Athlon 64 SFF With PCI Express Reviewed

EconolineCrush writes "The Tech Report has an in-depth review of Shuttle's new XPC SN25P. At several times the size of a Mac Mini, the SN25P is an entirely different breed of small form factor system; one that supports one 5.25" drive, three 3.5" drives, PCI Express x16 graphics cards and x1 peripherals, up to 2GB of DDR400 memory, and Socket 939 Athlon 64 processors. The system also bristles with USB, Firewire, and audio ports, including digital S/PDIF inputs and outputs, and even has an integrated memory card reader. Looks like a pretty good balance between footprint, portability, and expansion capacity."

Comments

"New" form factor?

[dmccarty]

Once upon a time people called that a mini tower.

Re:"New" form factor?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a mini tower.

This is significantly smaller.

Re:"New" form factor?

[Oculus Habent]

Mini tower, indeed. It's a *bit* shorter than my last mini tower, but barely qualifies as SFF, IMHO.

And, what the hell is with the Mac Mini comparison?

Re:"New" form factor?

[Anonymous Coward]

A mini tower is 3 times the size of that unit. STFU.

Re:"New" form factor?

[PaidOracle]

I don't understand the comparison between this and a Mac Mini. Fair enough, they try to be small form factor computers, but the end is surely different. the Mac Mini is designed to be a small, neat, consumer electronics device. Essentially a computer that is as easy to use as a DVD player.

The Shuttle is designed to be an expandable PC that has lots of flexibilty and can be modified by changing components so that it can fit the user's needs.

If the Mini does everything you need, buy a Mini. If you need flexibilty or expandablility, buy the Shuttle.

Just because they both try to be small, it doesn't mean that they are necessarily comparable.

In my (admittedly fairly worthless) opinion, the summary was using Mac Mini as a comparison just to make the front page.

Re:"New" form factor?

[Ohreally_factor]

At least the article didn't ask the question: Is this the Mac Mini killer?

Re:"New" form factor?

[aonaran]

I think that was just because the Mac mini has been getting a lot of press lately, so it's a familiar comparison point, and also because the Mac mini truely is SFF.

Re:"New" form factor?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's new because Apple released a similar product, even after years of these small Shuttle boxes being around. All SFF computers are hereafter doomed to be negatively compared against the Mac Mini as clones, copies, and less functional knockoffs - at least in places like Slashdot.

They copied Apple! They can't innovate! PC Lusers!

Re:"New" form factor?

[focitrixilous P]

And, what the hell is with the Mac Mini comparison?

It's the best comparision since Libraries of Congress for data storage and transfer.

Example 1: My new server is as tall as 8 mac minis, 4 minis wide, 3 minis thick, and 80 mac minis loud.

Example 2: My new USB mouse has 3 mac mini mouse's worth of buttons.

Welcome to the brave new world of indirect measurement.

Re:"New" form factor?

[Anonymous Coward]

Congratulations. Most idiotic comment of the day.

Re:"New" form factor?

[cyberwiz01]

I totally agree, IMO the whole point of a SFF system is to have an attractive, small and quiet desktop. This shuttle is not any of those. I remeber back when Shuttles used to be the cute shoebox sized computers that people loved and adored. I love my shiny, solid black SB62G2. It doesn't have any unneccesary plastic glued to the front bezel. The simple clean lines of it are very attractive IMO. It's kind of sad to see shuttle heading in this direction.

Re:"New" form factor?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Shuttle is designed to be an expandable PC that has lots of flexibilty and can be modified by changing components so that it can fit the user's needs. If the Mini does everything you need, buy a Mini. If you need flexibilty or expandablility, buy the Shuttle.

But the Mac Mini *is* expandable: I can plug in all my USB and Firewire devices. In fact, they work better on a Mac than either Linux or Windows. (And most of them weren't even designed for Mac use, so that's saying something.)

It's also flexible: it's so small, I can put it just about anywhere. (I consider "ooh, I can put it next to my TV and watch a DVD" to be *useful* flexibility -- "ooh, I can install the CPU myself" flexibility doesn't do anything for me.)

I went through the tweaking phase back in college. I grew out of it. There are more important things in life than tweaking your motherboard to get a couple more megahertz, or running the latest super-duper graphics card.

I need flexibility *and* expandability, so I'm getting a Mac Mini.

I think it would be more correct to say: "If you need to run Windows, or need to use the hottest graphics card available any given week, get the Shuttle."

Re:"New" form factor?

[Anonymous Coward]

iTunes is OK, but the Mac Mini doesn't have nTune.

How are you going to set your "RAS to CAS access - T (RCD)" on that Mac Mini?

Flexibility, indeed.

Re:"New" form factor?

[martian265]

They prefer to be called "Little Towers", you insensitive clod.

Re:"New" form factor?

[Anonymous Coward]

The only comparison made was with the size of the mac mini. You are all reading way too much into this. If I say something is the size of a quarter, does that mean I'm saying it is worth $0.25?

Re:"New" form factor?

[Anonymous Coward]

The mac mini is so god damn large, and compared to my zx spectrum it doesn't even have a keyboard builtin.

Re:"New" form factor?

[Anonymous Coward]

How are you going to set your "RAS to CAS access - T (RCD)" on that Mac Mini?

He probably isn't planing on it, but then he's probably hoping to have a system which doesn't crash from memory errors every half hour.

Re:"New" form factor?

[Anonymous Coward]

You neclect to say that the mac mini is slow as hell, it's gfx is slow as hell. It only has 1 memory slot (and yes, people do upgrade memory).

To sum it up, if the mac mini was ANY slower it would be classified as junk.

Re:"New" form factor?

[DeltaSigma]

"the Mac mini truely is SFF."

Oh come off it. Small Form Factor isn't a standardized form factor like ATX. Thus nothing could be closer to the Small Form Factor than the visionaries of it, and that would be Shuttle. The Mac-Mini has FAR more in common with Mini-ITX systems than it does SFF systems. A similarity undoubtedly acknowledged by Mac's engies with the "Mac-Mini" name. There's nothing "mini" about a shuttle box. The comparison of a mini-itx equivalent to a Small Form Factor class PC was just senseless.

Re:"New" form factor?

[Darren Winsper]

Some memory sticks don't report those values correctly. In other cases, the BIOS (or equivalent) doesn't set it correctly.

Re:"New" form factor?

[aonaran]

I never claimed it was a standardized form factor, I only claimed that the mac mini really is small I'd consider anything Mini-ITX to be SFF as well... for precisely that reason, SFF isn't a standard, it's a description. Whereas this shuttle box is more like a mini tower, there's nothing small form factor about it.

Re:"New" form factor?

[jackspenn]

You neclect to say that the mac mini is slow as hell, it's gfx is slow as hell. It only has 1 memory slot (and yes, people do upgrade memory).

1. It's a good starting point for people who are Windows/Linux users that would like to mess around with an Apple to see what OS X is about.
2. The MAC mini memory maxes out at 1 GB; my Linux file server running on an old DELL Optiplex GX1 is maxed out at 768 MB. My Windows XP laptop only has 256 MB.
3. The slow point of the Mac Mini is the HD, but with Firewire and USB 2, there are options.
4. It is designed to be a cheap entry level device, there are tradeoffs to keep the price down.
5. If you need more, the iMac G5 is also a pretty good deal for first time Apple users starting at $1,099.00 for "students" or friends of students.

Having learned Linux over the past few years and with OS X supporting many common UNIX commands along with having a killer GUI, I am very open to giving Apple a try.

Re:"New" form factor?

[fitten]

And you'd be wrong because these are smaller than a mini-tower. Here's a picture of my two Shuttle G-series SFF boxes. The P-series is only a little taller. If you take a Mac Mini and stand it on edge, that's the size of the front of the case. If you then extrude the Mini back a ways, that's the Shuttle SFF G-series case.

Re:"New" form factor?

[fitten]

My Shuttles can do every single thing you just mentioned with the exception of running OSX. Plus, I can do lots more stuff if I decide to, which you specifically mention you have no use for.

Different strokes for different folks, but claiming that upgrading a CPU or graphics card is worthless simply because you have no need for it is simply a worthless argument.

I went through the tweaking phase back in college. I grew out of it. There are more important things in life than tweaking your motherboard to get a couple more megahertz, or running the latest super-duper graphics card.

Yep, me too. But I do continue to play games and do things where having a nice video card is good. I can upgrade parts of my Shuttles and continue the life of the box for many years (I already have... I've owned two Shuttles for over two years now and have upgraded video, processors, and memory at different times). I don't have to run out and buy a whole new box just to gain one piece of new functionality. Add a video compression board so I can do Tivo like things? no problem, go out and buy one and put it in my Shuttle. That's about $40. Try to the same to your Mac Mini without buying a whole new box.

Re:"New" form factor?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's also flexible: it's so small, I can put it just about anywhere. (I consider "ooh, I can put it next to my TV and watch a DVD" to be *useful* flexibility -- "ooh, I can install the CPU myself" flexibility doesn't do anything for me.)

I went through the tweaking phase back in college. I grew out of it. There are more important things in life than tweaking your motherboard to get a couple more megahertz, or running the latest super-duper graphics card.

Just because all you do with your machine is check email, surf the web, and IM your friends doesn't mean that's all anyone else does with their machines.

Re:"New" form factor?

[jo42]

You mean "mid-tower"...

Re:"New" form factor?

[frankenbox]

I have a few AT cases which are small, they run at a whopping 66 mhz... How are we cooling this little wolverine?

Mini ATX

[glitch0]

What makes this any different from mini-ATX?

Looks very alike to me

Re:Mini ATX

[Anonymous Coward]

Mini-ATX is just a motherboard form factor, so a little different to a barebones case like this.

Re:Mini ATX

[UniverseIsADoughnut]

This is much smaller then micro-ATX, and a complete deferent form factor then anything else.

The reason shuttle is able to make the boxes like they do is not using a standard form-factor. The regular G sized shuttles are close to Flex-ATX, but not quite. This is a bit bigger. Then there is the BTX i Chassis which is really close to the BTX form factor but a good bit bigger then this machine.

where the real difference comes with shuttles is the packaging. You will be very hard pressed to find a micro atx case that is anywhere near this small, and has a CD that isn't vertical mounted, and accepts Full height PCI/AGP cards. Shuttles mean you have no trade offs from normal ATX machines, but they are much smaller.

Re:Mini ATX

[Anonymous Coward]

Mini-ITX. Not micro-atx. This is Mini ITX. This "SFF" thing is larger than a Mini ITX by a long shot. Just looking at the picture of the SFF motherboard you can see huge swaiths of unused space. Try and find a single unused square cm. on a Mini itx board.

Re:Mini ATX

[karlpell]

Not hard pressed at all to find a case that small with horizontal cd and full height PCI/AGP ... there's an Antec Aria attached to my keyboard. Oddly enough, the layout and hardware of the "new" machine look strikingly similar to the "old" Aria ... but I got to choose the mobo.

