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Royal Society Finds Lost Newton Papers

Quirk writes "The Royal Society has a story on a Lost Newton manuscript rediscovered. From the article: 'The notes are written about alchemy, which some scientists in Newton's time believed to hold the secret for transforming base metals, such as lead, into the more precious metals of gold or silver...The notes reflect a part of Newton's life which he kept hidden from public scrutiny during his lifetime, in part because the making of gold or silver was a felony and had been since a law was passed by Henry IV in 1404.'"

267 comments

  1. Hmm, really was crazy by bigbinc · · Score: 0

    My favorite scientist, lead into gold.

    Only Einstein.

    --
    ---- Berlin Brown http://www.newspiritcompany.
    1. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by mbkennel · · Score: 5, Insightful


      Why was it crazy?

      The atomic theory of matter wasn't even remotely experimentally provable. The periodic table was unknown and the idea of nuclei completely absent.

      Chemistry then was very empirical and without significant systematic reasoning. Here Newton was very right that there was in fact something substantially scientific which could be discovered.

      Unfortunately, experimental knowledge and technical ability wasn't available at the time to succeed in his quest, and it didn't happen for a hundred fifty to 200 more years.

      There was no scientific reason known at the time why lead (or anything else) couldn't be turned into gold with chemical reactions.

      Just imagine if Newton could have done spectroscopy or IR scattering experiments.

    2. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by i_should_be_working · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The facts you state make me feel he really was a little off, at least in this field.

      Usually scientists try to achieve things that are one or two steps above where they are now. Something that has at least a bit of theory behind it. The fact that Newton was attempting something that was so obviously beyond reach, something that there wasn't even a theory for, points to a problem.

      It would be like physicists of today actually trying to make anti-gravitons so we could fly around and repell stuff. Or biologists trying to raise the dead. Stuff so obviously impossible today as to be almost unimagninable.

    3. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by tloh · · Score: 4, Informative

      Math genius though he was, there is nothing scientific about much of what Newton did with his life. In Martin Gardner's delightful book "Did Adam and Eve Have Navels?", we are introduced to not only the Newton the Alchemist, but also Newton the Protestant fundamentalist who was obsessed with Bible codes and thought the Pope was the anti-christ. Funny that you should mention spectroscopy, though. Newton was the one who pass white light through a prism and demonstrate it was composed of a mixture of colors. A bit more rational investigation on his part and he may very well have developed the principles of spectroscopy.

      --
      Stay sentient. Don't drink bad milk.
    4. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by kinzillah · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "US scientists have succeeded in reviving the dogs after three hours of clinical death, paving the way for trials on humans within years."

      http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15739502-1376 2,00.html?name=otherside

      --
      Douglas P. Price
    5. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by sakusha · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah, that sort of lore is something I'd like to promote at the nearby "Isaac Newton Christian Academy." I don't know how they picked Newton as the guiding spirit for their little christian indoctrination school, but I'd like to go there and give the little K-8 kiddies a REAL lesson in what Newton was into.

    6. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I find your reasoning quite narrow-minded. Essentially, what you are suggesting is that scientists should be aware of their ignorance and try to stay within a certain scope of possibilities.

      I have news for you. If this was an accepted method in the scientific community, we'd still be banging rocks against each other to make fire.

      Carrying out experiments in the direction of what seems obvioiusly unattainable often yields unexpected results, and that's how progress is made.

      I find it interesting that you should mention the ability to fly. Think about all those poor schmucks who rolled their own wings and attempted to fly off of high altitude cliffs. They failed, but humans always strived to fly one way or another. Leonardo Da Vinci drew up prototypes of various flying mechanisms, which it can be argued, somewhat influenced modern flight technologies. Choppers, parachutes, etc. Was he over-reaching? Sure. But in many such instances, you have to think ahead by a mile to make any progress, even if what you're imagining is completely out of the realm of modern possibilities.

    7. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      mod parent up, scary but interesting stuff linked there

    8. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by Squalish · · Score: 1

      Isn't banging rocks together to make fire a quintessential example of what you're talking about?

      --
      People in Soviet Russia, however, appear to be afflicted with amusing juxtapositions of the aforementioned situation
    9. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe you and the parent post are arguing the same point. The previous post talked about how Newton must have been a little crazier than his contempories, based on the fact that his theories were several iterations more advanced than what his peers were working on. The post, however, doesn't really place a value on that either way... if anything it implies exactly what you state: that Newton's genius may have been precily because he was a little 'crazy'.

    10. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      You could tell the kiddies that Newton rejected the Trinity, which would make him a heretic in the eyes of most Christian denominations. :-)

    11. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by dhazard · · Score: 1

      Um... How is this interesting if it was posted on /. a few days back?

    12. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by Muhammar · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Newton was not a protestant but a secret catolic - from a ultraconservative sect (something like Mel Gibsons' father) that has been persecuted by the authorities.

      Most of his writings are dedicated to his theologic thoughts and alchemy. He was very off, autistic most likely, and had a pretty disagreeable vindicative personality. Which does not take away from his contributions in math and physics.

      --
      I doubt that we will ever figure out - and I suspect that even if we did figure out we couldn't do much about it
    13. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by joss · · Score: 1

      > Usually scientists try to achieve things that are > one or two steps above where they are now

      Newton *acheived* things many steps beyond where things were, he was not a usual man. The term "scientist" as we understand it did not exist back then and Newton probably did more to bring modern science into existence than any man before or since. Also, lead into gold or was not *obviously* beyond reach at all. The fact that he attained a theory that produced a decent understanding of everything from canonballs to planetary motion was far more amazing than if he had turned lead into gold.

      --
      http://rareformnewmedia.com/
    14. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by doyen2000 · · Score: 1
      I think people forget that even though his quest to turn lead into gold is futile. He actually managed to develop techniques in chemistry that were well beyond his time together with grasping a lot of impirical results.

      His experience did make him very rich and powerful. Not by turning lead into gold but by obtaining the Master of the Mint post. He took charge of England's great recoining and was knighted for his efforts.

      It is interesting that he was great at coming up with new concepts that they never came up with the concept of legal tender.

      His alchemist work really shows what happens when there is no exchange of information between people performing the same work or for the society to view. His work in optics and mechanics was not done overnight. There was a lot of debate and contribution from his peers before he could write down principia.

      Perhaps if his alchemist work was done in the open it could have help chemistry flourish and/or people could have applied the techniques he developed into less grandious pursuits.

      Cheers, Aldo

    15. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by Hognoxious · · Score: 1
      impirical results
      Huh? He was doing experiments on little demons?
      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    16. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by shaitand · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Perhaps it is merely that you imply there is a difference between genius and crazy. The intelligent but sane are also known as mediocre.

    17. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      Usually scientists try to achieve things that are one or two steps above where they are now. Something that has at least a bit of theory behind it.

      You do realise that one of the most common reasons for creating a theory is to explain experimental observations, don't you? In other words, the experiment often comes first...

    18. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by kinzillah · · Score: 1

      eh, sorry. I forgot where I saw it, and subsequently googled for it. Wasn't going for easy karma.

      --
      Douglas P. Price
    19. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by i_should_be_working · · Score: 1

      If this was an accepted method in the scientific community, we'd still be banging rocks against each other to make fire.

      This is the accepted method in the scientific community. You have to walk before you can fly. You have to crawl before you can walk. The guy who came to my lab with a proposal for a tachyon converter wasn't a visionary, he was a nut who should have known today's limitations.

      And your example of flying is flawed. Da Vinci saw things fly. He could see somewhat how they did it. It wasn't as unimaginable thing as converting lead to gold.

    20. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by i_should_be_working · · Score: 1

      No, most of the time there is some theory first. After some experiments the theory is modified, but it is hardly ever the case in modern physics where a whole theory has to be developed after an experiment.

      Maybe in Newton's day it was the other way around, or more recently with Einstein's explanation of Brownian motion. But today, uh uh.

    21. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by zieroh · · Score: 1

      Usually scientists try to achieve things that are one or two steps above where they are now.

      Indeed, mediocre, garden-variety scientists do try to look only a step or two ahead. And that, I think, precisely illustrates why Newton was (and is) truly a giant in the world of science.

      Progress in science is generally slow and tedious. Occasionally, someone like Newton or Einstein comes along and turns everything on it's head, precisely because they were thinking many steps outside the box. Sure, they were off in crackpot territory, but they came back with something useful that dramatically advanced the scientific domain.

      --
      People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
    22. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by Mr2cents · · Score: 1

      > The fact that Newton was attempting something that was so obviously beyond reach

      That's always easy said afterwards, but please try to explain to me why lead cannot be transformed in gold. Oh, I almost forgot: you cannot use the concept of atoms in your explanation.

      --
      "It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful." - Anton LaVey
    23. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by i_should_be_working · · Score: 1

      Then why not try changing rocks into wine? Or chickens into hamsters? There was no theory saying those couldn't be done either. But you didn't see scientists trying to do it.

      Just because no one can currently explain to me why I can't make tachyons out of Higgs particles doesn't mean I should waste my time trying.

      Lead into gold was just some magic dream left over from the dark ages that, unfortunately, Newton wasted some time on.

    24. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by einhverfr · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I might point out that Francis and Roger Bacon were also alchemists (Francis Bacon is usually credited with the scientific method).

      The fact is-- Newton seems to have thought that his work in mathematics and kenetics were largely unimportant compared to theology, alchemy, etc. I.e. creating calculus was easy compared to alchemy so of what value was it? I don't think that the Bacon brothers would have disagreed at all.

      Furthermore you have to look at the development of "modern science" in a little more of a broad picture to see what was going on.

      Prior to the 12th century in Europe, there was nothing that even approximated a structured approach to looking for truth in the cosmos. However, following the failures in the Crusades, the Church began to translate as much material from Arabic as they could. In the process, they reintroduced Europe to the works of Plato and Aristotle, and discovered other philosophers such as Albumassar. From this base, astrology, astronomy, alchemy, the traditions that would later become those of Renaissance occult philosophy, etc. were imported back to Europe (often with a few Arabic embellishments). Also advanced areas of agriculture and medicine were reintroduced as well.

      A good thing too because within a couple hundred years and these areas of the search for knowledge became systematically supressed within the Muslim world.

      With the development of these concepts, the seeds of the Renaissance were sown in Europe. It would not be too long before these concepts would be corrupted into bloodletting (which many famous physicians of the 16th century such as Nostradamus, Paracelsus, and Agrippa denounced). Indeed, the Renaissance Neoplatonic tradition was characterized by an attitude that nothing was beyond the reach of empirical and logical pursuit. Everything from theology to mathematics was deemed to be connected in this philosophical spirit of empiricism and logical enquiry.

      Furthermore, a basic assumption was made that the self and the cosmos were mirrors of eachother. Indeed Paracelsus suggested that Astrology worked because as Mars moved through the heavens, so too an aspect of ourselves (which Mars represented in the external world) would move through various domains of the self. I.e. as others have paraphrased it, the planets are within and there is no need to look for a mechanism whereby a distant object can impact our lives because it merely represents something internal to us.

      And it was out of these circles that a famous alchemist, Francis Bacon, essentially devised the Scientific Method.

      But a series of political changes were sweeping Europe, from the Reformation to the reaction to the fall of Constantinople, and there was eventually a reaction against the Neoplatonic tradition. This was then replaced with the tradition of the Enlightenment which differentiated itself from the Neoplatonic tradition by assuming that the self and the world were inherently different entities. Thereby if Astrology is assumed to work, it can't do so on the mere idea that the planets and their motions are representations of aspects of ourselves, and one must find a causal force connecting the planets to ourselves.

      And regarding alchemy, these ideas did not die either. Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan in his commentary in "Sepher Ytzirah: The Book of Creation in Theory and Practice" discusses briefly a Hassidic tradition whereby it was believed that one could turn, say, a shoe into a shoe in any other form (say, made of gold) through a process which largely equated to meditation. Again the idea is that if you can reduce the show to its ultimate abstract Platonic Form, you can remanifest that form in any other way. Because alchemy was primarily a spiritual path (and was acknowledged as such during its heyday), it does not assume reproduceability. I.e. it depends on the mind and the spirit of the alchemist, not on the deterministic reactions that occur in the lab.

      For this reason, many such as myself consider Alchemy as someth

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    25. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by Mr2cents · · Score: 1

      > Then why not try changing rocks into wine? Or chickens into hamsters?

      Pick your dream:
      I spent twenty years doing experiments in the basement and now I can turn chickens into hamsters

      - OR -

      I spent twenty years doing experiments in the basement and now I can turn lead into gold

      Besides, turning lead into gold is much more probable than the things you mentioned: they both already are soft, heavy metals, so they must be very similar stuff. only the color is a bit different.

      If you haven't already done so, you should really read "A Short History of Nearly Everything" by Bill Bryson, it tells about some other amazing things Newton spent his time on, and it really shows you how scientists have struggled to uncover what we now consider to be basic knowledge. The things our ancestors did for science are really mindblowing.

