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Genetic Research In The Heart of Amish Country
FrenchyinOntario writes "Insular, inbred communities like the Ashkenazi Jews and Indian tribes can be a bonanza of genetic information for researchers, and the Amish & Mennonite communities in the United States are proving to be fertile ground as well for scientists who want to better understand the nature of genetic diseases and how rare illnesses occur more frequently in such closed-off communities. The Amish, famous for their renunciation of a lot of technology, are embracing a lab that has been built in the centre of their community because their faith teaches them to "help their fellow man", recognizing that helping scientists better understand the genetic causes of diabetes, mental retardation, and some of the rarer diseases in their families, helps themselves as well as others. For a better understanding of the Amish and their approach to technology, Wired magazine ran an excellent story a few years back better illustrating why they are not just mindless kneejerk technophobes."
Alright, I really want to know this:
Is it AY-MISH, or AH-MISH.
It's good to see that religion/culture values helping others more than abstaining (word useage?) from society.
Viable Slashdot alternatives: https://pipedot.org/ and http://soylentnews.org/
AH-MISH
So when can we slashdot the lab's server?
ITS A WIRED CONSPIRACY!
For a better understanding of the Amish and their approach to technology, Wired magazine ran an excellent story a few years back better illustrating why they are not just mindless kneejerk technophobes."
I hope Wired ran the story past their counsel at North Shore Agency first.
Of course they are not mindless technophobes. For one thing every member of the sect is given a period in late adolecense where they are to go forth and experience the rest of society before they join the church. This insures that they have made a choice that is at least somewhat informed. They are an interesting group of very deeply religious folk who have very good reasons for believing as they do. Hell one of my favorite vacations was one where I didn't touch an electronic device for an entire week, it was SO much more relaxing than any other vacation I have ever taken that I have to sometimes wonder if I wouldn't be more happy if I were to give it all up and live life in the simpler fashion of the amish.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
I think this has been done enough. I live in India and don't know of any "in bred Indian tribes". The Indian tribes that I know of are so intermingled with the population that they are not in bred at all. I think what the author wants to talk about is "Native Americans". They are not Indians, and they only reason they were called so is because poor Columbus thought he had reached India when he reached North America. So why do some people keep calling them Indians? Celebrating Columbus' mistake?
Essentia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.
Though probably known to few, may I suggest the population of South Towanda PA for such a study. Some may have heard of it, very special population, get to study genetics and a special language all in one shot.
Am I the only one that saw the headline and got a picture in my head of a mad scientist experimenting on the Amish? They would be the perfect target. Come to my lab, we're going to uh, cure cancer and stuff. Yup. Great fun that curing cancer is. Yep...
If you spent a single year living as Amish people do, then you'd want to come back here, too. They send them out with little education and little support and no friends in the outside world. Of course they are going to come back after a year. They may think they are giving people the choice, but in the end, it's adding to the indoctrination because they come back thinking that they know what it's like outside their little community.
I'm not criticizing the Amish here. I have no doubt that they mean well by doing this, but it is not a fair way to do the comparison.
One of the women who works there lives a couple doors down from me in CT. A bunch of years ago some of the Amish came over to her house to do build an addition, and they basically did it barn-raising style. Cool stuff. This has definitely been going on for 10+ years though.
Over in Australia we have another group of people that are highly inbred, they live on the island state of Tasmania.
There is even rumoured to exist the infamous "two-headed" Tasmanian which were thought to have been exterminated by the early settlers though the odd unconfirmed sighting is reported now and then.
The Amish are an extremely important cultural group, IMHO. I'd be lost without my computer, but aside from that I consider them a positive example to the rest of us (at least in some respects) where sustainable living is concerned. I've believed for a while now that despite having had some people laugh at them, it may well be that the Amish themselves will have the last laugh once peak oil hits. Their lifestyle also has numerous sociological benefits as well. It's fairly self-evident that the level of communal interaction is higher among less technologically oriented societies, as well as overall levels of apathy being a good deal lower. People from such communities tend to care a great deal more about their fellow man, and on a day to day basis, as well...not just when disaster hits. The rest of human society could learn a lot from them.
First of all, the root Amish are not part of the United States; they are seperate, having capacity in positive-law jural societies in the original estate; Patroons. When I speak of the original estate, I mean pre-Revolutionary War era. The United States existed before the "Revolutionary War", and not everyone was member after that war concluded. A prominent handful of people returned to their landing at their isolated countrymen. This is not any matter of criticism to the the People of the United States, but to assert that there are conditions on this continent that have existed long before. I am researching various forms of citizenship that predate that of the united States of America and am finding them applicable today in light of the Treaty of Paris. There are Americans, some of them are citizens of the United States, and then there are many Citizens of a local city. I've come across some people that retained their allegiance to the sovereignty of the Queen throughout all this time. The Amish are not a fringe group, but just choosing their participation with loving precision; not to participate in pursuits that give no more security than a peace-loving living will, or to impugn the efforts of others to force their will of relentless searches and seizures for an enemy of the Congress that implies it is everywhere outside of Washington city, District of Columbia.
without prejudice
illustrating why they are not just mindless kneejerk technophobes."
