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After College, What Type of Jobs Should One Seek?
Sushant Bhatia asks: "I'm coming to the end of my Masters degree, and I'm on the prowl for jobs. However, there are so many types out there it's just overwhelming for someone who's never had to go through the job-hunting process before. So, what should I do? Should I go for a full-time, contract, half-time, or something else? Also, what kind of position should a person with a Master's in Computer Science be looking for (other than dish washer)? I've been looking at senior software developer positions, but is that too high up the ladder for someone 'fresh' to cope with? My current manager (research lab) says that 'You should always find a job that is above your skill level so that you can learn and be challenged.' I think he's right, but is that something Slashdot readers agree with? What was your job coming out of university?"
I hear Wal-Mart is always looking for shelf stockers
Or learn "would you like fries with that?"
UTF-8: There and Back Again
Straight goods:
There's always a need for network people and sysadmins. With the shift from Windows/Proprietary Unix to Linux/*BSD you should concentrate on jobs in those areas, they're booming (I get at least 2 offers a month). If you stick to the Windows side of things you're going to be in a rut of helping users reboot and install patches. If you stick to proprietary Unix you can still do well in some high end research or data center work but cheap clusters are eating the bottom end out of some of that market.
Don't expect a senior position. Frankly too many hot-shot grads think they're The Goods; NONE are. If you can't translate your book smarts to real world work then you're destined to a life at a help desk.
That's how it is around here (I'm based in SoCal with work in 8 data centers around the country and 4 internationally) and I've been in the field since 1988.
I think CEO is a nice place to start. If you can't get that then maybe settle for COO or Vice President. You've spent too long in school to settle for anything less. Remember always get a job that is above your skill level, it makes life more fun!
Don't worry if your competent or not, your boss will be the judge of that.
However if you would like to be not in an uncertain position you better find out your interest and competents.
Perhaps getting in contact with a good headhunter is not that bad of an idea, but hey who am I telling if get a Msc. CS you could figure that out by yourself.
I hear a P.h.D is nice this time of year. Put off entering the "real world" as long as possible.
Be better in bed. Wikiafterdark!
Go self-employed! It's the best. :) All you need is a great idea and motivation.
I've never worked for anyone in my life. Got a flexible schedule and can do whatever I want.
Most people here are kids working at McDonald's or aging, overweight geeks living in their parents basement.
My advice, listen to all the +5 comments, and do the exact opposite.
Apparently one which does not require much decision making.
I think you should be very careful - I can't imagine many companies wanting to hire a fresh graduate into a Senior position, there are a lot of experienced professionals out there looking for work, and all the graduates are generally looking to step into a junior software developer positions.
If you aim for unrealistic goals, then you must be prepared to fail, if you do want to go for the senior positions on the off-chance you hit lucky, make sure you also apply for the junior positions elsewhere.
To be honest, just working in a corporate environment should be a challenging learning experience for most graduates, it's completely different to how you will have worked in college. Once you have mastered the basic work-place skills and proven your worth then you will be in a position to move on to more challenging roles.
I would agree that it is best to find a job that you will learn in and be challenged, but the way to do this is to have a lot of applications out there, a number of offers in the bag after interviews, then you choose the most interesting/challenging one. Don't be afraid of accepting positions as they come in, and then "resigning" them before starting if you get a better offer from another company. the companies are pretty strict on making sure they have the right candidate out of many, and if you get the opportunity then you should make sure you pick the best company out of many.
Get your first foot on the ladder, then set your own pace for progression - be on the lookout for stagnation though, if you find yourself getting bogged down in a position, bored and unchallenged, go shopping for a new job.
Hope that helps!
-- Pete.
Monochrome - Probably the UK's largest internet BBS
From someone who is in the industry, stay away from games. You are only signing yourself up for long hours for lackluster compensation.
--P
What's a sig? Pete Brubaker
That's the key, and a degree doesn't help you much. A degree gives an employer a fair indication that you have a decent level of knowledge and can work reasonably hard. But it doesn't tell them that you'll be able to plan a software project or write code that's easy to maintain.
If you apply for a job and they have a choice between you and someone with more real world experience, odds are pretty good they won't choose you. So, fresh out of college, your choices are limited. Basically, check the job listings and apply for anything which isn't asking for more experience than you've got. There are other things to consider, of course, but that's the major one. They pretty much have to be looking for a fresh graduate.
