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Saturn V Preservation Efforts
PizzaFace writes "Saturn V: The rocket that took man to the moon remains a totem of its time and a magnificent memento of youthful superpower. Yet Slashdot reported a year ago on the neglect suffered by the Saturn V rockets that were not launched into space. Some progress is being made toward preserving these awesome vehicles. The Kennedy Space Center has already brought its Saturn in from the rain; Houston and Huntsville are putting shelters up this year and working on funding for restoration and more permanent indoor exhibits. These gigantic masterpieces of 20th century engineering deserve a visit - maybe a pilgrimage."
Since i really don't feel like registering for a WashPo account, does the article mention what type of funding they've been using?
Seems like it would be good for a company to donate money to help store these things. The Pepsi Saturn V storage facility, or something along those lines.
Yes, it sure is. Hopefully, they will build a museum for the US Army and Air Force and Navy as well.
The Saturns are absolutely incredible. Currently they are (have been) out in the open along with several other rockets, including Redstone and others from the early days of NASA. Several engines are also outside where one can walk around them. It was after a pilgrimage there that my now 13 year old announced that he wanted to become an aerospace engineer.
To those making the pilgrimage, a trip to Space Center, adjacent to the Johnson Space Center complex is also an absolute must do, especially if you have offspring.
We visited a few years ago and it's great to see it inside. An awesome display. If you are inspired by things mechanical and have never visited - go!
What strikes most people who stand next to it is how *big* it is. Yes it is big on the scale of a human. Maybe I'm weird, but what struck me was how *small* it is. It can go to the Moon and come back, yet it's smaller than a freight train.
Slashdot monitor for your Mozilla sidebar or Active Desktop.
Some corporations are already making contributions to this effort and are bidding for name rights. However, given the alternatives, i.e. tax payers shelling out even more money on a space related program, perhaps it's best that we preserve this historical monuments in anyway possible.
Admittedly, preserving the Saturn is worthwhile, but how about you keep the general public excited about space by doing something new, instead of putting the past into prettier showcases?
I was down in Houston last year around this time and the rocket is quite a sight to see. One thing that did strike me is how damaged it was. You could see right through it in some spots, paint was chipped and missing everywhere, missing parts, etc.
I do realize that there are plenty of other uses for the money, but is it right to only spend money on humanitarian efforts? In the ideal world we wouldn't need money and it wouldn't be an issue. But we all know that that doesn't work out on paper.
And here I am off-topic. The rockets are amazing to see and should be preserved.
Stop by Boondoggles on Saturdays to cheer for the Ken Valentino Band. Hat's off to the drummer.
-- i am jack's amusing sig file
NASA had several designs that were larger than the Saturn V that never made it into production. Most of them were called Nova something or other. One of them used 8 F1 motors in the first stage (compared to 5 for the Saturn V).
We all know the moon landing was a hoax. ;-)
(just a bit of morning humour)
The Saturn V's are *AWESOME*
Some 32 years ago, as a young teen, I went down to Huntsville to help out after a tornado had swept thru the town. We passed by NASA's center and saw the rocket standing there. Truly incredible.
I was wondering if they were still up. I may have to take another trip, this time to show my kids.
HexaByte - he's a square and a half!
As one of the many thousand people who work at Johnson Space Center, I have watched them enclose our Saturn V over the past few months. All of us are quite appalled.
Where I once came to work next to a giant reminder of NASA's past accomplishments (or rather, left for lunch by it, as I usually come in via the back gate), now I only see a big, white, ugly building. Where once tourists could stand back in awe as they took in the rocket's size, now they have to peer through windows at it.
A permanent building housing our Saturn V will surely protect it better from the elements... but it wrecks the whole reason for having it there in the first place.
A better preservation program would have three steps:
1. Commit the money needed to re-paint it once every 10 years.
2. Inspect it once a year for structural problems; repair those as they arise.
3. Do something worth doing and go someplace worth going, so that our most impressive accomplishment is not a 30 year old rocket.
... will they also include in the exhibit the Hollywood studio where they shot the lunar landing?
Just
If you want to see why the space program had the broad support in Congress and across the US, visit the first link to the Saturn V press kit and click on the Subcontractor link. There are dozens of large and small companies listed here in states across the nation. And this is just for the rocket. The rest of the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo program subcontractor list must go on for dozens of pages.
Sure the rocket is impressive, the most powerful machine every created.
