Slashdot Mirror
Making the Case For Short Games
Gamasutra has a feature up entitled Making a Case for Short Games, in which the author argues that a good short game is far and away preferable to attempt than an epicly long game. From the article: "Which would you rather play, a computer game that takes forty hours to complete or one that lasts just a few minutes? Don't be too quick to answer. The former asks for a serious time commitment. The latter says come and go as you please. One is a ball and chain. The other is a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card. Well, it's not exactly that bad but considering all of the things you have to do today, which type of game do you really have time for? Also, isn't it peculiar that when you complete a complex or lengthy game you rarely want to replay it, yet short games are often endlessly replayable? "
"Which would you rather read, a book that takes forty hours to complete or a short story that lasts just a few minutes? Don't be too quick to answer. The former asks for a serious time commitment. The latter says come and go as you please. One is a ball and chain. The other is a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card.
I like my epic games - no one forces me to play them in one weekend. A good long game is like a story that I can read/watch/take part in - all in my own pace.
This comment does not exist.
Long games might have more time to suck, but short games have less time to be worth the money you pay for them.
The best balance is games that can be beaten quickly, but take long times to complete 100%.
"Also, isn't it peculiar that when you complete a complex or lengthy game you rarely want to replay it, yet short games are often endlessly replayable?"
Not really. I'd say many more people play a 20-hour game once, than a five-minute game 240 times.
This space intentionally left blank.
The whole premise is flawed as soon as you introduce the radical concept of saved games, as you can shift your "commitment" to any point in the future, or put it off indefinitely.
The real commitment is where it takes a while to become familiar with a game or to get to the entertaining bits, and long-lasting games often aren't like this.
The brilliance of CS is the combo of only having 1 life, and really quick games.
If poeple are rushing (like they should) the game is won or lost in about 1 minute, over in no more than 2. Worst case it lasts 5.
Just enough sitting out to make dying painful, but quick enough turnaround that you don't want to leave.
It works way better than "die all you want" games like Unreal and Quake.
Actually, I sort of agree...
Both are used for different things, though. If I'm multitasking with a game, I often don't wnat to play a game that takes a lot of concentration or constant action, so a strategy game usually works. In that same train of thought, if I have a 15 minute spot of time, I boot up an arcade emulator and play a game or two of Magical Drop 3. NOw, I've probably spent about 10-15 hours in that game, but not for more than 30-45 minutes at a time.
If I have a day to blow, I won't start a game and then beat it 10 times, I'll take a chunk out of a large game. Each have their own place.
...(talking mainly about FPSs) there's no continuing GAMEPLAY innovation.
in comparison, I playing Resident Evil 4 on the Gamecube. I'm 20 hours in and have seen more varied gameplay styles and cool things than all the FPSs I've ever played put together.
it's probably one of the best games ever. I think it might have a little do do with the fact that you sell a console game once. with PC games there's a lot more effort getting it out of the door due to different systems, and you know you can just release an add-on pack 6 months down the line so creating great gameplay first time round isn't so important if you know you can lure people back with your engine eye-candy anyway (Doom 3, I'm looking at you.)
Absolutely brilliant, fairly original, well-made, engaging, simple arcade-ish games. I especially liked the fish-tank game and the one with the spiral tracks of balls that you shoot.
11*43+456^2
Back in the day when I had an Amiga and played lots of games on it, the ones I kept returning to were the ones I could play for an hour or two then leave again. There were a few good traditional shoot-em-ups, a few simple driving games (Lotus Esprit 2!), Moria, etc. These days I'd appreciate something similar a lot more than a more involved game as I simply don't have the time for anything overly involved - blame two jobs, a wife & baby for that.
Damien
The crucial question regarding game length for me in story-based game genres (whether the game be Adventure, RPG, Tactical RPG or even Story-Driven FPS) is simply, how long is the story content? The length of time spent in front of the screen is a comparatively trivial question, in estimating the value of the story as a whole, though I'd rather the game didn't consume time in front of the screen merely for the sake of consuming it, if the story isn't progressing.
A 100 hour game in which 90 of those hours consist of random encounters with generic enemies is ultimately a less epic story than a 30 hour game in which 25 of those hours consist of dialogue, story-telling and combat with meaningful characters.
It all depends on the game you are playing. I really wouldn't want to play Galaga for 22 hours, but that's how long RE: 4 took me and it was the perfect length for that game.
Some games are super short. I can flip open my DS and crack off 10 rounds of Warioware at a stoplight since each round is only 3 seconds long.
Some RPGs are really long. If something has an enjoyable story to it I can spend 40 hours in it without it feeling like it is a chore.
