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Ubuntu and UserLinux to Combine?
An anonymous reader submits "With all the noise about Ubuntu, and no sarge release in sight, we haven't heard much from UserLinux in recent times. Even Bruce Perens has admitted that the "lack of a Debian release is becoming a critical problem". Now, Ubuntu has invited UserLinux to combine forces. More distro consolidation -- without a corporate buyout in sight!"
The first one out with a working product tends to win the market, as long as their product is the best. And since UserLinux stagnated in a lot of trivial discussion, Ubunto got the one up on us..
That being said, I believe that the collaberation of the two products will be a great support to the cause!!!!
"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." G.W.Bush
i personally think it is a very good move. Combining forces with UserLinux will not only increase its userbase but will allow Ubuntu to conform to the standards that UserLinux was established on. Ubuntu is a great distro that is good for the desktop and the server alike. You just got to love the apt-get. Visit Lafayette Linux Users Group at http://lug.lafayette.edu
One person posts a suggestion on a discussion list. No one has yet responded positively or negatively. Ten minutes later it is a story on Slashdot?
I'm going to post somewhere that I'm taking over IBM. Let's see if "RevMike to take over IBM" becomes a story in the next ten minutes!
"If this goes on, there will be credibility for Debian or Debian-derived distributions in the enterprise setting."
How many times have Windows releases been pushed back? Microsoft has credibility. It seems Debian is working towards the same credibility.
Ubuntu and UserLinux
I give you... UberLinux.
The coolest voice ever.
UserLinux? Wtf is that? The problem with all these desktop linux distros is that I never have any idea what the various merits and flaws of each are. The old standbys like 'drake and SuSE are easy, but with all these new ones sprouting up who can keep track?
Vector = old hardware.
Ubuntu = Debian unstable repacked as usable. Free CDs in the mail.
Yoper = fast, semi-friendly desktop linux.
but wtf are all the others? Ark? User? MEPIS? Ninnle (just kidding - where did that troll come from though)?
Maybe it should be Ubuntu assimilates the few users of United Linux.
I asked Jeff Waugh about this a few months ago on irc and he had said that Mark Shuttleworth and Bruce Perens had talked before, but nothing about a merger.
I think there's a natural synergy here with Bruce Perens being an "industry insider" and Shuttleworth having deep pockets.
And at this point in linux history I don't think a little consolidation of efforts is a bad thing.
AFAIK GNOME is 1st class citizen of Ubuntu. Will there be re-run of GNONE vs KDE
sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop
Voila', first class KDE on Ubuntu. It works like a charm, switched it to default yesterday - mostly because it's faster than Gnome and konqueror rocks.
Save your wrists today - switch to Dvorak
I thought UserLinux already decided the same thing?
"lack of a Debian release is becoming a critical problem"
I think at this point it's safe to say this isn't a bug, but rather a feature.
"Debian users take pride in the fact that their distribution is always several releases behind the latest version of the kernel, but makes up for that by being more difficult to install and use."
From here.
Ubuntu is Gnome. Kubuntu is a community run effort to bring KDE to the Ubuntu platform.
I think Kubuntu has the opportunity to be big. I was running Ubuntu since about October or so, switching to Hoary about a month ago, but yesterday switched to Gentoo and KDE just to see what's happening in the KDE world after a couple years of running Gnome. Gnome isn't exactly zippy even on fast machines. I love Gnome, but KDE 3.4 is a freaking speed demon.
Another perception of mine, which may be totally incorrect, is that UserLinux is a project that failed. Would any Slashdotters who actually use UserLinux like to share their counterexamples?
It's like the joke that goes, "I don't have a drinking problem. I drink. I fall down. No problem." Generic Debian is doing fine on servers. People who run non-x86 architectures are presumably happy that Debian is continuing to support them. Ubuntu is apparently doing fine on the x86 desktop. Many desktop users (including me) run testing, not stable, and therefore don't have a problem with the slow time scale for releasing the next stable.
So what's the problem?
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When Bruce announced UserLinux, I liked what he talked about, but I was doubtful of his ability to gather a working community. The desktop Linux I'm using (when I can easily) is Ubuntu. There doesn't seem to be any misalignment in the two distros' underlying goals and philosophies. The main difference is that Bruce isn't a multi-millionaire who can invest a few strategically placed dollars in a small number of developers, infrastructure projects, and PR. This makes the difference for spreading the awareness of Ubuntu's excellence.
