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If The Problem Persists, Reboot The Car
prostoalex writes "Ever-increasing presence of high-tech devices in modern cars is a double-edged sword, the New York Times discovers. Software from different suppliers brings up to some peculiar bugs, such as a heater turning itself on during a hot summer day. In December last year ABI Research estimated that roughly 30% of all warranty issues with new cars were microprocessor- and software-related. The NYT article also quotes an interesting prediction from IBM, saying that by 2010 almost all cars will have the same mechanical systems (hardware), and the differences will be primarily on software level." (That prediction seems as accurate as the IBM prediction that there was a worldwide market for 10 or so computers.)
Reminds me of a joke...
A mechanic, an engineer and a programmer are driving down the road in a car when suddenly it stalls out. The mechanic gets out, checks out the engine and comes back into the car to report that it's going to be a few hours of work to fix it. The engineer leaves the car to check out the problem and comes back to report that he can design a fix that should only take about an hour. Upon hearing that, the programmer says, "Hey, let's first all get out of the car, get back into it and just see if it works then."
I'm a big tall mofo.
by 2010 almost all cars will have the same mechanical systems (hardware), and the differences will be primarily on software level.
At that point, we'll be too distracted by Jupiter turning into a star to really notice.
The coolest voice ever.
Well, some of the GM cars come with the electronic power steering, and they can adjust the feel and feedback with sofeware codes. Maybe this preditcion is not really that far off, at least for the cars that are in the same class to beging with.
In the story in the article the sensor when it went crazy reported 32F/0C instead of reporting that it was broken.
It'd be better if there was an impossibly out of range value like -274C reported when the sensor failed so that the problem would be more clear and could be sorted as a marker value rather than one that requires a response.
Cars getting buggy computers is bad enough. I'm worried about the planes! gives new meaning to "blue screen of death."
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I will NOT pay to bring it to some expensive certified dealership to get my fucking car rebooted.
That would be akin to bringing your computer to M$ and paying them to fix it every time it crashed.
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That prediction seems as accurate as the IBM prediction that there was a worldwide market for 10 or so computers.
This dates back to the 1940's. Back then, this was probably correct.
where's all that Karma?
If IBM is talking about the computer hardware installed, that may be accurate. Every car has voice regonition, GPS, DVD player, etc. Which features are enabled depend on what you paid. We already see this in consumer electronics. But all cars (or even all those in a model) with the same engine and transmission but different tunings? I don't see that.
Personally, I like the way old cars worked. There is no need for a computer in a car. Old cars are easier to fix. They also cost less to fix. They are also immune to electromagnetic pulse should a nuclear bomb go off. Granted, old cars do not have all the fancy navigational equipment and automated devices.
Who needs computerized systems? I'm still driving my Ford Pinto, and it works great without any of those 'electronics' in it.
But in all seriousness, why computerize some of those systems? Analog controls aren't 'bad' per se, and the upshot of digital controls is more precision, which I doubt is needed in a car. I'd be fine with 'relatively warm' than '75 F'.
I opt for the micro kernel version. Stalling on the highway because the radio driver crashed isn't a welcomed prospect.
http://www.watacrackaz.com
Coincidentally, the microprocessor is usually freaking expensive to replace. And garage tend to do a lot more 'replace' than 'fix', especially when it involve buggy software.
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If I ever have the time and money I think it would be a cool project to make a car that is almost entirely mechanical. The only electrical parts would be the sound sytem, lights, heat and ac.
The car I grew up with was like this. When it broke down my dad would get out the 500 page maintenance manual (they used to have those things for cars) and fix it himself. Now even mechanics can't fix some cars unless they pay the manufacturer for the 'right' to know how the hell the car's operating system works.
We'll have geeks with too much time on their hands posting binaries on the net, saying "run this, and your Civic will turn into a Ferrari!"
Ever-increasing presence of high-tech devices in modern cars is a double-edged sword, the New York Times discovers.
The problem the NYT is describing here is not high-tech devices. The problem is crappy firmware.
The auto industry is driven by release dates. The release date for the '06 version of your favorite car is already determined by the industry. Doesn't matter if it's not 100%, it ships that day, regardless.
This is not the best environment to create software in. Hence, you get crappy firmware and that's where those 30% of service calls come from. Believe me, if the auto industry wanted to make bullet proof firmware, the tools are out there (think Mars Rover and VxWorks for example). But the service calls cost less than the development effort, and the end result is - crappy firmware.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
1. It will NOT have Windows (tm) anywhere on the vehicle.
2. The hood ornament will be a cute penguin.
3. The first bumper sticker reads "In Soviet Russia..."
4. The second bumper sticker reads "Yes this car is part of a beowulf cluster!"
5. The engine will be listed as a 886 or 986 model, and you'll have a lot of dependencies like fuel versions and so on.
Software from different suppliers brings up to some peculiar bugs, such as a heater turning itself on during a hot summer day.
Never say the heater turned itself on. Say a heater activated itself and created a situation requiring a reboot of the car's system.
You mean same colours. This is not an IT section story.
"Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you."
One pedal, and a Ctrl-key for other options. My current car already has windows, but my bike doesn't ;-)
As technologies moves away from OEM's and to the Tier Ones, more and more components become the same between automakers. Look at MAF's and Fuel injectors, and O2 sensors, and (fill in blank). They are likely to differ by 1 digit in a part number between different makes of cars (if at all). As sensors and actuators become standardized, the only difference between automakers will be what they do with them (software!!!).
