Sharp Zaurus SL-C3000 Reviewed

Bill Kendrick writes "Sharp's hard-drive-packing SL-C3000 model Zaurus (available in the U.S. from Dynamism) has been reviewed by BargainPDA. They cover the differences between this one and earlier, similar models, and even go over some of the stuff interesting to Linux users."

Comments

BargainPDA

[koi88]

BargainPDA

I love my Zaurus C 760, but it's hardly a bargain... yet it's worth every cent I paid.

Re:BargainPDA

[LoaTao]

Yikes! $819 for a PDA? I'll just stick with my 12" PowerBook at that price point.

Re:BargainPDA

[Luke-Jr]

Zaurii aren't PDAs, they're handheld computers. There *is* a difference.

Re:BargainPDA

[ThinkOfaNumber]

it's hardly a bargain... yet it's worth every cent I paid.
That's my definition of a bargain...

Autonomy ?

[mirko]

A year ago I sold my SL-5500 because it couldn't stay on batteries for more than 1h30, how far has it improved, now ?

Re:Autonomy ?

[tchuladdiass]

The 5600 can more than double that if you can find one on ebay. The review says that the sl-c3000 lasted about 6 hours of article editing before getting a low-battery warning. My experience with my new zaurus 6000 unit seems to confirm this. However, using the wireless card will cut battery life in half -- or it used to on mine -- I've since adapted the diald program to automatically turn on & off the wireless card after 15 seconds of inactivity, which brings the battery life back up to normal.
Also, it all depends on how bright you make the display. I'm not sure about the c3000, but on the 6000 if I have the brightness set up all the way it hurts my eyes. I have to turn it down a couple of notches, unless I'm outdoors. Even then, the backlight is only needed if your in the shade (i.e., a lot of ambient light), but in direct sunlight the screen seems to be quiet readable.

Re:Autonomy ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have the 6000, LOVE IT! When you spend that much $$$ for a PDA/Computer, its awfully nice when it is relatively drop proof. The battery life is *awesome*, except when you use the built-in Wifi card it sucks the battery dry quickly. And the use of a mini-jack for headphones is horribly inconvenient for music player use.

Speedy little computer, runs old games well, plays music, does video, websurf, long battery life, linux OS. And the color graphics are SHARP.

Re:Autonomy ?

[brycenut]

Would you please share your diald modifications? I'd love to be able to extend the battery life & still use wireless.

but does it

[minus_273]

run linux? Seriously, anyone know if there is a siginificant difference in performance using the default installation and an open embedded build of linux?

Re:but does it

[Cyn]

Performance isn't the most important thing, by far, between ROMs. That said, I would say no there's not a particular performance change between ROMs. The important difference, is the usability.

An OpenZaurus installation (built by OE) would actually look pleasing and be functional. I have a c700 and a c760, and neither of them dares to touch the Sharp ROM.

Unless they've made leaps and bounds - the Sharp ROM addressbook is still beyond useless, not to mention a host of other lackings in all things. The only thing Sharp ROM has going for it above OZ is full hardware support (specifically, the ok/cancel buttons on the side of the device - and the 'jogwheel' equivalent).

However, if you just want to write text notes and read electronic books, sharprom should do you fine.

Re:but does it

[merlin_jim]

but does it run linux? Seriously, anyone know if there is a siginificant difference in performance using the default installation and an open embedded build of linux?

It already runs embedded linux... so I would guess that there is no significant difference between running linux and running linux on this box?

Re:but does it

[Lumpy]

how silly.

I have SEVERAL SL5500's in use and the addressbook is not that bad, and you also gloss over the fact that you can load a different addressbook app on it, but you lose all sync functionality.

also I do things with my Z's that palm and windows based Owners only dream of doing.

finally being able to beam contact information to PALM -or- windows pda users is awesome, the salespeople here have discovered that the built in apps are more than useable, the pocket Office compatability apps are extremely useful and the very large selection of free software for all the sharp SL pda's will significantly increase your useability.

We have barcode scanner cards in the CF slot on ours. The custom software for the sharp devices was 10X easier to write and interface to the master server than any PALM device. (I know I also wrote the app here for our old Palm+barcode scanner devices.)

coupled with the fact that Z's + the CF card are 1/5th the price of the insanely overpriced PALM or windowsCE or pocket PC units with barcode scanner built in I can keep 5 units in the shelf as emergency replacements when the other units get broken or lost.

I am looking to upgrade to the C700 series (you can get them for around $300.00 now) when we roll out these devices to all 20 salespeople here in the office.

so IF 5 sales people and 1 PHB has no problems with the sharp rom apps, I would simply guess you are simply jaded against it because it does not work theway YOU want it.

and they certianly are doing much more than reading electronic books, and writing text notes.

Re:but does it

[Cyn]

That's funny. I haven't had SharpROM loaded for quite some time, so I can't exactly relate the problem - but it was basically "default list view shows name and phone numbers, and there's no way to enter phone numbers". Essentially, it asked a bunch of DATING information (gender, birth date, job description, etc.), and had a button that opened a large comment field.

I could beam stuff over from my phone, and it populated the fields, but there was nowhere to change or view the information other than the list. I handed it around to several people showing this lacking, so if the way is there - it's either absent in the C700's early ROM, or it really isn't there.

I don't consider the inability to enter contact information into a contact application being jaded because it doesn't work the way I want - I consider it being realistic because it doesn't work, period.

My guess is, your sales force doesn't have any problem because they imported / beamed all their information, and they enter it elsewhere first. It's possible, however, that that was just a display bug or something strange in the early C700 Sharp ROM, and has since been fixed, in which case we're talking about completely different experiences - and the complaint is no longer valid.

