something (terrain or another plane for example)
    • Parachutes do nothing for a plane in a spin, as the parachute gets tangled
    • No one has addressed issues with accidental deployment of the parachute- at cruising speed deploying the parachute could result in a lot of nasty problems.
    • Parachutes are useless below a certain altitude because they can't 'fill' before the plane smashes into the ground. A huge slew of accidents occur during landing or takeoff
    • The pilot is completely out of control of the direction of the plane, whereas a pilot gliding a plane that has run out of fuel has some choice in where the plane goes (glide ratios mean even at 5,000 feet, most planes can glide at LEAST few miles). What happens when the first single-engine plane parachutes into a school gymnasium roof and kills a couple hundred children, instead of making a mess of the soccer field? All because the pilot panicked and instead of gliding the plane, he just reached up and yanked the chute lever?

    Eh?

    1. Re:Chutes are complete snake oil by lachlan76 · · Score: 1

      Unless you plan on gliding straight down, you would not parachute to anywhere near the same that you would glide to.

    2. Re:Chutes are complete snake oil by Bishop · · Score: 1

      I agree with most of your points, but I believe two of the issues have been addressed. Part of the design critiria is that the parachute can be deployed in a spin, and at full throttle.

    3. Re:Chutes are complete snake oil by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1
      I thought the cardinal rule was "Finish your instrument qualification."

      Bruce

    4. Re:Chutes are complete snake oil by Moofie · · Score: 1

      Parachutes also don't protect you from having a cerebral hemhorrage, and they do a really lousy job on mildew and soap scum. They also don't seem to be very good at saving the whales.

      Anybody who thinks it's a save-all is a) stupid and b) incompetent. It's another tool that can save your life in certain circumstances.

      I would never, ever fly in a private aircraft with a pilot whose judgement I didn't trust completely.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    5. Re:Chutes are complete snake oil by 2A · · Score: 1

      Airbags don't help you if your car spontaneously combusts. Seatbelts don't help if you take them off in a panic whilst reaching for the break. Crash helmet doesn't help if your motorbike gets hit by a large asteroid.

      No one has addressed issues with accidental deployment of the parachute

      Confirm deploy parachute? Yes/No:
      y
      Invalid response, please enter Yes/No:
      yes Invalid response, please enter Yes/No:
      Yes
      Please enter the volume label of your parachute to continue:
      [ EMRG01 ]
      Verifying parachute...10%...20%...3*&#@%:!

  47. Damage after parachute landing by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    The damage depends on many factors, such as what the weight and speed of the plane, as well as the landing surface.

    The parachute is generally sized to drop the plane within the tolerance of the landing struts. Given a relativly soft & flat surface, the damage isn't bad. Of course, this depends on why you had to deploy the paracute in the first place.

    Given how expensive a plane is, it is a major plus to save it. Of course, it is also much easier to deploy the plane-chute then to try to climb out of one of those planes. It requires less time & altitude to deploy properly.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
  48. Hey... these would've been great... by NeoGeo64 · · Score: 0

    if the hijacked planes on 9/11 had them.

  49. Re:this is not the first post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To the greatest post in the word! Wooah-ooooooh

  50. Spiral Dive - Not A Flat Spin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Entering a flat spin during a cross-country flight sounds pretty suspicious. A little research turns up this article in which it is stated that there is radar data showing the plane in a spiral dive.

    A spiral dive is a high-speed descending turn which a typical result of loss of control due to disorientation in instrument conditions. It could also happen, as the article claims, when the plane is unbalanced (much more fuel in one wing than the other) and the autopilot reaches its control limits.

  51. Payne Stewart could have used one of these. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  52. Just so y'all know... by agraupe · · Score: 1

    The major developer of this technology, Cirrus, has been doing so for at least a year (unsure of dates), and there have been many successful deployments which have saved airframes and, possibly, lives. This isn't newsworthy at this point, although it might be interesting to those who haven't heard about it.

    1. Re:Just so y'all know... by jbdbdad · · Score: 1

      This technology has been around for almost 37 years - http://www.aviationsafetyresources.com/news/skydiv er.htm

    2. Re:Just so y'all know... by agraupe · · Score: 1

      I'm not surprised. I think it was Cirrus that made it mainstream by adding it as an option instead of an afterthought. Granted, the idea was fairly obvious after the parachute had become a proven technology.