I think it would be a great idea - I tried ubuntu and now it is all I use - hardware detection is second to none - can't wait till next release - got my apt-get ready - I hope unbutu sticks around for a long time - I plan on not doing another iso install ever - use debian on my sparc sun blade 100 at work - will never do another sun cdrom upgrade on that one either.
if ubuntu puts out a sparc edition I will get it on my sunblade in a snap.
I would like to see..Ubuntu replace Debian as the base system for many of the current debian distros out there. I think with Ubuntu could promote other distros to focus work on the application and desktop layers while keeping better package compatibility.
This could be what UnitedLinux attempted to be.
No dis-respect to Debian or it's developers. I believe Debian as a base could have been managed better to take advantage of the many advances the "Deb based distros" have made.
I am not a professional developer or Software Manager so take this opinion as you will....
no sig yet
We now have 4 paid editors at Technocrat.net and we're running Slashdot for Grown-ups. Please try it out.
Now, about UserLinux: Debian will resolve its problems. We're trying to help. And the project will go on. There will be a commercially-supported UserLinux release about a day after the Debian release. There is nothing else but the Debian release on the critical path.
I have been acquainted with Mark Shuttleworth since the early days of Debian and fully support Ubuntu. UL will borrow from Ubuntu where appropriate. But UL seeks to do all development directly within the Debian organization, in order to achieve maximum transparency and public participation (a better explanation is in the UserLinux white paper). So, where UL borrows from Ubuntu, the result will be checked into Debian.
I would have liked everything to go a year faster, but I'm convinced that the UL rationale is still valid and is important to the future of GNU/Linux.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
So I downloaded this newfangled Ubuntu distro, fired up VMWare and started installing. Installed everything, launched Gnome and internationalization is nowhere to be found! Not just that, there's no keyboard layout chooser either. If you speak French or German or Russian, you're required to RTFM intensively.
I'd like to remind you, folks, that it's year 2005 we're talking about here. Every god damn Windows app can accept unicode, and Windows itself can accept any language in five mouse clicks. I do realize Windows is $300, however, Fedora Core and SuSE offer these capabilities out of the box.
For me that's what differentiates the work of professionals from work of amateurs. Sorry, Ubuntu folks, you gotta have full support of languages other than English these days. Majority of the earth's population doesn't speak, read or write the language of your distro.
Right here.
This guy is way out there
UserLinux answers "no" (in European).
--
make install -not war
I've heard so much about Ubuntu for so long and being a long time Debian user I felt I had to try it. Allow me to be the lone voice of descent here but I really think this has a long way to go from becoming a user oriented desktop. I think what Ubuntu gives you is sane defaults, faster releases, and tested unstable, this is great for a regular Debian user who has to configure Debian to make it more useful for desktop use, but for a regular computer user or even a new computer user I still don't think it's anywhere near ready. Synaptic is still too complex a procedure for average users to install software with, a normal user wants to click "Software to do my taxes" and have it ready, not struggle with package management. The system administrative tools are still so immature I find myself constantly retreating back to hand configuration, if the install made a mistake configuring hotplug and it slows down my boot process there was no way to disable that from my bootprocess graphically. A default install will wipe a user's drive unless they know how to repartitian a drive on their own. Which makes me worried to ever give an inexperienced user a CD.
For experienced users the one thing that really annoyed me was the complete lack of GCC in the default install. They had time to package a windows version of openoffice on the install cd and didn't deem it necessary to have basic development tools. When I boot Knoppix I can compile an entire LFS system while running on the CD alone, I can't do that with a default install of Ubuntu.
Having said all that there are things Ubuntu is doing right. I like the disabling of Root and enabling the user to do more with the desktop. I can't remember how many times I get pissed off by Debian when I can't do something necessary like configuring a printer, or looking up my IP, without become root. I like the small install size, though what is up with all the python tools? I like that they package only the most useful desktop programs in default install thought I wished they'd give you more options to add programs on the default install. And the hardware detection for a Debian distro is one of the things every Debian user pray for.