It's "Master's," not "Masters." See wikipedia entry.
It doesn't look particularly impressive on a resume if you can't even write your educational credentials correctly. Yes, these are small things, but we are nerds, and for nerds small things like this matter. If we weren't obsessive about details, our programs wouldn't compile, and we wouldn't be who we are.
Of course, Slashdot moderation being what it is, the parent will probably end up with a +5 moderation, and then what do you do?
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
If you're coming straight from university, you can do much worse than a few years of full time employment. Pay off those depts, gain some valuable experience so that people will take you seriously, it'll help you with what ever you may want to do later in life.
As for what sort of employment, I'm biased because I work in it, but I think the Mobile Phone software industry is very up and coming right now, its where all the excitment is going to be in the next few years.
That's one way to prove yourself and learn all the parts of a business directly. Or rotate through divisions of a larger company that involve marketing, product design, business development, channel relations, advertising, tech support, etc. If you take this approach, one thing is for sure: you won't wind up a tax-and-spend Democrat. (!)
http://tinyurl.com/4ny52
You're asking the wrong question. You should first sit down and ask yourself what interests you and what you would enjoy doing for a living. Maybe you dig airplanes so you want to get a job working on the computer systems on new planes from Boeing. Or maybe you like security software so go find a job at Symantec. You get the point.
After you've figured out what interests you, go talk to alumni from your school who work in the industry you're heading into. Ask them how they like their job, what salary expectatios you should have with your experience etc.
Whatever you end up doing, make sure you enjoy it. Good luck job hunting! I hope you land somewhere interesting and enjoyable.
Don't you kids have guidance counselors or advisors or anything? Find a job you think would be fun! Or find a job that will allow you to save up to switching to something fun.
[o]_O
Senior level positions are reserved for individuals who have commensurate experience and education, only one of which you have (and, even though you say you have a masters degree, I don't know if its a masters in culinary arts from the Wassamatta U, or a Comp Sci degree from MIT.)
If you shoot for a Senior level anything position, you better know, and I mean KNOW your shit, because by that point, they are looking for people to get things done, rather than learning things. You might do well to start at a I or II level position, and work (and I do mean WORK) your way up. I started at a I and in less than a year, got promoted (with a consider raise) to a II level by proving myself beyond just doing what was necessary.
Hades, PoD: Official Advocate
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The first question you may need to answer is whether learning is your favorite hobby. If so, then go get a challenging job and join the corporate rat race. Keep in mind that the larger your company and division, the more backstabbing and politics you'll deal with.
If learning isn't your favorite hobby, then put together a list of all the stuff you like to do. Do you like to travel? Mountain bike? Scuba dive? If that's what you enjoy, then go work in that field. Believe it or not, you can find good-paying tech jobs (or just about anything else) in each of those areas. If you like to travel, look on Lonely Planet's web site for jobs. If you like to ride bikes, then check out the website of a bike manufacturer to see if they're hiring.
I worked for a small company for about 3 years and had a lot of fun doing sys admin work. It was a great learning experience and at that point in my life I enjoyed learning just about more than anything.
Then I decided I'd go skiing. Now I get paid to work for a ski resort doing IT work. In the winter I get anywhere between 40 - 100 days of skiing in. I'm actually sort of getting bored of skiing now, so I'm thinking sitting on a beach in Thailand is what I'll do. I just need to get paid for it.
You'll also need to weigh whether the greed of $$$ will override where you want to live. Ideally you'll live and work exactly where you want to. However, you might be tempted to move across the country to a place you hate just to make money.
----- obSig
I've been looking at senior software developer positions, but is that too high up the ladder for someone 'fresh' to cope with?
Depends on where you work. I worked for several years after college and then went back to school full time for an advanced degree. At least in my experience, there's a world of difference between what the senior software engineers did and the kind of development that I do in grad school.
Most academic types don't have to worry about making their code bulletproof, "productizing" it, requirements documents, tech specs, working with UI folks, working with QA folks and bug DBs, or coding to a schedule as part of team. Then there's talking to customers, putting out fires and doing damage control when something breaks. And depending on how senior you are, there may be managing a budget and managing devs under you. (Then you may get to deal with HR for hiring, firing and performance evaluations.) It's much more rigorous and often very different from the sort of speculative, independant exploratory development that takes place at grad school.
