Cooking With Linux

Georg Tobin writes "LinuxWorld open source editor Kevin Bedell conducts a very interesting interview with Michael Stutz, author of the new Linux Cookbook, 2nd Edition, on the language of the Linux command line, cookbooks, economics, and what applications you absolutely need Windows for."

Comments

Yep...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing like cooking with an Athlon running Linux

Re:Yep...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you mean "cooking an Athlon" running Linux.

Re:Yep...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you mean GNU/Linux.

Re:Yep...

[Mystic0]

Mod parent up. It's true, this book isn't about the Linux Kernel. It's about the GNU/Linux Operating System. I know some of you folks get tired of people in hearing that, but I really think that just calling it Linux is very misleading.

Re:Yep...

[FatBear]

Every since PCs got into the gigahertz range I've been waiting for someone to come out with a 2.54 GHz model with a wave guide and cooking cavity in the side. Sure would be handy...

Re:Yep...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've kept burritos warm using my hard drives, but I've yet to try out my Athlon XP for anything. Now I know how I can fully cook the meat and make sure I don't get food-poisoning: leaving my AMD-branded fan off the heatsink while compiling Slackware from scratch.

interesting?

[bdigit]

hardly? This was nothing more then a regular interview with questions that were almost as bad a highschool newsreporters. Interviewers need to learn to get down and dirty and ask more detailed interesting questions.

http://www.immigrantornot.com/

Re:interesting?

[Anonymous Coward]

The United States is no longer a world leader in art and culture. The most popular word to describe its citizens today is "consumer." Our cities are decaying and dangerous. The implications for the younger generation are terrifying. But with Linux, we could turn all of that around!

At least he has a vision *cough*

Re:interesting?

[robslimo]

• The United States is no longer a world leader in art and culture. The most popular word to describe its citizens today is "consumer." Our cities are decaying and dangerous. The implications for the younger generation are terrifying. But with Linux, we could turn all of that around!
  
  At least he has a vision *cough*
  

Between that bizarre view that an OS is the cure to societal ills and the assertion that there is absolutely no application that Windows might be required to implement, I hope the quality of the book doesn't suffer. I mean, the book sounds like a great resource (time to read some reviews) but the author sounds like he's just a few page faults from the loony bin.

Re:interesting?

[Anonymous Coward]

"This was nothing more then a regular interview with questions that were almost as bad a highschool newsreporters."

Like, asking the author of The Linux Cookbook what he still uses Windows for? That was a bit of an "is the pope Muslim?" question, although it was answered in good humour.

"'Scuse me Mr Gates, what applications do you still find Windows inadequate for and have to depend on your iMac?"

Re:interesting?

[sepluv]

I agree with the bit you quoted which has a lot of scientific backing (though you say he must be a "loony bin" becuase you disagree with him).

Anyway, I have a copy and it is a really good book to keep on your desk for those times that you want to get something done quickly without working it out for yourself.

The first edition is available on his WWW site.

Re:interesting?

[Anonymous Coward]

I could go for a nice Gnome stew... or maybe some delicious French Vies.

Re:interesting?

[dougTheRug]

The article really makes the guy sound like an idiot, saying that he's never used a single OS other than Slackware in the past 10 years, but that he's simultaneously an authority on how Linux compares with modern Windows? Would you trust his opinion on non Slackware distibutions even?

Overstatement

[vladd_rom]

>> Linux is loaded with applications, everything you need.

That doesn't seem true to me. There are lots of areas where Linux applications could use improvement. Photoshop for example (GIMP, while on the good track, is still way to go in this area).

I mainly agree with the points outlined, but not everything is perfect, and Linux still has some catch-up to do in some areas.

Re:Overstatement

[Anonymous Coward]

Then again, for most of us, we have no need of either photoshop or gimp. So neither one is a factor.

Re:Overstatement

[Anonymous Coward]

I mainly agree with the points outlined, but not everything is perfect, and Linux still has some catch-up to do in some areas.

Oh yeah, tell me about it. Have you ever tried to find a Ukrainian pr0n dialer for Linux? Or a good pop-up injector? How about a program that reports web usage to advertisers? It's almost impossible! I will admit, Linux does have some good key-loggers, but what good are key-loggers without a browser exploit to install them?

I'm sorry, but until the OSS community steps forward to fill these holes, Linux will never be ready for the desktop.

Re:Overstatement

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually linux doesn't contain any applications because it is only a kernel.

Re:Overstatement

[gl4ss]

well.. maybe the point is that linux distributions tend to be usable for usual home-work staright out of the box, with no need to buy photoshop & other software for 1000$ dollars.

if there was a PERFECT copyprotection system linux would gain instant popularity.

Re:Overstatement

[Anonymous Coward]

After years of reading slashdot I'm just kind of over that. When someone says "Linux applications" they usually mean "applications that will run on systems that use the Linux kernel." Since as you say it doesn't make sense otherwise, it's kind of silly to point it out don't you think?

Ah well, so much for the Tech Anal Squad. And hackers aren't crackers and http://foo.bar.com isn't really valid without a trailing slash. But I can't seem to get anyone to give a frick.

Re:Overstatement

[Anonymous Coward]

When someone says "Linux applications" they usually mean "applications that will run on systems that use the Linux kernel."

It also implies that the system has the libc-of-the-week installed along with the gui-toolkit-of-the-week. And whatever network transparent graphics server is all the rage. and a 3d-accelerated graphics card (because on-board integrated graphics chips are for losers, am i rite?).

I guess IHBT.

Re:Overstatement

[gmuslera]

See the list of bundled applications in the average Linux distribution as someone that just installed Windows (and/or don't want to spend a penny more) and that phrase will have a lot of sense.

Re:Overstatement

[JThundley]

For fuck's sake, The Gimp isn't supposed to be on par with Photoshop. It's almost like comparing mspaint to Photoshop.

Anyone else..

[Turn-X Alphonse]

Anyone else thinking that he over clocked his machine and got out a frying pan? I know students are cheap but thats a new low..

Stock Exchange Trading

[essence]

I haven't found a broker that has software that runs on linux, unless its a web based interface.

I use Market Maker from CMC Group for trading CFD's and FXCM Trading Station for forex trading. They are far superior to any web based app I've seen.

....but I use linux for everything else!!

Re:Stock Exchange Trading

[Anonymous Coward]

call ITGinc.com (Investment Technology Group)

They are Solaris based and IIRC linux now too.

posting anon due to previous relationship with mentioned company.

Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[AthenianGadfly]

Contrary to the article, Windows is good for more than viruses and freeze-ups. In certain specialized fields, Linux is still much more difficult (or impossible) to run. The examples I am most familiar with are animation (as far as I know, no Linux program exists to create Flash animation, and the only 3d animation program I'm aware of is Blender), professional audio (fun with ALSA, anyone?), and graphics (aside from the GIMP issue, what about vector graphics and publishing?).

Yes, some of this is because more manufacturers cater to Windows rather than Linux, but the fact remains that this makes Windows more suitable for some things. Linux is not inherently less capable of performing these functions, but the tools don't exist yet.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[Saven Marek]

> as far as I know, no Linux program exists to create Flash
> animation, and the only 3d animation program I'm aware of is
> Blender)

Have you looked at sodipodi ? or some of the other vector tools? they can all, be used to create vector based images to print as cels.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[ozmanjusri]

The examples I am most familiar with are animation (as far as I know, no Linux program exists to create Flash animation, and the only 3d animation program I'm aware of is Blender), professional audio (fun with ALSA, anyone?), and graphics (aside from the GIMP issue, what about vector graphics and publishing?).

Flash for Linux, DrawSWF, Spalah Flash, SWF Tools gAnim8, and OpenOffice all do swf with varying degrees of utility.

I won't even try to list the 3d tools - there are hundreds, from POVRay frontends to full-on commercial packages like Maya. I find it hard to believe anyone seriously involved with 3D animation could fail to be aware the role of Linux within the industry. It's Dreamworks, ILM, Disney, Weta and Pixar's main platform, for fuck's sake.

There are plenty of pro level audio tools for Linux too. Just have a look on Sourceforge or Freshmeat.

Look mate, not knowing something is not a problem, but parading your ignorance when a couple of minutes with google would have enlightened you is just FUD-spreading. Give it a break, please.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[NanoGator]

"no Linux program exists to create Flash animation, and the only 3d animation program I'm aware of is Blender) ... and graphics (aside from the GIMP issue, what about vector graphics and publishing?)."

For 3D, you could get XSI or Maya. Both are very high end apps. (You'll find them both at ILM, for example.) For 2D, if you're a professional, GIMP is a pain in the ass. I've heard WINE will run Photoshop, though. For vector... no idea.

If you're doing 3D or 2D professionally, now's not the right time to be running Linux. Believe me, I would have switched years ago if I could have. Fortunately, Windows (2000 or even XP anyway) isn't the piece of shit that Slashdot pretends it is. The main reason I want to switch to Linux isn't because of stability or security problems with Windows. (I'm not even having those problems.) Rather, I'm interested in its automation capabilities. Scripting's kinda fun. :P

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[heffrey]

Hey, the majority of folk here do just that on a regular basis - only it's peddling untruths about Windows. If you don't like people talking rot I suggest you go someplace else!

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[Anonymous Coward]

"Windows is good for more than viruses and freeze-ups."

True, but it is the market leader in those areas.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[NanoGator]

"If you're doing 3D or 2D professionally, now's not the right time to be running Linux."

Oh.. oops. I left a sentence out. Without it, it sounds like I'm doing a 180 here: I've been interested in XSI for a while now. While researching it, I ran across some complaints about XSI running under Linux. From what I understand (note: This is 3rd hand information, I haven't tried this) XSI's port to Linux didn't go over so well. I imagine Maya runs just fine, but XSI's been poo-poo'd quite a bit. However, if you really had to do 3D and you didn't need to worry about making 2D textures or compositing, you'd do alright with Linux in 3D.

Sorry, I was too quick to hit submit earlier.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[grumbel]

Sodipodis interface is one of the most ugly I have ever seen, an order of magnitude worse then Gimps ever was, I find it completly unusable. On the other side there is Inkscape, a fork of Sodipodi which has a quite lovly interface, nice to use an all. However from the feature point of view both are largly lacking, so is Sketch, yet another vector paint programm for Linux.

They are all ok for doing a bit of svg drawing and such, but for professional work they are pretty much unusable, worse then Gimp is compared to Photoshop. From the feature point of view they are somewhat inbetween CorelDraw3 and CorelDraw5, being somewhat better in some areas (anti-aliased rendering) and a lot worse in other (printing, colorseperation), those named CorelDraws have been released before 1995, world hasn't stand still till then. Another problem of Inkscape/Sodipodi seems to be that they are SVG editors and not ment as general purpose vector graphics editors, which means features not supported by SVG might have a harder turn to make it into the programm.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[Anonymous Coward]

blah.

Who cares?

What I use Linux for, what 90% of what people use computers for work out much much better on Linux if only they would take the time to learn how to use it.

It's a freakin tool. Linux is like fine wood carving knife. Solid yet flexible that can be made razor sharp or into a saw blade for whatever purpose you want to use Linux for.

Windows is like a electric turkey cutter in comparision. It works realy well at cutting slices of turkey, but that is about it.

Of course you have to realise that a PC is a PC and as long as the OS does it's job it can be made to do whatever you want, but Linux is still superior.

The only catch is that it takes effort. You install Debian, you mess around with it, you learn it and it will make you more productive. But most people would rather just throw money at somebody and take a nap.

I worked once at a place that was Window centric... Everybody was running around, one crisis after another. Techs were spending there lives working 20 hour days trying to get the next thing finished before the next crisis crops up. One thing after another.

All I could do is just stand there and shake my head. I know there is a better way, but it demands a higher level of professionalism, and most people don't want devote the effort.

It's like a guy with a spreadsheet program... He takes the numbers on a sheet of paper, copies them to the spreadsheet program in columns, then he breaks out the calculator and adds them up.

Then you, the geek, go: "oh, man there is a better way! here let me show you how to add up the columns correctly"

Then he gets all angry and goes "I don't have time to learn that! I am much to busy adding up these numbers! I have a life I need to get back too and I'll be here all weekend!"

That's what it's like to be a accomplished unix geek working in a windows enviroment.

That's what that guy was talking about when he was mentioning the degragation of american sociaty.

We used to work hard to accompish something. Creativity was utilized to create things, to build things.

What do we build? What do we create?

I want to make things. I want to create. I don't live for the next computer game, or the next ipod. The newet movie have no special attraction.

I want to have a living were I have a chance to accomplish and build something unique, not just patch for the next worm.

We need to be a nation of producers and creators. We need to work hard to build and contstruct, not just work nine to five for a paycheck so that we can buy the latet video game and then find a crack on IRC to get around the DRM to get it work.

Don't get me wrong.. I like to watch movies and play game, but being a consumer or antisipating the next new apple product is not central to my existance.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with you on all points but the audio. While there is some development going on, nothing really matches the quality of Cubase 3 or Logic Pro. And that's not to say that similar things can't be done with inferior software, but not with the same ease of use, quality, and precision.

Sourceforge and Freshmeat aren't good places to find pro quality software, generally.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[Anonymous Coward]

The best softsynth for linux is written by a crazy russian orthodox who advises against using it to make music that is "against god." The best MIDI sequencer for linux is written by an egomaniac who refuses to accept patches. The best sampler for linux is useless in a serious production environment.