But standing still its just a great big tube. Having seen the one at Kennedy, its just not that impressive as a static thing. When it was running then sure, what a beast.
But what about the tech that REALLY got man to the moon. Saturn V is just a big WWII rocket, the thing that made the difference was the IBM computing "power" that directed the thing.
I'd love to see the old mission control re-built with the original style technology, and simulate the information going into it. Imagine a school trip where you had to solve the same problem as for Apollo 13, or making the error over-ride decision of Apollo 11.
It wouldn't even really matter if it was just running on one PC behind the scene as long as you got the experience of how limited the power was.
Firing a rocket is grease monkey impressive. Getting it to hit the moon is the achievement.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
The Kennedy Space Flight Center museum is up and running. I visited it two weeks ago. The museum is supported by admission fees; no tax dollars are involved. The Saturn is in a complex that includes the original Apollo launch control center, and part of the tour is a recreation of the Apollo 8 launch, which was the first Saturn V lanuch. I took lots of pictures; this was the most powerful engine built, after all, though I think the Delta 4 Heavy might be more powerful.
Nyekulturniy... Proudly confusing readers and editors since 1981!
The Saturn V rockets deserved to be launched into space, not converted to lawn ornaments to become luxury housing for gnomes.
bkd
Germans, they were such bastards, but they made such bloody good rockets....
"All great things are simple & expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." --Churchill
You must mean this:
National Museum of the United States Air Force
And this:
The National Museum of the United States Army
And this:
Welcome to the Naval Historical Center
Neurowiz
First, the things we build can barely last a few decades without being destroyed by something as simple as weather.
Second, we're so short sited that we cannot see the value protecting our own history.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
We should be ultra utilitarian like the Ruskies. Let's stand them on end and make grain silos out of them.
Or we could use the Simpson's idea and schedule their last trips for the sun. Then send out invitations for Rosie O'Donnell, Tom Arnold, Pauly Shore, etc. to be our first emissaries to the sun.
It'd be better than letting any of them make another movie. *shudder*
Just make sure the equipment displayed therein is still operational, in case of a surprise Cylon attack.
Here's some inglorious snaps of the Kennedy Space Center preservation of the Saturn V that I did back in the "bad old days" of using only a 3MP digital.
To say the least, it is an awesome job that they did. In Huntsville, there are two Saturn V's, albeit one erect, the other on it's side. Both are outside. I have photos of those too, and will put them on my site tonight. Check back if you are interested.
All dominant civilizations do have a history of worshipping phalluses.
I went to Huntsville Space center with some of my buddies last year. There was a short fence around the Saturn V and a "Do not Cross" sign, but that definitely didn't stop us from climbing all over the rocket. I have some pretty great pictures of sitting on the top booster, waving down.
Now that I think about it, we did break off some pipes here and there in the process of climbing; I even took one of them with me. It smelled kind of funky on the inside, I wonder what chemicals it held while it was in use.
TerraIM - my pet AIM client project.
Actually, we spend most of our money being Socialists. Only when you remove all of the social programs from the budget do the military line items come to the fore.
Socialism for the rich, laissez-faire for the poor.
-kgj
-kgj
Just a note from a Huntsvillian: there are actually two Saturn V's on display in the Huntsville area. The one getting the big bucks for restoration is within Huntsville city limits on the grounds of the US Space and Rocket Center.
The other is actually at a state-owned rest stop on I-65, 20 or so miles north-west (as the crow flies) of Huntsville. It's at the welcome-center when crossing the Alabama/Tennessee border.
While the rocket on display at the USSRC may need restoration, the one at the rest-stop is in awful shape. Too bad the state is too cash-scrapped to even think about touching that one.
Oddly enough as I sit here and read this, I am in my Florida hotel. I just visited the KSC yesterday. I must say there facility for the Saturn V is impressive.
;)
After being treated to a movie and a simulated launch on the real (not mock) Launch Control hardware, you get to walk through the door and take in this enormous machine. I must say, the craft is pristine. Aside from a tiny bit of rust on the Escape Tower, the paint and metal body is perfect. A big piece of history preserved the way it should be.
I would assume that future plans for the other Saturn Vs would be similar though I don't know the difference in annual visitors between the other two centers and if it would be worth it to do such a grandiose thing for 2 more of them.
Perhaps they could just truck the other 2 to Florida and expand the exhibit?
Anyway, I just want to say, if you're a geek on vacation in Florida, Kennedy Space Center is pretty killer and a must-see.
I just wasted your mod points! HA!