      --
      "It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful." - Anton LaVey
    26. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by dhazard · · Score: 1

      No worries

    27. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by tloh · · Score: 1

      I find it odd that so many posts in reply to mine stands to defend Newton against unfavourable opinions. True, his other pursuits does not take away from his contributions in math and physics, but neither does it add to it, nor does his achievements in math and physics excuse what amounts to absurdity of the human spirit. It is as if all great accomplishments buys one credit to do things one would ordinarily frown upon. Seriously now, in today's society, would you be inclined to look the other way if a person of great fame and accomplishment decides to disgrace himself with acts of shame or stupidity? (Let's remain in the realm of science and technology, less someone bring up Michael Jackson.) Probably not. More often than not, we hold those individual to be role models for others to follow. Unless you're some kind of rabidly bizzare nerd groupie, it is *NOT* an all-or-nothing preposition. We celebrate Newton for his positive contributions to civilization. We are not obliged to honor the aspects of his personal life which does not.

      --
      Stay sentient. Don't drink bad milk.
    28. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by tabrnaker · · Score: 0, Flamebait
      YOu mean, in white peoples reality, newton did more for modern science.

      Westerners would have you believe that it's only by their grace that any other culture can even live, let alone feed themselves or have learned anything about the reality around us.

    29. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by tabrnaker · · Score: 1

      You forgot the indians. Do people just spout the stuff they're told or do they actually try and learn and verify?

    30. Re:Hmm, really was crazy by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      I am not saying that the Indians had nothing to do with alchemy, astrology, etc. Indeed, I suspect that during the Muslim invasions of India, a fair bit of material was brought back to the major intellectual cities of Bagdad, etc. This is fairly well documented. Some of this material was obviously translated into Latin as well during the run up to the Renaissance.

      Note that Henry Agrippa and others actually discuss Hinduism to some degree in their search for a universal theory of the divine.

      But I actually think that the Indian influence on Alchemy and astrology was likely to be tangental rather than central. Which is why I omitted it.

      Also, if you look at astrology systems in Europe and the neighboring continents of Africa and Asia, you see something else which I don't think historians of these areas take seriously:

      Ancient Greek/Roman Astrology is far more similar to Vedic astrology than either is to Sumerian, Egyptian, etc. omitting for the moment the differences between tropical and siderial astrology. Even here, it is worth noting that Ptolomy discusses the controversy in his day about tropical vs. siderial astrology and makes his arguments for a tropical system (Vedic astrology is siderial). But this is a minor difference and the rest of the system is largely structurally identical (suggesting divergent evolution of the systems). Comparing this with what is known of Sumerian or Egyptian strology shows how different these systems were from the systems of Greece and India.

      Indeed Chinese astrology is structurally based on Vedic astrology and so one can largely argue that the Chinese borrowed it from the Indians. But aside from that, one only has two possibilities:
      1) A 12-sign astrology system was spread by the Indo-Europeans to places like Greece and India or
      2) India borrowed astrology from Greece (perhaps in the time of Alexander the Great?) or perhaps indirectly via the Persians.

      However, I do not hold with the idea that these are all divergent systems from Sumeria. The structural differences are simply too striking and point to independent implimentations. Any surface similarities are likely based on practical requirements.

      Presumably Alchemy has a similar tale, but I am not entirely sure.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  2. alchemy as an allegory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Alchemy is not so crude or base, it's an allegory for the purification of the soul. Transformation from human soul to the divine, base matter to gold. Only the ignorant and the greedy would pursue this craft solely for monetary rewards with singed hair, blasted retorts and noxious chemicals used in an unsafe fashion. They got what they deserved while true alchemists achieved something far more subtle and rewarding than is commonly accepted in our western, material society.

    1. Re:alchemy as an allegory by pair-a-noyd · · Score: 1

      Links please... Please expand upon this.
      This is the most interesting description I've ever heard of alchemy.

    2. Re:alchemy as an allegory by Quirk · · Score: 4, Informative
      My guess is he's referring to G. Jung's works on the subject. Here's a couple of links:

      http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/titles/57 05.html

      http://www.thezodiac.com/alchemy.htm

      --
      "Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
      Cohen
    3. Re:alchemy as an allegory by entartete · · Score: 2, Informative
    4. Re:alchemy as an allegory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      From Wikipedia:

      To understand the alchemists, it is helpful to consider how wonderfully magical the conversion of one substance into another, which had formed the basis of metallurgy since its inception at the end of the Neolithic, would seem in a culture with no formal understanding of physics or chemistry. To the alchemist, there was no compelling reason to separate the chemical (material) dimension from the interpretive, symbolic or philosophical one. In those times a physics devoid of metaphysical insight would have been as partial and incomplete as a metaphysics devoid of physical manifestation. So the alchemical symbols and processes often had both an inner meaning referring to the spiritual development of the practitioner as well as a material meaning connected to physical transformation of matter.


      If you're really interested go read Crowley's 777 or pick up some non-hippy, non-Ravyn Silverwolfe books about western mysticism.
    5. Re:alchemy as an allegory by pair-a-noyd · · Score: 1

      thanks to everyone for the very interesting links.
      I find this sort of reading to be very entertaining and very interesting.

    6. Re:alchemy as an allegory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or, he's referring to Paulo Coelho's famous book "The Alchemist."

    7. Re:alchemy as an allegory by h4rm0ny · · Score: 4, Interesting


      If you want a narrative account that deals with Newton and the transition of alchemy to chemistry, you could do worse than Neal Stephenson's Quicksilver. It's hardly authoratitive, but it is one of the most fantastic stories I've every read.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    8. Re:alchemy as an allegory by Martin+G.+1984 · · Score: 1

      There is also "The Alchemist: A Fable About Following Your Dream" by Paulo Coelho. Has both the "making gold" and "new level of consciousness" aspects.

    9. Re:alchemy as an allegory by rimu+guy · · Score: 1

      Oh, and also Neal Stephenson's novel Con-fusion.

      Right now the main character has just met with Netwon and they are discussing the disappearance of a certain volume of gold with certain special qualities. (Not to mention going into the conflict between Newton and Leibniz). Meanwhile the other protaganist in the story is making weapons - using 'alchemy' - in hindoostan out of urine.

      This is one of the more compelling novels I've picked up for years. Highly recommended.

    10. Re:alchemy as an allegory by mister_tim · · Score: 1

      Hey - I'm up to exactly the same point as well. How fascinating.

    11. Re:alchemy as an allegory by ninjakoala · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'd advise against getting the audio book though. I bought that and had a very hard time keeping track of the personas. Large parts of the book was also just cut out. Totally frustrating.

      --
      Against the grain
    12. Re:alchemy as an allegory by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 1

      So we're calling religious dogma "alchemy" these days, I take it?

    13. Re:alchemy as an allegory by k4_pacific · · Score: 1

      Dude, you are thinking of C. Jung. G. Jung was a drug kingpin.

      --
      Unknown host pong.
    14. Re:alchemy as an allegory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      www.levity.com/alchemy/home.html

      www.alchemylab.com

    15. Re:alchemy as an allegory by GMC-jimmy · · Score: 1
      "The notes reflect a part of Newton's life which he kept hidden from public scrutiny during his lifetime, in part because the making of gold or silver was a felony and had been since a law was passed by Henry IV in 1404."


      Am I reading too much into this or are geeks always into some sort of trouble ?
      --
      __________________________________
      Free your mind - Flush your toilet
    16. Re:alchemy as an allegory by orkysoft · · Score: 1

      Wait 'till you get to The System of the World!

      --

      I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
    17. Re:alchemy as an allegory by drwho · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is partly true, partly false. The modern view of alchemists is that they were nothing more than frauds and schemers trying to make gold from lead, and failing miserably. The reality is that alchemy is /was much more complex. To the alchemical mind, the forces of spirit and soul are not separate from the forces of the physical world. They believed in both spiritual and physical transformation. Looking at many old alchemical recipies, they were in fact rites of transformation of the mind first, having much in common with religious and magical ceremony. The best representation of this is the idea of The Philosopher's Stone, which is symbolic much like the Holy Grail (or the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch), but nonetheless it is also thought of by many as a physical object. Both of these may in fact be true.

      The alchemical tradition is really interesting to study. It has a lot of parallels to other spiritual belief systems, but like other systems became corrupted and gradually fell into disrepute but the middle of the seventeenth century.

    18. Re:alchemy as an allegory by cicho · · Score: 1

      Oh no. Plese tell me Stepheson won't now be writing a sequel!

      What I loved about the first volume was following the story of Newton and the Royal Society experiments and thought patterns. I'd never have thought a mostly fictional account of mostly failed experiments and meandering alchemists' thoughts could be so gripping. But everything else was so much padding and I gave up about a hundred pages into the second volume. If Stephenson wrote a biography of Newton, I'd probably devour it, though.

      --
      "Only the small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret by public incredulity." - Marshall McLuhan
    19. Re:alchemy as an allegory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      h4rm0ny wrote:
      If you want a narrative account that deals with Newton and the transition of alchemy to chemistry, you could do worse than Neal Stephenson's Quicksilver. It's hardly authoratitive, but it is one of the most fantastic stories I've every read.

      Stephenson wrote a series of books called The Baroque Cycle. It includes Quicksilver, The Confusion, and The System of the World. Newton is a "close aquaintance" of one of the main characters. Also, the characters tie in loosely to the characters in Cryptonomicon. Alchemy, longitude, piracy, and international trade are central themes. Fantastic isn't exactly the word I would use for it, if only because of the genre-ic implications. I tend to describe it as historical fiction about science. An absorbing and enjoyable read.

      /plug

    20. Re:alchemy as an allegory by firewrought · · Score: 1

      The Baroque Cycle (of which Quicksilver is the first volume) covers the birth of science and the birth of finance, much like Cryptonomicon covered the birth of modern cryptography. While many parts are absorbing and fascinating, there are too many tedious sections. This is partially because Neal crams in references to every scientist, royalty, war, and political/religious faction over the course of several decades and he must necessarily spur his characters to take miscellaneous detours, escapades, flashbacks, and chance encounters. Still, I think he could cut the page count from 2600 to 2000 or less and end up with a better novel. (Half of those pages could be taken from book 3.)

      --
      -1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
    21. Re:alchemy as an allegory by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1


      It's definitely a book to be read fast. I don't think I would have finished it if I let myself lose momentum and break for any length of time.

      I didn't feel there was any padding though. Some of it may seem irrelevant. But, for example, I was so staggered by the musical number halfway through the first book, that whether or not it was relevant was a minor consideration. I've tried to describe Neal Stephenson's writing to others and the best I've been able to do is liken it to Tarantino with none of the immaturity and three times the I.Q.

      It's fascinating that someone who wrote Snow Crash all those years ago, hasn't lost his edge. He's actually fixed his weaknesses and become much better with time. The Diamond Age and Cryptonomicon were the low points in his writing for me. Right now, he's as good as it gets.

      Disclaimer: I normally dislike Sci-Fi and fantasy (two /. staples) and read arty-farty stuff by Joyce Carol Oates.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    22. Re:alchemy as an allegory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Parent post is a troll, proof here (follow the link on this post, and you'll be back here...).

    23. Re:alchemy as an allegory by WoodenRobot · · Score: 1
      This is also true for the Taoist practice of alchemy. Descriptions of meditatonal states and transpersonal experiences were hidden in descriptions of chemical reactions, and such texts would only be able to be decoded by a teacher.

      The goal was to produce an "elixir of immortality", which was not really refering to a real medicine, but rather to enlightenment.

      --
      ---
      "I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing and it was everything that I thought it could be."
    24. Re:alchemy as an allegory by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      Well, then people would again bith about the ending being to abrupt :)

      I think the judgement of "padding or not" depends on the viewpoint. I read it not only as a story of "the birth of science and the birth of finance", but also as a refresher of European history, and so I found the tedious sections interesting too.

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    25. Re:alchemy as an allegory by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      bitch ... too abrupt.

      Sorry

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
  3. Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I dub thee, Newton, the Full Metal Alchemist.

    1. Re:Well by Anubis350 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps after the Fullmetal one arrived in our world, in his quest to reach the stars, he researched various forms of physics. Then published under the name Newton! it would work!!!

      As for me, a scientist, I can now say with complete sincerity if Newton is the Fullmetal one then "I for one welcome our new fullmetal overlord!"

      --
      "goodbye and hello, as always" ~Prince Corwin, from Zelazny's Amber series
    2. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps after the Fullmetal one arrived in our world, in his quest to reach the stars, he researched various forms of physics. Then published under the name Newton! it would work!!!

      No, it wouldn't. Newton was long dead by then.

    3. Re:Well by Rakshasa+Taisab · · Score: 1

      The Fullmetal Alchemist was on a quest to revive his dead mother... The young brothers studied alchemy hard for years, got togheter all the components that were nessesary to build a human body. Well, not gonna ruin the story for those who haven't read it, but one lost some of his limbs, the other his whole body.

      To learn why he's called Fullmetal, read the manga.

      --
      - These characters were randomly selected.
    4. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The manga is not yet finished, but the anime in Japan was. The stories of the manga and the anime are different, though.

      ** SPOILER **

      In the finale episode of the anime, Edward did come to our universe and lost his powers of Alchemy (our's is the physical universe), at the time just before the World War II. And surprise! He did start researching physics, and was trying to build rockets such that he can go back to the Alchemy universe to see his revived brother Alphonse.