All Linux audio software is practically useless for anything but tinkering, which might explain why all of the music created with Linux is "experimental." These people are no-talent hacks who are more interested in playing with their little GNU tools than making music or getting any work done.

Nothing available for Linux comes close to software like Protools and Logic. I suspect you are talking out of your ass.

--anonymous producer (IHBT)

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[ozmanjusri]

While there is some development going on, nothing really matches the quality of Cubase 3 or Logic Pro. And that's not to say that similar things can't be done with inferior software, but not with the same ease of use, quality, and precision.

It depends on your experiences I suppose, but Wired, Ardour, and Rosegarden do well enough for me when I'm using Linux. Audio is mostly a side-issue for my work, and I never really took to Cubase for some reason, so its not something I miss.

There's a fairly comprehensive list of Linux audio here http://linux-sound.org/one-page.html if anyone's interested.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[Tim C]

all do swf with varying degrees of utility.

So, do any of them truly compare to the Windows Flash tools? "Varying degrees of utility" covers a multitude of sins, after all; a little more detail would be appreciated.

I find it hard to believe anyone seriously involved with 3D animation could fail to be aware the role of Linux within the industry. It's Dreamworks, ILM, Disney, Weta and Pixar's main platform, for fuck's sake.

And how many of those places you list use off the shelf software of the type mere mortals like you and I can ever hope to use? I'm sure renderman and its ilk are truly supurb pieces of software, but at hundreds of thousands of dollars a licence, they may as well not exist from my point of view.

There are plenty of pro level audio tools for Linux too. Just have a look on Sourceforge or Freshmeat.

In my experience, "pro level" and sf (especially) and fm do not generally mix. For every high-quality, usable project there are a dozen or more that are a complete waste of time. Telling someone "just look on sourceforge" is next to useless without supplying a project name or two.

parading your ignorance when a couple of minutes with google would have enlightened you is just FUD-spreading

As far as I can see, all you've really done is said "no, there's plenty of software!!!". With the exception of the Flash stuff (and even there you're hazy), you've really not given much in the way of definite information. Just some hand-wavy "lots of people use it for that" type stuff.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[Anonymous Coward]

> So, do any of them truly compare to the Windows Flash tools?

Flash for Linux and Flash for Windows is the same bloody tool, so ofcourse it compares. For the rest, have you ever tried them? Try first, then judge. Openoffice for instance, is also available for Windows.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[TheSunborn]

It's a shame that DrawSWF, Spalah Flash, SWF Tools and gAnim8 are all alpha version software which can't be used for anything except toy projects.

And yes I looked because I need som software that can be used to develop flash files in linux. Including support for flash script.

But none of the tools you mentioned can really be used for anything usefull.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure renderman and its ilk are truly supurb pieces of software, but at hundreds of thousands of dollars a licence, they may as well not exist from my point of view.

Right, because everyone on windows who uses Maya paid for it...

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[agraupe]

I would say this: if you need these things, buy a Mac. For this sort of thing, macs are down right affordable. I have heard some complaints about them, but overall the creative types seem to like them and use them. All the software you need is there, it's pretty, and it is loosely based on UNIX. I think that Linux should stop feeling threatened by Apple/OS X and act more like multiplatform OS X-lite (now, don't flame me, I'm a linux user, and it hurts to admit that Linux isn't perfect). Macs are close enough that we should hesitate to point people to them if they say, "linux doesn't have specialized piece of software X" because Mac, in many cases, will. Unless it's a game ;)

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[Anonymous Coward]

I use Linux exclusively at home. However at work I use Logic Audio (OS X), there is nothing even close to Logic Audio on Linux. I use Rosegarden with Wine/VST on a regular basis but it is no Logic Audio. It is like comparing a Ford Fiesta to a Ferrari, you get what you pay for.

I would be willing to drop at least $1000 on a Logic Audio quality package if there was one for Linux, but as far as I can tell there isn't. There is a reason companies charge that much for software, and as brilliant as the people who develop this software for Linux are, they can't compete with companies that spend thousands and thousands on R&D.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not the original poster but dude you really don't know what you're talking about. I've used both Windows and Linux flash tools and whilst the Flash renderers might do the same job on both platforms the Flash publishing utilities certainly do not. You don't know what you're talking about here.

And the "Pro-Audio" stuff isn't up to scratch just yet - it's very close but Cubase/Logic/ProTools/Live just work and have loads of add-ons/extensions. I'm guessing you're one of these people who reads about a pro-app for linux, sees a few screen shots and figures that baby is in the bag - nothing could be further from the truth.

Linux is just a tool - it's not the freakin' be all and end all of operating systems, open source apps are not always better than their closed source cousins.

And in case you're wondering - I use both Linux and Windows everyday.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[njyoder]

MOD this comment down, seriously. Just because software is available, doesn't mean it's good. I can come up with plenty examples of lower quality software. If anyone is spreading FUD, it's this irrational zealot here. As has been pointed out, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about--people have ALREADY given good counter-examples.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[aichpvee]

Flash MX runs well in WINE and MOHO runs natively. As for 3D animation, the best package in the industry is available natively for Linux. As is SoftImage XSI. Of course those are both pay-to-play (and worth the money if you're making any using them, particularly Maya), but there is always the free learning edition of XSI which is available natively.

As far as animation is concerned on Linux, I think the lack of an affordable and high quality video editing and compositing solution is a MUCH bigger problem. Sure there's Shake (now from Apple) but you can get 2 Macs and a copy of Shake for Mac with free render nodes for the 10 grand they charge for the Linux or Irix versions.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[Anonymous Coward]

what we need in linux is the ability to use existing audio plug-ins easily (like native instruments and waves and other...). there are some hacks to use vst in linux, but they are not a part of the whole package. i can't imaging writing and producing music on Rosegarden or ardour as i'm doing in cubase. what linux needs is for the audio giants to start developing for linux!

i think that professional sound engineers and producers would happily use linux if it was as easily to use as existing audio software. as is well known, the more time it takes to learn how the system works the more time it takes away from productive work.

on the other hand we could just support OSX for audio. i wouldn't mind if OSX would win in this battle against windows, instead of linux.

i wonder if in history this linux vs. windows will be called the OS Wars? :P

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[innocent_white_lamb]

For vector... no idea.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[Anonymous Coward]

So mod me flamebait. Flash is garbage, nobody in their right mind runs flash content, it's a minority attraction for the braindead (the majority of whom run windows). "Ooooh, looky looky flashing graphics".

High end 3d software grew up on UNIX, where it is week is in the 'prosumer' packages and I would love to see a port of AM but the others suffer terminal suck anyway, including lightwave which my brother learnt first on Amiga before getting a job in the industry where he used Wavefront/IRIX. Anyway your complaint is bullshit because you would still have to pay for a PRMAN license on Windows. PRO-Level in the 3d graphics industry means that you have the source code to proprietry apps and have integrated them into your workflow, there are no off-the-shelf products which take you to the state of the art!

On the issue of pro audio, I work with tape because I don't consider *any* software to be ready yet. Protools is close, if it were there yet people wouldn't need to keep upgrading it every 2 years would they?

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[Anonymous Coward]

$1000 won't even buy you a decent convertor box or preamp, I spend more than that on tape every month and I still think $1000 is expensive for an audio package. Buy a hardware sequencer and be happy.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[grahamlee]

I point you at Cenon http://www.cenon.info/ which does the vector dance. Amongst other things.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[carrett]

if you really have to, it isn't all that difficult to run the windows flash studio mx with wine.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[freezin fat guy]

While there is not the same selection of software for Linux, the situation is improving all the time. I don't know about Flash, but having been required to evaluate tools in the game development industry I can assure you that GIMP + Maya is one of the most powerful 3D art combinations out there. You can build AAA level content with that pack.

In fact Blender can be useful too if you care to take the time to learn it and port it to your engine.

Just take a peek at some of the work posted on http://blender.org if you have any doubts about the capabilities of open source rendering software. If you care to argue, please include a link to some superior work that you have done.

Re:Many fields left where Linux is unsuitable

[forkazoo]

Where are you getting the "hundreds of thousands of dollars" figure? RenderMan compliant renderers start at free, and go up to a few thousand. You may want to check out aqsis, if you are interested in renderman, but don't want to spend money on a license... As for competant modelling and animation software priced for the hobbyist, there is less that is so impressive, which is why you hear so much about Blender.

Does anyone else...

[msimm]

find it annoying how he alway throws fragments of his failed creative writing into technical articles?

I don't know how many articles of his I've tried slogging through only to give up in discust with his French waiter schtick.

Re:Does anyone else...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. You'd think that a person of your vast intellegence would of realised that it's not worth bothering to read his articles instead of trying over and over and over again and failing with disgust.

But whatever. Next article you just may make it all the way thru. Keep on trying! Remember Charlie the choo-choo!

Re:Does anyone else...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know how many articles of his I've tried slogging through only to give up in discust with his French waiter schtick.

I think you are referring to Marcel Gagne who writes for Linux Journal and Tux and is not the author of this book.

Re:Does anyone else...

[Morel]

No, no. That's Marcel Gagne, who actually writes the "Cooking With Linux" column in Linux Journal. This guy is somebody else entirely, and his book is "The Linux Cookbook". Great article title, huh? Clear as mud.

At least what apps I needed available on linux

[vivekg]

Entertainment - XMMS, xine tvtime
Office work - Open Office
Surf the net and an email - Firefox and buddies
Chat - no comments ;)
Games - Only thing I miss couple of games apart from Doom

No need to install drivers, for example for some wired reason my tv tunner card always stuck under all edition of Windows but it works great on 2.6 kernel

Hey Linux makes great desktop for me I don't need graphics application just use it as computer for above and I'm done :D

it runs on everything now?

[bdigit]

Linux can cook food now?! Damn , hope it can serve it to me in bed as well.

http://www.immigrantornot.com/

Re:it runs on everything now?

[secretsquirel]

Mandrakes been a cooker for years.

Re:it runs on everything now?

[Anonymous Coward]

and BSD can brew beer. what a wonderfull world!

Re:it runs on everything now?

[AndroidCat]

Damn , hope it can serve it to me in bed as well.

I'm not sure that Real Dolls have a processor, let alone run Linux.

Interesting

[RobertTaylor]

"Kevin Bedell conducts a very interesting interview with Michael Stutz"

Interesting? Long term Linux user has book to sell.

EOF.

"very interesting"

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not. Don't bother reading it. Really.

Re:"very interesting"

[cybathug]

If you stand by your decision then come out of ac - or are you just trolling knowing that you'll get modded down?

Re:"very interesting"

[l3v1]

/* for the record: I never post AC and I don't know who that was - and yes, I'm on my monthly trolling spree, treat it as such */

So let's see:
- has used Linux exclusively for over a decade. He was the first to apply the open source methodology of Linux to non-software works
- My background is literature and philosophy, which has brought the advantage of perspective
- Forty years ago the United States was the greatest producer society in the world. What happened in that interval and how does it relate to Linux?
- an arrangement with the publisher, I typeset the book using only free software on Linux
- Our cities are decaying and dangerous. The implications for the younger generation are terrifying. But with Linux, we could turn all of that around!

Interesting ? Yes, a way to put it. Well, for these kinds of books it's most advantageous to have such a huge consumer base a in the U.S., to put it mildly. I for one would use the amount of cash for most, well, useful things.

Re:"very interesting"

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm on my monthly trolling spree, treat it as such

I just did...

Content?

[streepje]

This must be the most content-free interview I've read this year.

Marcel?

[Anonymous Coward]

Vhere-a is Mercel!? Thees is a reel deesgrece-a! Bork Bork Bork!

(he is the only reason I still subscribe to Linux Journal)

MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

Good Information Above!

Re:MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, you must be really bored to post such stupid and trollish messages here. Why don't you grow yourself a brain and learn C# or Windows instead?

you absolutely need Windows for

[Anonymous Coward]

Gator
Bonzi Buddy
Cydoor

Re:you absolutely need Windows for

[Scoria]

Adobe Photoshop
Macromedia Studio

Re:you absolutely need Windows for

[anagama]

• Adobe Photoshop
  Macromedia Studio

I suppose 100% of the Windows market uses these programs? Yeah right. For a small group of people, these apps might be the sticking point. That's fine if they really are a requirement, but for what most people do with their computers, Linux is not only adequate - it's better. The sad part is, people just don't know it. The internet experience on Linux may have it's annoyances (e.g., IE only sites), but then again, viruses, worms, etc. - I don't even care.

Re:you absolutely need Windows for

[grumbel]

### but for what most people do with their computers, Linux is not only adequate - it's better

No, its still worse. Linux might be better for a bit of mail and internet or some business uses with limited application requirements, but thats as far as it goes, people do a lot of other things on their computers beside mail and internet browsing (games, tax programms, house planing, custom software from @work, etc.). And simply getting a video from the net is already a pain in the ass under Linux, yes I can use mplayer which can play a hack of a lot formats, but tell some computer newbie how to compile and install it properly so that even inline-videos on webpages work out of the box, won't be fun.

### The sad part is, people just don't know it.

It doesn't matter if they know it or not, its simply not a good replacement for Windows at the moment and probally won't for quite a bit of time into the future. If for nothing else, gaming is still the killer feature that Windows can do and Linux can't and no Doom and Unreal alone don't make Linux 'ready for gaming'.