Re:Mini ATX

[gl4ss]

it's smaller. that's what it makes it different.

anyways, there's already a sff of about the same size with support for DUAL opterons. http://www.amdboard.com/iwill_zmaxdp.html.

and unlike the mac mini this one has the psu built in too.

Obsession over boxes

[[cx]]

How can people care so much if their box is all snazzy and fancy, it's the hardware dammit, it's what's on the inside that counts...or atleast that's what I tell myself everytime i look in the mirror...

excuse me, i think i have something in my eye..

Re:Obsession over boxes

[leathered]

The obsession with snazzy boxes is even more puzzling considering most users would spend 99% of their time looking at the screen.

Mind you a replacement for hideous 36" tall server case that I've constantly upgraded for the last six years would be most welcome :)

Re:Obsession over boxes

[Anonymous Coward]

"The obsession with snazzy boxes is even more puzzling considering most users would spend 99% of their time looking at the screen."

• Get a girlfriend ... you'll spend more time looking at the box...

Re:Obsession over boxes

[FLAGGR]

I have a mac mini, trust me, once you get a PC that has more than just hardware (lack of noise from fans, only bring a cd-ish thick etc) you don't want to back. Hell, I haven't used my linux setup in awhile because I can't stand the fan noise anymore. Ditto with the case size.

Re:Obsession over boxes

[Anonymous Coward]

So, what you're saying is, "Once you go Mac, you never go back?"

Re:Obsession over boxes

[Shadow99_1]

Unfortunately for me I can't sleep without fan noise anymore since I've had a running PC in my room for a decade now... I even have trouble sleeping in hotels and anywhere else I can't hear PC noises at night...

Guess I'll have to keep using my custom PC's instead...

Re:Obsession over boxes

[fr2asbury]

Must be sportin' a small form factor there yourself, eh big fella?

Re:Obsession over boxes

[hawk]

This is not a good sign for your marriage prospects . . .

:)

hawk

Re:Obsession over boxes

[MikeBabcock]

... and you buy Bose because they look pretty and produce something just barely resembling sound.

Re:Obsession over boxes

[sahonen]

Hmm, try bringing a small portable fan with you whenever you need to sleep in a hotel. That might work.

Re:Obsession over boxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Get a woman so hot she needs fan-cooling? ;-)

Re:Obsession over boxes

[mrchaotica]

I experienced exactly the same phenomenon when I bought an iBook. I attribute it mostly to Mac OS rather than form-factor and noise, though.

Re:Obsession over boxes

[Moraelin]

Well, in all fairness, you can silence a PC too. My second computer is unbelievably silent with its Antec Phantom fanless PSU, fanless graphics card (a Sapphire 9800 Pro Ultimate Edition, so it's not quite that slow either), sound dampening cage for the Samsung HDD, and only a 12 dBA Papst fan on the CPU.

(Yes, a low speed fan cools an Athlon XP 3000+ more than enough, if it has a good copper heatsink with lots of fins. In fact, it cools an A64 in a closed case just as well.)

In fact, I'd dare say it's more silent than a Mac Mini.

And my main A64 rig isn't that much noisier either, thanks to heavy soundproofing and pretty much re-engineering the case for airflow/noise. (Sad to say, most cases seem actually be designed to be just flashy and actually noisy, presumably because marketroids think that's what hi-tech is all about.)

On the other hand, I can definitely see the point of the Mac Mini anyway.

For starters, I don't expect many people to actually enjoy spending the ludicrious amounts of time I've spent to make those PCs silent. Not only the time to slap on some soundproofing mats and new fans, but also the many hours of experimentation to figure it all out.

Just buying a computer that's silent as it is, well, even I can see a point in that.

Also getting the warranty for it, is also a good point.

And I can also see that I've missed the other points of a Mac Mini by a mile. For example those padded sound-proofed cases are anything but small, and anything but easily transported.

Well, all that was a long way of saying that basically I aggree with you, but I'd say that the Mac Mini's strength is a combination of more factors than one. A PC can match or exceed it in any one aspect, even noise (as exemplified above) or even size (think: the OQO), but no PC yet matches it in all those aspects. Or even in most.

Re:Obsession over boxes

[Shadow99_1]

Uh this is slashdot... Your sure I have marriage prospects...?

Re:Obsession over boxes

[Anonymous Coward]

That's one of the main things that seperates/defines us nerds from the normal people...we tend to see things for what they are rather than what they appear to be.

gamecube lunchbox

[bird603568]

I like how now every thing is in a little box, gamecubes, mac minis, the cube lan party rigs. I would be cool to make a lunchbox that looks like that.

Re:gamecube lunchbox

[aardquark]

I like how now every thing is in a little box, gamecubes, mac minis, the cube lan party rigs. I would be cool to make a lunchbox that looks like that.

Actually, that has already been done.
http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/lunchboxpc/

Re:gamecube lunchbox

[subnova]

You mean like this?
http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/lunchboxpc/

Re:gamecube lunchbox

[krist0]

heh, us guys normally like things in small boxes, usually ourselves.

"tool free drive rails"

[Glowing Fish]

Does this mean sneaky little proprietary rails that keep things in by friction, but can never be exchanged with another system.

I hate those things.

The proper way a drive should be secured is with a Phillips screwdriver. It is not like a Phillips Screwdriver is some exotic tool that is hard to come by.

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[Oculus Habent]

I believe it's probably similar to those standard, snap-on plastic bits that have pins where standard drives have holes.

And there's a good chance that they are proprietary, but, why do you care? It's not like the screws aren't $4 for 50 or cheaper, and at least I don't move my major components in and out of my PC often.

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[Anonymous Coward]

Since every case comes with a bag of them, this is an issue? Take device out. Take new rails out of new bag from new case. Afix. Insert.

I'm as much of a luddite as the next guy. Hell, I insisted on using Lynx what past what was reasonable because "who wants their content to load slower." But come on. This is in the catagory of just not understanding how cheap it is to make them and mistakenly believing you're being charged for something you're not using (like keyboards and mice coming with PCs).

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[Dan East]

It is not like a Phillips Screwdriver is some exotic tool that is hard to come by.

Plus, if you use a magnetic screwdriver, you can degauss your HDD at the same time!

Dan East

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[pkinetics]

It looks like drop in to me. http://global.shuttle.com/Product/Barebone/SN25P.a sp

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[karnal]

Wouldn't that be "gaussing" your hard drive?

Unless you can somehow use the screwdriver to drive magnetism OUT of your hard drive :)

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

You can stack magnets on a hard drive and not "degauss" it.

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[Dan East]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=degauss
http://www.datalinksales.com/degaussers/hard_drive _degaussers.htm

Dan East

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[niker]

Since every case comes with a bag of them, this is an issue? Take device out. Take new rails out of new bag from new case. Afix. Insert.

Or, if you're not so lucky (like two of my friends), the computer you bought pre-assembled only came with two rail-sets, which are already being used: one for the HDD, the other for the CD-R.
A 15 minute installation of a new DVD drive turned out to be a fruitless afternoon, the DVD drive just sat on the bay, above the other drive.

I just don't see why the old phillips/hex/thumb screw needs replacement in this regard.

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[timmi]

Pretty much any tool-free design is going to be proprietary, and never totally "tool-free" essentially tool-free only means that you can remove the side panel and/or the optical/floppy/hard drive(s) from the case without a screwdriver.

Compaq's tool free cases actually require a torx #10 driver, and are actually quite ingenious.

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[Anonymous Coward]

Degaussing is typically done with an oscillating magnetic field, whose intensity is gradually reduced to zero. You can probably get at least some degaussing by waving a magnet (screwdriver) near an object and slowly withdrawing it as you do so. I wouldn't imagine it would be enough to erase data though (unless you kept at it for a *very* long time).

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[Queer Boy]

Does this mean sneaky little proprietary rails that keep things in by friction, but can never be exchanged with another system.

It probably means it keeps them in like the PowerMac G5.

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[Zakabog]

Actually, I have a Chieftec case with those proprietary rails that are held on with screws. It's one of the greatest things I've seen in a case, second to that hard drive tray (where you can put 3 hardrives in this tray that locks into the case and can be easily removed.) I've had to pull a CD drive out many many times to change jumper settings or test the drive or whatever, it makes my life so much easier, just unplug the drive and slide it out, when I'm done testing it, I can slide it back in. I never really swap the drive out permanently and if I do, I just unscrew the rails and keep them for another drive.

The screwdriver isn't hard to find. But what happens when you're working on the top floor of a house and the closest screw driver is in the garage? That's happened to me so many times and I never have to worry with my case. That's why I use thumbscrews for the side panel and the rails for my 5.25" drivs, I can just slide out drives whenever I need to. For the hard drives I just unlock the tray and take them out. When I need to take something out permanently I have to get the screw driver, but I usually don't do that.

Does this mean sneaky little proprietary rails that keep things in by friction, but can never be exchanged with another system.

So do you attach your rails with crazy glue? I don't understand, the rails you're talking about you can slide out the drive and they come right off. Then all you have to do is stick the drive in another computer, sure you don't have any screws for the drive now, but it's not like it's impossible to find 1 (or 2 if there's nothing for the drive to sit on) screws inside an open case. I don't see ANYTHING that's bad about these rails except when you lose them, but most of the time they're inside your case attached to a drive so they're very hard to lose. Plus you can always let the drive sit on the bottom and hope it doesn't slide around much.

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[Glowing Fish]

Well, some background on why I hate propietary rails.
I work at Free Geek .
We have, right now, about 1000 computers in our warehouse. (We don't bother to count, its somewhere in the four digits).
People bring us systems in all parts of repair and disrepair. Many of them are missing things like drive rails and bay covers. Some clever companties try to make clever case designs, with no standard bay covers and drive rails.
When we can't find the drive rails for the Compaq ConsumerStation5000, we have to recycle the entire system. Which isn't a problem, becuase we have a thousand more, buts its still annoying to recycle a computer system because the manufactors wanted cute pieces of plastic.

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[anagama]

I prefer wing nuts.

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd prefer pretty much anything over "100% thumb screws"!

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[Anonymous Coward]

My computer is tool-free and non-proprietary. I leave the side panel off!
The drives mount by screwing them into carriages which snap in, allowing easy removal of devices to the exterior of the case before unscrewing them.
Shove it in my desk, with a large cutout over the fans, and it's dead quiet too. (All the noise goes out the back and is mostly absorbed by the wall and some window cutains back there)

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[thank-u-for-sharing]

The proper way a drive should be secured is with a Phillips screwdriver. It is not like a Phillips Screwdriver is some exotic tool that is hard to come by.

A Philips #2, to be precise. Sometimes the #1, but it's not as common as the #2. The Leatherman Wave and Pro versions come with a #2. I've assembed an entire system w/ a Leatherman. The "tool free" crap does nothing for me :)

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[fitten]

I prefer SuperGlue and Duct Tape!!!