For all those people who are thinking or posted, "what's the big deal?" or "The rocket is just a big tube with chemical propellent." Think again. I used to be one of these people.
Since I have children, pilgrimages to the Orlando area once every couple of years has become requisite because of a certain multi-national entertainment conglomerate that happens to be very good at marketing to children. On a recent trip, I insisted that we all go to the Kennedy Space Center for a visit while we were there. Everybody was not too enthusastic about losing an entire day at the theme parks to drive an hour and a half to the coast just to see a "bigger airport".
Once we got there, it was amazing how people's opinions changed, but the biggest hit of the day was the multimedia presentation and tour of the indoor Saturn V rocket. I was skeptical myself as to how entertaining this portion of the visit would be, but it was by-far the best part of the KSC tour. The way they have this thing mounted allows you to walk under the rocket. Also, at each of the separation joints, they separated the components so you can see the machinery and technology that made the rocket work. It was like walking into the garage where they keep one of the baddest vehicles know to man and someone opens the hood for your inspection.
I highly recommend the bus tour of the Kennedy Space Center if you are remotely close to it. It is one of the best ways to gain insight of how those things actually flew. (Not to mention all the other cool things you'll see like the Shuttle Launch Facillity and the ISS Fabrication Facillity.) As far as preservation of the other Saturn Vs, if they are trying to build something similar to what is in KSC, then I'm all for it.
"Ahhhh, best laid plans of mice and men... and Cookie Monster." -- Cookie Monster, Sesame Street
My favorite static rocketry exhibit is the Redstone Missle in Warren, NH which you can see a nice picture of at: http://www.geocities.com/redstone_mrbm/displays.ht m
Von Braun started making these souped-up V2's for the good ol' USofA. Gotta love it!
The last documentary I saw mentioned that the designs for them were destroyed as part of some deal in building the shuttle. In other words, NASA currently has no launch vehicles powerful enough to even send people to the moon, forget all the talk about Mars. Shuttles: Just say no to vehicle recycling.
vi? Who's that?
"If we build a space program from straw, the tax dollar gods will smile upon us..."
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
The one at the rest area is a Saturn 1B. The one standing up at the space and rocket center is a MODEL that they spent $5million on while letting the real one deteriorate. Now they find that the real one is in bad shape, they should have spent the money on it instead. Of course they also took their space lab and dropped it outside to deteriorate too.
Yeah, and we had a sitcom about a NAZI prison camp on network teevee!
My alma mater, California State University, Fresno, had was was supposed to be a Saturn V motor out in front of one of it's buildings. By the time I was there in 1990-1994 it was hidden in the midst of some low-traffic buildings.
:)
Supposedly it was moved because it looked too much like a missile engine and missiles are for war, and that's bad.
I remember taking my girlfriend at the time who was a reporter for the campus newspaper to go see it. She had no idea it was even there. Yeah, she dug it -- shows that geeks really can attract girls
It was in pretty bad shape out in the elements at all, but it was impressive. I often wonder if it's still there a decade later, or if the weeds have clamed it.
My wife and I took the tour again in 2000. On the bus ride from some point A to some point B, the driver informed us that if we looked to the right, we could see a real live American alligator in one of the drainage ditches alongside the road. It was amusing to watch this busload of out-of-town tourists all crowd to the one side of the bus to get a glimpse of a common alligator after they had just been to see those technological wonders.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
But what about the tech that REALLY got man to the moon. Saturn V is just a big WWII rocket, the thing that made the difference was the IBM computing "power" that directed the thing.
You might say the the monster SIC stage was of WWII vintage, though the F1 engines were gigantic and employed innovative turbomachinery and cooling. It was designed by Von Braun's V2 team. The SII and SIVB H2/O2 stages were truly revolutionary. They are the main reason why the Saturn V had such a huge payload mass fraction (3.8%). As you say, the IBM instrument and guidance programming were also of tremendous importance. There were several instances of 'engine out' during Apollo and all events were smartly handled by the IU.
an ill wind that blows no good
I used to live 1 hour south of Wright-Patterson AFB. I remember the old museum before they built the one in use now. But I loved going there every year just to see if they had added any new planes.
These days, even the chinese could send a man on the fucking moon if they wanted to. All WE can do (especially now that the shuttle is grounded) is hitch our fat arses a ride on rusian rockets...
Fucking pathetic.
Saturn VI. Then VII, then VIII.
Bigger and badder. Back to the moon, then Mars.