I'm not trying to put down grad school (I wouldn't be back if I didn't think it had value), but someone who's never worked in the commercial sector will lack a lot of the real-life experience that senior engineers there need. And an advanced degree is not a substitute.
otherwise how do you know what the folks you're managing are supposed to be doing?
Likewise, how will you know what the folks who are managing are doing wrong? The best way to learn is from your mistakes. The safest way is to learn from someone else's.
The world's only surviving livewriter.
If you've never been on the job market before, any kind of job related to computers will be ample "new", trust me. Dealing with people, your boss, your coworkers, your ideas, their ideas, meetings, marketing, arg... it's not easy! And it's something you need to _learn_.
Go to work at a big company first. That way you will be exposed to plenty of negative examples.
For instance: The coder who wouldn't check-in for five weeks at a time, and then say their hard drive crashed. When the source control admin would go to reconstruct their work, they found there had only been 10 lines of code completed during that period. After this happened three times running, the company wised up and fired his ass.
Then there's the guy we called "PhD" -- which stood for "personal hygiene deficit". A good example of why some people shouldn't eat at their desks.
At a large bank in Charlotte, there was the eternal project -- every time a new Senior Vice President got hired, the project got reincarnated as his personal vision of how the code should work. I expect they still haven't delivered anything, 12 years later.
Chip H.
I think you're asking the wrong question here. When you're just getting out into the "real world," you need to focus on finding a position that's going to make you the happiest, not the one that looks the best on paper.
Look at the type of culture, the location, the history of the company, the people they hire, their strategy for success, even their reputation among their competitors. Are these the types of people you want to work with or for? Do you love working in the boonies, or is a downtown location more enjoyable? Does your excite you? Would you rather work for Porsche or Ford? Microsoft or Mozilla? Wal-Mart or Nordstroms?
When you're young you have the luxury of relatively little excess baggage. You probably don't have a mortgage, wife, children, or outrageous car payments (yet). You can move, change careers, and take risks that may not be as easy when you are committed.
This is arguably the last time you will ever be able to truly consider a variety of positions and select the one that best fits you. The next time you start looking, you'll have other concerns that will impact your decision.
If you like to tinker or play with fun new technology, then a boutique shop (smaller shops focused on one particular area/technology) or a commercial research lab might be a good choice. If you like to travel and wear expensive shoes, then you might look into consulting. If you just want to program, then try to find a company whose story you can really dig into. Don't rule anything out until you really know, because some of the best jobs are lying in unexpected places.
I've seen many people go 12-18 months in a job and absolutely hate it. Maybe you will too, but chances are there's a company looking for people just like you. A company that will meet all of your requirements and keep you happy too. That's where you want to work.
Your search might not be easy. You may have to relocate far away. You'll have to find the balance of incentives that suits you best (location, hours, benefits, compensation, etc). Digits on a paycheck can only cure a handful of ailments, none of them fatal.
Technicalities like tax (which is the driving factor behind W2 vs 1099) should only play a factor when trying to decide between two equally attractive positions or if you have extenuating circumstances (insurance, for example). If you let them guide you to a position, you'll likely end up somewhere you'd rather not be.
-R
Cupstacking is for real. You can become famous if you beat Emily Fox , the worlds fastest cup stacker.
...believe it or not, real-world experience is very different than academic experience.
I have a great deal of real-world experience now, and a degree as well. When I graduated, I started at entry-level positions and worked my way up. It works.
Recently, I worked with a guy who had a masters in computer science from a well-known accredited state college. And he wasn't an idiot. However, he also wasn't ready for the real world. His troubleshooting thought process needed a great deal of refinement, and his ability to deliver the kind of requirements necessary in the kinds of time-frames necessary just wasn't up to par (yet). During the year that I worked with him, I saw his skills improve (as one would expect). In another several years, he may be senior-position material. But not until he has the experience under his belt.
I am not saying college is easy, nor that the education is valueless. I AM saying that graduates, precisely because of their lack of experience, have an unrealistically high opinion of their own abilities, and often make the sorts of costly (and embarrassing) mistakes that more experienced programmers don't make.
So there's my opinion.
Let me apologize up front for how vehemently I'm going to disagree with you.
No. I mean no. For the love of God, No! Have you lost your bloody mind?! NO!