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[karnal]

1. To neutralize the magnetic field of (a ship, for example).
2. To erase information from (a magnetic disk or other storage device).


Thanks. I was trying to be funny, seeing as holding a screwdriver (magnetic) next to something would gauss it.

Using an electric degausser would be the proper way to wipe away a magnetic field, not using a poorly gaussed screwdriver. geeesh..

Re:"tool free drive rails"

[limegreen]

My hard drives are in hot swap RAID cages. Fairly proprietary, but very, very useful.

The Basic Joke

[vjmurphy]

Insert lame joke about said hardware not being able to handle a slashdotting, despite the fact that said hardware is not running the web site.

Re:The Basic Joke

[MikeCapone]

How do you know it's not running the web site?

Re:The Basic Joke

[Anonymous Coward]

Duh!
It's not running the web site because it is /.ed!

oooooooohh

[Anonymous Coward]

it's an "in-depth" review. it must be good! in-depth!

The curse

[Fraew]

Slashdotted within 3 posts

Like a Mac Mini

[Geogriffith]

It's like a Mac Mini, but useful!

Re:Like a Mac Mini

[Shadow99_1]

Oh come on slahdotters! I thought it was funny... To bad I don't have any mod points today...

No dimensions?

[Anonymous Coward]

I may be blind but I couldn't find the dimensions of this bare-bones unit anywhere in TFA. So then I went to www.shuttle.com, and I couldn't find this particular model anywhere. As the article states, it apparently is not for sale yet. Then I started looking at the specs sheets for the P-series models and couldn't find dimensions there either.

It appears to be bigger than a breadbox to me, and with my total inability to find the dimensions (which are likely on the front page of the article) that description will have to do.

Re:No dimensions?

[bad_fx]

Here:

http://global.shuttle.com/Product/Barebone/SN25P.a sp

Dimensions: 320 x 210 x 220 (L x W x H)

Re:No dimensions?

[bad_fx]

BTW, in inches that comes to around 12.5 x 8.5 x 8.6

I dunno how big the standard breadbox is so I'm afraid I can't give it to you in "breadboxes". ;)

Re:No dimensions?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about 'space shuttle cargo bays'? - can you give it in that? ;P

Re:No dimensions?

[ziggy_zero]

The real question is, if they wanted to make it look small and space-saving, why did they take a wide-angle photo of it to make it look like some behemoth?

Re:No dimensions?

[iggymanz]

there's alot of variety in size amoung breadboxes, but they're about 10 x 17 x 7"

MirrorDot URL

[scdeimos]

Don't know why they don't mention this things in the article... MirrorDot

Re:MirrorDot URL

[scdeimos]

Oh, and: in-depth review article

Re:MirrorDot URL

[Anonymous Coward]

because true nerds don't want mirrordot to be /. as well...do we?

Re:MirrorDot URL

[keeleysam]

Because for somehting to go on mirrordot, the real link has to be in the article, and the mirrordot link isn't known before created.

Re:MirrorDot URL

[timeOday]

Thanks for the mirror, but don't these review websites live and die by getting hits? Does mirrordot somehow credit the original site for ad hits?

Re:MirrorDot URL

[mixmasta]

the mirrordot faq says it is add hit friendly.

Re:MirrorDot URL

[mixmasta]

the mirrordot faq says it is ad-hit friendly.

Re:MirrorDot URL

[OverlordQ]

yay the first page . . where's the other 16 pages?

Re:MirrorDot URL

[Anonymous Coward]

So...what's wrong with that. Every commercial site live and die by ad hits. Is there something wrong with that? Even Slashdot lives and dies by ad hits.

Re:MirrorDot URL

[Anonymous Coward]

If these review websites live and die by getting hits, then they could build themselves a web server that dosent fall over as soon as they start getting them.

Re:MirrorDot URL

[jericho4.0]

He's pointing out that, by providing a mirror, you might be taking hits away from the original content provider.

Re:MirrorDot URL

[British]

He's pointing out that, by providing a mirror, you might be taking hits away from the original content provider.

Well, if the original site was down due to slashdotting, there would be no hits in question to take away.

Upgrading?

[glitch0]

I bet it's a bitch to try and upgrade. Your best bet is to hire a midget with small hands to help out...

Re:Upgrading?

[halltk1983]

Just helped move 2 of my friends boxes into these... the aren't really hard at all. They stay pretty cool too, not bad at all. Now I'm considering switching my server over...
The best thing is how little room they take... and you can stack them on top of each other...

Re:Upgrading?

[jvj1]

Let me know how the switch goes... I'll also consider switching.. 8)

Re:Upgrading?

[zaffir]

I have a Shuttle SN95G5, it's actually smaller than the P series Shuttles. While it isn't the easiest thing to work inside of it's certainly not hard. Shuttle has done an amazing job designing their SFF boxes. Just about anything requires the removal of the video card, but that's easy to do.

Power supplies

[leathered]

I small concern I would have is the size of the power supply, most Shuttles only come with a 250W PSU and there could be problems driving the latest PCIe gfx cards.

On the other hand, power supply ratings are very subjective with many cheap ~500W PSUs having no greater capacity that a quality 300W unit.

Re:Power supplies

[Zemrec]

This month I built a SN95G5 Shuttle (Athlon 64, Nforce3 Ultra chipset [AGP 8X not PCIex]) and I threw in a Geforce 6800 GT 256MB DDR3. Works just fine on the PSU thats included (250W I think?)

Re:Power supplies

[Echo|Fox]

The P series Shuttles all come with 350W power supplies. Pretty much neccesary for a power hungry PCIe graphics card, 3 hard drives, optical drive, etc.

There is a 350W P series with a Prescott P4 that works just fine ... the far less power hungry Athlon64 should be even better off.

Re:Power supplies

[timeOday]

It has a 350W PSU.

(That's a link to the chassis this story is about).

Re:Power supplies

[fm6]

So it sounds like a jet engine when you turn it on? I begin to lose interest...

Re:Power supplies

[Echo|Fox]

Adjustable fan speeds, from 800 to 4000 rpm. If you read the article, the volume from the front is 48db, which is fairly impressive. Quieter than the 2nd gen G series Shuttles which I've seen/heard in person.

Re:Power supplies

[fm6]

I couldn't read the article!

Bristles?

[snuf23]

Just what we need. PCs labeled as being "bristley".

"I would have loved to buy that powerful Athlon 64, but the system bristled with ports, unlike the smooth surface of my legacy free Mac mini."

Re:Bristles?

[Pierre]

I wonder if I could install an OS to make me WinCE. That would go great with hardware that makes me Bristle.

Re:Bristles?

[Queer Boy]

"I would have loved to buy that powerful Athlon 64, but the system bristled with ports, unlike the smooth surface of my legacy free Mac mini."

The important thing to note is that Longhorn is going to require signed drivers and that it will not support parallel, serial or PS2. All that extra hardware (that no matter at what cost you are still paying for) is going to be as useless as a floppy drive in Mac OS X.

I refused to buy a boombox for quite a while because I saw no need to have to pay for a cassette tape player when I would never use it.

Re:Bristles?

[Anonymous Coward]

Cute, but you make a good point.

When are PC makers going to drop the stupid legacy ports? I can understand *some* models having legacy ports, but I can't find *any* model without them!

It's 2005, folks. I don't need an RS-232 port, a parallel port, PS/2 ports, and a game port. I need USB, Firewire, ethernet, and DVI.

People wonder why anybody would install Linux on a Mac Mini ... maybe it has something to do with PC makers who can't manage to make a computer that isn't crammed full of the best of 1970's technology.

Re:Bristles?

[LurkerXXX]

It's 2005, folks. I don't need an RS-232 port, a parallel port, PS/2 ports, and a game port

You might not. But lots of others of us do. I f you want a legacy free systems, there are a good number available. Look around more.

Re:Bristles?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't need an RS-232 port, a parallel port, PS/2 ports, and a game port. I need USB, Firewire, ethernet, and DVI.

How nice for you. Feel free not to use them. I on the other hand do need all of those things. I need a parallel port to plug in my perfectly good HP DeskJet 690C. I need PS/2 ports to plug in my perfectly good keyboard and mouse. I certainly need my RS-232 port so that I can plug in a null modem cable and use it to access a kernel debugger when the system crashes[1]. On the other hand I don't need USB because I don't have any USB peripherals, I certainly don't need and nor will I ever need Firewire, I have Ethernet and I can't use flat panel monitors anyway because I have a sight defect that means I get very bad headaches at anything less than ~75Hz refresh rates, so DVI can take a running leap as far as I'm concerned.

Still, we all know Microsoft are the only arbiters of what their customers want and do not want so I guess we should all just sit back and relax, warm in the knowlege that Microsoft are looking out for us.

[1]: Not Linux.

Re:Bristles?

[Darren Winsper]

Do you have a link to where MS have stated that Longhorn will have those limitations? There's pretty much bugger all systems or being sold that don't have at least one of those ports. I highly doubt MS would drop support for them like that.

Re:Bristles?

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, you must hate florescent lighting then...

Re:Bristles?

[Anonymous Coward]

To everybody who replied that *they* still need RS-232 to hook up their 1970's equipment, thank you for completely missing the point. :P

The point (since you need it spelled out again) is not that no motherboard should have legacy ports. It's that at least *some* motherboards on the market should have no legacy ports.

The closest I've ever found was the Abit MAX series. But it's not actually legacy-free, and it's still full-sized ATX, defeating the primary purpose of getting rid of legacy ports. Gah.

(That's like making a "wireless" phone by taking a pair of scissors to the cord. Not helpful, guys.)

If there are "a good number available", they've managed to make them so hard to find that after actively looking for such a beast, I came up with nothing. If you can find one -- other than those made by Apple -- please post.

Beware of heat

[salimma]

I have the previous-generation Shuttle AMD64 model - the SN95 - and I must say that even with two 3.5" drives, cooling them can be a problem.

So even though it has 3 3.5" slots you'd probably be better off putting in at most two drives and investing in heat sinks for them.

Without additional cooling, even with one hard drive I had to set the fan to 'medium', up from 'Smart fan' to avoid overheating within a few hours.

Re:Beware of heat

[Anonymous Coward]

I've also got one of the G-chasis family shuttles, and these new ones have the hard drives mounted in quite a different position - they sit across the top of the case, rather than below the 5.25" bay as they used to. It's supposed to improve the airflow to them - whether it works remains to be seen I guess, especially since you can now get 3 drives into them.

PCI-X Expansion Slot Only?

[timeOday]

Why is PCI-66 (and beyond) being passed over? There are many high-end network interfaces, frame grabber boards, etc. that will not be available in PCI-X for some time. I just built a Shuttle box and had to go with an older, PCI-33 model for compatibility reasons.

Why is the industry going with PCI-X, rather than PCI-Express or PCI-66 which are both speedy AND backwards compatitble?

Re:PCI-X Expansion Slot Only?

[Anonymous Coward]

This box has PCI Express, both an x16 slot for graphics cards, and an x1 for other expansion / ignored for double-wide graphics cards.