Think about that. Would you pay $50 for Minesweeper? No, but you'd pay that much for the latest Myst adventure. It doesn't matter that you'll only play Myst once and that you'll enjoy Minesweeper several times a week for the rest of your life. You'll never be able to convince people to pay $50 a pop for short games like you will for epic games.
The reality of the game market doesn't make the article wrong, just irrelevant. It doesn't matter which games are technically better, it matters which games sell.
Which would you rather have, a life that takes eighty years to complete or one that lasts just a few decades? Don't be too quick to answer. The former asks for a serious time commitment. The latter says come and go as you please. One is a ball and chain. The other is a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card. Well, it's not exactly that bad but considering all of the things you have to go through each day, which type of life will you really find worthwhile? Also, isn't it peculiar that when you near completion of a complex and lengthy life you rarely want it to dredge on any longer, yet short lives are often interesting and full of excitement, and endlessly repeatable if your religion allows?
For me, the answer is easy - the 40 hour game. Unless it's poorly designed, any modern game should be choppable into 5-15 minute increments via use of saved games.
Any game that can be completed within 5 minutes or less is also writable within 24 hours - it does not have much depth, and won't retain interest for very long unless it finds a way to snag a player (e.g. Tetris.)
(BTW, I don't consider a scrolling shoorter like Tumiki Fighers to be a 5-15 minute game, because the player needs to progress his skill to go through the entire game. )
At least in a game like Unreal or Quake you can just respawn and 'freelance' anyway you want. Those games are so arcadish as long as you don't stand still and shoot or go AFK on a 0 second auto-respawn server, chances are you'll end up with no worse than a 1:5 ratio. Throw in a bunch of dumb/average bots for extra guns and chaos and that ratio can turn into 1:1 ratio easily for a newbie.
Also, isn't it peculiar that when you complete a complex or lengthy game you rarely want to replay it, yet short games are often endlessly replayable?
... and Rogue.
Most of these (good) 40+ hour games are played at least two or three times by the owner, especially those in the RPG genre, which often have multiple approaches and often more than one ending (Knights of the Old Republic, Chrono Trigger, etc.). If you are evaluating a game, then, in terms of how much time you spend on it, you are talking 100-120+ hours for the long game; how often have you found a one-hour game that you would replay 120 times?
On the other hand, there will always be a place in my heart for the endlessly replayable 2-3 hour Master Of Orion II.
>> Standing on head makes smile of frown, but rest of face also upside down.
How about a compromise?
Let's have games that take a long time to complete, but can be enjoyed in very short sessions, on the order of five to ten minutes.
Platformers and driving games are usually good with this. Also, fighting games. Super Smash Bros. Melee and Soul Calibur II fit the bill quite nicely.
I haven't seen too many options in RPGs though - which would be REALLY FREAKIN NICE, especially in the MMORPG world. Somebody out there taking suggestions?
*I* want an epically long game that I can play in 5-10 minute chunks over the course of a friggin year!
... then clearly WarioWare is the best of them all!
The "Get Out of Jail Free" card refers to shorter games? Seems kind of, since that is from Monopoly, one of the longest board games ever created.
One man's Funny is another man's Offtopic.
Occasionally I like a short game - as short as Freecell.
However, I've played Fallout 1 & 2 over 40 times each *to completion*. My shortest game is around 10 hours. My longest is over 100 hours.
I *much* prefer a long game, that I can play *at my own pace*.
Some short classical games can keep depth throughout the years. Here I'm thinking about chess, go, and especially bridge. Though these games were available before computers, their computerized ports make it easy to find online partners for an half-hour session, any time of day.
Though I played bridge for several years now, I still feel like a newbie and will feel that way even when I'm retired - and that's the appeal. I can't imagine myself still playing Bard's Tale or Ultima IV several times a month; these long games lose their appeal after a while.
Feel ready to own one or many Tux Stickers?
PopCap games are VERY good short games.
Yay. Another Slash-vertisment. Or is that an adver-dot?
Rhapsody in Numbers
I'd rather do other things...
Only 'flamers' flame!
Does slashdot hate my posts?
I have played Morrowind, and all the GTA games, two or three times each. Like a favorite movie, even though I know what's going to happen I *love* the experience. Besides, each of those games is different every time I play.
Sure I don't play them as often as I would play a short game, but I still enjoy them immensely.
I'd say 10-20 hours. That's long enough to have a good story and a certain amount of complexity, but it's also short enough that you can replay it several times without spending a year on it.
I know that when I play RPGs, I sometimes feel like I'm missing out. I spend 80 hours playing a warrior, which means that I'm missing out on playing a rogue, a priest, or a mage. I don't really want to spend 320 hours playing the same RPG, so I get to play every class. If the game is only 10-20 hours long, then I can spend about 60 hours and I'll get to experience the game from several different perspectives.
