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If The Problem Persists, Reboot The Car
prostoalex writes "Ever-increasing presence of high-tech devices in modern cars is a double-edged sword, the New York Times discovers. Software from different suppliers brings up to some peculiar bugs, such as a heater turning itself on during a hot summer day. In December last year ABI Research estimated that roughly 30% of all warranty issues with new cars were microprocessor- and software-related. The NYT article also quotes an interesting prediction from IBM, saying that by 2010 almost all cars will have the same mechanical systems (hardware), and the differences will be primarily on software level." (That prediction seems as accurate as the IBM prediction that there was a worldwide market for 10 or so computers.)
Reminds me of a joke...
A mechanic, an engineer and a programmer are driving down the road in a car when suddenly it stalls out. The mechanic gets out, checks out the engine and comes back into the car to report that it's going to be a few hours of work to fix it. The engineer leaves the car to check out the problem and comes back to report that he can design a fix that should only take about an hour. Upon hearing that, the programmer says, "Hey, let's first all get out of the car, get back into it and just see if it works then."
I'm a big tall mofo.
by 2010 almost all cars will have the same mechanical systems (hardware), and the differences will be primarily on software level.
At that point, we'll be too distracted by Jupiter turning into a star to really notice.
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Well, some of the GM cars come with the electronic power steering, and they can adjust the feel and feedback with sofeware codes. Maybe this preditcion is not really that far off, at least for the cars that are in the same class to beging with.
In the story in the article the sensor when it went crazy reported 32F/0C instead of reporting that it was broken.
It'd be better if there was an impossibly out of range value like -274C reported when the sensor failed so that the problem would be more clear and could be sorted as a marker value rather than one that requires a response.
Cars getting buggy computers is bad enough. I'm worried about the planes! gives new meaning to "blue screen of death."
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I will NOT pay to bring it to some expensive certified dealership to get my fucking car rebooted.
That would be akin to bringing your computer to M$ and paying them to fix it every time it crashed.
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Personally, I like the way old cars worked. There is no need for a computer in a car. Old cars are easier to fix. They also cost less to fix. They are also immune to electromagnetic pulse should a nuclear bomb go off. Granted, old cars do not have all the fancy navigational equipment and automated devices.
Who needs computerized systems? I'm still driving my Ford Pinto, and it works great without any of those 'electronics' in it.
But in all seriousness, why computerize some of those systems? Analog controls aren't 'bad' per se, and the upshot of digital controls is more precision, which I doubt is needed in a car. I'd be fine with 'relatively warm' than '75 F'.
Coincidentally, the microprocessor is usually freaking expensive to replace. And garage tend to do a lot more 'replace' than 'fix', especially when it involve buggy software.
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If I ever have the time and money I think it would be a cool project to make a car that is almost entirely mechanical. The only electrical parts would be the sound sytem, lights, heat and ac.
The car I grew up with was like this. When it broke down my dad would get out the 500 page maintenance manual (they used to have those things for cars) and fix it himself. Now even mechanics can't fix some cars unless they pay the manufacturer for the 'right' to know how the hell the car's operating system works.
Ever-increasing presence of high-tech devices in modern cars is a double-edged sword, the New York Times discovers.
The problem the NYT is describing here is not high-tech devices. The problem is crappy firmware.
The auto industry is driven by release dates. The release date for the '06 version of your favorite car is already determined by the industry. Doesn't matter if it's not 100%, it ships that day, regardless.
This is not the best environment to create software in. Hence, you get crappy firmware and that's where those 30% of service calls come from. Believe me, if the auto industry wanted to make bullet proof firmware, the tools are out there (think Mars Rover and VxWorks for example). But the service calls cost less than the development effort, and the end result is - crappy firmware.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
1. It will NOT have Windows (tm) anywhere on the vehicle.
2. The hood ornament will be a cute penguin.
3. The first bumper sticker reads "In Soviet Russia..."
4. The second bumper sticker reads "Yes this car is part of a beowulf cluster!"
5. The engine will be listed as a 886 or 986 model, and you'll have a lot of dependencies like fuel versions and so on.
which was supposedly "repaired" by the dealership. 2 days after I picked up my jeep, the check engine light came back on.
Rather than take it in for a $90 diagnostic fee, I found a trick: put in key, turn "on", "off", "on", "off", and finally, "on", and the diagnostic code(s) display in the digital odometer.
Take that code to google, and I found that the jeep had the same problem which was supposedly "repaired".
I took it back in, and mentioned the codes it was showing, and put up a fight with the service manager saying, "No, you will not charge me for the 'diagnostic' check, I already know what it is. It's code ABC and XYZ. Now, fix."
I worked at a dealership back in 1998, right out of High School. I was amazed, on a daily basis, how far computers in cars had come since my 1979 Volvo had been made.