As opposed to mindless kneejerk slashdot technophiles?
Anyway time to get out Weird Al's Amish Paradise.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
we've been spending most our lives living in an Amish Paradise,
I kissed my cousin once or twice, living in an Amish Paradise,
It's hard work and sacrifice, living in an Amish Paradise,
The lab scientists are really nice, living in an Amish Paradise.
...as they have figured out that a few dirty mags keeps their elders out of prison.
Mmm-hmm!
So yeah, it's not a good time to buy a new car, but the gears of industry aren't exactly about to come to a screeching halt.
Of course, depending on how rough the transition is, the Amish very well could have a lot to teach us.
Well said, neighbor. There is only one element of your post that I hope to emphasize others against; and that is to look at neighbors as "cultures" as though genetic entropy subject to a foreign will. All citizens of the United States could learn to The Amish are verry much self-sufficient in every regard, if you consider sacrifice to be the limiting factor of your livelihood. When I mean sacrifice, I think of when the only recourse to someone stealing your horse is to just move on. Yet, even though the Amish exist outside the jurisdiction of the United States, they interact peacefully to help citizens. It was last year in Pennsylvania, in the fifth Month in the Year of Our Lord two-thousand and four, that an hundred or more Amish peacfully assembled at the supreme Court building at Pennsylvania to protest. The story is lady was hired to perform in assisting an Amish woman move a child from the womb, and resulted in the child dying from natural complications inherint in the woman that had been so blessed with such fruit. The Amish woman and man, respectively, forgave the hired-servant and were thankful despite the outcome. In returning to a post in person as a citizen of the United States, the woman began to endure a voracious prosecution for mal-practice. Thereafter, hundreds of the Amish people were arriving and encircled that Court completly in joined hands to protest the prosecution of their friend. We can all learn this from the Amish: sacrifice, forgiveness, love thy neighbor to the end. The fewer applications of the United States processes the better; yet, I don't see people rescinding their SIGN and signatures to their certifications and birth certificates/corporate soles just yet, because it seems as though people have less faith in someone without such certifications despite being qualified if an honest attempt is made in any servitude. Confounded by Google, an article pointing to the incident is dated "June 02, 2004, an old header in Google is shown as "... 2004 Last Sunday, on the 25th of July, Malteser Emergency ... Clients, even Amish, supporting midwife charged in baby's death Jun 02, 2004 -based Citizens ..." mis-alligned to a cache that is offset by an entire year.
I saved a newspaper clipping from southern California, THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER, and I'll post a deranged form (averting copyright) as soon as it is found in the filing cabinet.
without prejudice
...seriously, tell us how you really feel.
Join Tor today!
So let me get this straight.
...But it's okay to give them hits?
Wired is an evil, evil group who strongarms their customers...
Wow, the editors must have special proxies that block all main and sub-section slashdot content, but allow posting.
That'd explain the dupes too...hmm..
The main thing to remember about true Amish is that they're an orthodox branch of the Anabaptist church.
:) But if they're standing side by side on a sidewalk you'd never be able to tell who is who.
The Mennonites are a non-orthodox denomination; however, to see them on the street together you'd have no idea which is the Amish and which is the Mennonite. Mennonites still hold onto the traditions except that they accept "modern" lifestyles - they own cars, TVs, computers, and so forth, but still honor the traditional dress and religious beliefs. My wife works with a Mennonite at a local grocer, and he's always in his straw hat and overalls whenever he works. It was actually a shock to see him in a "regular" suit and tie at the company Christmas party last year.
I live about 45 minutes from Strasburg and go through that area often. There are Mennonite churches all over the place, even as far out as Carlisle and as far north as Selinsgrove (not that those names mean anything to people who are not from the area).
Basically, if they own a buggy, they're Amish. If they own a car, they're Mennonite.
The Overrated mod is for reversing inappropriate, positive mods, not for voicing disagreement with a post.
I've lived in Amish country now for some 17 years. When I was younger, I wondered about their community and what the deal was with their shunning of technology. After talking to a lot of my co-workers about it (many of whom were Old Order), the local bishop showed up on a lunch hour to help 'get me straight'.
According to the bishop, the primary reason for avoiding technology had to do with 'idle hands'. Anything that takes them away from the community or their families is considered 'not good' and there really didn't have to be a specific reason for a bishop to disallow something.
BUT... As much as the Amish outwardly show compliance, the truth is that many of them push the boundries with things like cell phones, solar cell recharging units (some roof-sized panels used to recharge batteries for electicity at night), and even computers. Clearly the letter of the law and the spirit of it are two different things.
In later years I worked for a small computer store in Ephrata. We catered to the Amish and Mennonite communities as they are often VERY wealthy and shrewd business people (uneducated does not mean stupid), and if the technology is considered necessary, they will not hesitate using it. In most instances, we would end up selling a computer to a farmer who used it for their milking machines or keeping track of finances, or in one instance, an egg counting machine that ran Windows NT!
