Via Now Shipping Dual-Processor Mini-ITX Board

An anonymous reader writes "Via is now shipping its first dual-processor mini-ITX board. The DP-310 features two 1GHz processors, gigabit Ethernet, support for SATA drives, and a media-processing graphics chipset. It targets high-density applications -- according to Via, a 42-U rack with 168 processors would draw about 2.5 kilowatts, or about as much power as two hair dryers." This also looks like the basis for a nice car computer. Also on the small-computing front, an anonymous reader submits "General Micro, meanwhile, last week released what it calls the world's fastest mini-ITX board, powered by a Pentium M clocked up to 2.3GHz. "

Comments

Car computer?

[temojen]

Sounds like an excellent-performing midrange desktop replacement to me. Only trick would be marketing it to consumers & businesses who've been indoctrinated in the MHz cult. Two CPUs should give excellent responsiveness.

Re:Car computer?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. The challenge is overcoming the WinTel FUD and actually getting it to the mass-market.

Re:Car computer?

[browngb]

I disagree. I'm recently moved my counter strike source server off of my desktop onto a dual pentium III 1 GHz dedicated server and I can tell a difference in the performance. 2x1GHz does not equal 2 GHz, and faster processors do mean faster performance.

Re:Car computer?

[mabinogi]

what the hell does that have to do with anything?

The grandparent was talking about using it as a dektop machine, not a server.
A 1GHz machine (even single processor) is perfectly suitable for most desktop tasks - in fact, a machine _half_ that speed would still be fine.
He also said that having two processors would make it nice and responsive.
Which it would.

At no point did he claim it would run as fast as a 2Ghz single processor machine, you made that bit up yourself.

Re:Car computer?

[advocate_one]

well I would blame whoever wrote the counterstrike server software for not making it SMP aware...

Re:Car computer?

[UserChrisCanter4]

Not quite...

Benchmark review of a single 933 Via processor

Granted, this is the C3, which is slightly inferior to the Eden-N being used here. Can you see the second processor in the arithmetic benchmarks, the one running about equally? That's a 333mhz PII. Even being generous and saying this newer series chip has significantly sped up, we're still talking performance equal to maybe a dual 500 Mhz PIII.

Useable? Yes. Acceptable for generic web browsing and word processing? Maybe. An excellent-performing midrange desktop replacement? No way. The Mhz myth is definitely in effect here, just not like you might initially think. These things are fine and dandy as a generic file server where speed is not a supreme priority, and they work fine as a router/gateway or simple firewall, but please don't try to use them for much else.

Re:Car computer?

[Mekabyte]

The problem is, it works in reverse when you're talking about Via. Via 1GHz CPUs perform at about the equivalent of 600MHz P-IIIs. On top of that, dual CPUs are only good for multitasking or multithreaded applications (not many), so most of the time, you'll only be getting 600MHz performance... hardly midrange.

Re:Car computer?

[bani]

midrange desktop replacement? uh, no. the via is a *really* slow cpu. two of them wont help responsiveness that much. last time i tested an eden cpu, it performed roughly the same as a p2 at half the mhz. (eg 800mhz eden performed roughly the same as a p2/400).

the via cpu target is set-top boxes and embedded applications. it makes a poor desktop cpu, where your data processing requirements are considerably higher than a PVR or car stereo system.

even via knows better, they aren't targeting the desktop with this because they know it isn't right.

for a midrange desktop you'll get more out of a single pentium-m...

Re:Car computer?

[Anonymous Coward]

My 5x86 133 w/16MB RAM worked fine for word processing and basic browsing (since it only had to keep up with a 14.4 modem). Whizzy graphics and OS bloat are the only things that required me to upgrade the MD/CPU/RAM.

Remember when 200MHz was fast? It is absolutely just as fast as ever, just not relatively as fast.

My P233MMX works better than just fine for internet browsing and word processing. Not marginal at all. There are only two limitations. 1. I can't run much commercial software published this century, mostly because of OS bloat and graphics bloat. 2. And the MB is very stupid and won't take more than 64BM RAM.

Anyone who thinks that you need >300MHz for basic word processing and internet browsing is just desensitized by bloat inflation.

Re:Car computer?

[bani]

making the CS server smp aware is hard, there's not much that can be parallelized. and what can be parallelized wont gain much from smp.

Re:Car computer?

[the_2nd_coming]

ahhhhhh!!! shut up shut up shut up!!!!!

it annoys me so much when people say that!!!!!!

SYSTEM PERFORMANCE will see an improvement!!!

Re:Car computer?

[Mancat]

It's actually better that way. You give the server a whole processor of its own, and leave the other processor to handle I/O. This makes map loading insanely quick, and keeps the HLDS from madly grubbing the other CPU's cycles, as it so loves to do.

Re:Car computer?

[Anonymous Coward]

yes it will help responsiveness. you have 1 processor working away hard, the other one is still free to be handling other stuff. you seem to have never used a dual processor workstation before. some tasks may take longer, but with the other proc to take the load it doesn't matter.

Re:Car computer?

[JPriest]

Not to mention that for most applications the overhead of forking to 2 processors is not worth the extra power. For most stuff a dual 1GHz rig would perform slower than a single 1.2Ghz processor. The 1Ghz + 1Ghz = 2GHz thing is just marketing math.

Re:Car computer?

[browngb]

The summary mentions a 42U rack, which sounds like a server rack to me.

Re:Car computer?

[UserChrisCanter4]

Yeah, I remember the good ol' days, with their 300 baud modems and walking backwards uphill both ways in the snow.

Now I have a 6000kbps/400kbps broadband link to my home. What you call OS Bloat and graphics bloat I call useability increases.

I run Firefox, which allows for nice, handy tabbed browsing. It might be useable on a 233mhz computer, provided there was enough RAM, but I wouldn't push it.

While doing that, I'll have an IM Client open that allows for connection to all major IM networks.

I'm also going to have Thunderbird open, which allows for easy management of my RSS feeds along with email.

MP3 player will of course be running in the background, because I like to listen to music while I browse. That alone would tax the hell out of your 133mhz 5x86.

If I see a /. story about an innovative new software program, or a cool liveCD, I can fire up a bit torrent client and grab it without putting as much of a strain on the server.

I didn't say you NEED a faster machine for web browsing, but I wouldn't want to do it on something slower than about 500Mhz nowadays. The minute that I have to start shutting down applications so that I can do other work, I'm just going to start looking into an inexpensive upgrade route. If my computer is seriously inhibiting my ability to do what I want to do, then no amount of bitching about bloat is going to fix that problem. While bloat is there, advances have taken place in software since 1997 (the year of the P233), and you shouldn't just discount them because your system's too slow to use those applications.

Re:Car computer?

[sydres]

considering the performance of one these chips is about the same as 300mhz pentium mmx this is great

Re:Car computer?

[Jonavin]

That's only if you run one app a a time. My Dual 1.6GHz Opteron system at home seems to be way more responsive than my 3.4 Ghz P4 at work doing similar things.

It just depends on what you use it for. For my purpose, 2 is better than 1, even if they are 2 slower CPUs.

Before you complain about oranges and apples, I chose my example also to highlight the fact that MHz ratings alone are meaningless. So on this point I do agree with you. But I'm pretty sure a stand alone P4 3.4 will kick a single 242 any day.

Re:Car computer?

[DataPath]

The is the second mini-itx board that VIA has released based on the CN400 chipset. This chipset is supposed to have SIGNIFICANTLY improved performance, largely stemming from greatly improved memory bandwidth.

Re:Car computer?

[Mekabyte]

This is true... this is why I myself run two processors... however, two processors aren't going to do much for 600MHz performance in today's marketplace, which was my point.

Re:Car computer?

[bani]

actually ive several numerous multiprocessor workstations. dual celeron (BP6), two dual athlons (S2460s), and now dual opteron (S2875)

yes it means you can do multiple tasks simultaneously. but on a via eden, each task is _really_ slow. so you can do a bunch very slow tasks simultaneously. woo fucking hoo.

yes, it's better than a single cpu eden, but the responsiveness of a dual cpu eden will still be much, much slower than a single processor athlon or pentium-m.

Re:Car computer?

[bani]

i/o doesn't work that way. at least if you use DMA like any modern system does. maybe it would help if you had a dual 486 running PIO or something :)

Re:Car computer?

[bani]

try more like, a 1ghz via is equivalent to a 500mhz p2.

a p3 is a (relatively) fast chip, a p2 is not.

i definitely wouldnt use a dual 1ghz eden for a desktop workstation. i'd use a single cpu pentium-m -- much faster and more responsive and better performance.

Re:Car computer?

[mnmn]

You know what, this can be the cell-processor equivalent of the playstation 3. Windows Shorttail (tm) 2008, requires 4 CPUs at least.. recommended 16 CPUs. At least one is dedicated to AA fonts, another to graphic effects and GUI responsiveness, another to the kernel and driver routines, another to networking, another to virtual machines like java, one to all software-based hardware like softmodems... the rest distributed among processes.

And when games are run, different parts, like z-buffer, AA, networking code, audio, physics are given to different CPUs.

Now imagine 16x Athlon64 FX-55s in miniITX. Liquid cooled.

Re:Car computer?

[vranash]

I actually have a Via Nehemiah 1ghz chip in the system I'm typing from, and I can tell you for a fact it's much faster than a 300 mhz Pentium. That's not to say it doesn't have issues (small cache, crappy onboard video (basically 2d only ATM), etc)

Also mozilla lags it like a mofo, taking into consideration the fact that I have no less than 10 tabs open at one time.

However anything less than mozilla/monodevelop, even compiles, and the system is responsive enough to chat and watch a dvd at the same time, usually with a half dozen terminal windows open, and a compile or two going (a compile or two, mozilla, and ogle however is just asking for trouble!)

Anyhow the New Via chips aren't as bad as the old ones, speaking from experience... used to have an 800 mhz Epia, the old core that ID as a Centaur chip Ezra or something, and it was a bit slow if you had a lot of FP/MMX stuff going, but for the integer based ops it was at least as fast as my dads old P3/500 for most of what we were doing (considering the 64k l2 cache.

Re:Car computer?

[superpulpsicle]

I have owned enough via chipsets in my lifetime to know they require extra care to work. All those VIA 4-in-1 drivers are a mess. The performance never got that much better either.

Re:Car computer?

[Anonymous Coward]

MP3 Decoding on a 133Mhz i586 (128MB of RAM and Windows 98) takes approximately 2-5% of the CPU time. I know. I had one, and I played the hell out of MP3s using Winamp 2.x, especially whilst doing 3D modeling. It didn't "tax the hell out of it." MP3 is a very easy format to decode, and despite rendering and manipulating textures, 3D models, and that sort of stuff, my lowly computer managed to not have decoding errors or any sort of skipping. Now, if I took Winamp 5 and stuck it on that machine, I'd probably peg my memory, the disk would swap like it was dying, and the CPU usage would be 10%+

What the hell changed? Is it more usable? Does it do it's job better (omg my Wi|\|4MP5 15 73h w1n)? NO. NO. NO.

In addition... What exactly is different in the Windows OS that would give "useability increases", and at the same time justify how much memory and disk space it used over it's predecessor? Barring the inclusion of more manufactuer drivers, and that sort of thing, just about 0 has changed between Win98 and WinXP in the usabillity department. Zero. It's the same UI, just cotton-candeized, with maybe a few prorgams on the side. Does that justify the fact that if you have less than 512MB of RAM that you can't read your Email without waiting 3 minutes? NO.

Re:Car computer?

[Tsar Ivan IV]

In fact, a 450 mhz P2 is almost exactly the same speed as a 450 mhz P3. Only appreciable difference is the inclusion of SSE instructions for the P3.
Pentium-M is also basically a low-power version of the P3, which is basically an improved P2, which is basically a cheapened version of the Pentium Pro.

Re:Car computer?

[mikael]

If you can type at 100 cps with a single Pentium 4 processor, just think how fast you'll be able to type with dual processors!

Re:Car computer?

