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A Perspective on Microsoft's Shared Source

Masa writes "ONLamp has an insightful article by Stephen R. Walli about Microsoft Shared Source Initiative and some thoughts, what it would really mean if Microsoft would open-source their operating system. The article gives a nice perspective on the Shared Source Initiative and what it is meant to be. It also shows that even if it might look that Microsoft doesn't understand the value of open source, there actually are some projects under the OSI-approved licenses, for example the WiX Toolset, which is a good example of a successful open source project by Microsoft."

179 comments

  1. It would mean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny
    what it would really mean if Microsoft would open-source their operating system
    It would mean that hell froze over and that monkeys are flying out of my ass.
    1. Re:It would mean... by SeventyBang · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but it's the OSI...the OSI!

      Remember the Six Million Dollar Man? Oscar Goldman ran the OSI.

      If he sanctioned this, would that be good enough? I mean, hey, he was a righteous dude.

      Hell freezing over? I think it would be someone figured out how to light a match on a cake of soap.

    2. Re:It would mean... by bcmm · · Score: 1

      It would be the end for them, because someone would make a much better binary-compatible OS. The source code for the win32 API would make Windows redundant.

      --
      # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i llama
      Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
    3. Re:It would mean... by philwx · · Score: 1

      IMO, it would mean multiple variations of Windows would spawn, and then those variations would spawn variations, and so on, and so on... And these variations would not necessarily be compatible with each other. Then some company would create an operating system that was closed source, and tout its ability to stay consistent. And people would flock to that OS. Eventually there would be maltontent over features, implementations, monopolizing, etc. Then the whole process would start over again.

    4. Re:It would mean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
      It also shows that even if it might look that Microsoft doesn't understand the value of open source

      or maybe it shows that MS *DOES* understand the value of open source, and has found it lacking. Me, I generally find that the most successful company ever probably knows what they are doing when it comes to business. The /. tuesday quarterbacking, IMO, doesnt have a firm grasp on the value (or lack thereof) of open source; being a buzzword does not assure success.

    5. Re:It would mean... by ZeroZen · · Score: 1

      Have to disagree.

      If they showed other people the source code to windows, their team of lawyers would swoop down on anyone using their code and take everything they have and ever will have or create.

      Just because they show the source to people doesn't mean it's not theirs, and that it's not copywrited by them and thousands upon thousands of patented processes don't disappear.

      It would mean the end of windows, for the most part. As others have mentioned, binary compatablility would be trivial and everyone would be able to support them, copywrite or not.

      That is, if they also opened directx ;) then we'd be talking.

    6. Re:It would mean... by hazah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Open Source isn't a "buzzword". Success is assured by people.

    7. Re:It would mean... by philwx · · Score: 0

      If they showed other people the source code to windows, their team of lawyers would swoop down on anyone using their code and take everything they have and ever will have or create.

      Oh yeah?

      From wikipedia:

      Open source refers to projects that are open to the public and which draw on other projects that are freely available to the general public.

      I was responding to the "hypothetical question" about Microsoft "open sourcing" their stuff, a really huge 'what if.' Not the "shared source" idea they are actually talking about. You disagree with something, but it wasn't what I was writing about.

    8. Re:It would mean... by Joss+the+Red · · Score: 1

      How about dipping the soap in liquid nitrogen so it isn't so mushy? Or if something like Lava (the soap) is allowed how about we make something even more extreme, with so much grit it acts like sandpaper?

      If you don't like those ideas then how about a new type of match that has a bit of sandpaper in a loop around the head connected loosely enough to let it rub round in a circle, lighting the match, then being burned up in the process.

      Come on, man, give me a hard one :)

    9. Re:It would mean... by SeventyBang · · Score: 1

      But you are changing the rules: Match, cake of soap. What you are doing is no longer a match or a cake of soap. That would be "a cake of soap treated with liquid nitrogen". Were someone to ask you how you did it and you said, "Just a match and a cake of soap." what you are proposing would be lying by omission.

  2. In case of /.ing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Perspectives on the Shared Source Initiative
    by Stephen R. Walli
    03/24/2005

    Nat Torkington and I were discussing Microsoft's Shared Source Initiative not long ago. I left Microsoft in early December and had spent the last three years directly involved in various aspects of Shared Source work. The more we discussed his questions, the more we realized others probably shared the same questions. This article came from that realization.

    Microsoft began pushing the idea of "shared source" a few years ago as a way to talk about source code sharing exercises they continue to develop in the face of open source software practices. The idea holds the premise that they will share the source code of their software appropriately with appropriate audiences. Free and open source software was happening all around them. They were certainly thinking about the phenomena all the way back to the original Halloween document in October 1998. After talking to many of their customers, they discovered that many Windows developers did want access to read code and debug against it, but not necessarily modify the code. There was even an early university program for academic access, but this early program was not particularly popular. By Spring 2001, Microsoft needed to have an active position on the open source phenomena, and thus launched the Shared Source Initiative.

    I will not discuss the past executive miscommunication and misconception, or the marketing rhetoric, but will look at what Shared Source is and some of the challenges open source presents to a large publicly traded company.

    First, recognize that Shared Source isn't one program with one license. Shared Source is an umbrella program for all source sharing programs from Microsoft. Any time Microsoft makes source code available through a program, it brands it as part of the Shared Source Initiative, the marketing machine has the message to deliver, and a new program ends up on the Microsoft Shared Source website. These licenses span the spectrum from very locked down, look-but-don't-touch licenses to licenses approved by the OSI, and everything in between.

    Most people imagine Shared Source as an avenue to open sourcing Microsoft's key product assets and are disappointed when they see restrictive licenses and difficult eligibility requirements. It's easy to assume that clearly Microsoft doesn't "get it" with open source, or more deliberately is generating confusion in the marketplace. Microsoft has a breadth of software assets and artifacts. The sharing program eligibility and licensing reflects the value of the software asset to shareholders. On one end of this software spectrum are the narrow-eligibility, high-liability programs around the Windows and Office core revenue generating assets (e.g. Government Security Program, Enterprise Source License Program, etc.) There is tightly controlled access to the code, with restrictions on what people can do with it (often read or debug or limited modification without redistribution rights). The penalties for license breach are high.

    These restricted "sharing" programs are tied to the core revenue generating products for the company. (Take a look at the recent quarterly SEC filing. Go to the last page on revenues. Add Client plus Server and Tools and compare that to the total.) The responsibility of the executives to shareholders kicks in pretty quickly. They must take a worst-case, conservative view of the risks (brand damage, legal, revenue stagnation, engineering costs). They must have some form of hard data to support the premise that the more they open the source code base then the more revenue will grow. With these key revenue generating software assets, the company is essentially caught between the shareholders and customer base.
    Opening Windows

    Related Reading
    Understanding Open Source and Free Software Licensing

    Understanding Open Source and Free Software Licensing
    By Andrew M. St. Laurent
    Table of Contents
    Index
    Sample Chapter

    Read Online--Saf

    1. Re:In case of /.ing by chromatic · · Score: 1

      Please don't republish copyrighted material without permission. We have a nice web cluster and plenty of bandwidth. We handle several referrals from Slashdot every month.

  3. what it would mean by pestario · · Score: 0, Troll

    what it would really mean if Microsoft would open-source their operating system

    it would be renamed to linux

    --
    :n
    1. Re:what it would mean by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what it would really mean if Microsoft would open-source their operating system

      it would be renamed to linux
      Just because it's open doesn't mean it's no longer a buggly bloated mess. It'd take a decade for open source programmers to clean up the spaghetti and by the time they were done it would probably feel nothing like the Windows we have now.

    2. Re:what it would mean by hey · · Score: 1

      Yes, look what happened when Netscape was open sourced. They had to rewrite the code to get Mozilla/Firefox.

    3. Re:what it would mean by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      You would find out how much linux is in windows.

    4. Re:what it would mean by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 1

      Yes, look what happened when Netscape was open sourced. They had to rewrite the code to get Mozilla/Firefox.

      And that meant no more crashing on nested-tables. Nestcape was dying already, it HAD to be done.

  4. When... by TheKidWho · · Score: 3, Funny

    Microsoft Open Sources Windows, its a sign of the antichrist coming.

    1. Re:When... by iamacat · · Score: 3, Funny

      Actually it's more like a sign of antitrust coming

  5. If.. by Turn-X+Alphonse · · Score: 0, Troll

    If Windows became open source we would see £100 knock down on the price of every single PC. This would then make more people buy PCs, which would help the whole industry except Microsoft. It would encourage growth in hardware and softcore could follow suite nicely.

    But hey this is old Bill here, we all know Microsoft is the whole industry in his eyes (with a little brother called Intel). So hey he's not going to do this.

    --
    I like muppets.
    1. Re:If.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why would Windows being open source make PCs less expensive? Open source != free.

    2. Re:If.. by Trurl's+Machine · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If Windows became open source we would see £100 knock down on the price of every single PC. This would then make more people buy PCs, which would help the whole industry except Microsoft. It would encourage growth in hardware and softcore could follow suite nicely.

      Absolutely not. You seem to confuse the most obvious difference between "free software" and "open source". "Open source" means just that I allow you to take a peek into the source code of my application - but still I have everything under my firm control. "Free Software" means not just that I will show you my source code, but also I will allow you to do basically anything you want to do, provided that the results will also be distributed as Free Software. So opening source to the entire Microsoft Windows would not necessarily means a price drop - the source code could still be protected by proprietary copyright law. Of course, you could violate the copyright and compile your own copy - but then again, you can pirate MS Windows as well.

      Check Microsoft's own website for their own description of Shared Source. A brief quote: Like the CSD (Commercial Software Development) model, the SSI (Shared Source Initiative) rewards innovators for their research and development efforts by protecting their valuable IP rights in the source code they produce. .