    5. Re:Well by Felinoid · · Score: 1

      Or see the Anime on Cartoon Network.

      Newton would be more appropreately the Gravity Alchemist.
      Or maybe the Apple Alchemist.

      But then what do I know. I'm just a humunculi.

      --
      I don't actually exist.
    6. Re:Well by ShyGuy91284 · · Score: 1

      Now we can't forget about Newton's roll in Escaflowne. He was the heart of evil and hatred. Gave me yet another reason to hate him in addition of blaming piles of Calculus homework on him.

      --
      In undeveloped countries, the consumer controls the market. In capitalist America, the market controls you.
  4. I think Henry IV is still alive... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...and working at the US Justice Department for Microsoft.

  5. Lead to Gold? No Problem! by AKAImBatman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The notes are written about alchemy, which some scientists in Newton's time believed to hold the secret for transforming base metals, such as lead, into the more precious metals of gold or silver

    *Ahem*

    Simply place the lead into the path of a strong neutron stream. Wait awhile. You should get some gold if you're patient. However, the gold will be highly radioactive and otherwise generally unsuitable for use. Given enough time, it will also turn back into lead.

    I read an interesting article once that suggested that alchemists had developed some of the earliest atomic piles. Apparently, many accounts of alchemists include information such as "they had a furnace straight from hell" and that they "suddenly developed lesions and died a few days later." Considering that radioactivity/atomic reactions were not understood until later, it is not a bad hypothesis that alchemists figured out that "warm rocks" such as pseudo-silver (radium) deposits might have special properties. If they piled enough up to create a critical mass, then they would have had a very interesting furnace.

    I wish I still had a link to that article. :-/

    1. Re:Lead to Gold? No Problem! by dtfinch · · Score: 5, Funny

      Easier way to turn lead and radium into gold:
      * Throw away the lead.
      * Sell the radium.
      * Buy a shitload of gold with the proceeds.

    2. Re:Lead to Gold? No Problem! by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A good idea, except that they had no idea what radium was back then. And silver that killed you wasn't very good for business, as these poor fellowsfigured out. :-)

    3. Re:Lead to Gold? No Problem! by Quirk · · Score: 4, Interesting

      A book I picked up in a used bookstore spoke to the supposed knowledge of 20th century alchemists. The Morning of the Magicians is a fun read dealing to a large extent with Black Magic as practised in the Third Reich.

      --
      "Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
      Cohen
    4. Re:Lead to Gold? No Problem! by Seumas · · Score: 1

      How long until Apple sues?

    5. Re:Lead to Gold? No Problem! by AKAImBatman · · Score: 1

      How long until Apple sues?

      Sues for what?

    6. Re:Lead to Gold? No Problem! by ozmanjusri · · Score: 1

      How long until Apple sues?

      When they find out the first step in the transmutation of base metals into gold is "Eat up Martha."

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    7. Re:Lead to Gold? No Problem! by TapeCutter · · Score: 4, Funny

      I think the GP post was pointing out that alchemey was obsessed with the "philosophers stone", nuclear physics IS the "philosophers stone". The idea that silver or gold would kill you is not much of a problem to bussiness, costing more to produce than it is worth is what is holding back glow in the dark jewellry.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    8. Re:Lead to Gold? No Problem! by MidnightBrewer · · Score: 1

      "Enough time" would be only a few minutes at the most, and usually less than a few seconds; the only long-lived isotope of gold is Au-195, which has a half-life of 186 days. Also, this particular isotope happens to also be the only one that cannot be created by neutron irradiation. It is instead created by electron capture, a process whereby an electron is combined with a proton in the nucleus, resulting in a neutron and a neutrino, the latter of which is ejected.

      So it would seem the very properties that make gold so desirable also make it incredibly hard to irradiate.

      --
      "Give a man fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life
    9. Re:Lead to Gold? No Problem! by Seumas · · Score: 1

      Newton.

    10. Re:Lead to Gold? No Problem! by noidentity · · Score: 1, Funny

      AKAImBatman: Simply place the lead into the path of a strong neutron stream. Wait awhile. You should get some gold if you're patient.
      Homer: That's good.
      AKAImBatman: However, the gold will be highly radioactive and otherwise generally unsuitable for use.
      Homer: That's bad.
      AKAImBatman: Given enough time, it will also turn back into lead.
      Homer: Uhhh
      AKAImBatman: That's OK!
      Homer: Can I go now?

    11. Re:Lead to Gold? No Problem! by istewart · · Score: 1

      I would hang onto the lead, just in case Superman comes around.

    12. Re:Lead to Gold? No Problem! by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1
      the only long-lived isotope of gold is Au-195, which has a half-life of 186 days
      WTF? If that were the case then all gold jewellery would disappear within ten years. There must be isotopes which are much longer-lived than that.
      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    13. Re:Lead to Gold? No Problem! by fm6 · · Score: 1
      Simply place the lead into the path of a strong neutron stream.
      Hard to do with 17th century tech! Anyway, Sir Isaac, smart as he was, knew jack about particle physics. So he attempted to work with what he did know, even though his alchemical skills weren't really relevent. Just like those Utah bozos who attempted to create nuclear fusion through purely chemical means. Both resemble the proverbial drunk searching for his keys where he can see, not where he dropped them.
    14. Re:Lead to Gold? No Problem! by Archades · · Score: 0

      put lead in gun aim gun at jewlerry store run far far away with newfound riches

    15. Re:Lead to Gold? No Problem! by deglr6328 · · Score: 1

      "I read an interesting article once that suggested that alchemists had developed some of the earliest atomic piles. Apparently, many accounts of alchemists include information such as "they had a furnace straight from hell" and that they "suddenly developed lesions and died a few days later." Considering that radioactivity/atomic reactions were not understood until later, it is not a bad hypothesis that alchemists figured out that "warm rocks" such as pseudo-silver (radium) deposits might have special properties. If they piled enough up to create a critical mass, then they would have had a very interesting furnace."

      You must admit though that this is quite the preposterous hypothesis. First, only materials which have an EXTRAORDIANRILY high specific activity (nuclear disintegrations/unit mass) are capable of actually heating themselves through radioactive decay. There is no such thing, therefore as a "warm rock" of for example U ore. The radionuclides are just way WAAAAAY to dilute to notice any thermal heating even with sensitive instruments. The only way they could've possibly noted heat from a radioactive substance was if they started refining massive amounts of pitchblende into Ra and Po as did Mme Curie and even then you would almost certainly note the radioluminescent effects of the materials before you noticed any heat. There were many nasty chemicals (HCL, HN03, As, white allotrope P, and so on) that alchemists played around with; to "develop lesions and die a few days later" is not an unthinkable occurence when un-safely dealing with these materials. No, the idea that alchemists had any clue even as to the existence of radioactivity or its effects is I think, beyond the realm of reasonable logic.

      --
      - "Hear that?! The percolations are imminent! Cease your ingress!"
    16. Re:Lead to Gold? No Problem! by dbIII · · Score: 1
      "they had a furnace straight from hell"
      Considering that in centuries past the average furnace was just a fire with a kid blowing bellows on it, it doesn't take much of a chimney or other form of more serious airflow to produce an impressive furnace.
      "suddenly developed lesions and died a few days later."
      Those guys worked with materials a lot more poisonous than mercury without much in the way of precautions.

      The Curies actually had to put a lot of effort in to concentrate the radioactive material they had - and they certainly didn't get a critical mass, so the pile specualtion is a bit way out.

      Agricola came in at the tail end of alchemy and put several of it's techniques to practical use, and he did publish his results so you may find it interesting.

    17. Re:Lead to Gold? No Problem! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, a large percentage of surviving alchemical talismans are still radioactive. They were definitely up to something well before the Curie's work.

  6. Base metals into gold by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    He found greater success in his alternative research - scrap paper into gold. Just get a suitably famous person to scrawl nonsense onto the paper (some crap about alchemy should work) wait a few centuries and sell it for all the gold you can eat.

  7. Vocab Lesson, Eh? by Asshat+Canada · · Score: 1, Insightful

    "believed to hold the secret for transforming base metals"

    I beleive the word is Transmuting, no?

    1. Re:Vocab Lesson, Eh? by lastchance_000 · · Score: 1

      I thought it was transmogrify!

    2. Re:Vocab Lesson, Eh? by CableModemSniper · · Score: 1

      Scientific progress goes 'Boink!' ?

      --
      Why not fork?
    3. Re:Vocab Lesson, Eh? by systemic+chaos · · Score: 1

      One would think, but in this case there is more than meets the eye.

  8. @Dan Brown, Da Vinci Code by python_kiss · · Score: 1, Funny

    Here's another chapter you can include.

    --
    Science without religion is lame. /. without me is lamer
  9. Orthodoxy in Science by md81544 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This prompts me to state something that I've wanted to say for quite a while. There's a large /. fraternity who will jump on anyone who proposes anything outside the current scientific orthodoxy. And yet here we are reminded that one of our foremost scientific forebears dabbled in a lot of stuff that, today, we see as rather esoteric (to be charitable). I think the reason he is seen as a giant of science is because he was not straightjacketed by orthodoxy. To quote Shakespeare:
    There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

    1. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by CaptKilljoy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There's a large /. fraternity who will jump on anyone who proposes anything outside the current scientific orthodoxy. And yet here we are reminded that one of our foremost scientific forebears dabbled in a lot of stuff that, today, we see as rather esoteric (to be charitable).

      Unorthodoxy is science is fine, as long as the resulting discoveries are repeatable / provable.

      Pseudo-science is still pseudo-science, no matter how many fine minds have indulged in it.

    2. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by Gloggy · · Score: 1

      Sure. It is, of course, pseudo-science. However a great deal of modern chemistry stems from the experiments of alchemists and what we see today as quaint, silly ideas were probably fairly serious in the day. In any case, I don't think one can laugh at Newton unless one has developed a whole branch of mathematics single-handedly. Anyone???

    3. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by kfg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No scientist has ever won a Nobel Prize by posting [AOL]Me Too![/AOL]

      Overthrowing orthodoxy is the career making Holy Grail of every scientist.

      All you have to do to collect your Nobel is . . .do it!

      Ah, there's the rub. There are these nasty things called "facts" in the way. You're not allowed to make up just any old shit and collect your prize (or chair).

      Neither was Newton. That's why we all know about the laws of motion, but the papers on alchemy were hidden.

      They didn't work.

      KFG

    4. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by PakProtector · · Score: 1

      He certainly hoped it would prove otherwise, though. I remember hearing that back in the '70s they analysed a strand of Sir Newton's hair, only to find it contained a concentration of Mercury that was forty times higher than 'background exposure.'

      --

      Edward@Tomato - /home/Edward/ man woman
      man: no entry for woman in the manual.
      "Qua!?"

    5. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by dragons_flight · · Score: 1

      Alchemy was the chemistry of its day. There are plenty of ways that Newton overthrow the established views, but dabbling in alchemy would have been a fairly typical thing for a scientist of his day.

    6. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by flibberdi · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Anyone question the "religions of today" will be listed as a crackpot.

      I have been checking out Autodynamics and I find the stuff cool-ish (ok, it was some years ago).
      I am not saying I like the theory (the gravitons are, eh.. hard to digest) but there is a different angle that I like. I am NOT into this kind of stuff (physics/math), so I wont argue one way or the other, but my point is, if you question anything today you will find yourself stoned by redicule and intimidation.

      I don't like being stoned ;)

    7. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The first man to split an atom, Ernest Rutherford, has another great passion, and that was creating champaign out of rhubarb. I would imaging that rhubarb would make for a very acidic wine, but there you go...
      He was working on his champaign when he split the atom.

    8. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one is laughing at Newton. You missed his point.

    9. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by tloh · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Well said!

      Quackery is more or less recognizable in any age. I feel obliged to contribute an addendum of particular relevence which sheds some light on how Newton's notes on alchemy were regarded before they were lost. The following is taken from the end of Chapter 22 in Martin Gardner's "Did Adam and Eve Have Navels?"

      When Newton's manuscripts on alchemy were sold in 1936 at a Sotheby auction, the economist John Maynard Keynes was the major buyer. In a brilliant speech on Newton, given at the Royal Society's Newton Tercentenary Celebration in 1947, Keynes spoke of having gone through some million of Newton's words on alchemy and found them "wholly devoid of scientific value." Newton's "deepest instincts were occult, esoteric - with a profound shrinking from the world - a rapt, consecrated, solitary perusing his studies by intense introspection, with a mental endurance perhaps never equaled."

      As for Newton's discoveries in mathematics and physics, Keynes believed they resulted less from experiments than from an incredible intuition. Later Newton would dress them up with formal demonstrations and proofs which had little to do with the insights that seemed to enter his head by sheer magic. Keynes put it this way:

      In the eighteenth century and since, Newton came to be thought of as the first and greatest of the modern age of scientists, a rationalist, one who taught us to think on the lines of cold and untinctured reason. I do not see him in this light. I do not think that anyone who has pored over the contents of that box which he packed up when he finally left Cambridge in 1696 and which, thought partly dispersed, have come down to us, can see him like that. Newton was not the first of the age of reason. He was the last of the magicians, the last of the Babylonians and Sumerians, the last great mind which looked out on the visible and intellectual world with the same eyes as those who began to build our intellectual inheritance rather less than 10,000 years ago. Isaac Newton, a posthumous child born with no father on Christmas Day, 1642, was the last wonderchild to whom the Magi could do sincere and appropriate homage.