One fine day however, we had a rather nervous looking young man come by on his bike and purchased (in cash) a brand new, top of the line, Acer laptop. Upon leaving he put the laptop in the cardboard box on the back of his bike, covered it up, and rode off.
A few days later a buggy pulls up and its this poor fellow and his bishop. The bishop appologized for his parishner's mistake and asked politely if he could get a refund. All this, and the purchaser never looked up once. Of course we gave him one - our relations with the local community demanded that, but I sure felt sorry for that kid.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
Seastead this.
So these societies can survive indefinitely, or will these diseases eventually snowball on them?
Also (and i'm really not being cynical here), in dealing with such a small and admittedly inbreed population, isn't natural selection particularly important, in the long run? Will helping these people cope with genetic disorders really be good for their future generations?
For those not in the know, Blackpool is in England, as is (another) Lancaster.
The Overrated mod is for reversing inappropriate, positive mods, not for voicing disagreement with a post.
Ahh, thanks to that song, particularly the line "Jebediah feeds the chickens", my sister and brother (who's name is Jedidiah), found themselves having to explain to my sister's hockey teammates that no, we are not Amish. I guess the fact that we drove a car and that my sister was playing on a guy's hockey team wasn't enough proof for them.
Eagles may soar, but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines...
if people are allowed to leave, are people allowed to join?
a search on google gave me this:
http://www.800padutch.com/atafaq.shtml#join
"Can an outsider join the Amish church/community?"
"A local Amishman recently remarked, "You do not need to move here to adopt a lifestyle of simplicity and discipleship. You can begin wherever you are." Yes, it is possible for outsiders, through conversion and convincement, to join the Amish community, but we must quickly add that it seldom happens. First, the Amish do not evangelize and seek to add outsiders to their church. Second, outsiders would need to live among the Amish and demonstrate a genuine conversion experience and faith that results in a changed lifestyle. Third, it is extremely difficult for anyone who has not been raised without electricity, automobiles, and other modern conveniences to adjust to the austere lifestyle of the Amish. And to truly be a part of the Amish community one would need to learn the Pennsylvania Dutch dialect."
HD Trailers
People have been doing research on the Amish for a very long time, their diseases are well characterized. The Amish play a major role in the methamphetamine trade of North America, having had shootouts with Mexican Federales and FBI agents before.
When I was growing up, one of my relatives was a physician in eastern Ohio, and had some amish patients. He was pediatrician and a strong christian, which was something the amish greatly appreciated. As a result, many members of their community brought their children to see him.
He mentioned in passing to one of them that he was thinking of remodeling his kitchen. The amish man immediately stated "we could do that for you."
I was there when they came to redo the place... it was one of the most amazing things I've ever seen. Two truckloads of people, men and women, and they worked from sunup to sundown, breaking only briefly for lunch. The workmanship was incredible... everything fit perfectly. They also put in all kinds of clever little gadgets; sliding racks for table leaves, concealed hangers for towels, pivoting shelves and rack for dishes and pots... I've been in million-dollar homes that didn't have a kitchen as nice.
Whatever criticism are leveled at the amish, there's definitely nothing wrong their work ethic.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
While some Mennonites drive cars, not all of them do, and not all of them are plain. When my aunt and uncle lived in Cape Coral, Florida, they went to a Mennonite church that you would have no idea was a Mennonite unless they told you it was. They all dressed like everybody else, the music was contemporary, it basically looked like the modern American megachurch. And, even with the plain Mennonites who shun cars and electricity, you can tell them apart from the Amish if you know what to look for, they drive different kinds of buggies, the women wear different prayer caps, and there are several other distinctions.
And, to make things more complicated, you also have to factor in the various Brethren groups, which may be more or less plain (my grandmother grew up plain brethren, I think it was after she married my grandfather that she became lutheran, which is what my dad grew up). Then there was the United Brethren, which was the first American grown denomination and was started by a Mennonite preacher in my great-great-great-great-great uncle's barn in the 1767, and which much of my mom's side of the family belonged to(at least those who didn't marry Mennonites). The best I can gather, at some point in the late 1800s they split, some of them joined up with the Evangelical Brethren to become the Evangelical United Brethren, which later merged with the Methodists to create the United Methodists. And so, in a nutshell, much of American religious history can in some way tie itself back in history to the Amish by way of the Mennonites (which are of course an offshoot of the Amish).
Eagles may soar, but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines...
... it doesn't sound like they'll be reading this, does it?
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
The Amish, famous for their renunciation of a lot of technology, are embracing a lab that has been built in the centre of their community because their faith teaches them to "help their fellow man", recognizing that helping scientists better understand the genetic causes of diabetes, mental retardation, and some of the rarer diseases in their families, helps themselves as well as others.