Also, this is a Pico BTX case and motherboard mostly, for AMD. The DIMMs are rotated around from the standard, and the cooling is across the board, not along the board.

Re:PCI-X Expansion Slot Only?

[atrus]

Note that PCI-X != PCIe. PCI-X is the 133MHz PCI derivative which is backwards compatible with 66mhz and 33mhz cards, whereas PCIe is the not backwards compatible serial link PCI. One PCIe slot/lane has a transfer rate of ~250MB/s (2x PCI). You can easily add mroe lanes to each slot. So with graphics, you have 16 PCIe lanes at 250MB/s each.

Re:PCI-X Expansion Slot Only?

[timeOday]

You're right, I got it backwards - this board has PCI-Express, which is incompatible with PCI.

But my question is, why isn't the industry going with the backwards-compatible solution? Isn't PCI-X good enough, except perhaps for the video card?

Re:PCI-X Expansion Slot Only?

[bani]

1) it already has integrated 1000bt, unless you want to go 10gbe there's no point.

2) unless you're capturing HDTV resolutions, a firewire capture device will do fine. i'm also unaware of any PCI-66 framegrabber cards that even exist (nor any which would _need_ PCI-66 to function). hell, PCI-33 is even fine for HDTV capture. bonus: you can disconnect the firewire device when not in use, and save power. also saves a slot which can be used for other devices instead.

PCI-66 is also more expensive to design boards for. PCI express is faster and simpler than PCI-66 and cheaper to design for. PCI express connector can also take much less board space, which is a major issue in SFF designs.

when almost all of the devices you would want to use are already integrated onto the motherboard, backwards compat is less of an issue... when I upgraded to my amd64 motherboards I ended up ditching a lot of expansion cards (gigabit, serial ata, firewire), because everything was already integrated.

Re:PCI-X Expansion Slot Only?

[atrus]

I think it might be in part Intel's desire to be the 'bus master' (like all the buses before PCI were not Intel products, and intel heavily pushed PCI). I'm not sure where PCI derivatives such as PCI-X stand though.

Re:PCI-X Expansion Slot Only?

[mlyle]

Primarily PCI Express is a replacement for AGP, rather than PCI; it's primarily a video interface on the desktop.

Re:PCI-X Expansion Slot Only?

[black mariah]

But my question is, why isn't the industry going with the backwards-compatible solution?

It is technically inferior, and at some point you have to let go of the past. I know that's a terribly hard thing for Slashdotters (*COUGH vi *COUGH*) to do, but sometimes the best thing to do is just pave over the area and get on with your lives.

And if you get THAT reference, I'll give you a dollar.

Offer void everywhere.

Re:PCI-X Expansion Slot Only?

[onemorechip]

it's primarily a video interface on the desktop. No. It *is* replacing AGP, but it isn't limited to that. PCI Express devices are being developed or are already being produced to support networking, mass storage, and so on. Pretty much anything you can buy a PCI card for today, you will be able to buy an Express card for now or in 1 to 2 years time. There's even a PCMCIA-style form factor using PCI Express, and a daughterboard form factor for use in laptops.

Re:PCI-X Expansion Slot Only?

[onemorechip]

I don't know if you meant to say something else, but you cannot "easily add more lanes to each slot". If the root complex or switch driving that slot has 4 lanes, 4 lanes is all you will get from that slot; if it has 8 lanes, 8 lanes is all you will get.

Re:PCI-X Expansion Slot Only?

[atrus]

I basicly meant to say that there were multiple options in terms of the number of lanes per slot. So add a lane, you got a 2x slot. Of course this is all hardware

Re:PCI-X Expansion Slot Only?

[Queer Boy]

One PCIe slot/lane has a transfer rate of ~250MB/s (2x PCI). You can easily add mroe lanes to each slot. So with graphics, you have 16 PCIe lanes at 250MB/s each.

That's interesting because IBM says PCI express runs at 200 MB/s. There's also only 1,2,4,8 and 16x to the specification.

I think I'm having Déjà Vu. I am reading that one of the great advantages of PCI express is its ability to talk to other cards without going through the CPU. Hmm, doesn't PCI have this now?

Re:PCI-X Expansion Slot Only?

[mlyle]

I know; I've developed boards using PCI Express switches. It is nice to use (routing 70-some signals for 64 bit PCI sucks); but right now, its deployment on the desktop has been limited to video.

Re:PCI-X Expansion Slot Only?

[atrus]

Fair enough. 250MB/s is not totally out though (from the same article) This encoding explains differences in the published spec speeds of 250 MBps (with the embedded clock overhead) and 200 MBps (data only, without the overhead)..

No, I'm not saying you can count the clock as data. Just 250MB/s isn't wrong, since it is the actual signaling rate.

Hmm

[Traldan]

Looks interesting. Good to see a greater Atholon 64 availability with PCI Express. I wish it had been as easily accessible when I bought my comp.

Re:Hmm

[stel]

I fully understand. I should have waited a few weeks before buying Shuttle SN95G5 which also sports a Socket 939, but lacks the PCI-E.....oh well.

Re:What's with the colors?

[Anonymous Coward]

This will fix it for you:

http://lolitasex.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=14 03 31&threshold=0&mode=nested&commentsort=0&op=Change

Re:Mac Mini will outsell that

[BoomerSooner]

Why is it always a competition?

If you find something that fits you and you're the only person in the world that likes it who cares if it sells 1,000,000 copies or 1, as long as you get what you like.

BTW, Dell will sell more shitty OptiPlex GX280's than Apple will sell mini's. Does it make them better? Or do the specs make the better? Or is it the price that makes it better? The reality is your opinion is what makes something better. Unfortunately you have yet to learn it is only better to you.

Re:What's with the colors?

[Anonymous Coward]

nah. try this one :
http://STFUasshole.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid =14 0331&threshold=-1&mode=nested&commentsort=0&op=Cha nge

Re:Mac Mini will outsell that

[timeOday]

The comparison with Mac Mini is ridiculous. The Mac is a far smaller. The Shuttle is far faster, more expandable, and more expensive. So what is better? Obviously it depends.

I recently built a video acquisition box for work. I wanted the smallest case that could support RAID, a fast processor, and an addon PCI board (the frame grabber). The Shuttle was the perfect choice.

But if I were buying a computer for my wife or kids, the Mac would probably be better.

It all depends on your needs.

Re:Mac Mini on Steroids

[MikeCapone]

On steroids, yeah.. Except that it's disqualified from running OS X (the main reason people buy Mac Minis, I guess).

Re:Mac Mini will outsell that

[jbarket]

You're making an irrelevant comparison.

Shuttle builds components. The SN25P, like all of the XPCs, is simply a custom barebones. It's not intended to compete with the Mac Mini because it's not a complete computer.

If this was an OEM selling full systems built around an XPC, it would be a little more on point... but still not really.

Does the Mac Mini support top of the line processors or external videocards? I think not. I'm a big Mac fan, but you're just trolling.

Re:Mac Mini on Steroids

[lakerdonald]

See?! Steroids ruin lives!

Still a lot of wasted space...

[Anonymous Coward]

I never understood why Shuttle doesn't adjust the form factor to take laptop sized optical drives. A normal cd / dvd drive takes up almost the entire lenght of the case, the power and data cables are usually pressed right up against the power supply.
Using a laptop optical drive would get rid of that problem, increase air flow, and it would save at least an inch in the case height.

Re:Still a lot of wasted space...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah...and add another $100+ to system cost...

Re:Still a lot of wasted space...

[Anonymous Coward]

Adding notebook components would add around $80-$140 to the total cost of the system and in the long run you would end up with, well, a laptop. These SFF kits are designed to run with components found in standard PC's (some of which you might already have). Serial ATA will help eliminate some cabling (and power???) concerns. As to heat and air flow I'm not sure but if you replace the components with laptop components then shrink the case aren't you dealing with the same concerns as the regular sized unit?

Re:Still a lot of wasted space...

[TobyWong]

Because that is contrary to the entire shuttle philosophy.

They aren't trying to make the smallest systems possible they are making small systems that use off the shelf no-compromise components such as HDDs and vid cards.

How about noise?

[lakeland]

I've got a pegasos machine currently for my low end server behind my DSL line. It satisfies some of my requirements (fairly small, low power consumption) and it is fun to play with a different arch. However, it is too slow, too hot, and too loud.

I guess I could replace it with a mac mini and then I'd only have the problem of it being too slow, but I've been thinking of fixing all the problems by replacing it with a 'low end' SFF A64 since they use less power when idle but have the grunt when necessary. However I have been concerned that Shuttle haven't thought about noise ever since I played with a SFF P4 box that sounded like a jet engine.

Re:How about noise?

[martinde]

I have a Shuttle SN95G5. It's very cool and quiet. I've got a Winchester core Athlon 64 3200+, which is supposedly lower power than the older cores. All I know is the machine is fast, cool, and quiet. (Unlike the grandparent post, I have only one hard disk in this machine so I have not seen any cooling issues.)

Re:How about noise?

[salimma]

At medium fan speed it is quite noisy (disregard the Ars Technica report that said otherwise - they left the fan speed at auto).. for a low-end server I'd recommend an ITX motherboard running a non-Intel, non-AMD solution .. or the Mac mini.

Yes, But...

[John Hasler]

...how many serial ports does it have?

Re:Yes, But...

[Anonymous Coward]

One. RTFA.

Re:Yes, But...

[wpmegee]

One. http://global.shuttle.com/Product/Barebone/SN25P.a sp

Re:Yes, But...

[Barlo_Mung_42]

"...how many serial ports does it have?"

My hope would be one. More than that is too many but none is too few. One would be just right.

Re:Yes, But...

[anagama]

• "...how many serial ports does it have?"
  
  My hope would be one. More than that is too many but none is too few. One would be just right.

I know I'm in a minority here on serial ports, but a couple years ago I actually had to buy a serial port card for an extra port. I use a couple digital multimeters to monitor the rise and fall of temperature in a kiln I have and they both send data over a serial cable. I wish I could find a laptop with two serial ports!

Re:Yes, But...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you read the first page or looked at the second page, you would see it has exactly 1 serial Port.

Re:Yes, But...

[Anonymous Coward]

USB-to-Serial adapters have come down in price a lot and work very well nowadays. You can get them for under $20.

Re:Yes, But...

[John Hasler]

> I know I'm in a minority here on serial ports...

You are undoubtedly in a minority, but not a minority of one. I was not entirely joking. I prefer to have at least two serial ports. I was surprised and pleased to learn that the machine as even one (not that I can afford such a thing anyway).

Re:Yes, But...

[Barlo_Mung_42]

Heh. I assumed you were going the other way and wanting none. Or more likely a Mac fanboy gloating about a sleek port deprived Apple design.

Re:Yes, But...

[jbridge21]

I also need at least two serial ports, preferably three.