  53. My Fail Safe Plan by BlakeLupa · · Score: 1

    We go back to the autogyro :-P

  54. A *must* have... by catdevnull · · Score: 1

    definitely worth th $16K--esp. with the higher risk for smaller planes. Of course, I'd want my mondo expensive-ass plane to survive, too. So this is much better solution than a ditch or crash landing.

    They might re-think the design of larger planes to just have escape modules--kinda like the way they redesigned the Shuttle.

    I'd also want hell if I were in ice water--or maybe the other way around, too.

    --

    I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
  55. Cirrus parachute was a certification dodge ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "I'm a private pilot (single/multi engine, IFR - or in US FAA speak, ASMEL/IA) and if I were wealthy enough to own a Cirrus, the only time I'd use the chute is if the aicraft had suffered structural failure and was now uncontrollable. If it's still controllable, I'm still flying it."

    I guess you haven't heard that the Cirrus has a problem with unrecoverable spin modes ...well, it does, and this has been the reason behind several Cirrus crashes. The FAA allowed the Cirrus to become certified ONLY because they had the BRS parachute.

    In short, it doesn't take structural failure to mean that the parachute might be your only way out.

    I'd rather have a Mooney or a 182 any day. And so would most pilots, it seems.

    1. Re:Cirrus parachute was a certification dodge ! by Alioth · · Score: 1

      I'll reply in the vain hope an AC re-reads threads he's posted to, but there are a few certified planes with unrecoverable spin modes (take the Cessna 310 for example). Certification for Normal category (IIRC) only demands the demonstration of a recovery from at most a single turn in a spin.

      I'd not have a Mooney or a 182 - give me a Bonanza any day. But given the money for a Cirrus, it'd have to be a serious contender.

  56. To be correct. by reality-bytes · · Score: 1



    To be absolutely correct, BRS has been supplying their system to Cirrus for several years (with several 'saves' too)

    --
    Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
  57. Boat bouyancy bags already exist ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    "f a similar idea could be used to save a sinking boat."

    This idea has BEEN reality for years. These "float bags" are deployed using CO2 canisters, and deploy INSIDE the boat,
    thus preventing water from occupying enough of the boat's interior to cause sinking.

    Next time you "wonder", why not use Google ? You'd be amazed what exists already.

    1. Re:Boat bouyancy bags already exist ... by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      Next time you "wonder", why not use Google ?

      I prefer Slashdot. The comments here are much more interesting. Google isn't interactive enough for me. I'm more interested in how much all of you might be aware of what was posted. Some people(mods) thought is must be really whack, but that's cool. I thought this was funnier.

      --
      What?
  58. Ultralite flyboys... by annisette · · Score: 1
    have used a parachute recovery back up for longer than cirrus.

    An add-on kit with a compressed gas charge to clear the parachute from airframe has been used for years and saved over a 1000 people from serious injury or death.

    --
    I eat my grapes at room temperature, cuz the cold ones hurt my teeth
  59. Oh sure, parachutes in the back of the plane... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What good is that when the mountains are up front????

    Pilot: "MY GOD, ALL BUT ONE OF OUR ENGINES JUST DIED ON US!!!"
    Co-Pilot: "Oh SHIT!! well, how far can that one engine take us???"
    Pilot: "All the way to the scene of the crash!!"

  60. plane parachute by Arnok · · Score: 0

    I know the guy whose parachute saved his plane..
    But i have news.. this happened like 6 months ago!
    and CNN just picked up on it ..

    If this would have happened in the States u would have heard about it then .. not 6 months later..
    to bad th Americans can't have a parachute when their "Monkey in the White hHouse" to save you other people from his blunders

  61. The point of 9/11 by tjstork · · Score: 1

    Is that now that if 5 arabs get onto a plane and announce they are taking it over, you assume that you are going to die, so you bull rush them and hope to kick their ass.

    --
    This is my sig.
  62. rear windshield? by thoughtlover · · Score: 1

    The parachutes are stored behind the rear seats in small planes and fired with a rocket through the rear windshield.

    What plane has a rear windshield? I hope there's fire extinguishers handy because that rocket may singe the back of your head!

    Oh yes, Happy Holiday Session to all Slashdotters :^) I hope Santa brought you all the techno-goodies you wanted!

    --
    No sig for you! Come back one year!
    1. Re:rear windshield? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What plane has a rear windshield?

      Oh, I don't know... maybe... almost all of them?

  63. Re:I'm not convinced (off topic reply?) by zygote · · Score: 1

    I've flown a lot for work -- as a passenger. I've never gave much thought to crashes or accident. I never really ever wondered why to I didn't "fear" flying and some people did.