A few months ago, in France, a man driving his car experienced a bug : the automatic speed limitator hanged, and he was stuck on the highway at 200 km/h (125 mph). He called the police while he tried no to collide with trucks, passing them on the right. The police had to open the gates at the next toll to let him pass. After 150 km (90 miles), the car finally stopped. Renault, the constructor, said they detected no problem and sued him (maybe he just lied). Anyway, when you have to get your car repaired, it is longer and more expensive than a few years ago, because of electronic parts being repaired only by the constructor.
which was supposedly "repaired" by the dealership. 2 days after I picked up my jeep, the check engine light came back on.
Rather than take it in for a $90 diagnostic fee, I found a trick: put in key, turn "on", "off", "on", "off", and finally, "on", and the diagnostic code(s) display in the digital odometer.
Take that code to google, and I found that the jeep had the same problem which was supposedly "repaired".
I took it back in, and mentioned the codes it was showing, and put up a fight with the service manager saying, "No, you will not charge me for the 'diagnostic' check, I already know what it is. It's code ABC and XYZ. Now, fix."
If it comes to that, I will get certified and cruise the LA freeways on my kickstart motorcycle. That way, I can weave through the traffic jams of cars loaded with Spyware and virii.
I'll need to get a wi-fi VISA authorization installed on my '82 Harley Sturgis... and a bodyguard to protect all the cash I will be carrying
This dates back to the 1940's. Back then, this was probably correct.
It was more than a prediction of this year's markets. At the time, there wasn't any clear technological advances that could make it more affordable. Remember, this was long before the transistor and ICs (which are the two key techs that have made it possible to grow almost exponentially in power).
I'm sure you've read the comparisons between a car and a computer, how the car would go at lightspeed and drive across the galaxy on a cup of fuel. If you assumed a "normal" development, and looked at the gigantic price tag and the relatively few computations it could do, the statement actually looks quite plausible.
Moore's law is pretty much an exception to normal law. We've only gotten so used to it, we assume it is natural. It's not. It was completely, unimaginably wild to believe computers would evolve like they have.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Emissions.
Yup, that's all there is to it. Just better emission control.
Life is not for the lazy.
You SOB ... few more kicks and cursings and my car is on its way. May be I can claim it as prior art before IBM patents it.
I worked at a dealership back in 1998, right out of High School. I was amazed, on a daily basis, how far computers in cars had come since my 1979 Volvo had been made.
In a lot of cases, we could tell the telemetry on the car in the last week. Also cars adjusting themselves to the driver. (Pretty annoying when you loan your car to your lead foot mate of teenager).
Cars have, without a doubt, come just as far again since then.
I also have to agree that the mechanics of cars won't be seeing too may improvements in the next decade or longer. The real advances will come in fine tuned computer controlling of all the support systems. Fual, air, spark, all adjusted based on temp, humidity, how hard the driver is pushing the car, and many other factors.
I don't see any reason why a straight gas car can't do over 100 MPG, given the right fuel.
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I was on a 7 pm flight this week. We say on the runway for over 2 hours while a computer on the plane was rebooting repeatedly. Finally they rebooting the entire plane, shutting everything off and then bringing the systems back up. That didn't work either. Finally they gave up, said that this had happened early in the day (!) and put us on another plane going to a different city. To make a long story short, I got in at 2 am instead of 8 pm and I could have driven there faster.
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I've got about 5 old cars in my backyard and wondered if any hackers have figured out how to put Linux on them. I'd love to use them to run a Beowulf cluster.
were doing 2 Ghz in a 1.8 Ghz zone? Sorry but I got to write you up."
If Microsoft made cars thay would have been sued out of existance by now due to BSOD Suits. Their "We deny all responsibility" ELUA has a lot to answer for. If any car made depends upon any M$ software for critical safety systems then think really hard before you buy it. Read the ELUA and ask a lawyer what happens if it fails at a critical moment. Can you sue M$? If not on't buy it. IMHO, all car safety systems MST be certified to the same level as that required for Aircraft Avionics Systems. /S
{I'd rather be riding my '69 Bonniville)
I'd rather be riding my '63 Triumph T120.
I bought a 2001 Mitsubishi Montero Sport SUV last year, and while it's been a decent, reliable vehicle since then - I kept running into one annoying little issue. The "check engine" light would occasionally come on, for no obvious reason.
The first time, I took it to a local mechanic my family used for years. He checked everything out, reset the code in the computer, charged me about $50, and said "Looks like it's all ok to me!" I argued that the code had to mean something. He merely mumbled something about it being an emissions-related code that must have come on as a fluke, and maybe I just didn't screw my gas cap on tightly enough the last time....
Well, a few months went by, and sure enough, on came the "check engine" light once again. This time, I had a friend reset it with one of those hand-held ECU code retreivers/testers. He looked the error code up in his book, and said it was an "evaporative emissions leak" error. The only thing we could find possibly wrong on the car was an old PCV valve that might have been sticking. I had that replaced, and waited to see if that would help.
About 2 months later, on came the light again. This time, I searched all over the net to try to find out if any other Montero owners had the same issue. Finally, over on mitsubishisucks.com, I found a message thread about the same problem. One guy claimed his SUV kept doing this until the dealership charged him about $150 to "update the firmware in the engine computer". WTF?!? This whole thing is just an issue with buggy firmware, and yet customers are being billed to have it fixed by the dealership!?! Needless to say, I've just learned to reset the stupid code myself and ignore it.
That prediction seems as accurate as the IBM prediction that there was a worldwide market for 10 or so computers.
Why does that seem far-fetched? Cars today are mechanically similar to the Model T Ford.The only changes that have been added over the years have been for the convenience of the driver, like power windows and auto transmissions.