From the article it says, "To the Amish, many of whom travel the few dozen miles or so from their homes by horse and buggy, the clinic has been heaven sent. It very often saves their children, who are disproportionately afflicted by rare and sometimes fatal genetic-based diseases because of 200 years of inbreeding."
The Amish alsolutely have to rely on the outside world for their medical needs. This is just another extension of it. And they have special needs because of all the inbreeding which these genetisists are helping out to deal with.
Face it, their gene pool is so shallow and it's getting shallower with people leaving and not joining that in a few more centuries they'll be freaks.
When I was a child, I once visited a Hutterite colony in Manitoba. It was quite interesting to see how they live. I went with my father who is a religion professor and they basically gave us a tour of the colony. From the simple homes to the farms and domesticated animals it was quite fun. I played and ate with the Hutterite children in their mess hall (chicken and potatos). The kids were pleased when I produced some bubble gum that I had in my pocket. I'm sure Hutterite colonies are just as isolated as the Amish or Mennonites and would be good candidates for this type of research. Not exactly sure of how things have changed, or whether their view of technology differs much from the Amish or Mennonites, but they were clearly entirely self-sufficient.
That inbreeding mentioned isn't necessarily just among distant cousins as one would hope. This article in Legal Affairs magazine points out that some of that is from much more direct relations, such as brothers raping their sisters.
6 weeks of the silent treatment doesn't strike me as an appropriate punishment for raping your sister or daughter.
Everyone on my foe's list is an evolution denier.
The above statement means little. Creationists of belief X usually consider Creationists of belief Y (where Y != X) to be lost sheep, damned, etc.
A Google search for "are mormons christians" leads to some interesting reading. They seem to consider themselves to be Christians but the bigger kids on the block would rather not invite them to play.
Rich And Stupid is not so bad as Working For Rich And Stupid.
The ability of people to write about a "community" without looking at women's lives is amazing (Do a count in any issue of National Geographic). Presumably half the Amish are female, but what do we learn of their experience of technology in these stories? Browsing around more widely, it certainly doesn't look like their invisibility is because they enjoy the same type of lives as the men.
It would shed a great deal of light on the Amish if we were told what modern technology is considered acceptable for household chores, and how often men use it!
The article tells of systematic rape and abuse with no punishment, and with generations of incest producing an inbred and backwards society, condoned by the american govt. giving them the legal right to police themselves, dealing out their own justice where they see fit.
After reading the entirety of the article, it would be hard to dismiss this as an isolated case, but if you do and still consider that they represent some noble return-to-basics society and that their rejection of technology is somehow endearing, there are other sources, and a dedicated blog that may help to change your mind.
"Those who do not want to imitate anything, produce nothing." -- Salvador Dali
The article did talk a lot about the relationships between the Amish and the English.
-- Terrorism may have turned the United States into a nation of fear and aggression, but it won't succeed in Europe.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
HCM means - hypertrophic=increased, cardio=heart myopathy=sick muscle, so patients have a heart who's muscle becomes so thick , that it interpheres with its normal function, and the people can get conductional abnormalities , go into an arrythymia and suffer a fatal heart attack. HCM is better known as that disease that strikes down, often dead, young athletes, e.g. Hank Gathers basketball player.
Anyway, we tended to use the Amish for our genetic work, to track down the point mutation (code error of a single DNA base) in the DNA. We used them because; 1) they were somewhat inbred, and thus the disease had a higher incidence than the gen population, and 2) THey often had LARGE! closenit families, and 3) they tended to be helpful (everyone!! in the family went and donated their blood). These three things make an ideal setting to do genetic research.
So, yes we did find several different point mutations responsible for the heart disease, helped the families, got published alot, I got into med school and became a surgeon. So thank you Amish.
Interesting side note - we often brought many of them into Wash D.C. to do special heart testing with ultrasound, and so it was interesting talking to them. "That was our first time on an elevator/escalator" - a whole! family told me that. Not a lot of deoderant was used by them (o.k. none.). Their little kids were somewhat shy, but the adults dealt very well at being introduced in to a chaotic looking medical lab. I wish I had spent more time talking to them,it was an interesting chance to see a different point of view on things.
..........FULL STOP.
And who says science and religion can't work together? ;-)
Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
the problems you point out are big and important, but they're also not difficult to solve. seriously. they're pretty straightforward as far as societal problems are concerned. now contrast those with the advantages pointed out by the previous poster.
"Their idyllic society" is a pretty old one, and has seen the outside world change a lot over time. Think about their dependence, and how serious it is, based on where they've been already.
I remember reading a story - I believe it appeared in the Plain Reader - that talked about the Amish approach to technology:
> why do they depend on us for medical care?
Think of it like a Debian user does.
Debian has several repositories:
* SID -- contains the latest and greatest, but it can be unstable and things may be
* Testing -- contains those parts of SID that have been around a while don't seem to break anything
* Stable -- contains those parts of Testing that have been around for a while and don't break things. Stable isn't updated that often, but receives constant security patches.