[meatspray]

Hmmm,

I had a PII 400, it could play winamp, while surfing the web, with a copy of outlook, trillian, and word open in Windows 2000. (It did have 512mb of ram)

Windows XP is full of bloat, live OS backups, live OS file protection, background automatic patches, the look and feel service to make your menus pretty, all the drm hooks, dumprep to catch your programs crashing and give you meaning to the madness. I'm not saying all these things aren't usefull, just that they don't directly contribute to the music listening, web browsing, productivity portion of my day and I don't need them to make my pc more workable.

Bloat is nothing new and it's definately not just usability increases. As PCs get faster, deveopers stop worrying about efficency and pay more attention to deadlines. I keep my OS on it's own partition so it has less of a chance of screwing up my data. The OS partition on my windows machine constantly runs out of space, it's 4GB! You might be thinking, so what, you have an 80GB hardrive, but where does it end. When I have a 1TB hard drive, it windows just going to stop deleting anything. They've not gone through significant pains to compress service pack files or archived dlls. (think diskspace or stacker ppl) There's nothing in XP they couldn't be doing in half the space, at four times the speed, it's just not necessary for them to do it that quickly or that efficiently because people keep buying new hardware so they settle for getting it on the shelf faster.

So if I see all this inherant waste, why would I run XP? I have XP purely to keep up with the times. (Since I have to support XP/2003 stations/servers, a little Gaming doesn't hurt either). If I could get away with it, I'd keep linux on everything running ICE-WM. Let the hardware advance to run the lastest 3d game or rendering package. Why should my operating system be more resource intensive than my applications? Isn't it's whole purpose to let me run my apps?

XP does appear to be reasonably stable, and generally causes me less maintenance time per week, but if I wanted to run on a slower machine, there's aboslutely no reason I couldn't drop back just a little and still get everything done as quickly today as I did in '99. (and as quickly if not faster than I can today)

Honestly save playing 3d games, and real time video encoding there's not a lot that a dual 1GHz box can't do. I had a 400MHz celeron laptop that did a bang up job playing DVD's. (though it's battery died at around 100 minutes with all the stress)

As a side note, The breaking point I found for running winamp 2.x (pre directX 8) in the background was 100MHz pentium I. A pentium 100 could handle mp3 and a web browser, the 75 would break up a little-> a lot in most apps. (windows 95, 64mb ram)

Re:Car computer?

[spitefulcrow]

It mentions using a 42U rack full of units with these dual-processor boards in them adding up to 168 CPUs total. Much different from your single box with dual P3s.

Re:Car computer?

[roju]

It's usable on this 233 ;)

Re:Car computer?

[Anonymous Coward]

What the fuck are you talking about?

Re:Car computer?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm going to call bs on your 2-5% statement. I'd say closer to 20% or so. Granted I only had 48 Megs of ram at the time, but it still uses far more than 10% now that I've upgraded to 96Mb. Nowdays I use it for a stripped down music player (no gui) and the performance is kinda lacking.

One thing I'd say is nice is encoding speeds. I can encode a 12 minute song in q5 ogg vorbis in like 1-2 minutes. I remember encoding 3-5 minute mp3 (@256kb) and it taking 20-30 minutes.

Re:Car computer?

[xanadu-xtroot.com]

yes it means you can do multiple tasks simultaneously. but on a via eden, each task is _really_ slow. so you can do a bunch very slow tasks simultaneously. woo fucking hoo.

+5, Informative

Yea, great, the machine can a few more things at once than it used to be able to do. There was noting said about it being done well enough to notice or to validate the added cash involved...

Re:Car computer?

[FunFactor100]

Yeah...the CN400 has great performance...unfortunately the VIA drivers suck and VIA's not being very co-operative with the linux developers. I have a new board with the CN400 but unfortunately I can't make use of it's performance due to the crappy linux drivers.

Re:Car computer?

[sydres]

well I was only basing that on benchmarks that I have read and the fact the design is very primitive.

Re:Car computer?

[Afrosheen]

Gee, this sounds alot like what Amiga was doing over a decade ago. The Fat/Fatter Agnus handled coppers & blitters, Denise handled video, Paula was the sound chip, Gary handled I/O, etc.

See guys, multiprocessor machines are the past AND the future. This time around we're going the route of generic chips (cpu's) rather than special purpose chips. Overall this is a good idea. The other route is one the PC market has taken for years..you have a special video chip here, a sound chip here, etc. It has it's plusses and is an effective method particularly when cost is an issue. However, as CPU power climbs and power consumption and price fall, quad or octa CPU machines become more feasible.

Re:Car computer?

[avidday]

That depends a lot on which 450MHz P3 you are talking about. The 450MHz Coppermine had 256kb on die L2 cache which ran full core speed. The 450MHz Katmai core P3 had 512kb off die L2 cache clocked at half the core speed - identical to the Menocino P2 which preceeded it. In practice the Coppermine was *significantly* faster than the the Katmai or Mendocino at the same clock and FSB speed.

Re:Car computer?

[LordMyren]

i wake up every morning and just want to cry myself back to sleep because my BP6 is dead. that was one of the best machines i have ever owned. this dual channel athlon 2100+ is nothing compared to the godliness my blazing fast dual 650 mhz of celerons was. i still consider going home and stealing the OTHER bp6 back from my parents.

you got it all wrong you see;
the tasks may be slower but the responsiveness is through the roof. dual cpu's is about one thing; responsiveness.

dual cpu or better for life baby
myren

I know this is a nerd site, but...

[Meostro]

a 42-U rack with 168 processors would draw about 2.5 kilowatts, or about as much power as two hair dryers." This also looks like the basis for a nice car computer.

I know this is News for Nerds and all, but isn't that a bit excessive? I don't think my car needs 168 1GHz processors. (or is that 336 processors?) What's it going to do with that much power?

Re:I know this is a nerd site, but...

[Meostro]

a 42-U rack with 168 processors

nevermind...

Re:I know this is a nerd site, but...

[FudRucker]

you could compile Gentoo while doing 75 MPH down the turnpike...

Re:I know this is a nerd site, but...

[spiny]

way to miss the joke ...

Re:I know this is a nerd site, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, and by the time you made the trip from LA to New York, KDE would be just about finished.

Re:I know this is a nerd site, but...

[Billy the Mountain]

How about using the rack as the CPU for running the Darpa Challenge. That plus some good programming and a little luck should allow it to travel autonomously for more than 8 frickin miles, eh?

BTM

Re:I know this is a nerd site, but...

[northcat]

Longhorn!

Re:I know this is a nerd site, but...

[hey!]

What's it going to do with that much power?

Well, IIRC, it will dry your hair. And that of your passenger.

Re:I know this is a nerd site, but...

[danheskett]

Maybe only if you are driving coast to coast, otherwise, you'll never finish before you shut off the vehicle.

Re:I know this is a nerd site, but...

[SpongeBobLinuxPants]

imagine a parking lot full of these...

Re:I know this is a nerd site, but...

[Meostro]

Funny you should mention that...

I'm looking into getting maybe three or four of these mini-ITX systems to do stereo vision processing for a DARPA run. They're easier to work with than usual embedded controlers (since they're 99.9% x86 PC), and they're much cheaper than even the cheapest laptops out there.

These in particular might not be cheap because they're so new, but a Nehemiah 1Ghz is only £95GBP or $171USD (guess they haven't updated their exchange rates), $760.02 for 4 of 'em including shipping anywhere in the lower 48.

Re:I know this is a nerd site, but...

[Meostro]

Well, IIRC, it will dry your hair. And that of your passenger.

Or you could just stick your head out the window and leave the cluster at home, that's what I usually do.

Re:I know this is a nerd site, but...

[mikael]

I know this is News for Nerds and all, but isn't that a bit excessive? I don't think my car needs 168 1GHz processors. (or is that 336 processors?) What's it going to do with that much power?

Be the top contributor to the SETI project?

Solve protein folding research during your morning coffee break?

Run a 1000+ player MMORPG

Hire out your system as a render-farm?

TV?

[saintlupus]

No TV-Out? Dammit.

This would make a nice basis for a Myth machine, otherwise. And hell, I'd probably run a bunch of other apps on it too. If the thing's going to be on all the time anyway, I might as well use it.

--saint

Re:TV?

[enrico_suave]

"No TV-Out? Dammit."

It's got DVI out... I imagine there will be a dongle/converter for svideo/etc

I'm definitely interested from the homebrew PVR perspective how well the new "media chipset" performs and assists with mpeg2 and mpeg4 playback.

unless two processor means two noisy fans =) then forget it! =P

e.

Re:TV?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are converters for VGA to component, probably DVI to component as well. They do a lot better of a job than S-video especially on HD ready sets.

Re:TV?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello, yes. I'd say put a riser card in it and two nice tuner cards. Maybe even a radio tuner.
It sure looks like a yummy board to me, and what is even more important to me, it will be -very- silent, if passively cooled.

Re:TV?

[Anonymous Coward]

No TV-Out? Dammit.

In this day and age you need a TV-Out? My TV has both a VGA and DVI in.. Get with the times, old man.

Re:TV?

[Anonymous Coward]

Note that the processors are designed to need very little fanning.
That's a natural side-effect of low-power.

Re:TV?

[enrico_suave]

" Note that the processors are designed to need very little fanning.
That's a natural side-effect of low-power."

I *have* a VIA EPIA M10k nememiah core "low power" mini-itx mobo already... and it still needs a little fan (although hush makes a fanless case taht basically makes a "big" alumnimum heat sync/fins out of the whole case!)

e.

Re:TV?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck off.

Re:TV?

[spagetti_code]

I built a myth PVR based on an EPIA board. While that machine is awesome (quiet, small, reliable), it was a major mission to get it there.

The M and MII boards have well documented DMA issues There have been many attempts to contact VIA to discuss these, all have been actively ignored (we are pretty sure they are getting the messages).

What concerns me is that the problem has been fixed in windows, but Via wont even talk to linux people about it. That indicates a certain lack of interest in the linuxworld that bodes badly should problems arise with these new mobos. I would be very circumspect about picking up another mobo from them unless I was sure I wouldn't need support.

Just one jilted dudes opinion.

Re:TV?

[leoc]

Linux support is one reason why, despite its shortcomings for use in a PVR compared to hauppauge's products, I'm going with a Plextor M402U as the encoder hardware for my box.

Re:TV?

[Generic Guy]

You can get the new Plextor TV402U (with built-in tuner) which alleviates most of the "problems" with the M402U.

UniChrome Pro onboard GPU...

[Lisandro]

How good are these? I remember reading a lot of lovely things about S3 DeltaChrome series (owned by VIA), but never got to see a videocard sporting that chip.

Re:UniChrome Pro onboard GPU...

[worst_name_ever]

UniChron? It's great. The only problem is that it's also an evil planet-eating robot planet. So watch out for that.

Re:UniChrome Pro onboard GPU...

[MarcQuadra]

They're good if you run their Windoze drivers, but the open-source drivers don't support the hardware video en/decoding, IIRC.

I had an EPIA 800 and couldn't stand how 'fuzzy' the output was on my nice monitor, VIA's mini-ITX products seem to be quite low-quality, but they do get the job done.

If I was going to 'go mini' I'd have to go with something like this, a Pentium-M on an Intel chipset, their stuff sems a lot more 'solid' than VIA's.

Re:UniChrome Pro onboard GPU...

[mparaz]

It's supported by the Unichrome sourceforge project.

Some motherboard chipsets are better-supported than the others. I have a motherboard based on the VIA PM800 chipset, but at the time I tried, I couldn't get it to work with the driver since PM800 support was experimental. While the VESA driver works, I had to install a cheap AGP card since I needed gamma correction to compensate for my (cheap) overbright LCD panel.

I just checked again and someone got the PM800 working. I'll try that when I reinstall my box (soon).

Re:UniChrome Pro onboard GPU...

[drxray]

As for the 3d performance, GTA2 and quake 3 were fully playable. I think it got something like 10 frames per second on ut2004 (small map, minimum detail). This is on a 1ghz Epia under win98 (not my machine, ok).
There was an issue of a third-party lcd monitor driver not supporting the chipset - still works but fancy features like portrait mode don't.
Anyway, OK for a supposedly low-power chip - I say supposedly because the heatsink gets very hot if you use 3d for an hour or so.