By 2010, there will be more hybrid cars and (as predicted) more computerized cars. Other than that, I don't think there will be any differences. What does timothy think will be different?
Give a man fire, and you warm him for the night. Set a man on fire, and you warm him for the rest of his life.
..built today will be serviceable in 20 years? I wonder sometimes. Not that it's representative, but the new BMW 7-series has over 100 motors operating various things (seats, suspension, etc). Will you really be able to keep today's car "vintage" a few decades from now?
Will there someday be money in ripping out all computers in cars and replacing them with simple mechanics?
This stresses hardware a lot.
The scene in I, Robot where the grid gets corrupted and our hero, on his antique gas-driven motorcycle, is the only thing moving on the street.
In the Beginning was the Command Line also has an analogy to automobile menus and a mouse-driven car.
The good thing would be that I need just to press CTRFL-F to find whatever i could not find in my car.
As long as it only happens when you're driving 120 Km/H, it's okay.
If it starts happening when I'm driving around 75 MPH, then it'll be a problem.
"Car-dows"?
If we could get it first installed in our (US) national economic competitors, such as France or China, that might be a good idea!
Diferent software? Not if Microsoft gets it's way.
Since it's diesel, there's no ignition system. It did have an alternator, but really it was just there to charge the battery so the starter motor could run, but it came with a handcrank so that if need be, you could handstart it. I did that once. Painful, but possible.
No engine computer. No electricity needed whatsoever. Everything was mechanical.
The timing was done by a cogged system, so there was no timing belt to break. In fact, the only belt in the entire engine was for the alternator. The water pump was also cogged.
The manual had a succinct sentence in the debugging section: "If the engine is getting clean fuel and air, it must run". This was actually a bit pessimistic; one fellow I knew ran out of fuel a few miles away from home once in a flat calm and ended up pouring a mixture of turpentine and paint thinner into his fuel tank. The diesel fired up and run just fine, albeit a bit smokier than usual.
AFAIK the original quote is "I think there is a world market for about four computers."
Your points regaring Moore's law are good.
Dan
where's all that Karma?
Anyone who does tech support is aware of how incompetant people can be at times. Here's an email I recieved that sounds like it relates to this topic:
...'
HELPLINE: 'General Motors Helpline, how can I help you?'
CUSTOMER: 'I got in my car and closed the door, and nothing happened!'
HELPLINE: 'Did you put the key in the ignition and turn it?'
CUSTOMER: 'What's an ignition?'
HELPLINE: 'It's a starter motor that draws current from your battery and turns over the engine.'
CUSTOMER: 'Ignition? Motor? Battery? Engine? How come I have to know all of these technical terms just to use my car?'
--------
HELPLINE: 'General Motors Helpline, how can I help you?'
CUSTOMER: 'My car ran fine for a week, and now it won't go anywhere!'
HELPLINE: 'Is the gas tank empty?'
CUSTOMER: 'Huh? How do I know?'
HELPLINE: 'There's a little gauge on the front panel, with a needle, and markings from 'E' to 'F'. Where is the needle pointing?'
CUSTOMER: 'I see an 'E' but no 'F'.'
HELPLINE: 'You see the 'E' and just to the right is the 'F'.
CUSTOMER: 'No, just to the right of the first 'E' is a 'V'.
HELPLINE: 'A 'V'?!?'
CUSTOMER: 'Yeah, there's a 'C', an 'H', the first 'E', then a 'V', followed by 'R', 'O', and 'L'
HELPLINE: 'No, no, no sir! That's the front of the car. When you sit behind the steering wheel, that's the panel I'm talking about.'
CUSTOMER: 'That steering wheel thingy. Is that the round thing that honks the horn?'
HELPLINE: 'Yes, among other things.'
CUSTOMER: 'The needle's pointing to 'E'. What does that mean?'
HELPLINE: 'It means that you have to visit a gasoline vendor and purchase some more gasoline. You can install it yourself, or pay the vendor to install it for you.'
CUSTOMER: 'What? I paid $12,000 for this car! Now you tell me that I have to keep buying more components? I want a car that comes with everything built in!'
------------
HELPLINE: 'General Motors Helpline, how can I help you?'
CUSTOMER: 'Your cars suck!'
HELPLINE: 'What's wrong?'
CUSTOMER: 'It crashed, that's what went wrong!'
HELPLINE: 'What were you doing?'
CUSTOMER: 'I wanted to go faster, so I pushed the accelerator pedal all the way to the floor. It worked for a while, and then it crashed-and now it won't even start up!'
HELPLINE: 'I'm sorry, sir, but it's your responsibility if you misuse the product.'
CUSTOMER: 'Misuse it? I was just following this damned manual of yours. It said to make the car go to put the transmission in 'D' and press the accelerator pedal. That's exactly what I did-now the damn thing's crashed.'
HELPLINE: 'Did you read the entire operator's manual before operating the car sir?'
CUSTOMER: 'What? Of course I did! I told you I did EVERYTHING the manual said and it didn't work!'
HELPLINE: 'Didn't you attempt to slow down so you wouldn't cash?'
CUSTOMER: 'How do you do THAT?'
HELPLINE: 'You said you read the entire manual, sir. It's on page 14. The pedal next to the accelerator.'
CUSTOMER: 'Well, I don't have all day to sit around and read this manual you know.'
HELPLINE: 'Of course not. What do you expect us to do about it?'
CUSTOMER: 'I want you to send me one of the latest versions that goes fast and won't crash anymore!'
---------------
HELPLINE: 'General Motors Helpline, how can I help you?'