Given this, let's describe how the Amish see it:
* SID -- Geek enthusists who'll by anything new and shiny
* Testing -- the rest of society who'll only use stuff that's actually useful
* Stable -- Amish-like communities who'll only use generally available technology that is both useful and has a positive impact on their society.
Now you might claim that the people who rely on Stable are in this privileged position because of all the people who use SID or Testing. You'd be right. But who cares? SID users are happy on the cutting edge, Testing users are happy with the less wild and wooly pace, Stable users are happy with the tried and true. Everyone wins.
I find the Amish the most interesting people in the US.
... it makes them go slower.
... the point is they are in control.
... it just does not matter. They are totally independent. This flies in the face with todays elite trying to make everyone 'interdependent'. I find it fascinating.
The main misconception is the Amish hate technology. This is not true. They just do not want technology to control them.
I'll give an example, if a vehicle can go faster than a horse it is banned. Why is this? Because people can then travel great distances and migrate away. Why is this a problem? Its a problem because it breaks up families. You know what, looking at my family that is precisely what happened! This is the main intention to take the rubber off the wheels of wagons
The Amish do not like electricity because it comes from the grid. In other words, it makes people dependent on others. So, you can go into a store and the ceiling fan will be run from air pressure. Yep, there is a gas pump pumping air to make the fan go around. Little tubes all over the ceiling. The pump might be running vegetable oil. Or they can store fuel
What is interesting is I saw some Amish using power tools. Yet, the tools were plugged into a portable generator and not the grid.
If there is a telephone it is outside the home. Why is that? Because strangers are not allowed inside the home. You have to get permission to use the phone and go outside. You see, technology is not in control again. Having a t.v. in the house is like inviting in a child abuser...and it is!
In the 60s, the US government tried to take over Amish schools and force their children to public schools. They fought that and won. See, more control...there was another school system in place before the feds and the 60s school take overs.
Its very nostalgic to see a horse drawn cart harvesting a field of corn. No gas used and totally independent.
They still have 5-6 children per family. So, in another century they will probably be a majority of the population in their state. Not dependent on immigrants to flip burgers. Again they are in control.
What's great is $60 oil, electric grid going out, router down
I have been reading posts and I see two claims that Amish practice environmentally friendly farming methods, and that they will survive peak oil.
Sorry, but in my personal experience (I lived next to Amish for years) some actually do more harm than good. The particular family that lived next to us operated a sawmill. They would stockpile months worth of scrap wood and light a fire to it that would rival A&M's bonfire. It was cool a few times, but they neglected the fact that this was done next to a very important and protected trout stream. It would rain and runoff from the ashes would seep into this stream causing changes to the PH level, harming the inhabitants.
Since electricity was not acceptable to this particular church, they ran their sawmill using diesel fuel. Our well water began to smell funny, and tests confirmed that diesel fuel was in our water. The trout stream ran next to the sawmill, and apparently they would clean fuel containers in the stream. Our well water was located 500ft below this stream. They obviously were doing something more than cleaning containers to get diesel fuel into our well. The Department of Natural Resources investigated and found that the level of diesel fuel was around 2000ppm in the stream!
I am not here to rag on the Amish, but to simply remind you that everyone is capable of damage to the environment; when profit is involved. The amish are a peaceful group of people and they live a life that seems enchanting to some of us, but corruption and greed lives everywhere.
Looks like some of it's on the mark but maybe a little over the top. The last bit about the kids being excited about the outside world but going back because their personal of development is dependent on that structure misses the mark, at least among the young of these religious groups.
It's more like they've had the fear installed in them that if they are to die 'out there' enjoying the pleasures of the world that they will pretty much go to hell. So it comes down to a matter of spiritual safety. It's the discomfort of living on the edge of danger that causes them to go back.
If an individual finds a way to logically think themselves past that fear then the situation flips. There is a distate to going back in under that kind of mental control.
Using the best knowledge of today to create the problems of tomorrow.
Nobody has mentioned the "Black Bumper Mennonites". At a tractor pull, they sit together in the stands wearing Blues Brothers type hats. They tend to drive black american-made cars and they spray paint over all of the chrome, especialy the bumpers, with black paint. Like most of the sects in Solanco (Southern Lancaster County), they can be very nice to us "English". As to the Amish "leaving in droves", that is because the developers are offering a lot of money for their farmland. Usually, they sell out because they have exhausted the soil anyway. They are not known as good stewards of the land. They are also criticized by many for being cruel to horses and their women.
I would say it's probably average, at least in my experience. I went to an Amish Mennonite elementary and middle school and we took the state educational evaluation tests every year. EVERYBODY in my grade placed above state average, even the *dumb* ones.
Amish and Mennonite intelligence is applied differently maybe. And in some sense even the ones that try to assimulate into the larger culture are always on the outside looking in. Its not a bad thing. It gives great perspective.
Using the best knowledge of today to create the problems of tomorrow.