In a lot of cases, we could tell the telemetry on the car in the last week. Also cars adjusting themselves to the driver. (Pretty annoying when you loan your car to your lead foot mate of teenager).
Cars have, without a doubt, come just as far again since then.
I also have to agree that the mechanics of cars won't be seeing too may improvements in the next decade or longer. The real advances will come in fine tuned computer controlling of all the support systems. Fual, air, spark, all adjusted based on temp, humidity, how hard the driver is pushing the car, and many other factors.
I don't see any reason why a straight gas car can't do over 100 MPG, given the right fuel.
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I was on a 7 pm flight this week. We say on the runway for over 2 hours while a computer on the plane was rebooting repeatedly. Finally they rebooting the entire plane, shutting everything off and then bringing the systems back up. That didn't work either. Finally they gave up, said that this had happened early in the day (!) and put us on another plane going to a different city. To make a long story short, I got in at 2 am instead of 8 pm and I could have driven there faster.
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I bought a 2001 Mitsubishi Montero Sport SUV last year, and while it's been a decent, reliable vehicle since then - I kept running into one annoying little issue. The "check engine" light would occasionally come on, for no obvious reason.
The first time, I took it to a local mechanic my family used for years. He checked everything out, reset the code in the computer, charged me about $50, and said "Looks like it's all ok to me!" I argued that the code had to mean something. He merely mumbled something about it being an emissions-related code that must have come on as a fluke, and maybe I just didn't screw my gas cap on tightly enough the last time....
Well, a few months went by, and sure enough, on came the "check engine" light once again. This time, I had a friend reset it with one of those hand-held ECU code retreivers/testers. He looked the error code up in his book, and said it was an "evaporative emissions leak" error. The only thing we could find possibly wrong on the car was an old PCV valve that might have been sticking. I had that replaced, and waited to see if that would help.
About 2 months later, on came the light again. This time, I searched all over the net to try to find out if any other Montero owners had the same issue. Finally, over on mitsubishisucks.com, I found a message thread about the same problem. One guy claimed his SUV kept doing this until the dealership charged him about $150 to "update the firmware in the engine computer". WTF?!? This whole thing is just an issue with buggy firmware, and yet customers are being billed to have it fixed by the dealership!?! Needless to say, I've just learned to reset the stupid code myself and ignore it.
..built today will be serviceable in 20 years? I wonder sometimes. Not that it's representative, but the new BMW 7-series has over 100 motors operating various things (seats, suspension, etc). Will you really be able to keep today's car "vintage" a few decades from now?
Will there someday be money in ripping out all computers in cars and replacing them with simple mechanics?
This stresses hardware a lot.
Since it's diesel, there's no ignition system. It did have an alternator, but really it was just there to charge the battery so the starter motor could run, but it came with a handcrank so that if need be, you could handstart it. I did that once. Painful, but possible.
No engine computer. No electricity needed whatsoever. Everything was mechanical.
The timing was done by a cogged system, so there was no timing belt to break. In fact, the only belt in the entire engine was for the alternator. The water pump was also cogged.
The manual had a succinct sentence in the debugging section: "If the engine is getting clean fuel and air, it must run". This was actually a bit pessimistic; one fellow I knew ran out of fuel a few miles away from home once in a flat calm and ended up pouring a mixture of turpentine and paint thinner into his fuel tank. The diesel fired up and run just fine, albeit a bit smokier than usual.
Anyone who does tech support is aware of how incompetant people can be at times. Here's an email I recieved that sounds like it relates to this topic:
...'
HELPLINE: 'General Motors Helpline, how can I help you?'
CUSTOMER: 'I got in my car and closed the door, and nothing happened!'
HELPLINE: 'Did you put the key in the ignition and turn it?'
CUSTOMER: 'What's an ignition?'
HELPLINE: 'It's a starter motor that draws current from your battery and turns over the engine.'
CUSTOMER: 'Ignition? Motor? Battery? Engine? How come I have to know all of these technical terms just to use my car?'
--------
HELPLINE: 'General Motors Helpline, how can I help you?'
CUSTOMER: 'My car ran fine for a week, and now it won't go anywhere!'
HELPLINE: 'Is the gas tank empty?'
CUSTOMER: 'Huh? How do I know?'
HELPLINE: 'There's a little gauge on the front panel, with a needle, and markings from 'E' to 'F'. Where is the needle pointing?'
CUSTOMER: 'I see an 'E' but no 'F'.'
HELPLINE: 'You see the 'E' and just to the right is the 'F'.
CUSTOMER: 'No, just to the right of the first 'E' is a 'V'.
HELPLINE: 'A 'V'?!?'
CUSTOMER: 'Yeah, there's a 'C', an 'H', the first 'E', then a 'V', followed by 'R', 'O', and 'L'
HELPLINE: 'No, no, no sir! That's the front of the car. When you sit behind the steering wheel, that's the panel I'm talking about.'