That said - I don't know why you launched into a tirade attacking me as if I were saying one shouldn't get a Zaurus. We're on the same side of things hardware wise, trying to convert me to what I'm already using is a waste of both our time. I'll try the latest SharpROM for my C700 (since I obviously use the C760 over the C700 - fixed processor cache and more battery / ROM space) - fair enough?

Re:but does it

[SpammersAreScum]

Very odd. I have a C860 with stock Sharp ROM (v 1.40 JP), personally converted to English. I have no problem entering data (including phone numbers) into the default Address Book. The app, and the default calendar app, are OK, but I prefer the KDE PIM ports (KAddressbook and KOrganizer).

Re:but does it

[Anonymous Coward]

I have no idea why you think he was attacking you.

I Personally have yet to see a sharp rom where anyone had trouble entering all the information in to it. I have a 760 and used both the old and newer roms as well as the open rom and back tot he sharp rom and never had the problem with the PIM app.

also, you did say that it is worthless for anything but notes and reading, I am surprised he was as polite as he was considering you were pretty much trolling with that comment.

Re:but does it

[SenatorOrrinHatch]

Maybe not all that you'd want right out of the box. However my C750 has a FULL debian install on it, apt-get packages and everything. Mozilla, flash, realplayer, whatever. It takes a little work, but that's part of the fun right?

Re:but does it

[Locutus]

To edit a contact item:

1) Select/tap the contact to bring up the summary view.

2) Select/tap the edit icon in the upper right corner( just below the titlebar Help and Exit buttons ).

Geesh, that was hard. NOT. As a matter of fact, if you tapped the Help button( icon="?" ) from the summary view, you could have read how to edit your contacts there. This is in the owner manual on page 49 AND if you looked at the "Data" menu you'd see it has an "Edit" menu item. How many ways to edit contacts do you need? ;-)

LoB

Re:but does it

[idust]

It's not evident that you actually know what the OpenZaurus ROM is that the parent was referring to. See here.

Re:but does it

[Cyn]

Wow, it's almost like you didn't even read what I said at all!

You've been around /. a while I see. still, RTFA != RTFP. Give it a whirl sometime.

Re:but does it

[Locutus]

I read your post and just read it over a few times but I guess what you are talking about is out of my reach. I've used and developed for the Zaurus since the beta 5000 version came out but I must be a dummy and can't figure out what you are talking about... good luck.

LoB

Gotta be better than Palm

[doublem]

After all the hardware, software and support issues I've had with the Palm T2, I can't imagine a PDA that's worse.

I'm never buying another Palm Pilot again.

Re:Gotta be better than Palm

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm frustrated by Palm these days too, but I don't think your blog entry is justified.

Palm has said that the reason they don't support SDIO WiFi on the T2 is because the T2 doesn't feed enough power to the SD slot. The T3 does feed enough power and the T3 is supported. I don't know why you think it is just Palm being evil.

Palm isn't evil, but they are stupid. I really, really want to buy a Palm device that is just like a T2 but without the sliding feature, because I now have frequent problems with the digitizer on my T. (If I open the slider, I have to recalibrate the digitizer; then when I close the slider again, I have to recalibrate again! Annoying!) A Tungsten E is almost exactly what I want; but it doesn't have the "universal connector" so I cannot attach my Palm Modem to it, nor my Palm Power-to-Go battery sled, nor my Palm Ultra-Thin Keyboard. Here I bought these cool gadgets, and Palm has obsoleted them. Gee thanks.

I would probably have bought a T5 if it had been made with a universal connector, but instead Palm invented some wacky connector.

I don't want to carry something as giant as a Zaurus in my pocket. If and when I ever want something bigger than a PDA and smaller than a laptop, I'll get a clamshell Zaurus.

I think I'll stick with a Tungsten T or T2, but install the software that lets you write anywhere on the screen; with that, plus software that lets you bind a menu to one of the hard keys, you could use it forever without needing to slide open the slider. That will probably hold me until a Linux-based Palm device comes out.

Re:Gotta be better than Palm

[doublem]

The reason the T5 doesn't have a universal connector probably has more to do with wanting to sell more peripherals than anything else.

Let's not forget that Palm wants to sell hardware, and they're not above abusing the loyalty of their user base.

Fine, the T2 doesn't have the circuitry for Wi-Fi. Whose fault is that?

It doesn't matter if it was intentional or just negligent, the bottom line is, it's not up to par.

The quality of their hardware is going downhill fast, as you yourself can attest. Based on my experiences, I'd say their software is in the same kind of trouble.

The bottom line is, even ignoring my Wi-Fi frustrations, my experiences with Palm have been so terrible that I, a Linux Advocate who REALLY wanted to like something other than WinCE, have been driven screaming from Palm products never to buy another one again. When I have the finances to replace the unstable piece of crap, I'll do so with a product from another vendor.

When I sync I get this message: MemoryMgr.c, Line:3654, Free Handle

I have to use the reset button on the back of the Palm to clear the error, and when I do, I frequently get the following error when I try to sync: MemoryMgr.c Line:4613, Chunk under-locked

Hitting Reset Button on back will often, but not always, generate the following error message: halSnd.c, Line:1663, DSP Power On/Off Error

The Reset button on the screen with the error messages never works, I have to use the reset button on the back of the hand held.

I followed Palm's directions and uninstalled Documents to Go, but that doesn't really help.

Palm tech support has been painfully useless, never sending me anything other than canned responses, none of which work. They don't want to admit there's a real problem, and tend to just stop responding to me when I'm going back and fourth on tech issues.

I have to do at least one reset for every sync, sometimes as many as five or six, just to sync the hardware.

I've already contacted Palm tech support about this, and the only response I got was a series of canned replies that failed to resolve the issue.