      --
      Stay sentient. Don't drink bad milk.
    10. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by kfg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't like being stoned

      You did not understand my post. Scientists do not support ideas, they stone them. The ideas that can stand up to the stoning are the ones that, well, stand.

      Question all you want. That's the point. That's the scientific method. Your issue is that you seem to want to question without being questioned in returned.

      Simply form your question so it is possible to show if it is false or not.

      If it is, accept that.

      As for Autodynamics, you may find the concepts as "cool" as you like, but theories are not judged by their "coolness," they are judged by whether or not they can be falsified. If you do not personally have the means to determine whether they are false or not it is not the fault of the messanger for pointing out their falsity and your not being able to understand it.

      Educate yourself and defend the theory from an educated position.

      (Frankly, I've just had a look at some of the stuff and it's blatent crackpot nonsense, but of course you can't trust me, because I've been educated in physics, therefore I must be in on the plot. If you educate yourself then you too will be in on the plot, without even knowing it. Therefore it must be true because it can be shown to be false, but only by people who know how. . .or . . .something. Look, it's crackpot stuff on the order of claiming that things don't fall when you drop them because that implies that unicorns are pink and we all know there are no such things as unicorns. Get thee hence and read Bertrand Russell's The ABC's of Relativity. If you don't like my suggestion because you believe I am stoning you, well, tough. Science really doesn't care about your feelings either. That's part of the beauty of it.)

      KFG

    11. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by kfg · · Score: 1

      The question is not whether or not you are allowed to question. That is what science does.

      The question is to what standard are the answers held.

      KFG

    12. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by PakProtector · · Score: 1

      I wasn't debating that. I was just pointing out how ardent Newton's belief in conversion of base metals to gold was.

      --

      Edward@Tomato - /home/Edward/ man woman
      man: no entry for woman in the manual.
      "Qua!?"

    13. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Questioning science won't necessarily get you labelled as a crackpot.

      Refusing to look at, deliberately misunderstanding, or ignoring evidence will get you labelled as a crackpot. Inventing bogus ad hoc hypotheses to support a position you have given no thought to will get you labelled as a crackpot. Using junk science that explains none of the data that existing theories do will probably get you labelled. If you don't understand the bare basics of what you are questioning, then you will probably get labelled as a crackpot. (Example seen on slashdot: saying that evolution can't happen because of vague references to the 2nd law of thermodynamics.)

    14. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by blincoln · · Score: 1

      Refusing to look at, deliberately misunderstanding, or ignoring evidence will get you labelled as a crackpot

      Exactly.

      I wasn't familiar with "Autodynamics," so I checked out a website on it. It's got all the hallmarks of pseudo-science:

      - Lengthy explanations as to why you've never heard of it due to entrenched scientific belief.

      - Use of the "theory" to explain just about everything.

      - Ridiculous claims like red-shift being caused by gravitational effects on photons rather than the expansion of the universe.

      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
    15. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by flibberdi · · Score: 1

      No no no...

      >> >>I don't like being stoned

      >>You did not understand my post. Scientists do not support ideas, they stone them

      I didn't expect to get "stoned" for a theory I don't even support (I just said it was cool-ish, like the idea of us not coming from the apes), my only concern here is that I can't (couldn't some years ago) find anyone explaining what was wrong with the theory...except just saying "this is not how relativity works" (they were quite proude of just understand the theory, no way in hell they were going into paradoxes). Anyway the "I don't like being stoned" was kind of a joke (inhale smoke kind of thing).

      To be honest I am not interested in this stuff anymore (I DID study this long time ago, but you may win the pissing contest), though it would be fun finding a site www.thisiswhatswrongwithautodynamics.org, but instead I find people getting really touchy when this subject is up, I wouldn't be getting this kind of heat if I thought the idea with the earth being flat was cool...

      >> I've been educated in physics, therefore I must be in on the plot.

      Huh?? There is a plot?? Where...show me!!! I want to know!!! Can I read about it on whatreallyhappened?

      I don't understand why ppl turn so defensive... I just thought the "redicule and intimidation" (and agressive tones in general) was strange... I just don't get it. I suppose it's a good thing to be passionate...

      >>Your issue is that you seem to want to question without being questioned in returned.

      I may have been unclear...

      I didn't question anything, even if I had, I wouldn't mind beeing questioned. There is a big difference in "being questioned" and rediculed and intimidated...

      I had a discussion with a "creationist" some time ago, and there was no way in hell (eh...) to get to any kind of agreement. He made references to studies/papers made by other creationists, I could only respond with referenses by people not being creationists, hence we threw "facts/references" at each other, and hadn't I given up, I would still be wasting my time doing it.

      Note, his "facts" was as clear and natural to him as our "facts" are to us.. The main difference (in my opinion) is that his views are static while mine isn't... I really tried to take his view on things, but I just couldn't make any sense of it.

      My point is: Try to be open (peace love and all that).

    16. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by flibberdi · · Score: 1

      >>Refusing to look at, deliberately misunderstanding, or ignoring evidence will get you labelled as a crackpot

      I find this so funny!! Hilarious!

      Keep it up!

    17. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by zCyl · · Score: 1

      Unorthodoxy is science is fine, as long as the resulting discoveries are repeatable / provable.

      And just how do you know which unorthodox things are repeatable and provable before investigating them? Supreme intuition? :)

      Many scientists today are comfortable sitting on the soulders of giants, but are afraid to jump off. The great leaps in history are made by those with the courage to try things without knowing beforehand whether or not they will work.

    18. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, this is one of the most angry posts I've ever seen on slashdot. I thought the parent was overreacting, but if you're typical I think he might have a point.

    19. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by Moderatbastard · · Score: 0
      And yet here we are reminded that one of our foremost scientific forebears dabbled in a lot of stuff that, today, we see as rather esoteric (to be charitable). I think the reason he is seen as a giant of science is because he was not straightjacketed by orthodoxy.
      Firstly, you're confusing cause and effect; just because some currently accepted theory seemed mad at the time doesn't mean that all mad sounding theories will be widely accepted in the future.

      Secondly, most of the mad sounding theories that turned out not to be true have ended up on the cutting-room floor of history, along with their proponents. Newton is remembered because of the stuff he got right.

      --
      1/3 of jokes get modded OT. If you get the joke, mod 1 in 3 insightful/interesting/underrated to restore karma balance.
    20. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      So what? Rutherford had a hobby and I suspect that Rutherford probably understood the scientific basis of it. You do know that winemaking follows the rules of science, right? This is totally not the same as if Rutherford believed in faries or thought the moon was made of cheese. Oh, and it's "champagne", unless he was trying to find a loophole in EU laws.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    21. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by Hognoxious · · Score: 1
      just how do you know which unorthodox things are repeatable and provable before investigating them?
      If you know before investigating it's not science, it's good guessing.
      Many scientists today are comfortable sitting on the soulders of giants, but are afraid to jump off.
      So what would you define as jumping off? Deciding that E != mc^2? That V/I doesn't equal R?

      Do you actually understand what the analogy you're straining actually means?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    22. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Well, hang on a second. This alchemy story reminds me of something posted here on /. a bit back... Ah, yes, involving using Aluminum and Iodine to create things that mimic earth-alkaline metals.

      What if those elder people knew that combinations of elements could be used to turn basic elements into other basic elements, and were trying to to what's mentioned in the above-linked story?

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    23. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      "Wow, this is one of the most angry posts I've ever seen on slashdot."

      then you must be new here.

      "but if you're typical I think he might have a point."

      So let me get this right ... the truth of a theory is directly proportional to the slapping some 'tard gets for supporting it?

    24. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by SA+Stevens · · Score: 1

      In Newton's day it would not have been referred to as 'dabbling.'

      Think about it.

    25. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by drwho · · Score: 1

      I know what you mean. I find it disturbing too -- those who are the Orthodox MIT type. You even mention the idea of cold fusion to this type and they'll start flipping out. They think that all cold fusion people are quacks, and won't waste their time by reading papers on it or trying any experiments themselves. Anything that Pons or Fleischman have touched is soiled.

      Bah...I say approach this stuff carefully but with an open mind.

    26. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I'd just like to make the observation that Keynes appearently remarks that Newton's discoveries in mathematics and physics are due to "incredible intuition", but that same remarkable intuition applied to alchemy is "wholly devoid of scientific value."

      Looking back, that may be obvious, but at the time, it may have been very difficult to tell the difference.

      Just saying.

    27. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by BlueStraggler · · Score: 1
      Newton's "deepest instincts were occult, esoteric..."

      As would be expected of the 31st Grand Master of the Priory of Sion.

    28. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 1

      My guess is that Leibniz did laugh at Newton. Leibniz's calculus and terminology is what we use today.

    29. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >> "but if you're typical I think he might have a point."

      > So let me get this right ... the truth of a theory is directly proportional to the slapping some 'tard gets for supporting it?

      What? I thought science was democratic! The more people believe in a theory, the better it works.

      -AC (Anonymous Crackpot)

    30. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by M_de_A · · Score: 1

      This comment reminded me of the feeling of atonishment when I read one of Einstein's letters to Max Born. The quote goes like:

      "Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the Old One. I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice."

      This, together with other sources may indicate that Einstein may have used intuition as a major part of his method of work - he just knew. Mathematics could then be applied to make those intuitions work out.

      It is remarkable to see the possibility of Newton using similar approaches.

    31. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by coopex · · Score: 1

      Maybe YOU use Leibniz's methods, but you can have my fluxions and fluents when you pry them from my cold dead fingers.

      --
      The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
    32. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by coopex · · Score: 1
      --
      The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
    33. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by Snart+Barfunz · · Score: 1

      Thanks for posting that quote. It's a rare treat to read such cogent reasoning, and so elegantly expressed, on Slashdot.

      --
      --- Yx3 = Delilah ---
    34. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What I find interesting about Newton is the way he 'transmuted' Alchemic concepts into physical concepts. Take the old words "As above, so below", taken to mean that the stars control our destiny, ie astrology. However with Newton the words get a new meaning, a modern meaning, that the laws of nature are everywhere the same - as above so below.

    35. Re:Orthodoxy in Science by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      There's a large /. fraternity who will jump on anyone who proposes anything outside the current scientific orthodoxy.

      I call bullshit.

      What are your sources?
      Who funded those sources?
      Does the man funding those sources like to dress up in women's underwear?
      Is he a libertarian?
      Hmmm???

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  10. Error 1404? by EnsilZah · · Score: 3, Funny

    Error 1404: Lead to gold transformation not found.

  11. Newton a felon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And we thought perl programming was a questionable profession. Now physics too?

  12. On second look by LandownEyes · · Score: 4, Funny

    Seems like these papers contain nothing more than plans on how to get a cockroach to navigate a room while perched atop a ping-pong ball. Oh, the progress we've made.

    1. Re:On second look by commodoresloat · · Score: 1

      Yes, but it's a gold ping pong ball. One that was made out of lead a minute ago.

  13. radioactivity doesn't feel warm.. by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 1

    "A furnace straight from hell"?

    Alpha and beta radiation doesn't feel warm. Not like microwaves or something. If you had enough radiation coming out of your furnace to be felt over the infrared emitted just by the fires, then you wouldn't have time to develop lesions and die a few days later.

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
    1. Re:radioactivity doesn't feel warm.. by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Informative

      Alpha and beta radiation doesn't feel warm.

      Yes it does. Or more precisely, it warms the material itself. You feel the heat by old-fashion convection. That's why Pu238 (an Alpha emitter) is warm to the touch and can be used as a power source inside RTGs.

      In either case, the theory is that these alchemists created a critical mass of a radioactive material. It would have begun fissioning, thus producing all kinds of radiation; including thermal, infrared, gamma, neutron, and others.

    2. Re:radioactivity doesn't feel warm.. by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      But I can't imagine it's possible to have a critical mass of radiactive material assembled, observing the beginning fission and live long enough to tell someone about it. I seriously doubt they accidentally had some sort of fission moderator present, heavy water or graphite and whatnot, to slow this reaction. So my guess would be, once they had a critical mass they should have had not more time than 10^-6 seconds to observe anything before getting vaporized by the explosion.

    3. Re:radioactivity doesn't feel warm.. by J.+Random+Luser · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you read the literature on DIY Fission Bombs you'll find it is rather difficult to get an efficient explosion. It's quite a trick, learned by a few military organisations over long repetitive testing, to get the material all together in one lump at criticality. The GP talked about "warm rocks". The rocks in which radium and uranium are usually found will naturally prevent criticality, otherwise the remnants of this planet would be barren and cratered. If you try to amass lumps of concentrated ore the rocks will still moderate the reaction enough that you will get plenty of warning that this is no ordinary furnace.