    3. Re:If.. by cptgrudge · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Not disagreeing with you...

      Look at your post.

      If Windows became open source we would see £100 knock down on the price of every single PC.

      This would then make more people buy PCs, which would help the whole industry except Microsoft.

      Microsoft isn't going to do anything that won't help Microsoft. They have an obligation to shareholders to increase profits and market share (dominating as they are). Of course, this is only the case with their current business model.

      Now, if they switched to a service contract type business model and open sourced Windows, things might be different. Think of those people that still have Windows 98. What if they had been paying, say, $10-$15 a year since then for support? Microsoft would have made more on them than the customer's initial purchase of Windows (assuming an OEM installed Windows, not Retail).

      The customer doesn't have to get support, but lots of people pirate Windows anyway. Might as well release it to everyone and work on *really* good tech support.

      Maybe I'm simplifying things too much. I'm sure someone will correct me.

      --
      Qualitas edurus commercium, nullus penitus net rimor, nullus deus beneficium
    4. Re:If.. by thepoch · · Score: 4, Funny

      A tip... when posting on slashdot, do not watch porn... especially hardware porn...

    5. Re:If.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ya, right. Major manufactures pay somewhere around $30 for Windows on new machines. I doubt they mark up the overall box much more then that. In situations where you can order Windows or Linux on the same machine, prices are very close (within $40, from what I have personally seen).
      Not much savings there.

    6. Re:If.. by SashaM · · Score: 4, Informative

      Umm, no, actually it is you who seems to be confused.

      Here's a summary (from the page linked above):

      Open source doesn't just mean access to the source code. The distribution terms of open-source software must comply with the following criteria:

      1. Free Redistribution - must be allowed.
      2. Source Code - must be available.
      3. Derived Works - must allow redistribution under the same license.
      4. ...
    7. Re:If.. by jeroendekkers · · Score: 3, Informative

      You are confusing Shared Source with Open Source. Shared Source means that you can peek at the source, if Microsoft likes you, you are willing to sign a NDA, etc.

      Open Source also means that you can look at the source, but much more than that. You are also allowed to run the program for every purpose, modify it the way you want, and distribute the program and modified versions of the program. See the Open Source definition: http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php

      Term "Open Source" is confusing, and Microsoft only adds to that confusing with their "Shared Source" (that wasn't on purpose of course). That's why I prefer talking about Free Software, which has a very nice definition at http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html and doesn't give the impression that being able to look at the source code would be enough.

      The difference between Free Software and Open Source is of political nature and the question of what you want to emphasize (a good development model versus freedom). But if you talk about the licenses, they are very similar. I only know of 2 or 3 licenses which qualify as Open Source but not as Free Software.

    8. Re:If.. by squiggleslash · · Score: 3, Informative
      Why this is modded at +5 I'm not sure. What you describe as Open Source is actually what is considered "Shared Source."

      Open Source is, from a legal point of view, practically identical to Free Software. The group of people who created the OSI intended the term be used to "sell" Free Software as a concept to businesses by extolling the virtues of a community development process enabled by licenses that gave developers free use of the code created.

      While Open Source, in practice, is less about freedom and more about methodologies (sometimes to the detriment of freedom, unlike the FSF, the OSI doesn't urge developers to avoid licenses that are technically free but actually create genuine practical problems), you most certainly are granted more than just the right to see the code.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    9. Re:If.. by estes_grover · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      You seem to confuse the most obvious difference ...

      Umm, no, actually it is you who seems to be confused.

      Your both wrong. It's a floor polish *and* a dessert.

    10. Re:If.. by DaHat · · Score: 1, Troll

      You are quoting just one definition of open source, there are many.

      Microsoft's Shared Source initiative is a form of open source, just not an OSI approved one... which at the end up the day means nothing.

      The definition you quoted is more that of the contemporary view of free (as in speech) software as it pretty well discounts BSD and MIT style licensed software.

    11. Re:If.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great idea to make money - except you forget that if you charge for support, you actually have to provide support (which costs money)

    12. Re:If.. by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      giving support costs.

      besides, they can already make EXTRA money by offering 'better' support that the client has to pay for seperately(consulting etc).

      so they're pumping the people that they can pump already.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    13. Re:If.. by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      What if they had been paying, say, $10-$15 a year since then for support? Microsoft would have made more on them than the customer's initial purchase of Windows (assuming an OEM installed Windows, not Retail).

      Assuming none of those customers had ever bothered to actually make use of said support. Callcenters are expensive...

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    14. Re:If.. by brontus3927 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1) OEM licensed software, Microsoft doesn't support. The OEM is required by the software license. 2) Microsoft already charges for the limited support they do offer. At least phone support. Email support is free, but worthless. Having gone that route, I don't believe anyone actually reads the emails sent, but a computer analyzes it for keywords and sends a boilerplate message based on the keywords. Then in slaps a name on the message to make it look like a real person is responding. 3) Most consumers want to pay up front (or finance), not subscribe to a support service. And what's to keep a user from not subscribing until a problem comes up, getting a 1 yr support contract, and then canceling after the problem is fixed (possibly getting a proration)? 4) Corporations that purchase support, are already getting that support elsewhere. Granted its largely Microsoft rhetoric generated to dupe the masses and make themselves sleep better at night, but they insist that their current model is used to help OEM system builders sell value-added services. 5) On the point someone made earlier about hacking WinXP to get it to be usable on older/lesser hardware, it comes back to the point made earlier in this thread. Selling bloated software is good business for all tha hardware manufacturers whose products are being sold to run the new software. Look at gaming and video cards. New cards come out to better run new games and new games come out to better take advantage of the capabilities of new cards. WinXP isn't going to run well on my PII 233 with 64MB RAM work machine, so if my employer wanted to upgrade to XP, they'd have to buy new hardware. And that makes companies like Dell and HP, happy and supports their profit margins, marketshare, and shareholder dividends. 6) Win98 came out 7 yrs ago. At $10-$15/yr, that comes out to $70-$105. Thats just barely breaking even with the current distribution model. Are the shareholders going to be happy with a business model change that takes longer to see the same profit? 7) It's a good idea, unfortunatly, not grounded on enough reality. mofe) I just wanted to use the number invented in one of the newspaper comic strips. sorry.

  6. MS DOES understand the value of open source by Anita+Coney · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The people at Microsoft aren't stupid. They completely understand open source. But, they also understand the value of a closed proprietary system. Microsoft earns 80% profit margins on Office and Windows. When Red Hat earns that kind of profit, then Microsoft might switch.

    --
    If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
    1. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by corevps · · Score: 1

      I'm sure if that margin ever goes down they will be more than happy to drop their price to compete. They have a lot of market and finachel support so they aren't going to go down without a fight

      --
      corevps.com - Root Servers from $7.99/mo
    2. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by PepeGSay · · Score: 4, Funny

      Exactly. Microsoft sell an OS and gives away T-Shirts. RedHat sells t-shirts and gives away an OS.

    3. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by PornMaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You apparently haven't seen the pricing for RedHat Enterprise Linux.

    4. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by Anita+Coney · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Exactly, the outrageous profit margins Microsoft makes will allow it to make outrageous price concessions if a competitor ever does arise on the desktop.

      But the problem for Microsoft is that it's basically a house of cards. Every other facet of Microsoft loses money other than Office and Windows. If either of those fail, the entire company would fail with it. That's why it is so desperate to do something different, e.g., Xbox, WebTV, WinCE, search, Windows Media Video 9/HD-DVD, etc. Thus, if Microsoft was forced to lower prices on Office/Windows, they'd have to start dumping all of their money losing areas to stay afloat.

      When I look at Microsoft that way, I think of the first Predator movie, with the well armed troops, shooting around at random, and hitting nothing.

      --
      If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
    5. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by natrius · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A closed, proprietary system is valuable to the software vendor, but not to its customers. As the benefits from switching to open systems begin to outweigh the costs, Microsoft's profit margins will decrease. Red Hat will never have the profit margins that Microsoft does, because the properties of closed systems that generate these margins inherently conflict with open systems (e.g. vendor lock-in). Microsoft will not be able to maintain their current profit margins as open systems improve. Until this happens, it would be foolish for Microsoft to drastically alter their business model.

    6. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by krumms · · Score: 4, Interesting

      When Red Hat earns that kind of profit, then Microsoft might switch.

      Well, that will never happen then. The big money in Open Source is always going to be made through services rather than software. If Microsoft open sourced office and windows, they'd have to suddenly completely change their business model.

      It would be a stupid idea business idea from anybody's perspective.

    7. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by hachete · · Score: 1

      RH would make that kind of money if RH Linux only, and nothing else, were sold with a PC. It's only the grip of MS on the OEMs that allows MS to charge so much. MS aren't stupid because they've distorted the market to their profit margins. So we're back to dodgy business practices rather than closed/open source, which I think is a non sequitur in this case.

      I think MS don't want to open their source for many other reasons, mostly atavistic, but partially going back to Mr Bill's letter to hobbyists in the 80's.

      --
      Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious
    8. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      $2499 for 24/7 phone support, they'd have to be hosting the call centre in India to make Microsoft's margins.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    9. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by 3waygeek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why pay it when you can get a free clone, built from the RedHat sources?

    10. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      Because all of the parts do not come together to make the whole that is Redhat Enterprise edition.

    11. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by cptgrudge · · Score: 2, Insightful
      When I look at Microsoft that way, I think of the first Predator movie, with the well armed troops, shooting around at random, and hitting nothing.

      But one of those "well armed troops" eventually kills that which he cannot at first see. Microsoft, so well armed (lots of cash), could really mess stuff up before the end if it gets backed into a corner and becomes desperate.