And what's more, one of them can't be USB-attached, it has to be real. LIRC with the Packard Bell remote. Not quite sure what I'm going to do if I'm looking for a new computer and can't find one with any real ports.

For the other two ports, those $20 USB adapters work... although it feels kinda like a ripoff. "Let's make the motherboard cheaper by leaving off some connectors... then make you buy crappier versions of them for more money than it would have cost to just put them onboard in the first place."

5.25 drive...

[MyIS]

supports one 5.25" drive

Does that I mean I can get to my old pr0n collection now?

great spec , shame its in an ugly oblong box

[Anonymous Coward]

just like every other PC manufacturer, i guess good asthetic design isnt something the PC market is very good at, they have had years to get it right and we still see the same old rectangular boxes dragged out year after year meaning they have learned NOTHING from Apple
shuttle are just like every other crappy boxbuilder, no innovation, just slam in the latest OEM cards from nvi/ati and then double the price

Re:great spec , shame its in an ugly oblong box

[toddestan]

There are hundreds of cases out there in the PC world, don't like this one? Find another. Atleast with a PC I'm not stuck with whatever Steve Jobs thinks is cool.

For the record, I think Apple makes some pretty cool looking cases (like the Mac Mini). But they have some butt-ugly stuff too (like any of the iMacs).

But each to their own.

Re:great spec , shame its in an ugly oblong box

[Anonymous Coward]

There are hundreds of cases out there in the PC world, don't like this one? Find another.

Right, because we all know that hundreds of ugly cases are better than 2 nice ones.

Is 300 different cases enough, if they're all butt-ugly? Is 3 not enough, if they're all beautiful?

Apple's cases aren't cool because some committee told us we're supposed to think they're cool. They're cool because they'r beautiful, *in addition* to being practical: the hallmark of good design.

(You can stick a DVD in the side of the display! How is that not cool? I can't count how many times I've had to reach around to find the teeny button to open the disc tray on some far-away optical drive on a PC. And half the time, it's hidden away under the desk, so I bang my head, too. Not cool.)

Re:great spec , shame its in an ugly oblong box

[fitten]

Is 300 different cases enough, if they're all butt-ugly? Is 3 not enough, if they're all beautiful?

First, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The (lamp) iMac and eMac are ass ugly to me, for example. 300+ cases mean *choice*. I want a case to match my purple with orange polkadot wallpaper? I bet I can find one. I like the color green? I bet I can find a green case. I can personalize my computer to my own aesthetics, even if you think it is ugly. Personally, I think wasting time over a case is kinda silly because I can always put an ugly case in a closet or otherwise out of sight, as long as the case has other qualities I like, such as good airflow, nice mounting brackets, etc.

Apple's cases aren't cool because some committee told us we're supposed to think they're cool. They're cool because they'r beautiful, *in addition* to being practical: the hallmark of good design.

Sure they are... the committee decided those are the only cases you will get. No choice, you have to like them or love them.

Re:great spec , shame its in an ugly oblong box

[Anonymous Coward]

First, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

A good way to try to sidestep the fact that they're all butt-ugly! :-) (It's a cute saying, and it's good for avoiding arguments, but it's not helpful in figuring out what's good.)

300+ cases mean *choice*. I want a case to match my purple with orange polkadot wallpaper? I bet I can find one.

If you have purple and orange polkadot wallpaper, I question your ability to judge beauty.

And sadly, in the PC world, "choice" means "I can find one butt-ugly enough to match my butt-ugly wallpaper".

Personally, I think wasting time over a case is kinda silly because I can always put an ugly case in a closet or otherwise out of sight, as long as the case has other qualities I like, such as good airflow, nice mounting brackets, etc.

Translation: "Hey, this PC case isn't ugly! OK, this one is, but you have choice -- not all PC cases are ugly! I mean, OK, they're all ugly, but who cares?"

Anybody who's banged his head on the desk trying to put a CD in an out-of-sight PC tower should realize that it matters. Tear up my geek membership card if you must, but being able to put a CD in the drive without (literally) hitting my head on my desk is far more important than "nice mounting brackets".

Sure they are... the committee decided those are the only cases you will get. No choice, you have to like them or love them.

Jonathan Ive (or was that Princell Leia?): "I am *not* a committee!"

Seriously, though, Apple computers aren't designed by committee. They're designed by Jonathan Ive, and his team. You can tell because they have what Fred Brooks and Alan Cooper call conceptual integrity. Dells and HPs don't -- they obviously *were* designed by committee.

People do have a choice about what to like. Not all Apple products are loved. The first iBooks, for example, were hated by many (including me); the new design is much, much better.

Re:great spec , shame its in an ugly oblong box

[fitten]

First, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

A good way to try to sidestep the fact that they're all butt-ugly! :-) (It's a cute saying, and it's good for avoiding arguments, but it's not helpful in figuring out what's good.)

Are you saying that the measure of beauty is not subjective?

300+ cases mean *choice*. I want a case to match my purple with orange polkadot wallpaper? I bet I can find one.

If you have purple and orange polkadot wallpaper, I question your ability to judge beauty.

And sadly, in the PC world, "choice" means "I can find one butt-ugly enough to match my butt-ugly wallpaper".

No... you'd simply have a different set of aesthetics. Some people like to dress in clothes that have colors/patterns that are not "beautiful" to me. However, I assume that they think they are, otherwise they wouldn't be adorning their bodies with those clothes.

Personally, I think wasting time over a case is kinda silly because I can always put an ugly case in a closet or otherwise out of sight, as long as the case has other qualities I like, such as good airflow, nice mounting brackets, etc.

Translation: "Hey, this PC case isn't ugly! OK, this one is, but you have choice -- not all PC cases are ugly! I mean, OK, they're all ugly, but who cares?"

Nope, again... you have the choice to make your case as nice or as plain/ugly as you want. Also, what about the PC mods that are put into Mac cases. Does this somehow mean that those cases are no longer belovedly Apple beautiful?

Anybody who's banged his head on the desk trying to put a CD in an out-of-sight PC tower should realize that it matters. Tear up my geek membership card if you must, but being able to put a CD in the drive without (literally) hitting my head on my desk is far more important than "nice mounting brackets".

Most PC users are smart enough not to repeatedly bang their heads on a desk.

Sure they are... the committee decided those are the only cases you will get. No choice, you have to like them or love them.

Jonathan Ive (or was that Princell Leia?): "I am *not* a committee!"

Seriously, though, Apple computers aren't designed by committee. They're designed by Jonathan Ive, and his team. You can tell because they have what Fred Brooks and Alan Cooper call conceptual integrity. Dells and HPs don't -- they obviously *were* designed by committee.

Ok... Apple computers are designed by a [self-]constituted organization for the promotion of a common object, which happens to be the definition of "committee" as per Merriam Webster I guess in this case, it's a Steve-constituted organization though.

People do have a choice about what to like. Not all Apple products are loved. The first iBooks, for example, were hated by many (including me); the new design is much, much better.

This statement completely contradicts what you said above. You implied that beauty is not subjective and yet here you clearly say it is.

When it comes down to it, as an expression of personality, the modding scene is much, much more evident in the PC world than in the Mac world. There may be a number of reasons for this ranging from... PCs are initially ugly and modders make them 'beautiful' to their own tastes, PC modders simply have the artistic and mechanical skills to personalize things they already have, to Mac users are of a single mind-set and know no better than to embrace what the Great Steve blesses them with from time to time.

Honestly... since the Mac Mini was released and seeing the comments in this thread of Maclots claiming that the Mini is the "true SFF", form over function arguments, proclaiming that all PCs are ugly and Macs are embodied perfection... the more that "The Cult of Mac" makes sense. It's more of a religion to Mac users than anything else. As I saw elsewhere, The Great Steve could probably relieve himself in a Mac M

emm386

[pchan-]

Oh noes, it's EMS versus XMS all over again.

5-1/4 drive.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha! I knew if I held on to my 5-1/4 floppy drive, that eventually it would be useful again! In your face, Obsolete hardware!!!

Re:Mac Mini will outsell that

[Anonymous Coward]

I felt the same way when I owned an Apple ][+ and there were a lot of fellow geek owners.

I felt the same way when I owned an Apple //gs and Apple systematically dismantled its Apple II efforts for the Mac. There were still a few diehard Apple II 'ers then.

Now I own a PC and don't feel the same.

I found Pictures

[GoodNicsTken]

Inside the Case
Outside the case

Mac Mini.

[dameron]

several times the size of a Mac Mini, the SN25P is an entirely different breed of small form factor system

Translation:

"I know she's kinda weird, into Wicca and generates a lot of heat, but she's cute in the face, so I'll compare her to Keira Knightly anyway."

-dameron

Re:Mac Mini will outsell that

[JWhiton]

Well, there is the reality that if you buy a computer platform that doesn't sell well, you'll have a tougher time with it later. One issue is hardware support and extendability... a discontinued product is a lot harder to get fixed or buy new peripherals for. Also, in the case of the Mac Mini, higher sales will increase the installed base of OS X users, encouraging more software development for the platform.

I agree that you should buy what's best for yourself, but if you're the only one on the planet with your platform, then you're not gonna be able to do much with it.

Is SFF worth it?

[UserChrisCanter4]

Note: excuse my references to the Lanboy. I'm not trying to whore for Antec; it's just that their product is the most readily recognizable example of the design I'm referencing.

During the last two years of college, I got very into the LAN scene. All the guys I worked with were big on LAN gaming, and some people at my apartment complex were into it. Even my girlfriend had her LAN machine (in addition to her art major necessity Mac), which she decorated with Hello Kitty stencils on the requisite LAN computer window and dubbed "Halo Kitty."

We mostly leaned toward aluminum cases for weight benefits coupled with smaller LCDs. Because a fair amount of us were PC repair techs, we'd always have that one slightly older machine that could still easily hang with the games we played. New people would show up, get hooked, and start wanting to build/buy something so that they could participate.

A few people ended up with Shuttles or similar SFF cases. While fairly convenient in size, we consitently saw overheating issues and high noise levels. Shoehorning a good graphics card into these things (since LAN action is obviously a target market) sends heat levels through the roof, and the smaller size means only one fan. The need for a single fan means that fan must turn at very high speeds. This made for some excessive noise levels, especially for people who wanted to use these as their primary computer, and (logically) envisioned setting them atop their desk beside the monitor.

So the question out of all of this is here: are these SFF designs worth it? I love the convenient size of the Mac Mini as much as the next guy, but (in addition to being much smaller than most SFF PCs) they target a totally different market. When I look at these squatty boxes and compare them to an Antec Lanboy or other similar aluminum chassis w/ handles, I start wondering.

Isn't it just smarter to buy a lightweight mini-tower? With space for 3HDDs, isn't that what this thing really is, anyway? A Lanboy comes with a carry strap, weighs less than 20 lbs. loaded with an HDD and optical drive, and avoids the excessive heat and noise levels generated by the SFF design. While a Lanboy might be 2 or 2.5 times taller, it's also skinnier, so we're not talking about a huge gain there. On top of this, I get to choose my own internal components, whereas I was always put off of these because I'd end up having to use a shuttle mainboard.