Re:UniChrome Pro onboard GPU...

[Anonymous Coward]

Getting VIA boards working with Linux is a pain in the arse. Gentoo works OK, with some fiddling, but that's about it. Forget Fedora/RedHat...

And VIA's online support forums are pretty crap too. When you need help you'll need to look on Google for HOWTOs.

Cool mini-ITX stuff...

[ozziegt]

If you want to see what cool stuff people are doing with mini-ITX, check out http://www.mini-itx.com/. Mini-ITX is a form factor where the board is 6.7"x6.7"

Re:Cool mini-ITX stuff...

[GoodNicsTken]

I had the previous single processor VIA mini ITX boad as a car computer running media engine in my company car. (Ford Escape) It was very cool. I pulled the radio and put a 7" Lillput widescreen touchscreen monitor where the radio used to sit.

I ran 2-MTX amps to the door speakers with a 12" Sub in the back. I had a USB hub that ran the Wifi bridge to sync things up when I pulled into the garage. I also had the Audigy USB processor, and USB GPS receiver. I had 13,000 MP3's at my fingertips, music videos (a sort of MTV on demand), GPS navigation, Outlook contacts, solitare, games, etc. All in 5.1 Surround sound rollin down the street.

The board could barely keep up with a DVD, and couldn't run Daemon tools to mount an image and play the movie from the HD(important because laptop DVD-RW would skip a lot).

Two processors would probably solve that problem. However, for some reason my board just stopped working. Need to figure out what happened. Overall a fun time consuming project that works fairly well. Still some integration that needs to happen, but Media Engine is Open source and actively developed. (Dev team are jerks most of the time though)

Re:Cool mini-ITX stuff...

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe if you weren't running software written in VB running on windows it would have run fine too....

Re:Cool mini-ITX stuff...

[nixfixer]

A few articles back there is talk about a silent PC - slowing fans down with resistors, etc. If you want a true "silent" pc, mini-itx is the only way. Get one of these, add a flash card and you have a *zero* noise computer.

http://www.purplecarrot.co.uk/dvd-pc/ The only problem is they are not as powerful as your average desktop pc. Until now?

Re:Cool mini-ITX stuff...

[cpghost]

Get one of these, add a flash card and you have a *zero* noise computer.

That's not exactly true. I'm using EPIA 5000 boards which run as diskless workstations. They *are* admirably silent, *but* the 12 V DC-DC converter (a PW60A) makes a very silent, yet audible whispering noise. This is normal, but you'd never have heard it if you used some fans!

Re:Cool mini-ITX stuff...

[nixfixer]

Good point. You're right that it does make a slight noise (I have eden fanless CPU so don't have/hear any fans), which I can hear if my head is less than 50cm from it. Similar to an external transformer for some electronic devices. When mounted inside the case though you have to try very hard to hear it.

It is only when you have no moving parts - no hard drive, no fans - that you can have near zero noise computer.

Dual-processor car computer?

[TechnoPops]

This also looks like the basis for a nice car computer.

Why would you need a car computer with dual processors?

Re:Dual-processor car computer?

[xlyz]

Why would you need a car computer with dual processors?

wait for your car_of_choice being equipped with a longhorn based OS, and then you'll realize it

Re:Dual-processor car computer?

[GuruBuckaroo]

Why would you need a car computer with dual processors?

Why would anyone need more that 640K Ram?

Re:Dual-processor car computer?

[Anonymous Coward]

the comment was about a 168 processor rack as a car computer. and you need one about 84 times more than you need a dual processor car computer. why you need one should be pretty obvious.

Re:Dual-processor car computer?

[Anonymous Coward]

You might not. But for a PVR, it's helpful. That's the great thing about general purpose computers.

Re:Dual-processor car computer?

[Anonymous Coward]

The backseat driver, of course!

Re:Dual-processor car computer?

[op12]

You need one processor to run a moving LED strip on the front of the car, and the other one to talk to you.

"Hello, Michael."

Re:Dual-processor car computer?

[grylnsmn]

Something like this could be useful for where I work.

We do railroad track geometry testing, and use a modified pickup truck to carry our equipment. A dual processor system would be better for us than our current setup. It would allow us to use one machine for data collection (especially the interrupt handling) and realtime analysis of the data. Additionally, the smaller form factor would allow us to have a lot more room in the back seat of our truck.

2 1GHz processors would be more than enough for our needs. We only have a 800MHz PIII right now.

Re:Dual-processor car computer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent up! GuruBuckaroo put his finger on it! :)

Re:Dual-processor car computer?

[UberLame]

To drive the car silly.

Re:Dual-processor car computer?

[QMO]

A car computer (other than the one that runs the car) isn't a need in the first place. As long as you're having the luxury (for fun, to impress geeks, bore women, whatever) you might as well get a dual processor.

Re:Dual-processor car computer?

[Anonymous Coward]

The P3/800 probably walks all over dual 1GHz C3's... I have a 1GHz C3 machine with 1/2GB DDR and a 5400RPM drive, it's slow I hate to use the machine any more. It's been relegated to postifx/httpd only.

Re:Dual-processor car computer?

[phrasebook]

Keep in mind that those 1GHz processors are equivalent to a P3-600 or something around there. Your tasks might run smoother but they'll probably run slower.

Re:Dual-processor car computer?

[bani]

keep in mind each eden 1ghz processor is roughly equivalent to a 500mhz p2 (or 500mhz k6, if you arent familiar with p2's).

your 800mhz p3 would grind the dual 1ghz eden to dust.

Re:Dual-processor car computer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless, of course, you're doing MPEG decoding or AES encryption..

Re:Dual-processor car computer?

[Marthisdil]

Ooooor...you can buy a desktop replacement laptop and have more power, and have it take up even less space...

Re:Dual-processor car computer?

[grylnsmn]

Except, that the processing required isn't all that much (we only have to analyze around 25 feet per second). What kills us are the bottlenecks with interrupt handling. That is the area where dual processors would come in handy.

Right now, we use a rack-mount system, but that takes up a lot of space in the back seat (half of the back), and can be difficult to remove for maintenance or to temporarily mount on our clients' trains. A mini-ITX form factor could greatly reduce the space that it takes, allowing us to have more room for other equipment or even a second operator.

Re:Dual-processor car computer?

[bani]

how about a shuttle SFF with a p4 cpu. hyperthread cpu if you really care.

that will demolish the dual eden in every conceivable way, including interrupt handling. and if you're worried about power consumption, use a pentium-m. it will still demolish the via performance wise and interrupt wise and use almost no power to boot.

SFF will also reduce the space taken to almost nothing.

Yes, but...

[cmburns69]

Thats all well and good for a potential car computer, but can it keep me from getting pulled over?

Re:Yes, but...

[somethinghollow]

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: No.

Heat sinks

[Profane MuthaFucka]

It should be noted that the photos do not show the heat sinks that in fact are intalled on the board.

Re:Heat sinks

[Dolphinzilla]

More importantly from the photo's there is no provision for mounting a heatsink on the second CPU - I think the board may be a notional layout and does not really exist yet... The CPU support components (bypass caps, crystals etc.. are also not present or evident in the photo)

Re:Heat sinks

[gt25500]

The heatsinks will probably be epoxied on.

Re:Heat sinks

[Profane MuthaFucka]

I've got an ME6000 board and it is indeed glued on. No mechanical latches at all.

Re:Heat sinks

[Anonymous Coward]

If you read the official site it says it is fanless;
"Combined with the VIA CN400 digital media chipset, the VIA EPIA DP enables the development of a wealth of high density, low power consumption, fanless, and embedded applications to be implemented in small form factor or node farm configurations with extensive processing resources."

http://www.viaembedded.com/product/epia_dp_spec.js p?motherboardId=321

Re:Heat sinks

[Anonymous Coward]

The package that has mounting holes nearby isn't a CPU. The CPUs are those tiny little BGA packages.

Re:Heat sinks

[Dolphinzilla]

Ooops - my bad - you are right, I forgot VIA makes the chipset as well. the bigger parts are the Northbridge and Video maybe... Thanks !!

Re:Heat sinks

[Profane MuthaFucka]

Fanless, but not heat-sink-less. The photos don't show the heat sinks, which are actually rather small.

Why both SATA and ATA-133

[selectspec]

You'd think that just SATA would be plenty (maybe SAS for leading edge). Why would want to go to small form factor and use parallel ATA drives?

Re:Why both SATA and ATA-133

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want mini-itx, chances are that you'll want 2.5'' notebook hard disks - which are both quiet and small.

Go find me a SATA 2.5'' hard disk please ;)

Re:Why both SATA and ATA-133

[Anonymous Coward]

While SATA harddrives are plentiful, sata cd/dvd drives have only recently started appearing on the market.

Re:Why both SATA and ATA-133

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd think that just SATA would be plenty (maybe SAS for leading edge). Why would want to go to small form factor and use parallel ATA drives?

Give me a link to a SATA optical drive!

Re:Why both SATA and ATA-133

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.plextor.com/english/products/716SA.htm

Re:Why both SATA and ATA-133

[Anonymous Coward]

People may want to use spare parts (hard drives, CD-ROM drives that they have laying around) which are not SATA...

Re:Why both SATA and ATA-133

[fo0bar]

Give me a link to a SATA optical drive!

Plextor 716SA

Now, if you say "give me a link to a second SATA optical drive", I might have a harder time.

Re:Why both SATA and ATA-133

[csimpkin]

From Fujitsu

Re:Why both SATA and ATA-133

[selectspec]

Fujitsu has a 2.5" SATA plus the 2.5" SAS drives are out too. Admittedly, they are both just now on the market (and might not be shipping in volume yet).

Re:Why both SATA and ATA-133

[Anonymous Coward]

Consider for a moment that CompactFlash's native interface is ATA.

Re:Why both SATA and ATA-133

[Compuser]

Harder time? No! See e.g.
http://www.hothardware.com/viewarticle.cfm?a rticle id=539&cid=4

Powerful or not...

[Anonymous Coward]

...those mini itx boards are damn expensive! Consider the P-M system (for which you would have to use ultra low profile RAM, at least for that case), for the same price you could afford a smaller, lighter and *silent* (fanless) notebook.

When it comes to computer hardware, the dominent factor will always be the production quanitites - until something massmarket, its going to be v. expensive.

There are better buys out there, guys.

Re:Powerful or not...

[Anonymous Coward]

But, it doesn't become cheap production hardware until after a few people buy it when it's expensive.

Does it suppot serial port re-direct

[ZuggZugg]

I was wondering if it supports console redirect to the serial port or even better still serial over IP to provide a headless/keybordless managenent using the extra NIC?

That would make for a slick *nix based system in the closet...

Re:Does it suppot serial port re-direct

[PatrickThomson]

What's wrong with ssh?

Re:Does it suppot serial port re-direct

[id]

I don't know about for his closet, but for a data center where you might need to get at the box after it has crashed, or maybe to remotely change IP addresses/routes/other stuff, it would be very nice.

Re:Does it suppot serial port re-direct

[Anonymous Coward]

I have yet to see motherboard with ssh enabled BIOS...maybe I've just not looked hard enough.

Re:Does it suppot serial port re-direct

[jmcneill]

The board appears to have a PCI slot. You should be able to add a PC Weasel 2000 board to it. From the PC Weasel web site:

The PC Weasel provides the answer by emulating a video board and keyboard and presenting a serial port to the outside world. Plugged into an available ISA or PCI slot, it takes the characters written by your CPU into its "video" memory and pumps them out its onboard RS-232 port. Characters input by you into the RS-232 port are converted into keyboard scan codes and presented to the motherboard's keyboard connector.

They're $350 USD (plus shipping) for the PCI model, but if you're using it in a datacenter, it's a real steal.

Re:Does it suppot serial port re-direct

[PatrickThomson]

True, it is hard to fit up an emergency monitor/keyboard to something in a rack, I suppose.

Re:Does it suppot serial port re-direct

[Anonymous Coward]

If only people always had local access to stuff.