Plus, most really long games get repetitive after a while. Once you get about 15 hours into a game, you've discovered 95% of the game mechanics, so you're just going to repeat the same things for another several dozen hours.
I often don't like small games because they have no depth. If you take some of the Popcap games, like Bejeweled, you'll see that there isn't much complexity or strategy to them. Those types of games get very repetitive; your 50th hour will have the same gameplay as your 1st hour.
Once you get into competitive multiplayer games, however, things start to shift. 2-5 minute games can be fun, because you can play so many games in a row that you can try dozens of different strategies and situations. If you're losing, then the game will be over quickly, so you can start afresh. On the other hand, hour long games can be fun, because you can spend large amounts of time plotting methodically against your opponent, only for a game to come down to one huge climactic battle.
Okay, I'm lying a bit. I like to play tactic-games like Command and Conquer and so forth for a couple of hour against friends.
... and you didn't finish those games in the first 200 hours.
On the other hand, at the moment, I'm paying FreeCiv in my 60th hour - and to be quite frank, I don't think I'll be finished before spending a couple of hundred hours there.
But the greatest game(s) of all time was Ultima 7 Part I and Part II
"Rune Kristian Viken" - http://www.nwo.no - arca
If I'm looking to waste five minutes, I'll play DDR. It's not very filling, but it's kind of a fun distraction.
If I'm looking to waste an hour or two, I'll play a round of Warcraft. This is a little more interesting, but still mostly a distraction.
If I'm looking to waste a weekend, I'll play an FF or other long single-player RPG. I will get much, much more out of this than playing DDR all weekend. A good RPG story makes you think, makes you laugh and cry, etc. There's something cathartic about it, and you come out feeling emotionally refreshed.
Few people look back at 40 hours of DDR (or Counter-Strike, Warcraft, etc.) with the kind of emotional attachment that a good RPG can bring.
This is not to say that short games don't have their place. I wouldn't trade in DDR for another RPG. I guess my point is that it's like comparing cars to airplanes and concluding that cars are always better.
You hear this crap all the time from whiney game reviewers who get all their swag for free. They bitch and moan and write essays about how long it takes to finish games these days, all because they they have to get through it to finish their review in time for that deadline.
Nothing is more moronic than someone like this trying to convince us that we need to shell out more and more money for shorter and shorter games.
He obviously doesn't get reality. You know what I do with an expensive game that takes 5 hours to complete? I pirate it. (I'm looking at you Max Payne 2!) On the other hand, I'm first in line to buy a game that gives you your money's worth.
Seems like a strange argument to say that one is better. That said, there are a lot of epic-length games out there, and it's kind of sad that shorter-lengthed games are no longer as popular as they once were.
A neat mix of the two, though, is really refreshing. Puzzle Pirates and Sid Meier's Pirates, for instance, mix the short-term gratification from quick games, with long-term careers. (strange that they're both Pirates games, but whatever) Kart Rider (think Mario Cart, but a Korean online version) also has found a niche for itself -- the races are short, but you can play as many as you want.
It's also a lot of fun playing old Nintendo games that have short durations but gradually increasing difficulties (Super Spike Volleyball, for instance).
But one being better than the other? Can't imagine a short-duration game doing for you what Final Fantasy 7 does...
I don't mind games that take a while to complete (after all, I can still play it decently, just over a longer period, right?). What I hate are games which do the following:
* No easy quest tracking or other goal tracking
coupled with
* A play granularity which is around 2 hours.
Most of the games that are above the 10 hour completion time rating are like this; once you put them down, when you get back to them you realize you don't remember what you were doing. Few games do have a notes on what happened, and a list of what's happening next (Kotor did support this! It made it very excellent to play). Warcraft 3 is great because I can hit F9 and see the quests (hell, any Blizzard game is good for quest tracking).
The play granularity thing is another issue. I may not have 2 or 4 hours to play a game in one stretch. I'm not a big fan of games where I can't just save and quite at any point, or games where if I do get in, it takes me a good 2 hours to get anywhere in it. Games with specific save points (Resident Evil) require premeditated play time. IE: I pick an afternoon to sit down and go ahead and get from one logical point to another. In a game like Warcraft 3, I can just save at any point, and resume later.
There are a lot of great games, but there are fewer great games that make themselves easy to enjoy. Lower penalties for platformers (which I've noticed tend to be geared towards the younger gamers, many of whom seem to have infinite patience which I no longer have; losing an hour of 'work' is painful -- replayed game segments are not fun, generally!), better quest tracking, easy save/resume, all contribute to something I can do in my work schedule.