      --
      Qualitas edurus commercium, nullus penitus net rimor, nullus deus beneficium
    12. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1
      they'd have to suddenly completely change their business model.
      Well, IBM was rather succesful when they moved from selling boxes to a services company. Then again, they had to. MS is probably feeling very comfy in their current position.
      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    13. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by iamacat · · Score: 0, Troll

      Sadly, no. People would go to court to refund "Redhat tax" in droves and buy XP for $99.95. Current Linux distributions just don't cut it in software choices and ease of use for non-professionals. Someone with serious money would need to develop a good front end UI - open source or otherwise - first as Apple did for BSD. Is IBM still holding a grudge about stolen OS/2?

    14. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Every other facet of Microsoft loses money other than Office and Windows.

      Afaik xbox just crossed the line where it started bringing in more money than it costs(don't quite remember if that is across the whole line or just over 1 quarter tho). Without wanting to sound like an apologist, MS can afford to start up a project on a long term basis, as opposed to a lot of companies that can't seem to look beyond the next quarterly results. As for dropping prices on windows and office, well, they'd be making shitloads of money as opposed to huge shitloads maybe? Right now I doubt "staying afloat" is the proper term. Perhaps a decade from now things will be different...

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    15. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > The people at Microsoft aren't stupid. They completely understand open source.

      I'm really not sure about that. There's a seriously self-reinforcing culture at MS, with an almost messianic air, that Microsoft platforms everywhere would usher in some of technological renaissance, or at least just make everything smooth and easy. I'm not sure that kind of mindset allows for many competing views to come in.

      Come to think of it, it doesn't sound all that different than this other worldview...

    16. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Well, IBM was rather succesful when they moved from selling boxes to a services company.

      IBM has always been a service company, and they still sell boxes. Used to be you couldn't get their boxes without their services, and the bundling of said services landed them in court with the DOJ about this monopoly thing.

      The services are just far more profitable than the hardware, and they're willing to decouple them much more now. Microsoft on the other hand has never been a service company, preferring independent "Solutions Providers" to any Professional Services arm. Sun worked this way for a while too, though they now have a real PS division.

    17. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MS DOS understands wha... ?? Oh, never mind.

    18. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by Matilda+the+Hun · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding? If they switched, they'd end up getting more money. I mean, think about it. You get paid for everyone calling when they can't find their start menu...

      --
      Tluin natha Linux xxizzuss uriu olt bwael mon'tun.
    19. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by bcmm · · Score: 4, Funny
      Microsoft sell an OS and gives away T-Shirts. RedHat sells t-shirts and gives away an OS.
      And thats why I wear Microsoft shirts and use Linux.
      --
      # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i llama
      Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
    20. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by Swamii · · Score: 1

      A closed, proprietary system is valuable to the software vendor, but not to its customers.

      Nonsense. I'm a customer of Microsoft (I own a Windows box, 2 Windows laptops, Visual Studio, among other software) and their software benefits me. Would it benefit me more if it was open sourced? No, just like most Linux devs don't actually perform code fixes on the kernel, I wouldn't perform fixes on the Windows kernel.

      Grated, there are some theoretical benefits in open sourcing Windows (more eyes == more secure), but there are also theoretical benefits to keeping it closed (a single, unified standard rather than many incompatible variants: just look at the widget differences, clipboard sharing problems, and no unified install techniques, etc. on Linux)

      --
      Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit
    21. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by hachete · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I draw your attention to win3.1. Singularly unusable - I believe at the time GEM was a windowing system vastly superior to Win3.1 - yet Win 3.1 succeeded. MS can afford to incrementally improve their system because, through the tethered OEMs, they have this huge captive audience with a steady unthreatened income.

      If RH were in the *same position* as MS and the roles reversed, they too would be able to make the same sort of incremental changes. XP - if such a beast actually existed in this scenario - would then be in the current RedHat role of playing continual catch-up with no real hope of major recurring funding.

      Technology doesn't matter overly at the end of the day in the market as it stands. It's who *controls* the market wins. As it stands, that's MS.

      Now, *if* the market were equalized and OEMs had the ability to install whatever OS their customers wanted, then the MS tax would cease to exist. RedHat would then have a significant chance of breaking through on the desktop. Until that happens, superior technology or not, Linux will never succeed on the desktop. No non-MS OS has a chance, including MS's pet strawman Apple ("Oh look, a competing OS. We aren't really a monopoly!")

      If you ask me, this is what legislators are for...but I'm waxing nostalgic for 1997 :-j

      --
      Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious
    22. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by ChatHuant · · Score: 1

      But the problem for Microsoft is that it's basically a house of cards. Every other facet of Microsoft loses money other than Office and Windows.

      I'm sorry, but you're uninformed. It's really easy to research the facts a bit, rather than just parroting slashbot folklore. Find the numbers as presented by Microsoft here. Or, if you want a simplified presentation look here for a nice graph with Microsoft's revenue per division. Note that four out of seven divisions are profitable (and, for the last quarter, the XBox group was profitable too, but that's probably a glitch produced by Halo 2). Also, note that the Server and Tools division had revenue of $2,235 million for the 3 month ending September 04, comparable with either Client (that's mostly Windows) at $2,993 million and Information Worker (that's Office) at $2,560 million

      If either of those fail, the entire company would fail with it.

      Wrong again; the most successful division, Client, has an operating income of $2,392 million. Microsoft's total operating income is over $4 billion. If the Client division were to bring no income whatsoever, Microsoft's total operating income would still be almost 2 billion for the quarter.

      That's why it is so desperate to do something different, e.g., Xbox, WebTV, WinCE, search, Windows Media Video 9/HD-DVD, etc. Thus, if Microsoft was forced to lower prices on Office/Windows, they'd have to start dumping all of their money losing areas to stay afloat.

      Bad analysis, based on ignorance and hear-say. You're only looking to consumer-side stuff and ignoring all corporation-level work. Note that Microsoft is pushing a lot in the corporate space, with the Server and Tools and Business Solutions divisions. The Server and Tools divisions I mentioned already. The Business Solutions one has a lot of potential: Microsoft owns some pretty nifty tools there, like Axapta or Navision. While their current offer in the CRM area is rather confused at this moment, expect them to clarify and expand it in the next couple of years.

    23. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by PepeGSay · · Score: 1

      that's funny...

    24. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by Feztaa · · Score: 1

      Actually, most of the tshirts in my wardrobe were purchased from various open source projects... I have the firefox shirt and the creative commons shirt, to name a couple. What I'd like to see is a full line of clothing. If I could buy pants, socks, and underwear to support open source projects, I'd never have to go clothes shopping again ;)

    25. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by iamacat · · Score: 1

      Come on, GEM only ran in real mode and had no significant initial applications provided by the vendor - unlike virtual memory support and Office under Windows. Yes, you need freedom, but you also need alternative choices with a reasonable feature set, and Redhat is not "it" for casual users.

    26. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by hachete · · Score: 1

      My argument still stands. The large amounts of money gained through OEM-lockin is bound to lead to a better feature set.

      You can see it happening again and again. Some non-MS product for windows comes out with a marginally better feature set. MS diverts some of it's cash mountain into a marketing campaign and a push to envelope those new features in it's own products. Linux has security? Well, here's an unfeasibily large amount of cash and windows can become as least as good as if not better than. Firefox is better? Crank out a team to improve IE.

      So the current set-up is twisted against MS competitors who have or who are trying to get a better feature set. My argument is that you can't have one without the other. An open-market - or at least a more level playing field than we have now - would lead to competitors competing with similar feature sets. It's this commodification of the software market that MS fears most and which is what we should be aiming towards.

      Maybe - just maybe - with OSS the cash mountain has met the limitless scribblings of an infinite number of monkeys...we'll see who has the most amount of patience.

      --
      Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious
    27. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

      and you'd never get laid again either.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    28. Re:MS DOES understand the value of open source by Feztaa · · Score: 1

      Hah! You foolishly assume that I have been laid in the past! Well the jokes on you, I've nev-- awww, crap :(

  7. YAWN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Microsoft are pushing for patents so they can open source their OS and kill the "open source" threat.

    -captain obvious

    1. Re:YAWN by Timesprout · · Score: 1

      Exactly, because they really enjoyed being submarined on their own technology by Eolas.

      --
      Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
      What truth?
      There is no dupe
    2. Re:YAWN by WindBourne · · Score: 1, Informative

      MS did not create anything. It was shown that Eolas introduced MS to the technology, and then MS told them that it was worthless and they would not use it. However, MS was fast and furiously incorporating it into their stuff. Eolas had MS dead to center. What went wrong for them, is that the patent will be shown to be invalid by prior art on a number of other products/projects, which happened to include some stuff out of Unix when it was OSS. IOW, OSS is saving MS's butt.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    3. Re:YAWN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Microsoft will not hesitate to pull an Eolas, that's why they're patenting such garbage. They don't actually need to do that, they make their source availiable under NDA as shared source and levy patent licensing fees against open source projects to prevent them from being redistributed. Now that's what I call a "Microsoft tax" and anybody who had been paying attention over the last decade would be familiar with the Microsoft plan. Microsoft are not a charity, they are a borderline criminal monopoly.

      Deal with it.

  8. WiX by alatesystems · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I love how it mentions WiX. WiX has generated enormously good will for microsoft, at least with me.

    I don't ever see them releasing all of windows open source, but just releasing small utilities like that open source for others to toy with is a HUGE step forward. Pretend that microsoft hadn't released WiX, and it stayed as time called it, insignificant. No one would have bothered with it except MCP's and others, and they would have used WinInstall LE or whatever.

    But because microsoft released it free and OSS, an enormous buzz has been generated and an enormous amount of good will as well.