    Lately, a little fear (getting old, now have kids, youthful invincibilty's been modded down...) had crept into my mind during turbulence or expected "events" and it took a why to figure out what really was behind this.

    The last part of Ann Elk's comment "...you are just a passenger with no control over where or how the plane will land" is EXACTLY it.

    Elk may not be willing to ever "pull the lever" but he better be believe we mere passengers will be reaching for that thing.

    --
    the future is here, it is just not evenly distributed - w. gibson
  64. But don't forget... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    FLY IT UNTIL EVERY PART STOPS MOVING

    But, I would agree with using it in cases of structural failure. You can always do a no-yoke landing (rudder/throttle/trim)

  65. maybe you don't understand what I mean by zogger · · Score: 1

    The inflatable rogallo wing IS the permanent wing. There is no hard fixed wing. They were making these things a few years back. There's no "additional" anything besides my idea of keeping the wing inflated with hot air from the drive engine as opposed to a permanent helium fill.

  66. only 81 people died aboard commercial airlines? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are they kidding me? Is this statistic true?

    A single commercial jet holds 100+ people and they are saying only 81 people died in 2003?

  67. Damages by Teclis · · Score: 1

    I live near Albert Kolk here in Southern Alberta and I didn't actually see Albert's plane, but I do personally know who he is. I heard that his plane had serious damage to the fuselage and that Albert figures that he can fix it and save the fuselage. I've had a chance to fly with him before, perhaps I should have taken it because I for some reason don't feel comfortable flying in a plane that he would have repaired. Although, if the repairs are successfull, then it would show that the system isn't so bad after all.

    --
    Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what's right. --Isaac Asimov
  68. God must be crazy II by alw53 · · Score: 1


    Plane parachutes have been around for awhile; there's an example in the movie "The Gods Must be Crazy II". For most small planes, unless the wings fall off, you would probably try to land normally because once you pop the chute, you are at the mercy of high-tension lines, windmills, etc. A Cesna 152 lands at around 55 MPH, so it's not too hard to walk away if you ditch it in a field.

  69. Is this new? by DanBeai · · Score: 1
    I can remember about ten or more years ago hearing about this concept. I want to say that I saw it first on Mr. Wizzard but I am not sure of that.

    Aside from that it sounds like a great idea. Only feasible in smaller comute planes due to the weight limitations of larger aircraft.

  70. What about... by vwjeff · · Score: 1

    having the passenger compartment on an airplane be a seperate "capsule." In case the plane loses all engines over the Atlantic, wing falls off, no fuel, etc. the passenger section of the plane could be ejected.

    As with most safety devices you must take into account the problems such devices could cause and result in a less reliable craft.

    This idea probally isn't practical (financial or technological). It's just something I have always had in the back of my mind.

  71. If the product was defective they should sue. by glrotate · · Score: 1

    The product didn't fire when he pulled the lever.

    It wasn't a case of extreme weather that the chute wasn't designed to handle, or getting shreded by flying engine parts. The pilot pulled the lever and it didn't do anything. Not cool. Then the company replaced a part in everybody's chute. That's tantamount to an admission of guilt. The put out a bunk product that didn't perform as advertized.

    Sue 'em!

  72. Re:I'm not convinced (off topic reply?) by Ann+Elk · · Score: 1
    Elk may not be willing to ever "pull the lever" but he better be believe we mere passengers will be reaching for that thing.

    This brings up another issue. The activation lever for this device damn well better be located such that it cannot be reached by nervous passengers.

  73. OK, OK by Jeppe+Salvesen · · Score: 1

    Let's add a few more valid reasons for deploying the chute:

    Engine failure and you cannot find a good enough place for an emergency landing
    Medical emergency

    and in the unlikely event that they can fit it onto a commercial airline - hijacking. Had those airplanes on 911 been fitted with some kind of emergency brake like this, the hijackers would have been limited to attempting to slaughter the people on board after the pilots had pulled that lever. Something to consider?

    (I am not a licensed pilot, by the way)

    --

    Stop the brainwash

  74. States that have passed tort reform by Aexia · · Score: 1

    have seen malpractice insurance rates increase at a *faster* rate than those without tort reform.

    "Tort reform" (as the GOP intends it) isn't a new idea. It's been tried before. It doesn't work. It failed. So why would it be a good idea on the national level?