Lack of WiFi frustrating

[chris09876]

It's too bad it doesn't come with built-in WiFi. That would really increase the usability of the device. WiFi is so prominent now, there should really be WiFi built into *everything*. (Yes, I want to be able to control my oven from work) :)

Re:Lack of WiFi frustrating

[Anonymous Coward]

It has a compact flash slot, so you can add 802.11 support with a $50 add on card. if you're spending that much on one of these, you can spend $50 on a card.

Re:Lack of WiFi frustrating

[SuperDJ]

If I only had that Wi-Fi breadmaker...

Re:Lack of WiFi frustrating

[chris09876]

But as the article pointed out, if you're using the CF slot for something else, you'd have to constantly swap it out

Re:Lack of WiFi frustrating

[tchuladdiass]

In previous zaurus models this was a concern, since the most likely other use for the CF slot was for a microdrive. But with the built in drive, you most likely aren't going to need to put anything else in that slot, other than maybe a bluetooth adapter (which you probabably won't use at the same time as wifi), or a gps card (which you would want to use with wifi). However, the device does have a usb master port, so you can always use a usb wifi/storage/gps device. But then you've got portability issues...

Re:Lack of WiFi frustrating

[bloggins02]

Yes, I want to be able to control my oven from work

The fire department called, they want your SSID.

Shipping?

[SuperDJ]

The Sharp Zaurus ships direct to you from Japan, arriving in about 3 business days. We do accept returns within 5 days. Well that gives me plenty of time to get it back in those 5 days, eh? Looks awesome, though. If I only wouldn't have bought that camera...Heh

Re:Shipping?

[Anonymous Coward]

Five days from when you get it.

Nice units, but...

[ackthpt]

Zaurus are nice units, but the battery life seems rather short. I picked up one of those SL 5600s off the home shopping thingamabob, with the $25 discount for first-time buyer, etc. Nice unit, but after using it for a few months the battery would hold a charge for noticibly shorter lenght of time.

Has anyone a recommendation on a better source of batteries for these puppies?

I'd have it with me at work, but it's run down again.

Re:Nice units, but...

[TrekCycling]

My suggestion would be to get a palm....

Seriously. I loved my Zaurus. Used it for over a year. But I just got sick of being a slave to the charger and having to constrain what I used it for during the day because of the battery life.

If you have to carry a battery charger with you (as I did) there's something wrong with your "PDA". So I went back to Palm. Simple, does the basic things I need it to do. Syncs with Linux.

Re:Nice units, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, the batteries do eventually hold a much smaller charge. But you can always get a new battery.
Google for "SL5600 battery" you will find
a lot of places sell it ~$80

Re:Nice units, but...

[webmind]

actually, I have an SL-6000L and using the thing with the build-in wireless + minimum backlit(still pretty bright) it lasts for about a big 3 hours... not using wireless... a lot more... another thing.. the PSU provides 2amps at 5volts. the device takes a maximum of 5.4watts (2.6 on battery) so an external battery pack is feasable.. I can recharge mine easy on a 4pack of NiMh 2300mAH penlites (AA).. haven't tried charing it twice.. but I hear that works.

Re:Nice units, but...

[Scud]

Well first off, I'm sure that your batteries don't hold a charge like they used to (which could be said of all of us).

You're stuck with the small Z battery on the 5500 so you really notice it (I had a 5500 and battery life was a pain for me too).

There are battery extender projects that you can check out at http://www.zaurususergroup.org/

Note the .org, things have changed recently.

And finally, you could always carry a spare. I do, and my 860 never runs out.

Why's this in the Linux-Corner?

[koi88]

I'm running BSD on my Zaurus, you insensitive clod!

Re:Why's this in the Linux-Corner?

[CDMA_Demo]

I have a SL-5500, and I'm tired of the bundled linux port that it came with. Is there a way of installing *BSD on this device? I know there is a depenguinator that does this for PCs....anyone tried it on a Zaurus?

Re:Why's this in the Linux-Corner?

[Triumph The Insult C]

installation instructions

Re:Why's this in the Linux-Corner?

[Homology]

installation instructions

The Zaurus port is very new, and not yet finished. For instance, X11 is on the TODO list.

More info about the Zaurus port here.

Re:Why's this in the Linux-Corner?

[clymere]

hows that working out for you? site says its very beta, no X11, etc. no 5500/5600 support either apparently.

Re:Why's this in the Linux-Corner?

[Khalek]

X11 is already working with wsfb.
See here and here.

Interesting, but need more details

[Anonymous Cowherd X]

Stuff interesting to Linux users:
<831 lines deleted>
c596f000 __insmod_p80211_O/lib/modules.rom/2.4.20/net/p8021 1.o_M4138646F_V132116[p80211]
c596f060 __insmod_p80211_S.text_L14776[p80211]
c5972a18 __insmod_p80211_S.rodata_L2884[p80211]
c59736fc __insmod_p80211_S.data_L228[p80211]
c59737e0 __insmod_p80211_S.bss_L20[p80211]
<359 lines deleted>

What, no raw memory dump?! As a Linux user who finds this interesting I am appalled!

And it runs Nethack

[doublem]

The sharp runs Nethack, but the Palm does not.

The project to port nethack to Palm dies. Seems no one could get it to work, since the Palm API is so limited.

QT Nethack on the Sharp Zaurus though, I hear that works.

Damn, I can't wait to have the cash to trade in this damn Palm for something that WORKS, even if it doesn't work very well.

Re:And it runs Nethack

[JabberWokky]

To be fair, the last update was four years ago, and the Palm API has advanced considerably since then (especially in ways that make it easier to port POSIX style programs to the very different PalmOS).

If you're interested in Moria, Larn and Rogue on Palm, you do have other options.