    4. Re:radioactivity doesn't feel warm.. by ColaMan · · Score: 4, Informative

      Perhaps you'd like to check out CRITICALITY ACCIDENTS from 1943-1970. Plenty of people saw large fission reactions first-hand and lived a day or two afterwards.

      From about three quarters of the way down the page :
      At that time, the screwdriver apparently slipped and the upper shell fell into position around the fissionable material. Of the eight people in the room, two were directly engaged in the work leading to this incident.

      The "blue glow" was observed, a heat wave felt, and immediately the top shell was slipped off and everyone left the room. The scientist who was demonstrating the experiment received sufficient dosage to result in injuries from which he died nine days later. The scientist assisting received sufficient radiation dosage to cause serious injuries and some permanent partial disability.


      "er, Whoops."

      --

      You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
      There is a lot of hype here.
    5. Re:radioactivity doesn't feel warm.. by Nuclear+Therapist · · Score: 1
      Dr. Louis Slotin's last experiment.

      Dr. Slotin's job at the Manhattin Project during the war (WWII) was to determine the exact mass of plutonium needed to achieve criticality for the implosion (Fat Man) bomb. This experiment was key for reasons beyond just what were required for a bomb. This knowledge was necessary to make sure that the plutonium seperation process in use at Hanford, Washington did not accidently separate Pu in too great a quantity running the risk of spontaneous fission during processing.

      As I recall the story, Dr. Slotin had retired his risky experiment at the end of the war. But in the year following was asked to repeat it for a visting scientist (the fellow who you say was assisting, more like observing I'd say).

      Following this incident the experiment was banned at Los Alamos. Subsequent studies we performed using remote controlled tele-operated robotics.

      I've always wondered if a gravity table would have been the far safer way to conduct this experiment. The fail safe would have been if the operator released the wheel that would have been lifting the lower hemisphere closer to the upper one a weight on the axle would have forced the lower one away.

      Dr. Slotin received a fatal dose in the affair because he made a conscious and heroic snap descision to manually separate the beryllium reflectors stopping the reaction. Saving the lives of everyone there except his own.

      I find it ironic and more than sad that no mention of Dr. Slotin (or Harry Daghlian) was made at the Bradbury Museum in Los Alamos when I visited there back in 1997. True he ran a risky experiment, but also true he has been asked to do it after he'd stopped. Also true his heroic action that day saved many lives.

      I hope in the time since my last visit this oversight has been corrected.

    6. Re:radioactivity doesn't feel warm.. by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      I hope in the time since my last visit this oversight has been corrected.

      There's a good tribute in The Wrath Of Khan.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  14. Not quite lead into gold... by physicsphairy · · Score: 5, Funny
    But I've turned bread into mold!

    Fear my awesome powers!

    1. Re:Not quite lead into gold... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Yeah well turn mold into LSD and then I'll be impressed.

      Wait a minute.

      Somebody else already did that! Fuck it, you gotta do more than that to impress my drunk ass.

    2. Re:Not quite lead into gold... by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 1

      >But I've turned bread into mold!
      >Fear my awesome powers!

      Fiddle-faddle. You've just used the natural laws of spontaneous generation to form life from nonliving matter. It is as trivial as falling off a bicycle; such things no longer impress a jaded scientist such as myself.

  15. Lost??? by otter42 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As an American, I never understood how Europeans could just lose this kind of thing. You're always hearing about some lost Michelangelo sculpture emerging, or a late Beethoven piece being discovered, or a Rembrandt revealed underneath a clown. My question was always, "How???"

    Then I moved to France.

    If you've never been to Europe, it's difficult to explain the shear amount of art here. It hangs of walls in homes, sits in the middle of city squares, and looms of staircases inside public buildings. They've got it everywhere, and over time, and especially because of a much higher level of secrecy in private, everyday life, these things just get forgotten.

    It works like this: a grandmother knows that HER grandfather treasured a certain document and hid it away in a chest. She doesn't know what it was, as her grandfather never confided the secret to her, and when she passes away, her children find just another nameless ancient document in her affairs. They forget about it for generations, having no idea of its worth or origins.

    In another example, the Naitonal Archeological Museum of Naples, Italy has so much art and sculpture that they simply haven't cataloged it all yet. In the middle of the building is a gigantic courtyard that is replete with statues that have no name and are just wearing away in the rain and shine. No one knows where they came from, or who made them.

    Europe has just got so much of the stuff, hidden away as family heirlooms, in church vaults, or in plain sight in museums that they just can't analyze it all.

    Anyway, just my meager attempt to help my fellow Americans what people mean when they talk about "Old" Europe.

    --
    www.eissq.com/BandP.html Ball and Plate System. Amuse your friends. Crush your enemies.
    1. Re:Lost??? by ratnerstar · · Score: 1

      I dunno, I'm an American and I lose shit all the time.

      --
      Just because you sold your soul to the devil that needn't make you a teetotaler. --The Devil and Daniel Webster
    2. Re:Lost??? by Seindal · · Score: 1

      Exactly, you lose shit, the europeans lose art :-)

      --
      René Seindal
    3. Re:Lost??? by gcantallopsr · · Score: 1

      That's true. I live in Spain. Most museums here have a LOT of nameless objects in the basement just waiting to be identified :-(

      --
      Try Ubuntu GNU/Linux, it's great!!!
    4. Re:Lost??? by moonbender · · Score: 3, Interesting

      For what it's worth, Newton died in 1727. Since then, there have been numerous wars, famines, political shifts and so on. When you're trying to survive, hanging on to crackpot theories by a historic VIP probably isn't your top priority. I don't think it's really due to secrecy (and I really can't echo your sentiments in that regard), but more due to different priorities in some stages of Europe's history that some art and manuscripts were lost or destroyed.

      --
      Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
    5. Re:Lost??? by C32 · · Score: 1

      Too true.
      From my travels in Italy the cavalier attitude of the italians towards their heritage is painfully obvious..
      The first time I saw a bunch of ancient artwork eroding outside I was shocked, but sadly they don't seem to care. :(

    6. Re:Lost??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Guys, Europe is history. We've had hundreds of generations, thousands of art and scientific geniuses (in their own or other peoples opinions), literally trillions of relationships, friendships and contacts. My point is that, quite simply, there's been a lot going on over here. We have a lot of history, and we've not had a lot of people writing it down, or trying to catalogue it. Give us a break, come back in a century or two we should have it done by then. Oh, and help us invade italy, they'll never get round to it on there own.

    7. Re:Lost??? by otter42 · · Score: 1

      Oh, I wholehartedly agree. I was just using secrecy as an example of how these things get forgotten.

      There're a million reasons, but the easiest one to imagine on such a large scale are people who for one reason or another refuse to disclose what they've got. I imagine that The Scream will be "lost" in much the same fashion. I guarantee that his/her children have NO idea that they're sitting on a multi-million dollar painting.

      --
      www.eissq.com/BandP.html Ball and Plate System. Amuse your friends. Crush your enemies.
    8. Re:Lost??? by otter42 · · Score: 1

      It's not that they don't care, it's just impossible for them to do anything about it. There's just so much of it. Tons and tons and tons of it. And I bet that no one wants to sell it-- who knows, it could be worth millions!-- so it'll just sit and rot for another thousand years.

      If I could, though, i'd love to buy a bit of it by the ton...

      --
      www.eissq.com/BandP.html Ball and Plate System. Amuse your friends. Crush your enemies.
    9. Re:Lost??? by drwho · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Also, don't forget about all the wars that Europe has had. Don't forget that what is considered notable today wasn't often though of as such at times in the past. Consider that, even today, certain documents and artifacts are even illegal to have copies of in some countries, and that most 'antiquities', when discovered in private posession, will be seized by the government. I am sure there is much privately held, and its value comprehended, that will not see by the public for many years. Just imagine what the secret vaults of the vatican must hold. Think of what might be stashed in safe-deposit boxes in Zurich. Consider what artifacts remain hidden in Israeli government offices because they contradict the established view of their history and religion.

      There are private histories.

    10. Re:Lost??? by drwho · · Score: 1
      If I could, though, i'd love to buy a bit of it by the ton...


      Here in Boston, we have had a few rich citizens do this in the past. Isabella Stuart Gardner and John Hays Hammond come to mind. Both of their houses are now museums and are remarkable: Gardner's for the art (paintings, sculpture, etc) and Hammond's for the architecture and history (he build a castle out of the pieces of many european castles, and filled it with much medieval stuff).

      It simply wouldn't be possible to do this today. Europeans hold onto their art much more than they used to (and the dollar isn't worth as much)

    11. Re:Lost??? by irote · · Score: 1

      Which documents are illegal to hold in Europe? And what antiquities are confiscated by governments if they are found in private possession? I'm somewhat confused...

  16. Re:Newton should have hung himself by Loonacy · · Score: 1

    Yes, because knowing methods of how to counterfeit in NO WAY helps you fight counterfeiters.

  17. felon? by ErichTheWebGuy · · Score: 0

    So, we have been basing our laws on physics on the rants of a known felon? I propose we repeal all laws of physics straight-away!!

    Seriously, though, is it really that much of a stretch to think that through various processes, we can transform lead into gold? I mean, think about a nuclear reactor. Uranium can be (and is) transformed into plutonium, barium, iodine, strontium, caesium, krypton, etc. etc. etc. on a daily basis. Given the right amount of research, funding, and time, I firmly believe that we could produce gold, or any other element/compound, at will.

    --
    bash: rtfm: command not found
    1. Re:felon? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Well, it certainly wasn't a stretch back then, because they didn't know that lead and gold were atomically different and could not be changed to each other via chemical means.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    2. Re:felon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We can, lead has been turned into gold already, it's just not worth it. The limiting resource is energy, fossil fuels are no good, we need something better, much better.

  18. First slasdotter ever! by BlackMesaLabs · · Score: 5, Funny

    Found in his notes:
    1)Find lead
    2)Convert to gold
    3)Profit!!

    1. Re:First slasdotter ever! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      worst joke EVER!!!

      I mean seriously, get a fuckin life man!

    2. Re:First slasdotter ever! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope

      It goes like this

      1) Find Lead
      2) Paint it Gold
      3) Find Moron
      4) Profit

  19. src 4 another baroque book, Neal? by gunship167 · · Score: 1

    At least we now KNOW that there's more ("new") material for another 1000 or so pages to Stephenson's Baroque Cycle... Maybe even more commentary viz. Newton and Leibnitz (...seguing to Gödel, Escher, and Bach?). i 4 1 am ready for some more well-rendered tasty math/physics/etc...

    1. Re:src 4 another baroque book, Neal? by argent · · Score: 1

      Oh god no, I barely managed to wade through the first book of Gypsy Family Robinson anachronisms from Half-cocked Jack and his girlfriend who MUST have been a time-traveller from the 20th century.

      Of course he really ought to rewrite chunks of it now that we've found out the black plague wasn't the bubonic plague after all... maybe he can use this new material when he goes back and fixes the rest of it.

  20. Early spam? by duncanbojangles · · Score: 3, Funny

    From the article:
    "It is therefore no wonder that - in their advice lay before us the rule of nature in obtaining the great secret both for medicine & transmutation. And if I may have the liberty of expression give me leave to assert as my opinion that it is effectual in all the three kingdoms & from every species may be produced when the modus is rightly understood: only mineralls produce minerals & sic de calmis. But the hidden secret modus is Clissus Paracelsi wch is nothing else but the separation of the principles thris purification & reunion in a fusible & penetrating fixity."

    Is it just me, or does that snippet of manuscript read like spam to you guys?

  21. Simple by asadsalm · · Score: 5, Funny

    Oh... you didn't know?

    You can make gold by a simple double decomposition reaction. You just need Copper and Aluminium:

    Cu + Al = Au + Cl

    :)

    1. Re:Simple by DarkHelmet · · Score: 1
      Only on slashdot will there be people who not only understand the joke, but laugh at it instead of want to hurl large objects in your direction.

      Be proud!

      --
      /^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
    2. Re:Simple by earthbound+kid · · Score: 1

      Dude, are you nuts? That formula produces toxic amounts of Chlorine gas!! Anyone fool enough to try to extract the gold from that mixture would have their lungs dissolve in their chest.

      Much safer is Pa + U = P + Au. Nothing dangerous about good old phosphorus, right?

    3. Re:Simple by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      I'd rater avoid the uranium. What about Cu + Ar = Au + Cr?

    4. Re:Simple by earthbound+kid · · Score: 1

      It creates unwanted biproducts, Ca + Ru, but otherwise it's OK.

    5. Re:Simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That doesn't work, chemical elements are CaSe SeNsItIvE

    6. Re:Simple by BitterOak · · Score: 1
      It wouldn't work. Argon is an inert gas. Geez, what do they teach kids in high school chemistry these days?!

      --
      If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
    7. Re:Simple by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      It is actually possible to get "inert" gases to react.

    8. Re:Simple by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      Ca is unwanted? But it does a body good!

    9. Re:Simple by sharkey · · Score: 1

      Well, in MY high school chemistry class, I learned how to duplicate the teacher's handwriting and modify the grade book so conveniently left on his desk.

      --

      --
      "Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
  22. Useful alchemy by Mortiss · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Alchemy while often laughed at has provided not only basis for chemistry it has lead to some practical discoveries. For example, discovery of porcelain in Europe is attributed to one of the court alchemists (forgot the name thou).

    Can anyone recall other discoveries, pioneered by alchemists ?

    Even now a days scientists in the lab often peroform semi-"silly" experiments (late at night) which are based on only partial understanding and hunch. Those often yield intersting results which warrant proper scinetific research.

    P.S.You would be surprised what sort of results you can get when you start throwing random synthetic peptides on the virus infected cells. :)

    1. Re:Useful alchemy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alchemy while often laughed at has provided not only basis for chemistry it has lead to some practical discoveries.

      A stopped watch is right twice a day, and all that.

    2. Re:Useful alchemy by Mortiss · · Score: 1

      Well, with this kind of attitude might as well lie on the grass and wait for inventions to fall from the sky.

      However misguided and uninformed, these people have at least tried. All discoveries start somewhere.

    3. Re:Useful alchemy by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 1
      Even now a days scientists in the lab often peroform semi-"silly" experiments (late at night) which are based on only partial understanding and hunch. Those often yield intersting results which warrant proper scinetific research.

      Indeed. Just look at the headlines for February '03's Journal of Shindig-Based Research, from the International Institute of Educated Guesses:

      A Theoretical Case for the Existence and Properties of the Uvulon: Chicks Dig It

      Superconductivity and the Superbowl

      Electron Shells as Resonators: I Am So Fucked Up Right Now

      Is That Ham? A Quantum Approach

      Beholders: Rar!

      (Gnu Bless Lore Sjoberg.)

    4. Re:Useful alchemy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The legacy of the alchemists was perhaps not in their explanations, but in their observations. Any chemist will tell you that, up to the highest levels, chemistry is a science which cannot be subject to the same mathematical elegancy of physics. Things like the valencies of common ions, or the electrochemical series are things which must be learnt - and satisfactory explanations are not given until comparatively higher levels in chemistry. They cannot be simply calculated.

      Thus the experiments of alchemists, while in vain, formed the basis of "modern chemistry". Things like the identification of metals such as iron and gold, the discovery of compounds such as sulphuric and nitric acid, or processes such as distillation, can be attributed to alchemists.

      Of course medieval alchemy was a pseudo-science at best. But the discoveries made along the way were vital to the science of chemistry.

  23. Re:Newton should have hung himself by ZosX · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Your signature is fucking obnoxious. That is by far the most piss-poor attempt at karma whoring I have ever seen on slashdot. Why don't you just fucking beg for mod points while you are at it. If I were Newton, I'd have YOU drawn and quartered for being the sad wannabe slashdot troll that you are.

  24. Imagine the shear amounts of energy involved... by interactive_civilian · · Score: 1
    so says ErichTheWebGuy
    Seriously, though, is it really that much of a stretch to think that through various processes, we can transform lead into gold?
    Ok, first off, IANANuclearPhysicist, so I am probably speaking out of my ass a bit (any Nuclear Physicists around, feel free to correct my assumptions).

    Anyway, I imagine on paper, it probably seems pretty simple. In nuclear fission reactors, we can get Uranium et al to break down to smaller atoms while releasing energy, but I imagine we don't really have much choice what it breaks down to. On the other hand, if we input a lot of energy we can fuse two hydrogen atoms into a helium atom (just out of curiosity, have we managed to fuse any larger atoms?). The theory seems simple on paper: break down an unstable atom and get energy, or put in a lot of energy and put two small atoms together. I don't know how stable the products are or how radioactive they are, I guess low and high respectively.

    In the imagination of a non-Nuclear-Physicist, it looks pretty simple...

    But, to be able to do this and control it specifically enough to actually choose the products that come out on a large enough scale to be usable will require ENORMOUS amounts of energy, won't it? Unless we manage to find sources of energy that seem quite common in science fiction, I don't imagine this becoming feasible, or at least not for a LONG time.

    Of course, on the other hand look how much science fiction has become science fact over the last 50 years, and I guess it isn't too unimaginable.

    --
    "Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
    1. Re:Imagine the shear amounts of energy involved... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      first off, IANANuclearPhysicist

      I am, so I feel somewhat qualified to speak on this topic :)

      will require ENORMOUS amounts of energy, won't it?

      And Einstein himself said that it would take far too much energy, more than ever could be produced by humans, to produce a nuclear weapon. That is, until a certain British nuclear physicist named Leo Szilard conceived of a method to control the release of atomic power via a multiplying chain reaction...

      look how much science fiction has become science fact over the last 50 years,

      indeed... Did anyone conceive of a single weapon as recently as 60 years ago that could destroy an entire city? How many people can be killed now with the push of a single button? A million? Two million? I can tell you that within my circle, conservative estimates put the figure at well over a billion before all is said and done.

      I guess it isn't too unimaginable

      Indeed not...

    2. Re:Imagine the shear amounts of energy involved... by Reziac · · Score: 1

      "On the other hand, if we input a lot of energy we can fuse two hydrogen atoms into a helium atom (just out of curiosity, have we managed to fuse any larger atoms?)"

      Well, just fuse a whole lot of hydrogen atoms, and you should wind up with gold, right? ;)

      [Scientists everywhere report instruments going haywire, as all the hydrogen is suddenly sucked out of the universe]

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  25. Newton, the foremost genius in history. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Read TFA... the final paper by Issac Newton was an explanation of how to trap photons in a condensate of UHBF crystallite bosons. Mind you, this is hundreds of years before Einstein was born or particle colliders were even conceived. Newton was building minature colliders from the work of local craftsmen and the money of the royals. If there was ever any doubt that Newton was the premier genius of all time, it can be put to rest.

  26. Fun for the whole Family! by zmilo · · Score: 0

    Drawing from the Baroque Cycle, I now have created the Penultimate Game that applies to any Slashdot story: Six Degrees to Neal Stephenson!

  27. Gah! by erikharrison · · Score: 1

    Don't give them ideas!

  28. Re:Important Question... by koreaman · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    He thinks we should all go live in a lame but fully libertarian society where all we can do to escape the madness is dick around in an alternate online reality, getting infected by viruses along the way.

  29. [OT] by dephiance · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Is Zonk the weekend publisher?

  30. I wonder... by Mongoose · · Score: 1

    If he leveled up enough to get the +20 modifier for eating materials for effects. Alchemy has always been a favorite cross-class skill of mine too!

    I figure newton would love to play a CRPG. "Oh shit! That's totally my laws of physics... wait why is the beast clipping out of the world! My theories!"

  31. As far as the Pope being the Anti-Christ..... by Arren · · Score: 4, Insightful

    .....You could do a lot worse than that as far as Christian fundamentalist obsessions go. Metaphorically speaking, as the figurehead of an international syndicate that has been banking off the perversion of Christ's teachings for two millennia, preying on the (near-)universal human need to understand our meaningful* place in the 'grand scheme of things' (which may or may not exist)..... yeah, that'll do for a Satanic archetype any day of the week. Especially Sunday. * in my opinion, as individuals we struggle to reconcile our subliminal awareness of the collective consciousness with the egoistic nature of our minds and sensory perceptions..... to me this is the impetus for the search for 'meaningfulness'.....

  32. So true. Applicable in society, commerce, & co by NRAdude · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Alchemy is the transmutation resulting from the equal exchange of two distinct and separate matters. You can see it used today in the statutes of a state; it gives attention by its founding jurisdiction. Anything that is defined on paper is an application to the jurisdiction inherint in the courts established by that state or of the court superceding it. You'll never find an activating statute or "enabling clause" because statutes aren't law but serve to direct alien pursuits by a declaration at the verry encounter. They aren't alchemy until you volunteer to be converted and processed as a person. By the way, "person" originated in 14th century old french as a "mask worn from time to time". Are you a person (mask), a thing? There is your alchemy! Currently(!), the mechanism used by agents of the United States use confession and voluntary incrimination by use of a pen in order to presume this form of alchemy. IRS, US Treasury, Trust, Fund, all commit this same alchemy. I'll be composing a website on this feat soon, precept to a treatise on Redemption. Watch my journal for an update and direction to en.WikiPedia.org. I'm happy to say that Alchemy is not an agreeable form of involuntary process because in past days it was looked upon as an interpreted curse of witchcraft. Ask someone who they are and they'll confuse their time-clocked mask (person) with the religion in statutes, codes, treatise, and revenue police(y). It all appears justified, until the vigors of application are intent on your asphyxiation. Alchemy is equally applicable in representing the character of judicial proceedings, no less as electricity in the movement of societal energy. Not many people realize the alchemy in their daily life. Count for one the relative assignment of "I am" and how many people unconciously re-define themselves. "I am" this and "am I" that, but truth stands unchanged: just a man, standing on land, seeking-out living water; so saith Jesus. The structure of language flows as orders from a judge in an eternal courtroom: declarations, motions, quest(s/ions); and in person it is the movement of societal energy, or out of person it is the face of God moving across living water(!). Some construe societal structures radiating energy as being commerce; whereas even the (re)sister in their family is a key component in the huge scheme of things. I prefer to bipass the circuited courtship and move to remedy the affections directly in the supreme; call me biased if you want, but these 7th amendment "supplanted" inferior courts of limited jurisdiction only serve corporate interests in bipassing the Constitution with their orders of operation by one component per clocked cycle until all have been inducted into the corporate welfare state. Most people don't realize that it is not man, but a thing of man that serves as a component in circuit with others. In marriages: the combination of flesh, but in combining words and recorded to the movement of life from one branch(!) to another is an acceptable marriage (or merger), but is not the true marriage whence a child is born. In conveying the matter in a court of law, every aspect is as though an orchestra performing to describe the motion of SHIPS(citizen/battle/friend); whereas canons(!) are anointed with ink onto the respective wad of papers; brutish intruments to furl the matter composed of notes, transmitted(!) under the eyes of a conductor(!), and a neutral audience sitting to hear the motions with an amusing biase(!) for good and bad form. To me, it sounds like someone listening to a radio on a hot day. For each motion to discern between the man operating the vessel and its on-board transmitting utility as referenced in the Uniform Commercial Code, there is foundation. This is the alchemy hidden in the laws of man. The only people able to compete with

    --
    without prejudice
  33. So, now we have "felony" in the UK. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    I think not.

    Happy treasonous rebelion day, MoFo's.

    1. Re:So, now we have "felony" in the UK. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might wish to brush up on the history of your own country.

      Up until only very recently, the UK _had_ separation of felony and misdeamenor crimes, and this is the basis for this concept in our countries based on the Anglo-Saxon system of law. Law under Henry IV certainly would have included felonies.

  34. thats right by commodoresloat · · Score: 1

    Lead into gold - there's nothing crazy about it at all. How the hell else do you think cockroaches will be able to afford this car?

  35. Christian fundamentalist? by NRAdude · · Score: 0

    Greetings friend! This post may be a little offtopic, but it was just to abate the matter of Newton being an alleged "Christian Fundamentalist". Moderators, please have mercy...

    I'll express all that I hope would solve the Satanic riddle. This pseudonym known as "Christian fundamentalist", intent on supplanting scripture is somewhat odd. If a man bears false witness of himself declaring such as "Christian," but by his actions is not Christian is he called a "Christian fundamentalist"? If there is any applicable fundamentalism, then it would rest on the compounded summary of the ten commandments and I show forth:

    Matthew 22:35-50;
    "[35]Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, [36]Master, which is the great commandment in the law?[37]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.[38]This is the first and great commandment.[39]And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[40]On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

    Jesus advocated the ten commandments, and with God-like precision he compounded the ten with two.

    That Pope is not in the original estate, but as a "Viccar" (imitation). Comparing the Pope to Jesus is like comparing Tofu to milk. I hope you don't forget that Adolph Hitler was in the blessings of the Pope of his day. Any words and actions that are not in scope and premise of the ten commandments, even as compounded by Jesus the Christ, surely you have authority by God to divide the truth from the lies. It's no different when people are confronted for doing this by so-called "Christian fundamentalists"; they're full of pride, hiding behind a goodly name, and don't realize they are the Synagogue of Satan. Yet, none who claim someon is Satanic doesn't actually know what Satan is but by comprehending the opposite of scripture. I suppose that any Bible can be Host also to those in opposition to it, such as Landover Baptist..

    --
    without prejudice
    1. Re:Christian fundamentalist? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Total and utter fucking shit.

    2. Re:Christian fundamentalist? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shit??? Anyone have a spoon!? God, I just hope it's still warm!

  36. Not my fault the Slashdot HTML is broken. -1? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That is not fair. I've typed what I know on this subject and was not trolling. I had it all separated into four paragraphs, and thanks to Slashdot it has been reformatted into what looks like a treatise from a paraplegic monkey :-). This is what I don't like about moderators: they mod it down within feif minutes of posting, preventing the information from any view at the respectable post level. There is nothing bad in that post.

    I can't wait to see a Slashdot patch that shows who is moderating each post. It's like renegade judges in here.

    And there should be three separate blocks of text in this post, including this sentance; no different than how I posted the previous post that was modded -1 Troll.

    1. Re:Not my fault the Slashdot HTML is broken. -1? by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      You got modded for Ballmer being a troll

      Linux "a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches.", Steve Ballmer

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    2. Re:Not my fault the Slashdot HTML is broken. -1? by Moderatbastard · · Score: 0

      You probably got modded down because what you write sounds more like a cross between Star Trek technobabble and a scientology pamphlet than a scienific treatise: "Alchemy is equally applicable in representing the character of judicial proceedings, no less as electricity in the movement of societal energy". That's such twaddle it's not even wrong. For the benefit of the 'dromer who modded the grandparent up, the google link goes to a list of circuit diagram symbols. Very insightful.

      --
      1/3 of jokes get modded OT. If you get the joke, mod 1 in 3 insightful/interesting/underrated to restore karma balance.
  37. Re:Anyone here from Anchorage, AK? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's a flocking instinct. If they all look the same, there's less chance of predators specifically targeting them.

    Just watch out for the big yellow vans. You'll know one is close if you don't see any dark green Subarus.

    HTH. HAND.

  38. Startling confession! by Zork+the+Almighty · · Score: 3, Funny

    Apparently the theory of gravity was all just a hoax! Religious conservatives will be happy - it was after all "only a theory" and not real science, like intelligent design.

    --

    In Soviet America the banks rob you!
  39. Lots of scientists were also quacks by trime · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Bill Bryson has some interesting examples in his book 'A Complete History of Nearly Everything'. Such as a noted geologist who published several rather long and dry but important papers about rock formation, but was convinced that given the right materials, he could make himself invisible.

    The discovery of matches arose from a scientist convinced that urine could be turned into gold (primarily due to the colour similarity). He had buckets of it in his basement, and eventually they evapourated to form a compound high in phosphor which would spontateously ignite. At one time this substance was so valuable they enlisted the entire Swedish (I think, some northern European) army to generate bucketloads of urine. It turned out to be worth 5x its weight in gold!

    Newton also did other experiments, such as staring at the sun until he couldn't bare the pain, to see what would happen; he once stuck a needle in his eyeball and moved it around. In both cases (amazingly) he suffered no long term damage, but did have to spend a long time inside after staring at the sun before his vision returned.

    Just because we (the unwashed masses) now 'understand' science, we have a different opinion of what now seems ludicrous in the past. Imagine what Newton would have thought of quantum mechanics (heck, I think it's quackery and I have a degree in physics!). Nature is weird and wonderful, and often the only way we can seperate fantasy from fantastic reality is through seemingly bizzare experimentation.

    1. Re:Lots of scientists were also quacks by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      devising experiments which explore popularly held beliefs doesn't make them quacks. We still have that going on today, and even in the slashdot science section we see articles reporting the debunking of popular misconceptions that even our scientists hold. By the way, Newton DID hold to a quantum theory: he believed light was composed of particles.

    2. Re:Lots of scientists were also quacks by Buradorii · · Score: 1

      So, basically, to be a good scientist, you need to be an insane masochist?

      --
      You can live your life in a thousand ways, but it call comes down to that single day...
    3. Re:Lots of scientists were also quacks by DavidTC · · Score: 1
      It turned out to be worth 5x its weight in gold!

      So they did, in fact, turn urine into gold? ;)

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    4. Re:Lots of scientists were also quacks by arbitraryaardvark · · Score: 1

      (could be redundant, i havent read thru every post)
      One of the reasons Newton did some strange things is that as part of his alchemical investigations, he played around with mercury (quicksilver) and got mercury poisoning. A symptom of mercury poisoning is madness -"mad as a hatter" is an expression from a period when hatters used mercury.
      So it's useful to distinguish his earlier work from his later. By the standards of a couple hundred years from now, some of us are crazy as a result of work-related exposure to toxins.

    5. Re:Lots of scientists were also quacks by MacDork · · Score: 1
      Newton also did other experiments, such as staring at the sun until he couldn't bare the pain, to see what would happen; he once stuck a needle in his eyeball and moved it around.
      Newton: I promise you it will work. Just bring me a pound of lead and I'll show you!

      Scientist2: Bullocks! There's no way I'm hauling a pound of lead all the way up here just so you can..

      Newton: Just go get the lead. I *PROMISE* you it will work! Cross my heart, hope to die, stick a needle in ...

      ... Later ...

      Newton: DAMN IT!

  40. Plus ça change, plus c'est la meme chose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    The notes are written about alchemy, which some scientists in Newton's time believed to hold the secret for transforming base metals, such as lead, into the more precious metals of gold or silver...


    1. lead
    2. ?
    3. profit!

    '...The notes reflect a part of Newton's life which he kept hidden from public scrutiny during his lifetime, in part because the making of gold or silver was a felony and had been since a law was passed by Henry IV in 1404.'


    Rich guy takes out patent to stifle innovation by little guy.

    Who needs the good old days?
  41. Re:Newton = First Nigerian Scammer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    not redundant.

  42. Re:Newton should have hung himself by JimmehAH · · Score: 1

    It doesn't even work if you browse at -1 like every good mod should do.

  43. Newton decoded by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

    When the notes were decoded, they made reference to "Eat up Martha".

    --
    One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    1. Re:Newton decoded by multipartmixed · · Score: 1

      Wow, the moderators here must not watch the Simpsons!

      LOL.

      --

      Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
  44. How sad..... by ShyGuy91284 · · Score: 1

    I was hoping he would have stumbled upon something that would have turned the science world upside down like his laws of motion (no pun intended) or Calculus.... Like putting a little twist on Alchemy/Chemistry we never knew about...... Hey, it's possible. He wasn't extremely vocal about his other discoveries at first from what I have heard.

    --
    In undeveloped countries, the consumer controls the market. In capitalist America, the market controls you.
  45. dhazard's law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Um... How is this interesting if it was posted on /. a few days back?

    From which we can derive dhazard's law: once something has been posted to Slashdot, it's no longer interesting.

  46. Read "Dark Matter" (novel) if interested in this.. by blakespot · · Score: 1
    If interested in this aspect of Newton's life, read the novel Dark Matter : The Private Life of Sir Isaac Newton: A Novel by Philip Kerr. It's a fictional murder mystery set in the Tower of London, during the turn of the 17th century, but the backdrop is set in fact. Newton lead the recoinage of the period and held a post in the tower and indeed was involved in alchemy as well as casting off the requisite religious beliefs of the day.

    A good read. You'll never think of Newton the same again.


    blakespot

    --
    -- Heisenberg may have slept here.
    iPod Hacks.com
  47. Newton's biggest problem by panurge · · Score: 1
    Was that there wasn't much for a full on geek to get on with. Galileo Galilei was at least a genius instrument maker whose day job was challenging - but he had enough spare time to get into real trouble. Newton had all that brain and nothing much to think about, so he spent time going down dark alleys like Protestant biblical exegesis, numerology and alchemy while making major contributions in cosmology, physics and mathematics, and being a successful civil servant. If someone had been able to introduce him to, say, Linux kernel development, dragster racing, or technical rock climbing, he'd have grown up a normal well adjusted individual, like similar people nowadays.

    Did I just write that? Better not press the Submit button.

    --
    Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
  48. are nuclear physicists liable ? by dario_moreno · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In England laws from the middle ages are still in vigour (it is forbidden for instance to kill or wound a fairy). So I wonder if nuclear physicists are liable for having transmuted matter in nuclear reactors, like in the one around Oxford..

    --
    Google passes Turing test : see my journal
    1. Re:are nuclear physicists liable ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do not believe in fairies!

      Crap

    2. Re:are nuclear physicists liable ? by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      it is forbidden for instance to kill or wound a fairy

      Well DUH! When should it ever be legal to kill/wound a faggot?

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    3. Re:are nuclear physicists liable ? by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      As the evil Goldfinger will tell you, gold with a deadly amount of radioactivity isn't worth much.

    4. Re:are nuclear physicists liable ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      In England laws from the middle ages are still in vigour (it is forbidden for instance to kill or wound a fairy).
      Nowadays, thanks to vilification laws, you can't even insult them.
  49. Also Found by FrankDrebin · · Score: 4, Funny

    Incantation 229

    Take the pod of durham and triticale, mill to fine white powder. Add bovine lactation, and yolk from flightless fowl. Reduce fruit of fig tree, fill earlier mixture and fire result for 15 minutes. Alas, it is not gold, but these Fig Newtons do sell rather well.

    --
    Anybody want a peanut?
    1. Re:Also Found by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does anyone else remember a Superman comic that had Bizarro travel back in time to drop a fig on Newton's head, so that Newton invented fig newton's, instead of discovering gravity?

  50. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  51. Illegal...not really by drwho · · Score: 2, Informative

    According to C.J.S. Thompson in his book "The Lure and Romance of Alchemy" ) on page 140, he says that is was in 1414 that King Henry IV forbidding the use of the craft [alchemy] in efforts to multiply gold [Thompson says nothing about silver], and the penalty for contravening it was considerable. On the other hand, the practice of alchemy was legalized pursuant to letter patents, and various persons were granted permission or licences to carry on the art of transmuting metals."

    Is it likely that someone so notable as Newton, in such a prominent and respected organization as the Royal Society, would have had any trouble obtaining such a license from the king? I hardly think so. In fact, Newton did dabble in alchemy and was in contact with noted alchemists during his life.

    What is more likely is that, during the 17th century, alchemy had fallen into disrepute (especially after Ben Johnson's play "The Alchemist"), and that his alchemical interests were hidden (occulted?) by those who would hold Newton up as the achetype of the modern scientist, trying to break with the alchemical tradition.

    See my other comments to this story on what I think alchemy really is.

  52. Re:Read "Dark Matter" (novel) if interested in thi by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

    Newton was appointed head of the Royal Mint.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  53. Re:sigh by lousyd · · Score: 1
    I don't think that's an English Sentence grammatical.

    *snicker* I think also that "alchemy, which some scientists in Newton's time believed to hold the secret for transforming base metals" is ungrammatical. It should probably be, "some scientists in Newton's time believed held the secret". I could be wrong, but I'm certainly clearer.

    --
    If aspiration is a virtue, achievement cannot be a vice.
  54. Isn't it ironic by ewe2 · · Score: 1

    ...that Newton ended up running the Royal Mint? Neal Stephenson's amusing hypothesis, that Newton only ran the Mint in order to keep tabs on alchemical gold (see the Baroque Cycle books), is a lot more fun than the drudgery of reports like these which were a staple of the job, if you can call manipulating the gold price as alchemy.

    --
    insecurity asks the wrong question irritation gives the wrong answer
  55. Twelve Monkeys by mosel-saar-ruwer · · Score: 1

    P.S.You would be surprised what sort of results you can get when you start throwing random synthetic peptides on the virus infected cells. :)

    Hopefully nothing like what David Morse's character was up to in this Bruce Willis vehicle.

  56. Orthodoxy is required, to the first approximation by ccmay · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I think the reason he is seen as a giant of science is because he was not straightjacketed by orthodoxy.

    There are different types of challenges to scientific orthodoxy. Though we are not omniscient, our understanding of the world advances ever closer to perfection. Some challengers to scientific orthodoxy are far more wrong than others.

    Asimov used the example of the shape of the earth, as understood over the centuries, to illustrate this:

    • The man who said the earth was a flat disc spinning in space was wrong, but not as wrong as the man who said it was the shell of a giant tortoise standing on elephants.
    • The man who said it was a sphere was wrong, but not as wrong as the flat-disc guy.
    • The man who said it was an oblate spheroid was wrong, but not as wrong as the fellow who said it was a sphere.
    • The man who said it was almost an oblate spheroid with a few little bulges here and there, and described them in a scientific paper wih measurements accurate to within a meter or so, is still wrong, but not as wrong as all who have gone before him.

    So Einstein's special relativity approximates to Newton's laws of motion when v is much less than c. The quantum model of the atom approximates to Bohr's model of the atom in every high school chemistry lab. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle applies to every mass, but is unmeasurably small except on the scale of electrons and photons and quarks.

    All the great challenges to scientific orthodoxy, for all their brilliance and insight, give results comparable to accepted orthodox wisdom except at the extremes of measurement. If someone makes a claim that does not fit this pattern, he can safely be dismissed as a crank or charlatan.

    Newton was a genius when it came to mathematics and physics, and a deluded fool when it came to chemistry. These are not mutually exclusive propositions.

    -ccm

    --
    Too much Law; not enough Order.
  57. is anyone else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is anyone else getting really irritated that they keep finding lost works like this and they're keeping it to themselves? They should scan this stuff in and put it on the web. It's not like it is copyright anymore.

  58. would you touch the material? by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 1

    That is in a furnace?

    If you put an emitting source in a furnace, heck, even in a campfire, how would you tell now that it is emitting? Its warmth is not noticeable.

    You'd need to feel the actual effects of the emitted radiation, to fit in the with the quote.

    I didn't think that it was possible to feel the heating effects of radiation and survive. But it appears I am wrong, because down below ColaMan links to a site with info that seems to indicate that it happened.

    I still think it is very unlikely alchemists were making piles (as you say). To create a criticality with materials you just find around is quite difficult. You really need enriched materials, and these are difficult to make even if you know you are making them, let alone by accident!