Re:Does it suppot serial port re-direct

[id]

console servers.

Re:Does it suppot serial port re-direct

[OrangeSpyderMan]

They're $350 USD (plus shipping) for the PCI model, but if you're using it in a datacenter, it's a real steal.

Rubbish - if you have a datacenter you have console servers. If you haven't you are dumb - the price is peanuts based on the cost of the whole datacenter, so anyone building one already has equipment designed for the task, with vendor maintenance. Datacenters aren't expensive because they are full of servers, they're expensive because they have cabling, cooling, redundant power etc. If you've paid for that, filled it with servers and are thinking that a good opportunity to save a dollar or two would be to look for cheap ways to implement console servers - you need shooting :-)

Re:Does it suppot serial port re-direct

[ArbitraryConstant]

You have to boot up first.

They want how much?

[Anonymous Coward]

$1800 each for the P620. $850 each for "OEM" quantities. Too rich for my blood.

Re:They want how much?

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially considering you can build a Dual-Operteron 246 (2 GHz) based on the sweet little IWill ZMAXdp motherboard/case SFF for a lot less dough that this thing costs.

Re:They want how much?

[bobcrotch]

Yes, then finding a source for them... to buy them in small ammounts is always a joy.

Industry Change

[stupidcomputers]

Its finally nice to see a company moving the pc in the right directions-small, fast, and quiet. For 20 years the desktop computer has stayed about the same size...its 2005 for crying out loud! Lets get some innovation!

Re:Industry Change

[QMO]

"For 20 years the desktop computer has stayed about the same size"

I can see 2 reasons right away:

1. People feel more comfortable using things of a certain size.

2. Computers have greatly increased in power.

Also, perhaps desktops haven't gotten much smaller (though the computer on my desk right now would fit about 4 times in a standard AT case), but personal computers have gotten MUCH smaller.
Consider a new cellphone. Smaller than a hand, yet more powerful than a standard 386 from 15 years ago.

Re:Industry Change

[bani]

shuttle has been making small, fast, and quiet for some years now.

the hard drive is the loudest thing in my shuttle SFF, and that's already a very quiet maxtor with FDB. you can't even hear the fan at all.

42 U?

[Anonymous Coward]

Whaer can I get me one o' those 42U units here in Starr County?

Well I think there's only one thing to conclude.

[Anonymous Coward]

You are not Xzibit.

Excellent, but one problem...

[NRAdude]

The one PCI slot is 32bit 66MHz.

How to use Magma PCI extension to full performance capacity? It's always the little product omissions that are the most debate. Still, a great product. A great cluster!

What?

[mollyhackit]

Don't they know they need to use giant noisy fans to make a proper pc. What is it with this passivley cooled 486 style mindset?

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

i guess they didn't find matching fan for this board (mini-itx == 170 x 170 mm), so they desided to go w/o one.
hopefully they get it right with nano-itx (120 x 120 mm) that has just right size for one 120mm fan :)

Re:What?

[evilviper]

Their processors perform like 486s, so their only way to successfully market them has been as 'small', and 'silent'. Now, PIIIs or Athlons are just as low-power for the relative performance (much lower in some cases), but never-the-less, VIA's marketing has worked well.

mnb Re:TV?

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of spoiled rich kid uses a dual processor machine as a Myth box?

My Fucking God - as we all insane here?

Re:mnb Re:TV?

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably smarter then a moron who uses a Pentium 2,0ghz cpu for looking at slashdot.

Your a fucking idiot.

Re:mnb Re:TV?

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm, have you tried setting up a dual tuner box (two WinTV cards, or one of the dual tuner cards) without some serious hardware to back it up?

If all you're doing is watching porn and downloaded Anime, then a 1G Athlon will work fine. But if you're trying to record two video streams simulatniously, a dual-proc box would Help.

Re:mnb Re:TV?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Your a fucking idiot. Ohhhhh ... the irony!

render farm?

[Anonymous Coward]

would this be a good way to build a cheap low power render farm?

Re:render farm?

[valkoinen]

Too bad that they are not exactly cheap and generally suck at floating point performance (ie. 3D rendering).

Re:render farm?

[LnxAddct]

It'd certainly be good and use low power, but its anything but cheap. These guys go for $850 in bulk and $1800 in single units. Although the power savings may be worth it... itd take quite some time.
Regards,
Steve

Re:render farm?

[llamalicious]

Try not to think of cost saving just in terms of the electricity bill direct to the servers.

Think: Reduced thermal load across the lot of them could allow you to reduce A/C costs considerably, both in terms of buying smaller A/C units, and the electricity to run them as well.
Think: Space/cost savings, more processing in a smaller space, especially if you're renting cabinets or by the square foot.

If we're talking about server farms full of these, the savings could easily overtake the cost of the machines. (granted, this depends on what kind of processing power you need too)

Perhaps not so great for applications that need super high TPS ratings or massive floating point calcs, although I suppose I'll have reserve judgement on these VIAs until I find some real benchmarks.

does it come with the usual VIA problems

[Anonymous Coward]

The previous CL266 based boards suffer from hangup when too much traffic flows thru the DMA system
(see http://forums.viaarena.com/messageview.aspx?catid= 28&threadid=60131&enterthread=y/ for info - let's hope the new chip improves on this. Though VIA claim to support LINUX they have not released any open source drivers (and insist on providing patches against outdated distributions) nor will they release any information for FOSS developers (the UNICHROME project relies on trial and error to develop drivers) . Their support on their forum is abysmal (see http://forums.viaarena.com/messageview.aspx?catid= 32&threadid=60036&enterthread=y/ )

graphics chipset

[Mike1024]

It's got a a media-processing graphics chipset? That should be a bit improvement on my current graphics chipset, which will do everything except media processing!

Michael

Ahhhhhh, mini completeness

[greg_barton]

With one of those and one of these my mini MythTV dreams will be complete...

Re:Ahhhhhh, mini completeness

[Enrico Pulatzo]

Is that a home theater in your pocket, or are you happy to see me?

What board are those photos of?

[marmite]

The article says that the northbride is a CN400, but the photos have a CLE266 northbridge on... What's up with that?

--marmite

Re:What board are those photos of?

[kosmicki]

The photos are of a preproduction model.

Re:What board are those photos of?

[acoustix]

RTFA: "Note: the photos shown here depict a pre-production version of the DP-310 supplied by Via last fall. Via has not yet responded to requests for photos of the production version.

There you have it.

-Nick

Re:What board are those photos of?

[loony]

it seems to be a pre-production board or maybe even fake images. The real thing also has 2 memory slots...

http://www.viaembedded.com/product/epia_dp_spec. js p?motherboardId=321

Go to VIA directly and you shall see...

Peter.

I'm not an apple whore

[grahamsz]

But i think they are leading the industry (in sales at least) of small desktop machines.

Re:I'm not an apple whore

[UserChrisCanter4]

Speaking as someone who owns three Apples, leading the small desktop industry isn't too tough. Apple's the only big-name company producing a ready-built Mini-ITX sized desktop. Dell makes their 4x00 series of Inspirons, but they're not nearly as small as a mini-itx or Mac Mini. Alienware and similar game PC companies make SFF (shuttle-style) game computers, but they're physically larger and account for such a tiny slice of the market that we could effectively ignore those numbers. I've seen IBM and HP tiny desktops, but they're corporate-targetted products similar to Compaq's old iPaq desktop (not the PDA), and I don't know that a consumer can even purchase one without jumping through small business hoops.

The day Joe User can walk into a Best Buy or Circuit City and walk out with a name-brand Mini-ITX computer, there might be some more competition in that market space. As it is, though, general purpose PC buyers seem to look at price more than anything else, and those who want small products tend to end up with notebooks anyway.

Re:I'm not an apple whore

[UWC]

The local CompUSA here has a couple of Shuttle-sized machines sitting right next to the Apple section of the store. I kind of glanced their way as I was waiting for the clerk to fetch my Mini back in January. Aside from hard drive speed and RAM amount (I still need to get a 512MB stick and a putty knife), I'm loving the Mini.

My previous primary computer was a first-generation Alienware laptop that I'm still paying for. I assume I'll use it more once I clear out some space for it. It has an amazing screen. For now, though, the Mini is doing most everything I need it to (except Half-Life 2), and I'm easing myself into Unix while I'm at it.

Re:I'm not an apple whore

[UserChrisCanter4]

See my post above; I've seen Shuttle-type machines in both CompUSA and Best Buy. They're nowhere near as small as Mini-ITX computers, though, and they tend to be aimed at a very different market.

Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[Fortunato_NC]

Can't we let PS/2 ports die already? Four USB 2.0 ports on this thing, and Via still thought we needed PS/2 ports. I'd rather drop the PS/2 ports and get a FireWire port, or another USB 2.0 port. PS/2 keyboard and mouse ports are as much of a dead end as the MCA bus - it's time to let go.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[advocate_one]

cos I have no faith in the ability of a USB connection to remain active for a long time... my other box has currently got some 246 days of uptime and the PS2 keyboard and mouse interfaces have never fallen over in all that time.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[Anonymous Coward]

Go to Best Buy / Circuit City / Staples, etc., and tell me how many PS/2 devices you see there, then tell me how many USB devices you see.

There are still a ton of PS/2 peripherals around, and given that the functionality is most likely already in the southbridge, it hardly makes sense NOT to populate the connectors.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[Anonymous Coward]

USB I/O devices are still fair bit more expensive than equivalent PS/2. For cost sensitive designs (I realize this particular board is not quite low-cost) you can reduce system cost by 10% by using PS/2 peripherals. (And note that the USB to PS/2 adapters are fairly costly too).

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[hey!]

Hah!

I've seen many a system brought down by a bad PS/2 keyboard.

Now I've seen USB keyboards that stopped working after a while, but I've never seen a system hang because of one.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[garcia]

Sorry but USB keyboards are too expensive compared to the $4.99 PS/2 I just picked up.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[Jeff DeMaagd]

First, let me state that I want to keep PS/2 ports around, but I really don't think USB is prohibitively more expensive.

I'm not sure what kind of systems you are talking about. A desktop system with USB components might be at most, $10 more expensive than those of PS/2.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[Fortunato_NC]

Oh, come now. I've seen lots of computers where if you accidentally kicked out the PS/2 mouse and put it back in, your mouse pointer was frozen. Windows 95 even gave you the option to reboot if it realized you had booted without your normal PS/2 mouse attached. If reliability was the issue, we would still be using an old RS-232 serial mouse.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[dillon_rinker]

Do they bother you? Then desolder them.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[Anonymous Coward]

Two words: Legacy KVM

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[hitzroth]

Yeah, at $5.25 a USB keyboard is just sooo much more expensive than your PS/2 one.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[kinema]

I agree that PS/2, serial and parallel ports shouldn't be taking up space on the back side of a motherboard. Although because they are simple 'dumb' interfaces that require very little silicon to implement I hope that manufactures at least continue to provide a serial port or two in the form of pin headders somewhere on the board.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[sporty]

No it's not. I have a few of those keyboards at home. No need to buy new ones. Don't alienate me, thanks.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[Anonymous Coward]

Legacy-free USB-input-only computers are nothing but trouble. They work fine for awhile, then one day the BIOS revolts and decides it doesn't need the USB ports telling it what to do anymore and you find yourself with a very expensive paperweight.

"Oh, I'll just boot into DOS and reflash the bios" you think, so you throw your recovery disk in and at the command prompt you remember that your 1337 recovery skillz still require a functioning keyboard. Even if you think you're especially clever and design an automated bios-flashing disk you find youself screaming in frustration at a "Are you SURE you want to do this?" prompt that ignores script input.

Yeah, this is all the fault of the Horse Pucking *cough* manufacturer, but I don't care anymore. I want to keep my ps2 and serial ports which have never failed me, even if I don't actually use them. USB is nice, but USB-only I don't need.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[doorbot.com]

Now I've seen USB keyboards that stopped working after a while, but I've never seen a system hang because of one.