Don't. Ever. Work. For. Free. You might as well wear a sandwich board that reads "My time is worthless and I'm so naive that I believe an idea put forth by suits looking to recruit cheap, easily-abused labor. I'm beyond desperate, so please, pay me some lowball chump change."
Take a lesson from the marketers. People honestly believe that a thing is worth what you paid for it. If you ever work for someone for free, you'll never convince them to pay top dollar for your services.
You wouldn't believe how much my life has improved since I learned to look them right in the ye without blinking and say "You're right. I compete on quality, not price. To be honest, these are my prices if I design and implement. If I have to go through the headache of fixing someone else's mistakes, I charge a 20% premium."
You'd be amazed at how that one little statement/attitude improves your world. You never have to deal with those neurotic not-worth-the-trouble PITA clients, and the rest come to the job with a "he's expensive, he must know what he's doing" mentality.
So long as you can deliver the goods, it's a far more satisfying way to run your business.
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
I think that's optimistic. In some industries, it may well be true, but not computing. In this business, you take a guy with two years' professional development experience over a guy with two more years' academic experience for any non-research development position, because the proven track record and practical skills easily outweigh the same length of time invested in research and theoretical skills.
Higher degrees are good if you want to do research, or as a possible advantage later in your career, but everyone starts on the first rung or two of the ladder. As the parent post suggests, you're never getting up to the senior rungs right from the start no matter how good your academic record may be.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2005/june15/ jobs-061505
>I hope you don't get a "senior" level position.
The worst thing about that would be, moving into a senior position that the people below you didn't get promoted to.
Getting the job will be a lot easier than getting their respect.
Management has a whole different dynamic. People won't resent you for getting hired as a manager, but they sure will, if you fill some "senior" developer opening that the company didn't fill from the current pool.
You really don't want to be in a workplace where your whole team resents you because you got hired on your credentials where they did not get promoted on their experience.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
After graduating with a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science, I was very fortunate to have been noticed by a recruiter of a large software company and through him, I was hired into a software development job that I love so far and that I will stick with as long as I can. However, I do know very well that things don't often turn out as nicely. I have many friends, most about as qualified as I am, that did not have it so easy and spent a very long time going through interviews and much frustration to find a respectable job. What I have learned from what they went through and from being in a demanding software development job for a couple of years can be summed up in the following- never give up and never sell yourself short. Job searching is a very difficult and trying process, and it requires lots of self-confidence and patience. Aim for the highest position and try to get into the exact field you are most interested in (since you will probably be most successful there anyway) and be very forward and direct about it. Someone in a previous post mentioned that employers' decisions are most affected by the image you portray of yourself, and nothing portrays a stronger image than a high level of self-confidence and a strong love and enthusiasm for what you do. If you truly love what you do, try to maintain this attitude for as long as possible and try very hard not to be discouraged by initial failure. By following this, and by using anyone you may know in any capacity who is in any position to help you, your chances of landing a great job will dramatically increase. Things are tough right now, but keep your chin up!
Don't search for jobs at all. Incorporate yourself and find a business mentor, by asking around at your school's small business office - most good schools should have one. Call your alum affice and ask if any alum has offered to be a mentor in their field.
Make yourself up some business cards, and have at it! Starting a business is pretty easy, and if you work hard at it one can be a lot more successful than simply working for someone else.
Get an HSA (health savings account) with a small business association, and start a Roth IRA immediately.
In an interview in Inc. 500 a few years back, many hiring managers said that prior ownership of a tech business (even if it failed miserably) immediately put someone at the top of the list for a lead technical position or management.
Good luck!
'Be always mindful, even when ditch-digging.' --D. T. Suzuki
I've been looking at senior software developer positions, but is that too high up the ladder for someone 'fresh' to cope with?
You have how many tens of thousands of dollars in education over how many years and you don't understand the meaning of the word "senior"?
It takes discipline to do that. Also, it helps to have some experience working for somebody else, especially if you need to get capital to start something (bank loan, investments).
Irene KHAAAAAAN!
Cupstacking is for real. You can become famous
Where by "famous" I assume you mean "as famous as Emily Fox."
This is serious advice. Don't put your dreams on hold until your career has been well established. If you do, you'll wake up one morning years or decades down the road and it will be too late.
After I finished in college, I became a musician - something I always wanted to do. This evolved into running a recording studio. I also worked in the theatre - because I always wanted to act too! The skills I learned in these professions have stood me well to this day. About 5 years out of college, I got my first "conventional" job.
Now, in my early forties, my career is where I want it to be. I'm still trying new things but staying within the ball park of my qualifications and experience.
Some of my peer group who left school and immersed themselves immediately and deeply into their career paths are now hitting their mid-life crises with varying consequences.
So, find a comfortable place along the spectrum which has career/salary/prospects at one end and reckless abandon at the other.
Good luck to you and remember - don't rely on the advice of strangers...
Backward%20compatibility%20is%20over-rated
The only reason I looked in this discussion was to make sure that someone had made this statement. Now, I'll second it. All college does is to prepare you to learn. In your first few years in the real world, you should prepare yourself to learn several times as fast as you did in college because now you don't have the hindrance of mass education and can learn as an individual.
I've heard it said that we should count someone with a Masters as having a BS+2 years of experience. That would still not place one as a senior. And, frankly, I don't see the 2 years of experience aspect. I think those that got out with the BS and worked for 2 years probably learned the equivalent of at least 4 years at a college pace as long as they truly dove into a development job.
Even with a masters degree, sonsider yourself a student for at least a year or two after you get out of school. Even if you have every ability to be a senior programmer (I doubt it) you don't want to be one. The absolute most important thing you want from a job is to have people around you who are willing and able to teach.
I consider much of my first year out of school to have been a waste. Sure, I was given my own (important) projects and learned three languages I hadn't used before. That's great. But as some of my projects progressed it started to become apparent to me that while I could make this stuff happen and my boss was happy, I just didn't know my shit enough and needed mentoring. I wasn't getting that at that job and so I bailed out and found work elsewhere.
Where I ended up was perfect. My first month or two was kinda miserable as I learned that not only did I need mentoring, I was way behind where I thought I was. But I learned a lot and had every line of code I wrote reviewed and critiqued. On my first solo project there, I ended up rewriting the thing about three times. You learn a lot from that.
Your goal is to find a teacher who will appreciate the talents you've picked up in your masters program. I've been doing a lot of consulting and been in a number of companies. My heartfelt recommendation is that you get into a small company where the people are passionate.
Yes, yes. A Liberal Arts degree is horrible. You'll never get a job with one, you'll never get anywhere. However, in my group of college friends, only one of the six of us obtained a CS degree, another a biology degree, and the remaining four obtained degrees in Archeology, Political Science + Economics, International Relations, and Business. Fifteen years later three of us work in the computer industry (in a technical capacity, not as marketers), one is a doctor, one runs a construction business, and one is a real estate agent. None of us has ever beeen involuntarily out of work for more than a month or two.
Your mileage may of course vary, but the idea that a Liberal Arts degree instantly leads to a job at the Golden Arches is a bit overdone in my opinion.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
I do have a Computer Science degree, and that's actually what I do. I enjoy the troubleshooting and breadth of experience that you can get fixing machines. No two problems are exactly the same and it's fun to be challenged (and there's no point in being a snob about it).
In actuality, I'm the "computer guy" for a small business and keep everything running. I do networking, hardware, and software (don't write too much code, but do enough little thinks to keep it interesting). I also do the IT roadmap and make many of the business decisions related to IT. A nice little trade off for not being a ComSci bigot.
I think that the most important thing to do is to do something that you enjoy. I've found that I enjoy what I do (so much so that I do some of the same thing after hours - a "small business" is a hobby that pays :) ) - as presumably you enjoy doing what you do.
A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
I have a buddy, over 50 I have to add, that was about ready to head over to Sandia for a job, but then a new guy took over and decided that he'd hire 4.0s out of college instead of seasoned veterans. I guess he's going to get what he paid for... he may as well have outsourced his development for the hassle he's going to have with the kids.
Another buddy said of the current crop of kids, "bright, cannot program, big egos." Only good if they can put in the 80 hours that I hear kids out of school and without families can do.
If I were a hiring manager, and I've been there before but not for this job, and told to hire codemonkeys out of school, I'd ask them if they ever took a projects (software engineering) course, and what they thought about it as far as it being something that they'd like to do, say, for the rest of their professional lives.
DT
Is this thing on? Hello?