Slashdot Mirror
City of Vienna Chooses Linux
Bill Kendrick writes "Back in January, ZDNet reported that the city of Vienna, Austria was looking to move at least a portion of its desktops to Linux. Well, it looks like it happened (in German; use the fish). Their official distro is based on Debian with KDE, and is called WEINUX." Update: 07/06 12:49 GMT by T : Several readers wrote to correct the spelling here: the correct name of the distro is "WIENUX."
Buncha Wieners.
Hands in my pocket
The Linux katamari picked up another city. A few more and we'll be able to level up!
It is called "WIENUX", not "WEINUX", as the city of Vienna is called "Wien" in German, not "Wein" (which means wine in German, and has nothing to do with Vienna).
A monkey is doing the real work for me.
That's a very ambitious target if they are only offering it, not saying "you will use this".
__
Funny Adult Videos and Pictures
Because Vienna is "Wien" in German, that's "Wienux".
The distro is called "WIENUX". The city of "Vienna" is called "Wien" in German, so it is an intended pun.
:-) )
"Wein" would be "wine" in English (we do have very good wine in Wien, though
We get the report when a decent sized city and/or organization switches to Linux? I would rather read some reports of how the transition to Linux was, what software they use, initial user reactions to the OS. You know basic shit like that.
I like the idea and the approach, that the city turn s to linux on the desktop AND using a own distro for this.
After all, with this everything is implemented THEY need, nothing more and nothing less...they take advantage of the biggest advantage of OSS:
Choice!
Instead of using a company or existing product per se (I know, its based in Debian), they changed it to their needs and they offer a voluntary change for the employees (at least at the beginning).
I wish them luck and hope they will make progress fast.
Seriously, couldn't they have chosen a better name, perhaps WurstSmoking? Blame the fish.
Not only that, Switzerland is the neutral country that stands outside of the UN and everything, not Austria.
Oh, Vienna!
My advice to people is, if you want something easy and are willing to spend $100, get SuSE in the box. There are a ton of applications to help you configure your system. You can use SuSE to run a server, and not worry about downtime (unlike Mandrake which will crash, I have seen it happen at a linux fest, where 12 of us stood in disbelief looking at the new blue screen of death). I knew another guy who had a webserver and ssh set up on SuSE and it ran for over 200 days without a glitch (he took it down when he upgraded his system).
For someone not wanting to start a distro war you do an amazingly good job of starting one using little more than anecdotal evidence. My Mandrake box which I use for all my computer work has been running for almost 420 days now without a reboot. Just goes to show how much a single experience is worth.
And Switzerland is in the UN since 2002.
Ubuntu, folks. Ubuntu. It defaults to Gnome (and you can always switch to KDE), works out of the box, has a huge variety of software available (as it is 95% Debian). It's just really up to date and stable, works great on x86 (and x86-64) and PPC in my experience, plus there's a liveCD version. Ubuntu is probably the one distro I don't have any serious complaints about; Fedora Core is just a pile of shit compared to Ubuntu, as there is no easy way to update from, for example, FC3 to FC4. With Ubuntu you just use apt-get. For older hardware, I'd say Debian and perhaps IceWM or fluxbox.
Take off every sig. For great justice.
ya thinkin a venice there sir?
The first rule of USENET is you do not talk about USENET.
I'm not sure if your post is a troll or not, especially given the first paragraph... But your opinions of Red Hat are very descriptive of where Red Hat was five years ago. Since then, they've switched to using apt-get and yum as the default/recomended way of installing packages. That's right, you can use your own favourite tool apt-get to install rpm packages under Red Hat, automatically resolving dependencies for you. Since Fedora Core 4, there is also a community driven repository called Fedora Extras that is enabled in the configuration _by default_, which brings FC a big step closer to having the huge wealth of packages available to people using the debian universe.
;-)
For example, to install fish, a shell that I've written, under FC4, all you need to do is type yum install fish as root.
As to the 'golden rule' of yours, I've not had to manually configure my NIC, my soundcard or my videcard once for the last three years while installing Red Hat distributions on at least half a dozen different computers, including Laptops. I don't know, but it might be a problem in Debian!
Try out fish, the friendly interactive shell.
How long before we see a big, nasty, 7-CD distro, with lots of packages, called "Penux"? /ducks, posting anon
ahem...
Large corporations usually dont lose nights of sleep when the `pro` segment of their customers, the ones who know well enough to ask for better, decide to switch to solutions that require more effort and/or knowledge.
Large corporations sell to people who know no better, and cant be bothered too. Smaller, more boutiqued, and/or specialized firms or user groups tend to cater to the everyday Joe Slob who just wants the simple music downloads and fastest pr0n access box for cheap, especially when if anything goes wrong they have other people to call up and yell at.
Seriously, nobody ever researched all the possible pros and cons of different architectures, and decided `hey, you know what? Im gonna design my mission-critical, or high-performance application on the one operating system rated to have the most extensive vulnerabilities, which cause billions of dollars of loss a year, cause well im feeling kinda lucky today.`
Know some admins I wouldnt piss on if their servers were on fire who use linux... badly, but most of the good admins i know who use windows do so because they have no choice. Seriously, EVERY pro app in engineering, accounting, and most of the other things people use in real life has an up-to-date version on windows, not so much for linux or even apple, and MSs beautiful `bundling? what bundling, its innovation` crap means any of those apps that needs a network framework needs a complete active directory or even windows PDC to work properly. Its hard to keep kids off crack when the schools serve it with lunch.
My greater fear is that over the last few years, linux has been getting better and better at being completely invisible. You can set up a linux openldap and samba system well enough that no one can tell the difference. Half the transparent gateways nowadays run some brand of linux, along with those new insta-nas boxes. Its not a bad thing for linux, but its kinda bad for linux on the desktop, because it makes the desktop part of linux the least neccessary. Windows demands a MS framework to run, linux is so nice you could slave it to a crazy, naked popcorn machine and it would work happily without a squeak.
Its not that linux has a disadvantage, MS just plays their (unfair, and greedy)advantage a lot harder on everybody else, and in the OS wars homecourt advantage is everything, ask OS/2. Bundling does hurt, just not the way youd think.
The first rule of USENET is you do not talk about USENET.
hmm. how many hours have you been using it?
The "basic user" who is only using it for email/internet/office is going to be very afraid to switch, unwilling, upset and just generally not happy about the change. I've seen it happen in my workplace, where a large number of the workers are just barely competant in Windows to do what they want. Try to force a new operating system on them, and you'll have mass revolt.
It's better to offer it as an option, and slowly push it. It also gives them a chance to work out the kinks on the users who don't mind as much (since they were willing to be earlier-adopters).
Eventually, the afraid huddling masses will say, "Hey, how did you do that? That's pretty cool, I can't do that on my Windows system" and they'll train each other on it. But that will take time.
So... that's the extremely drawn out answer of 'why' they won't immediately make it the standard.
I haven't tried Ubuntu myself, but I'm hearing nothing but good things about it.
However, you're wrong about there not being any easy ways to upgrade Fedora Core distros. I haven't reinstalled any of my personal machines for ages. My fileserver was originally installed with RedHat 7.1, and has been smoothly upgraded from that to the FC4 it's running now. And for the last few years, it hasn't even had a graphics card in it, so I've been doing the upgrades remotely, using apt for rpm. Not a single problem with it, so far.
My main box, due to it running a bunch more self-made rpms and tweaks, has turned up some minor strangeness with distro upgrades via apt, but nothing that was any actual trouble to resolve.
The officially supported upgrade path for Fedora/Redhat distros (Pop CD/DVD in, reboot, and choose upgrade) is "easy" too. It's just inconvenient compared to apt-get or yum "online" upgrades, since you lose the use of your computer during the upgrade, wheras with apt or yum, you can keep working as the upgrade process runs. Redhat really do need to get with the program and make apt/yum full distro upgrades officially supported, like they are in debian-based distros. Preferably, I'd like to see the Smart Package Manager replace apt/yum, once it's out of beta, because from trying it, it seriously kicks the butt of both apt and yum.
We'll be able to roll the moon with 5 minutes to spare!
-1 Offtopic
I'm Austrian, and want to clarify some stuff I keep hearing about Austria by tourists:
* no, we are not the country with the kangaroos
* no, we don't have a Nazi government (I keep hearing that from Americans all the time)
* our Wiener Schnitzel is really tasty, yeah
* our kids don't go to school by skiing (well, most of them don't)
* we don't eat much sauerkraut. That's what Germans do.
* never confuse us with Germans. We really don't like that. Its like confusing americans with canadians. They eat us alive if we do this.
* We don't wear Lederhosen all the time.
This sig does not contain any SCO code.
Redundant or offtopic, don't care:
;)
Lets just say Gnome is better than KDE regardless of distro.
And you get Informative when starting an post with that line.
Go Gnome-ers, just please, keep it [i.e. Gnome] out of my face.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
Linux won't be worried untill GNU/Linux reaches a point where it's userfriendly AND compatible enough that a big OEM decide to have it as an option or to include it in their computers for free. Imagine DELL suddenly shipping with KDE or something. If only a few percent of the customers buy it linux will double it's market share in a few months! Just think of the word of mouth marketing when someone tells a friend, "I bought this computer at Dell and saved $200 when choosing something called Linux/Openoffice instead of Windows/MSOffice! IT WILL BE A REVOLUTION! GLOOOOORIOUS!! ;)
Kind of like some of the countless U.S. reality shows where people and houses are made over (e.g. - The Swan, The Biggest Loser, Extreme Home Makeover). Rather than short term focus I'd love to see the shows check in a year later to see how things look. That's more indicative of true success and failure.
Gotcha there, canal-boy.
America!!
America!!
America!!
Don't trust anyone under thirty.
---
Correspondence of the Office of the Mayor (July 5th, 2005)
WIENUX-Day: Viennese Solution for Open Source
Open Source in Vienna (Wien) - Presentation of WIENUX
Vienna (RK). Today Stadtrat (city councillor) member Rudi Schicker presented the current status of OS-usage in Vienna during a media conference in the main public library of Vienna. Together with Gemeinderat (councillor) A. Schieder and Nationalratsabgeordnetem (member of national parliament) Josef Broukal, WIENUX was presented, the version of Linux prepared for use in the city of Vienna. During a WIENUX information day, employees of the city of Vienna could get information about WIENUX and OpenOffice.org and try out Linux and OpenOffice.org on the spot. As Schicker emphasizes: "it's not about making decisions so to say from above, but giving the employees individual freedoms where possible, for a creative administration, ".
Vienna has already used OSS products for several years in the server area. Because of the positive experiences made, the development of OSS standard componentes for desktops has been observed for some time, and their use been investigated in study. The MA 14-ADV (IT department???) administrates 18,000 PCs, 8,200 printers and 560 servers. Most desktops run under Windows 2000, whose support by Microsoft will last until 2010, but there is not that much time. "Every five to seven years, a great pressure to migrate evolves, even if you skip over one to two versions" points out department head Dipl.- Ing. (engineer) SR Erwin Gillich. Therefore a migration of the systems would be due three years earlier, at the latest 2008, in contrast to Munich [another Linux deployment], where the time pressure was much greater because of obsolete hard- and software.
Open Source study
During a study, a comprehensive inventory of the sw used on every PC was made and used as a basis for finding the migration potential. The results of the study "OSS in the Magistrat Wien" show, that about 7,500 PCs could use the licensing-cost-free OpenOffice.org instead of MS Office. 4,800 of these PCs could even be switched to an OSS operating system.
In October 2004, a working group was started, which worked on the use of OS sw on the desktops of the Magistrat. The requirement was to develop an open source platform which can communicate with the existing MS infrastructure. The results are the custom-tailored operating system WIENUX and the use of OpenOffice.org. Both are offered by the MA 14-ADV in the course of a "gentle product introduction" beginning in June 2005.
Voluntary switchover
The most important consideration is voluntariness: Those who want to can choose the open source way; who is attached to the old products, may stay there. The licensing-cost-free operating system WIENUX was developed based on Debian with the KDE (Kool Desktop Enviroment) desktop. Firefox is used as the web browser, emails can be accessed using MS Outlook WebAccess, there is also an SAP-access and various additional tools. WIENUX is under the so-called GNU/GPL (GNU General Public Licence).
OpenOffice.org
OpenOffice.org, which is also free of licensing cost, is the counterpart to MS-Office, which the Magistrat currently uses. It can be installed in a cross-platform fashion on both WIENUX- and MS-Windows-PCs, an can be used in parallel to MS-Office under Windows2000. OOo comprises the programs Writer (for writing documents), Calc (for making tables), Impress (for presentations), Draw (drawing program), Base (DB module) and Math (scientific formula editor).
Making experiences
In order t
I'm not so sure about that... Even if, for example, DELL started offering Linux as an alternative, most people would probably stick with what they know, MS Windows. Sure, the market share of Linux would increase, but I don't think it would be widely used by your average consumer. For that to happen, one of the big OEMs would probably have to really push Linux, make sure it becomes an important factor in their marketing... (just imagine DELL offering Linux PCs, with Windows XP available as an alternative for an additional $200... this would probably work better than the other way around).
Ubuntu, folks. Ubuntu. It defaults to Gnome (and you can always switch to KDE)
Kubuntu, folks. Kubuntu. It defaults to KDE.
Follow me
It's called WIENUX, like the German name for the city - WIEN. [Hint: German W's are pronounced as English V's] Now they have to chose between Wienux and Wiendows :)
Pretty nice, Austria rocks for having a strong Open-Source Community, it seems.
I often see Americans changing these in german words. I think it is because of the pronounciation. Wien for example only sounds like Wien, if Americans write it Wein. You can see this in any word containing these 2 letters. I've seen Weiners instead of Wieners, etc... Well, at least you know that Bier is Beer and not Beir... :-)
Even if, for example, DELL started offering Linux as an alternative, most people would probably stick with what they know, MS Windows. Sure, the market share of Linux would increase, but I don't think it would be widely used by your average consumer.
Well, that little market share increase would be in the newbie/inexperienced/regular joe sector.
If like one inexperienced guy could get a linux alternative from a "trusted" source like Dell and then being able to tell his friends it suddenly is main-stream. It's a whole lot diffrent then a newbie which has gotten linux pushed on him by his geek friend (read: me).That user will think he's using a hard to use OS, while if Dell sold it to him, he'll think of it as an alternative. AND he'd probably have support.
I don't think many slashdotters really realise the significance of Wien, and so the importance of this move. I don't blame them, Wien is part of the German speaking world, and so the local importance of the city and its habits is really only appreciated by German speakers like myself and not the general readership. Let me just say - this is very significant indeed.
Historically, Wien has always been to the german speaking world what Carthage was to the Greeks - the centre of learning and the export of culture and ideas. Although its importance waned somewhat in the early 20th century, the Cold War and events since has cemented its position as the premier exporter of German business innovation.
So, instead of reading Wien in the summary above, in a few years you can read it as "Germany and Austria". My bet is, such is the influence of Wien, that a successful Linuks experiment will "trickle down" into emulation by a whole host of cities throughout the german speaking world. Linus deserves a pat on the back for his bargaining prowess.
Meine Schwester ist sehr, sehr reizvoll - Nietzsche
You get such a high class of debate on Slashdot!
Something is happening here but you don't know what it is, do you, Mr Jones.
The snowball down the mountain has been used to explain how the popularity of a product increases very quickly after a particular percentage of users.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
I'm a Wiener and proud of it, even more so because of WIENUX
What MS is thinking... I'd like to think they're thinking of that Ringo Starr hit:
"She said she loved me but I knew she was lyin', ah hah hah
Felt like an Arab who was dancin' through Zion, ah hah hah
Don't call the doctor if you just feel like cryin', ah hah hah
It's all da-da-da-down to 'Goodnight, Vienna'..."
As a Debian/Xandros user, I can confirm that I can't even remember how we used to do this any more ;-)
J.
You're only jealous cos the little penguins are talking to me.
"Choosy Italians Choose Linux! "
Dubya, is that really you on the other end?
Vienna is in Austria. You know, sorta like
Germany, but with less touristy places...
Okay, okay. Where Arnold the Governator is
from. Venice is in Italy -- the western end
of the Silk Road. Okay, okay. The city that
is sinking into its own sewage system.
Jeez, Dubya, open a geography book once in
a while, okay? Geography -- that's the study
of places and how its history and culture is
different (like Connecticut and Texas). Okay,
okay. Book -- Those kinda square things with
writing on the inside. A whole bunch of them
are used like a wall covering where you live.
(And our lesson is done for the day. Now
go outside and play some golf on the moors.
Dress warmly, Dubya, 'cause it gets cold and
damp in that place your at now (Scotland).)
Thank you for clearing that up. That means that the entire post by eobanb consists of things that where sound advice about five years ago, but do not correctly represent the status of todays distros. (I don't knoe about how stable Mandriva is, but the distro known as Mandrake does not exist anymore, so opinions on it are deprecated)
Try out fish, the friendly interactive shell.
Steve Irwin is yours???
+++
Husi is where's it at
Well I'm not interested until someone releases a version that defaults to XFCE 'cause Xubuntu sounds so much besterest than the others...
Sky subscribers are morons. They pay to be advertised at !
City of Vienna takes a step in computer evolution. How are they even to going to work?
Linux sucks. It is an underground OS that is completely unstandardized. Linux geeks, get the fuck over yourselves.
There's no conflict at all here - users DO have choice, and all the GP said is, he thinks they should choose Linux and not choose Microsoft, based on certain valid technical and economic considerations. What's the problem exactly? Are you trying to imply that anyone who expresses an opinion on which they honestly think would be the best choice must inherently be making a purely ideological decision? That a truly unbiased person would always only express totally neutral opinions? Are you trying to subtly manipulate us into actually thinking that we should avoid expressing any non-neutral opions on the basis that they inherently indicate an ideological bias? Yes, that's exactly what you're doing, in which case you're just a sophisticated troll, because your 'reasoning' is totally specious.
I think it's more accurate to say the battlecry has gone from "users should have choice" to "users should use the best tool for the job, which I think is (X)". I really don't see the problem with that, technical people are asked to make such decisions every day in companies all over the world, and the whole idea is not to be "neutral" and "unbiased" - the whole idea is to determine what the 'best tool for the job' is, and that's all we're doing here..
New Zealand Prime Minister Muldoon on the migration of New Zealanders to Australia in 1978 : "Trans-Tasman migration is great. It raises the IQ on both sides of the Tasman."
Parisux?
No no, that's another story. A city in Italy is looking to move away from proprietary vendors as well. Their official browser is based on Mozilla, and is called FIRENZEFOX.
"The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand", or so I have read.
So does this mean the Linux conversion has gone well in Munich?
I work in the Toronto District School Board. Due to corrupt, incompetent bureaucrats and bad administrative decisions, millions are spent on M$ junk, despite a few perfectly functioning linux labs by competent computer teachers. Administrators ignore or even actively attempt to shutdown linux labs, due to M$ threats/kickbacks, etc. That is why there is so little linux in Toronto schools for example. If you are a Canadian taxpayer, you should be demanding transparency and accountability about how computer dollars, especially M$ licensing costs are spent, in schools. It's really quite appalling how M$ and corrupt, incompetent administrators are wasting tax dollars, etc. "Go ahead, tax me, I'm Canadian...:-))"
Younux, Wienux, We all nux for Linux
Fedora Core is just a pile of shit compared to Ubuntu, as there is no easy way to update from, for example, FC3 to FC4.
That's funny, I just updated to FC4 from FC1 without a hitch. It runs great.
I think you don't know what you're talking about.
I had no problems with Mandrake when I ran it. I run Xandros now, and lovin' it.
There's no place like ~/
You've forgotten one important thing: Microsoft doesn't play fair.
If Dell were to offer linux as a desktop option, MS would very likely raise their licensing fees to (even more) exorbatant prices. Or, if they think they can get away with it, threaten to stop selling them any licenses.
I am a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
We'd have a lot of stories....
In undeveloped countries, the consumer controls the market. In capitalist America, the market controls you.
Organizations should have a choice. Choosing a mixed setup is rarely wise because of the support cost. Going for a pure Microsoft, Apple or Linux solution wlll almost always be preferable.
Of course some flexibility is a good idea. If the user has special needs, knows what he is doing, and understand that he will not get support from the IT center, he can choose another platform than the organizational standard.
I appreciate your information. Any explanation why Florence is "Firenze" and Venice is "Venezia" in Italy?
Principal Skinner: Whoever did this is in very deep trouble.
Martin: And a sloppy speller, too. The preferred spelling of `weiner' is W-I-E-N-E-R, although E-I is an acceptable ethnic variant.