I was just at Kennedy this past week, and the restoration efforts on the Saturn V are impressive. It seems to be in absolutely mint condition, and the Apollo launch simulation is something EVERY space fan should check out.
Nicely said.
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
Um, whatever, you bitter fucknut asshat.
As I once lived about 30 miles from Hunstville, my family had memberships to the museum and made frequent trips. The exhibits are extraordinary, but a simple fac`t jumped out at me late in my time in the area.
In addition to the Saturn V's (which still capture my imagination) a Space Shuttle from the early days was on site (not space worthy.) At the time, NASA was so underfunded that they actually took away parts of (and perhaps the entire) booster rocket from the shuttle exhibit. It seems that NASA had just plain run out of money and needed the damn thing.
If we are forced to put display items back into service, just what does that say about our space program? In retrospect, climbing on the Columbia was sheer insanity. This was an accident waiting to happen.
befuddled (noun) 1. Unable to create a pithy sig
The other is actually at a state-owned rest stop on I-65, 20 or so miles north-west (as the crow flies) of Huntsville. It's at the welcome-center when crossing the Alabama/Tennessee border.
Because nothing says 'Deep South' like NASA technology...
:-)
I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
If you want to get a better idea of what it takes to restore a mighty Saturn V, I have on my website an article from the December 1996/ January 1997 issue of Smithsonian Air & Space Magazine an article that details the efforts involved in restoring the one in Florida.
The same company is being tapped for the Huntsville Saturn V and I would imagine the one in Texas, also.
The Google cache of the first page (my poor little website can't afford a Slashdotting) can be found here and the second page will load from my site, but at least I've cut my load in half.
People should read this.
And after you do, feel free to make a donation to help save the Saturn V Werner von Braun left the U.S. Space & Rocket Center
Don't you mean "point it and light it"?
Maybe that's why they lost the war!
"my now 13 year old announced that he wanted to become an aerospace engineer."
Better look into the job market first.
ATTENTION ALL GEEKS: Don't worry, he meant to say "Klingon attack". (He can't help it if Battlestar Galactica (1978) was a far superior show)
I saw on the next page your java app with the flip-flopping maple leaf. I'd like to use it for something, but I'm an idiot. How do I go about getting the coordinates for a shape?
The Vehicle Assembly Building is a sight too. I took the standard tour, and as the bus approached the building, the scale played tricks on my mind. I saw what looked like an ordinary cubish building not far ahead, and I figured we'd get there in half a minute. But the bus kept going, and going, and the building got bigger and bigger. The thing is freakin' huge! It was built to hold 4 Saturns fully assembled. The U.N. building could fit through each of its 4 doors. The Stars and Stripes are painted on the side, and each stripe is wider than the tour bus. The building is still used (for the shuttle), so preservation is not an issue.
I don't like the way the place has been Disneyfied -- I would've preferred something a little more raw. It's a pilgrimage, dammit, not a theme park! Though I guess it's unavoidable, given that half the theme parks in the U.S. are in that area. If it makes it more palatable for the kids, maybe that's a good thing.
You can see a BRAND NEW picture of the dark side! Low res image mirror here. --------- (kill me AFTER I've paid off my student loans)
I know that thing...I practically grew up in the shadows of the one at the Johnson Space Center. I've also seen the one that they put indoors at the Kennedy Space Center. Those things are impressive.
That said, I know the dilapadated state that the one in Clear Lake (man, I'm giving away my location: most people don't know that Johnson is in Clear Lake, not Houston) is in, and I can imagine that the one in Huntsville isn't in much better shape. It's rather sad to see this magnificent device that could take three people to the moon and return them safely in such a state.
I mean, I grew up imagining myself in the command module of that thing, on a revived moon mission (granted, they'd probably update some of the computer controls, but the general design philosophy would be exactly what one would need to make the return...wonder if the Chineese have thought about that). I'd love for my kids to be able to do the same thing, assuming that I make the decision to reproduce.
Now, if only they'd re-open most of Johnson Space Center to the public. After Disney took over tourist management, it's really not the same there. I remember the coolness that was Building 2 on that campus. It used to be the visitor's center. I also remember being able to eat in the same cafeteria with the engineers and astronauts training for their next missions, being able to walk into the gallery in building 31A at will except during an hour window during launch, during which it was filled with press (that's Mission Control for those not in the know), and just watching the ground control while they were doing their jobs. It was quite amazing, honestly. As a young child, it fueled my imagination more than what the current setup can do.