--
Evan

Re:And it runs Nethack

[doublem]

I've been playing iRouge for a while now. I still prefer Nethack, but iRouge will do.

Ironically, until the hardware problems began with my latest Palm Pilot, a T2, I was thinking of doing a Nethack -> Palm port as a project to learn Palm Pilot programming. Sadly, it looks like most of the API changes that would make such a port possible are for the Post 5.x versions of the Palm OS, which means I'd be developing a program I myself wouldn't be able to run.

Re:And it runs Nethack

[clymere]

this probably has something to do with the fact that palmos6 will be linux-based

Re:And it runs Nethack

[JabberWokky]

Yup. Until very very recently I was using a Palm IIIc (an *excellent* screen for eBook reading; blocky but crisp is surprisingly good). The API isn't so much limited as different, completely oriented toward a different method of computing. For traditional applications, it is neigh impossible, which makes porting nearly impossible without a major rewrite.

5.x+ paired with external memory gives you a much more traditional environment (assuming you're used to the Unix/DOS/Windows heritage, which accounts for... well, almost everybody now).

--
Evan

Re:And it runs Nethack

[kbranch]

Um... no.

First of all, there is no PalmOS 6 anymore. They renamed it to Cobalt.

Second, it's already been released and is very definitely not Linux based.

There are rumors of a future version being Linux based, but nothing solid so far.

Re:And it runs Nethack

[doublem]

So the question is, would it be possible to port Nethack to it?

Assuming Palm resolves the errors I'm getting now, I might be tempted to give such a port a try. It's been a couple years since I looked into Palm development. Any recommendations on what toolkits to start with, assuming a minimal to no cash investment?

Re:And it runs Nethack

[JabberWokky]

Remember how I said that, until recently I was using a Palm IIIc? I've yet to program for a recent Palm device, although I'm planning on getting the Treo 650 when TMobile releases it. I have, however, read through the documentation for 5.x and programmed for 3.5, so I think I can answer:

To 5.x+ with external memory? Yes. Not coincidently, you'll note that there are many ported and/or recent apps that have that same pair of requirements. External memory is a must to do fopen() or read() style file access. Internal memory appears to still be database records rather than any sort of file.

Note the first disclaimer, however. Palm dev on Linux with POSE/gcc is pretty simple for 3.5... I'd imagine that 5.x is similar, although I think the 5.x emulator is only available for Windows(?). Ask me in a month or two when I have my Treo.

--
Evan

Re:And it runs Nethack

[doublem]

Ask me in a month or two when I have my Treo.

Date: 3-20-2005
Subject: Re: Treo

@#!*#@_(
Sold it on ebay.

My copy of the Windows Powered Dev kit arrived a couple weeks ago. So far, it's going well.

>
>Date: 3-19-2005
>Subject: Treo
>
>So, how's your Palm Doorstop working these days?

Re:And it runs Nethack

[JabberWokky]

Heh. I have an iPaq... it was what I used to "replace" my Palm IIIc. I used it for a month, carried both for a month, and then went back to the Palm. I even tried Linux on the iPaq.

In my case, it was DateBk5 and the screen. That plus the "instant app jumping" feel of Palm. To a certain extent, Palm is the CLI of handheld interfaces - less sexy and a bit more terse, but in the hands of a skilled user, it can do the things you really need really well. If I need a laptop, I'll pull mine out. Short of that, I need something I can use for 5 second moments throughout the day. Palm excels at those really really short bursts of looking up or adding tiny bits of info.

--
Evan

Re:And it runs Nethack

[BenjyD]

There's been a file-streaming interface to palm main memory databases since 3.0 days, complete with open, create, seek etc. From the docs: "The File Streaming API is derived from the C programming language's stdio.h interface".

No 64Kb limit, no worrying about records: it's essentially a layer that sits on top of the traditional palmos databases. I can't really see there being much difference in difficulty in writing it for Palmos 5.0 or 3.5.

Re:And it runs Nethack

[doublem]

I agree. Even installing and uninstalling applications is fairly simple and straight forward.

When it works.

I'm just frustrated with the error messages when I try to do something like sync the damn thing.

Fortunately, Palm has finally given me the information to schedule a repair. Of course, if they try to charge ME for them to repair THEIR defective product, then I'll take them to small claims court for the cost of the device.

I can even understand an occasional defective device making it to a consumer, but their complete inability to give me any actual assistance with the problem despite several tech support requests is unacceptable. I'm pretty sure the damn thing is now out of warranty, just because it took them a couple of months and countless e-mails to admit there MIGHT be a hardware problem.

If you're not going to stand behind your product, then get out of business.

Re:And it runs Nethack

[clymere]

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=73 83

that is one yummy machine, but i want an oqo

[f()bz]

that new zaurus is tasty, but i'm holding out for an oqo with debian. that would be delicious... anyone working on porting the stylus drivers or the screen sizing with x11 (or any drivers for that matter) for the oqo to deb yet?

~fabienne

Re:that is one yummy machine, but i want an oqo

[iamacat]

that would be delicious

Don't eat OQO with Debian

Re:that is one yummy machine, but i want an oqo

[VdG]

I've given that some thought myself. At the moment I think I prefer the Sony Vaio U71 (or the 50 or 70 if I have a fit of thriftyness).

I had looked at the Zaurus and similar PDAs - Sony Clie and not much else, to be honest - as a replacement for my old Psion 3a, (still giving good service). However, my current view is that my cell 'phone gives me everything I really need in a pocket-sized device - mainly contact and calendar. A PDA can do a lot more - especially if it's running Linux or Windows rather than PalmOS - but it's just too small: can't see enough on the screen and fiddly to enter data.

The oqo and the Uxx are easily portable in any sort of bag yet have a display which is usefully larger: I can envisage actually reading a page of text. And they have better data entry, although the oqo really needs handwriting recognition: I can't understand why they haven't sorted that out.