CUSTOMER: 'Hi! I just bought my first car, and I chose your car because it has automatic transmission, cruise control, power steering, power brakes, and power door locks.'
HELPLINE: 'Thanks for buying our car. How can I help you?'
CUSTOMER: 'How do I work it?'
HELPLINE: 'Do you know how to drive?'
CUSTOMER: 'Do I know how to what?'
HELPLINE: 'Do you know how to DRIVE?'
CUSTOMER: 'I'm not a technical person! I just want to go places in my car!'
It's a pretty good laugh
Besides diagnosis... you get to "over-clock" your A/F ratios, shift points, delete emission devices (not that I would ever do that). All kinds of fun stuff!
Hell... this year I have a an O2 wideband that plugs right into the black box on the scanner software
Getting charged for firmware updates should not be happening. Perhaps it's only a matter of time before the practice of releasing free software updates (ala Microsoft and other developers) also catches on in the automobile industry. Then again, they're obviously making money off their mistakes, so why would they bother to change their methods?
My driving instructor was always having trouble with his fuel injection system (i think it was a Peugeot). He'd tried putting injector cleaning fluid in the fuel and everything but it kept losing power momentarily.
:)
I was having a driving lesson and the thing cut out altogether. It wouldn't start at all. After trying a few things I suggested that we could disconnect the battery for a few seconds to reboot the ECU. Unplugged the battery, plugged it back in, and it started first time. I got the lesson for free for that
Of course there is NO WAY I'd go back to a carburettor, I've had a Skoda that has a Bosh fuel injection system for a while now and it works perfectly, starts first time _every time_ no matter how cold it is. We can all romanticise about how old cars were "more reliable" before they had computers in them but the simple fact is that new cars are on the whole a lot more reliable then old cars (well, maybe with the exception of old Toyota Hilux pickups) even with computerised systems, and get much better performance and fuel consumption because of them.
Interesting that they wrote an article on this. I bought a 2003 GMC Yukon (e.g. giant SUV). I hadn't had an American car for many years, but this one has been really great.
Except for the occasional climate control bug, almost exactly as in the article. Sometimes, with no apparent external factors, the climate control system just decides to cook my in the driver's seat. Usually happens on days which are neither excessively warm or cold. In the Yukon, there's three climate zones, and the other too are just fine, perhaps gentle A/C. My side, scorching Hades, since heating and A/C are what American cars are best at. No dinking with the controls helps, or pounding on the sensor holes. "Rebooting" the car fixes it every time, but it's pretty annoying. Usually this problem crops up in the morning, so I don't realize that I'm in the kiln until the engine warms up and I'm slogging along in freeway traffic. Not the best time to reboot.
But it's never a good time to reboot, is it?
Fix Or Repair Daily
It will become
Format Or Reboot Daily.
"WE" call them handlebars. But with throttle, clutch and steering all in your hands, it's hard to eat a burrito superme while you ride. Esp. in a full face helmet.
http://www.daytonayearbook.com
(the blond has an IQ of 152)
Just wait until we start seeing automotive malware. They'll probably happen soon after there's a popular reason for networking the cars (to get traffic data, perhaps).
We're already starting to see telephone viruses.
"It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us." - Zelazny
Wouldn't it be nice if you could get the very same technical manual that dealers get, free with any car when you purchased it? (Instead of having to either violate copyright laws, buy it on the black/gray market, or pay $500 for it.) Wouldn't it be nice if the car's computer had a small screen. When the check engine light comes on, there would be a little button labeled "More Info" which when pushed, would spit out the error code, and a plain English description of what is wrong, such as: "Oxygen sensor faulty," "Throttle position sensor faulty," "Mass Air Flow Sensor faulty," "Low octane fuel causing timing to be retarded," etc. Perhaps even a reference to the proper page in the technical manual ... Maybe even a compact flash port on the car's computer for downloading firmware updates on the internet, making updating the computer super easy? ... :)
I should really start a car company
Have you ever heard of an immobilizer? Many modern car security systems have them. My ex's 1995 Thunderbird has one. Immobilizers make it impossible to start the car if the security system detects a breach. Resetting the security system using the key fob is not usually allowed while it still detects a breach.
What happened here is that the security system was triggered, engaging the immobilizer. The system would only reset once it detected that the car was secure. This is how it is designed to function.
OUCH! that's rough...
I'm driving a higher end 2002 and the rampant software that's embedded in the thing can be, in spite of how convenient, infuriatingly stupid. Further, because everything's done in software, the manufacturers start cutting functionality that used to be done in hardware. This is a VERY bad thing.
Case in point, I decide to check the oil on my new car. I pop the hood and have a look around. I can't seem to find the dip stick. Figuring that I might just be a moron, I grab the manual. The manual says nothing about a dipstick. How am I supposed to check the oil?!
I find the "checking your oil" section in the manual, and it says "with your car turned off for several hours and parked on a level surface, put your key in the ignition, switch the computer display to `engine', and now turn the car on". I do so. The car display comes up and says "OIL LEVEL: OK!"
Not quite satisfied with that answer, I look around on the internet for information about the engine and have it confirmed for me that there really actually is no dipstick in my car.
I check the oil level occasionally over the next few weeks, and every time the car says "OIL LEVEL: OK!". Finally, one day I bring the car in for servicing (on an unrelated matter) and the technicians put on this expression, the kind of expression that men have whenever women talk about how they didn't know that cars preferred gas of such and such minimum octane. With this expression on, they scold me "DID YOU KNOW THAT YOUR OIL LEVEL WAS DANGEROUSLY LOW?!"