    1. Re:WiX by anomalous+cohort · · Score: 1

      I agree with the poster, Wix did and does generate good will and, IMHO, MSFT will never release all windows source. I don't think that Wix is popular because it is OSS but because the source is available without any legal encumberances. There is a difference. Let me explain.

      The EULA for their Data Application Blocks is not open source at all, yet this code is very popular. Why? Because you get an easily buildable copy of the source without any restrictions or legal encumberances. Is it OSS? No. There is no mechanism for posting your code changes back to the community. That part of OSS doesn't seem to matter to the typical developer who uses MSFT technology.

  9. Imagining Windows as Open Source by bigtallmofo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What I've imagined are thousands of developers worldwide working for years to cut bloat from the operating system eventually landing on a copy of Windows XP with all the relevant features that installs on a Pentium II with 64 megs of RAM on a 1 gig hard drive with plenty of room to spare.

    Unfortunately there's a lot of effort and little to no profit to be had in reducing bloat; so for-profit companies rarely do it.

    --
    I'm a big tall mofo.
    1. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by Kosmatos · · Score: 1

      Microsoft is already cutting the bloat out of the OS. I'm under NDA so I can't say more, but maybe you should look more into Avalon, Blackcomb, etc.

      --
      I'm your huckleberry
    2. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by Kosmatos · · Score: 1

      Although your dream of this stuff running on a Pentium II is just that, A dream.

      Enjoy your boring old bitmap-based interface...

      --
      I'm your huckleberry
    3. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by corevps · · Score: 1

      There is of course http://msdn.microsoft.com/embedded/default.aspx - Windows Embedded

      --
      corevps.com - Root Servers from $7.99/mo
    4. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by a_greer2005 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      UM...no!

      It IS profitable to bloat because M$ wants to sell new computers to keep companies like Dell, and Gateway and any other desktop vendor willing to partner with them - who would buy a new computer if the software can run in a 6 year old unit with little to no upgrade?

    5. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by 1000101 · · Score: 4, Informative
      "eventually landing on a copy of Windows XP with all the relevant features that installs on a Pentium II with 64 megs of RAM on a 1 gig hard drive with plenty of room to spare..."


      Why is this so important? The PII was release in 1997 I believe. At the rate that hardware speeds are changing, why is it necessary to be able to install on hardware that is 8+ years old? Fry's had an ad in my local paper this past weekend for a compete system with a 2 GHz Celeron, 128 MB RAM, and a 40 GB hd for $179. At those prices, it doesn't make sense for Microsoft to spend millions of dollars on making XP capable of running on ancient hardware (actually, even the specs I mentioned are somewhat ancient). I have two machines, and one of them has a 700 MHz slot-A AMD Athlon with 256 MB RAM. It is running Windows XP Professional without a hitch. 64 MB of RAM is your biggest problem, but that is cheap these days as well.

    6. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by bigtallmofo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Catering to a lower common denominator in minimum system specs would make running the operating system far quicker on truly modern systems, but still usable on "obsolete" systems that are only 5-6 years old that would otherwise end up in a landfill.

      I think this is a worthy goal.

      --
      I'm a big tall mofo.
    7. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by tdvaughan · · Score: 1

      Taking GNOME and KDE as examples of the Open Source community's efforts towards reducing bloat, I doubt that they'd manage the results you'd want. Speedwise, WinXP is actually pretty good.

    8. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by Bri3D · · Score: 1

      Windows Embedded would be perfect for the grandparent because it allows you to cut off the components you don't need, but it can also be exactly the same as XP pro depending on how you build it. Windows Embedded is basically exactly what the grandparent was imagining, here today for a huge price.

    9. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by leoboiko · · Score: 4, Informative

      Cheap for first-world citizens, maybe. U$179 is more than what my mother earns by month. Public schools around here need computer labs badly, but can barely afford a bunch of Pentium IIs. Windows 9x is still the most used OS. 128 RAM is a lot. Apple? What is Apple?

      --
      Prescriptive grammar:linguistics :: alchemy:chemistry. Stop being a nazi and learn some science.
    10. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by calculi · · Score: 1

      I think you're being a bit charitable. I have an 800MHz P3 with 256MB RAM and XP Pro most certainly does not run "without a hitch". There are frequent "hitches", which is why I'm running Ubuntu now (not still without hitches).

    11. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Erm ... I'd like to see a modern Linux distro do that.

      Ubuntu, hyped up as a slim/fast-performing distro, ran like absolute molasses on my PII/192 MB test box. I'd like to see some explanation for that. Oh, and before you ask, XP/Server 2003 ran very smoothly.

    12. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I put together two Postfix servers at work, one running on a classic Pentium 233mhz and the other on a Pentium II 266mhz. Both are running 2.4.x kernels, both have only 128mb of RAM, and both are handling hundreds of thousands of messages a day. I could probably get away with NT4, but of course, I can't get Postfix to run on them. Windows is hugely bloated and each new version sees this kind of hardware slide off the edge. Linux has given at least five old machines I've worked with new life. A minimal install of something like Slack can be used to make even a classic Pentium a router/firewall.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    13. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by Narchie+Troll · · Score: 1

      I didn't know that excitement was really a priority in computer interfaces. I thought speed and response time were much more important for productivity.

      But I guess I'm just too stupid to understand the myriad uses of the genie effect and wobbly windows. Maybe it would enhance my productivity for my windows to be transparent so I couldn't see anything clearly.

      I don't think I've heard a single cogent point in favor of the shift to 3D-accelerated interfaces.

    14. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by LumpyRabbit · · Score: 0

      I agree that bloat can be a big pain in the rear. However, lets take a look at the other side of the coin for a moment. If Microsoft did not "bloat" its software then the hardware industry, particularly Intel, would not have had an incentive to keep pushing their envelope, thus keeping hardware stagnate, processing power low and research capabilities limited.
      Remember the days when a 4MB "upgrade" was ~$250. We'd still be in times similar to that. We have now hit a time when the hardware power has by far out ran software. This next decade is about building the best software to run on the hardware can handle it instead of in the 90's when it was the other way around.

      --
      OpenSource is only free if your time isn't worth anything
    15. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      So why should MS spend money to support someone that won't give them any? Use Linux, use older software that works on the older machines. This seems like a wanting your cake and wanting to eat it too situation.

    16. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cheap for first-world citizens, maybe. U$179 is more than what my mother earns by month.

      No way man, I just paid her $200 for last night.

    17. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by Corngood · · Score: 1

      I don't think I've heard a single cogent point in favor of the shift to 3D-accelerated interfaces.

      It makes stuff look sweet, and when stuff looks sweet, that is awesome.

      I'm sure, this being slashot, that there's a good chance you exist in a room with bare walls and no windows. And the lights are probably out.

      Well, the rest of the world likes to paint their walls with brash colours, and hang abstract prints from IKEA. They also talk on telephones shaped like fruit, and drive motor cars with neon lights on the fucking bottom. It's called aesthetics, and while most people make a total hash of it, it's everywhere, including computers. Get used to it.

    18. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seems to me, if you look at the fine print, those Fye's boxes are running Lindoze..... At least the one's I have seen..... Buy one and the salesman will tell you you cannot legally install XP on them.... (Personal Experience...)

      BTW - hardware wise, those boxen are lacking - even for Lindoze - 128 MB of RAM? It runs, but looks (and runs) like crap next to an fully configured XP box.... Generally, the same box - when sold with XP - has 256mb of ram....

      But, replace the RAM with a 512 Stick and a copy of Fedora Core - then you have a deal....

    19. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by Narchie+Troll · · Score: 1

      It makes stuff look like Liberace took a dump on it after eating a bucket of jujubes. There's something called minimalism, and computer interfaces could sure use a nice big dose of it.

    20. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by leoboiko · · Score: 1

      Use Linux, use older software that works on the older machines.

      I use GNU/Linux all the way, baby (do you think I even come near to that 9x thing? I haven't installed any proprietary software on my machines for some five years). I disagree with you on the "older software", though. My ratpoison-cvs is very new, as is emacs, XFCE, fluxbox etc. This is what I'm disagreeing it; the OP's opinion that "new software doesn't have to run in older hardware". If it wants to be used by a significant portion of the world, and Free Software often wants, yest, it does. Further, as others having pointed, minimizing the resource usage of your software is 1) a way of disciplining your code and 2) a way to make sure that it will be lightning fast when used with new hardware (Gnome devels, please hear).

      --
      Prescriptive grammar:linguistics :: alchemy:chemistry. Stop being a nazi and learn some science.
    21. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by seweso · · Score: 0

      Then they should open up the source of windows 98. I worked on a windows 98 system yesterday evening and it was lightning fast on a 166mhz machine. If windows 98 could be secured it would be the best os to run the best version of office on: office 97!

    22. Re:Imagining Windows as Open Source by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      I have one thing to say to this:
      Do you expect your sedan to be able to haul the same things as a dump truck? Sometimes things are just too big, and you can't cut them down into parts. Or it takes longer to haul. Ratpoison and fluxbox are a pain for many basic users to administrate. Unfortunately, with new features, you just have a bigger load to carry. Period.

  10. is that.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    New World monkeys or Old World monkeys?

    1. Re:is that.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're Cartman, there's room enough for both. Why not invite the whole monkey family?

    2. Re:is that.. by iamacat · · Score: 1

      You are really going to install Windows on both vintage and modern Macs? Sacrilege!!

  11. Er? by Nine+Tenths+of+The+W · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It also shows that even if it might look that Microsoft doesn't understand the value of open source,

    When you say "value", you mean "potential massive loss of revenue", right? Microsoft are there to make a profit. Expecting them to adopt open source is like expecting Ayn Rand to rise from the grave clutching a copy of Das Kapital.