So SFF buyers, what draws you to these things?

Re:Is SFF worth it?

[Facekhan]

I built a shuttle SK43G (athlon XP) for my mom in July and it is a lot quieter than my mid-tower desktop and easily 20 times quieter than a powerful laptop. This despite that my midtower sits under the desk on carpet and her shuttle sits on her desk on glass. Except when it first turns on its almost silent. There is no AGP card in there though. Just 2 hard drives and cd burner.

Re:Is SFF worth it?

[Anonymous Coward]

There's plenty of SFF that's smaller than that box, for one thing.

For another, SFF cooling tech has gotten progressively better since you were in college. Shuttle's newer boxes make liberal usage of heatpiping and custom fan designs to solve the heat/noise problems. Recently I've noticed lots of mention that they are fairly quiet.

And the features of SFF boards are actually often better than what you would find if you moved up a step to mATX. This isn't ALWAYS the case, but I did comparisons when I built my A64 last summer and although I did end up with an mATX desktop with full-size PSU(which was what settled the deal for me IIRC), the SFFs looked awfully tempting.

Re:Is SFF worth it?

[mixmasta]

just a thought .... maybe not everyone is a gamer. Maybe they don't want their desk taken over by a big, bulky box. ;)

Re:Is SFF worth it?

[UserChrisCanter4]

Well, I left college less than a year ago. The shuttle SFFs I'm personally familiar with were NForce2-based AthlonXP numbers sporting heatpipes and BIOS-controlled fan systems. And these things were noisy as crap.

Thing is, for all the reviews that mention an SFF being quieter than expected, I see plenty of online posts from people who stuck a Radeon 9800-range card in one and now have to override fan control to keep the thing at a tolerable temperature.

Re:Is SFF worth it?

[Anonymous Coward]

I also do a lot of lanning and every single SFF box I see at a lan has its case removed because it's overheating. I can't see how putting 300W of heating (CPU, Video, RAM, HDD) into something that small with restricted airflow could lead to anything else.

Re:Is SFF worth it?

[UserChrisCanter4]

That's why my computer sits under the desk.

Not only that, but non-gamers have plenty of small-ish options available to them. Shuttle goes out of their way to accomodate full-height expansion cards, premium mobo features such as GigE and SPDIF audio, and premium expansion slots generally reserved for high-end video cards. If you want a small computer, there are hundreds of tiny MicroATX cases and accompanying motherboards that fit that requirement. The fact that many SFF manufacturers include those features in an assembly-required package indicates to me that they're targetting a gamer market, which is why I asked for a comparison to a popular gaming chassis.

Re:Is SFF worth it?

[mixmasta]

Sure, gaming is part of their market. Although, not all gamers move the computer either. The sff is simply a step in the middle between the tiny limited computer and a big accessible refrigerator sized case. It's just another option.

I've worked with all of the above and like the sff for it's combination of power and size. From the sound of the article, it looks like they have dealt with the heat issues this time around.

I personally like the computer on the desk because I hate crawling under the it showin my butt crack like in the old days of computers... I'm getting too old for that.

This thing rocks... flash card reader, usb2, firewire ports where I can reach 'em without bending, and a kickass 64 bit processor. I wish they didn't even include the serial and ps/2, but it doesn't hurt that much.

It's a great time to be alive computing-wise.

Re:Is SFF worth it?

[digitac]

I've been LANing for years, my first LAN box was an overclocked Celeron 300 (running at 450!) in a full tower. It had 12 fans in it and would stay cool in any environment.

Then I got tired of lugging it around. I bought a Lian-Li mid-tower aluminum case and was in heaven. It ran cool with fewer fans and was light!

Then I got tired of lugging it around. I bought a Shuttle SN41G2, dropped an MSI Geforce 4200 in it. It ran like a dream. I didn't over clock it so I didn't have any heat issues (Athlon 2600+).

Then I got tired of lugging it around. I bought a "gaming" laptop. Nice and portable, built in screen.

Then I got tired of the crappy performance. I'm back to running my SN41G2. I upgraded the power supply to the 250w from Shuttle and dropped in a XFX 6800 GT and a pair of 200GB HDs. This is a great combo. It's fast, light, ane easy to lug around.

All that being said, this is the only SFF I've owned, though my friends have had several. I'm not aware of any over heating problems in environments up to around 85 degrees F. That's about the temp that the Penitum based boxes would start slowing themselves down to prevent heat death. My Athlon based system never complains.

I'm not a fan-boy, these aren't right for everyone, everywhere. But for me, for LAN parties, they work great. ::Digitac

Re:Is SFF worth it?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's quiet, it's small, it lets me hack. What else would I want?

Let me turn the question around. Isn't it smarter to not play LAN games? It's a waste of time, it dulls your mind, it costs money, it makes you want to buy expensive graphics cards you'd never normally buy, and apparently it overheats your computer.

LAN gamers, what draws you to those things?

Re:Is SFF worth it?

[swillden]

So SFF buyers, what draws you to these things?

I'm not an SFF buyer yet, but I'm certainly thinking about it. I want to build a media PC to go in my family room, and I need something that will fit in the cabinets there. I have plenty of horizontal space, but only about 14" of vertical space. I could get a mini tower and lay it on its side, but I'd like the DVD-ROM drive to be usable.

So, obviously, SFF is very attractive to me. The Mac mini would be ideal except for its lack of an SPDIF output. I don't care so much about its hard drive limitations, since whatever I buy will have a Gig-E connection back to my server.

My concern about these Shuttle cases is heat. I don't need a lot of performance -- basically all the box is going to do 99% of the time it's in use is decode MPEG-2 or MPEG-4, and display the result over DVI, and the machine's HDD won't be used much (heck, I could probably boot it off of CF), but because it's going to be in an enclosed space, right next to a gas fireplace, I expect that ambient air temperatures could get pretty high. Maybe as much as 100F, unless I install some sort of fan in the cabinet.

Of course, I may be overly concerned. I know my Athlon64 3400+ runs at a cool 87F with the CPU fan completely OFF while decoding MPEG-2 (that's with ~35% CPU utilization at a PowerNow-downclocked 1GHz). That's in a 70F room and in a case with no fans other than the PSU fan. So as long as I can keep the hard drive (if any) cool, there really shouldn't be any issue.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Re:Is SFF worth it?

[Simulant]

Just a comment about the Lanboy...

I don't understand what's so great about this case. I bought one because of the fawning reviews, about a year and a half ago. Here's what I don't like about it:

- The annoying, swinging front door. I finally ripped it off in frustsration. A sliding door would have been better.

- The punched out, pci card mounting points with the silly plastic cover. If you are in and out of your PC as often as I am, you end up tossing this too, leaving a gaping hole in the back.

- The Rails. I'm with the other guy who said "what's wrong with a phillips?"

- construction feels a bit cheap over all, and not because it's light. The plexiglass windows is cheaply riveted on and there are gaps between the window and the case. Any manufacturing shortcuts (ie punched out pci card mounts) available, appear to have been taken.

Over all I'm much happier with the 30 dollar, no-name, tin mini tower I picked up while bargain shopping. It's only slightly heavier when empty.

Re:Is SFF worth it?

[marsu_k]

I don't do LAN parties, but own a SN41G2v2 myself. The reasons for buying it were fairly simple: my old box sounded like a lawnmover, I had to upgrade the motherboard anyway, and I liked the ability to have my computer on my desk so it'd be easier to change CDs/DVDs/USB devices. Sure you could have a full tower on your desk, but asthetics are important to me as well. So far I've been quite satisfied.

However, despite of the SilentX power supply that comes with the v2 model, it could be quieter. Once the guarantee runs out I'll change the ICE fan to something less noisy. But I've yet to experience any heat issues, the processor temperature on average is 42 C, and it never gets above 45 C.

Re:Is SFF worth it?

[slaida1]

It had 12 fans in it and would stay cool in any environment.

I'm not a fan-boy ...

I'd say you are. xD

Re:Is SFF worth it?

[UserChrisCanter4]

First off, these things aren't quiet. Read the posts.

If you're into hacking, I'd assume you'd want something without a prorietary mobo and PSU design. See, you can get any kind of small microATX case and a matching mobo if all you're interested in is a small computer with reasonable power. The SFF design, though, ties you into the mobo that's already installed and the PSU that's already installed. If either dies, you get to pay Shuttle's gouge prices. With a microATX design, you can buy a mobo and PSU from more than ten different vendors.

Don't get me wrong here; I'm not some teenaged fan boy who thinks that gaming is the only use for computers and that everyone should have a GeForce 9000. As I mentioned in another post, I came at it from the gaming angle because that's obviously who Shuttle is targetting. When you add Gigabit Ethernet, a bleeding-edge expansion slot designed for high-end video cards, and SPDIF audio output, it's pretty obvious that you're gunning for a gaming crowd. Anyone who just wants a small case has many more options than these, and most of those options make a lot more sense.

Re:Is SFF worth it?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been using Shuttles for LANing since the SV25 and I've never had an overheating issue once.

One of the prime attractors is the size. My SN45G is not much bigger than a shoebox and fits right into my suitcase with all my other equipement except the LCD monitor. At home or at the party it takes very little room on my desk, which is not very big.

And it is relatively quiet, you don't need to run the fan that high, a little extra heat is not going to kill your machine.

Re:Is SFF worth it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not everyone likes reaching under their desk every time they want to insert a CD or crawling under it to connect a peripheral.

Re:Is SFF worth it?

[Kehvarl]

I'm not an SFF buyer yet, but I'm certainly thinking about it. I want to build a media PC to go in my family room, and I need something that will fit in the cabinets there. I have plenty of horizontal space, but only about 14" of vertical space. I could get a mini tower and lay it on its side, but I'd like the DVD-ROM drive to be usable.

My suggestion would be something like These . ATX form-factor Desktop style cases. All the dimension benefits of a tower on its side, with all the drive bays oriented the right way up.

Re:Is SFF worth it?

[fitten]

I own two Shuttle SN41G2 (Athlon XP SFF). Originally, I bought one for a stereo system component but it proved unwieldy in my apartment because I didn't want to run wires and 802.11b was the only wireless available and it was too slow for my needs.

Eventually, I bought another as my main machine and pulled that one out and made it into a regular type machine.

Now, I'm married and my wife and I each use one for LAN parties. They aren't our main machines anymore, but we use them every week to go to friends' houses to play in groups.

My main SFF once had a GeForce 4 Ti 4600, a DVD/ROM, and two HDD in it and it ran off of the 200W PSU with no problems. Eventually, I built a server and took one of the HDD out.

Over the last two years or so, I've upgraded it first to a 9800Pro then downgraded to a 9600XT when I built a new machine and took the 9800 for the new machine.