Just for reference not all Mennonites live in closed communities, their active members of their communities, they buy and use technology and frequently marry people from outside their church, their pretty normal and no they don't marry their cousins, atleast no more than any other group of americans.... IF you think it's weird for a woman to wear a dress she sewed, she might think it's weird that another woman paid $300 for some jeans that a poor child was paid $0.20 to make.
You write it as if I should hear a subtle sarcasm when you state but that it is uncomfortable because of the presence of various kinds of evil presumed to be a property of the outside world, and conversely absent within the group.... this is one paragraph below where you tell us they have no sixth sense for crime and dangerous situations.
And this, seems both frightening and hollow. I'm an atheist, and I'd never dream of giving up technology, but anyone who hasn't thought our society is hollow at least once in his life is someone I'd likely consider to be shallow.
What they have works, and they dont have to crack down on misfits to make it work. They allow people to leave. Tell me this, if a son decides he can't live as they do and leaves, is he still welcome to visit? I honestly don't know, but if that turns out to be the case...
When they piss on everything Jesus stand for? They can shove their old testament mentality up their fascistic egoistic ass.
By the way, since they worship mammon as their first god, then cant be christians by any broad definition.
Jesus is the true hippie, Peace, love and understanding. Jesus is NOT war, envy and hate.
The golden calf is green, but do we all have to party in its honor.
>By contrast, most non-mainstream indigenous or technologically regressive societies are based on the concept of *strengthening* both individuals and communities,
I hate to break it to you, but having grown up in a very conservative, evangelistical religion where contact with outsiders was very much frowned on, I cannot help but find your words utterly, completely naive, and myself in complete agreement with the parent poster. Sure, such a society benefits some people, those who are happy to fit in and play the part.
However, in any society there are always those who don't fit in, the outcasts, such as the nerd, the artist, etc. Our "individualistic" society creates a place where these people can lead normal, productive lives. It protects the right of the minority (to a greater or lesser degree.) The right to make your own informed choices, to have something called an "imagination", to create art, to think critically about situations without others telling you what you are allowed to think (or not think), to learn about the universe and the world around you, the right to be curious and ask real questions and get real answers (instead of say, creationism).
There is a basic human need to fit in. Naturally any community can fill this need. Cults fill this need. Crazy nationalistic groups can even fill this need. When you break free from such a group, you discover that the world is not clear-cut black and white, and there are no easy answers to life's problems. And suddenly the community sees you as evil.
You see, the "communtity" is an illusion. They were never really your friends to begin with, their friendship was _conditional_ on your going along with their beliefs.
There is this trend nowadays to think that the low-technology of the past was some kind of panacea, forgetting that a couple centuries ago, before modern technology, how many women died at childbirt, how the average life-expectancy was half of what it is now. Truly naive. Without the dissenters, the individuals, without the scientists who broke from the strong religious communities of the past, we would still be dying from TB and the plague, and marvelling at the heavenly sphere that revolves around the earth, and fearing hellfire.
Yes, it is not easy to live in this society. But would I ever go back to where I was before? Hell no.
If some of these negative posts about the Amish are to be believed. Anyone or any community that stands alone is seen in a negative light. Any reasoned rejection of technology is seen as luddite. Self-sufficiency is still seen as parasitism because they don't kill in our armies. This libertarian sees sad times in our collectivized America. These Amish should just join the team and come on in for the big win. One more reason separation of school and state should be seen as progressive.
Maybe if we made an Amish mod for half-life, more kids will be lured to the path of wrongness, reducing the community!
That, and of course porn!
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
We sure could learn alot from them, if only they had email addresses and a heavy web presence. I just couldnt find Amish blogs anywhere.
Was also looking for online webcams of the farms and possibly Amish sitcoms. None.
Maybe we can help by releasing an Amish language Linux distro. Yeah that'll do it.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
Most of the energy that reaches Earth is through the Sun. Lucky us, the Sun reaches almost all parts of the planet.
So the obvious forms of getting energy are solar panels, windmills and wave energy generators. And then theres also nuclear power which we're using so heavily already, while waiting for the long overdue success of the JET project.
The only real issue we face is transportation. I suspect electric trains, expansion of subways and electric busses will fix the problem once oil becomes scarce. we'll never completely run out of oil, so less frequent uses will remain like jet aircraft. Plastics will become more expensive, and the solution will be recycling and finding more organic alternatives.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
... people attacked each other for their land and possessions. Considering the increasing scarcity of land, someone crazy enough might decide to attack a community who lacks the resources to defend themselves.
What are the benefits of a system with no social mobility and no room for individual brilliance?
+++ATH0
Wow...
Sure hope your degree in "Classical Retrograde Marxist Horseshit," with a minor in "Hating the Western World While Enjoying its Benefits" has helped you get where you want in the modern world.
Sheesh.
In every society there are always some bad apples. I see it more prevailent in societies with second-class people, whereas in Amish landings it is the woman that appears second-class. Whenever there is a power granted authority to interpret scripture a certain way, it tends to bring a bias that is self-serving to settle disputes with a rigid concept. I've used the Bible to protect females declared women, with godly results. I don't know what, but a man that looks at a woman in any way it is often an application of covetousness.