So I contain my anger for a second and play stupid "Gosh, really? I'm not very good at cars or these computer doodads or anything. How do you guys check the oil?!" to which they say "We checked the dipstick"(!!) At this point I go "YOU MEAN THE DIPSTICK THAT THE MANUAL NEVER MENTIONS, YOU MEAN THE DIPSTICK THAT ALLEGEDLY DOES NOT EXIST? YOU MEAN HOW THE MANUAL TELLS ME TO USE THAT OBTUSE COMPUTER INTERFACE TO CHECK THE OIL LEVEL AND JUST THE OTHER DAY IT SAID OIL LEVEL OK?"
Well, apparantly the car has a "modular dipstick", and technicians don't bother with the oil sensor because YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW FOR SURE, BUT THE DIPSTICK, THAT GIVES YOU ACCURATE RESULTS!
Seriously, keep computers the fuck out of my car.
It's just a shame that there isn't a large body of software available, free from restrictive licenses, so that thousands of programers could review and enhance, until it reached a point where it was dependable, and largely free of bugs. Companies could use these software componants to build systems that would start their service life already well tested.
A well managed software system CAN be more reliable than a hardware system. It can coordinate self-checks, manage redundant systems, fix small problems, and ask for help with big problems. It is a sorry state of affairs that we expect the opposite fom our software.
You *get* that Free Software has little to do with the price, right?
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
...with your pink bunny slippers on. Didn't your driving instructor told you to re-boot before you drive?
regardless of how outrageously stupid customers are, a good helpdesk can learn from them. There is a good reason to know traffic(though even there some automation is possible), but why should a person know if the engine is in the front or the back? Just to be nice, imagine the person is from a country far far away, just got off the plane, and wants to rent a car.
ex 1. after you identified yourself, why doesn't your car start automatically? It could offer you to start.
ex 2. If the gas tank is running empty, the car becomes more insisting. It tells you it needs food. Then it tells you it needs food urgently and the nearest place to get it.
ex 3. ignoring cruise control, what decides the pace of deceleration when you let go of the accelerator pedal? It's not chosen, it's just decided by the construction of the engine. The car could start breaking if you let go of the pedal. If you press the pedal a little bit, you get the previous 'breaking on the engine'. The breaking pedal is for extra breaking.
ex 4. Car interface became more complicated than 30 years ago. Implement an 'automated' option so controls can move out of the way, with manual control as an override. This is what is being done with headlights(sensing light/dark ) and wipers(sensing rain).
Each of these ideas can be dismissed. But hey, imagine getting just one real proposal out of 100 customer questions.
Just wait until we start seeing automotive malware. They'll probably happen soon after there's a popular reason for networking the cars (to get traffic data, perhaps).
No need to wait, the future is already here. (More or less: this seems to be a mobile phone worm that tries to hop over to the car)
I have a 2002 BMW M5. One time on a trip across the PA turnpike I had an interesting experince.
I stopped at a rest area, shut the car off , went in, but when I went to restart it , the tach showed it was still at idle , and the computer would not let the starter engage.
My (then) 15 y/o kid just shrugged and said , I'd reboot it. Well I disconected the (-) battery cable , waited 20 seconds , put it back on , PROBLEM FIXED.
I wonder if BMW uses WinCE?
Cheers
* Carthago Delenda Est *
The strange thing is, computers actually make cars more reliable. Remember back when engines had to get tune-ups every year or so? Computerized engine controls have largely eliminated them. You might have to get one every decade or so. Computerized timing, valve control, and transmissions have made cars more efficient, cleaner to run, anddo fail, the repair cost is much higher.)
I had a 1991 dodge dynasty (I know it is a shitty car, but the price was right and I was in college...)
Every once in a while the transmission would forget what was going on and shift into safe mode (second gear was the only gear). The solution was to reboot the car... Actually there was next a some kind of heat source next to a vacume tube that made it keep loosing vacume, and I wasn't about to spend much $ on that heap, so I just put up with having to reboot it every once in a while, but the tin foil heat shield did help...
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
A sysadmin buddy got a new barbeque. At his house warming, we set put it together and lit it. The flames were half an inch high. He said he'd shut it off and start it again. We told him that it wasn't MS BBQ(tm) and it wouldn't work. So he did it. And it worked. Fsck.
All systems, mechanical or electronic, will fail. It's just that the electronic/software systems fail in less obvious ways...
Engineering is the art of compromise.
They obviously plan to make shitty software. Their RF mouse has a reboot button on it. Most designers would use a watchdog or other reboot strategy, but obviously MS needs their reboot button.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Do you religiously tighten the gas cap until it clicks loudly for many clicks ?
Sounds dumb, but the mitsubishi dealership told me that if I didn't the check engine light would come on, and they would charge me $90 to turn of the light.
Having formerly worked for an auto supplier designing microprocessor-based control modules for the Big Three, I have first-hand experience with microprocessor- and software-related warranty returns. I would not be the least bit surprised if this 30% figure is significantly on the high side. There was one vehicle model in particular that we got an enormous number of warranty returns on. We checked each and every one of them against the mechanic's report and found that less than 2% of the returned modules were actually defective, and the vast majority of those were unrelated to software or the microprocessor. My question, of course, is whether the ABI study would include ALL of those warranty returns, or just the ones that were actually defective.
The real problem was twofold: The module in question stored all of the fault codes for the entire vehicle, and it was located in a place where the mechanic could replace it in less than 10 minutes. As a result, the mechanic would see a fault code, match it up with an easy-to-replace module, and simply replace the module storing the fault code (never mind that the code was generated by, say, the engine controller). We would get the module back as a warranty return, and the mechanic would go on looking for the true source of the problem. I understand that certain expensive components are purposely made horribly difficult to replace so they won't be returned unless there truly is a problem with them.