    --
    Slashdot: News for Nerds, Stuff that matters only to them
    1. Re:Er? by lolocaust · · Score: 1

      Slashdot: News for Nerds, Stuff that matters only to us

      Sig fixed

      --
      Why does my post history abruptly stop? I want to laugh at the stupid things I posted as a kid.
  12. is this site shared source? by diegocgteleline.es · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I wonder if the code behind start.com/1 is shared source. It has a nice javascript RSS reader I'd like to copy *cought*

    1. Re:is this site shared source? by Storlek · · Score: 1

      It's also broken XHTML 1.0 served as text/html (thus defeating the point of using XHTML) and has a javascript hack to redirect it to www.start.com/1/ instead of using a server-side Location: header. (Does IIS not have anything similar to mod_rewrite?) I wouldn't be very confident of the quality of the rest of the code based on that.

      --
      Bears don't normally eat things that talk and move backwards.
  13. would mean that? by raynet11 · · Score: 0, Troll

    I would no longer have to boot into windows to run the latest viruses and crippleware?

  14. He made it to an escape pod! by argent · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Steve is a great guy, and he did some wonderful stuff for Microsoft, and for the rest of us as well. Interix makes all the difference for me... it's like a shoulder-length rubber glove between me and the Win32 subsystem.

    But maybe he doesn't quite appreciate the damage Microsoft has done to their reputation by bundling together true open source programs and traditional restricted source releases to customers under a single banner. It's confusing, and they should at least downplay it... they should separate out the truly Open Source components and make it clear that they do Get It, if only in little bits here and there.

    And if they'd open-source Interix, whooo... it'd be like attaching a Jato unit to their public relations problem...

    1. Re:He made it to an escape pod! by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      it's like a shoulder-length rubber glove between me and the Win32 subsystem.

      For one reason or another that brings up some very disturbing images in my mind...but then again, the windows 32 subsystem is a capricious little beastie.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    2. Re:He made it to an escape pod! by argent · · Score: 1

      Somehow Windows 32 just remonds me of James Herriot's rural vetinarian stories, so these kinds of analogies just come naturally to mind.

  15. What good will? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Seriously, WiX is Windows-specific. They've just given you one more way to tie yourself to windows.

    They currently have a fully documented MSI Windows Installer file format. This is problematic because it's binary and isn't amenable to change. By moving to XML, they aren't making things less transparent, they're just making things easier for them to upgrade with stylesheets. It's a no-brainer to open source because it was already open.

    1. Re:What good will? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, if they were serious, MFC would be a much better target for open sourcing.

      It's been "shared source" for years and it is a bit antequated given .NET, but if it were open sourced, we'd be able to fix MFC's annoyances, and we'd be able to adapt it to be portable to other platforms.

  16. I don't think so... by ajaf · · Score: 1

    Microsoft is not going to open their windows source. Remember Longhorn? they need to make bussiness with that first.

    --
    ajf
  17. Philanthropy? by Broiler · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How would M$ make money at this? Before I get blasted the same kind of money they are making today. Open source is great, but aren't most of the posts anti establishment? Why is it bad to make money? If you don't like don't buy it. You can not ask a man who has been making money the same way for years to suddenly stop.
    No this is nothing against Linux, I run Linux for certain applications and I run M$ for other applications. They are just tools. I always use the correct tool for the job.

    --
    My sigs offend the max # of people all over the world, regardless of race, religion, color, sex or creed. It's a gift.
    1. Re:Philanthropy? by Ian.Waring · · Score: 1

      They only need do what Red Hat does with Linux - give Windows away for free but charge for WindowsUpdate. And add telephone support as an option too. I don't understand what's taking them so long to work this out!

    2. Re:Philanthropy? by Broiler · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They only need do what Red Hat does with Linux - give Windows away for free but charge for WindowsUpdate. And add telephone support as an option too. I don't understand what's taking them so long to work this out!

      Charge for updates! I could only imagine the backlash to that. M$ would be accused of rolling bad code intentionally...they already are accused of doing it http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/24/034824 1&tid=109&tid=99
      And support would be way to difficult and expensive for them. I don't even want, nor can I afford, to support my family.

      --
      My sigs offend the max # of people all over the world, regardless of race, religion, color, sex or creed. It's a gift.
    3. Re:Philanthropy? by rhizome · · Score: 1

      >Charge for updates! I could only imagine the backlash to that.

      Not "charge for updates," but "charge for Windows Update". There's a difference, and it involves making the patches available for manual installation and charging to make things easier for the customer. You know, like a service.

      --
      When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
    4. Re:Philanthropy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why? Why do OSS developers support this? Microsoft makes money selling software. Developers make software. Developers get paid a salary for their critical function. Why would you want to throw that away?

      When did everyone here become CFO's anyway. MS is making a hell of a lot of money. They would be stupid to throw that away.

    5. Re:Philanthropy? by tehdaemon · · Score: 1
      "Why is it bad to make money?"


      Making money is bad when (among others times) it comes at the cost of creating wealth.

      Note: wealth != money.

      --
      Laws are horrible moral guides, moral guides make even worse laws.
    6. Re:Philanthropy? by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      I agree with "if you don't like it, don't buy it" whole heartedly..
      However, MS tries to make sure that you HAVE to buy their stuff wether you like it or not, this is mine (and most peoples) biggest problem with ms. If they used open standards and you truly could just not buy their stuff, then i would be a lot happier.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  18. MS-speak by BumpyCarrot · · Score: 3, Interesting
    By Spring 2001, Microsoft needed to have an active position on the open source phenomena...

    Read that as "Open source is currently in, we need some of that".

    I can't help thinking that someone considers WiX a casualty of war.

    --
    Do you see what I did there?
  19. nice dream . by amnesiacdotorg · · Score: 3, Interesting

    all this " feel-good-happy-sunshine day " stuff is fine, we can all envision our own utopias and see our children playing in wheat fields and whatnot, but the reality of the situation is that a marked paradigm shift would need to occur before microsoft truly embraces " open source " .

    open source is not mutually exclusive to programmers and code . open source is the way of the future in terms of the thinking that it fosters: transparent, goal-oriented ( rather than profit-driven ) teamwork . nothing lasts forever, especially not behemoths the size of microsoft . eventually, a better path will be found .

  20. OT: Jato vs JATO by sczimme · · Score: 2, Interesting

    it'd be like attaching a Jato unit to their public relations problem...

    I understand what you were trying to say, but there are two small issues to consider:

    JATO is an acronym for Jet Assisted Take Off and should be capitalized. It is used to help heavily loaded aircraft generate enough linear thrust (and thus lift) to take off on runways that would otherwise be too short. There is a neat picture here of a C-130 deploying a JATO.

    Attaching an accelerating device to a problem just accelerates the problem (as in Interix's PR problem). No one likes a fast-moving problem. :-)
    And just for fun, here is the link to the Snopes debunking of the alleged Darwin Award winner. The stories aren't true but perhaps they should be...

    --
    I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
  21. Re:OT: Jato vs JATO by argent · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    JATO is an acronym for Jet Assisted Take Off and should be capitalized.

    My abject apologies.

    Interix's PR problem

    ITYM Microsoft's PR problem. Interix would be part of the solution, not part of the precipitate.

  22. Re:OT: Jato vs JATO by sczimme · · Score: 0


    My abject apologies.

    No apologies necessary - I'm just goofing around (and being a little pedantic, no doubt). :-)

    ITYM Microsoft's PR problem. Interix would be part of the solution, not part of the precipitate.

    ITY are correct - my abject apologies to you.

    (Bonus points for the chem reference...)

    --
    I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
  23. what it would really mean... by noz · · Score: 0

    what it would really mean if Microsoft would open-source their operating system.

    Anyone, anyone who has programmed any part of an operating system would laugh their arse off.

  24. One point here that Slashdot posters often miss by mentaldrano · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Microsoft has to file monthly reports with the SEC, detailing its profits and expenses. If the quarterly profit numbers change even a little bit, even if they are "lower than expected growth," the stock price can decline sharply.

    If Bill Gates alone, or all the executives decided to switch to an open source model one day, I guarantee that even if the switch had yet to take place, the expense of starting such a project would have a large impact on profit, and may cause a stock price slip. Too large of a slip, and the board asks nasty questions. Don't forget, Microsoft only answers to Bill in the short term, anything longer than about three months puts the board and the stockholders in charge.

    Stockholders like 80% profit margins.

  25. "Security" by Nichotin · · Score: 1

    Shared Source is meant to satisfy those that think that Open Source means it is more secure because people can view the source.

  26. One Step at a Time by Ann+Elk · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Here's what I'd really like to see: Microsoft opening/sharing/whatever the source code to the NT kernel. Just enough to build NTOSKRNL.EXE, NTDLL.DLL, and a couple of HALs (one UP, one MP). This would provide device driver developers with an enormously valuable resource. I suspect this would eventually lead to greater driver stability, as many of the "magic incantations" currently required would start to make more sense.

    Also, releasing the kernel source would not enable sudden flood of Windows-wannnabes. Just as in the Linux world, "kernel source does not a distribution make".

    1. Re:One Step at a Time by CDarklock · · Score: 2, Interesting

      > many of the "magic incantations"
      > currently required would start to
      > make more sense.

      I think if you start back-stepping through Windows driver development until you get back to the 3.0 days, it *will* make sense. Backward compatibility is the primary reason for this sort of magic; when you develop a Windows device driver, it has to stand a reasonable chance of working with all properly-designed Windows apps from the last two decades, or people get upset. A lot of arcana got carried forth from the previous versions of Windows, and some of it just can't be abstracted into anything easier.

      On the bright side, this is why you can play old games from a USB thumb drive. Sure, they had to jump through some extra hoops to write the driver, but I tend to think it was worth it.