I haven't seen USB keyboard crashes either. What I find a bit rediculous about the parent's comment is that while a USB device may "disappear", wouldn't simply unplugging it and then replugging it solve that problem? USB is designed to be hot swappable. And a system/OS that doesn't automatically detect a USB device that was working previously sounds broken to me...

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[EXrider]

I believe they do have headers for two FireWire ports on the board. At least my Epia M1000 board does, so I would assume the newer boards have it.

As a Mac user for my primary desktop, I agree, PS/2 ports suck, and need to be replaced by USB already, as well as the legacy shit that is the floppy drive.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[nbert]

It might be legacy, but many people don't like those soft touch keyboards available today.

IMO it would be a shame to leave those still using original IBM keyboards (for example) out in the rain just to save ~50 cents per board.

And after all USB keyboards don't offer more than their predecessors apart from being hot-pluggable.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[Anonymous Coward]

everyone has PS2 keyboards, it truely doesnt take much space up. its also easy to implement. by eliminating it, you are eliminating potential buyers.

as for firewir--USB is basically just as good, and it has more devices which can use it. Firewire is additionally a huge (physical) security threat. a quick google came up with some info here about its (in)security regarding the firewire specification. it "allows client devices to directly access host memory, bypassing operating system limitations. A malicious client device can read and modify sensitive memory, causing privilege escalation, information leakage and system compromise."

fun.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[Frogbert]

PS/2 Mice have twice the sample rate as USB mice, and therefore are much better at playing games. So there is still a need for PS/2 Ports for mice.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[karnal]

Don't you think with usb2.0 they could increase their sample rate on mice?

It's not the interface that limits at that point.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, that's $5.25 plus $5.55 shipping.

Still not a bad price, yeah.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[Brianwa]

The problem is that many of us have extra PS/2 mice and keyboards laying around, and we would much rather use those than buy some brand new ones that only work on computers that support USB.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[rsborg]

Now I've seen USB keyboards that stopped working after a while, but I've never seen a system hang because of one.

I take it you've never tried to run USB devices with WindowsNT 4.0, have you :-) Twas 4 years ago, and I was all happy with my nice new shiny USB mouse... plug it in, *BSOD*. I suppose you're right.. it wasn't technically a HANG

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[ChunderDownunder]

I take it you've never tried to run USB devices with WindowsNT 4.0, have you :-)

NT 4.0 wasn't designed to support USB, so tough luck. :(
I even had trouble even getting a 3 button PS/2 mouse to work with NT, which worked fine in a shop under 95.

Before the iMac popularised USB connections, the U in USB used to stand for 'useless'. :)

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[cbiltcliffe]

I am still using an RS-232 serial mouse. One of those with the PC/MS switch on the bottom. Set at PC, just so I can say there's absolutely nothing to do with Microsoft on that particular computer. Even though it's not true, because I've got the MS TrueType fonts installed.....

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would they be "out in the rain"? They're going to spend $600 on a new computer and can't sped an extra $20 an a USB keyboard and mouse?

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[bluGill]

On a system of this size yes they do. Look close, there isn't much room for ports in the size they are allowed. PS/2 ports take up some space that could be better used for other things. Firewire, for instance, though even more USB ports would be handy and more useful.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[rob_squared]

Do you *really* need a 12mbps, or for that matter a 400mbps, connection to your frigging keyboard and mouse?

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[toddestan]

Does anyone have any valid complaints against the PS/2 ports other than the fact they are old? They work, they do everything I need, and they do it well. I see no reason for them needing to go.

Also, keep in mind that if they ditched the PS/2 ports, you would have to add 2 more USB ports to get back to where you started (that is 4 free USB ports after hooking up keyboard/mouse).

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[Nurgled]

Where can I find an old-fashioned, heavy, clacky keyboard with a USB interface? This isn't a troll, it's a serious question. One of these days my last one of these things is going to break and I'm going to need to replace it, and right now I'm having a hard time finding anything but flimsy, cheap keyboards with no give on the keys and with the Ins/Del/Home/End/PgUp/PgDn keys in the wrong places.

Re:Why does this thing STILL have PS/2 ports?

[nbert]

That's not my point. I would spend an extra 20 bucks for a new keyboard if it would be as good as my old one.

However, I already mentioned that most keyboards today are soft touch, so I'm not interested.

On a related note it's cheaper in the long run to buy a good keyboard. Mine is about 7 years old and I type a lot on it every day. It even survived all the coffee/soda/wine/beer/cola I accidentally spilled on it. After a day it's dry and as good as new.

I'm using a Cherry MX 3000 btw. When it breaks I'll try to get one of those 80's IBM keyboards, because they've got a slightly better touch.

Now shipping? Where?

[palfrey]

Given Via's history of announcing Mini/Nano-itx boards as "shipping now" and not shipping for anything up to a year or so (anyone actually seen commercial supplies of standard generic 1-processor Nano-ITX boards yet?), does anyone know if this is *actually* shipping? Mini-itx.com doesn't have it, neither does epiacenter.com or linitx.com. I'll believe "shipping now" when someone actually has it...

Re:Now shipping? Where?

[DarthVain]

Yeah I had almost forgotten about those "Nano-ITX" boards... I remember several sites saying they had them but were out of stock or pre-order... that was like a year ago it seem. Very sketchy... Bad VIA bad!

also check this out... same website! lol

http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4897375933.html

"Just released"... funny... I see posts going back into 2003!!! Guess what its 2005 and I don't see any. Probably same bs.

Again with the PR

[DarthVain]

OK people before you all jump on this bandwagon, do some research and check out some reviews.... The ITX using a mobile P4 is interesting... Dual ITX VIA to me is not. VIA owns what was CRIX remember those? No? You know why, because they sucked, they were low power, but ultra low profermance. They come up with the ITX platform so that they could pimp off these horrible processors. From what I have read they are not good for much of anything except single task as an mp3 player. Now with dual it MAY be able to play a DVD without dying... but probably not as the onboard grafix are weak to say the least. Don't get me wrong, ITX as a technology is pretty interesting, but lack of performance is a major problem. Eveyone knows the pros and cons of dual processors (probably here anyway), so the likelihood of anything taking advantage of it is unlikey. In all it will probably let you play a mp3 AND do someting else rather than just single tasking. Perhaps if they spent more time on their processors and less time on their boards they might get somewhere... who knows maybe they are... but anyway in all likelihood a VIA ITX DUAL will still be underpowered for all but the simplest applications. A desktop replacement it is not. Guess will have to just wait for the reviews... Though in the past, production, availability, lack of reviews and information has been a problem. It would not surprise me if this is a paper launch, and it will remain etheral for months or forever.

Anyway my 2 cents

and no I didn't RTFA :)

Re:Again with the PR

[not-real-sure]

I run a a Cyrix processor in my MS Exchange 2k3 machine at home which also runs MS Server 2k3. The machine is real simple 512 megs of PC133 ram a 60 gig drive and a Cyrix 800Mhz processor and it runs like a champ...... The problem with Cyrix processors where that they overheated really quickly. They didn't disapate heat like AMD and Intel processors did. Other then that they are perfectly capable processors that came at a bargin price.

Re:Again with the PR

[tbcpp]

Look at the benchmarks on the web. Yes these things may not be P4s but they aren't that bad.

Re:Again with the PR

[LnxAddct]

Err... have you ever used one? I have on running right now for some 200 days or so streaming audio and video. Its only 800 mhz but performs amazingly well. I can use it for just about everything i need and it was only like $150 iirc. How can you beat that?
Regards,
Steve

Re:Again with the PR

[geekschmoe]

They come up with the ITX platform so that they could pimp off these horrible processors. From what I have read they are not good for much of anything except single task as an mp3 player.

I had a via mini-ITX board 2 years ago. It was 800mhz. I put a tv tuner card in the box and captured cable tv to divx in real time. That took about 35-40% CPU. That means I was able to watch other divx movies (via the Composite TV-OUT) at the same time it was encoding. Oh, and mp3blaster worked great too!

and no I didn't RTFA :)

or anything else for that matter, eh?

Re:Again with the PR

[geekschmoe]

(via the Composite TV-OUT)

strike that. it was a pci geforce2 MX400 card with tv-out. so, most the graphics processing was offloaded onto it.

Re:Again with the PR

[DarthVain]

easier to reply to me than all the people who thought this was "flamebait" for some reason...

#1) My comments were based on a round up review of ITX boards by VIA 600, 800, and 1000, the review really being about the 1000. General conclusion was ITX was very limited in real use.

#2) I am NOT saying that your Cyrix 800 or whatever is not an ok processor. I am also not saying that your DESKTOP Cyrix processor is in an ITX board. What I am saying is that a slower verions (see less heat and less power) IS in these boards. That by TODAYS standards they are not that fast, nor good for much. In the article I read the benchmarks would crazy... Like the power you get in a VIA C3 800 is about what you would get from a 400 or 266 Mhz P2 or something. While there is NOTHING wrong with either a 400 or 266 Mhz processor, their applaication today is limited. To say playing mp3's or runing Office 97 or something.... LIMITED FUNCTIONALILTY! Geesh.... I can't believe I got flamebait.. I have never gotten flamebait before. Well for all you ITX and Cyrix fanboys (all 6 of you) enjoy... I was just trying to point out the fact that these are underpowered and have limited use.

Amps in your pants

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry to burst the bubble kiddo, but 2.5 kW in an automobile implies that you are pulling 208 Amps at 12 volts. That is a wee bit taxing on your standard automobile electrical system. Maybe if you wire this up with 2 guage welding cable, and use an extra heavy duty alternator your might make it work. I wouldn't want to try.

Re:Amps in your pants

[LnxAddct]

maybe i misunderstood the article but it seems to me that its 2.5 kW using 84 boards (168 processors), so per board its only like 29 Watts.
Regards,
Steve

Re:Amps in your pants

[Anonymous Coward]

but why the fuck would you want 40 odd processors in your car?

Re:Amps in your pants

[galen]

Read that again. The 2.5kW refers to the power drawn by 168 of the processors working as a cluster. Presumably you could divide 2.5kW by 84 to get the power consumption of a pair of them.

Re:Amps in your pants

[Shdwdrgn]

2.5kW was for the ENITIRE RACK. A single unit is pulling about 60W, which is only 5A in a car.

Um...

[lighting]

Two hairdryers will consume about 2.5 watts.
Two thousand hairdryers will consume 2.5 kilowatts.

~Nick

Re:Um...

[Nallep]

What kind of hair dryer are you using?
most hair dryers are around 1800 watts, 1.25 watts per hair dryer won't dry anything.

Re:Um...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, maybe thats why he said 2.5kW or 1250W a piece.

Re:Um...

[Anonymous Coward]

One that will dry 1440 hairs?

(1800 w / 1.25 w per h = 1440 h)

Re:Um...

[rco3]

Wow. You find a 1.25 W hairdryer usable? It may be worth trying Rogaine.

For the rest of us, with more than three hairs on our heads, the average USABLE hairdryer uses upwards of a kilowatt. One thousand hairdryers would use a MEGAWATT.

The day approaches, though, when I'll be able to use that 1.25 W hairdryer. My wife says it makes me look distinguished, but it makes me feel like Krusty the Klown. Just in case you wondered...

How much speed is enough?

[aoteoroa]

Useable? Yes. Acceptable for generic web browsing and word processing? Maybe. An excellent-performing midrange desktop replacement? No way.

The benchmark you linked said the single processor handled dvd playback flawlessly, and played divx movies "perfectly with no slowdowns or stutters"

Their conclusion:
"VIA has definitely listened to the users of the EPIA on this one. They've fixed up all of the major problems that stopped the EPIA becoming a perfect TV-Run machine. Anyone who is looking to set up a dedicated TV-Run machine should look no further than the VIA EPIA-M - its high quality DVD and DivX playback make it a perfect choice!"

That sounds fast enough to replace many home desktops

Re:How much speed is enough?

[technomancerX]

The benchmark you linked said the single processor handled dvd playback flawlessly, and played divx movies "perfectly with no slowdowns or stutters"

You're overlooking the bit that the chipset has mpeg hardware acceleration. How fast it decoded dvds has nothing to do with the overall system performance. These boxes are generally SLOW. They have hardware acceleration that does in fact make them cool for DVR applications, but that has nothing to do with using it as a desktop system.