This is not to say our software was perfect. We once discovered a bug that would reset the odometer if you took the right combination of actions. It was a very unusual combination of actions, but the bug was highly reproducible.
Voice actuated throttle and braking. Maybe steering...
"faster... faster... FASTER... a little more to the right... brake... harder... Harder... OMG HARDER!!!"
As mentioned in a reply to a AC further up -
:
If you design anything destined for public use, please, please read through the Risks Digest. This mailing list is 20 years old and is described as a "Forum On Risks To The Public In Computers And Related Systems". It's good to browse through - often simple things end up getting someone killed, like the woman who drowned in an elevator that returned to the flooded ground floor of a building when a fire alarm went off.
A few snippets
French motorist obeys GPS navigation, makes U-turn into traffic
Air Traffic Control blacked out by rodent
The risks of zero feedback
Shutting the train door before the commuter has bolted?
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
"by 2010 almost all cars will have the same mechanical systems (hardware), and the differences will be primarily on software level." Does this mean I'll be able to hack the firmware and turn a 2011 focus into a 2011 trans-am?
There's nothing electronic throughout the whole rest of the car. Even the clock is mechanical (albeit driven by a DC electric motor).
I've recently been having troubles like that with microwave ovens - twice over the past 4 months (separate incidents), microwave ovens had to be unplugged and given a chance to let the computers reset to get the working again - no mechanical issues, just resetting their microcomputers.
I kid you not. TransPerth's trains are run by WestRail. The train I was on, a newish three-car one doubled-up on Platform 2, missed its departure time, then the driver cam on and announced that there was a fault with the train, so about half of the passengers scurried off to the milk-run train on Platform 6. Shortly after that, the train lost power - all of it, lights, aircon, doors, the lot - for about ten seconds, then came back up again, and about a minute later the driver came on to announce that we'd be departing as soon as the signal went green.
For context, 2 is the empty line ending above the bright sign in this picture and 6 is to the right of it (with a train departing it away from the camera for Clarkson). All of the trains in this shot are the older style, the new ones have 3 cars instead of 2, slightly more streamlined ends and are nearly twice as long.
I'm betting the suckers run XP Embedded. Anyone want to take my money? (-:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
I had a problem with all my gages (they were dead) and locking the power door locks (opening worked fine), and the headlight-off delay timer, and the overhead trip computer/thermometer, plus other things. I thought it was a relay, because the same thing had happened when it was under warrenty. The work order said they replaced 6 dash board relays. I checked them out (they are just to the left of the steering column, above the fuses) but they tested ok. The problem went away when I disconnected and reconnected the body computer. Later, after the problem happen several more times, that disconnecting the battery for a few minutes also fixed it. (But then I had to reset the radio and recalibrate the compass.)
If an indicator - Low Oil, Anti-Lock Engaged, whatever -- lights up in my Buick, oftentimes it will go away permanently if I turn the car off and then back on.
Is this a sigs-optional kind of place? 'Cause I am totally down with that if you know what I mean.
"Here's this morning's casualty tally for the Hall of the Mountain King, Sir."
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
There was an EICM (electronic ignition control module) recall on my wife's Subaru wagon. No huge danger, just a chance that the thing could run afoul of emissions regulations under rare circumstances. Software glitch. The free repair was handled in 15 minutes. The guy popped out a chip, popped in another, and all was well.
Now, imagine the cost and effort required to replace any defective part of a MECHANICAL ignition system. I've rebuild points, condensors, coils, distributors, etc. That work sucks. Getting the timing right alone takes time. Time is money, particularly when the manufacturer is fitting the bill for a recall.
Do I prefer electronics in my vehicles, having owned both electronic and electro-mechanical? Hell yes! Give me the new stuff, any day!
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
When troubleshooting some system anomolies on Airbus aircraft, I am often asked by maintenance to "reboot" the aircraft (disconnect all power and re-energize) to see if the problem disappears. Half the time this works, the other half turn out to be actual system failures. Ctrl-Alt-Del!
P.S. Never reboot while inflight.
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
I am certain you were joking, but I have worked on *many* German cars, and what you did will clear the memory of any
fuel-injection ( or injection+ignition, e.g. Motronic ) computer.
This also applies to other cars. The memory used for the adaptive section of the box IS volatile, and can be dumped by
disconnecting the 12 volt power from it by disconnecting the
battery ground ( negative ) cable.
BTW, if you ever jump-start such a car, you can KILL the brain box by simply connecting jumper cables incorrectly.
A typical price for a brain box, new, is well over $1,000.
So, check those jumper cables carefully, before you touch them
to the battery or to ground, of your car.
Sooner or later, everyone driving one of these will be dead. Pity about the collateral damage.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
A few years ago, while waiting for my plane to taxi off the runway, the captain told us we were delayed again since another piece of equipment in the tail section was sending a fault message to the cockpit and we couldn't take off until it stabilized.
After 30 minutes of tinkering without effect he announces, "Hang on. I'm going to reboot the sucker."
Well "the sucker" turned out to be the entire airplane. Every light and air-vent went dead for about 30 seconds and came on in an orderly fashion over the next few minutes. The problem was gone and we left in a few more minutes.
Will Microsoft write patches so I can remove my rust holes?
Can I overclock the brakes so I stop faster?