      As far as kernel source not making a distribution, Windows is pretty monolithic. Unlike Linux, where most of your system is isolated in small stand-alone utilities, pretty much everything in Windows is woven together such that it would be a nightmare to try and untangle it. Longhorn may start to address this, but it's an architectural condition that can't really be resolved without making some major changes to the O/S.

      --
      Microsoft cheerleader, blue flag waving, you got a problem with that?
    2. Re:One Step at a Time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's called the Device Driver Development Kit (DDK).

    3. Re:One Step at a Time by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As far as kernel source not making a distribution, Windows is pretty monolithic. Unlike Linux, where most of your system is isolated in small stand-alone utilities, pretty much everything in Windows is woven together such that it would be a nightmare to try and untangle it. Longhorn may start to address this, but it's an architectural condition that can't really be resolved without making some major changes to the O/S

      Actually the NT kernel is far form monolithic. It is still classified as a client/server kernel (which is somewhat unique into iself)

      There are NO woven' or NT kernel dependancies. Each subsystem that lies on top of the NT kernel have their own 'OS Layer' Kernels, that are woven in their specific Subsystem, but they are not woven into NT kernsl, and far from it.

      NT's arichtecture can actually do things that neither a monolithic BSD or micro Linux kernel can do, that is part of the genius behind Cutler and the NT development team of 1990-1993. And this is still being used today.

      Not only does it offer a HAL an portabiltiy, but it also offers the same type of portability up in layers on the platform.

      Microsoft already has a Unix subsystem for Windows, and it is even running on a couple of server here (one for test). It is a UNIX Subsystem, it has NOTHING to do with the Win32 subystem unless it wants to. In theory, Microsoft could even drop in a Linux binary level subsytem (with slight kernel changes in their Linux subsystem kernel), and run binary compatible i386 applicaitons in a Subsystem, and have the applications, EVEN X, appear side by side on the Windows desktop. And Linux would even then be running on TOP of the NT kernel, with possibly even an increase in performance for the Linux applications.

      The irony in this, is that if Linux ever gets too succesful, that is all Microsoft would have to do is just add a Linux Subystem to the NT platform, and bingo, the users have WIndows and Linux too.

    4. Re:One Step at a Time by CDarklock · · Score: 1

      Which is exactly why the kernel source would not be as useful as people think. Which subsystem's source would you really need to debug your specific project? Does it depend on other subsystems? Do those subsystems depend on still more subsystems?

      It's not really a problem in terms of Microsoft identifying and packaging up the source (which is probably not all THAT difficult), it's a problem in terms of the developer understanding which packages are needed. The level of complexity is high enough that access to the Windows source probably wouldn't solve your problems, but just give you a whole new set of problems you didn't have before.

      To use a weird metaphor, NT is sort of like a sandwich. It's got all these layers, and they're all stacked up together, but none of those layers is the "real" sandwich. When you need to debug the sandwich, you can't get by with just the source to the bologna or the lettuce, you need the source to the whole sandwich -- because the problem might be in the mayonnaise, and even if it isn't you're still going to have to trace through the mayonnaise to get to the bread. That doesn't make it a bad sandwich, it just means you don't have a whole lot of legitimate options to do a partial source release.

      Dammit, now I want a sandwich.

      --
      Microsoft cheerleader, blue flag waving, you got a problem with that?
    5. Re:One Step at a Time by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 1

      Your metaphor is good, but you're missing one small point. The reason that NT was successful (even in the hard-line geek world back in the early 90s), and continues to be successful as core OS model is that the abstraction that you see as confusion is greater extensibility than anyone else has.

      Like I said, this concept that is part of the NT kernel/core and unique to NT that it gives NT the ability to not only be flexible on portability, but also flexible on what is above the NT kernel and what it can run or do for the asking subsystems above it.

      As for the whole debugging scenario that you set forth, if you have to debug both the Win32 subsystem kernel and then the NT kernel, you are either writing a fairly specialized driver, or would be a novice that is digging into the NT kernel with no reason.

      Most Win32 developers never realize that they are just working in the OS subsystem that is Win32, and there is no reason for them TO KNOW different 99.99999% of the time, unless it is a very specialized application. (Even many of the NT Kernel specific functions are translated and available to developers in the Win32 subsystem, so even when they need a NT kernel feature, they still don't have to go to the true NT kernel to use it). The Win32 API provides either functions for or translation to almost every NT kernel feature needed from a developer standpoint.

      This is truly an advantage, even though it may seem a bit complex as it plays to both sides. But when you realize that the client/server kernel, and object based subsystem model is, NT deserves a bit of respect as the Cutler team did create a Next Gen OS model. What NT is, was only theory in part when it was devised.

      It also has more extensibility than anyone truly sees - which if competitors ever lose site of, they will be shocked and beaten by Microsoft again, when Microsoft turns NT on a dime if they need to and compete directly. Imagine a Darwin Subsystem, FreeBSD subsystem, Linux Subsystem, and just keep going from there.

      NT could be EVERY OS, doing what each of these other OSes can only do one at a time (except through VM emulation), and not only run these subsystems and their applications side by side on screen, with NT's object messaging model passing information if needed between them, and the user could still have a win32/win64 subsystem as well just for playing games when they aren't managing the apache server in the FreeBSD subsystem.

      NT has some genius, whether the win32 subsystem code is sloppy or not, and do not for second ever discount this, or the open source and open source OSes will truly get out foxed in the end and all their work will end up just like it did at Apple, a part of closed proprietary OS...

    6. Re:One Step at a Time by CDarklock · · Score: 1

      > you're missing one small point

      You're missing a big one.

      My purpose is not to say that NT kernel source is *bad*, but that NT kernel source is not what people actually need.

      I'm not sure why you keep trying to convince me NT is such a great architecture; I'm only saying it's different enough that the people who think they need it are probably wrong. So far, it seems like you'd agree with this. So what's the sitch?

      --
      Microsoft cheerleader, blue flag waving, you got a problem with that?
  27. Shared? by FidelCatsro · · Score: 3, Informative

    share1 Audio pronunciation of "shared" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (shâr)
    n.

    1. A part or portion belonging to, distributed to, contributed by, or owed by a person or group.
    2. An equitable portion: do one's share of the work.
    3. Any of the equal parts into which the capital stock of a corporation or company is divided.

    v. shared, sharing, shares
    v. tr.

    1. To divide and parcel out in shares; apportion.
    2. To participate in, use, enjoy, or experience jointly or in turns.
    3. To relate (a secret or experience, for example) to another or others.
    4. To accord a share in (something) to another or others: shared her chocolate bar with a friend. ................

    Don't microsoft mean Displayed Source initiative, as your not allowed to use all of it , Yes some is under OSI aproved licenses, though some of it effectivly puts your anatomy in a vice if you want to work on certain projects in the future.

    --
    The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
  28. Misanthropy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Because once making money goes above all other pursuits, it starts to damage the environment, the people, the animals, everyone.

    Making money is not bad (it's a tool like anything else, a way to measure resources) but making it your god which justifies all means, that is bad.

    Corporations have no soul and no social responsibility. If they could make lots of money by selling babies stolen from the birth ward and then beheaded, you can be 100% sure that's what would happen! "If you don't like, don't buy it" doesn't make a difference since the damage has already been done.

    I'm sure these are among the reasons many people consider money and making money to be bad.

    1. Re:Misanthropy by MerlinTheWizard · · Score: 1
      Corporations have no soul and no social responsibility.

      I'm not sure what you mean by "soul", but as for social responsibility, I guess that could be said about most of us, unfortunately.

      Ethics is what it takes. Corporations, and professional work in general, should be led with some kind of ethics. Some organizations strive to promote ethics, such as the IEEE. It's not the only one, of course, but I guess a good indicator of a corporation's sense of ethics is whether they have one or more managers that are members of the IEEE or another similar organization.

  29. Wrong. by Blacken00100 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Sorry, no. As the previous poster said, you're talking about free software.

    Excellent work being wrong. Back to your RMS hole.

    1. Re:Wrong. by SphericalCrusher · · Score: 1

      They are right. Open Source doesn't always mean that the product is free... it just means that the source code and probably a version of the software is free. But depending on the license, they can always make a version to profit off of and still release the source code... because not everyone on Earth knows how to take that source code and compile it into the actual software. Plus, they won't have everything to make the software's GUI run the same anyhow.

      Take Solaris for example... it's open-source, but the entire OS isn't exactly free.

      --
      "Instant gratification takes too long." - Carrie Fisher
  30. Not Necessarily Correct by eno2001 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    The Windows tree is not the Linux tree. The Windows tree is akin to an entire mainstream Linux distribution, except with a tightly integrated code base.

    This is a sticking point that people in the Windows camp don't seem to be able to get around.

    1. "Linux" is just the kernel. I think that's what this guy was trying to say when he said that the Windows tree is not the Linux tree.
    2. A mainstream "GNU/Linux distribution" like Mandrake, RedHat, Fedora, Novell or Debian is more akin to Microsoft Windows Professional + Microsoft Office + Microsoft Plus Pack + Window Blinds + Norton Internet Security + Roxio + [insert any brand of CD/DVD ripping software here] + Development tools + IIS + Microsoft SQL + Abobe Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro + Outlook. At least for a start.