Each of the SFF has 1G memory in them. Well... here is the
list of stuff I have (names Grinder and Speedy)

Anyway, the Shuttles provide me with the following:

- Good CPU support (can put the CPU I want in it)
- Upgradability through AGP/PCI slots (primarily to upgrade to newer/better graphics cards)
- Upgradability for HDD/CD/DVD
- Upgradability for memory (has two DIMM slots)
- Small enough to be portable, I have Shuttle made bags to carry them around in.
- Wide support for other hardware... has all the ports normally found on big boxes - USB, serial, etc.
- Fairly lightweight - about as heavy as the heaviest desktop replacement laptops - my wife can carry hers around by herself with no problems though with the bag.
- Pretty small - when I was using them as my main machines, I could put them on top of my desk and still have plenty of room to work
- No (or almost no) performance penalties for going with a more "exotic" form factor. These things perform just as well as larger boxes with the same CPU/memory/graphics

Re:Is SFF worth it?

[swillden]

My suggestion would be something like These . ATX form-factor Desktop style cases. All the dimension benefits of a tower on its side, with all the drive bays oriented the right way up.

Thanks. Yeah, I looked at some of those. For better or for worse, I just bought this. We'll see how it works out.

Mac mini?

[ebingo]

What does the mac mini comment do here? It may be the first computer to be that small, but it's in no way an original idea. Why do people think that every product Apple makes has to be the reference?

Re:Mac mini?

[ocelotbob]

It's not even the first that small and to answer your question, some mac users feel the psychological need to justify their overpriced products by comparing products whenever possible. It's like a three year old that goes "look at me, look at me" when the older folk are talking amongst themselves.

Re:Mac mini?

[Barlo_Mung_42]

"It may be the first computer to be that small, but it's in no way an original idea."

The mini mac is also in no way the first to be that small.

Re:Mac mini?

[Anonymous Coward]

ocelotbob said:

It's not even the first that small and to answer your question, some mac users feel the psychological need to justify their overpriced products by comparing products whenever possible. It's like a three year old that goes "look at me, look at me" when the older folk are talking amongst themselves.

Response:

Apple's overpriced products??? Please go to http://store.apple.com and verify your statement. In example, iPod Shuffle ($99) and Mac Mini ($499). I guess you may be one of those older folks that is so senile by now that you complain about everything even though you are WRONG!!!

Re:Mac mini?

[16K Ram Pack]

I think they make some really good stuff, but this Mac fanaticism drives me around the bend. Sometimes, people genuinely know what they are talking about, and have good reasons for loving the Mac, and I respect that.

The problems for Macs is that most people don't have them at work. In all the places I've worked, the only time I've seen a Mac is in the design department. Yeah, bring on the examples of where they are used in your small company. Trust me, it's not the norm.

Whilst this pervades, people won't want to have a Mac. I spoke to a friend recently, and as they use their PC for basically email, internet and office, that they could go look at a Mac. But, they want a machine like their office one - they don't want to switch when they get home. If something goes wrong with their home machine, or need advice on software/games/whatever, they often know the tech at work, who probably maintains Windows or Linux.

If anything, Linux will go past, because people will find their desktops getting switched and go with it in the home. It's also a zero or small hardware switch cost, they can run dual-boot for a while.

Re:Mac mini?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well... it's not overpriced for an Apple product anyway...

I guess you may be one of those younger folks who think they know everything there is to know even though you haven't had the experience to know better yet.

Re:Mac mini?

[Anonymous Coward]

My teenager may dispute that I am one of those younger folks but I will accept the compliment.

And I never claimed to know everything, however, I do know that there is a lot of people out there that either know nothing of Apple or their opinions are based on information that is at least 8 years old. It is time to do some reading again and find out why operating systems like Linux and Mac OS X are far superior.

Now before anyone says "He's just another Mac biggot", I want to state that I also have PC's. It is just that I would rather use an operating system that doesn't have to be reinstalled every six months, hardware that is not out of date every six weeks, and an operating system that is not the target of hackers or virii every six minutes. Okay, I may be overstating but I think most people will get my point.

Re:Mac mini?

[ocelotbob]

Y'know, if you set up your computer right, you don't need to reinstall every 6 months. Yes, I know this means that you can't download every 2 bit application that comes down the pip, but it's a small consolation. I use windows, Linux, freebsd, and mac os x on a regular basis, and OS X is inferior in a lot of ways without expending more effort to make it decent than is needed with either Linux or Windows.

Re:Mac mini?

[ocelotbob]

The ipod shuffle is one of the few products that apple offers that is decently priced. The Mac Mini is not that great of a bargain for the money. I'd much rather spend my $500 to get a small x86 machine which is faster and more compatible with off the shelf software. A few hundred dollars extra would get me an Athlon64 system that could go toe to toe with the expensive and gaudy G5 towers. Yes, apple has a few products that are price competitive, but by and large, their products are just as overpriced as they've always been.

Re:Mac mini?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have no issues with Linux or FreeBSD (other than for the average user, they just don't get it). As for setting up windows right...come on...it leaks more than the Titanic. Just try to run your windows instance for 90 days without a reboot (I think I rebooted my Powermac in 2001). 2 bit apps? That pretty much covers anything that Microsoft creates...at least until the 5th Service Pack.

In other news

[vagabond_gr]

Oxford announced the addition of the word "macmini" to their dictionary which appears to be a unit to measure size and coolness at the same time. Typical examples of its usage are:

- Cool, my new Mac Mini is exactly one macmini
- Duh, my iPod is less than half a macmini
- Who the hell would buy a 10 macminis Shuttle XPC SN25P
- Add a full macmini to your p****, 100% safe!

Re:In other news

[MikeBabcock]

To have more macmini should be to have a better coolness factor at a smaller size.

To have achieved one or more macmini should be the goal.

Otherwise, it is a negative term. That is, more macmini is bad, less is better.

Sex is good because more is better.
Chocolate is good because more is better.
Macmini is bad because more is worse?

The word macmini is a fraction of a macmini.

Re:In other news

[Kehvarl]

The confusion arises because macmini can be a measurement of coolness or of size, and which usage intended is not made clear by context.

Sudhian (not \,'ed) Review

[TheBashar]

You can find Sudhian's thorough review of the SN25P at the following link: http://www.sudhian.com.nyud.net:8090/showdocs.cfm? aid=653

For those of you looking for dimensions, the review lists them as: 325mm x 210mm x 220mm. The article also shows a picture of it next to the smaller original G series case.

Because PCI Express is a superior technology

[Sycraft-fu]

I noticed your later post clarifing your confusiong PCI-X and Express.

At any rate, there are a number problems with PCI-X:

1) It's a parallel protocol. That means that all the traces for it need to be the same length to make it work properly. Makes motherboard design tricky.

2) The connectors are HUGE. You have to make a quite physically large card to accomadate that, even if the electronics don't justify it. ESpically a problem in small cases.

3) The electronics necessary to implement it are more expensive than PCIe.

4) There's no real expansion path to it. There isn't any plans for how ot scale it in speed that wouldn't require a reworking and probably add more complexity.

PCIe is real nice because in it's slowest implementation, 1x, it is still fast (about the same speed as PCI-66) but takes a very small slot with very few traces. Nice and cheap to implement, and easy to stick in small cases. However it scales real easily, you can whack on more lanes to a slot, and you can have multiple slots with lots of lanes. So on a low end board with integrated graphics you can have a couple 1x slots, on a workstation barod a 16x, a 14 and a number of 1xs and on a highernd server or visualtion board, multiple 16xs.

Also since you can have more than one 16x slot, unlike with AGP which is single slot only, you can have multiple high power grapihcs accelerators in a system that supports it.

Like with Serial ATA, it is a technology that's needed to keep scaling well and to simplify things. Yes, right now there's really no performance reason to go SATA over PATA, however there will be soon, and SATA should keep scaling. Plus the smaller, simpler connectors are a real boon in many applications.

Also PCIe is compatible with PCI in the fact taht you can have PCI slots on a PCIe motherboard without any problems. So you get a PCIe board and you can still use your old cards, then you slowly replace them as technology progresses, and eventually ouy just don't need it anymore.

Re:Because PCI Express is a superior technology

[Ford Prefect]

2) The connectors are HUGE. You have to make a quite physically large card to accomadate that, even if the electronics don't justify it. ESpically a problem in small cases.

In case people haven't seen a conventional PCI-Express connector, I can tell you they're tiny!

My new PC has them, and I wasn't sure what they were at first. The PCIe-16x connector thingy for the graphics card is a sensible length (about the size of an old AGP slot, I'd say) but the 1x connectors are about 3cm long. I don't know what size PCIe-1x cards are going to be, but they could potentially be far shorter than a typical PCI card of today...

Re:Because PCI Express is a superior technology

[Anonymous Coward]

Your parent is talking about PCI-X, not PCI-E. PCI-X connectors ARE huge.

Re:Mac Mini will outsell that

[DreadCthulhu]

Actually, Shuttle also has complete systems available as well as just the barebone boxes.

Example 2:

[Oculus Habent]

But, the Mac mini doesn't come with a mouse![!!] So, your USB mouse has infinitely more buttons than the Mac mini's mouse. :)

Re:Example 2:

[toddestan]

But, the Mac mini doesn't come with a mouse![!!] So, your USB mouse has infinitely more buttons than the Mac mini's mouse. :)

But there is a single button (power button) on the back of the Mac Mini! So this is a valid measurement. Just like my car payment is 1/2 a Mac Mini.

Re:Example 2:

[TwistedSquare]

Heh... my whole car is worth a bit under 2 mac minis... :-)

Re:Example 2:

[Kehvarl]

your USB mouse has infinitely more buttons than the Mac mini's mouse.

The phrase "infinitely more" indicates an additive quality, and would be innacurate. A better way to put it would probably be "infinitely times as many".

Sorry about the pedantry. feel free to throw things my way, especially cash or mac minis. keep your free ipods though.

Re:Example 2:

[jackspenn]

feel free to throw things my way, especially cash or mac minis. keep your free ipods though.

Dude, you can always ebay the ipods, as long as they aren't to damaged from being thrown around.

Re:Example 2:

[Anonymous Coward]

It's been a while since college, but I thought that division by zero resulted in an indifined value, rather than infinity.

Re:Example 2:

[harrkev]

My car is worth less than 1/3 Mac Mini, you insensitive clod.

nForce 4 PCI issues for DAW???

[Anonymous Coward]

I came across a post on the Nuendo forums:

http://forum.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=545 6#5456

If you read that thread, you will see that after running some benchmarks, the nForce 4 apparently seems to have bandwidth issues with the PCI bus. The speculation at this point seems to point out that the PCI-E bus may be out of spec and is "hogging" the bandwidth (having been tweaked by nVidia). I have no idea what could be causing the issues, especially since they were nonexistent on the nForce 3 chipset (w/ AGP). So if you are interested in a low-latency DAW that uses a PCI audio interface, it may be wise to avoid the nForce 4 chipset for the time being.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Guess I won't be using this for a PVR?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are there any tv capture cards that could even be plugged into this?

Re:Guess I won't be using this for a PVR?

[Mycroft_VIII]

Sorta, the All-In-Wonder line from ATI is moving to pci-e as the base cards do.
This is a bit sub-optimal as AIW cards 'honor' macro-vision crap (if the card detect macrovision it proceded to turn the resultant video into what looks like a scramble cable signal) and there is no fix for modern AIW's and drivers on this issue yet. There is a hack for 7k series and one 8k series radeon based AIW's that the creators are working on updating IIRC to more modern cards.

Mycroft

Re:Phillips Screwdriver

[Anonymous Coward]

It is not like a Phillips Screwdriver is some exotic tool that is hard to come by.

are you referring to METRIC or IMPERIAL ?

Quiet Small

[yem]

Yep. I went Shuttle with my latest upgrade and ended up with an SN85G4/Sempron3100/6800GT. The size is nice for LAN use, but it's terribly noisy. There is no way I'd use it for anything but gaming. Even then I only use it with headphones that muffle the constant fan noise *ffffffffsssssssshhhhhhhhh*.

If I ever buy another desktop PC, it'll be a normal size case with a couple of 120mm (if not larger) fans. I finally see what those quiet PC guys were on about. Quiet > Small. Unless you're deaf.

Why the continual comparisons to the Mac Mini?

[dr.badass]

At several times the size of a Mac Mini, the SN25P is an entirely different breed of small form factor system;

If it's entirely different, then why even mention the Mac Mini? They don't compare on size, market, utility, platform, expandability, speed, heat, appearance, and certainly not on price.

Form Factor...

[Anonymous Coward]

What about the motherboard? Is it standard micro-ATX? My last Shuttle system had a proprietary board which died, making it basically a throwaway system.

Re:Mac Mini will outsell that

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the issue is that a lot of people tend to look at competing computer products from the monopolist's perspective. They seem to think that for a particular product to be successful, it must eliminate any and all competition. Such folks can't seem to appreciate a flourishing technological ecosystem and are usually the ones that instigate retarded Mac/PC, Gnome/KDE, etc. flamewars.

relative size, please?

[whovian]

TechReport's and Sudhian's reviews don't give me a sense for just how "big" the is. (yeah, I could measure out the dimensions but still...) In contrast, Apple's web page shows its Mini 1) held in a person's hands or 2) holding a CD, so I have the impression that that is pretty small. I think it would not hurt Shuttle to provide this small convenience.

Re:relative size, please?

[Donny Smith]

Well I can tell you small is cute but once you want to upgrade, those little boxes like Mini are dead end.
I have an older ("cute") Athlon/Shuttle box - it looks great but it can hold only one 3.5" disk. I mean - that sucks but it's great for people who like cute tiny boxes that look nice.

I like the way it looks, so I think I'll buy another Shuttle (it's been quite stable too) but this time I'll go for this new sucker which has space for more than one HDDs:
http://techreport.com/reviews/2005q1/shuttl e-sn25p /index.x?pg=3

Re:relative size, please?

[The Angry Mick]

Give or take a few centimeters here and there, it'll be roughly the size of 2 1/2 stacked Mac-Minis.

Here's a good barebone for y'all

[melted]

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?desc ription=56-110-030&DEPA=0

Asus Terminator C3 - $115. VIA C3 processor, running at 800MHz. Comes with processor, floppy and CD-ROM. Put in your old PC2100 RAM, a couple SATA hard drives, install your favorite Linux/*BSD distro, and you have a perfect home server. It even has a PCI slot, FireWire, USB2 and TV OUT.

But how well does it run Linux?

[AZPolarBear]

The reviewer could have at least booted the latest Linux kernel determine how much of the system is or isn't supported.

I found most of the review to be a waste of time because of this oversight.

So what?

[billsoxs]

And one of the highlights of the article was

Shuttle also hides the SN25P's 5.25" drive bay behind a stealthy door, keeping beige optical drives from scarring the system's otherwise attractive face. The spring-loaded door opens and closes automatically under the force of the optical drive tray.

Like this is a huge deal? Other highlights includes multiple slams of the Intel CPU. I could go on but so what? With the exception of the 64 bit CPU this seems to be a 4 year old computer. I mean look at the bus speeds Bus speeds CPU: 200-250MHz in 1MHz increments DRAM: 100, 133, 166, 200MHz

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Like this is a huge deal? Other highlights includes multiple slams of the Intel CPU. I could go on but so what? With the exception of the 64 bit CPU this seems to be a 4 year old computer. I mean look at the bus speeds Bus speeds CPU: 200-250MHz in 1MHz increments DRAM: 100, 133, 166, 200MHz

I've been trying to work out if you're trolling or just a fucking idiot. I'm leaning towards option B at the moment.

You mention the review slams the Intel CPU. It doesn't have an Intel CPU - it's an Athlon 64 system.

And then you go on to claim that the FSB and memory speeds are like a 4 year old computer. Right. I take it you haven't heard of DDR or Quad pumped busses then? So what made you think you were qualified to comment on a hardware review?

Buy a Mac Mini. It will be perfect for you.

Re:So what?

[billsoxs]

You mention the review slams the Intel CPU. It doesn't have an Intel CPU - it's an Athlon 64 system

Read the flip'n article. They keep slamming the Intel chip in other systems made by the same company. - and yes, the bus speeds are not that good.

Re:Quiet Small

[Hast]

I have a similar setup but with the newer 95G Shuttle and a 660GT. It is noisy, that is true. However the noisy part of it is the 6600GT fan since that was apparently never designed to be quiet.

If you swap the gfx fan for something quiet then it would be quite quiet. OTOH I guess since the GFX is so loud I don't really notice any other sounds in the box. ;-)

Yer sig..

[3.5 stripes]

You know that the president's house has the address whitehouse.gov, right?

Re:Yer sig..

[anagama]

whitehouse.com used to be an excellent parody site of whitehouse.gov.

PCI Express IS backwards compatible

[olePigeon (Wik)]

According to PCI-SIG, the guys that created PCI, PCI Express is not only software backwards compatible, but also hardware backwards compatible with PCI and PCI-X using the appropropriate hardware bridge.

Re:PCI Express IS backwards compatible

[atrus]

Well, all hardware compatible if you add a piece of hardware to translate :). But, you can't cram a PCI-33MHz card into a PCI-e slot. Whereas you could put one in a PCI-X slot.

Bristles?-On top of Old Pokey.

[Anonymous Coward]

""I would have loved to buy that powerful Athlon 64, but the system bristled with ports, unlike the smooth surface of my legacy free Mac mini.""

But, but. I thought geeks liked plenty of ports to plug things into?

On a related note, 939 mATX mobos for SFF use

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone tried the Radeon IGP 200-based MSI RS480M2-IL mATX socket 939 board?

I'm thinking of using this in a HTPC/PVR system and the only downsides that I can see are the lack of onboard frame buffer memory for the GPU, lack of digital audio output, and terrible USB performance from the southbridge (?).

Are there any similar mobos coming from anyone else soon, perhaps without the same pitfalls? I'd certainly be open to looking at one of those as well.

"New" [shlong] factor?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I have a mini tower."

Viagra isn't just for old people.

"This is significantly smaller."

Guess we know who wins this war?

LCD flicker?

[karstux]

"I can't use flat panel monitors anyway because I have a sight defect that means I get very bad headaches at anything less than ~75Hz refresh rates"

I couldn't help but wonder at that... why would that preclude you from using LCD panels? I thought LCD technology is flicker-free by design, since pixels aren't constantly re-lit (as in a CRT) but only switched when their color actually changes.

I have a CRT and an LCD side-by-side in front of me, and while I can perceive a slight flicker in the CRT even at 85Hz, I cannot do so in the LCD at all.

REVIEW SUCKS

[Anonymous Coward]

These aspect and rehashed published attribute reviews are CRAP.

'Duh, I think it has enough fans but I don't know'

useless! This is no more informative than telling me the optical drive makes a lot of noise so it must be fast.

'Duh, it looks like you can't use the PCIex1 slot but that shouldn't matter'

useless! The reviewer is either rationalizing a design flaw away or is spatial cognition challanged.

'It's got a flumox8K sound system which is great except the penile widget won't operate at full tumescence'

useless! WTF is a flumox8K? The reviewer thinks I should know!

Do these idiots get PAID for their uninformative product hyping reviews?

and x1 peripherals

[Anonymous Coward]

You can only attach one peripheral? What a gip!

wow

[aminorex]

> up to 2GB of DDR400 memory and Socket 939 Athlon 64 processors

Wow. Now *that* is a lot of processors.

Beware of the network

[gr8_phk]

I have shuttle SN95G5 - nforce3 socket 939. The LAN controller on my box has some bad VPD data inside, and Linux performance was suffering in a bad way (the system would freeze every second or so) Several people have reported similar problems on the net, but Shuttle has refused to fix the problem because it's not a problem for Windows (you can find error informatio in Win, but I guess it's not a performance problem). ASus has a board with a similar problem, and their patch has done wonders for my Shuttle. I just wish Shuttle supported their products (and Linux) a little better. That aside, I really really like my SN95G5 now that Asus has provided a fix for it ;-)

Yes, yes... but:

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

Does it run MacOS X? No? Next...

How loud will this be?

[katorga]

I count 3 fans on the rear chassis, 2 fans on the CPU cooling system, and a final fan on the graphics card.

My experience with SFF chassis is that they tend to accentuate noise levels since they typically sit on the desk near the user, and with that many fans in the chassis, this puppy should sound like a freight train after a few months of use.

Several times the size of a Mac Mini?

[Anonymous Coward]

Shuttle XPC SN25P (LxWxH): 320mm x 210mm x 220mm = 14784000 mm^3

Mac Mini (LxWxH): 165mm x 165mm x 51mm = 1388475 mm^3

That's an order of magnitude increase in volume. Comparing it to a true SFF like the mini is just plain dumb.

Re:Several times the size of a Mac Mini?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's an order of magnitude increase in volume. Comparing it to a true SFF like the mini is just plain dumb.

Considering SFF was defined BEFORE the Mac Mini ever was released... I think it's quite Maclot of you to attempt to redefine something to your benefit when just entering the competition. Shuttle SFF machines have been around for years (I know, I own two of them, have had them for several years now, and there were many models that existed before I bought one.)

Besides... I think the Mac Mini is more MFF (Micro/Mini Form Factor) rather than SFF. I like the idea and implementation of the Mac Mini, but it is typical Mac arrogance for you to decide to redefine SFF which has been in use and accepted long before the Mac Mini project was even started.

Re:Mac Mini will outsell that

[jbarket]

Yes, but the component they manufacturer is the barebones XPC itself (and monitors and optical drives, but that aside). The only real reason Shuttle has for pushing complete XPC systems themselves is the fact that outside of Voodoo PC and Alienware selling their top of the line, few OEMs are making real use of their components.

It doesn't change the fact that the SN25P is a barebones system and nothing more.