  75. This is about 20 years old by Wingsy · · Score: 1

    20 years ago is when I had one bolted to my twin-engine Lazair ultralight. At the time there were 2 basic models available - one deployed by a rocket and one by an explosive charge. I opted for #2, which would sucessfully bring down an aircraft when deployed as low as 400 feet. I put this on my second plane after I lost my first one in a thunderstorm (yes, while flying it). Even way back then they had plans to make em a bigger and market to general aviation. Don't see why this is making the news today. And, this thing didn't make me feel safer or make me even more reckless than I already was. I was constantly in fear of the damn thing going off by itself.

    --
    If I didn't have absolutely NOTHING to do, I wouldn't be here.
  76. Just a few pennies worth of opinion by Thumper_SVX · · Score: 3, Informative

    Well, I know from reading the feedback that a lot of this has already been said, but some of this does deserve some reiteration... for which I will relay my opinions on the Cirrus/BRS systems.

    When I first heard about the BRS in Cirrus planes I was quite excited. This sounded like a brilliant idea and from all my reading seemed to work great. Of course, at this time I was not even a student pilot and the only Cirrus was the SR-20 (the SR-22 followed on a few months after I first started reading). I'd had an interest in flight for some time, that much is true... but I hadn't yet had the financial stability to take the plunge so to speak.

    So, leap forward to the present. I'm a PP-ASEL (in FAA speak... Private Pilot, Airplane Single Engine Land), and planning on doing my Instrument and Multi in the new year... finances allowing. So how has my opinion changed in that time? Well, quite a bit actually.

    1. The only time an airframe parachute makes sense is in the event of a structural failure of the aircraft. I can only see two times when this would come about; pilot error (doing aerobatics in an aircraft not built for it) or SEVERE turbulence... enough to snap the wings in a negative-G state (VERY hard to break the wings in a positive-G state on most GA aircraft). Either of these are PILOT ERROR INDUCED under most circumstances. At the first hint of severe turbulence, standard practice should be to slow the hell down and get to or preferably below maneuvring speed... at that speed the airfoil will stall before the aircraft will be severely damaged. Also ,if you're dumb enough to be doing barrel rolls in a plane not designed for it then you probably deserve to become an expensive lawn dart.

    2. A BRS "save" in a Cirrus occurred some time ago when a maintenance error led to the departure of the aileron from the airframe during flight. This was probably a valid use of the parachute in this case since it was a situation that would be less than perfect. HOWEVER... it IS possible to control a plane without ailerons. I've done it... in fact my instructor was VERY adamant that I should be able to fly the plane with only rudder, throttle and trim if it came down to it. I probably have several hours of time (under the IFR hood and visual) where I was flying "hands off the yoke" for some time. Nerve-racking... but doable. Even if I then lost the rudder I have at least once flown with elevator trim, throttle and the doors of the plane (sounds funny, but it works!) If you suffer this kind of multiple failure simultaneously then you probably should have landed after the first failure!

    3. An engine failure does not a parachute situation make. In fact I would avoid this where possible. Engines fail... fact of life in aviation. A plane with no engine WILL glide VERY well. During my training again I had a joke early on that by the time I reached my first cross country solo I had had more "engine failures" (simulated) than I had landings. This wasn't far from the truth. Through sheer repetition my instructor ingrained it in me to the point where it's almost a reaction now... loss of engine power equals ABCD... "Airspeed" (best glide, 65 knots in a 172), "Best Field" (locate my location to land), "Checklist" (check my fuel, mixture, carb heat, primer, fuel selector valve) and "Declare" (tune 121.5, declare an emergency, give location, dial 7700 on the transponder).

    I also have an advantage with the engine failures though... I live in St. Louis, MO where there's nearly always an airfield or a suitable corn field close by... but I'm ALWAYS conscious while flying of where my "best bets" are.

    4. An airframe parachute will only really help about 15% of annual accidents. This might be a low estimate, but most of my reading tells me that the most common accidents are things like controlled flight into terrain, VFR into IMC, and often bad pre-flight. One example of the latter was a recent accident here in STL where a Cessna 182 (or 210... not sure) went down after a go-around at a l

  77. Better idea by bluGill · · Score: 1

    It doesn't take long to learn how to tune the radio to the emergency channel and learn to land an airplane. Teach the wives to do this. It is much easier for an ambulance to meet you at an airport than someplace on the ground.

    I'm not talking about a nice smooth landing, I'm talking about a landing that you walk away from, but the plane doesn't fly without some major work. Actually if you just know how to tune the radio to the emergency channel there is often someone that can talk you through a landing even though you have never done it before. But if nobody knows there is a problem nobody will help.

  78. Dear Moderator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0