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
The "problem" (a lot of players I talk to try to downplay this) with CS though is the fact that if you rush 'like they should' and you get killed early on, its VERY frustrating for players to watch a match drag on for 2~5 minutes because of some sniping campers on both sides of the team.
The key to this, while it is somewhat time-consuming, is to find servers that are administrated. Generally, admins don't like waiting for campers as much as the rest of us. Also some servers stress anti-camping with plug-ins or short round times. If you like quick rounds, play on smaller servers. The more players in a game, the greater the chance that someone is a loser camper.
Also, CS isn't all about rushing; there can be as much strategy as a chess match. Attrition is a useful tactic, and by rushing you are playing into the enemy's strategy. Don't get me wrong, if it gets excessive, find a new server. The ONLY way you will be somewhat successful in rushing constantly is if you have a team that is going the same way you do.
On some maps is possible to run into the enemy within 20 seconds of the match
In a majority of maps this is the case. The key is to use teamwork (where available) and strategy. If you are constantly getting overrun, then temporarily camp until the initial threat of a rush has passed. If you rush and die, learn from your mistakes, or you are doomed to repeat them. Don't rush alone unless you have the ability to handle multiple defenders.
Eventually, it all boils down to a bunch of nameless, faceless people you've just met online.
Once again this boils down to your choice of servers. Once you find a good server, keep coming back. Clan servers are especially good for this (as long as they aren't immature kids; its a mixed bag.) If you don't care about what server you play on, then you WILL only play with nameless, faceless people.
At least in a game like Unreal or Quake you can just respawn and 'freelance' anyway you want
Sure, if 'freelance' gameplay is all you want. In CS its very tough to do very well all by yourself unless you are very good. I for one, enjoy working as a team, with like-minded people. Again, clan servers are your best bet if you are 'server surfing'.
I agree - that game is crack on a DS...
Stupid little games are fun as all get out.
Yes I have half-played some games, and I have even thrown games away after half an hour. Some games are just not fun, or get you stuck on a not-so-fun level at some point. (And yes, I won't point and laugh, I _hated_ both N64 Zeldas too. I quit Ocarina Of Time after 15 minutes.)
It still doesn't say basically "long games are bad", which is the flawed premise of that article. In reality, some games can be long and very good, yet others can be short and awful.
And yes, the grandparent post is right: once you have saved games, the whole premise of that article becomes flawed. Because the premise was basically "waah, but what if I have to do something later, and this game is too long to fit in? I can't commit that much time to a game." _That_ is the flawed premise.
And with saved games that's a straw-man. I've been known, for example, to squeeze in 15-30 minutes of some game before I go to work. I've never had to think "naah, I only have half an hour, so I'll play solitaire" yet.
No, of course it doesn't strengthen the commitment, but it makes it possible. Just because a game took me 70 hours to finish (e.g., "Persona 2: Eternal Punishment") or a whole month to finish (e.g., "The Elder Scrolls: Arena"), it doesn't mean it had to be in one go, without pause, without sleep, without doing anything else.
Or let's take your argument about half-played games. Would it have been that much better if the game had only the first mission? Yay, you've stolen the first car (or whatever you do in GTA), the game is over. How many times would you have replayed that?
By contrast, I can think of games which were long and had a story, but were complex enough and fun enough to be worth playing again. E.g., Fallout 2. E.g., KOTOR.
Now I could see the author's post if he picked on the distinction between abstract games (like Solitaire, Pac Man or Tetris) vs story-driven games. Anything story-driven is inherently less replayable: you already know the story. Same as with a movie, really: you can watch a good movie again, but noone sane can see the same movie 200 times.
But arguing that it's length that makes a game replayable or not -- or even playable the first time for that matter -- it's such a bogus straw man, it's not even funny.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Yeah. If Tetris took 40 hours, it would suck.
If Knights of the Old Republic took 5 minutes it would also suck.
All depends on context, the gamer and the game.
Something tells me someone needed to fill space on a gaming web site. Probably was playing Minesweeper too much before a deadline.
Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt = [citation required]
> Also, isn't it peculiar that when you complete a complex or lengthy game you rarely want to replay it
I finished GTA Vice City (*) 3 times, the original Deus Ex 9 times, and Deus Ex - Invisible War 5 times. All of them are extremely long games, especially Vice City, and I still want to finish them a couple more times.
Finally I am not even a gamer, just play for fun when I feel like doing it, but the games I like are games for life.
(*) = Killed Sonny Forelly.
I like games that have instant action. In UT2004 i love this option to just push up my level toward Godlike by just playing a couple quick rounds every now and then.