-Viv-
As an engineer working for a sensor manufacturer, I can tell you it's not an uncommon failure mode for a simple analog sensor to produce a reading that's wrong; but, not totally out of range. We'd love to have sensors that simply fail outright, when they do fail. The real world just isn't that easy.
I'm sick of hearing how wrong the prediction was that the world only needing 10 computers. The fact is, it's roughly correct. The computers are Google, AOL, MSN, a few major ISP/Hosts, a few government and university research super computers, and that's it.
The so-called computers on our desktops are simply network terminals. Yeah, they are powerful network terminals, much more capable than the dumb terminals of old, but they are still data in / data out terminal nodes on a network.
If you choose to quibble - the Google "computer" happens at the moment to be thousands of PCs connected as a cluster, the AOL "computer" is made up of 5 huge mainframe sites, I have no idea what MSN is composed of, and most ISP/Hosts are clusters. These all may, in the not too distant future, become indistinguishable from a single computer. Someone, such as IBM, will build a ridiculously powerful machine with thousands of cell processors, and with some fancy virtualization software, it will allow ISPs to consolidate down to one or a small set of machines for all their hosted sites.
As for the desktop - the network IS the computer. Your stand-alone PC can be a fancy calculator, a glorified word processing machine, a portable music docking station and conduit, etc. These are all "smart terminal" activities. More and more, its what you can do connected to the world that counts. I personally have found that the processor no longer matters for many of my clients and users - it's all about the browser's capabilities, how big and bright their monitor they have, and having the most comfortable chair.
Give these old visionaries the respect they deserve, and embrace the fact that their prediction is coming true.
I agree that precision in areas like climate control isn't needed. Engine-management is another story. Fuel injection is far superior to cars using cabeurators. It requires the use of a computer to monitor the incoming air pressure, engine rpm, and outgoing emission composition, to determine how much fuel to use. The result is better performance, better emissions, and less breakable stuff (fuel injection systems stay cleaner than carbeurated systems).
Plus, computerized engine management systems give you fault codes which help you catch problems before they become big. For example, your car may be running rich and you don't realize it until it clogs your catalytic converter. Not a problem if your oxygen sensor fires a warning on the on-board-computer....
I have BMW 1991 325i -- it's got just enough computerization to run stuff properly, but not so much that it must be taken to a dealer for all work. Some of the newer BMW's have 'valvetronic' systems -- the cam timing is all determined per-stroke based on a number of inputs. The result is some pretty impressive performance, but they're quite difficult to work on yourself. If you've got a good warranty on cars like these (you can buy 3rd-party ones after your first-party warranty expires), then you get the best of both worlds.
Back before spark plugs were invented gas engines you to use hot tube ignition. You got a tube in the head red hot, and then cranked the engine. Gas from ignition would not enter that tube until the piston was most of the way to the top, then the gas would light in the tube, and expand outwords. Once the engine was running the tube stayed hot. It worked, but there is good reason we use spark plugs no, not that system.
I agree that too much computerization makes stuff hard to work on, but "There is no need for a computer in a car." is a pretty stupid thing to say.
Engine management (fuel injection) and anti-lock braking systems require the use of computers. Engine management systems perform better, cleaner, and they diagnose problems on their own before they develop into something more expensive. Anti-lock braking systems help save lives, and prevent accidents. An ABS-equipped car will stop on a dime while your old-car will skid into a collision.
I have a 1991 BMW E30 (3 series '83 thru '91). It has just enough computerization to be a very agile, dependable ride, without some of the electrical gremlins or dealer service lock-in that the newer cars have. I do most of the work on the car myself and it's really no harder than working on a non-computerized car (in fact, I think it's easier because of fault codes and such).
I have a 2004 Chevy Malibu. One of Chevy's first cars to offer electric power steering assist, instead of the more conventional hydraullic power steering. The idea AFAIK is to cut down on mileage (no more pump constantly running) and to cut down on maintenance (no PS fluid level to check/leak).
From what I've read, its control system works on 3 sensors. Vehicle speed sensors (you need more torque in a parking lot, than on the highway), torque sensor, position sensor.
Chevy issued a recall on the system because one of the sensors is failing. It really wasn't a big deal, the car would enter this condition, and slowly disengage the power assist. One of the theories I read was that some lubrication during the installation of the steering column is oozing onto some part of the sensor screwing it up.
I've taken it to the dealership twice for the service. They have replaced the column twice. Both times I've gotten the car back, they have failed to calibrate all the sensors correctly. The car steers easier right than it does left. It really pisses me off, cause the car is fine, and I really like it. But if the idiot mechanics can't fix it correctly, it could end up becoming a lemon.
Forgot to mention anti-lock braking systems in my post. This is another example of computers maximizing saftey and effectiveness through precision.
Picture this: you're driving in a residential neighborhood, and a kid darts out into the street 30 feet ahead of you, from between 2 SUV's parked on the side of the road, and there's a car in the oncoming lane, so you can't swerve. ABS will let you stop in time, where a completely hydraulic system would have you skidding into the child when you try and brake.
Are you beginning to see the benefits of *some* computer-controlled components?
" Among the electronic flaws on her car, the software-based service system that sends out maintenance reminders went haywire, telling her at 8,000 miles that the car needed its 10,000-mile service. At 17,000 miles, it requested the 20,000-mile service. There have been no more reminders, though the mileage is now 39,000. " Another example of ignorant owners/dealers. The maintenance reminder is "automatic" in mercedes cars and is dependent upon ones driving conditions and driving styles. I'm not sure about the maximum interval but I am doubtful of this guys story. At least that's what I was told when I test drove one.