Haec merda tauri est. Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
Okay, call me a nitpicker but here's as good a place as any to ask people to use the word properly. I'm speaking of one of the most frequently improperly used words in colloquial English, "pilgrimmage." A pilgrimmage is a religious event with roots in '. . . wandering away from your home . . .' It's not the location you go to, its the trek that makes a pilgrimmage a religious event. Since visiting the Saturn V is not about the trek, but about the object of devotion, pilgrimmage is just plain the wrong word. ((I know, the media use it in this sense all the time, but do you always emulate the mainstream media??))
So long and thanks for all the fish . . . !!!
Although I never got to see a launch as a child, I was able to see the second stage up close and personal. My dad was director of test for the 2nd stage (working for North American Aviation, which became North American Rockwell, then finally Rockwell). A huge thrill of my young life was to see the booster crawl down Seal Beach blvd. via the large cat transporter down to the shipyard less than a mile away.
Little did I know I would follow in my dad's footsteps years later to work on the GPS satellites at a facility across the street, also with Rockwell International.
When I worked for Intergraph in the 80's, they threw a big employee party and flew all of us into Huntsville. The party was at the Space and Rocket Center where Alan Shepard gave a keynote and we all got to meet him and Wally Schirra closeup. We had the run of the place and the most breathtaking exhibit was the Saturn V. They had the telemetry ring inside the building so you could get really close and see all the detail. It was amazing. Another lasting memory was taking the bus to see the Saturn V engine test stand. They said when they tested those engines, it rattled windows miles away!
After two weeks in Orlando on business, I elected to spend my free day making the trip out to the Cape, rather than EPCOT. I knew that Houston's S-V was still sitting in the rain, but had forgotten that KSC has a copy, too. The kids will like the various exhibits at the Moon Rocket "shed", but just walking under the vehicle itself was worth the $32, as was a drive by of the VAB while en route on the tour bus. I found the size of the thing living up to my imagining, a pleasant surprise akin to seeing the Spruce Goose when it was in Long Beach.
Luke, help me take this mask off
I have seen the Saturn on display in Huntsville. Jeez what a monster. It's absolutely gigantic. They have a LOT of rockets on display there, all are standing up except for the Saturn, which is too friggin big, it's laying on it's side. The main engine nozzles are big enough to drive a Bus into.
Go see them if you ever get the chance!
I saw the one in Houston last year. In one of those very fortunate coincidences, just as I had walked from the top to the engines, and was wondering about the function of various features of the engines, a friend of mine who happens to work as an aerospace engineer called my cell phone. I had a great little mini-tour, "asking what about this thing?", and hearing about what it was and why it worked -- and some of it was just astonishing -- the critical pressures, forces and temperatures they work with.
I'm really glad to hear that these awsome works of technology will be brought indoors. I hope they put up really good descriptions of what you are seeing!
I agree with the original poster, seeing the Saturn V up close, in person, was the best thing I've ever done. I was in Florida for a couple weeks back in 1996, and on a whim, we took off from our hotel near Orlando and all the attractions there (got tired of waiting in lines) and headed off to KSC. The visitor areas were laid out and set up very nicely. The shuttle display was awesome. The memorial to all the people lost in various accidents was heartwrenching, especially after having witnessed the Challenger explode live on TV. My 5-y/o son loved it!! We even got to see a launch that day, though it was at the Air Force station to the north of KSC proper. The rumble was unlike anything I've ever heard/felt.
Go, see!
Here is a fascinating article describing a design for a heavy lift rocket based on the SaturnV form factor, but using a Gas Core Nuclear Reactor engine. Non-polluting and completely reusable, it would lift 1000 tons of cargo into orbit -- enough to take up a space hotel in one go -- and return with an equal amount of cargo to a powered landing. Compare that to the shuttle's 30-ton capacity. Interesting reading, even if you have a nuclear=evil filter. It would be cool to see those beautiful behemoths flying again.
Also way ahead of its time. But for something really interesting, take a lok at this guy who spent 4 years replicating it in his basement! http://starfish.osfn.org/AGCreplica/index_alt.html
I would recommend anyone here check out the Encyclopedia Astronautica. They have a page dedicated to NASA's design studies for future Saturn V variants: http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/saturnv.htm
And the Saturn V that would be used as a booster for an Orion-drive spacecraft: http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/orion.htm
Give a man fire, and you warm him for the night. Set a man on fire, and you warm him for the rest of his life.