    So, if you are going to compare Microsoft Windows to a mainstream GNU/Linux distribution, you quickly see that the GNU/Linux tree is not the Windows tree as there is a whole lot more source code that does into your average distro and a lot of it is very tightly integrated. This is why it is pretty amazing that all the distros are really good about not just updating the basic "OS" code, but all the bundled apps as well. If Microsoft really released a Windows distribution with all the same functionality as a typical GNU/Linux distro, I have a feeling they'd have an even harder time keeping up security wise. It's interesting to note that the supposed independent studies of Linux vs. Windows always harp on how many more security updates that GNU/Linux distros put out than Microsoft does for Windows. They attack that claiming that there are far more security holes in the OS but still equate Windows as offering the same services with fewer patches needed. However, it quickly becomes obvious that since Windows provides such a small amount of functionality when compared to a GNU/Linux distro, they do not offer the same services. It's highly likely that if they did, their patchlist would rival all GNU/Linux distro's patch lists combined. :)

    --
    -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
    1. Re:Not Necessarily Correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ah... yes..

      and when microsoft follow "A mainstream "GNU/Linux distribution"", that equal to monopoly ..

  31. Hardware speeds aren't changing by mangu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Where are the 10 GHz CPUs we were supposed to have by now? What about a 5 GHz one? How long has the 3 GHz CPU been state-of-the-art?

  32. windows open by radu124 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The question is, what would Microsoft have to win or to loose from publishing part of its sources. And which part would they publish.

    And if someone would like to distribute a modified version why not? You would still be required to have a license for Windows to run it.

    Now, I would like to be able to change a few things in Windows (like everything except for the GUI). The actual core of the OS is not so great anyway.
    (I wonder if ReiserFS is better than NTFS. Did anyone do any benchmarks? It might not be so easy to compare separate components of two OSes. I am inclined to think Reiser is better.)
    (by the way, is it possible to change the FS of the partition Windows is booting from, even without having access to the source code? like studying the ddk and writing and replacing some dlls? )

    Why don't they make sources public?
    It's not like Windows works so well that everybody wanted to copy it.

    I guess it's because once the sources become available there would be much easier to make a windows clone. WINE is getting closer anyway, but still has a lot to go.

    And also, who would stop you from turning your Home edition into the Server one by replacing some components with third party ones (possibly free ones).
    I think most people would buy and use the Official Windows Version anyway. It's a matter of psychology. Microsoft could then make agreements with third parties to include their changes in the official distribution. I think there are people that would contribute code for free only if they were given the chance to modify their windows.

    about which parts they could open: It wouldn't make sense to publish the code for Office, but next to that I think the GUI they should be interested in keeping secret, because that's what they have best. They could make public the parts that don't really work well.

    1. Re:windows open by hazah · · Score: 1

      Bench marks? I hope you're kidding. You shouldn't use ReiserFS on a small harddrive as it consumes about 30mb for it's own metadata. But if you have a choice, save yourself the headache and use it! Don't know how windows will cope with it, but then I won't recommend it anyway. For one, NTFS fragments itself. While it's a "solution" to a "problem", this sort of "problem" has been solved a long long time ago. NT is old, and sounds so "ninties". In my opinion it's obsolete, and only in use b/c it's defacto with a windows install. That and their continuous lack of support for so many other things out there.

    2. Re:windows open by radu124 · · Score: 1

      Sorry, are you saying NTFS is better?

    3. Re:windows open by hazah · · Score: 1

      How did you reach that conclusion? I said it's old and obsolete... or are you just trying to amuse yourself?

    4. Re:windows open by radu124 · · Score: 1

      No, but please explain then, if it is old and obsolete, why are 85% computers using it?

      (When I said NTFS I was not refering to NT4, and the next filesystem from Microsoft is yet to come, and I'm not really convinced it will be better)

      As it is, I don't like fragmentation status on the computer I'm working on (w2k), and I don't have Admin privileges to defragment it, so it can be really frustrating.

      Also file caching is crappy, try copying a large file between two partitions and see your harddisk doing seek each few kilobytes, try accessing the CD with two programs at the same time and see how both work at 1/10 speed.

      Virtual memory management is primitive: if you really use two memory intensive programs and Windows is forced to throw some of the data on disk, when you finally realise your mistake and close one of them, the other one will take a few minutes to recover and get it's few megabytes back from disk.

      What about only allowing certain IP addreses on a network to connect to my file shares. Or maybe it's possible and I don't know it. But I would replace windows file shareing with the Linux Samba version anytime (actually I would prefer sftp), but I could find neither on windows (actually there is sftp but not for free, and I don't feel like installing cygwin)

      On the other hand Linux is just the reverse. You have a good base to build on, but aplications are awfull, even freeware is better on Windows.

    5. Re:windows open by hazah · · Score: 1

      No, but please explain then, if it is old and obsolete, why are 85% computers using it?

      Explanation: Defacto standard with windows. Like your wonderful IE, NTFS is your file system by default.

      You're probably correct in every one of your observations except for your last comment. Linux is not the reverse of anything, and there are other perhaps even more solid bases to build off of.

      Just to be clear, I've been using a linux distribution for nearly 3 years now almost exclusively. I find it difficult to understand what you mean that the applications are awful. The only thing I can say about them is that they are not like they are on windows. However, I found them to be much more consistant, so once I learned a few, the rest just tend to make themselves somewhat more strait forward.

      I don't remember the last time I had to deal with freeware, cause that's just not an issue. If I want my computer to do something, I find the appropriate package, install it, and everything alse is automagic. I get pretty much the latest version of everything I downloaded. To top it off, the software that looks for new packages to configure and install packages comes right with the OS, so it's a matter of typing a command and the name of the package. Elegant, and simple.

      It is true that I have gained a lot of experience, and others find themselves lost in a unix based system. But that's to be expected when you never seen it before. Just don't judge what you don't understand, because you might someday get how it all works, and I'm sure, that once that happens, you'd appreciate what it's like to run an Open OS.

      Just as a side note, I haven't had to deal with any sort of fragmentation to date. The solution to the problem has been around for quite some time. It's nothing new, but what can we except from good ol' M$.

  33. Lack of Stability? by wwahammy · · Score: 1

    Maybe I misunderstood part of this person's argument (I skimmed through the article), but isn't he saying that part of the disadvantage of open sourcing Windows or OFfice would be a lack of stability. I don't buy that argument. Microsoft would still have the trademarks to Windows and Office and would be able to wield tremendous power in requiring certain aspects of the program to be work a certain way ala the idea for open sourcing Java. Any disadvantage in brand stability would be offset I believe by more than offset by increased product quality. Microsoft might have valid economic reasons not to open source Windows but I sure don't think that a lack of brand stability should be one of them.

    1. Re:Lack of Stability? by stephenrwalli · · Score: 1

      You're correct that they can always maintain a stable product under their brand, but the perception of loss of stability with genuine "clones" that don't get it right, or simply living the irony of their own FUD may be enough to make consumers pause.

  34. For a seemingly reasonable use case by smittyoneeach · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I'd like to use C++ STL containers (I understand them, the knowledge is broadly usable) against managed code to do some custom indexing against MS Word .doc files.
    Various data are kept in an .mdb to support the task. While I'm making steading progress (already prototyped the thing in VBA, it was just too slow and threw some obscure error that may have been memory-related at about the 4-hour point), I must express

    dismay at what an obfuscated object model MS Word presents

    admiration for the VBA enviornment for creating such a silk purse out of this sow's ear.
    So, in addition to tidying the operating system (or at least producing well documented test cases showing WTF), we could also expect to see gradual creation of wrapper classes that would un-bork a lot of this ugliness. I'm envisioniong http://ms_office_space.sourceforge.net, or something, as an umbrella project for libraries that are as 'easy' to use as VBA, but are in a language we can use without negative impact to our self-esteem.
    That will be enough wishful thinking for now, Chris; back to work.

    --
    Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    1. Re:For a seemingly reasonable use case by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This may have an improved object model: http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/office/officetoo ls.aspx.

      But it requires .NET. The good news is in the next version of .NET you can use managed STL - so all of this could come together (other wise I think you'd have to use the old ugly MC++ syntax & interop w/ the unmanaged STL - which is as easy as a pragma in C++, but still somewhat of a pain).

  35. COONTAAAACT! by carabela · · Score: 1

    When I look at Microsoft that way, I think of the first Predator movie, with the well armed troops, shooting around at random, and hitting nothing.

    Poncho: Nowhere, not a fucking trace, no blood, no bodies, we hit nothing!

    --

    The more you know, the less you need. [Admin added: from me.]
  36. computers as infrastructure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In your brain-dead model of processors and computers they are only on desktops.

    Suppose the Government decides to place monitoring statins along the border with Mexico and they place, say, 10,000 of these at the cost of, say, 10,000 dollars a piece. So that is 100 million dollars.

    and then a few years in to this some flaw is discovered in the code. The solution is to upgrade the operating systems of these nodes.

    In your model they must replace the processors and motherboards.

    Capital equipment and infrastructure must have an upgrade path. Also it should be expected to last more than ten years. Why? Otherwise it is just a big fat boondoggle.

    M$ is a toy operating system and no serious captial equipment designer should even consider it. It is crap, insecure, and actually dangerous for our security. That is why there is such a push to not use it anymore.

    But the M$ people have so much damn money that they get their stuff approved because so many people have thier stock.

    hope you have that patched XP or else your machine is probably a drone owned by some eastern europoean script kiddie.

    Oh, and by the way, the cost of computer is also the cost of installing and running the computer. So if we are talking about capital equipment we want an operating system that is easy to install and upgrade. That is not the M$ one.

  37. Anti establishment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No. Anti-monopoly.

    Do you realize how much a spurious upgrade like the transition between the Dos 3 and Dos 4 cost the United States Military?

    Those thieves in Redmond were bleeding the government as fast as they could.

    M$ is a parasite and they are the true anti-establishment people.

    People work on open source because they don't want the future to be owned by trust fund brats who live off-shore and rule the world from their inherited spleder outside of any accountability.

    I spent my life learning computers only to be told that since I am not a brown-skined Indian upper-caste that I can't have a software job anymore because I am too expensive.

    But, hey, why do you need the people to be employed as long as you live in a walled community on an off-shore Island?