Re:that is one yummy machine, but i want an oqo

[Anonymous Coward]

It has a digital pen. It says XP, though, not XP Tablet - presumably you can get some part of XP Tablet into the thing? How good is that for handwriting recognition?

Just...

[Anonymous Coward]

...Get a Treo already. What more could you want? OK, OK, higher resolution camera with a better lens, more memory, WiFi, internal hard drive... but it's getting pretty close to decent.

Great product

[Realistic_Dragon]

The Zaurus is a fantastic product. It's best use for me is on economy flights (no one has enough air miles to fly decently all the time) where the seat pitch is just too damn small for my powerbook.

It's got enough power and battery life for me to do a bit of coding (well code review, the keyboard is ok for edits but not writing huge chunks) and with a 4gb CF disk in it (I currently have one ripped from another device - but the new solution is nicer) more than enough movies to keep you going.

Mine manages ~10 hours or ~5 watching films, but spare batteries are pretty cheap at ~$100 each, and higher capacity than the default one on my model too.

If you do get one INSTALL VIM FOLDNIG EXTENSIONS! Or the same for emacs if you prefer. Folding editors make life easy on big screens, on a small screen they are invaluable.

doesn't run just linux ...

[Triumph The Insult C]

Dale Rahn and others are actively porting OpenBSD to this little machine

SyncML

[numbski]

That pretty much says it all.

I need my mobile device to support either imap or ssh (preferably both), and have it support SyncML for calandars, contacts...all the good stuff.

Without SyncML a mobile device is useless to me. :(

Re:SyncML

[spiritraveller]

I have a Nokia 3650 that has SyncML...

But so far, the ONLY thing I have found that can work with it is Mobical, which is a great site for saving your contacts.

I really want to be able to sync my contacts with Mozilla Address Book or Evolution. But so far, MS Outlook (running on my Windows laptop) is the only app I can sync with... and that's without using SyncML. The Nokia PC Suite Software (a Windows) app lets me sync with Outlook, and a few other legacy programs.

I look forward to the day that SyncML becomes the accepted standard, but right now very little seems to be compatible with it (or at least its implementation in the 3650).

I have already tried Sync4j and Multisync, and could neither get them to work, nor find anyone else who got one of them to work with a 3650 (or similar Symbian based phone). If you know of something that might work, I'm all ears.

Target audience?

[stratjakt]

This thing is neat-o, and all that, but for 819 bucks?

So it's, roughly, the size of a Nintendo DS? 4.9x3.4x1.0 inches.

I'm just wondering, for the price, what would make this a better buy than a really tiny laptop? I've seen ultra-mini laptops that aren't much more than 8" wide.

It's not small enough to fit in your pocket, but would you really want this zaurus, with it's HDD, bouncing around in your pocket?

Can this thing be a USB host, (Can't tell from TFA), so you could possibly plug in an external HDD or even a CD-R?

I guess what I'm wondering is, where's the line between a device like this, and a uber-small-footprint laptop?

Re:Target audience?

[Cwaig]

Yes, the SLC3000 has USB host port. Yes, you can plug in an external USB HDD (just like you can on an SL6000). You can even plug in a USB mouse and use that instead of a stylus.

Even less battery life...

[dteichman2]

because it has a HD.

Main differences

[Cyn]

The main differences between this model and the older clamshells can be summed up as such:

* 4gb internal hard drive (3.6gb formatted, 2.9 user)
* Less internal ROM - 16 instead of 32 or 64 (or 128 for c860? - don't quote me on that)
* USB Host (poorly supported)

As most would argue, given that it's a PDA (constantly mobile) and flash memory is pretty damned cheap - AND that the hard drive isn't exactly easily upgraded . . . the hard drive is mostly a non feature. (mostly - the sd driver is a bit of arse, and binary only - so 4 gigs always in your Zaurus with the CF still open does still have advantages... but it has moving parts - so it has disadvantages....)

So, the main feature of note over the older models is USB host. If you don't need that, you're likely better off enjoying the price cut on older models (where still available).

Still - it would be nice to have 4gigs + CF open without having to touch that stupid buggy binary SD driver.

Re:Main differences

[ikegami]

Flash has a very limited lifetime. For a computer's main memory, I'd prefer a hard drive over flash. Both my camera and my mp3 player use a hard drive, and I've had no problems.

Re:Main differences

[bungo]

Sorry, I can't agree with you. The main feature is the hard disk,
not the usb.

I've just instaled gcc on my c3000, a full uncompressed install,
abd next I'll be downloading some software and be compiling
on the c3000 itself.

I'v already installed alot of other prepackages software on to
the hard disk. If this was any other model, I would have had
to used CF cards - and anyway, my CF slot is occupied
by a d-link wireless card as I'm posting this from my c3000.

With around 2.5g free space, that's a massive amount of storage
which is always with you - far better than swapping SD and CF
cards.

btw, I got mine from www.trisoft.de, I have no conection to
then, but they gave me fanstatic service and ship to all Europe.

Re:Main differences

[Justin205]

The hard drive is the main difference.

The ROM in it (16) is about halfed from the ~32 in other models. But remember, this ROM is JUST for the ROM image, the base OS. Other models have internal flash memory (anywhere from 32-64, if I remember correctly) for user storage. The C3000 DOES NOT HAVE THIS. The hard drive is IN PLACE of that flash.

And the SL-6000 has USB host, so the C3000 is not the first Zaurus to have it.

Re:Main differences

[Cyn]

Yes, the SL-6000 has USB host - as well as builtin wifi - what's your point?