Re:How much speed is enough?

[UserChrisCanter4]

It handles video playback because it has a dedicated processor that heavily assists MPEG-2/4 decoding. What about simple image or video editing (yes, Joe User is actually interested in preserving his memories). What about heavy multitasking? Hell, what about the occasional 2 year-old game? Remember, we're talking here about non-video performance approximately equal to dual 500Mhz PIIIs. Yes, it's probably useable, but you can buy a lot more powerful kit for what this will probably sell for.

Yeah, it'd probably work fine as a mediaPC (provided you weren't trying for HD), but the average home user does sometimes demand more than that, and this thing doesn't look like it would deliver.

Re:How much speed is enough?

[JPriest]

The 35MHz ARM processor in my DVD player is pretty good at DVD playback too but that does not make it a desktop replacement. The benchmark also showed that the 1Ghz Via processor has a 38% slower CPU Integer performance than a 450MHz AMD K6-III. A 1 GHz via runs like a 333MHz AMD or Intel proc.

Re:How much speed is enough?

[Anonymous Coward]

It handles video playback because it has a dedicated processor that heavily assists MPEG-2/4 decoding.

A single processor system with embedded video has a dedicated processor for DVD playing? :-)

I'm posting this from a dual processor system slower than 2x400 MHz. The responsiveness is pretty good.
You seem to be making your judgements based on benchmark numbers you've read and ignoring experiences of people like this. The average home users I know could easily use a machine like this for the email and web browsing they do.

Re:How much speed is enough?

[UserChrisCanter4]

From the benchmark article I posted:

Integrated CastleRock Graphics Adapter with MPEG2 Decoding

And from the dual processor article post:

The CN400 features an integrated UniChrome Pro graphics processor with 2D/3D graphics engine, hardware digital video acceleration, and Chromotion CE video display engine, including hardware MPEG-2/-4 acceleration and advanced video rendering and display technologies

So, yeah, a single processor system with embedded video does have a dedicated processor (technically the GPU) for DVD playing. MPEG-2 hardware decoders are pretty trivial to construct, and I can remember videocards as far back as the Voodoo3 building it in as part of the chipset. My guess is that a lot of the calculations for decoding MPEG video are quite similar to certain 3D calculations, as nearly every GPU seems to support this feature.

I'm sure the responsiveness is fine. I've used SMP systems, and they generally do have a good ability to resist getting bogged down. My point here was two-fold, though.

1) While acceptable for some use, it is not a reasonably powered mid-range desktop; Even Joe User demands more than email and surfing nowadays.

2) I wouldn't abandon a 2x500mhz system, but I also wouldn't go out and pay ~$250 for one right now.

Re:How much speed is enough?

[phsdv]

The faster you get to 65, the faster money flows to Iran, Irak etc. And the more everyone depends on them. If that is what you want, then press the accelerator deeper the next time the trafic light jumps to green!

And I am not even starting about the extra air polution. Just remember my words, in say 15 years, when everyone *needs* to wear an air filter when they go outside. But I guess you do not care, there you car already has one, right?

Maybe not, but . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's connected to the right cop-blackmail-auto-notify site by satelite internet connection it meight keep you from getting a ticket ala BOFH.

Dont forget

[OverlordQ]

a link to the actual product page

First it was Libraries of Congress...

[MrFenty]

...for measuring information, now it's measuring computing power by Ghz/hairdryer ?!

Sheesh.

Re:First it was Libraries of Congress...

[tsotha]

Yeah. And it's kinda sleezy too, since hairdryers consume quite a lot of power.

Er.. yeah...

[lakeland]

Because I really would rather have two underperforming CPUs in my computer instead of one fast one.

I mean, dual proc is really nice for making a desktop system interactive since it drops latency to essentially zero, but you've got to have the speed there for when you need it too. The 1GHz via feels slower than a 1GHz intel CPU.

Something that would be really cool, though probably technically hard to do, is to get a decent processor and run it with a VIA or similar as the second CPU. That way you can cut about $100 off the price of a SMP system while still getting the fast response times from dual CPU. I mean, the acronym calls it SMP right? So AMP must be possible. Right?

Re:Er.. yeah...

[ArbitraryConstant]

"So AMP must be possible. Right?"

DragonFlyBSD pretty much does that. They claim that it will improve performance, but they're still behind where FreeBSD 4.x was when they forked. They wanted to get it working before they optimized, so it's unclear what they'll be able to do when they get around to it.

The hardware won't change though. It has to support all the other OSes.

Re:Er.. yeah...

[drxray]

Hyperthreading more-or-less does this. Though if you use any kind of unix it's irrelevant - you can use the priority system and choose which programs get first call on processor resources - set everything that isn't your desktop/browser/other-app-you-interact-with-a-lot to run at low priority and your computer will feel snappy without any extra CPUs. It won't actually compute stuff any faster though.

(You can do something along those lines with windows too, but it pops up lots of warning messages...)

Re:Er.. yeah...

[rob_squared]

Congratulations, the marketing system has won you over. Two cpu's will effectively double the amount of instructions preformed per second. It takes a much bigger leap in clock speed on a single cpu to get the same results.

Re:Er.. yeah...

[lakeland]

Hmmm, I'm unconvinced. Unless the marketing _really_ has won me over!?

Say I'm running some program. Doom, gimp, whatever. A dual CPU will essentially be a waste of time, agreed? I'll have one CPU working at 100% while the other sits idle.

Say instead I'm multi-tasking, perhaps running povray in the background while I surf, check email and the like. Now, my understanding is that the first CPU will be running at 100% running povray, so the second CPU will essentially be running the event loop and so handle all of the graphical redraws etc. In this scenario the dual-cpu setup will feel faster than a single fast CPU since I won't have to wait for povray to be switched out. One of the other people who replied said this was incorrect, and that a decent OS will set the priority of povray so low that it will switch out fast.

So... when does a dual-cpu setup win over a single-cpu at twice the clock speed? I guess if both processors are going at full speed the dual-cpu will win since the pipelines being cleared won't matter so much, same for cache misses, etc. But in any other scenario I get the single fast CPU winning.

is anyone using a mini-itx cluster in production?

[geekschmoe]

I am very curious if anyone can actually say they've used these mini-itx boards in a large cluster environment. I imagine with the current specs that you could only get 2 procs per chassis, resulting in only 84 procs per 42-U rack. Anyone have any links?

And if,

[ein2many]

on this car computer you put Windows on as the os you would be prone to crashing.

Watt the ..?

[Mr2cents]

A bicycle light would consume about 2Watts (rude guess).
A typical light bulb is 60 Watts.
An electric heater is 2000 Watts typical.
And I just went downstairs to check, a hairdryer is 1500 Watts (my mother is a hairdresser, so it's a "professional" version).

cheap Linux servers?

[VolciMaster]

Would it be reasonable to use a small batch of these in some kind of webhosting, or other mini-grid setting? If you don't want to get a Mac mini, these could make a good alternative. They're certainly small.

Re:cheap Linux servers?

[Kz]

I do that. For near-line archive, several 1U boxes, each with an M10000 Epia board and four 300GB HD. Another box with a database and a web frontend to manage it, and goes like a charm.

not much processing needs, but lots of storage space with little heat. unfortunately the next drives (400GB) are only at 7200 RPM, no longer 5400RM

Re:cheap Linux servers?

[Walkiry]

What distro did you put in those? I had some less-than-spectacular results with Debian, and although it's running now it's a bit clunky...

Re:cheap Linux servers?

[goMac2500]

Cept with the boards going for $1800 each its a wee bit expensive.

Re:cheap Linux servers?

[Kz]

i wanted to use all 4 HDs with data, so i made them netbootable. the best way to get it small and fast is busybox, on a cramfs ramdisk. 3.5MB kernel + 4MB root image, and that includes an http server!

Re:cheap Linux servers?

[Kz]

the Epia M10000 go for $165 (less than 10% of the new ones!)

Re:is anyone using a mini-itx cluster in productio

[Anonymous Coward]

Casetronic for one makes Dual mini-ITX 1U cases, with a 15" depth. 2 dual cpu mobo's per U is how they got to 168 processors per rack.

Re:is anyone using a mini-itx cluster in productio

[Anonymous Coward]

It's two processors *per board* and two boards *per chassis*. That's a total of four processors *per chassis*.

Now the fallicy is that you can cram all 42 rack slots full. Not likely. Even if you can get in 40 slots, that's 160 1GHz processors, 160GB of RAM and 80 gigabit network links... all off a little over 20A @ 120VAC.

Not shabby at all in my book!

Plus, I'm not sure where people are getting these prices from. The prices I'm seeing posted are *NOT* for this board, they're for the Pentium-M (2.3GHz) board. I haven't seen prices for these boards yet.

Wrong pictures?

[threephaseboy]

Those pictures don't match what's on via's site:

EPIA DP

Note the orientation of the processors, and the lack of PS2 ports on the (official?) pictures.

VIA Chips Everywhere! RUUUNNNN!

[Zemplar]

Am I the only one that avoids VIA chipset products like the plague?

And THAT thing is just LOADED with VIA chips!!

Worlds fastest ITX crash!!

14W per CPU

[Ulrich Hobelmann]

Looking at the (meager) performance of the VIA CPUs (had one for a year) and then looking at the AMD Geode NX (6W @ 1GHz), I think the VIA is toast.

The Geode does out-of-order execution and can issue more than one instruction per cycle; AFAIK the VIA is a simple pipelined architecture, so it's 2-3x slower in a lot of cases.

168?

[blooba]

Unless these are 1/2U servers, I cannot figure out how one can fit 168 cpu's into a 42U rack. At 2 CPU's per server, a rack of 1U servers would hold only 84 cpu's.

Re:168?

[schmoli]

well with the tiny size of the motherboard on these things, the theory is you can fit two of them in a 1U chassis.

Re:168?

[Nighttime]

You can get a 1U rackmount case that will let you fit 2 mini-ITX motherboards side-by-side.

Re:168?

[Anonymous Coward]

they are 1/2U servers

anonymous coward indeed

[LordMyren]

according to Via, a 42-U rack with 168 processors would draw about 2.5 kilowatts, or about as much power as two hair dryers. This also looks like the basis for a nice car computer.

i knew american SUV's were getting overly large, but REALLY NOW.

-Myren

good catch

[Anonymous Coward]

good catch! It looks like they've updated their page to correct the mistake. It now reports that these boards have 2 thousand processors on them.

Just add WLAN and get into a traffic jam and ...

[Qbertino]

... you've got serious beowulf potential.
In 10 years it will be like: "Imagine a traffic jam of these." here on /.

But is it real ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Given the amount of time (years) between the announcement of the Nano-ITX (NTX) format board and their current unavailability, I wouldn't get your hopes up.

I've bought some of their ITX format boards and they have been great - but what I really wanted they never shipped.

Shame

SMP??

[mollog]

There's a good question; why can't a person put two different processors into a system and expect it to work with an SMP OS? Really. Do that have to be exactly the same? Can you have a low-power laptop type processor paired with a full-bogey AMD as long as they're sharing the same system buss speed?

Re:SMP??

[karnal]

2 words.

Cache coherency.

The processors have to stay in step so you don't have scenarios where one thinks it's got a lock on a memory address, then BANG the second one writes over that memory first....

Then the first one writes over the same memory location, and then the second one gets invalid data from the same memory position if re-read....

Fun stuff.

Of course, you could run them on totally seperate memory spaces, but then you'd effectively have 2 computers....

Re:SMP??

[swb]

Of course, you could run them on totally seperate memory spaces, but then you'd effectively have 2 computers...

Doesn't NUMA essentially solve this problem, or at least make it work?

Re:SMP??

[bluGill]

There are two issues.

First is hardware. Each processor uses different signaling. Voltages are not always comparable, and where the clock triggers (raising, falling, both) and the like. There are over-comable issues, but it really isn't (or hasn't been) worth anyone's effort.