I think there's some RTS games that have this as well. You just can play a quick map instead of (part of) a campaign.
Sample this!
Nethack takes a very long time to complete, but you can save the game at any time, and has enough replayability that I'm still playing it nearly two decades after I first found it. And I know I'm not alone!
:)
It may be somewhat the exception to the rule, though.
Overall, I think they have a moderately valid point, but I think it's more of a guideline than a rule, and probably varies somewhat from person to person. I find a fair amount of replayability in Civ-style games and TBSers (at least the ones that don't have a completely lame AI).
I also have to say that while I have played a fair amount of solitaire and tetris over the years, I really don't enjoy 'em quite as much as a good TBS. They're more something to do when I'm tired and distracted and don't want to have to think much. The same reason I sometimes find myself watching cartoons.
Most games (even, say, Black and White which tried to 'break the mold') have LEVELS.
What I want are long games with short LEVELS. I don't mind playing a game for 40 hours if it can consistently fit some goal into an hour or less of gameplay.
That's your target. Can a busy geek complete a level in the time between making dinner and watching prime time TV. Hit that sweet spot, make a million dollars, buy a ferrari.
Holy crap. So someone has to "do all this crap you listed" to have fun?
Quake and Unreal allow anyone to pop in and have some fun. No special requirements, less work, you know, fun.
I read short magazine articles as well as 1000 page books. If someone told me that publishers should stop printing books because people really just want to read magazines, I'd call them crazy.
I probably don't even need to say it, but, c'mon. Games can be long, not require a huge time committment, and be endlessly replayable.
Sure make shorter in play time games, but don't still charge the consumer $50-$60 for them.
If a 30+ hour game can be finished in less than 30 minutes, which category does it go in?
you can download the movie to see for yourself.
No hacked character, no "bad" exploit, but I would say that getting to 9000 intel is a bit abusive.
Nouvelles de jeux et technologies en français. TC
Did anyone notice that this was less of an article about shorter games and more of an advertisement for / history of one particular game?
Given the overabundance of long, yet boring games, short games are my preference. One of my favorites allows you to "Explore the galaxy...in 20 minutes or less!" http://www.digital-eel.com/sais/
I like em long. Why would he even make an argument about this? There are short games and long games both available. This is like "making the case for taller cheesburgers" or something. It's nonsense.
We don't inherit the earth from our parents. We borrow it fom our children.
I disagree and I'm decent at both. Visually coordinating a target with a single action is common between the use of either tool, mouse or non-automatic gun.
In this case, the more important issue is that the individual in question has the ability to quickly distinguish the targets from the rest of the environment while also correctly interpreting that environment to find future targets.
Both tools also have the identical limitation that once you perform the action with the sensitive trigger, you are committed to it. Whether you pulled the trigger when aiming at your foot or you clicked the 'Okay' button to format your harddrive, you can't take that action back.
In certain situations (ie. prone position using a barrel support with static targets), the two tools are exactly alike - point and click.
This is not my sig.
This is what a lot of game review sites seem to lack in reporting (they do it, but giving an epic RPG 10 out of 10 for "replayability" doesn't seem accurate 90% of the time). Games like Sim City 4 or strategy games like Galactic Civilizations or Command and Conquer * seem to offer the most in this respect, or online games of almost any sort.
The big RPG games are fun, but I'm always tempted to buy them and sell them, or simply rent them. In the end, I just don't buy most. It's the big replay factor of other games, combined with either the fact that it gives you the ability to improve your skills and ramp up the difficulty as you like (taking on harder opponents online, or increasing the difficulty level), or the sheer fun and creativity of a sandboxing game like Sim City, that really draw me into games like that.
Me, I'm not a huge RPG fan though. I don't treat games as I do books, I like to "make my own story", or just have fun for awhile.
What about Grand Theft Auto 3/VC/SA? To complete the story missions it's typically 20-30 hours and to get 100% it can be hundreds, and yet they're still endlessly replayable...
WHO NEEDS SHIFT WHEN YOU HAVE CAPSLOCK/ DAMN1
A long game that you can play in short episodes would logically have the most appeal. A good example would be Puzzle Pirates. You have a large scale simulated world, but the cations you perform are short puzzles. CS has a similar element. You have short intense sessions, but the money element transfers between sessions. The problem with realy long games (Morrow Wind, NWN etc) is that the casual player will be left cold. I know very few people that will play NWN in a lunch hour, but lots of people are willing to play solitaire or minesweeper. So maybe a way to get more casual players, is to break a long game into realy short events or episodes that can be played in 5 min and stil advances the overall global plot.