CUSTOMER: 'That steering wheel thingy. Is that the round thing that honks the horn?'
HELPLINE: 'Yes, among other things.'
CUSTOMER: 'The needle's pointing to 'E'. What does that mean?'
HELPLINE: 'It means that you have to visit a gasoline vendor and purchase some more gasoline. You can install it yourself, or pay the vendor to install it for you.'
CUSTOMER: 'What? I paid $12,000 for this car! Now you tell me that I have to keep buying more components? I want a car that comes with everything built in!'
------------
HELPLINE: 'General Motors Helpline, how can I help you?'
CUSTOMER: 'Your cars suck!'
HELPLINE: 'What's wrong?'
CUSTOMER: 'It crashed, that's what went wrong!'
HELPLINE: 'What were you doing?'
CUSTOMER: 'I wanted to go faster, so I pushed the accelerator pedal all the way to the floor. It worked for a while, and then it crashed-and now it won't even start up!'
HELPLINE: 'I'm sorry, sir, but it's your responsibility if you misuse the product.'
CUSTOMER: 'Misuse it? I was just following this damned manual of yours. It said to make the car go to put the transmission in 'D' and press the accelerator pedal. That's exactly what I did-now the damn thing's crashed.'
HELPLINE: 'Did you read the entire operator's manual before operating the car sir?'
CUSTOMER: 'What? Of course I did! I told you I did EVERYTHING the manual said and it didn't work!'
HELPLINE: 'Didn't you attempt to slow down so you wouldn't cash?'
CUSTOMER: 'How do you do THAT?'
HELPLINE: 'You said you read the entire manual, sir. It's on page 14. The pedal next to the accelerator.'
CUSTOMER: 'Well, I don't have all day to sit around and read this manual you know.'
HELPLINE: 'Of course not. What do you expect us to do about it?'
CUSTOMER: 'I want you to send me one of the latest versions that goes fast and won't crash anymore!'
---------------
HELPLINE: 'General Motors Helpline, how can I help you?'
CUSTOMER: 'Hi! I just bought my first car, and I chose your car because it has automatic transmission, cruise control, power steering, power brakes, and power door locks.'
HELPLINE: 'Thanks for buying our car. How can I help you?'
CUSTOMER: 'How do I work it?'
HELPLINE: 'Do you know how to drive?'
CUSTOMER: 'Do I know how to what?'
HELPLINE: 'Do you know how to DRIVE?'
CUSTOMER: 'I'm not a technical person! I just want to go places in my car!'
It's a pretty good laugh
Fix Or Repair Daily
It will become
Format Or Reboot Daily.
Have you ever heard of an immobilizer? Many modern car security systems have them. My ex's 1995 Thunderbird has one. Immobilizers make it impossible to start the car if the security system detects a breach. Resetting the security system using the key fob is not usually allowed while it still detects a breach.
What happened here is that the security system was triggered, engaging the immobilizer. The system would only reset once it detected that the car was secure. This is how it is designed to function.
I have a 2002 BMW M5. One time on a trip across the PA turnpike I had an interesting experince.
I stopped at a rest area, shut the car off , went in, but when I went to restart it , the tach showed it was still at idle , and the computer would not let the starter engage.
My (then) 15 y/o kid just shrugged and said , I'd reboot it. Well I disconected the (-) battery cable , waited 20 seconds , put it back on , PROBLEM FIXED.
I wonder if BMW uses WinCE?
Cheers
* Carthago Delenda Est *
Having formerly worked for an auto supplier designing microprocessor-based control modules for the Big Three, I have first-hand experience with microprocessor- and software-related warranty returns. I would not be the least bit surprised if this 30% figure is significantly on the high side. There was one vehicle model in particular that we got an enormous number of warranty returns on. We checked each and every one of them against the mechanic's report and found that less than 2% of the returned modules were actually defective, and the vast majority of those were unrelated to software or the microprocessor. My question, of course, is whether the ABI study would include ALL of those warranty returns, or just the ones that were actually defective.
The real problem was twofold: The module in question stored all of the fault codes for the entire vehicle, and it was located in a place where the mechanic could replace it in less than 10 minutes. As a result, the mechanic would see a fault code, match it up with an easy-to-replace module, and simply replace the module storing the fault code (never mind that the code was generated by, say, the engine controller). We would get the module back as a warranty return, and the mechanic would go on looking for the true source of the problem. I understand that certain expensive components are purposely made horribly difficult to replace so they won't be returned unless there truly is a problem with them.
This is not to say our software was perfect. We once discovered a bug that would reset the odometer if you took the right combination of actions. It was a very unusual combination of actions, but the bug was highly reproducible.