The main differences between this model and the older clamshells can be summed up as such:

From a clamshell user perspective, I am and was of the opinion that if one difference had to be noted, it would be the USB - for the aforementioned reasons (e.g. you can't reasonably get this with that). You could get a cf usb host adapter card previously, but then you're out your cf for wireless/etc. (although you could then use usb, we're draining more and more and more power as we go here).

I don't really equate 32/64mb of ROM with 16 ROM and 4gigs - the hard drive is indeed in place of the userspace ROM, but it's certainly not in place of it.

If I had to pick two main features, for clamshell users, then the hard drive would be the second. From a win-win / 'this is a good thing' / 'nobody should be bitching about this addition' standpoint - the usb host wins. People do have complaints and concerns (however unfounded or not) about hard drives in portable devices.

I personally have an Ipod and have no problems, so I'd have to say it's probably not much of a problem - but it does lots of lookahead/etc. tricks to ensure good battery life. A PDA has to spend battery life to do that, and it may not be useful (I doubt this tiny marvel of a drive has a meaningful on disk cache/buffer).

Put it this way: usb host, you slap a 5gig usb pendrive in, there's your hard drive space if you want it - cf still open, sd still open, no buggy sd driver. Now, the power requirements of that may, or may not, be reasonable - I can't say. I expect when usb pendrives are made, they show fairly little concern for power requirements.

Re:Main differences

[Cyn]

(ripped from another posts summary, but it was mine so it's fine - I give myself permission)

Put it this way: usb host, you slap a 5gig usb pendrive in, there's your hard drive space if you want it - cf still open, sd still open, no buggy sd driver.

Now, the power requirements of that may, or may not, be reasonable - I can't say. I expect when usb pendrives are made, they show fairly little concern for power requirements.

There's why I think USB host is a bigger feature.

Re:Main differences

[Justin205]

Sorry, I missed the part about "the older clamshells". I thought you were referring to the entire Zaurus line (in reference to the USB host, that is).

And I doubt pendrive makers would care much how power-hungry they are... They *are* meant to be used on desktop or notebook systems, which often have power to spare, as opposed to a PDA.

Re:Main differences

[fm6]

I've just instaled gcc on my c3000, a full uncompressed install, abd next I'll be downloading some software and be compiling on the c3000 itself.

So you want a development system in your pocket? Whatever turns you on. But that's not what most PDA users are looking for.

OpenBSD is currently developing support

[manifest37]

http://www.openbsd.org/zaurus.html

Re:OpenBSD is currently developing support

[Renegade334]

What about for the Dell Axim x50? I have been looking for a distro for mine. Nothing yet...

Its $100s cheaper at conics.net

[eGuy]

I've been looking to buy one and I found this page with froogle: http://conics.net/shp/pda/zaurus-sl-c700/index.htm l

Re:$820? Can we please stop advertising Ripoffism?

[stratjakt]

The japanese Amazon lists it at 74,000 yen, I think. I can't read japanese, but the number where the price should be is 74,000, which would be around 620 bucks, I believe.

After tax and shipping charges, I don't think the profit margins are that fat.

Frankly, though, I wish slashdot would stop linking to retailers period. If I want to buy one, I'll find a retailer myself. Other than that, they're basically just schilling what looks like a useless device. I could get a linux powered small footprint laptop for 850 bucks, that'd only be a few inches wider.

The amazon referral links in every book review need to stop to. They turn reviews into thinly veiled sales pitches (ever seen a bad slashdot book review? Neither have I).

Re:$820? Can we please stop advertising Ripoffism?

[fm6]

Not fair. They haven't just switched the keycaps, they westernized the OS. Plus they provide the English-speaking tech support you're not going to get from Taurus.

And you're really overestimating the markup. If you think you can manufacture a hard-drive based pocket computer for $200, why are you wasting your time on Slashdot?

too much money

[jcgf]

bleh. yet another device for people with too much money on their hands

Lack of Bluetooth frustrating

[fm6]

Bluetooth would be more to the point. WiFi only works if you're near a hotspot. With Bluetooth, you can network through your cell phone and control your oven from anwhere you can see a cell phone tower.

WiFi is fine for laptops. To use a laptop, you at least need a chair, and preferrably a table. Whoever provides you with these conveniences is probably going to go the extra 500 meters and give you a hotspot as well. But for a device you use while standing on a street corner, you want Bluetooth.

Re:$820? Can we please stop advertising Ripoffism?

[scragz]

... ever seen a bad slashdot book review? Neither have I ...

This one was pretty bad.

The pricing table a slight bit wrong?

[Gillious]

I just tried several places trying to find a sub-$200usd zaurus. They listed both the SL-5500 and SL-5600 as possibly being that low. I'd love to know where as I'd love to get one..

Pricing Pricing Pricing

[digitalgimpus]

When will companies realize: cool products are great, but they have a hard time selling.

For that money, I can build a pretty decent PC... buy a Mac Mini... get more than one iPod... by several hundred iTunes....

you get the idea. It's hard to justify.

Especially when there are quite a few Windows PDA's, and Palm OS PDA's available.

Hard to convince the consumer this is good.

When someone creates the PDA hardware cheap...

LINUX WILL FLY!

trust me on that. It's got all the potential. It's just the hardware is painfully expensive. So much so that nobody could justify the cost. But it's got a ton of potential.

Re:Pricing Pricing Pricing

[Cwaig]

Rubish - I've got a VTech Helio kicking around from a few years ago. Cost me £50 back then. Had a (for the time) superb CPU (80Mhz MIPS R3000). You could install Linux on it. It still bombed, even though it was cheap.

Move along...

Re:Pricing Pricing Pricing

[Anonymous Coward]

For that money, I can build a pretty decent PC... buy a Mac Mini...

Neither of which will fit in your pocket.

Why not Newton?