Finally...a case of consolidation of efforts. Now if we could only get the GNOME/KDE factions to combine, we could set an example for the rest of the community who is hell-bent on forking and reinventing the wheel every time they have a beef with some dev. Right now, just running KDE, a GNOME app, Firefox, and OpenOffice at once loads up four entire sets of widgets to get things done. Seriously, think of how many times a single string class gets invented between those four projects.
I know the "choice" argument, but I think combining efforts would, in the end, provide a better choice.
on http://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/ it looks like debian stable isn't going to be done till at least 10/05 at best or 01/06 at worst. Jesus how long has it been. I really love debian, But the longer you leave the stable distribution, well stable, the longer it gets behind testing/unstable and makes the upgrade to the new stable unimaginably worse.
I always try to keep to stable, but I recently had to swith one server to testing coz I needed some updated programs which could not run under stable. To say it was a mess is a major understatement. It trashed my ldap and my mail configurations, the ldap had to be restored from ldif's! Heck the only thing that stayed working was NFS which was generating warnings.
I really think testing should be kept at a "just about ready to go stable" stage, whereas stable should be "run this for a year (or whatever is deamed to be reasonable), it won't change".
I find that UserLinux is itself more of a Standardization group over a distro provider. I feel its more likely that Ubuntu will get some interesting development from such a relationship. I feel that Ubuntu has already proven itself amongst normal users , by normal I mean run of the mill standard Linux users (if there is such a thing called that). That be said, I feel also that Ubuntu is alsmost safe enough to put a non Linux user in front of it and with some nominal instruction.
I do aggree with prior opinions stating the non existence of certain packages(GCC and so forth), but thats easily remedied by a handy apt-get call. Of course its the opinion of some that you shouldnt have to do this, but thats a half a dozeon of one and six of the other fight, something not easily addressed.
Of course I think the biggest complaint about Ubuntu is the good old KDE Gnome fight. Of course this is why Kubuntu exists, have to make users happy I guess. I lead a relatively "Cholestoral Free" life myself.
"God of Rock, thank you for this chance to kick ass. "
I don't want to stray too far off topic, but they will probably go over how they do things and package their distros... this is a great chance for them to make a subtle but important change... PLEASE embrace LSB and try to make it stronger. If Linux could have a strong and comprehensive core platform it would solve ALOT of problems. LSB in it's current form is very very weak. I think many distros make it optional... only distro I've seen in awhile with it as an upfront option is Mandrake. A brief rundown of things a strong LSB would help: - Finding things. Where did distro X stick important app Y? No more! - Driver support. No need to greatly complicate engineering a driver for Linux by accounting for the various ways distros place and configure things. - Ease of use. Take a Linux newbie and swap distros on them. Odds are they won't be happy when some things are mysteriously gone or put elsewhere or changed around. I realize Linux by it's very nature tends to have endless variations... but driver support and familiarity would essentially "force by choice" many distros to comply if they want added userbase and drivers, etc.
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So using any words in any way derived from, related to, or part of the German language is now "nazi jargon"? It's not like someone suggested they call it "UberLinux: The Final Solution". Would it similarly be "tasteless and flirting with nazi jargon" if some Germans put out a native Linux distro called "DeutschLinux"? Because I seem to remember hitler saying that all the time too.
The Farewell Tour II
and you are absolutely correct in pointing this out.
Debian provides an outstanding foundation for the greater Linux community. Debian's contribution cannot be overstated as Ubuntu and their ilk are little more than cake decorators in comparison.
Personally I'm offended when parasitic tier two re-distributions in their collective maggotry begin whining that the host isn't succulent enough. Clearly the Linux community is at no loss for psuedo developers hard at work individualizing their splash screens, backgrounds and icon sets while cherry picking the source tree.
This is not to discount the value added efforts of others, including Ubuntu, but I've read quite enough in the disparaging remarks department today. Failure to acknowledge and respect the importance and overall contribution of the Debian team including the relative unimportance of release dates is foolish, counter productive and frankly, dangerous.
The next release of Debian will occur when it is ready.
If it wasn't for the fact that I would have to spend a couple of entire days fixing a different distribution if i install it, every day I use my Debian box, is every day that I get more and more pissed off about how stupid it is.
apt-get sounded great, but if you don't use "unstable" or newer, you have basically unusable software, if you need to keep up to date on anything. And the package dependencies are a living farking hell. I love "apt-get install *someprogram*" and it tells me it needs to download 300MB of completely unrelated junk to make something work.
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