My standing is this; God created man as either male or female. A female can only be woman for a duration of time; a female with child is known as a woman, no different than a eunuch is a man that had been mutilated beyond doubt. Consider that a woman is with a child for nine months, whereas whatever the woman chooses is always afflict upon the child she bear in her womb; would it not be her husband, a man, to also have a say in the well-being of the child and the sake of the woman? Most women are accused of rash behaviour when burdened with a child in the womb; some consume unhealthy quantities of substances. The child in a womb being silent to all of this can't protest, and this is evidence that in God's law that the child is as much entitled to liberty from wicked decisions from the Host where the flesh had divided from.
Then there are people that abuse the law...for purposes of domination. Is that not what a District Attorney attempts, just by you having a Birth Certificate, does that give anyone a right to address you and deprive your standing on your possessions? In scriptures assembled into the Holy Bible, many times have people been denied of their possessions for abusing their standing. Consider the Israelites being overcome by the Chaldeans; they were backsliding from the law, and someone of greater standing took them in their sin.
It's the same with the Amish; if you see anyone kill, steal, adulterate, bear false witness, covet, then you are to commit an expose on their sin as you would anyone else. None are above or below the law, but equal standing. Any lack of your actions to audit another is equal as exaulting them above all that is good. God and good is same to me.
I hope you well, friend!
without prejudice
Ashkenazi Jews are more susceptible to a particular kind of breast cancer. There is a test for it. The test has patent protections and these people have to fork out royaltie$.
I hope the Amish and Mennonites negotiate as a group so none of them have to pay anything more than token royalties on tests that come out of using them as test subjects. It would be a shame to tell them "thanks for letting us use you, here's your $100, now when each of your friends get tested for this killer gene $200 goes back into our pockets."
For more info, click here , here , and here
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Humans, and indeed all animals, have some natural degree of inbreeding and some natural degree of gene-flow to which they are optimally adapted. Not all populations of a species may be equally adapted to the same rates of inbreeding/gene-flow, btw. For example, there is a lot more gene-flow among Bantu Africans than most other populations. Interestingly the hunter-gatherer Bushmen have a lot higher inbreeding and lower gene-flow.
Seastead this.
Get with the times man. It is now called "Native American and Foreign White Oppressors"
Hooptie
"Heavens, it appears that my weewee has been stricken with rigor mortis!" -- Stewie Griffin
"Insular, inbred communities like the Ashkenazi Jews and Indian tribes
I know I shouldn't laugh at this, but wtf?
http://xs4.xs.to/pics/04481/p556222.gif
I had an interesting moment the other day when i recieved a phone call from an amishman who has a telephone at the lightpost at the end of his driveway. He was just calling to say that he was gonna visit with us and some other family that saturday, but imagine my suprise when i said "Who is this" and the reply was a pause follewed by "Ike......the amishman"
If I'm understanding right, the reason genetisists study Ashkenazi Jews is that in the *past* they were insular (not neccessarily by choice, given prevailing attitudes in the middle ages) and inbred (due to the relatively small Jewish population in any one place in medieval Europe). While Europe probably has plenty of similar non-Jewish populations, (*any* small village in the middle ages was probably insular and relatively inbred) Ashkenazi Jews are more findable and accessable than, say, the descendants of people-who-lived-in-a-generic-small-village, and have remained more genetically homogenous through the years.
Not to mention, but those Amish babes are hot, Hot, HOT! I was lucky enough to have been passing through Lancaster one Friday night last year. The local grange was running a wet bonnet contest. Awesome! I only wish that I could have hung around for the "milking" event.
...no inbreeding study would be complete without these folks...
Larry Wall, and one of the other main perl guys, i'm sure someone will fill us in.
Sadly, these are the same people who would probably see the most benefit from the genetic studies.
Doing my level best to piss off the religious right wing...
I suppose we'll either revert to a batch of loincloth-wearing savages, or transcend our boundaries and become gods ourselves. Y'know, one of the two.
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
So how long do you have to live somewhere before you become "indigenous"? The Han chinese swept out of Mongolia not too long ago---the areas where people now speak Sino-Tibetan languages used to be populated by people speaking Austronesian, who look very little like the Han. So---Han out of China! Normans out of England! Etc!
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
I haven't read the article yet, but if your system of morality forbids pointing out widespread, epidemic child abuse, no matter what your own society does, then your system of morality is fucked up.
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
More entirely on topic, I think it's a good thing that the Amish evaluate technology and its impact on community instead of chasing after every new thing without thinking. There are both negative and positive consequences to technology, but in our culture we are driven only to look at the positive. The case can be made that the Amish methods of farming are much more environmentally friendly, there's less environmental impact farming with horses than tractors, and there have been particularly rainy seasons where the Amish were able to plant their crops much earlier than farmers using tractors because horses don't sink in the mud nearly as much as a tractor. But, that doesn't mean that even in farming, they don't use technology, they're able to get much higher crop yield today than a hundred years ago because they're willing to use high tech fertilizers (the case can be made that they get the best of both worlds that way). It makes perfect sense that they'll allow genetic research, they see how diseases are affecting them, and research on understanding those diseases will benefit their communities and everyone else.