[Bodhammer]

I've posted a lot on this but it does seem to me that this hardware would be a very good start for an updated Apple Newton platform.

Just add Wi-fi, Inkwell, good syncing, and use the BSD port as the base OS.

I still want something smaller than a 12" powerbook that I can handwrite input.

Re:Why not Newton?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I will be giving a portion of the proceeds of these items to supporting Debian by donating money to the Debian project at Software in the Public Interest."

What portion?

Re:Why not Newton?

[Bodhammer]

A portion of the profits (~50%) when I make a profit. I still need about $25 to break even.

Did you want to buy something?

It's good they don't

[wiredog]

Not built in means easier upgrading, and you can get a wifi card for it.

Spent this morning looking at the zauruses, just put in a PO for an SL-C860.

Handwriting... vs typing

[dougnaka]

Can anyone really write 120+wpm?

I type 120+wpm and I probably write 15-30 wpm tops, and it's hardly legible... Who wants handwriting input for a good reason? I'd way rather have some kind of finger tracking non-corporeal natural keyboard.

Lack of usable keyboard frustrating

[Anonymous Coward]

I do not find slate-style PDAs useful in the least because they lack efficient means to input and manipulate useful data. I guess if you use one as an organizer, per the original intent, I can see the utility, but those basic functions are so simple that anything from wristwatches to telephones can accommodate them without needing a separate device. Considered as "Pocket PCs" they are clearly deficient, however, save for the few rare devices (e.g. Psions, Neos) with keyboards that the non-elfin can touch type at a fast rate on. Peripheral keyboards are another common answer, but as a portable (read: convenient) solution they fail. As far as keeping up with the Joneses goes, PDAs have been surpassed in fad-dom by post-PDA devices (e.g. Blackberry), portable gaming platforms and music players - IOW, things which serve specific needs.

I think the general-purpose "pocket PC" will evolve from the subnotebook computer, and that PDAs are something which filled a niche briefly but will be as well-remembered as Pogo Ball or Pet Rocks in the long run.

I want a Linux-based Palm clone

[fm6]

Coincidentally, I had just decided that my next PDA had to be Linux-based. I've been using Palms for years, and always liked them. But I'm not impressed with the latest PalmOne offerings, and they no longer have any real competition for dedicated Palm-based PDAs. (I don't want a smart phone or a game gadget.) Plus my current m515 is showing signs that PalmOne and PalmSource no longer know what they're doing.

First I got bit by the m5xx USB bug and had to buy a torx tool just to perform the necessary power cycle. (A hard reset doesn't erase the USB misconfiguration.) Then I discovered that the latest Palm Desktop upgrade had screwed up my Install conduit. After a frustrating hassle with PalmOne tech support (who used to be very good), I discovered that the only fix was to totally remove Palm Desktop (including registry entries!) and re-install. I still haven't got all my conduits back.

Time to look for alternatives. Alas, none of the English-language Linux PDA sites have been updated in a while. Nobody seems to be working on that stuff in this country. It appeared that my only option was to buy a Windows-based PDA and either live with a crappy OS or hack in Linux myself. Neither prospect appealled.

So this latest Dynamism offer caught my attention. But it has two things I absolutely don't want in a pocket device: a keyboard (I can't do thumb-and-peck, I need a stylus) and a hard drive (too big a point of failure; the 16-meg of solid-state storage in my m515 is already more data than I need to carry in my pocket).

But what's really discouraging is that this is only available from Dynamism. Nothing against them, but their speciality is selling Japanese stuff that nobody else thinks is worth selling in North America. Which means that all the talk we had a couple years ago about Linux-based PDAs was just talk. Too bad.

Re:I want a Linux-based Palm clone

[clymere]

next gen palms _will_ be linux based...palmos6.

Re:I want a Linux-based Palm clone

[Anonymous Coward]

had to buy a torx tool

Just a side-comment... all geeks have to buy a torx tool some day anyway. So you might as well have gotten it out of the way. I wouldn't hold this one thing against Palm.

Re:I want a Linux-based Palm clone

[fm6]

Possibly. But they'll be engineered, manufactured, and supported by the same people who have screwed up the current generation of Palms.

Re:I want a Linux-based Palm clone

[clymere]

not _possibly_. There was a palm thread here a few weeks back, and Bruce Perens posted several times confirming that it was true, and that he and others have been working with Palm very closely regarding various licensing issues. Not just a rumor. They have committed themselves to basing PalmOS6 on linux.

Re:I want a Linux-based Palm clone

[fm6]

As I said, I'm only looking at Linux PDAs because I'm fed up with Palm. So a Linux-based Palm lacks appeal.

Incomplete OS translation from Japanese to English

[DavonZ]

Please note that the Zaurus C3000 is shipped in a hybrid EnglishJapanese state to allow for the translation software to work. The ability to switch to a pure English translation is done by typing the following two commands into the terminal:

su
reconv

After which the unit will reboot and be in an English only mode (Japanese Inputs remove, Input switching removed, Larger fonts, etc...).

Typing the two commands again will revert the unit back into hybrid mode to allow for the translation software to work again.

As well, please see the following forum post at ZaurusUserGroup for more information about the C3000 and its Issues/Solutions:

http://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=8 84 6

Re:$820? Can we please stop advertising Ripoffism?

[Keith Russell]

Amazon.co.jp has the SL-C3000 listed for ¥74,800. At the latest US Dollar/Yen exchange rate, that's $729.01. Given the system's specs, that sounds like a fair price.

That leaves Dynamism $89.99 for:

• Per-unit tarriffs and shipping costs.
• Localization, including both translation and regression testing.
• Operating costs for a tech support department that, if they were just a grey-market box shifter, they wouldn't have to provide.

Only after all that do they get whatever profit the free market will bear.