    M$ contributes to instability by creating a have and have-not class of people.

  38. Wrong perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WiX is a developer tool. Developer tools and their impact as open source is not comparable to user tools like Office.

  39. It would mean nothing by NatteringNabob · · Score: 1

    Unless they also gave out GPL compatible royalty free and nondiscriminatory licences to their entire patent pool, and that isn't goign to happen. MS Shared source is good for people that make kernel modules for Windows and sponsored researchers much like Sun's CDDL. Other than that it is much ado about nothing since you don't have a license to redistribute the derivative work.

  40. Hard to see it being that great by bheading · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I find it hard to see that Microsoft's license would be any more liberal than the one that Sun have used to open up Solaris 10.

    "Sure you can look at it, but you can't use it without relicensing your code under our license. And if we find our code in any of your work we'll sue you. "

    1. Re:Hard to see it being that great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      "Sure you can look at it, but you can't use it without relicensing your code under our license."
      And this is different from the GPL how? I tend to agree that these kind of restrictions are annoying...but the GPL says the same thing. Use this code and *your* code must be GPL'd.
  41. Microsoft opening up the Windows source code ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    ... That could never happen and you bloody well know it. Microsoft are there to make a profit and control the monopoly they have.

    I like analogies, so one could say that Microsoft opening up the Windows source code would be like Playboy printing articles and no more pictures.

  42. Mister Rodgers says by HomerJayS · · Score: 1

    Re: Stock price slip on MS moving to Open Source

    Can you say "Class-action Shareholders Lawsuits?"

    I knew that you could

  43. Open Source Foolishness by AutopsyReport · · Score: 0, Flamebait
    I just cannot wrap my head around the fecundity of open source software. The downfalls of it are so blatant and clear that I cannot understand how the majority of this community (and many others externally) is foolish enough to support

    Why would you spend your valuable time (unless it's invaluable to you... translation: time is money) researching and developing software which fits a niche, but give it away for absolutely free, on the hope that support will sustain your continuning R&D?

    To the consumer, it's a great choice. But to any entrepreneurial developers out there whose time has provided food and shelter to their families, why would you ever decide to offer your software for free?

    I've become so fed-up with the absurdity of the open-source movement, and how people claim everything should be open-source. Sure, that would work if life itself wasn't an expense. Living costs money, and any open-source supporter who thinks that offering their time and services for free will reap enough revenue to support a family and a decent life must be losing their minds.

    If you offer up a good product, people will pay good money -- this applies to Windows. As much as the majority of Slashdot is against Windows and Microsoft, the fact remainins it IS a very good product. That's the bottom line.

    I'll never offer my software or services for free, because my time is worth something to me. If I were to open source my work, then I'd sooner travel the world and spend money, then work my ass off and give it away for free.

    To keep this on topic: I hope Microsoft never goes in the open-source direction. Open source is doomed, but people are too busy gagging themselves on the thought that it's free.

    --

    For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother.

  44. Think Globally not locally. by RotateLeftByte · · Score: 1

    A significant portion of the world's population earns very little so $179 to them is an absolure fortune. Take Madagascar for instance. The per capita income per year is approx $200. Yes two hundred dollars a year. Most ofthe population for not have access to Electricity, Sewerage or clean drinking water. We in thr west take all these for granted.
    When I visited (for the 5th time) last november, I gave a gross of pencils to a school way out in the country. They were overjoyed. I had saved them lots of money.
    I visited a few internet cafe's. Most were running Win98 on 64Mb PII's. They were riddled with virii. I gave one operator copies of Spybot etc so he could clean up his systems. I got an email before christmas thanking me for my help.
    So, the request for XP+SP2 to run on "Ancient H/W" is perfectly valid. Get rid of the bloat!

    --
    I'd rather be riding my '63 Triumph T120.
  45. Re:That's because there is no value in Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    lol! I completely agree with you.
    And you're one of the first people on here that actually realises the real "value" of open source or linux.

    linux sucks, accept it.

  46. Open Source Windows would be bad move by OwlWhacker · · Score: 1

    I don't think that it would be wise for Microsoft to Open Source its software.

    Microsoft has suggested that opening its code to the world would be catastrophic, that open code means more likelihood of security breaches, and that security through obscurity is the best way to go.

    We see plenty of popular Open Source software, and access to its source code hasn't been catastrophic. It's obvious by now that Open Source itself isn't a security concern.

    Besides, it's funny that Microsoft is putting faith in security through obscurity, when crackers have been successfully exploiting Microsoft's software for years, even though they can't see the source code...

    With Open Source software, ensuring that the code is secure has had to be of high concern from the start - there is no security through obscurity. But Microsoft software was not developed with security in mind (as Microsoft itself has admitted - not that it needed to), and opening its millions of lines of flawed code to crackers could indeed be catastrophic.

  47. Internationalization at its worst by DF5JT · · Score: 1

    Just in case you were wondering why "WiX" is not going to be terribly popular in German speaking countries, imagine an SAP-release of a "jerkov"-module.

    "wi{x|chs}en" in German means "to jerk-off"

    1. Re:Internationalization at its worst by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Krouts can go wix themselves!

    2. Re:Internationalization at its worst by 5ynic · · Score: 1

      It's spelt Kraut, you dumbass yank.

      --
      ceci n'est pas un sig
  48. Re:Philanthropy? Moo! by OwlWhacker · · Score: 1

    Although it could gain the company a level of trust and support that it greatly needs, Microsoft would lose money by Open Sourcing Windows.

    Microsoft currently locks people into its products via proprietary APIs, file formats, and protocols.

    Microsoft is touting 'integration' as being a major bonus of using its software - something that the competition has been locked out of.

    Microsoft is relying on money generated by upgrades to maintain its cash flow, upgrades of Microsoft Office being one of the main sources of income. If the competition becomes compatible, and can offer the same level of integration, Microsoft has lost its 'strangle-hold'.

    Open Source is not good for Microsoft's cash-cows, and is totally against Microsoft's profitable business model.

  49. 'Moving in the direction of' OSS by dustmite · · Score: 1

    You've hit the nail on the head: Microsoft shares source as a PR move. They throw out what is really a few miniscule token gestures, but it generates a lot of goodwill, and makes people think they're not so bad after all. They're really just manipulating your view of them.

    MS also takes a bit of flak for keeping their source closed, and also some clients attempt to use OSS as a bargaining chip to drive down the price they get from MS. Also some clients DO value software being OS. Thus Microsoft also wants such clients to think that they are "moving in the direction of" OSS, i.e. they want you to think that they are "moving towards" OpenSourcing Windows etc., so that you perceive buying into Windows now as less of a risk, thinking that at some point in the future this product would possibly be opened. But Microsoft will never, ever open Windows or Office. It will never happen, because it would allow a bunch of competitors to spring up with Windows-compatible platforms and Office-format-compatible office suites, which would force MS to slash their margins. Their proprietary formats and platforms are the bedrock of their monopoly. They're not stupid.

    Under this "pseudo/pretend" "open" strategy, Microsoft intend to simply forever be in this perpetual state of "moving towards OpenSource" .. it may look like they are 'moving', but they will never reach the destination, and they know it.

  50. Use ReactOS by Steven+Edwards · · Score: 1

    Our ntoskrnl and hal is a close as you are going to get without having to sign a NDA for life.

    --
    Why clone Unix when I can clone Windows instead. http://www.reactos.org
  51. Oh, come on, that was funny! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    seriously

  52. The price of instability by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 1

    From the article:

    They can't afford the risk to the brand of instability (or the perception of instability) of the Windows or Office products with their enterprise customers.

    Funny. It was Microsoft's IE's closed-source that led to the hundreds of viruses, worms and whatnot that stained Microsoft's reputation...

    Of course, open sourcing Windows would be simply mad. But what about IE? Or the WORD DOC and Excel formats?

  53. Microsoft and Open Source in the Same Sentence by Master+of+Transhuman · · Score: 1


    What's wrong with this picture?

    For the clueless, let me explain something to you.

    Bill Gates cares about one thing and one thing ONLY: money. And he is FAR too greedy to see any way he can make the same money he is making now from open source. As I've said before, there is NO WAY Bill Gates will ever change his stance on this - EVEN if somebody could show him how to make MORE money from OSS. He's too big an asshole.

    ANY discussion of Microsoft doing open source is so ridiculous as to belong on the funny pages.

    Period.

    End of story.

    'Nuff said.

    --
    Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
    1. Re:Microsoft and Open Source in the Same Sentence by BubbaJonBoy · · Score: 1

      Methinks that power and prestige are missing from your equation. Money has been shown time and again to be a short term motivator.
      Regards,
      Jon

  54. Ah, but... by Roadkills-R-Us · · Score: 1

    I agree. I never expected MS to open source Windows or Office; that would, indeed, make we propose an expedition to Hell with thermometers.

    BUT... Why not open source VB6? And anything else they want to EOL. That would gain them a ton of (sometimes grudging) street cred in the OSS community.

    And make a *lot* of people happy, including some who are rather unhappy today.

  55. What Microsoft should do is by jonwil · · Score: 1

    NOT open source windows. (for the obvious reasons already mentioned).
    What they SHOULD do is to Open Source some of the userland components of windows. (such as Internet Explorer)

    By then taking the good patches back from the community, they get a better product without giving away the keys to the kingdom or hurting windows sales.

    Although if ReactOS ever gets to a point where it is usable for joe average, Microsoft better watch out... :)

  56. Re:Microsoft opening up the Windows source code .. by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

    > Microsoft opening up the Windows source code would
    > be like Playboy printing articles and no more
    > pictures.

    A better analogy would be Playboy dispensing with the printing of photos, and instead just sending you the negatives so you could make as many of your own prints as you liked.

    --
    Il n'y a pas de Planet B.