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
    1. Re:would you touch the material? by AKAImBatman · · Score: 1

      If you put an emitting source in a furnace, heck, even in a campfire, how would you tell now that it is emitting? Its warmth is not noticeable.

      I really have no idea what you're getting at. The rocks would have been warm to the touch. That's it. Why you think it matters that they were hot in an unfissioned furnace is beyond me. Once the pile starts fissioning, though, you'd get plenty of heat and light.

      I didn't think that it was possible to feel the heating effects of radiation and survive. But it appears I am wrong, because down below ColaMan links to a site with info that seems to indicate that it happened.

      Of course you can survive. Radiation doesn't melt you. It just starts breaking down the occasional molecular bond. The problem is that in the presence of a lot of radiation, your DNA is toast. Unfortunately, you won't feel those effects until the next few generations of cells begin to attempt to make use of the massive number of transcription errors.

      I still think it is very unlikely alchemists were making piles (as you say). To create a criticality with materials you just find around is quite difficult. You really need enriched materials, and these are difficult to make even if you know you are making them, let alone by accident!

      Basic enrichment isn't too bad. I used to have some cutesy instructions laying around for how to do it in your backyard with a few buckets. Ah, here we are. Keep in mind that you don't need the same purity for an atomic pile as you need for a bomb. Just as long as you can get enough of it (say, from the Ozark cave I linked to) and can purify it to a reasonable degree (basic metallurgy/smelting, perhaps?) then you should be able to increase the rate of fission in the materials.

  59. Re:Read "Dark Matter" (novel) if interested in thi by blakespot · · Score: 1

    Indeed. That is his appointment in the aforementioned novel.

    blakespot

    --
    -- Heisenberg may have slept here.
    iPod Hacks.com
  60. Re:Newton should have hung himself by ZosX · · Score: 1

    He had actually gotten modded up. I think my comment got him modded down, at the expense of some karma. Oh well. :)

  61. Newton at the beginning of the scientific method by peter303 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You have to remember that Newton was almost a founding member of the first scientific society (The Royal Philosophical Society) and first scientific journal (its letters and minutes). It was innovative that a bunch of scientists would read their results to each other, debate them, and reproduce or discredit them. In the past professionals could either be guild-like secretive or accept ideas without reproduceable proof.
    So Newtown was on the cusp. He was tardy disseminating his ideas, some which never made it out of his private writings.

  62. was Newton an autistic numerologist? by peter303 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    One common thread with Newton's researches was his search for numerical patterns in all kinds of things whether it was the motion of heavenly bodies, chemical reactions, or Biblical chronologies. In his day the division between "kosher scientific" and psuedo-science subjects was not yet distinct.

    Newton was thought to have a mild case of autism called Aspegers. Many of these people are infatuated with numbers and patterns and music, e.g. the Rainmaker movie. whether the guy could do all sorts of "hard" calculations. These people also have difficulty in social situations, unable to read and deal with interpersonal emotion. Newton was an eccentric who had a hard time making any friends at all.

    1. Re:was Newton an autistic numerologist? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is not unlikely.

      And it should be noted that most notable intellectuals (especially in such fields as science and math) of the past arguably tend to have traits indicative of either Asperger, ADD or both.

      Nowadays we effectively get rid of such social aberrations by conditioning and aversion therapies, as well as the use of drugs that are often not optimal for the job. Also, school has become very effective at dissuading such individuals from doing anything productive with their lives.

      (Don't get me wrong, I think its great that these drugs are available, and in some cases it's even necessary to use them before the person reaches an age where they can decide for themselves.)

    2. Re:was Newton an autistic numerologist? by Jose-S · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Newton was thought to have a mild case of autism called Aspegers.

      I'm not sure that could be determined at this point, but I do hear that he stuttered and had epilepsy, so it could be. I'm sure it's possible to be intelligent and be mostly normal/conventional/neurotypical in most other respects at the same time. But to achieve the things guys like Newton have achieved, the level of perseveration has to be such that they at least need to be OCD. I hear Thomas Edison didn't read until he was 12 -- had some learning disability. Graham Bell, I believe was dyslexic. Einstein is controversial, but this is fairly well documented in the "Einstein Syndrome:" He was a late talker, and couldn't really speak fluently until the age of 9. Had violent temper tantrums. Repeated every sentence he uttered. Was considered retarted by his elementary school teachers. (I'm pretty sure Einstein today would be diagnosed HFA and put on Ritalin.) Consider also Howard Hughes -- just go see "The Aviator." Someone here mentioned recently that James Gosling "amazingly" doesn't seem to have good social skills. I think I could go on for ever with this.

      There are also cases of autistic individuals considered retarted who later in life are determined to have very high IQs (even though a lot of times they still cannot communicate verbally.) There was a documentary in CNN recently about a woman such as this.

      I for one don't consider true high-functioning autism a disease or a disorder. It's just neurological diversity, for which there's very little tolerance, and is plagued by ridiculous stereotypes.

  63. Paracelsus by wytcld · · Score: 1

    But the hidden secret modus is Clissus Paracelsi

    Paracelsus' grave is in a small courtyard in Salzburg, Austria. The inscription emphasizes that he was a great physician who healed many people. The old churches in Salzburg are beautifully Baroque and mainly decorated with the eye-in-pyramid motif.

    A later prince-bishop had a hydraulic-robotic aviary which could reportedly produce a great many bird calls accurately.

    Fascinating people there, upon a time. Wonder if any of Newton's successful "science" was also derived from Paracelsus?

    --
    "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
    1. Re:Paracelsus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also the birthplace of Mozart - there must be something in the water...

  64. [OT] Another way to lose priceless artefacts by toby · · Score: 1
    As a non-American, I can say, thanks, Bush and your cronies, for respecting human cultural heritage:
    The looting of the National Museum in Baghdad two years ago caused an international outcry. In the chaos that engulfed the city at the end of the war, thousands of pieces were either stolen or damaged. ...

    One of the world's leading experts on the country's antiquities says there is evidence that archaeological treasures are being systematically plundered. "What's going on here is worse than what happened with the Baghdad museum," says Professor Elizabeth Stone of Stonybrook University in New York. ...

    "Archaeological sites are being destroyed in order to find these objects," says Dr John Curtis, head of the Ancient Near East department at the British Museum in London. "In the process of that looting, very important archaeological evidence gets lost. And it's this evidence that can tell us a great deal about the civilisation."

    Ancient Mesopotamia - modern Iraq - is often called the cradle of civilisation. It is a description richly deserved, says Dr Curtis, as Mesopotamia is the place where writing, medicine, mathematics and astronomy all began.

    --
    you had me at #!
  65. Just to complete the idea... by benhocking · · Score: 1

    Similarly, Einstein's theories are wrong, as is the quantum model of the atom, although both of these were improvements on the theories that preceded them. String theory is also wrong, and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle might also be wrong, but I'm not ... certain ... about that one. Nevertheless, these are all good theories because they improve on the theories before them in some way (well, string theory still has a way to go before that can be said without argument), and can be shown to be false. In fact, much of the early advances in quantum theory came by Einstein proposing means of showing it to be false!

    --
    Ben Hocking
    Need a professional organizer?
  66. furnace straight from hell by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 1

    'Apparently, many accounts of alchemists include information such as "they had a furnace straight from hell" and that they "suddenly developed lesions and died a few days later."'

    That's your quote. They put the stuff in the furnace, then they say the furnace is hotter than normal. For that to be the case, they'd have to be feeling the effects of the radiation, not feeling that the lump is 30C in a room that is 25C. I don't see how the self-heating of these lumps would fit in with the quote you posted. That was my original point.

    Again, in your next quote, I said feel the heating effects of radiation and survive. I know you can survive radiation bursts, you normally do, you would survive 1-2 days without tons of medical treatment. And yes, radiation will burn/char you in high doses. I thought by the time you felt the heating effects, you would fall into this category. I was wrong.

    Your enrichment post is a joke. Apparently you missed it though. You're not going to separate useful amounts of U235 with a bucket centrifuge. And remember also that your instructions have the advantage of understanding nuclear physics. How difficult is enrichment when you don't even know what it is or that you need to do it? Very.

    And as to your comments about that mine in the Ozarks, even if it contains fissile material at all, it is very unlikely that it is a material that could be usefully used to create a critical reaction. And you're not going to feel the heating effects of a reaction that isn't at least very close to critical.

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
    1. Re:furnace straight from hell by AKAImBatman · · Score: 1

      That's your quote. They put the stuff in the furnace, then they say the furnace is hotter than normal.

      It's called an atomic pile. Get enough together and it fissions. Why is that so hard to understand?

      Your enrichment post is a joke. Apparently you missed it though.

      Are you American? I'm guessing not, because you seem to have some difficulty following the words that are coming out of my mouth. The word "cutesy" in slang means "something that has an amusing quality to it."

      i.e. Of *course* it's a joke! Or more specifically, it's satire. Satire is the practice of taking something that is serious and showing the amusing side of it. In this case the article shows how to make UHF in your backyar. The qualifiers that demonstrate how dangerous it is and how long it will take are intended to add humor to the article, and show how unreasonable it is to make a bomb. That doesn't mean that you can't make a simple fission pile, though.

  67. Mod Parent Down - Cookies taste like shit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    nt

  68. Re:sigh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's the long-lost last line of "Old Mother Hubbard."

  69. Pseudo science is the eternal parent of science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Modern science exists because of the efforts of the pseudo-scientists of the past. For thousands of years the principle funded scientific activity was Astrology, which led to the secondary supporting activity of Astronomy. Governments have never been interested in science for its own sake, and society as a whole believed that personal and social destiny was expressed by the motions of the planets. For this reason only was so much effort spent on measuring the motions of the planets. Without this pseudo-scientific belief in the significance of heavenly motion, the science developed through the lineage of unnamed Babylonians, Ptolemy, Copernicus, Brahe, Kepler, and finally Newton would never have been supported. Newton was the end of the Astrological line here, and took himself no interest in Astrology. But his immediate predecessor Kepler is considered by many to have been the most successful Astrologer in history, though he kept his method to himself.

    As astronomy, calculus, and mechanics can look to Astrology as the supportive parent, so, perhaps, can Chemistry look to alchemy.

    In any case note that it is not the attempt itself that is unscientific, but the method. There is nothing necessarily pseudo about looking at the effect of planetary positions on human behavior, as long as one proceeds in an accepted scientific fashion. It is also instructive to consider that the leading Astrologers of the past considered themselves the best of scientists, and were respected by society as great modern scientists are. Our contemporary fashion of science may look equally pseudo from the perspective of the future.

  70. Re:Modern day alchemists by elhaf · · Score: 1

    Hackers turn caffiene into software (exchangeable for gold in some parts) all the time.

    --
    Six score characters.
    Brevity being wit's soul
    I have enough space.
  71. Read your Stephenson by elhaf · · Score: 1

    The baroque cycle by Neal Stephenson covers many of these topics in a historical fiction way. I would expect that many slashdot nerds by now would have read this. The Royal Society also did dog vivisection, but supposedly Newton was against that. He did experiments on his own eyeballs to determine their optical properties, etc. I expect, it being Stephenson, most of this is factual.

    --
    Six score characters.
    Brevity being wit's soul
    I have enough space.
  72. Story of Mexican Chrome (TM) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A friend of mine sells used cars. He showed me a trick, where if he painted a car's wheels with silver paint then more people would buy cars. Some cars didn't have hubcaps, so he just painted the spokes that were assembled around the lugnuts. Some wheels were just ugly rims and he'ld paint those silver too. I was amazed at what such a lame-ass wheel paint-job would improve, but I think people in general are to blame.

    1) Take old crappy car
    2) Paint wheels with silver-chrome paint
    3) ???
    4) Profit!

  73. I liked it the first time... by Rollie+Hawk · · Score: 1

    ... when it was called Hudson Hawk.

    --
    Before any liberals are tempted to mod up one of my comments, a word of warning: I'm actually making fun of you.
  74. alchemists in 20/21st century by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    these days alchemists transform crappy OSes in to gold

  75. jim morrison on alchemy by johnrpenner · · Score: 1


    Few would defend a small view of Alchemy as 'Mother of Chemistry',
    and confuse its true goal with those external metal arts. Alchemy
    is an erotic science, involved in buried aspects of reality,
    aimed at purifying and transforming all being and matter.
    Not to suggest that material operations are ever abandoned.
    The adept holds to both the mystical and physical work.

    They can picture love affairs of chemicals and stars, a romance of stones,
    or the fertility of fire. Stange, fertile correspondences the alchemists
    sensed in unlikely orders of being. Between men and planets, plants and
    gestures, words and weather.

    (Jim Morrison, The Lords: Notes on Vision; 1969)

  76. If you had been born... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... in the time of Newton it would be highly likely you would have been religious too. People keep forgetting people are children of the times and ages in which they are born. A coherent theory of evolution wasn't formulated until the 18th century and even then it's competitors were myths so it's not like it takes a genius to disbelieve in creationism when you have an inkling of knowledge regarding cosmology or the massive geological timescales of death and disease in the animal kingdom over billions of years.