Re:$820? Can we please stop advertising Ripoffism?

[Pollardito]

"ever seen a bad slashdot book review?" it depends if by "bad" you mean "poorly written"

Commuter of America, unite!

[Nexus7]

I want to point out that the Zaurus is a great for the Slashdot commuter. Yes, the CL3000 is expensive, but you can get almost the same machine (but different form factor and better screen) with an SL-6000. What do you get out of it?

Put in a bluetooth card and connect to the internet (no, not WAP, the whole damn internet) through your cell phone. For as little as $20 a month (depending on your cell provider), a wired handheld Linux machine, that can be used in the most cramped and bumpy bus/train ride. Edit code if you like, or surf the news without stuffing a newspaper in front of your co-passenger's faces.

Could you do this with a PocketPC? Not with a great 4" VGA (readable in bright light) screen unless you get the $650 HP model. And you'd still have to install Linux on it yourself.

Cheap?

[ad0gg]

but spare batteries are pretty cheap at ~$100 each

uhh $100 for a battery isn't cheap. Thats 1/4 the price of the PDA. Palm,pocketpc batteries are around $40. For $100 I can get a battery for a laptop.

Re:Cheap?

[arodland]

Thats 1/4 the price of the PDA.

Not when you're talking about one of these things. The SL-C3000 isn't much cheaper than a low-end laptop, at $819 from Dynamism.

Re:Cheap?

[muckdog]

agreed. They are a ton of places on the net or ebay where I have paid $15 for cell phone and camera Lithium-ion batteries and $50 for notebook batteries (all new but aftermarket). We've been getting scammed for years on batteries.

Re:$820? Can we please stop advertising Ripoffism?

[Quattro Vezina]

It's far more than $620.

Yen roughly converts into cents, so ¥74000 is about $740.00 USD. It's not an exact one-to-one conversion, but it's pretty close.

Wasted screen space?

[Richard_J_N]

Why is only about 70% of the lid used by the screen? It's such a huge waste, both top, and bottom. [left,right in landscape mode]. Especially since the most serious limiting factor with a PDA is screen space.

Ironic

[Aron S-T]

Is it only me, or do other people find it ironic that an $800+ portable computer is reviewed on BARGAINPDA?

"We do accept returns within 5 days"

[Anonymous Coward]

"We do accept returns within 5 days, and subject to a 15% restocking fee."

What? Is that their idea of good service?

The price alone is a bit high, but the return policy really sucks.

I'll stick to my SL-5600 for now...

A More Complete and International Vendor Survey

[wehe]

If you want to get a complete (hopefully) survey of vendors, which sell Linux PDAs (as well as notebooks and laptops), there is one at TuxMobil.

Companies have realized

[lilmouse]

When will companies realize: cool products are great, but they have a hard time selling.

Companies already have realized that. That's why they don't sell things like the Zaurus SL-C3000 in the US. US people spend their money on other toys (cars, lawnmowers, clothes, whatever) besides really slick electronics. The Japanease think these things are neat, and are willing to pay money for them.

--LWM

No Java

[Trejkaz]

Something they forgot to mention in the article was that the SL-C3000 doesn't include a Java runtime, either on the unit itself, or on the extras CD. I thought Java was supposed to be the big feature they were always going on about alongside Linux while marketing the earlier Zauri, and here they are removing it. WTF.

We don't need no stinking Sync

[rastin]

My only issue with my Zarus SL-5600 was that the sync software only interfaced with a windows box, which is a pretty hard to find piece of antiquated machinery. But add a wireless card, samba, perl and now I can use my disk as a coaster! Still haven't found a use for that cradle thingy.

Libretto, sigh...

[PhotoGuy]

While the Zaurus is indeed cool, and I haven't used one, from the article, my 1999 Toshiba Libretto seems to win in almost all categories.

These were sold for awhile around that time frame, never well marketed; the price was good (around $1K, I think), and the size was amazing (VHS-cassette sized).

800x480 display, 233mhz, 64M Ram, 4G hard drive, runs Win98, Win2000, Linux, two PCMCIA slots (so wifi, bluetooth, cd-rom, anything you want can be added), quite nice trackpoint style mouse next to the screen, small, but touch-typable keyboard, docking cradle included to hook to serial, parallel, external video.

These units were so amazing; I haven't seeen anything that matches what I would expect to see today along the same lines, except for some very high priced units. I wish Toshiba had kept up that tradition (they still make new models of libretto, but have upsized them, it's just not the same, and they're pricier).

Being able to take a laptop in my camera bag, and run Linux, Windows, firefox, cygwin, and so on, is so helpful. (This post was typed on one :).

(Some models of the Sony Picturebook were close to as interesting, with some nice features; but they've lost the trackpoint on newer models, for the far most costy [in terms of real estate] touchpad.)

In fact, there IS a java runtime.

[Ray Alloc]

Only unofficial, it seems : http://www.vidovic.org/augustin/pages/java_on_zaur us_sl_c3000/index.html

Add $180 for an iBook instead

[JPyObjC Dude]

The only things wrong with iBook over this is the cool flip screen and the size.

Although not as conveniently portable (yet) you can get an iMac Mini with a 12" lcd, key and mouse for about the same price.

When the price comes down, maybe it will be worth while taking a serious look.

Hmmmm.....

Alternative ROMs

[Anonymous Coward]

Any Zaurus owners who haven't checked out the alternative Zaurus distributions available should do so. They are much better than Sharp's ROM. Owners of the C-series Zaurii (c760, c860, etc) should check out pdaXrom and everyone else should look at OpenZaurus.

I said for the SL-C3000

[Trejkaz]

That's just installing the runtime from the SL-C860 onto an SL-C3000. The fact remains that it still doesn't ship with one, and will never get support for it.