He was joking, but as you pointed out -- the BMW navigation system runs under Windows CE. However his problem was related to the ECU, which is a custom system (Not sure about the E39 M5, but on my E30 325i it's a Bosch Mototronic unit)
don't laugh... but I own a 98 Saturn SW2 (yeah, the wagon)...
it's computer has a nasty habit of deciding to rev the engine for no good reason...
it's definately the computer responding to some signal that it thinks it's getting... because often I'll be sitting at a light and the engine will start revving in "steps"... 700rpm is normal... then 1100... then 1400... then 1800... then 2200... and it'll usualy stop about 2200... once a blue-moon I get lucky and it will spontaneously drop back to 700, but usually I have to do my little trick:
When this happens, whether i'm stopped or moving (it's a stick shift) if I turn the key to OFF briefly then back to RUN it will "reboot" the computer, makes all the indicator lights flash back on, etc, etc... the engine hasn't stopped spinning completely when the key moves back to RUN so it doesn't require a re-start... I wait about 4 seconds for the engine speed to normalize at idle (700rpm) and either wait for my light to go green, or put it back in gear and continue...
It's freaky... the mechanics have all said "you can spend a few hundred and *maybe* track this down, or just keep doing this since it works ok"
I have this down to science, because some mornings I'll have to do it 3-4 times... otherwise I'm sitting in traffic w/ my engine racing at 2200rpm...
Good God don't buy American cars!!! SERIOUSLY! Stuff like this happens all the time on those things. If you buy a car from Germany or Japan you can run it for 200,000 miles NO PROBLEM. Just maintain it.
:-P
The problem with American cars is at 100,000 miles (or well before, as you're witnessing) you stop "maintaining" and you start "repairing". I would seriously consider a new Honda or used BMW. It won't fall apart like the Chevy.
In what country you're getting off the plane may affect the details but not the general idea. I don't even think the examples are all real. But with the right attitude you can use the feedback of stupid customers to come up with improvements. You don't need a real problem to come up with an improvement.
The pace of deceleration of a car is now decided by the construction of the transmission. The car builder did not choose this pace, but he could. So the question to ask is, suppose you could choose it, what would you do?
Automatic transmission is a good example of an improvement that allows you to ignore the mechanics of the system(to some degree). Ok, so this ignorance can be a problem in some cases.
I did it already in 1992 ;-)
:-)
I was on a business trip in the US with another guy, he was driving a rented car (Ford Escort), and he insisted on switching trasmission to neutral from time to time "to conserve fuel".
We were aproaching red lights downhill, and he tried to pull the trick again, but unfortunately moved the lever into R position. The car jerked, and the lever get finally to N position. This moment the lights changed to green, so he switched the lever to D, but the car did not react - it looked like the trasmission was still in neutral.What's worse, the break pedal was blocked.
We'd pulled car sideway and stopped with a hand break, then were trying to decide what to do next.
"Well, lets's try to stop and start the engine!"
We did. The break pedal was now working. Lever into D posion - seems working.
"OK. We are going..."
I have a Buick Regal that requires "rebooting" sometimes. Sometimes when you start it, the check engine light will come on and it will run very rough, hardly run at all. If you turn it off and start it right back up, the check engine light will stay off and it will run fine. Sometimes you'll be driving down the road and the engine will just die. One second it's running fine, the next second... nothing. Usually when that happens, it takes a while before it'll restart. I'm not sure if the two problems are related. I'm trying to sell the thing. In the mean time, I'm driving my 1972 GMC pickup. No electronics in that baby!
They ended up having to do some repair work as well. I'm not sure they would have needed to if this had been diagnosed earlier. But that's okay, it's only been in various shops (including the dealer) about six times in the past year. >:o
Eric
-Eric
It's nice to see this issue getting more attention; I live in the Auto Zone and could tell some second-hand horror stories, but none are significantly different than what you see here.
For my own semi-prophetic writings on the topic, see this article, originally published March 1989 in Datamation.
Yeah, I'm well aware of the Consumer Reports testing, but my car is the Montero Sport, not the full-size Montero. Big difference. The Sport model didn't exhibit any of the tendency to flip that the much taller Montero did.
(For what it's worth, other people supposedly tried to duplicate the Consumer Reports test results on the full-size Montero, and didn't come up with the same conclusions at all. So I'm not quite sure if their testing is fully believable or not....)
I will say, though, I'm not too pleased with Mitsubishi dealerships in general. I bought this vehicle used from a GM dealership, actually - and got a decent deal on it because it was a repo. I used to own an Eclipse GS-T and I learned from those warranty experiences that Mitsu is pretty tough to work with. (I had the convertible version of the Eclipse, and the top always had problems folding up or down without "catching" mid-way through. They supposedly looked at it a couple times, doing nothing useful towards fixing the problem, and finally declared that "My car was in an accident at some point, and the frame was slightly bent, causing the top to catch." There was never any evidence of this car having been in an accident other than what these guys suddenly came up with, and certainly not anything bad enough to cause a bent frame. The car drove perfectly straight too, and nobody else who examined the car could see anything hinting at a previous accident (repainted panels or so forth). But after that, Mitsubishi notated their findings in their computer system, and I was denied any warranty repair work on practically anything on the car after that, no matter which dealership I visited. I traded that car in soon thereafter.... That can be someone else's problem....
Hand starting was accomplished by
- Spraying liquid ether into the air intake
- Pressing the decompression lever,
which lifted the valves
- Spinning it up as fast as you can, and
- Dropping the decompression lever. If the
starter crank didn't rebound and throw you across
the cabin from the sudden compression, the
engine would sometimes start.
It was incredibly hard to do, but it did work.