Second is the OS needs to know about it, otherwise it will randomly shut down the lower power processor when there isn't much work to do, which doesn't give the gains you want. OSes are now working on (and mostly done with) making a process stay on one processor as much as they can for cache reasons. So you might end up with the processor intensive task running on the weak processors while your clock runs on the powerful one. Again, an overcomeable issue, but nobody it really interested.

SMP and AMP

[WillerZ]

AMP has been done, and (possibly) predates SMP.

SMP is an O/S design choice, not a hardware thing. An SMP system is one in which all processors can be given all jobs. Assymetric MP systems are those on which this is not true: for instance Sun's first multiprocessor OS could run user code on all processors, but kernel code (including interrupt handlers) could only run on processor zero.

It's harder to write an SMP kernel than an AMP kernel if you start with a uniprocessor kernel - you don't need to introduce any new locks if you go the AMP route.

As to your proposal, I think dual-core desktops are close enough to make it irrelevant. Sorry.

Phil

Re:How much speed is enough? works good for PVR

[Anonymous Slacker]

I have been using an Epia M10000 board (single Nehemiah processor, previous generation chipset -- mpeg-2 hardware assist) as a PVR/multimedia computer with WinXP Pro for the past year and a half, and it is MORE than adequate.
512MB PC2100 DDR ram, 120+160GB IDE hard drives, Hauppage PVR250 tv-tuner PCI card, 90W power supply (used to be a 60W until I added the 2nd hard drive).
For a system that can handle recording, pausing live TV, video editing, DVD burning, and yes, even WEB BROWSING, text editing, minor picture manipulation and instant messaging, I highly prefer my little shoebox sized system to some power-hungry behemoth that sounds like 747 at takeoff.
I don't use Photoshop or modern 3D gaming on it, because I wouldn't use those period. I normally use the free utilities that come with WinXP and Pinnacle Studio that came with my DVD burner for video editing, because they are all I need. If I really want to screw around with something, I'll usually try running it first on my 450MHz K6-2+ WinME box (which, for reference, IS much slower than my mini-itx system) so I won't risk messing up my properly functional PVR setup.

If someone can build an equivalent system using modern Intel/AMD processors that requires only 2 small fans (40mm on the processor, 60mm case fan), and can operate flawlessly off of a 90W power supply, I'd like to see it (and hear it).

Mini-ITX, at least Via's approach, is not about cramming the most powerful components into a new motherboard form factor. It's about creating a platform that has enough capabilities and utilizes the smallest amount of resources (power, space) to get it done.
For those of us who keep our systems on 24/7 in our bedrooms, low power/noise are a critical factor in deciding our computing platform. I'm thankful to Via for pushing along in the low power/density arena.

yes you can get 1U rackmounts that take two boards

[Anonymous Coward]

2 cpus per board
2 boards per case
42 cases per rack

=168 processors per rack

Re:is anyone using a mini-itx cluster in productio

[blofeld42]

Low power clusters are becoming a bigger topic. Orion multisystems is flogging something similar in a single box, and I think Nasa and Los Alamos have put together some small research clusters aimed at low power. I saw some guys from Los Alamos with a small table top cluster using mini-ITX at ClusterWorld last year. The idea would be to maximize compute power within the restrictions of one 110V AC power circuit (about 20 amps)with no major HVAC infrastructure.

Must be an American...

[Anonymous Coward]

kilo means 1000x

As in 2.5 kiloWatts = 2.5 x 1000 Watts (2500 watts)

or

"We've told the Americans 1 kiloTimes to start teaching their kids the Metric System so that they could catch up to the rest of the world."

Re:Must be an American...

[Anonymous Coward]

He said that his mom's dryer is 1500W.

Why don't you do the math now.

VIA BOARD NOT SHIPPING

[mp3car.com]

According to a direct call to our suppier at VIA this is an engineering sample only. This unit will not be in production until July. We (all hobbyists at http://mp3car.com/) are all very excited to throw this board in our cars. I am glad someone was able to get their hands on one for a test.

Re:VIA Chips Everywhere! RUUUNNNN!

[EXrider]

I remember having bad luck with the VIA chipsets back in the Intel 440BX days, with Intel P2/Celery procs.

But I've always had good luck with 'em on AMD boxes, in fact, that's one of the few chipset choices for AMD boards, since they rarely (only once that I remember, for the first Athlon MPs) make their own chipsets, which was buggy too. I remember calling Tyan's tech support like: Yeah, this sounds crazy but... my board only sees one processor when I boot it up out of the case, and when I put it back in the case it boots up detecting both CPUs. Turns out, through some strange IRQ issue in the bios, if you didn't have a PS/2 mouse plugged in to the board you only got 1 CPU!!

They're better than ALI and that other no-name chipset vendor that I can't think of right now, and I haven't heard anything great about Nvidia's Nforce stuff.

VIA VIA VIA _ REQUEST PLEASE

[Anonymous Coward]

Give me a $70 board with a good looking $40 case with external not fan cooled power supply.

My pvr quest ended when I priced out a Via mini-itx system that would cost $500+

$100+ motherboard
$200 case (this was the breaking point on price)
$200+ memory, hd, and cd-rom drive

Those mini-ITX thingies froma VIA are crap...

[Brane2]

Although these things were cool three years ago, many things have changed since then.

If you absolutely need every cubic cm of space, they might be worth a look. Otherwise, forget it.

They are quite expensive, they have no drivers or some lousy drivers and their speed sucks.

If you can, use flexATX board with some Duron or Athlon or Pentium M or something similar and downlock it to get lower power drain.

It will have comparable price but still be much faster than mini-ITX.

VIA is charging the hell out of their customers.

If I could get some small board with a decent MIPS core and graphics and run conventional Linux (with modern and bug free drivers), I would forget about EPIA in a nanosecond.

Two chicks at the same time? Wait, wrong joke ;-)

[Anonymous Coward]

I couldn't help myself.

Great for limited-use applications ...

[isolationism]

... I have the 1GHz EPIA-M, and it makes a fantastic little digital media box (I run Freevo off of mine in a little Casetronic Travla case that makes it about the size of a VCR). There is some great help out there for how to get it running under Gentoo and several other flavours of Linux; The CLE266's DirectFB support is second, it seems, only to Matrox.

All that said, I don't know why I'd upgrade for that purpose -- Even high-resolution video now plays buttery smooth (ever since I set Freevo/Mplayer to output video using cvidix). I already have an Athlon64 running as a file and development server, and don't want to trade "down" -- even for a dual processor configuration where I don't have to drop my gigabit ethernet.

bargain Pentium M prices!

[iamhassi]

from link:
"Price and Availability

The P620 is available immediately from stock. Single quantity price is $1,800 with a 1.1 GHz CPU."

wow, only 2 grand for a 1.1 ghz!! 2001 here I come!

Re:How much speed is enough? works good for PVR

[iamhassi]

"For those of us who keep our systems on 24/7 in our bedrooms, low power/noise are a critical factor in deciding our computing platform."

Noise I agree with, but power? What do I care if the system in my bedroom corner is sucking down 200w or 90w? Not like that's $50 more a month, or even $10 for that matter. You're talking a couple bucks at most.

Check out the electricity calculator. Enter the watts and your kw/hr and it'll tell u you how you're spending.

At 8 cents a kWh this is what I got:
200w = 38 cents a day... $11.52/mo, $140/yr.
90w = 17 cents/day... $5.18/mo, 63.07/yr

Sorry, that $6 more per month is nothing to cry about, although after seeing that $80 yearly difference I think I will keep downloads going on the laptop from now on and only fire up the desktop when I have serious work to do, especially since my PSU is closer to double that rating so double that cost. Still, doesn't justify buying a laptop for downloading or paying extra for a power-saving system with no processing power.

Not suitable for desktop use

[GunFodder]

Virtually every new desktop PC is going to have the equivalent of 2Ghz of CPU power, if not more. This should be the standard of comparison for any system designated for desktop use. And from what I've seen the big computer makers are getting smarter about cooling design. Many computers I've seen recently are not loud at all. Additionally after pricing out single CPU Via boards I doubt this board will be cheaper than a low end conventional CPU/MB combo.

You are claiming that a 500Mhz machine is perfectly suitable for most desktop tasks.

My first rebuttal is that a desktop CPU must be suitable for ALL desktop tasks. You may think this is just semantics, but it is important to remember that a desktop is the most powerful (if not the only) computer available for any given user. If an app won't run acceptably on a desktop then it isn't available to the user.

My second rebuttal is that some desktop apps won't run acceptably on a 500Mhz machine. Most modern games won't, and believe it or not a huge segment of the PC owning population play some games. My mom brings Photoshop to its knees on a 1Ghz CPU. I spend hours of CPU time decompressing archives, ripping music, and performing other random compute-intensive tasks that are normal tasks for others as well.

So to summarize I think very few people are going to buy a desktop that won't run some of their apps just because it is smaller and quieter than the alternatives. This makes the dual Eden board a poor choice for a desktop system.

Re:Not suitable for desktop use

[Anonymous Coward]

What non specialised (and non gaming) applications won't run on a 1Ghz machine? - or a 500Mhz one for that matter?

I have a friend running a 750Mhz Duron, and she never has a problem, it lets her do everything she wants to do (including play the games she wants to play) and has never been too slow for her.

There's a difference between home desktop and workstation, and you seem to be referring to workstation uses.

There are very few workloads that most people would actually require a 2ghz or faster machine for (except games).
Photo processing is one, and maybe movie editing - but it's still going to be a while before a lot of people are doing much there.

Other than that, pretty much any application a home user uses on their desktop is IO or user bound, not CPU bound.

I have no idea where you got your definition of desktop, but it differs quite substantially from reality.

You'd also better tell Apple that people won't buy a desktop that won't run some of their apps just because it is smaller and quieter than the alternatives, as obviously you're far more informed than those that created the Mac mini.

However, having said all that and now having seen some benchmarks of the chips in question, it is probably very true that they would not be suitable for much in the way of desktop use, as they do appear to be _very_ slow.

Re:Not suitable for desktop use

[toddestan]

For things like Photoshop, I have seen a 500Mhz machine with 512MB of Ram and a decent (Matrox) video card kick the crap out of much faster machines with less than 256MB and Intel graphics. Load up one of those Via boards with enough memory and you'll be fine for most anything but games.

I call bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

I couldn't pull that off on a PIII-733 with the mythtv 0.16 debian packages, at 480x480 with a generic bt848. No way any VIA cpu alone can do that at 800Mhz.

Much happier with a Hauppauge PVR-250...

Re:is anyone using a mini-itx cluster in productio

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, the Archive uses a large cluster and started using racks of 40 VIA's with 4 400GB drives per CPU. It's nice needing only 2 20 AMP circtuits to power 64TB.

Capricorn Tech builds the racks.

http://www.capricorn-tech.com/petabox.html

Hitachi makes the drives.

http://www.hitachigst.com/portal/site/hgst/index .j sp?epi-content=GENERIC&folderPath=%252Fhgst%252Fpr oducts%252Fcasestudies%252F&docName=capricon_tech. htm&beanID=947510294&viewID=content

And they appear to use VIA's.

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?i d= 13408

Would work nice in a 2UX2 case

[Anonymous Coward]

One of these cases would easily hold a a pair of those boards with a LOT of extra room.

2500 watts?

[ErikZ]

hurm, 168 processors = 84 boards, 2500 / 84 equals....

30 watts per board?

Depending on the actual processing power, this sort of thing sounds sweet to set up a mini-cluster.

Re:2500 watts?

[cpghost]

30 watts per board?

That would be about right. It's much more than an EPIA 5000 single fanless CPU board though, which peaks at 10 watt or so (without HDD, add 4 to 12 watt for that). Take 2 1 GHz VIA processors and, say, 512 MB RAM, then 30 watt really makes sense.

Set top box!

[Grendel Drago]

You neglected to mention the part where the device plays DVDs and DivX movies "without a hitch", in the words of the reviewers. There's a lot to be said for the value of a set-top box when you can make them about as small as a DVD player, and when you can make them entirely solid-state, playing ripped DVDs off network storage. Mmm, solid-state.

--grendel drago

Re:How much speed is enough? works good for PVR

[ErikZ]

Unless you use a large passive heat sink, how do you think you're going to dissapate that extra 110w of heat?

I would of gone with a mini-itx for my home server box, except that all the SATA drives give off a lot of heat. Normal external drive enclosures use small noisy high speed fans.

So I built a normal PC using the Super Lanboy case, which uses 120mm fans. Plus a quiet power supply that uses a 120mm fan. I don't have to run them anywhere near full speed to get good airflow across the drives. Reasonbly quiet and sits in my bedroom.

Also doubles as a nightlight.

Re:How much speed is enough? works good for PVR

[ArbitraryConstant]

-laptop drives have a tendency to die a lot more than their desktop counterparts, it's best not to run them continuously

-your desktop power supply does not run at capacity all the time, it needs that to get it through surges in demand

-I don't know about the MP VIA boards, but the UP VIA boards are VERY cheap. You're not paying more for them, you're paying less

-for something like a small server or firewall, they're great. Those don't usually need lots of CPU power, so something smaller/cheaper/quieter is preferable, all else being equal

Winamp 5.

[Grendel Drago]

When I had to format my main partition and reinstall Windows 2000, I considered Winamp 3. It had this really nifty multiple-playlist feature, and a neato browser that would let you put filters on your entire music collection, and coax generated playlists out of that. I thought that was a big improvement over the single-playlist model that Winamp 2 had.

But, ah! I was running an Athlon T-Bird 1000MHz with 512MB of memory. Winamp 2 comes up in under two seconds when the system is fully loaded with Gimp and Audacity and twenty Firefox tabs and whatnot. Winamp 3 takes closer to ten seconds to start up, even when nothing at all is running.

So that's why I still run Winamp 2, and am unlikely to change it.

Also why I run Media Player Classic. (Well, for that, I won't complain about the improved error messages for missing codecs. Sheesh, Microsoft, could you be any less helpful in the regular WMP?)

I will say, though, that in the switchover from the 95 series (98, ME) to the NT series (2k, XP), single apps were a lot less capable of crashing the whole shebang. I just dread that I'll ever have to actually move onto something other than 2k on the Windows box.

--grendel drago

Re:Winamp 5.

[modecx]

I just dread that I'll ever have to actually move onto something other than 2k on the Windows box.

Me too. I've kinda resolved to myself that Win2k will be the last version of Windows that I ever install on one of my own machines... If the software that I use eventually requires me to upgrade to Win2.01k or whatever, then I guess I'll have to... If it's available for Mac or Linux/whatever, I'll be all over it.

Even looking at anything>XP just pisses me off on a subconscious level.

Re:How much speed is enough? works good for PVR

[John Miles]

What do I care if the system in my bedroom corner is sucking down 200w or 90w?

It adds up. I just discovered (via a forum post) a "PowerSave" feature I didn't know my Laserjet 4si had. It cuts the printer's standby power drain from 220W down to 75W.

Not knowing about that feature has cost me about $1,000 in electricity over ten years. I am starting to wonder about my habit of leaving a half-dozen PCs running 24/7 all over the house...

Mini-Itx Blades?

[thed00d]

Interesting that they've expanded to a dual-processor setup with mini-itx. I suspect (and hope) that the next thing we see from the mini-itx world are mini-itx based blade-based computers. Something set at a price point at under $500 per blade w/ a 120G SATA HD, and 512M of memory. Would be great for the in-expensive server market. But then again, what do I know...

Excellent Server platform

[tacocat]

I use a single Epie 533 for my mail and web server. It's great. It does everything I could need with room to spare and at

When I have a power outage, the UPS runs for several hours... Time enough for me to casually shut it down.

With a dual CPU, this would make an excellent server platform. The video is typically poor for many functions, but a cheap video card would do well for this type of box. At least you could get some 3D support.

Don't scoff at this too much, it's surprisingly good at performance if you aren't GUI dependent.

Re:yay

[Anonymous Coward]

JEW PHAIL EAT!

shipping? Don't think so. Plus a VIA warning

[gigi]

Via claims it's shipping?
notice - there is no price anywhere,
nobody even has any photos from 2005.
All the photos are from 2004.

Beware of these problems with VIA CPUs:
I tried to install SuSE Linux 9.1 on it this January (2005), and it kept failing on the 'grub' stage. The reason? VIA chips identify themselves as 686-class, but they don't implement all the instructions from the 686 set. If you have the same problem, instead of SuSE, you should install Fedora.

Re:VIA Chips Everywhere! RUUUNNNN!

[toddestan]

From my experience, you'll be fine so long as you don't try to use that single PCI slot :)

It really depends on the memory bus

[kriston]

Back when it was easy to get Socket 370 VIA C3 processors I built several computers based on them between 600 and 1000 MHz with bus clocks at 100 and 133 MHz. I found that even the 667 and 800 MHz C3 CPUs at 133 MHz bus had significant performance gains over the 100 MHz bus counterparts at the same rated internal clock speed. I finally settled on 800 MHz at 133 MHz bus. The systems are faster than the 1000 MHz at 100 MHz bus. I stopped caring around the time the Ezra-T came out because then the EPIAs started coming out.

SiSoft Sandra clocks the 800 MHz at 133 MHz as equivalent to a 600 MHz Pentium 3 but the memory bandwitch is much, much higher by about 30%. That's enough to make an integrated video motherboard a perfect desktop computer for web, office applications, and MAME gaming. For $25 per CPU that's not terribly bad! Some of the motherboards I got from Tigerdirect.com were $30 with embedded C3 processor for 667 MHa and 800 MHz at 130 MHz bus. Not terrible at all.

If you're not talking about economical computing then look elsewhere.

Mac Mini

[mrdisco99]

How long before we start seeing these inside hacked up Mac Minis? Mini-ITX fits inside one of those, doesn't it?

Re:Mac Mini

[memoriesofgreen]

Not Long
http://www.kevinrose.com/index.php/weblog/comments /191/

Re:How much speed is enough? works good for PVR

[Anonymous Coward]

Just switch it off completely. It's not like you print stuff all the time and are too lazy to push the damn buttonevery once in a while.

Re:How much speed is enough? works good for PVR

[rhuntley12]

Could get into the enviroment and how every little bit helps, with coal power being around and all.

But what about if I'm running one downstairs and upstairs? I currently have 2 xbox media players on both my TV's. So that is $12 per month, or $160 a year saved. That is an extra case of non natty ice beer a month...

Re:VIA Chips Everywhere! RUUUNNNN!

[cpghost]

Am I the only one that avoids VIA chipset products like the plague?

I'm using EPIA 5000 boards with VIA C3 CPUs (fanless) for a big pool of diskless FreeBSD workstations. They run fine so far. The main problems with their chipset are:

1. The VIA C3 is a i686, but it doesn't support the optional! CMOV instruction, which gcc erroneously assumes being ubiquitous on i686. This gcc bug is not really VIAs fault, but it makes installing Linux distros that are precompiled for i686 impossible.
2. The VIA VT6102 Rhine II 10/100BaseTX often loses some frames, which is quite pesky in a diskless NFS setup. It's not really that bad, and NFS can be configured with 1k UDP frames or to use TCP directly.
3. The original EPIA 5000 boards have a problem driving two SDRAM sticks. Newer DDR-based boards have no problems there.

But dispite these shortcomings, EPIA boards are great.

Re:How much speed is enough? works good for PVR

[cpghost]

Reasonbly quiet and sits in my bedroom.

Once you're used to fanless systems like EPIA boards (with cold power, a.k.a. 12 V DC-DC converter), you'll be really spoiled, and wouldn't want to go back to even 120mm fans! I sleep much better with zero-noise computers.

I dont trust VIA...

[teklob]

had numerous problems with my asus amd mobo with via chipset, and nothing from all the similar ones i own with nvidia chipsets

Re:How much speed is enough? works good for PVR

[ErikZ]

Um. Ok, so how does your "zero noise" computer power and cool a 4 drive RAID array?

Re:How much speed is enough? works good for PVR

[phsdv]

[rant]It is more than just your electricity bill! The more energy you use the more oil, coal and atomic power will be used. Your electricity is porbably not generated by oil, but it is about a mind set. If you start thinking about energy is some thing limited and not only money things might change. I just read in the news that oil demand is up, basically due to larger demand of USA and China. Creating more and more dependencies on countries like Irak, Iran, and other large oil producing countries.

It is up to YOU, do you want to be depended on those countries for your life style? If not, stop thinking about the few (tens) of bucks you pay per month for gass or electricity and think about where that energy is coming from.

For example switch of your home server and let your web server be provided by an ISP where you can have a more efficient use of the cpu/energy. Many do ofer mysql and other nice to have tools too.

Buy a car that has a milage of 30 mpg or better. There is really no use of a car that consume more than that. Why do you need 200+ horse power, while that speed limit is 65mph anyway? My 130hp can do 120mph easily and not consume more than 15mpg at that speed. At a more normal speed it uses 30mpg. (if you want to know it is a 2.2 liter turbo (HDI) diesel) And I still have about the same room inside as I used to have in my Explorer.

I can improve on many things myself, and I will. In short, think about where the energy is coming from and if you want to depend on that. And I even did not start about the environment, there I know many people do not care about that....[/rant]

Re:How much speed is enough? works good for PVR

[Anonymous Coward]

Well my car has well over 300 horses, will do over 150mph and gets 30mpg at normal highway speeds. I love America!!!

Re:How much speed is enough? works good for PVR

[Anonymous Coward]

Good for you.
To bad there is no place where you can drive 150 mph in the USA.... and I mean on normal roads without have a cop pulling you over within the minute.

Re:How much speed is enough? works good for PVR

[cpghost]

You could move that computer outside of your bedroom, and use a silent diskless workstation to access it. Theoretically, you could just move the array outside, using a specialized SCSI bus extender solution (mostly fiber), but that would be far too expensive for such a simple home setup.

Re:How much speed is enough? works good for PVR

[Anonymous Coward]

It is all about how quickly you *get* to 65! Top speed will never be realized by most drivers.

Besides, in Michigan the speed limit is typically closer to 80 or so (as governed by the morons who drive "slowly" in front of me.)

Re:How much speed is enough? works good for PVR

[iamhassi]

" Unless you use a large passive heat sink, how do you think you're going to dissapate that extra 110w of heat?

read what I wrote:
"Noise I agree with, but power?"

Re:How much speed is enough? works good for PVR

[iamhassi]

"It adds up. I just discovered (via a forum post) a "PowerSave" feature..."

yeah but we're not talking about a powersaving feature, we're talking about having 4ghz vs 0.5ghz. That's a huge difference. Now if you're just checking email with both the systems then your wasting, but if you're encoding DivX movies you need the extra mhz.

besides, someone had a good point:
"your desktop power supply does not run at capacity all the time, it needs that to get it through surges in demand"

The only difference between a VIA system and a p4 system is the processor. The hd, video, etc are all sucking the same amount of power, and that p4 isn't going to be sucking maximum power 24/7, when you're just checking email you're not going to be at 90% utilization. Sure it'll use more wattage than a Via, but it's unlikely it'll be 200w vs 90w all the time like in my example, I'd bet the power consumption would be closer to about even given everything being the same except for a Via CPU vs a P4. Does anyone exactly how much more a P4 sucks down at idle vs a Via CPU? I'm betting it's not over 50w, probably not even that dramatic.

check this out: EPIA Power Simulator tells you the power consumption of EPIA boards with different accessories. At idle with a high-end video card, CDROM drive and 3.5" hd a EPIA 5000 got nearly 90w. They also have a p4 you can play with proving larger power consumption, but I found this interesting: over at Anandtech they did a review showing that a AMD64 3500+ 90nm core only sucks down 86w at idle. 86w! That's a full system too. The Tech Report did a similar test and got 113w from a similar cpu. That's still damn good.

So if what these sites are saying is correct these boards really don't save any power when the PCs are idle compared to 3+ ghz AMD64 90nm core processors, and very little compared to P4s. Good to know.