Principal Skinner: Good point.
Ubuntu recommendation seconded.
It. Just. Works.
We call them "Frankfurter" over here. We are in general proud of the fact that they were invented over here in 1805. (Hey, that's 200 years! Let's party!) But we are not so happy about everybody calling them "Wiener".
Living at the birthplace of a widespread and popular food - good
Having your cultural background identified with sausage - not so good
Vienna waits for you...
* yes, we are the country with the tazmanian devils
Actually, Tasmanian Devils live in Tasmania, an island province of Australia just to the south of the main landmass. They shouldn't be in New Zealand at all.
*I'm not really a New Zealander
It shows.:)
Is this a sigs-optional kind of place? 'Cause I am totally down with that if you know what I mean.
Historically, Wien has always been to the german speaking world what Carthage was to the Greeks - the centre of learning and the export of culture and ideas.
...a successful Linuks experiment will "trickle down"...
Actually, Carthage was a Phoenician city perpetually at war with the Greek colony of Syracuse. It was not renowned for learning.
Linus deserves a pat on the back for his bargaining prowess.
Linus is, quite obviously, not involved with this. He's a programmer and an architect, not a marketer.
There is an 'x' in the German alphabet, so this is an intentional misspelling.
Is this a sigs-optional kind of place? 'Cause I am totally down with that if you know what I mean.
So does the Viennese governement. They'got Windows licenced until 2008. That's why they don't have to make a complete switch to Linux at once but can gather experience in the mean time.
In Munich the licences ran out much earlier, which is why they switched ahead of us. Expect to see the same procedure in many other bureaucracuies soon. Licence runs out -> switch to Linux
The cliche of "not pissing on someone if they were on fire" suggests, colorfully, one's disdain for someone else, to the extreme of not wanting to help them out even insultingly, in the worst emergency.
When you use it to apply to "admins" not "pissing on a linux server" if it were on fire, you lose the effect of the expression.
I imagine nobody would pee on a server in flames. First off, it wouldn't really help, but even more so, it would likely fry your wiener (to bring this back on subject).
And as long as I'm playing grammar nazi (no offense Austria!) here's some reminders:
- a lot is NEVER alot
- if you can't remember which to use, "its" is generally safer than "it's" because if you use no apostrophe when you should have, you just look lazy, but if you error on using it when you shouldn't have, you look stupid.
or are you just happy to see me?
I was driving by a state police barracks one night with net stumbler running on my lap top (I have an external antenna too) And found a wide open 802.11b access point. The police don't even lock things up, what makes you think that the average home user is going to secure his/her wireless access point....
I have to second the earlier poster's comment about suse vs mandrake. I hate to say anything bad about a linux distro, but mandrake has not been stable any of the times I've tried it.
My impression of mandrake is "cute but flaky", while suse is more along the lines of "cute and solid".
I've been using linux *heavily* since 1993 BTW.
a: i was lazy and not trying to give a clear and cogent argument as much as paint a colorful picture
/. ignores them, sorry. should be ok after a reboot now.
2: my kde keyboard settings went weird with intl keymaps, so parenthesis and apostrophes dont code properly, and
The first rule of USENET is you do not talk about USENET.
Well I'm sure we all know that personal experiences can differ greatly, and although I'm sure Mandrake wasn't stable for you. I have used Mandrake (9) in the past as a squid and http server with uptimes of over 200 days. If thats not what you would call stable I dont know what is.
wasn't there a case about this? telling ms they weren't allowed to make clauses that gave financial gains to companies that would not ship with other OS's?
Nah, Eubuntu sounds better. Enlightenment as the default window manager.
Follow me
In short, it's not as simple as just dropping a new kernel or new OS under KDE.
Most MS-Windows users I've talked with, those who don't actually sell MS software or develop for it, can't stand the changes between versions. They put up with it because Bill's catamites in their so-called IT department says for them to and their bosses back up the so-called IT department. If their IT departments and bosses threw as much weight behind putting out KDE on all the desktops they'd get used to that, too. But in the future, the IT department could then drop a new kernel or even a new OS behind KDE without disturbing the users. It's a rare bird that uses more than e-mail, web, and productivity tools.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.