Re:you absolutely need Windows for

[anagama]

Re: Linux and gaming

You hear no end to the gaming argument. Fine. I'm still willing to bet that not 100% of computer users are gamers. When I was a kid, I played with my Atari, then my CoCo, and finally PC games. But at some point, at least for some users, there comes a time when games are just dull. Then, what do you use a computer for? Keeping data, analyzing data, email, internet -- stuff like that. There are lots of users who don't game and don't do photoshop. As for movies on the computer - I'm not that interested. I have a very nice TV/DVD setup - why would I want to look at video on a comparatively tiny monitor while sitting at a desk when I can sit back in true comfort (and no fan noise)?

I'm not saying Linux is perfect for everyone. But all these "it won't run photoshop or play games" arguments only prove that it isn't ready for a subset of users. For middle aged farts like me who want to graph data from my kiln firings, surf the net, check my email, and write a few letters, Linux isn't missing anything at all. Subtract viruses and worms from the mix, and Linux is far better. For now though, you gamers and graphic artists will just have to suffer with windows, but for crying out loud, enough already with the "Linux isn't ready" baloney. Although it doesn't meet your particular needs - there are lots of people for whom it would be perfect - they just don't know it.

Re:you absolutely need Windows for

[Anonymous Coward]

Switching to BSD was easy for me because I always felt that video games were gay. Still do.

Re:you absolutely need Windows for

[kjamez]

i agree. I don't use it as a work-horse desktop enviroment, i use it to reliably store stuff, as an additional means of security on my home net, and lots of other various things. If Adobe released photoshop 6 for linux (or hell, 7) i would be 'tickled pink' ... You can DO almost anything you want in linux, but being completely familiar with 'photoshop' 'vegas' and other such media-modifying/creation software in the windows enviroment, i find it a waste of time to try to learn the new 'aspiring' programs (i like gimp, but NEVER use it ... never got 'the hang of' blender, but i have a great 3dsmax book for reference.)

i VNC into a headless linux box where my email client sits running indefinately. it also is a test web-server, file server, router/firewall, caching proxy, and other such wonderful things.

as far as games go, if i could get xmame.svgalib to compile correctly, my headless linux box (hooked via ati tv-out) would be a wonderful 1900+ MP arcade box. i can play quake on a 42" sony vega, and if i could find some (stable) svgalib based emulators, i could play old sega games, etc. that's all i need as far as games, i have a ps2, and am not an avid gamer to begin with.

stuff like ripping dvd's -> divx and whatnot is IDEAL for linux. drop the disc in, few cmd line parameters, and you can leave it alone, come back to an encoded movie. (granted there is windows software to do it to, probably even easier, but i am aiming for 1. know it's spyware free, 2. free, and 3. reliable(?) ... )

i'm not fond of xorg dual-head support, but have almost gotten it to a place where it is tolerable. plus having 2xN virtual desktops is super nice, except i 'loose' running apps alot ..

if commercial software were ported to linux ( photoshop, studiomx etc ) would you buy it? What commercial software do you WANT ported to linux that you are wholly unsatisfied with the linux alternative. I wanted to make a 'linux-alternative' site years and years ago, when staroffice first came out, seeing how there is all this free software that does the job 'just as well, mostly' ... sure soffice had it's bugs, but all apps do, especially 'from scratch trying to mimic something that has 'feature-bugs' '

Re:you absolutely need Windows for

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget to point out the merits of Tuxracer.

Re:you absolutely need Windows for

[Anonymous Coward]

As for movies on the computer - I'm not that interested. I have a very nice TV/DVD setup
The parent poster was referring to inline-media inside webpages. You know, read the news article, click the link to watch the actual video footage of the incident, look at that movie preview, etc.

I'm not saying Linux is perfect for everyone. But all these "it won't run photoshop or play games" arguments only prove that it isn't ready for a subset of users.
The actual book in question didn't give me the impression that it was disputing whether or not Linux was ready for everything, it just said that there are applications that you "absolutely need Windows for". Photoshop and most video games are prime examples of this.

That said, I like using a dual-boot system with FreeBSD and WinXP. The new XFCE and KDE environments are far more visually appealing than the Microsoft-endorsed themes (Classic and Luna). But I need Photoshop, enjoy inlined-media in webpages (with no hassle setup), and can't get enough of the powerful MSDN for when I'm programming.

Re:you absolutely need Windows for

[secretsquirel]

Tell a computer newbie how to download and install mplayer to play vids out of the box?

Ok how bout "urpmi mplayer" "urpmi mplayer-plugin" and maybe a few codecs if you need'em. And viola your done. Fuck the manual installs, theres a better way.

Re:you absolutely need Windows for

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly, your post is right on the mark. When I have work to do, I hit up the Linux box. This works nicely because I am usually working on web applications and I find that running a web and database server on a desktop is much more sensible under Linux. When I want to do something fun, however, I don't even try to do it under Linux anymore.

As an example, I recently tried Fedora Core 3. I had downloaded some nice livesets (MP3) and thought I would install XMMS through the convenient "Add/Remove Applications" interface provided by the distro. I suspect that an MP3 player came with the distro, but I am familiar with XMMS and wanted to use it. No problem; the process was straightforward. So I try to open one of the MP3's in it, and it tells me that it won't play MP3's due to licensing concerns! I had to search around to find how to add MP3 support to XMMS to listen to these livesets. Now, it wasn't particularly hard to do, but that's not the point. Modern distros should be usable out of the box. If that means going through some kind of automated setup process to install the bits that every user wants but can't be shipped with the distro for some reason, that's one thing. Preaching to the user (implicitly, at least) about software patents and not providing any information regarding how to rectify the user's problem is quite another.

Open source software has turned out to be a boon for a lot of people, but Linux desktop development is one of the saddest examples of poorly-performing efforts. After years of development, the only thing that really works well on the Linux desktop is web browsing. In fact, it doesn't even deliver the web browsing people are used to (referring to the lack of Flash and Java here). So, at least it's on-par with a stock Windows install in that respect (I'll spare developers the disgrace of how much easier it would be to add that functionality under Windows as compared to Linux).

The first Linux distro I used was Slackware 2.2 and I managed to setup X on my 486/66 and run FVWM. I remember downloading Netscape 1.2 on my 14.4k modem. What has changed since then? Well, there's a massive "desktop environment" that lets me click on a start menu-esque thing and start programs. Oh, OpenOffice was an awesome addition, too, but that's a multi-platform app. There's Firefox now, but that runs under Windows too (isn't win32 the primary dev environment for Firefox?. There are more distro vendor-provided packages now which is convenient and makes everything seem more unified, but honestly, little has changed. The "best apps for Linux" are also available under Windows, and even really cheap computers come with Windows. Why not just run Windows and if you want the Linux apps, just download Firefox, Openoffice, or whatever you want and take all the benefits of using a mainstream OS in the process?

The sane option is to use Windows on your desktop unless you have some specific reason to do otherwise. Now, that may be that you simply like to tinker with systems. I have no qualms about backing up my data to my file server (running Gentoo (without X)) and trying out a new OS for the hell of it when I'm not working on a project. Where are the people taking ordinary distros and adding unofficial tweaks to make a usable system out of the box? Why hasn't someone taken the Fedora Core 3 DVD, added MP3 support, done all of the work in adding Flash/Java/RealPlayer/WMV support to the browser, downloaded some of the hundreds of megs of updates and slipstreamed them into the install, and turned the damn thing into a Windows killer if that's what people want it to be? When RedHat first started gaining popularity, I knew the Linux desktop had problems in its future. Then all the big guys wanted to form organizations with committees and all the rest. Now there are strict rules as to what goes into all major distributions because everyone is running scared. You don't get anywhere running scared. The users don't give a shit about patent concerns and all that crap, that's for sure; they download music and mo

Re:you absolutely need Windows for

[Anonymous Coward]

if commercial software were ported to linux ( photoshop, studiomx etc ) would you buy it? What commercial software do you WANT ported to linux that you are wholly unsatisfied with the linux alternative.

I really don't think people would buy it, and I suspect that many large vendors have evaluated the market and come up with the same conclusion. Vendors need their software to run on the corporate desktop. For many reasons, those desktops run Windows. Show me a Linux desktop solution that provides the power of active directory and group policies. Anyway, the hundreds of thousands of dollars required to port software to Linux would be rewarded with few sales, and tons of illegal sharing of the software. I think the average Linux user is the same person who would run a pirated copy of Photoshop under Windows. How many people here downloaded Photoshop just to edit a few icons or something? Few people have actually used a licensed copy other than perhaps at school; that's almost certain. The piracy of Windows software is a cost of doing business. The wholesale piracy of Linux software that was painstakingly ported from another platform is a business disaster, a real and significant cost to a development firm. It would happen, too; remember the commercial X servers that were available once upon a time? You could get them at #linuxwarez at least 7 or 8 years ago. If anyone thinks that with the proliferation of high-speed connections since then (especially among people who would use Linux) that a company could actually make money off of a Linux development project, they are sadly mistaken.

I'm generally willing to struggle with GIMP instead of downloading a copy of Photoshop, but I couldn't see myself paying much cash for software these days. The only thing I'm seriously considering paying a premium for right now is a Mac Mini, because of the fine hardware and software combination. Paying just for software is not really within the mindset of your typical Linux user, myself included.

MOD PARENT UP!!!

[Prod_Deity]

I work with professional audio at home and work.

ALSA is a pain in the ass.

Audacity is good for an amature, but like the parent said, until there are more professional apps, Linux will just be a good server os, and an o.k. desktop.

If businesses cannot embrace Linux due to lack of apps, who will?

Re:MOD PARENT UP!!!

[joto]

Huh? Alsa? What's wrong with alsa? It's a sound-driver. It makes it possible to get input and output to and from your soundcard(s). It supports hardware and software mixing. And with linux/alsa/jack you generally get lower latency and higher flexibility than with windows. It also supports several professional soundcards...

Now audacity, I can agree. It's not in any way comparable to many professional audio tools for windows. But hey, if you wan't professional audio tools, why pick on audacity, it doesn't look like it was intended to be one. Now, if you had picked on wired, muse, ardour, rosegarden, ecasound, csound, pd, jmax, cmt, rtcmix , nyquist, sweep, jamin, or any of the other more "professional" tools, I could have understood you. But picking on audacity for not being suitable for professionals is like picking on soundrec.exe for much the same reason.

Re:MOD PARENT UP!!!

[lachlan76]

Could you be more specific about how alsa was a pain in the ass? My setup was fairly painless...

Re:MOD PARENT UP!!!

[Mprx]

Ardour is the equal of Windows pro level apps. It might not look as flashy, but it is very powerful.

Re:MOD PARENT UP!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Real pro's choose solid workman like tools, not flashy graphics!

Software for industrial use had better look like it means business and ardour does exactly that.

Re:MOD PARENT UP!!!

[Jahz]

I work with professional audio at home and work. ALSA is a pain in the ass.

Analog sound through ALSA works out-of-the-box any decent linux distro. I will admit that I spent a full week configuring my ALSA to output digital audio via s/pdif by default for all applications. Now that I got that working, sound in linux is far better than in windows.

ALSA is not a pain in the ass -- it is just highly configurable! There are so many possible configuration options that almost anything is possible. With the help of the ALSA documentation, you can do crazy things to your sound. You can split up audio streams, change the physical properties of the sound (period manipulation, etc) and even mirror your sound over several different cards/output ports.

Want to swap the front-left channel with the surround-right? It would be two lines in your ALSA config file. Now, try doing that with Windows.

Re:MOD PARENT UP!!!

[kruhft]

For a sound editor, I would recommend rezound. It has all the features that you could ask for of a professional sound editor, with a pretty interesting interface to boot.

Re:MOD PARENT UP!!!

[EvilJoker]

This may not be a problem of ALSA, but I'm currently trying to learn Linux (dedicated box and all), with Fedora Core 2 and a Mad Dog 4.1 sound card. tested it, and it worked fine.
At some point I broke ALSA without actually touching it directly (probably when trying to install mplayer). All diagnostics say no problem, but no sound. Tested since with Knoppix (and ALSA) and it works right.

This might not be a problem of ALSA, but it is indeed a problem related to it. Easy enough to do by accident, and too hard for many people to resolve.

Re:MOD PARENT UP!!!

[runderwo]

Check your mixer settings (alsamixer). You probably have a few channels or the master volume muted.

Memory leaps need to be overcome..

[necromcr]

.. for opensource to be accepted into community.

I have a story to offer you. Not so long ago my co-worker asked me if I could "fix" a Celeron 600MHz machine with winblows 98 installed. It was for a woman that needed an office suite in our native language for that machine and I recommended him OpenOffice (who could have guessed?). He said:

- "No, I need Microsoft Office".
- "What kind of Office do you need?"
- "Office 97." I was like *DUH*.

- "OpenOffice is 100% compatible with Office 97 and it's legaly free, you'll be installing a pirate version on this machine!"

And he responds: "Well, she (the owner of the PC) strictly needs Office 97 for her semminar documents".

DAMN, if I could, I'd strangle the guy..

Re:Memory leaps need to be overcome..

[Eric Giguere]

This isn't unreasonable if you're a user who just wants to use the tools you know. I installed OpenOffice for someone for a similar reason, who needed to edit PowerPoint documents. He wasn't thrilled because OpenOffice didn't look exactly like office. It also kept asking him when she was saving his files if he really wanted to use the old Office format instead of the 'better' OpenOffice format. He needed the standard format because she was displaying the presentations with PowerPoint on machines where I couldn't go and install OpenOffice. The kicker for him, though, was that the presentations he edited with OpenOffice did not look the same when he ran them in PowerPoint. Sure, that's a bug that will probably (or may already have been) fixed, but that didn't help him get his job done.

In the end, he bought the version of Office that included PowerPoint and now he's happy.

Not everyone wants to be on the leading edge or to try out new things. You sometimes have to think of this from their viewpoint. Some people just don't care -- they've learned one tool and they don't want to learn another.

Eric
How to detect Internet Explorer

Re:Memory leaps need to be overcome..

[necromcr]

Ok, true, they DONT care. But is it so hard to be helped to a better way? And no, I don't mean "the best" as christians did centuries ago..

Rachael Ray cooks with Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

If not, I'm willing to teach her . . .

For some strange reason....

[hashwolf]

I managed to read that as "Cooking with Linus"

That would have made a great article.

Re:For some strange reason....

[Anonymous Coward]

>>I managed to read that as "Cooking with Linus"

It wouldn't distribute well, unless he was very thinly sliced...

Re:At least what apps I needed available on linux

[amberp]

"Chat - no comments ;)"
Why ? Are you Gaim ?

First to apply OS methodology outside SW?

[TeknoHog]

About Michael Stutz Michael Stutz has used Linux exclusively for over a decade. He was the first to apply the open source methodology of Linux to non-software works

This is utter BS. The open source methodology is basically the scientific method, which has been used for at least hundreds of years. Other kinds of OS analogies, like folk music, go back way more.

Re:First to apply OS methodology outside SW?

[Anonymous Coward]

The open source methodology is basically the scientific method

As a scientist, I find that remark absolutely revolting. The "open source methodology" is much closer to being a political party or religion than the scientific method. Be glad that the validity of FOSS proponents claims aren't easily testable, because I highly doubt that they would stand up to any reasonable application of the scientific method.

Re:First to apply OS methodology outside SW?

[TeknoHog]

I think you might be confusing opensource with free software. The latter is a religious/political movement.

Opensource is the bare, practical side of free software. The software can be seen as a model or a theory, which everyone is allowed and encouraged to test and improve.

Re:First to apply OS methodology outside SW?

[colinrichardday]

Then why did Galileo publish his work in Italian, rather than Latin?

Also, how would one test the validity of closed-source development. At least with FOSS one can see the code.

A judicious comparison

[adeydas]

For a judicious comparison between the two, you may visit this page: http://www.michaelhorowitz.com/Linux.vs.Windows.ht ml .

Re:A judicious comparison

[lucmove]

Interesting article, with an interesting statement:

The install process is designed by Linux people for Linux people.

I see that as the major problem in all OSS. EVERYTHING is designed by Linux people for Linux people. Or, to be more generic and accurate at the same time, designed by geeks for the geek community. Even if Linux really had all applications someone may need (it certainly does NOT), most still look or behave substandard. And that is because while this army of coders writes software entirely free of charge, they are only interested in coding what is fun from the perspective of a programmer. They don't seem to care much about looks, usability, well thought-out GUI design. That part is boring. They do not have the burden of competition and the pressing need to please a given target audience so that more copies of the product are sold and the boss is happy with the bottom line. The vast majority of OSS programmers are only worried about satisfying themselves and/or their fellow OSS geeks. The result is software that has a very solid foundation and certainly impresses people who can read code, but very often comes across as lacking by Windows or Mac users. Besides, Qt and GTK widgets are incredibly ugly.

If Linux really wants to be popular and rightfully claim that it has "everything you need", examples like KDE, Gnome and Firefox must be followed more closely. Or else, non-techie people will always dislike Linux, important software that still is absent in the *nix platform will never be ported to it because there is no commercial interest, and buying compatible hardware for our *nix boxes will always a bit of a lottery. Which will drive lots of people ever farther away from it. It is a vicious circle that has to be broken.

Re:A judicious comparison

[Anonymous Coward]

> non-techie people will always dislike Linux

Non-techie people dislike computers, they could care less what OS is running.

oh yes!

[Anonymous Coward]

oh goodness it would have been the best ever! with his babies!

Re:At least what apps I needed available on linux

[NanoGator]

"Games - Only thing I miss couple of games apart from Doom"

Ever notice how some Linux users turn into minimalists when the whole games thing is mentioned? Heh.

Open sauce, anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Penguin in open sauce! Yum!

Recipe for Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

You will need:

500 g of prime, lean penguin meat
2 kg of Finnish Human soaked in Swedish wine
1 tablespoon of Stallman stock

Instructions

1. Combine the ingredients in a rough manner but ensure that they bind well
2. Simmer slowly over 10 years or so on a low heat
3. Add some more Stallman stock and bring to the boil
4. Quickly place the lid on to avoid boilover, or alternatively add 2 litres of Redmond FUD to cool things off
5. Add 1 kg of the secret ingredient (rock cocaine) to keep the diners happy
6. Present on several plates of various types and don't forget to add the open sauce!
7. Enjoy and remeber to play with the food

Serves Millions.

Re:Recipe for Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

8. ????
9. Profit ;-)

Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

Linux is good for:
- Scientific apps (I know Astronomy best but as I understand it there are other areas where Analysis tools are all written to run under Un*x)
- Running as a web/ftp/mail etc. etc. internet server
- Teaching developers to code in a number of languages without forking out tens of dollars on costly development environments
- Generally running in places where otherwise licensing costs would be prohibitive.
- Users who want more control over the environment, and can afford the time configuring it correctly.

Windows is good for:
- Writing documents (Word, Excel etc. suck but they're still better than anything else I've seen)
- Presentations, Graphics, Video editing (though plenty would argue Mac's better still).
- The many tasks where there isn't equivalent software under Linux. Can you beat Chessmaster, Fritz, Chessbase, Shredder, Tasc Tutor for chess on Linux? Certainly not. And I'm sorry but gimp is a poor replacement for Photoshop/Paintshop pro.

Why the hell would anyone want to use one OS where another works better? Until there are a LOT more feature rich easy to use applications and more variety under Linux than Windows that's the way it is. Using Linux for running office software is like using a saw to hammer in a nail. Using Windows as a high volume web server is similarly absurd. Don't let Linux zealots or Windows money hungry corporate sales people fool you into throwing away this common sense principle.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[1lus10n]

Have you ever used openoffice ? Given my personal experience OOo performs just about the same as MO.

Can't speak about Gimp vs paint/photoshop since I am about has graphic savvy as a brick. Linux is clearly the worst for end-user graphic/video stuff although there are tons of high end packages availible for it. OSX is clearly tops in this catagory (I assume we are talking 'home user' here ?)

"can afford the time configuring it correctly."

The average person doesnt spend any time configuring their windows system "properly" they just use the defaults. Linux would be no different. To be quite blunt about it .... you wouldnt need to be a poweruser, linux is a lot more friendly in the "set it and forget it" department. It seems like most people hold a double standard here. The average user still calls the monitor "computer" and the tower "cpu". They dont know anything about windows or linux. They are about as likely to know how to edit the registry has they are to be able to mess around in /proc.

I have switched probably 2 dozen friends/family over to linux in the past 2 years. The vast majority were your standard "web, email, IM" users. None of them have had any major issues. Surely no more problems than they had with windows prior to my switching them over.

"Using Linux for running office software is like using a saw to hammer in a nail"

So that would make using windows for the same purpose like using a screwdriver to hammer the same nail ? Linux works fine for the majority of office use. The only things it is majorly lacking in is games and graphics stuff. Thats a big thing for some. However the average law office (example) could use openoffice with little problem.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[Anonymous Coward]

You left out Digital Audio Workstations. I can't even think of a multitrack digital interface with synchronous overdub that works under Linux, and what audio software I've seen is very primitive (I mean "its 1995, Macromedia SoundEdit v1 is cool" primitive).

"Why the hell would anyone want to use one OS where another works better?"

Damn straight. Linux has it's strengths, but productivity software (that is, non-nerdy stuff) just isn't one of them. Sorry folks, but some of us do buy computers to achieve an end, not just because we like computers.

Though I must point out, OS X has the advantages of an industrial strength UNIX base for the geeks (with all the associated boffinware), with enough polish and productivity apps to keep the non-nerds busy (Photoshop & Excel started out on the Mac, remember). Why relegate Mac to video work only, when it actually represents the best of both worlds? Last I checked, "computer" didn't just mean "x86 architecture"...

Re:Right tool for the right job

[Anonymous Coward]

There's all the warehouse/inventory, telecom/customer service data tracking software out there that needs windows. Is there a linux version of citrix?

Re:Right tool for the right job

[Anonymous Coward]

"Given my personal experience OOo performs just about the same as MO."

I take it you've never tried to link spreadsheet data to a word processing document, then.

"I have switched probably 2 dozen friends/family over to linux in the past 2 years....Surely no more problems than they had with windows"

I have switched a similar number over to OS X in the past 18 months. And after the first week or two, I never hear questions again. Not rarely, not "no more than Windows", I mean NONE. Okay, one, and that was about merging two user accounts, which is a UNIX file permission issue anyway so Linux would be equally prone, but the Finder's "Get Info" command let me talk them through the solution over the phone in 10 minutes.

These people are using digital cameras, scanners, printers, and video cameras as simply as plugging them in, they're using Safari, Mail.app, MSOffice, IRC, IM, GarageBand, even OpenOffice and GIMP, and some also have the major game releases plus UNIX gems like BZFlag. They aren't locked into the Aqua interface look (ShapeShifter), and installing and uninstalling software is a painless procedure for them. Their machines are correctly configured out of the box, the firewall automatically looks after any services they enable, there is no spy or adware that can install itself through a browser, and viruses are unheard of; the paranoid get ClamX.

Can you say all of that for Windows OR Linux?

I bet someone will still complain that Macs are too expensive for their processing power: how much is your sanity worth, considering the ease with which all this can be achieved on these "underpowered" machines?

Re:Right tool for the right job

[Anonymous Coward]

how much is your sanity worth
70% frogbucket an a hello?

Re:Right tool for the right job

[heffrey]

One of the beauties of open source is that you can compile software on any platform. This means that you can run your OSS scientific apps, development tools, languages, IDEs on Windows as well as *nix. This gives you the best of both worlds.

I work as as professional developer and our small company produces software only for Windows - it wouldn't make financial sense for us to support other platforms. Obviously then we use Windows machines. I can and do use all the standard *nix tools (compiled for Windows or through cygwin) and we use libraries like LAPACK, FFTPACK etc. in our product.

Remember, if you have the source, you can compile it for any platform!

Re:Right tool for the right job

[Anonymous Coward]

Most digital cameras, scanners and printers that work in Mac OS X work pretty much out of the box. Similarly, most that work in Linux also work pretty much out of the box. In either case of course you might have some crazy hardware that only works in Windows, and it's game over for ordinary users.

USBMSC cameras cause a drive icon to appear on the GNOME desktop, just like Mac OS. PTP cameras can be accessed from a "choose the thumnails" type interface which also lets you re-configure the camera.

Scanner software varies under Mac OS due to the TWAIN standard (buy a cheap scanner, get lousy software). In Linux you get the same broadly tested scanner software for all supported scanners, and yes it's integrated into the Office and Photo retouch software just like Mac OS.

I haven't used non-Postscript printers for a long time (once you have a fast A0 poster printer you never care what HP's desktop division is up to) but it seems to me that directly connected printers just need the user to enter a few details (which port they plugged it into, and what to call it, for example) and then they work. Network printers are of course detected automatically and listed whenever you go to select a printer in Linux.

Still it's true that Linux doesn't run Garage Band. If that was the deciding factor in choosing a computer for your friends and family then it must have been an easy decision.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[njyoder]

Linux is good for scientific apps? I'm sorry, but linux is a lot more limited in the availability and quality of scientific software. You can do all the rest of the stuff in windows, aside from the licensing of windows itself. You can get all the same software for windows, for FREE, including all the dev tools. You can also configure windows with even more fine grained permissions than with linux unless you're using selinux.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[TeknoHog]

Have you ever used openoffice ? Given my personal experience OOo performs just about the same as MO.

I agree that OOo is a good replacement for MS Office, but the whole WYSIWYG idea sucks for writing anything more than a few pages. For longer, structured documents LaTeX or something similar is much better. It runs on Windows as well.

In my opinion, word processors are just glorified drawing programs, with a few special features added to make text processing easier. They tend to make the user more focused on the superficial presentation than the actual content/structure. Which is fine in some cases, but not when you're writing an essay, an academic thesis or something like those.

I also know from practical experience that word processors get painfully slow to use for large and complicated documents. Besides, no office software has the stability of simple text editors, and it would be annoying to lose your thesis because of a bug in your nice and shiny word processor.

Word processors are stupid and inefficient.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[The MESMERIC]

Your common sense principle needs revising - but you are not too far off.

While there are many truths in your statements
I (the Linux Zealot) beg to differ:

Office Productivity can be hampered a lot by the nuisances incurred by Windows Operating System:
security and stability.

I can agree that Mac offers a more solid work or productive environment.
But Microsoft Windows? That is short of financial suicide.

Virtually all spam comes from Windows infected PCs = zombies.
Hacking Windows even after the SP2 update is still the easiest exercise for any script-kiddie.

About writing documents ..
While I still think MS Excel is their best application ever (IMO).
MS Word is an annoying frustrating experience.
Each upgrade represents a chore of problems - of documents losing format or not being properly read.

In Linux you will find many commercial/non-commercial varieties that do the job just fine. Take Textmaker for example; fast clean and a pleasure to use and offers often better compatibility with Word documents than Open Office.
And that goes without saying that these "MS Word Clones" - offer better compatibility with the various versions of Word Documents than Microsoft Word itself.

Presentation / Graphics / Video Editing - you are right. But then I would go Mac never sloppy Windows.
Linux wins on very large enterprises like the movie industry (animation and sound editing). Take Shrek that was edited primarily using Linux.
Other animation houses use Mac but never Windows.

Linux sucks on games - only because MS & Co. prevents it so (and prevents Macs as well).
So for Home & Family Entertainment - Windows is best.

Now I prefer Gimp to Photoshop - would you call me biased?
But I prefer Corel Draw to any flimsy attempt at a decent Vector Package for Linux.

Sadly the clowns at Corel Draw - removed support for Mac entirely.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[colinrichardday]

Word is better than TeX/LaTeX?

Re:Right tool for the right job

[Anonymous Coward]

> You can also configure windows with even more fine
> grained permissions than with linux unless you're
> using selinux.

POSIX ACL's have been availiable for years, they aren't standard because they aren't required. If consider file extensions a more fine grained permission than mime-types, umask and ex-bit then you have other issues.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[njyoder]

Who said ANYTHING about file extensions? Ever since its inception Windows NT and all of its derivatives have had ACLs. I'm not sure how mime-types and umask come into this. Mime-types have nothing to do with the kernel/OS and umask is just about the default bitmask for file permissions. I don't even know what the hell you're referring to by an "ex-bit." And what does it say that windows has something STANDARD and SECURE installed by DEFAULT that linux doesn't? I love the double standard you're playing here.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[alexmat]

Why the hell would anyone want to use one OS where another works better?

It's amazing how many people I meet these days like you that only care about what's best for them. Then they blame society/others for all that goes wrong. But others are not the problem, it's your attitude stupid.

To answer the question, I use "another OS" because I believe in FREEDOM (as in speech) and FREEDOM (as in economic). The author being interviewed was right, we've become a culture where intellectual property and patents have become more valuable than labor. Listen closely to this part: Wealth can only be generated through labor!

It doesn't matter where you stand politically, this is not a political issue. We are on a steep decline into irrelevance as a civilization if people like you continue to cling to your selfish mindset.

Don't talk to me about "right tool for the right job" because there is a much more important concept you need to learn first: "your ends should justify your means."

Re:Right tool for the right job

[marcosdumay]

You didn't point all the importance of Linux in some points:
Scientific apps: Almost all serious scientific apps are written in linux (or Matlab, but no real world app is written in Mathlab, just tests).
Teaching developers...: Open source programs are very important on this issue.
running in places where otherwise licensing costs would be prohibitive: And in places where there are no other OS.

And didn't saw the importance on other fields:
Writing documents: LaTeX is the must used tool for writting, unless you are talking about short memos, for what MS word is really excelent. It is a sad fact that most people don't write more than short memos.
Graphics: You meant 2D graphics, didn't you?
The many tasks where there isn't equivalent software under Linux: I know much more tasks whithout a Windows program capable of doing it than a linux one.

And you forgot the biggest difference: Windows has games, lots of them.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

Have you ever used openoffice ? Given my personal experience OOo performs just about the same as MO.

Yes I have. I wonder just how people who think its just as good as Microsoft Office use Microsoft Office, because I've found it to be useless.

I have switched probably 2 dozen friends/family over to linux in the past 2 years. The vast majority were your standard "web, email, IM" users.

Yes if all you do is web, email and IM, Linux will do just fine. For office use I totally disagree.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

Most digital cameras, scanners and printers that work in Mac OS X work pretty much out of the box. Similarly, most that work in Linux also work pretty much out of the box. In either case of course you might have some crazy hardware that only works in Windows, and it's game over for ordinary users.

Most hardware will support Windows as priority one, Mac as priority 2, and Linux as a distant third. Linux hardware support is fantastic given its roots but is just no where near as universal as Windows. Just how many cameras and scanners have you tried to connect to a computer?

I haven't used non-Postscript printers for a long time (once you have a fast A0 poster printer you never care what HP's desktop division is up to)

Wait a second are you trying to tell me that you're using an A0 poster printer to print everything? That's an expensive way to print an office document. That really is using the wrong tool for the job! In any case having a small A3 or A4 printer has its advantages. For starters, you can now print to CD/DVD and being a recent development it would be a much more expensive proposition to replace an A0 printer than to upgrade A4 printers every 2-3 years.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

I agree that OOo is a good replacement for MS Office, but the whole WYSIWYG idea sucks for writing anything more than a few pages. For longer, structured documents LaTeX or something similar is much better. It runs on Windows as well.

There's so much wrong with this sentence I don't know where to begin. Non-WYSIWYG solutions are awful if presentation matters to you and it can matter for a lot of reasons (eg. your document has to conform to a standard for legal purposes, your technical illustrations work better laid out a certain way, you're writing something for its presentation - eg marketting.). When you use Latex under those circumstances you spend hours fiddling trying to get the format right.

If you don't care what your layout looks like its no wonder you think Open Office is just as good as MS Office. You're showing clear contempt for the entire WYSIWYG concept.

I also know from practical experience that word processors get painfully slow to use for large and complicated documents. Besides, no office software has the stability of simple text editors, and it would be annoying to lose your thesis because of a bug in your nice and shiny word processor.

Certainly Open Office and MS Office are guilty of that, but that's an implementation issue and doesn't have anything to do with the concept being flawed. In any case they have gotten better. I've seen 200+ page specifications handled realtively well. Granted you had to back them up often in case there was a stuffup but that's infinitely better than having to alter a document that size by hand without seeing the finished product. The reason business users adopted office suites en mass is that they were simple (WYSIWYG, no time wasted thinking about how the document would present).

Personally what I'd like to see is something that was both stable and WYSIWYG. There are a couple of WYSIWYG interfaces to Latex such as scientific workplace. I was going to have to learn Latex for publishing papers during my astronomy masters but the requirement was withdrawn and I never did purchase a copy. I was dreding having to hand edit formulae, and large amounts of text in Latex. Really isn't very practical unless you truely don't care about layout, and have plenty of time to translate formulae into Latex speak.

What a WYSIWYG editor does is let you focus on what you're actually trying to say even when layout is important. Instead of figuring out "how do I put formula x in a square on the bottom right hand corner of the page", you just create your text box and forumla and build it up graphically. That's exactly the sort of time you do want it to be a graphical experience. You don't want to have to futz around with how you build the formula up in Latex and then how do you place it.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

Linux is good for scientific apps? I'm sorry, but linux is a lot more limited in the availability and quality of scientific software

Most of the tools for reducing astronomical data coming for the large instruments (Hubble, large Radio telescopes etc.) is Un*x only. If you're doing serious Astronomy you're not going to get away with avoiding Unix.

Linux does a fantastic job for these applications by the way, but its only because academics wrote and built solutions using Unix in a space where there was little commerical interest.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

I can agree that Mac offers a more solid work or productive environment.
But Microsoft Windows? That is short of financial suicide.

Well its the sort of "financial suicide" that's standard in Banks and Insurance companies, large and small that I've worked for over the last few years.


About writing documents ..
While I still think MS Excel is their best application ever (IMO).
MS Word is an annoying frustrating experience.

Word is actually a lot better than it use to be, but both Word and Excel still can lose data. This isn't ideal and I do wish they were better BUT you can work around this by saving often and backing up often. I've regularly worked on very large documents (usually programming/system specs) and have only lost more than a few minutes of work a handful of times, usually because I didn't respect the fact that Word could get itself in a knot and did more than half a day's work without backing up.

Now I prefer Gimp to Photoshop - would you call me biased?
What sort of stuff are you doing in Gimp? If you're converting to a different format and little more then sure save as works the same in Gimp as photoshop for the most part. You're right about neither being suited for vector graphics.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

Word is better than TeX/LaTeX?

A hammer is better than a saw?

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

It's amazing how many people I meet these days like you that only care about what's best for them. Then they blame society/others for all that goes wrong. But others are not the problem, it's your attitude stupid.

Oh yeah its me that has an attitude problem. I should go around using software that doesn't work for me and call people I disagree with stupid. That's a much better attitude.

Tell me do you drive a car? You do? Don't you care about pollution??? You're destroying the planet?

Have you ever read a book or written something on a piece of paper? What? You have? Don't you care that they're destroying the rainforests?

Do you use electricity? Of course you're at a computer! Fossil fuel user!!!!

Do you eat egs or poultry? What!?! You are condoning the killing of innocent animals.

This is the REAL world, and you have to make real compromises every single day about what you do and don't use and how it does harm. No one exists for free or in a vacuum. You take something out from the environment and hopefully you put something back in too. Bottom line is that going around abusing people for doing the right thing by themselves is futile, counter productive and will leave you with no friends.

Ya smelly hippy! ;-)

Re:Right tool for the right job

[njyoder]

Astronomy software only makes up a small portion of scientific software. Try comparing practically any CAD, EDA or mathematics software.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

I was being illustrative not exhaustive in my examples and making the point that Linux is good for some things, windows for others. Saying one is better than another for everything is just plain silly.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[alexmat]

Your right on all counts, but the difference between you and me (at least from the tone of your first post) is that I recognize my faults and work to change myself as best I can. I don't gripe about open software lacking features, I try to figure out a way to live without them and contribute what I can on the development side. I don't ignore the pollution my car puts out, I find a job closer to my house so I don't have to commute so far and whenever I can I carpool. I try to conserve energy and am learning to enjoy soy milk (even though it takes forever to get used to the taste). Am I a hippy? Maybe, but at least I'm trying. Your right though, you do need to make compromises. Even RMS started out using proprietary tools. What makes me sad is that people forget that the compromises should be a means and not the ends. Sure you can say you're giving back to the environment that supports you, but at the rate we're going someone is going to have to pick up the tab we leave behind. Just try not to be so complacent, there is a better way.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[The MESMERIC]

I use Gimp to do what most people do with Photoshop: General Image Manipulations.
I am not a Photographer or a full-time Graphics Designer (although I love hand-drawing and designing Logos)
What I don't like about Photoshop is not the software itself but the OS : modal windows.

Gimp (and most apps in Linux) - you have that freedom of floating dialog boxes instead of Modal-windows; so you can get under it.

The general averseness with Gimp is twofold:

1. People are way too accustomed to Photoshop and unlearning stuff is short of painful.
2. Gimp on Windows/Cygwin sucks sucks badly. And sadly that is Windows-users gain their first impressions of the software.

In Gimp if you are stuck - right click (navigate the menu from thereon to do almost anything).
Gimp is definitely better what it used to be (I abhored the 1.x versions), and not that sub-standard in comparison to Photoshop.
I don't deny however that Photoshop itself is an extremely professional state-of-the-art software and that in many fronts it still beats Gimp (as I keep hearing: CMYK / Pantone profiles).
But there is much more to Gimp than people are vaguely aware.

For me its refreshing and exciting the whole evolutionary (if not revolutionary) process. Sure many Linux-ported applications are still sub-par in contrast to Windows-only:

Photogenics, MainActor, QCad / LinuxCad

Some got the timing wrong and had to pull-out as Linux wasn't popular then: NetObjects Fusion for Linux and MusicMatch Jukebox.
Others were bullied by the Microsoft lobby: most notably games.
While others still support a Linux version to this date: Maya Complete and Mathematica (way too expensive I rather settle for the free Blender, Octave and Pov-Ray)

Which leads us to the Open Source:

The were have a vast library of resources just to cater for the Designer.
But sadly we got tired and old in learning new stuff.

I cannot comment on the world of Mac. Which should be more user-oriented than developer-oriented; a means to an end as you stated.

While Microsoft itself - is a damn pain in the arse. People are stucked with it for lock-in reasons including proprietory formats - that is how they bred so many software houses writing apps just for it.
Rebooting, desinfecting - recovering corrupted documents is a hassle any business and I could do without. And so .. I resist.

Use Mac / Use Linux / but using Microsoft = very unwise.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

Photoshop can do a variety of things that Gimp can't. If you're not aware of these, that's fine you obviously don't need it but then you're not qualified to say Gimp is a good replacement.

People do "general image manipulations" in a variety of ways. Do you use layers and masks at all? Or do you just use the brightness/contrast control and save or save as?

The fact is there are a lot areas where competing companies only produce software for Windows (or Windows and Mac afterwards). There are lots of areas where you just can't get commercial quality software in Linux. Period.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[Al Dimond]

Interesting that you mention law offices. Law offices were one of the last business environments to really shift from Word Perfect to MS Word, because many legal documents require precise formatting and the lawyers had all been trained to produce good documents in Word Perfect (there are probably many that could still make better-looking docs in WP4.2 than WordXP) / MS Word's auto-formatting features frequently made a mess of their documents. I'm neither a lawyer nor an OO.o user, but I can't imagine OO.o would be any better for legal documents now than Word was in the late 90s.

(Throw them lawyers into vi and have'em write some TeX. They'll get their formatting... muahaha)

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

I don't gripe about open software lacking features, I try to figure out a way to live without them and contribute what I can on the development side.

Some of us have other priorities in life (like family), and some of us don't have the time, desire or skills to contribute directly to software development.

Do you drive a car? Why can't you just make do with a horse and buggy since its the better way?

Using sub-standard out of date software that doesn't fulfil your needs is no different to trying to replace your car with a horse and buggy.

If you're happy to live without decent software with decent features, or if you can afford to devote some or all of your life to contributing that's fantastic, but for fark sake don't go around abusing people who don't choose to the same. You're like the monk, who deciding to have devote their life to God and higher spirituality decides to spit on and abuse everyone else for not doing the same.

Get a clue. You'll be a happier person for it.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[fishbowl]

I thought crafty could beat fritz with a full endgame book.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[fishbowl]

"2. Gimp on Windows/Cygwin sucks sucks badly."

I haven't seen any problem. If anything, I find it better, since I didn't have to configure anything to make the scanner work, something I haven't managed to accomplish using SANE.

Otherwise, I see no problem at all -- what problems have you experienced?

Re:Right tool for the right job

[The MESMERIC]

Yes Gimp uses layers and masks and filters and paths and channels and scripting extensions, animation - it only lacks better colour management.

Now why do I always over-estimate people ??

I seriously thought I was talking with someone with better Graphics/Design experience.

Come on man you need to do your own research.
Next time try and base your arguments on a list of verifiable evidence don't just rant away.

Otherwise people will see you as nothing but a camcorder tourist.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

I thought crafty could beat fritz with a full endgame book.

And of course the way to judge which platform is better for chess is by working out which engine wins playing chess right? WRONG. Unless your rating is high (well above 2000) any of today's chess engines will still put up an excellent fight. If you're learning chess, this is all even less relevant.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[The MESMERIC]

at the time
the cursor hardly pointed the right object
they gave a long strict 45 degrees NW pointing cursor with its hotspot somewhere along the stem.

really hope they got this fixed now.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

For Christ sake, I know Gimp does all that but HOW WELL does it do it all. Is it an easy interface? I was trying to gauge what you were doing with it that you could seriously think Gimp is as good as photoshop? A lot of people I know just do very basic things and for those tasks, yeah Gimp's fine once you get past the clunky interface.

For the record my experience is only in manipulating my own photos. Why the hell are you assuming I'm a graphic artist or designer?

And anyway what the fuck is wrong with a camcorder tourist? There's a place for all types in this world. At least your camcorder tourist is out there doing something they enjoy with their lives, you condescending elitist fool. Everyone's entitled to an opinion. Next you'll be saying I shouldn't have commented on chess software cause I'm not a Grandmaster.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

Astronomy software only makes up a small portion of scientific software. Try comparing practically any CAD, EDA or mathematics software.

Hence why I'm saying use the right tool for the right job. If all the software written for discipline X is on platform Y, don't use platform Z instead because you're a zealot, or you deserve what you get.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[alexmat]

Yes I drive a car, but the solution to the damage it causes to both the environment and global political landscape is not to revert back to "horse and buggy". It's about taking an honest look at our society and where it's headed. Like you said, we don't all live in a vacum. Our actions have global consequences. I'm not telling you to live a certain way, rather I was hoping to let you know there might be a better long term solutions that makes life harder in the short term.

Fat Mike said it best in a song:
From: "The Irrationality Of Rationality" by NOFX

Dan, the company man, felt loyalty to the core.
After 16 years of service, and a family to support
He actually started to believe the weaponry and chemicals were for national defense.
'Cause Danny had a mortgage, and a boss to answer to.
The guilty don't feel guilty, they learn not to.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[colinrichardday]

TeX/LaTeX could do a lot of what Microsoft Word does, although the user interface might require some learning.

There's always LyX.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[The MESMERIC]

lol. So I was spot on then? that was funny!

Gimp 2.x has a very intuitive interface more than
many Windows applications (there's always the right-click to bail you out) - but have you at least tried it? no

"Using Linux for running office software is like using a saw to hammer in a nail."

"And I'm sorry but gimp is a poor replacement for Photoshop/Paintshop pro."

Think before you speak - or better research
You can only have a valid opinion through proper experience and exposure.
Spreading myths won't help anyone.

Lastly, I am not going to comment about chess - it is not my place to ;)

Re:Right tool for the right job

[fishbowl]

The comment I was responding to mentioned chess specifically as an application for which Windows supposedly surpasses Linux, that's all. I don't think it's a big deal, but I also thought it was incorrect. And yeah, any chess program since Sargon I has been able to beat the pants off *me.* I'm better at darts than any computer though.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[MobyTurbo]

The many tasks where there isn't equivalent software under Linux. Can you beat Chessmaster, Fritz, Chessbase, Shredder, Tasc Tutor for chess on Linux? Certainly not.

xboard is an x11 front end to professional-quality chess engines such as Crafty and GNU Chess as well as some of the chess servers that attract the best players.

Yes, xboard might not have feature X of the software you listed, but you did say "there just isn't equivalent software". In the hands of a good chess player xboard is more than adaquate.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

Yes I have tried Gimp 2 you self righteous fool. Stop telling me what I do and don't know, and stop telling me what my opinion should be based on what you know.

Gimp 2 when compared to Photoshop is sub-standard. That's my opinion. I have not used Gimp extensively because when I tried it out I found it to be horrendous. I had no such issue with Photoshop.

Furthermore I have friends with much more exposure to graphics software that have tried both bits of software and I've found that none of them prefer Gimp. What do you think that the whole world is stupid and is going to ignore software that's better than Photoshop just out of spite? People will jump on a more capable product, particularly where their livelihood depends on it.

It makes you a laughing stock to make assumptions about what I have or haven't done and what I know. Do you even have the brain cells to understand the irony involved here? You're claiming to be more knowledgble than me without knowing anything about me. By your own statements you should stop sniffing glue long enough to do some research about what my experience is with graphics software before having an opinion of it.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

-------

Yes I have tried Gimp 2 you self righteous fool. Stop telling me what I do and don't know, and stop telling me what my opinion should be based on what you know.

Gimp 2 when compared to Photoshop is sub-standard. That's my opinion. I have not used Gimp extensively because when I tried it out I found it to be horrendous. I had no such issue with Photoshop.

Furthermore I have friends with much more exposure to graphics software that have tried both bits of software and I've found that none of them prefer Gimp. What do you think that the whole world is stupid and is going to ignore software that's better than Photoshop just out of spite? People will jump on a more capable product, particularly where their livelihood depends on it.

It makes you a laughing stock to make assumptions about what I have or haven't done and what I know. Do you even have the brain cells to understand the irony involved here? You're claiming to be more knowledgble than me without knowing anything about me. By your own statements you should stop sniffing glue long enough to do some research about what my experience is with graphics software before having an opinion of it.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[Anonymous Coward]

If you had learned Latex to submit astronomy papers, you would have found that the journals you were submitting to provided a standard template that you could apply to your document. Why would the journal want you deciding the layout of an article that they are publishing? WYSIWYG editors have created people like you who think that layout is a key feature of every single document. There are times when the layout is the point of the document or at least an important part, such as for marketing purposes as you suggest. For most serious documents, though, the layout is not important. No, it really isn't. Nope, people really don't care if your figures are positioned exactly where you think they should be.

The controls that have been put in front of us by WYSIWYG editors have convinced us that we are authors, editors, and typographers. By now, billions of dollars have been spent thanks to this philosophy. Nobody uses the standard headings in Word, nobody understands the point of document structure, and everybody produces unique-looking documents. You should be able to set the font list in Word through group policies. It might stop people from using Comic Sans on their reports to management. WYSIWYG editors are great, don't get me wrong, but they sure have changed document production for the worse. By the way, you don't purchase Latex; it has always been free software.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't it more of a sad fact that MS Word is considered "really excelent" (sic) for writing short memos when the same thing can be accomplished in Wordpad or maybe even Notepad? Oops, forgot about the spell checker that everyone is now dependent upon. But really, Word is not worth the price of admission for what 99% of people do with it. Then you have the people who try to do everything with Word and end up collectively costing companies millions per year. I wonder what the founders of IT think about all of this?

Re:Right tool for the right job

[megabyte405]

Plug: AbiWord (free word processor for windows, linux, mac os x, you name it) www.abisource.com

Leave Word and never look back.

Disclaimer: I help out with light work for AbiWord sometimes.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[1lus10n]

"I wonder just how people who think its just as good as Microsoft Office use Microsoft Office, because I've found it to be useless."

Well I am going to take a stab in the dark here .... Perhaps they use MS office the same way that you use OOo. Without knowing how to use it.

I have never had any need to use either on a regular basis but given the limited experience with both they seem eerily similar in function and form.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[The MESMERIC]

I make no claims about having more or less knowledge than you - but if you have some deep seated complexes - that is your problem.

"What do you think that the whole world is stupid and is going to ignore software that's better than Photoshop just out of spite?"

I am finding it hard to break the logic of your sentence. What are you trying to say?
If you are saying I am condemning the use of Photoshop over Gimp then I guess you don't read my posts.

I wrote:
I don't deny however that Photoshop itself is an extremely professional state-of-the-art software and that in many fronts it still beats Gimp (as I keep hearing: CMYK / Pantone profiles).
But there is much more to Gimp than people are vaguely aware.

Now you stating Linux is useless for running office software AND
Saying Gimp is a poor replacement for also .. PaintShop Pro? Hardly makes me the laughing stock. Perhaps you should tell that to the guys at Pixar studio they seriously ought to consider PaintShop Pro lol.

Also, I do not believe Gimp on Windows is a valid test either. Cygwin ports are horrible. It's like me trying to judge Macromedia Dreamweaver from its Linux port on Wine.

Conclusion, your experience and knowledge (or lack of thereof) is only evident by the lameness of your statements. Give it up Bozo, dont get all wound up pressing the submit twice. Next thing you will be having palpitations.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[1lus10n]

Well that of course depends on what exactly they are typing. Obviously sitting anyone down at any of the solutions available without teaching them what they are doing will lead to some mess-ups.

I have spoken to two lawyers that use OOo. Not including the lawyers who are involved in opensource.

Most people have a major problem paying $500 dollars to use something they know. Especially if 'knowing it' is the sole reason for paying $500. When they can learn something new and save that $500 dollars.

P.S. Please spare me the lectures about 'time is money'. Cause its complete crap. The average person spends so much time doing useless shit that bitching about reading a few docs is like pissing into the wind.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

I had the templates, and I had the software in place and I'm very thankful I didn't have to touch them because when I had a play with them I found the whole system to be archaic.

As for people like me that think layout is a key feature of every single document guess what in a lot of situations its legislated. "For most serious documents, though, layout is not important" means "layout isn't important to me and never has been and therefore I'm better than you". Grow up. People use their word processors to do a huge variety of things and in some of them layout is critical.

Some of us want to be "authors, editors and typographers". For those people, Word processors empower them to do what they want. That's what computers are about for most people - empowering them to do the things they want to and need to do. They have little interest in the technology for its own sake.

As for nobody using standard headings in word, I don't know where you've worked and played but there are a lot of places where not doing this would be laughed at. You're being very presumptuous to think that "nobody understand the point of document structure". On this point I'm guessing you've overly generalized. In any case that is an education issue not a software feature issue.

You certainly don't purchase Latex. You spend time a lot of time configuring it etc. though so a lot of people spend money on a front end of some description. Some of them are even WYSIWYG.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

I have never had any need to use either on a regular basis but given the limited experience with both they seem eerily similar in function and form.

Well I've had to use MS Office extensively throughout my career where as you're saying you've never had to use either. Tell me again how this makes you more qualified to decide if Open Office is a replacement for MS Office than I?

I tried Open Office for long enough to see that key features were laking. I also had problems (especially with layout) opening Open Office generated documents in MS Office, something that all my colleagues would have had to do unless they all switched at the same time.

It sounds to me like you don't have a need for an office suit but you're perfectly content to lecture me on which on I should use despite knowing nothing about my needs or its suitability.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

I make no claims about having more or less knowledge than you

What a complete and utter crock of shit! You basically called me clueless without checking your facts. Just look at earlier posts.

I am finding it hard to break the logic of your sentence. What are you trying to say?

I'm sorry that was way too far above your head. I'll try to simplify it for you: If a product comes out that's better than Photoshop, and its free, people will jump ship. This may take a little time, but it will happen. More likely, Adobe would be forced to make changes to the product to compete because I don't see them giving up their dominance in that market.

Paintshop pro is a different story. Now it's been aquired by Corel it may be dead. However it is a very capable product. Versions 8 and 9 are quite powerful. Not quite as much as Photoshop, but they still beat the Gimp.

Also, I do not believe Gimp on Windows is a valid test either. Cygwin ports are horrible. It's like me trying to judge Macromedia Dreamweaver from its Linux port on Wine.

So now I have to change operating systems or I'm comparing a horrible port. Are you listening to yourself? I know a lot of good reasons to run Linux but so I can replace Photoshop with Gimp? That's insane man. Also consider that more professional graphic artists also have other software running on Windows and Mac. Do you think they're going to dump it all to go Linux?


Conclusion, your experience and knowledge (or lack of thereof) is only evident by the lameness of your statements. Give it up Bozo, dont get all wound up pressing the submit twice. Next thing you will be having palpitations.

That completely contradicts the very first comment of your post. One minute you're saying you're not making claims about my knowledge or lack thereof and the next I'm a lame bozo with no experience or knowledge. Which is it? Just like one minute you're talking about Gimp in general and the next you're saying don't compare the Windows ports. Am I suppose to be able to read your mind? At least try to stay consistent in your statements otherwise you're just RANTING.

As for pressing submit twice, I'm so sorry your royal magesty, I shall never make such a terrible mistake again. It is the crime of the century and the sign of a weak mind.

If I send you ten cents, will you go buy yourself a clue? Oh wait, you're not worth 10 cents.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[1lus10n]

Pull your head out of your ass you self indulgent jackass. I was merely making a recomendation. I know nothing more about your needs than you know about anyone else's yet you were making the EXACT same type of recomendation.

You claim features are lacking ? Like what ? I have had to use both, not extensivly (ie day to day) but I most certainly have had to deal with them repeatedly. Both of them are bloated pieces of shit. Neither one is cross-compatible, at least not as much as they should be.

If you have enough time to stress over a fucking office suite, and bitch about a column not lining up right - your job is fucking useless, and you probably are to.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[The MESMERIC]

I make no claims about having more or less knowledge than you [me]
+ You basically called me clueless without checking your facts [you]
= .. could have meant I am clueless than you? Couldn't it?

So why not have gone for that instead?

It could have meant that summing up all other knowledge and skillsets (that you may or may not possess) => you could end up being more *superior* - right?

But no - you choose to go for a "syousef is inferior" deduction. Again I can't help you with your complexes.

Do you think they're going to dump it all to go Linux?

No, nor have I once suggested that.
All I am saying it that:

1. Gimp is a powerful and capable product that deserves merit - and it can be used by professionals such it was in the case of Hollywood animators.
2. To slag off Gimp because of a quick test-drive on Window is *not* valid. Gimp's powerful and natural ease is only truly felt when running under a *NIX
3. You dont have to convert to any operating system - in fact Microsoft Windows fits your profile just fine ;)
4. Never have I suggested people to drop Photoshop for Gimp - good God!

(fuck me - labelling you *thick* is in overstatement - *dense* is more appropriate!)

Are you that clumsy in chess also?
But then again there are those we call the stupid savant.

Man, you *may* possess a lot of hidden talents there - but when it comes to being a normal thinking human being (wisdom if you will) you are indeed a Bozo.
Bet you annoy the hell out of those close you.
Always wanting to show how much you know and the poor things have to put up with it.
It just so aptly fits your persona.
Bet you suffer from deep halitosis which makes their experience even more excruciating.

Your IQ, or your chess ranking are hardly parameters in making you an admirable human being. You may indeed shine ... but then again so many sociopaths do in their own La-la world.

If I send you ten cents, will you go buy yourself a clue? Oh wait, you're not worth 10 cents.

There. See - you did it again mr.bedouin.
- I mean how can I not call you lame when you opt for such a girly statement?
Who taught you that one? Your niece?
Quite embarrasing I'd say .. lol

--

PS: You didn't press the submit button twice - Slashdot won't let you submit multiple posts.
You were probably drunk and had multiple copies of the same text flying about - tut!tut!

I raised it because I knew you would come up with a *weak* excuse ... shows you really don't care about facts but protecting your own pitiful self.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

I love your attitude. Paraphrased it is: I don't use the software and don't need features, but I'll make a recommendation anyway. If you need a certain set of features, or you need to do something accurately in your job it is uselss and you are too.

And I'm the self indulgent jackass huh? Oh yeah I'll take your recommendation.

You'd last all of 2 minutes in any job I've held.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[syousef]

fuck me - labelling you *thick* is in overstatement - *dense* is more appropriate!

Thanks but no thanks.

- I mean how can I not call you lame when you opt for such a girly statement?
Who taught you that one? Your niece?

Oh yes, you're the mature one.

You're right and like I'm wrong and like I should stop using Photoshop because like Gimp is totally bitchin' dude and so much better than Photoshop. Happy?

1) I have no interest in rebooting to Linux or running VMWare just to run Gimp under Linux
2) Gimp is no substitute for Photoshop, even running under Linux. I'm not the only one who thinks so.
3) I'm not saying Gimp isn't worthwhile. My personal feeling is that it isn't all it could be, but its an excellent open source project. There just happens to be much better commercial software available, so stop pushing Gimp. (Our whole argument commenced with you saying that Gimp was a perfectly good replacement for Photoshop - look back you inconsistent prat).

I'm not even going to bother reading your response. You're inconsistent, immature and couldn't win a debate with a dense 3 year old.

Re:Right tool for the right job

[The MESMERIC]

But of course you are going to bother ;)

Our whole argument commenced with you saying that Gimp was a perfectly good replacement for Photoshop .. please elicit with quotes.

You're right and like I'm wrong and like I should stop using Photoshop because like Gimp ..

- No! You would be insane in switching over and I am not being sarcastic.
I don't and wouldn't recommend Gimp to anyone ever specially with Photoshop experience.
Specially because they have to first migrate to Linux.

Now, I said I personally preferred Gimp over Photoshop, but that is only because I became used to it.
And unlike many I know that what is good for me - its not necessarily good for the rest.
I am very open-minded.

I prefer Linux and yet I recommend Macs, because I know people are different and the configuration aspects of Linux while it brings another edge will be downright boring if not frustrating for most.

Some situations I believe people shouldn't even migrate at all but stick to Windows - gamers for instance.

... and couldn't win a debate with a dense 3 year old.

There, you did it once again *sigh*

Re:Right tool for the right job

[1lus10n]

Apparently no job you have ever held intails answering questions. Or reading enlish.

So your right I wouldnt last two minutes. I wouldnt waste my fucking time taking the job in the first place.

Re:At least what apps I needed available on linux

[1lus10n]

Can't speak for everyone ... but even way back when I was using windows I only had 5 or 6 games. They are all sitting next to me, and half of them run better under wine than natively on windows. Dont laugh, its true. The only one that doesnt run is Age Of Empires. Although I am sure if I wanted to fiddle with it ..... I could make it work.

At this point I would guess that 50% of all major PC games run fine either natively (ID games, UT etc) or through wine. Given the target market and the other advantages using linux thats a good enough statistic for now.

Rule of thumb, don't listen to Linux users when...

[grumbel]

Rule of thumb, don't listen to Linux users when you want to know how good or bad it compares to Windows or other operating systems. I mean when I read:

"Michael Stutz has used Linux exclusively for over a decade."

and then:

"Q: Do you think that Linux has enough applications that people can completely leave Windows behind?

A: Absolutely"

and then

"Q: Is there anything you need to run Windows for?

A: ..I refer to the area of e-mail viruses - they just don't make them for Linux like they do for Windows...."

Its clear that this man has really no clue at all. His Windows knowledge seems to come directly from the yellow press and his Linux knowledge seems pretty biased, after all if you use it for ten years exclusivly you might actually think that some of its issue just have to be this way and couldn't be solved otherwise. And neither seems he have much clue about what people are actually doing with Windows today. After all I think he his quite right with his limited viewpoint, todays Linux doesn't compare that badly against a ten year old Windows, sad truth is that Windows and its application has moved a lot forward, while Linux is still 10 years behind.

Linux has its niches and areas where it can show its benefits, but simply claiming that its a perfect and complete replacment for Windows today couldn't further away from reality and is only damaging Linux fame. Lies don't help, be honest about what Linux can do and especially about what it can't do, then you might have a chance that people will continue to listen to you and not just turn back and think of you as some Linux-fanboy.

Cooking??

[northcat]

Woah, I read the title and actually thought that someone put together a cooking 'machine' driven by Linux and thought to myself "omfg, w00t!!".

Arrogant

[_pruegel_]

The whole interview is extremely arrogant but this statement statements just beats it all (and besides it is also wrong):

the best minds in software today are working with Linux and have been for years

Any examples maybe?

Re:Arrogant

[SharpFang]

Steve Ballmer!
He works really hard on Linux. That is, on destroying Linux.

Re:Arrogant

[_pruegel_]

Yeah but would you really think Balmer is part of the best minds in software? I mean

Developers! Developers! Developers!

!?

He's overselling...

[Vengeance]

From TFA:

Our cities are decaying and dangerous. The implications for the younger generation are terrifying. But with Linux, we could turn all of that around!

Hey, I'm a big fan of Linux, I'm writing this from Konqueror, but I think he is stretching just a bit, don't you?

Somebody give me software...

[Anonymous Coward]

Somebody give me software to run these on Linux, and I'll leave the NT4.0 oh-so-gladly.
It's my job. Boss doesn't mind what kind of software I run. The upgrades for the software I use are like 1500 euro for the CAD/CAM program, 800 Euro for the machine driver. Give me a Linux alternative of comparable functionality, not even free, more cost-efficient, and I'll switch any day. For now I'm stuck with WinNT + Cygwin.

Re:Somebody give me software...

[The MESMERIC]

Man
The company is German !!
Just write to them and they will port it.
I mean its one country that port their software to Linux easily without a fuss:

SoftMaker
MainConcept
RibbonSoft

Cooking With Loon Eggs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Loon egg omelette, Loon eggs over-easy, Boiled loon eggs, etc.

These are some of the wonderful recipes you'll find in this deluxe 3-volume set, Cooking With Loon Eggs.

Only three small payments of $19.95 (plus $59.34 shipping and handling) and Cooking With Loon Eggs can be yours!

Plus, we'll throw in as a bonus if you order tonight, this Linux-powered toaster. It makes perfect toast every time, the perfect complement for your loon egg breakfast!

Loved the first edition

[falkryn]

I've read a good chunk of the first one, and felt it's really one of the better Linux titles out there, bonus that it's based off of Debian GNU/Linux. Strong emphasis on doing things via command line, but well written even for someone who might usually shy away from that type of thing (not me though har, har!! ;-)

Anyhow, if I remember right the author had even released the first edition under a free license, and you were able to find it published online as well. (http://www.dsl.org/cookbook/cookbook_toc.html)
I wonder about this one...

No pro sound apps for Linux

[blueworm]

Barely any commercial vendors write VST plugins or multitrack host environments for them.

Examples of things you can only find on Windows/Mac:

Cubase (www.steinberg.net)
Logic (www.apple.com/logic)
ReFX (www.refx.net)
Albino2 (www.linplug.com)
NI: (www.native-instruments.com)

And these are just a few major examples. You have to convince these types of companies to port to Linux before you'll draw the professional audio crowd. I wish it could happen!

Re:No pro sound apps for Linux

[diprovo]

What about Rosegarden?

Re:No pro sound apps for Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, these are prosumer apps at best. Pro's use PT or tape, many are hoping ardour and decent hardware support will change that. We have a tech on staff to maintain our tape machines, console, outboard and vintage gear. On occasion we have even scratch built our own hardware.

It's important that we are free to maintain and customize our software in the same way we customize our other studio equipment, that is the mark of pro industrial equipment in almost every field.

Re:No pro sound apps for Linux

[fishbowl]

> What about Rosegarden?

Rosegarden and Muse are quite nice. And they may even be suitable alternatives for some users, but there is a long way to go before they are an alternative to Samplitude, Sequoia, or Nuendo. Never mind ProTools, which has a sucky user interface but does have some very important features for production.

PARENT IS REASONABLE

[Anonymous Coward]

oversensitive idiots.

*shrug.*

Re:PARENT IS REASONABLE

[The MESMERIC]

That is why I use my metamoderation only to rescue Trolls/Flamebaits that never were.
I encourage everyone to do the same.
People mod posts by their title - they dont even read the rest.

Re:At least what apps I needed available on linux

[Lerxst Pratt]

Chat - no comments ;)

Try Kopete. From the webpage:

Kopete is an instant messenger supporting AIM, ICQ, MSN, Yahoo, Jabber, IRC, Novell GroupWise Messenger, Lotus SameTime*, and more. It is designed as a flexible and extensible multi-protocol system using plugins. (* in CVS)

It has always worked great for me.

Re:At least what apps I needed available on linux

[kie]

The one application that I would like to see on linux is
Chinese handwriting recognition

(there are plenty for windows and a few for mac for example see worldlanguage.com but NONE for linux)

There are keyboard input methods that works under linux, and i use emacs for keyboard entry, which is a partial solution for me but not perfect.

obviously i would prefer to see some software like this under gpl but i am prepared to pay for a commercial offering

i think that such software would have the potential to greatly enhance linux uptake in China as well (think aunt tilly in china)

Flash? Not good enough. GIMP?

[JohnBaleshiski]

Flash for Linux, DrawSWF, Spalah Flash, SWF Tools gAnim8, and OpenOffice all do swf with varying degrees of utility.

I work as a web developer for a marketing agency, and I have the only Linux workstation in the building. I also have a Windows workstation, so it is very easy for me to compare both platforms.

Evolution works well even for corporate email. I use GAIM on both machines, play MP3's on the Linux box, and do most of my work in vi (yet there are other editors that work well, I just like vi).

There are 4 applications holding me back from being able to ditch my Windows machine. Two of those may work well with WINE, but I have not had the time to test them.

Internet Explorer: It is a _MUST_ that I test my code in IE, even though my main browser is Firefox. This may work in WINE.

Photoshop 7: I heard this also works in WINE.

Visual Studio/C#: Mono has made good strides and I look forward to being able to use it, but my work with it deals with a large production environment for a major company and I cannot afford to have something not work just because I decided I wanted to develop on Linux. I'm waiting for Mono V3.

Flash: Yes, other tools exist, but none compare to Macromedia's Flash, and I need to be able to compile Flash 6+ with full support. The tools are not there yet.

That being said, I use my Linux box a good 70% of the time.

Re:Flash? Not good enough. GIMP?

[njyoder]

I find it hard to believe anything works well in WINE, let alone Photoshop. I tried mIRC, a simple IRC client and not only did it not render it properly, the GUI rendering was choppy and incredibly slow. It may run the executable itself fast (which I'm not even sure of), but the interface rendering stuff is god awful slow and unacceptable.

Re:Flash? Not good enough. GIMP?

[alan_dershowitz]

I have heard complaints about Photoshop 7 in WINE, relating to layer rendering, font placement and unopenable dialog boxes. I don't think I would trust it under those conditions.

I personally have additional problems. I use a Wacom artpad, and I've been able to find no information on whether compiling X with pad support, and WINE and Photoshop will all work together, with full pressure and tilt support. It's a LOT of work to recompile and install and troubleshoot all that shit just to find out if it MIGHT work.

I suspect a large number of people are in a similar situation. A lot of people working with photoshop have artpads, but who knows if it works? I can't find anyone who knows, and I've asked in all the right places.

As for IE, I wouldn't trust IE under WINE to give good results. If you have XP, you can use rdesktop to connect to your windows machine to run IE, that's what I do when I really need it. You can't get rid of your windows desktop, but you can hide it somewhere and just use rdesktop to connect to it.

Re:Flash? Not good enough. GIMP?

[grimdonkey]

Why the hell would anyone want to run mIRC under WINE?

Re:Flash? Not good enough. GIMP?

[njyoder]

1) You're missing the point. 2) Because I like it.

Re:Flash? Not good enough. GIMP?

[testerus]

I can't find anyone who knows, and I've asked in all the right places. Did you ask here: http://www.codeweavers.com/site/compatibility/brow se/name?app_id=8;forum=1 ?

This troll modded "Interesting?!!?"

[bach37]

Hello moderators!? What the heck?

Re:This troll modded "Interesting?!!?"

[Anonymous Coward]

What?

So any post with which you disagree should be modded "Troll" I suppose.

You stupid asshat!

Re:This troll modded "Interesting?!!?"

[syousef]

Yeah that's right. Anyone who says Linux isn't the bestest most nerdiest operating system that can do anything and everything for you and who needs stinkin' windows anyway! is a troll right?

Grow up!

Re:This troll modded "Interesting?!!?"

[bach37]

Uh, let me quote:
"Windows is good for:
- Writing documents (Word, Excel etc. suck but they're still better than anything else I've seen)
- Presentations, Graphics, Video editing (though plenty would argue Mac's better still)."

Okay, next LUG meeting I go to, I'll have to spread the bad news to everyone that Linux isn't good for writing documents, presentations, graphics, or video editing. If you actually would read the ridiculous claims by the parent poster, you would understand. I'm not saying Linux is the bestest most nerdiest operating system that can do anything and everything. I'm saying his claims are pretty ridiculous. Use whatever OS you want, but just don't make stupid claims.

Now for some sarcasm:

Windows is good for:
- spreading viruses
- overcharging for software
- the best web browser: IE
- updating a few critical holes in the OS months late

Linux:
- not for writing documents- gosh no!
- not for doing anything productive at all
- and it's too cheap; it must be crap.

Re:This troll modded "Interesting?!!?"

[syousef]

And because I have a different opinion to yourself I must be a troll who should obviously be modded down otherwise the moderators are asleep at the wheel. That was what exactly what you were saying, right?

Twit.

Re:This troll modded "Interesting?!!?"

[bach37]

Twit.

Okay, I believe it was you who said something about growing up?

If you didn't know it, we are in the LINUX section of slashdot. Yes, believe it or not, there are going to be MANY Linux users reading and posting here. So if you have a PRO-MS/anti-Linux opinion, take a big guess on what kind of responses you'll get.....

Re:This troll modded "Interesting?!!?"

[syousef]

I was just stating my opinion, and in my opinion you are indeed a twit for deciding I'm a troll for stating a different opinion.

Re:This troll modded "Interesting?!!?"

[arashi no garou]

Twits...Trolls....

Can't we all just get along?

*ducks*

Re:This troll modded "Interesting?!!?"

[syousef]

Ducks? Where? Quack Quack!! :-)

From the article..

[matt-fu]

Is there anything you need to run Windows for?

Yes, there is an area affecting business and home use where Linux is greatly deficient, and I see no solution coming at all. I refer to the area of e-mail viruses - they just don't make them for Linux like they do for Windows. Same with a lot of those crippling meltdowns and system errors. If you want a blue screen of death freeze-up, you pretty much have to run Windows to get it.

Way to promote your book. I reluctantly have a Windows box, but it does none of the things described above.

If this is any indication of how the book is going to read, I'm almost embarassed to have my Windows user friends run across it. The author could have parlayed this question into a useful answer, but his FUD tells me absolutely nothing about how Linux is able to get over some of the other hurdles which keep Unix lovers from dumping our Windows platforms altogether, such as driver issues, games, and out of the box media playing.

I hate to write the book off entirely based on an interview, but this platform bashing Linux evangelism is of no use to anyone who is past high school age.

Re:From the article..

[Michael Ross]

Amen. One reason Stutz may have given his non-answer, is that it avoids consideration of those areas where Linux unfortunately does not appear to provide applications. I would like to switch over to Linux from Windows, but will never be able to do so until there is a high quality speech recognition program that runs on Linux. Right now, NaturallySpeaking is not available for Linux, and the manufacturer has no plans to port it over.

at first look...

[Ravenrage]

at first look i thought that linus was putting out a cook book... damn now what can i do with all the heat my p4 lets off.....?:(

Don't Forget Power Management

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, linux is great and I use it at school/work all the time for CAD software, office programs, and the like. But have you ever tried setting it up on a laptop? It installs fine but getting decent power management with recompiling things into the kernel or messing with some drivers is near impossible. I easily get almost an hour more out of my T41 in Windows than in Linux. And don't even get me started on trying to get my wireless drivers to work reliably. Linux has a long way to go here to catch up in the mobile market.

Re:Don't Forget Power Management

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know how much research you did prior to installing Linux on your laptop but there is a wealth of information which would help you get 'acpi' and wireless up and running on your laptop.
linux-on-laptop.com is a good place to start.

Re:Don't Forget Power Management

[Pugflop]

Not to add a plug, but FreebSD 5.3 works flawlessly on my laptop. ACPI works awesome - when I run Fluxbox, my fan is rarely on.

Welcome to the B&W World of Computing...

[endofoctober]

After having read the interview and a few reviews on Amazon about the book, I have to say it sounds like something I'd buy.

I should say "despite the interview", though. LW needs to vet their questions more closely. If "Do you think that Linux is just for home users?" slips through the process, it really cheapens the article in the eyes of knowledgeable readers. I've read some of Kevin Bedell's other work, and this just isn't up to his usual standards.

What I find most objectionable, though, is the author's sweeping statements about what users need, especially home users. The author may not have "...run a proprietary OS in over a decade", but I'd bet that his experience is not the common experience. Does the author think that people who play games could make the switch and not look back? True, these days there are more game choices for Linux, but Linux users face the same problem that Mac users do - few companies take the time to port games to a small segment of users because it's just not feasible...yet.

I am a fan of Linux, truly, and I want to see it succeed because of its utility, quality and especially because of its community-driven development process, but I think there's room for more than one "tool" in users' toolboxes as far as operating systems go. I believe that will have to be the "way things are" until the entire software world has a bottom-line reason to code for Linux.

Brio Plugin

[g0ld-miner]

Anyone ever try to get the Brio (insight ?) plugin working on linux... I can get it to startup under wine/netscape but dialog widows are not viewable.

Cooking with AMD/P4 on Linux

[barath_s]

Bah ! Given the power dissipated. This might have been more useful. Among the life-saving tips : When stranded in a desert of cubicledom, with only your trusty P4, ramen and water how to make life sustaining chow ... Other topics :why cooking on AMD/P4 on Linux is more flaverful than cooking on AMD/P4 on windows ? (which cooks really dater)

Re:At least what apps I needed available on linux

[Anonymous Coward]

...too busy playing everquest to care.

I did buy doom3, now all I need to do is buy a new card and I'm good to go.

Cooking?

[accessdeniednsp]

mmmmmm bacon.....

Tax Software

[ediron2]

And we're back to this fundamental need on Linux:

I still can't do tax software on linux. Heck, I'd be happy if someone managed to create tex or pdf forms I could fill in. But no-oo!

Web interfaces don't work, because I have a consulting S-Corp form or three, but last time I checked, even the 1040 long form and schedule C's (which I couldn't live without) aren't handled by the web-based tax tools. Besides, I'm utterly freaked about a website hosting my tax data.

Since I'm pretty sick of perpetually nursing along my home computers anyway, Mac Mini here I come...

personally...

[advocate_one]

I find penguins to be rather tough and greasy... ;-)

Thanks...

[msimm]

My bad. Clear as mud indeed!

Subtitle

[Anonymous Coward]

48 Flavors of maruchan.

Take the interview with a grain of salt

[serutan]

The United States is no longer a world leader in art and culture. The most popular word to describe its citizens today is "consumer." Our cities are decaying and dangerous. The implications for the younger generation are terrifying. But with Linux, we could turn all of that around!

Hell-loo?

Fortunately you can benefit from this book even if you don't share the author's view that Linux is the key to the survival of American civilization. I found the 1st ed very helpful in my transition to using Linux as my main system (although I still keep Windows around for reasons other than downloading viruses and worms).

Problems with using linux exclusively

[iconoclast88]

I have been trying to use linux alone at home without a problem. At work, Its a different issue. Of course there are 3rd party windows programs that are inescable save companies like netraverse and codeweavers. My problem has been PPTP and VPN client software. pptpconfig by James Cameron http://pptpclient.sourceforge.net/, is a start, but not a good solution. It esentially doesn't work for most VPN servers that aren't a microsoft product. So for that reason, I can't depend on linux exclusively, nor can I sell the idea to my boss very well. Wish I could, Josh

Re:Problems with using linux exclusively

[Anonymous Coward]

What idea, exactly, do you want to sell to your boss? "Linux" is not an idea to sell to the boss. Linux is just a tool. If you have a business need that happens to be perfectly suited for a Linux-based solution, you will have a great case to use it at work. Running Linux for the sake of running Linux is not a good use of company resources, but quickly solving a particular problem with no licensing cost may be. No single platform offers the ability to solve every problem in an efficient manner, and in that respect you may be misguided in wanting to run Linux exclusively. Just some thoughts.

Re:At least what apps I needed available on linux

[vivekg]

I use irc clients and zinc (yahoo chat client) even some time Gaim

installing RedHat with new drivers

[jayster]

I don't know if this is the right place to post this kind of stuff, but I had some trouble doing a Red Hat 9 install that involved not having the drivers for the hard drive on the install discs. The new drive was IDE-SATA, and my install discs couldn't see it. Any thoughts? Where should I post about this to get expert advice?

I was trying to install RedHat 9.0 onto a PC that had a SATA drive (the latest kind of IDE?) and there was no driver on the install disc, so it couldn't find a drive. We tried downloading SATA drivers for Linux and for RedHat and putting them on a CD (burning from Windoze XP). We unpacked the driver files and everything, but the installer (Anaconda) didn't seem to be able to find the stuff on the CD.

We tried the linux dd startup to the install, and it asked for us to insert a CD with the drivers on it, but it never seemed to read it. Either the disc didn't have what it was looking for, or the disc was the wrong format (Windoze XP) or the installer was busted, or something.

Has anybody else had this kind of trouble? Has anybody ever had to install some drivers during the install of RedHat 9? Does it work or not? What does Anaconda need to see on the disc in order to know that there are driver files there? What is it supposed to say when it finds them (or doesn't)?

We just ended up stuck in a "press OK when you put in the disk" or "go back" loop, i.e., we'd press "OK" and nothing would happen, and "going back" didn't go anywhere.

Please help because I may be upgrading some PCs and getting new motherboards that have these new SATA drive buses on them, and I'll be screwed if I can't get my RedHad distribution to load the driver right from the start.

Kevin Bedell at SCALE 3x in Los Angeles

[Anonymous Coward]

Kevin Bedell will be speaking at SCALE 3x. His talk is on "How Open Source is Transforming Corporate Software Development". SCALE will be held at the Los Angeles Convention Center on Feb 12-13, 2005. In addition to Kevins seminar there will be over 25 other talks/panels. Other speakers include Jon "maddog" Hall (Linux International), Larry McVoy (BitKeeper), and Kevin Foreman (Real Networks).

Re:Kevin Bedell at SCALE 3x in Los Angeles

[Anonymous Coward]

For a free exhibit hall pass use the promo code "free" or for a discount off a full access pass use the code "newsp"