That's one thing I like about the Amish, along with others such as Mennonites, these close knit groups take their tyme to evaluate technologies to see what the impact of their use will have on the community. To me that's a saner approach than using technology just because it exists.
FalconShould there be a Law?
One of the core values was "believer's baptism," following Jesus' example that baptism is not just a mindless thing you have done to you as a child, but a public declaration by someone who understood that they were making a lifelong commitment to follow Jesus Christ. Another core value, of course, was/is pacifism and nonresistance. These views cost them dearly in terms of persecution for a couple hundred years or so.
Yea, that brings up something that came up last year. My sister had a daughter in March of 2004 and she and her husband had a "Dedication Ceremony" wherein they vow to bring their daughter up in dedication to Christ. I had no idea about these ceremonies, didn't know about them, and I confronted my sister about it saying I thought that when her daughter was old enough she should be the one to decide what type of life and what her beliefs would be and not to have one force fed to her. I don't recall all she said but my sister explained that what they were doing was to try to raise her daughter knowing the values of Christians (of her type) and that her daugther would be baptized when she was old enough to decide for herself that's what she wants.
It's kind of funny what my sister did. For years she was a Randian , a follower of Ayn Rand . Then she found out about Objectivism . Once she found this out she turned off of Ayn Rand.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Being a person of Anglo-Saxon Teutonic heritage (read: German) who is American I have an intial knee-jerk reaction but then I think about it.
9 years ago I organised Weedstock, a 3 day benefit for NORML, and "Agricultural Educational Event" in Monroe County, Wisconsin. The rural area is heavily amish, tho our host was not.
The County authorities reluctantly acknowledged our 1st Amendment right to hold the event, but sought ways to agressively enforce the marijuana laws with "traffic' stops of those entering and leaving. They sought to use the Amish neighbors' land as staging and surveillance posts, but were refused.
I later heard from our host that he'd met with the 80 odd year old bishop, who, on hearing of our advocacy of reintroducing hemp as a fiber crop, went on a tirade against the Federal Government's ban on this useful plant, which his people had used extensively, especially for handwoven clothing.
Ben Masel: 51,282 votes for US Senate in the Wisconsin Democratic Primary
Are you saying that there are Amish occupied parts of North America south of Canada and North of Mexico that don't belong to the USA?
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
the USA exists in name-only. Read the constitutions for the states that are composing the united States of America, and then read the Federal "States" that compose the Confederation known as "The United States of America." If somthing is owned, then it exists either as a natural person (man) or a artificial person (corporation). Also, read the constitutions for the states; all of them forbid confederation. Technically, only the people willing to confederate their subdivision of this state to a foreign state are breaking the constitution. Also, I distinctly remember reading Continental promisory notes that read as "THE UNITED STATES OF NORTH AMERICA". Also, according to the Constitution of the District of Columbia; government extends to provincial Canada. Isn't that "strange"? Yet, in general, the answer to your question is yes. Why be a citizen when you take no part in the benefits of a adhering to citizenship? According to the constitutions of every state, there were people greatful to Almighty God for separating as freemen from Almighty God into a State within a state, then there are the people that did not separate from Almighty God and remain on the original estate. This is what I hope to emphasize. I may apply the chicken-before-the-egg principal if need to ask who is principal and who is second-class (sadly). The purpose for the State of a state is that the revolution could have terminated the actual colonial charters; thus the new status would be, for example, not Citizen of Pennsylvania, but Citizen of the State of Pennsylvania. All these states under british control need sign the unanimous Declaration, yet a foreign state created by Congress or by the people without Congress would not need such a spaghetti-like structure from their post-Revolutionary War questionable citizenship. Can anyone say, (in admiralty) "Abandon citizenship and board onto the State quick, she's going under?"
without prejudice
You really should post a sig with every comment of yours that says "I am cuckoo, crazy, insane."
Would save folks a lot of time.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
If a man were to say to you, "your house is on fire!", your analogous response would be, "shut up, it's not like yours isn't smoldering too---you hate fire, that's what, and I bet you wear a tinfoil hat, too," as opposed to the more reasonable "no, it isn't".
Oh, but feel free to call me a TV-watching consumer. I mean, without strawmen, we'd have to actually address each others' arguments and ideas, and who knows where that could lead?
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
I suppose you could say that the Normans integrated with the Anglo-Saxons, and that the Anglo-Saxons before them integrated with the Picts, but the Han? They retain nothing of the culture that was there before them. Or the Bantu-speaking peoples of most of Sub-Saharan Africa, who displaced or isolated most of the previously extant Khoisan peoples?
So, as I was saying. Han out of China! Bantu out of South Africa!
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca