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Space Shuttle to Receive Emegency Repairs
Tycow writes "The BBC are reporting that
Discovery needs emergency repairs - dangling material has been spotted on the belly of the shuttle, and NASA are worried they could cause overheating on re-entry. 'Nasa is concerned the dangling material - called gap fillers - could cause part of the shuttle to overheat as it re-enters the atmosphere.The type of repairs being planned have never been conducted by astronauts on a spacewalk before.'"
According to NYTimes, this is what they're planning to do:
The astronaut would first try to remove the cloth, which is glued in place, by pulling it out with his gloved hand, she said. If that failed, he would use a set of forceps to tug the filler out or to hold the cloth while he cut it off with scissors, she said.
Are they saying that this piece of cloth (which may be removed by (1)pulling it out with bare hand, (2)poking it out or (3)cutting it off with a pair of scissors) won't simply burn away during re-entry?
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
... the proverbial klingon?
emegency
he type of repairs being planned have never been conducted by astronauts on a spacewalk before.'"
Did they bring the duct tape ? Wouldn't want to be the one that was supposed to but forgot.
I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them.
It's NASA not Nasa. And it's not Ohuk, it's OHUK.
The type of repairs being planned have never been conducted by astronauts on a spacewalk before.
How is this noteworthy at all? There are infinitely more repairs that haven't been done by astronauts on a spacewalk than have. It's not all that unusual; hell, cleaning off a mysterious stain on the outside of the craft would apply.
It's only an insult if it's not true.
No it won't burn away, the cloth is ceramic-coated with the same material as the thermal tiles on the orberter belly; they can withstand thousands of degrees farenheit. The protrusions will break away some, but in past landings, they have measured protrusions of at least one half inch AFTER the craft has landed and the protusion was manipulated by the landing. There was no way to know how big the protrusions were prior to landing because they couldn't examine the craft to the level of detail they can post-Columbia.
I hope when he's yanking on it, it doesn't unzip the lower tiles like a zipper. It's shouldn't, but with government contractors putting these things on, who knows?!
Spaceflight Now | STS-114 Shuttle Report | Shuttle mission extended to give bonus day at station
Spaceflight Now | STS-114 Shuttle Report | NASA gives go-ahead to spacewalk repair work
(and the headline says "Emegency" -- someone fix that, please)
i am a soviet space shuttle
It's a minor problem, which ordinarily would have gone unnoticed. It's probably happened many times before. NASA is just being paranoid because they can't afford another accident. Alternative theory, NASA wanted to find something wrong that isn't really a danger and prove they can fix it, and that there is no danger anymore in space travel.
And y'all laughed at me when I said it was a good idea for NASA to start putting an immigrant Mexican on each shuttle flight!
If NASA were this namby-pamby about every little thing back in the 60's, we never would have landed men on the Moon.
Can't they just find a happy medium somewhere between "reckless disregard for crew/vehicle safety" (e.g. Challenger) and "paranoid that every little thing will cause loss of crew/vehicle"?
I heard this at least two days ago. If you're a real enthusiast you'd go someplace else for this kind of news.
It seems from this, and other articles, that NASA are rightly taking a conservative line on issues with the shuttle's heat shielding. After the high profile Columbia disaster, it can only be a good thing that the additional information gathered and attention paid to the heat shielding has found these kinds of problems early and given opportunities for them to be repaired whilst there is an opportunity. After the mistakes made previously, I'm sure the entire organization are pulling on all the resources possible to ensure the safe return of the crew.
Business Voyeur
the dangling material - [] - could cause part of the shuttle to overheat as it re-enters
What a co-incidence!! My dangling material also overheats on re-entry.
I think Vladimir the Russian guy in Amrmagedon said it best while tryinh to fix the ship before going splat:
"Russian parts American parts... All made in Taiwan!" hits machine with big heavy object
will one roll wrap all the way around the shuttle?
I don't think there's anything else the rest of us can do except pray to Jesus Christ that He will keep the shuttle and its occupants safe on its return.
Faith in astronauts plus faith in Jesus will save the shuttle.
I'm guessing they're working on the movie right now. Happy ending? To be determined...
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
An emergency instills in the mind that their lives are in imminent danger. From earlier news stories regarding this gap filler, it has always sounded like more of a precaution than an emergency.
Precaution as in "Yeah, we'll have to consider if it's worth the risk of going outside and repairing it."
Versus emergency as in "WTF?!? Somebody get out there and repair the gaps!!1"
I realize the scope of taking small chances when it comes to space flight and 2500F re-entry temperatures... but everything seems so sensationalized with this.
In other news:
Google News had a main page link talking about the astronauts going "into the belly" of the shuttle. The news story it linked to talked about the astronauts spacewalking and making gap filler repairs to the underside of the shuttle. Since when can you be outside and inside something at the same time?
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!
Yes, *that* Bob Vila.
#1 Wrong story. #2 The car's not controlled by anyone, it has it's own "brain"
Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
Yeah, and it's even weaker because you posted to the wrong thread...
why didn't they send them up with a bunch of Super Glue??
Cutting the material off is risky, they might slip and gouge a tile, pulling it out doesn't sound too good either, at least in my mind.
Seems Super Glue is in order. I would think they would have some on board, maybe on the ISS???
That's the end of manned space flight in the US. I don't even think commercial manned space flight will be permitted.
How we know is more important than what we know.
But if another fatal shuttle disaster is what it takes to de-fund this white elephant...
What the heck is that?? Spell check!!!
This is one of those "this has a one in 5,000 chance of causing any problem, and a 1 in 20,000, chance of being dangerous." Problem is, if you screw up AGAIN, on THIS mission, people are gonna be a lot more upset. So they are being extremely paranoid.
Now this is good that they are looking over things more closely and seeing problems like this, but they are reacting probably too much to the problem. I'd be willing to bet this has been an issue since the first shuttle flight, that they simply hadn't noticed before. We already have retarded paranoia here with the homeland security crap, (omigod a terrorist is going to bomb my SHED!) but now paranoia on the space shuttle. Sheesh... people, get a grip.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
I raced RC cars for years. Nothing I saw in that postage-sized clip was anything special. Move the bumper back on a standard Team Losi XXX4 and it'll climb stairs too...
I for one am impressed - somehow, you managed to respond to the wrong article.
Nicely done, Tripps, wrong thread. I wonder how that happened?
xander
Rhapsody in Numbers
... then you are a pompous asshole who deserves a sound beating.
That's right. All your base.
It also seems like they have spent a large fraction of their space-time on this mission simply making sure the shuttle is fit to return to Earth, rather than doing useful space work. The shuttle was sold on the promise of routine, cheap, quick flights to space, and we have something that flies so irregularly that it's hard to even say how often it flies (once a year or less?). It's such a bucket of bolts that astronauts then have to spend half their time just inspecting it for damage while they're in orbit. NASA should not be putting astronauts at risk in a ship like this. NASA should be spending its budget on programs that have a future, rather than programs which have been a dead end for a long time.
------------
mobile search - coming soon
I don't know why anyone hasn't thought of this before, maybe it's just seredipity on my part. NASA should talk with the packaging industry, e.g., RIAA and how they package CD's (don't remember the last time I've opened a CD without it damaging the knife, jewel case, my hand, etc.), or the computer industry. I just purchased a logitech mouse and after what I went through to get the friggin' mouse out of its packaging, I'm pretty sure some of these materials and techniques could be useful in creating a more sound Shuttle. Certainly they're at least up to re-entry heat and forces.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
nah, use Elmer's glue! it's pretty universal so by definition it should work for astronauts...
My sig is permanently on strike.
If only the US Government spent a tenth of the amount that they spend on Weapons of Mass Destruction (tm) on their space program, maybe in-flight repairs wouldn't be necessary.
... and they've been there for years now. Maybe 1/100th is all that would be needed.
Actually, a tenth would be way too much. The Iraq adventure is costing American citizens $US 1 billion per day
the repairs involve high tech duck tape or a swiss army knife.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
A little bondo and some buffing should do the trick.
if sign.nil? Sig.new
Very simply under Clinton the EPA refused to let NASA use Freon to apply the foam to the H2 tank. Since NASA is a socialist organization they could not fight it. I tried posting this a THE story earlier today:5 .shtml
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/7/28/9305
Perhaps Big Brother will censor it.
...being someone in the loop, I can tell you with 100% confidence that as of 10:45AM this morning they still weren't sure that a EVA was necessary.
-everphilski-
There is no such thing at least on manned flights, maybe fixing the hubble counts, that that is about it.
They should just use the Inanimate Carbon Rod to make the repair.
NASA should be using Duct Tap to fix the shuttle.
If they did, wouldn't they have to faucet into the crack?
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
it might be on the top of several apartment buildings, but it won't look too good.
Get a spatula and scrape that crap off!
Maybe it isn't NASA who is being paranoid... Anyone think it might be the astronauts?
Supreme Court Rules Against Grokster
Terrorists Bomb London
Bush Nominates Roberts to Supreme Court
Deep Throat Finally Revealed
Given the way the US is going, rather than building better space shuttles, we'll just blow up everyone else's "Weapons of Mass Exploration."
heheh good stuff =)
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
You beat me to it. ;)
This sig rocks the casbah.
My lesson of the day would be when to use "is" and "are".
NASA is the name of an organization. It's a singular noun, not a plural noun. You'd say, "NASA is", not "NASA are".
I can understand if the person is from Europe where the grammar rules are different, but I see many Americans not being able to speak their primary language.
That is all.
Being a little extra-cautious is a good idea when there's lives at stake. With the current track history of shuttle problems and the fact that the entire world wants to know what's going to happen, I think it's in order.
All of these things will give them valuable data for future missions. They'll try to repair the thing, and even if they aren't successful they'll know what they'll need to do next time. If it works, they'll have a better understanding on what needs to be done to prevent the damage and/or how to fix it faster.
Despite the fact that the moon landing was several decades ago, space exploration is in it's infancy and there's so many unknowns. You shouldn't take it lightly - NASA obviously doesn't.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
Better yet, just use a little black Rustoleum to cover it up. What they can't see won't hurt them, just like when you sell that rusty, used car with the new, high-polish finish. Of course you'll still need a little tape for masking off the windows that you don't want painted over, but it takes a whole lot less tape to cover those tiny little windows on the front of the shuttle than to wrap all the way around. Really the only time you need to wrap the shuttle completely is when the cargo bay doors won't lock.
If you don't want crime to pay, let the government run it.
Part of the mission was to test the use of such a compound on a spacewalk.
On the first spacewalk of the mission, Noguchi will open this [package of pre-damaged Shuttle parts] and attempt to repair the tiles using a sticky, thick grey substance called "emittance wash".
Robinson will then test a crack repair technique using a material referred to as Noax, for Non-Oxide Adhesive Experimental.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4676473.stm
I grow weary of the numerous slashdotters and beyond who piss and moan about the shuttle: It's too old, It's too expensive, It's too much hardware, It's not enough hardware, My TI calculator has more processing power. Blah blah blah.
If you people--and you know who you are--really want the shuttle replaced, elect someone with a clue. If they don't care, demand to know why not. Encourage others to support candidates who enjoy more than a passing acquaintance with our history as a space power. Make well-reasoned suggestions as to a replacement, or a realistic new vision. Don't simply call for a major paradigm shift and expect politicians to wave the magic wand and get it right. That's how we got the shuttle--leaving the vision to politicians who then assign the task to scientists and tell them to do it on a shoestring budget, because they'd rather spend more on pork back home.
But PLEASE stop pissing and moaning that we should "replace the shuttle already," or "park it for good," and whatnot. The time spent engaging in such wasted keyboard exercises could be better spent composing letters to your representative and senators, printing them, and sending an actual hard copy to each. Hard copies still demand far more attention than electrons on a screen, you know.
The shuttle has served long and well. It is a wonderful work of man, hobbled in design and execution by the fanciful notion that one can get a dollar's worth of good from a dime's worth of spending. Stop pissing and moaning, and step up to the plate with substance. Otherwise, enjoy recess, kiddies.
Mmmmmm... Bold, yet refreshing!
In order to deal with this matter appropriately, the engineers in Houston should create a similar scenario (i.e. a loose cloth) on the remaining shuttle and attempt to yank at it. Then, the engineers should determine whether another piece of vital equipment might be dangerously and excessively dislodged by the yanking. This sort of simulation and estimation should be done before you tell the astronauts in orbit to do the same thing.
I have a sneaking hunch that, due to time limitations and overbearing managers, the engineers have not done the simulation.
Buddha be with our American and Japanese crew members and deliver them safely to the West.
Of course, the fanatical believers in manned space flight would never even consider that this shows the monstrous demerits and grotesque waste of manned flight versus unmanned.
The safest thing to do is the following.
We should ask Moscow to send a spacecraft to the space station and to safely return the American and Japanese crew members back home. Then, we give the American and Japanese engineers time to simulate and study the mechanisms that caused the cloth to dangle loosely. Also, the engineers simulate what would happen if someone attempts to yank the cloth off. In other words, we make 100% sure that all is well.
Then and only then, we send up another Western crew via a Russian spacecraft. That crew will then fix the space shuttle and fly it back home.
The whole process might take 2 months, but at least, we can be certain that our American and Japanese crew members will be safe.
What makes this shuttle mission different is that they now have new views of the space shuttle. So they are equipped to see and fix problem areas they were previously ignorant of. They have landed with dangling gap filler before. However now because of Columbia that are very wary of such things. So this repair is more of a "just in case" scenario rather than "omg the shuttle is going to blow up".
A good recap (RealPlayer) can found from the News Hour on PBS.
The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
the only thing is the shuttle isn't designed to stay out that long, who knows if it would even fire up again when its time to go?
Actually I thought I heard this morning that they had already simulated this procedure using a full scale mockup in Nasa's Underwater pool.
Its not a bad idea, but probably wouldn't work. The shuttle's fuel cells can only keep the craft powered for about two weeks. By the time they were ready to land, there wouldn't be any juice left to power life support (or the ship itself) during the landing. Even if the ship could be powered down in the interim so that there'd be juice left later, its probably no small matter to power it back up during orbit, and it probably wasn't designed for that to be done.
Understanding is a three edged sword. - Ambassador Kosh Naranek, Babylon 5
From TFA:
"This is the new Nasa. If we cannot prove this is safe, we don't want to go there. It exceeded our threshold and we needed to take action," Mr Hale said.
Spaceflightnow.com:
"Today at the mission management team meeting we had a very long discussion about aerodynamics," Hale said. "I went in with a very simple question: Did we have the engineering knowledge and analysis that would, without a shadow of a doubt, allow us to be 100 percent confident the vehicle could fly safely during entry?
"without a shadow of a doubt..."
"100 percent confident..."
"If we cannot prove this is safe, we don't want to go there..."
C'mon, Dr. Hale. I mean, Columbia was a tragedy and all, but who are you trying to fool? Most people understand that space travel in 2005 is Really Fricking Dangerous. These absolute statements are ridiculous. Of course there is never going to be 100 percent confidence levels, of course you cannot prove that the damned thing won't explode.
I can't help but feel that this problem, and many others like it, have occurred on many previous missions. The first flight following Columbia, with the new spacewalk-to-fix-problems policy, ends up with a spacewalk. Hmm....
I certainly understand there is an uknown risk with the possibility of high heating due to a transition to high speed turbulent flow. But maybe the entire space shuttle needs to be scrapped for a new design if the thing is going to need a 'risky' spacewalk every flight (on the other hand, valuable experience will be gained as it always is when something like this happens).
A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous, got me?
...as in "This is a Smegergency!"
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Awww, isn't that cute! He thinks the war in Iraq is helping defend us! I bet he thinks, in that cute little head of his, that Iraq is the front line against terrorism!
Ah, the sweet sound of blissful innocence! Running across a meadow, eyes rolling, arms flailing, tongue flapping in the breeze, saliva flinging every which way, and finally, crashing nose first into a tree.
Sigh...
I dunno... how well does an aerosol-applied paint dry in a vacuum?
The Chronic *WHAT* les of Narnia!
I spoke with a guy from the Mission Management Team (MMT) tonight here in Cape Canaveral. He confirmed that such small pieces of gap filler are not expected to affect the creation of the barrier layer during re-entry, and so do not pose a threat to the orbiter.
The real reason for this 'repair' is because this whole mission is to "test orbiter repair techniques" - and these virtually irrelevant pieces of gap filler provide an unexpected, but very fortunate opportunity to try a real repair technique out in a relatively safe and controlled fashion.
NASA doesn't yet know if it's even possible to have an astronaut perform repair-type work on the underbelly of the orbiter - they think it would be possible, but they have no hard data to say it can be done.
But these small bits sticking out give them the perfect excuse to go test it and get some real-world experience on the issue.
If it looks like the astronaut might damage some of the Thermal Protection System tiles down there, they'll just terminate the repair attempt and fly home as-is. If not, they'll demonstrate that astronauts can go under an orbiter and perform repair tasks down there safely and without harming the TPS.
But I'll bet you'll hear the popular press making too much out of this as usual...
The danger is that tugging and pulling at the cloth just might loosen some vital piece (e.g. a tile) of the spacecraft.
Okay but they don't seem too concerned
from nasa.gov
"Mission managers decided to remove two gap fillers that are protruding from areas between heat-shielding tile on the Shuttle's underbelly. It is a relatively simple process that can be accomplished as an add-on task to Wednesday's spacewalk."
...they're just up there, 'wrenching'...
Everything's noteworthy on some level.
I hadn't heard about the stain... bummer...
Cheers
We apologise for the fault in this post. Those responsible have been sacked. -- Signed RICHARD M. NIXON
Tho its fucked up, he is just being brutally honest. You my fucktard friend are the pompous asshole. Its your type who try to deny the fact that its an overbloated project and a waste of tax dollars. look at the russians going up 30 million dollars a rocket, and no crashes since 1971. we are doing 4 billion or more every single launch. Do the fucking math asshole!! you are like one of those bush/rove fuckers who try to turn around anything anyone says against them, when in reality you yourself are the real problem.
Thank you and have a great evening
the russian space agency said that returning the astronauts with soyuz capsules isn't possible.
a soyuz capsule has only space for three astronauts and each one needs a custom-made bucket seat. the russians even mentioned that the astronauts are not properly trained and fit enough for a parachute landing in a soyuz.
Anyone ever seen Apollo 13? I wasn't alive during the period that the movie is set in, but, apparently, when they were stuck, it was like a big emotional national thing that was on the news 24/7.
But this thing -- it could be like that. It'd be like "Ohh, we're praying for those brave astronauts", followed by people making emotional arguments that we need to spend more money on space stuff and science, which would ultimately be good, right? Hmm.
Underwater pool? I think you mean cement pond?
120chars for a sig is teh suck
The 3 technologycal birds will are dead.
Personally, I think you're nuts if you advocate "the safest approach."
The space program was popular in America during the 60s in no small part to the sense of adventure it gave not just the astronauts, but to the people following the news. People knew the program was dangerous, and they understood that it was for an important purpose: Beating the Russians.
NASA did such a good job protecting our astronauts, we lost only three men prior to Challenger, and those three were on the ground when they died. Space didn't seem so scary any more. Once we beat the Russians to the moon, the us-vs-them side of the equation died down, too. We were left with a space program driven by commercial, military and scientific interests, but none of those carried with them the same social interest that danger and the fear of a Red moon provided.
Here, we're shown again that space is dangerous. All you have to do is flip through the TV news channels or a newspaper, and you'll find a story about the current Shuttle mission. Space exploration has a lot of attention, and we need to capitalize on that by showing the American populace we're capable of facing the danger and beating it.
Bring our boys home safely on this space craft, and you'll bring back popular confidence and support. Pussyfoot through it, and you'll only convince the populace that space is something we're not ready for. And, this being a republic, if people don't think we're ready for space, they'll be persuaded that there are more beneficial things for that money to go to, like tax refund checks.
Until it supports itself financially, manned space exploration is going to have to thrive on the public's sense of adventure.
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
Nah. It's the end of the Shuttle, certainly, and possibly the end of the ISS. But the US is too proud of it's space dominance to cut itself completely out of the race.
They'd ground the fleet, perhaps de-orbit the station (unless they could arrange with the Russians to run it), and get to work on whatever is going to replace the Shuttle. It wouldn't happen soon; it would start with too many bureaucrats in too many departments layering on requirements (which is part of what made the Shuttle itself such a nightmare.) It would be at least a decade.
Buran isn't a copy of the US shuttle, although it looks similar. Buran has no main engine; it's launched on the back of an Energia booster. So there are more expendable components, but it's simpler.
From the latest post at Hoagland's Blog:
... Maybe ... NEVER!?
... again.
... while Discovery is still in orbit!
... and the immense impact of these problems on the larger Shuttle Program.
....
....
... why the sudden, almost embarrassing "openess?" Why the committment, so early in the Mission, to literally "let it ALL hang out?"
... why begin such a"new policy" ... before the current crew was back safely on the ground ... when such a policy could literally cost lives (see below) -- if not the entire Shuttle Program?!
... and while the astronauts are still in flight! -- that NASA was suddenly, indefinitely--
... at (to me) precisely the wrong time--
...?
... to the lowliest guy who sweeps the floor in the VAB, who's now specifically tasked with the critical job of looking for debris which could damage even one of those extremely fragile tiles ....
...? Why tell them so precipitously, that the entire Shuttle Program has once
Return to Flight -- NOT Yet
So, the Shuttle Fleet is grounded because of foam coming off the Tank
Is this truly a surprise?
What is surprising is that the Space Agency told us
In striking contrast to the actions of the JPL management and scientific team controlling the increasingly mysterious Deep Impact Mission these past few weeks, NASA Shuttle managers overseeing the on-going STS-114 Discovery Mission have displayed a remarkable candor concerning both the potential problems with Discovery
Like -- telling us IMMEDIATELY they were "grounding" the entire Shuttle Fleet (!) -- as soon as the television images and digital stills were downlinked from the Mission, even before they were analyzed competely
John Shannon -- Space Shuttle Operations Manager -- foreshadowed this truly remarkable development when he stated at the first technical press briefing, the afternoon of Discovery's spectacularly successful launch:
"... I didn't come in with a lot of answers today. I came in trying to send a message that this is a test flight. And, we're very early in a six-day process. We're gonna share that with you as we go through it.
"We're not gonna keep data behind closed doors and try to understand it fully before we bring it out, we're gonna have you walk the trail with us. And we're gonna bring the information in as we know it, and let you share in it [emphasis added]...."
The Deep Impact Team should take a MAJOR hint
* * *
This "new" NASA does however raise some fascinating questions for an "old" NASA watcher like me:
Like
And
I'm referring, of course, to NASA's (inexplicable, to me) amazing rush "to tell the whole world" -- and thus, all the literally thousands of NASA personnel working for the crew around the clock, trying to keep them safe in orbit, and to get them home alive
Grounding the entire Shuttle Program!
Why not simply wait?
Why did NASA make its shocking announcement (certainly, to many of its NASA personnel, if not the Discovery crew itself)
In the middle of a Mission??!!
Why, indeed
Morale is critical in any successful organization, certainly in a large-scale, complex operation such as a "manned" space mission. Literally thousands of people are involved in the Discovery Mission, from the managers at the top
Why deliberately put all those people in a psychological tailspin -- by "blurting out," within literally hours after lifetoff -- at the very Beginnings of this long-anticipated Mission -- in effect, that "countless NASA personnel and NASA contractors' efforts had been wasted over these preceeding two and half years
Having conquered the chart as the most populistic marvel of stupidity ever to leave the mouth of a NASA official, I have taken immediate action and incorporated it in my sig.
As of yet, no official statement has been received from NASA as to where exactly it is they do wish to go.
-
I know too, that the "real reason" is that the Shuttle crafts are grounded again, so money can be diverted to building new crafts..
The poor astronauts will "die" (while they will be taken to safety using either russian or other craft) publically.
From a comment in Hoagland's blog:
As an engineer who has spent 20 years of his career helping to design the control systems that spray foam onto External Tank components I am deeply saddended by the current turn of events!
I would like to let everyone know that the people who work at the Michoud Assembly Facility in New Orleans give their All to make these tanks the best that can be made.
I remember well when the foam formulation was changed to eliminate freon as the "Blowing" agent. We spent several years re-qualifying the spray systems. We also noticed that the new foam had different characteristics and required more test sprays to validate it. All this was mandated by NASA to meet enviromental goals dictated by the Administration in power at that time.
After we changed the foam we started hearing about Shuttle tile getting dinged and gouged. Hey, it's not our fault you, (NASA), mandated the change. The point is, they knew about this years ago and did nothing! We told them that the new foam was different and they did nothing! They knew about it before 2001 when I left the program!
I agree it's time to go to a new vehicle design for space exploration.
If were smart the fastest way to get back into space is to keep the SRB's and External Tank. Put the next vehicle's manned component above the tank on a cargo carrier. That way you don't trash several billion dollars of manufacturing facillities that we paid for.
Thanks for letting me Rant!!
Richard, your doing a Great job!
> Since when can you be outside and inside something at the same time?
When you get old enough, I will tell you
Nonsense.
While there is, certainly, a great deal of value from unmanned space flight, and while there should be appropriate consideration as to how the objectives of any given mission can be best achieved, unmanned missions ultimately have their own limitations, as well.
The idea that we should simply stay put, and not actively pursue a manned program with the specific intention of gathering medical information about the effects of a low/zero gravity environment upon the human body, so as to further the longer-term goals of manned long-range exploration, and eventually extraterrestrial colonization at some future date is the modern equivalent of saying "Gee, Ferdinand, we shouldn't be funding those crazy sailing expeditions. We know this Columbus guy's math is whacked out, so nothing can possibly come of it..." or "Man will never fly. And even if we could, we shouldn't bother, because we can walk, ride, or sail anywhere we'd ever want to go, so it would just be a waste of time and resources to try. We'd just be wasting them and never see any return..."
Columbus himself may not have, in the end, brought back a real route to the East Indies, or piles of gold, but that doesn't mean his trips were wasted. The knowledge he brought back of what he did find is what, in turn, led Vespusci and other explorers to take their own more successful journeys based upon his initial expeditions.
Manned exploration is more than simply a method that happens to be (a lot) more expensive than doing some things via unmanned missions. It's really a big part of the overall long-term objective as well.
"emegency"?
Looks like the title needs some repairs of its own...
Reasons why Russians flew Buran just once? A successful unmanned flight? (something US shuttles aren't capable of!)
1) To prove they can (cold war thing)
2) To waste no more money on a failed conception.
In the US, the shuttles are a pet of the military, government and different agencies. NASA would gladly retire them a long time ago, but they aren't allowed to. Russians recognized that Buran, despite being way better than the US shuttles, is still a bad design - too much redundant mass to be lifted into the orbit, too many parts that may fail, costs saved on reuse of the shuttle totally obliterated by costs of extra fuel, preparation and rebuilding non-reusable parts. Shuttles as such are a failed design and should be abandonned.
What we need is:
- a dedicated human transport vehicle. Something like the shuttle, just WAY smaller. Less weight, less energy wasted, less parts. 4-6 people, to orbit and back. Maybe launched from a plane, maybe from the ground, like a shuttle.
- a versatile orbital transport vehicle. Never meant to reenter the atmosphere, possibly docked to the space station most of the time. Automatic repairs, repairs on spacewalks, readjusting orbits of satellites, etc. refuelled with supplies delivered from Earth, but not much fuel required really.
- a cargo transport rocket. No need to limit thrust to grant human survival like in case of shuttles. Just transport cargo to orbit. Parts reusable in "best effort" manner, that is, drop on a parachute, if it's damaged/destroyed - no biggie. Cheap transport into space.
- emergency landers. Like the Soyuz capsules. Say, the human transport got damaged on launch and is incapable of reentry. Leave it on the orbit as another orbital transport, send the crew back in capsules.
Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
I think that the safest thing to do would be to use some of the tile-repair "goop" to try to paste the protruding material flat against the orbiter tiles, thus providing a much lower profile for the airstream on re-entry.
This would avoid dangers associated with pulling on the material (e.g., loosened or loose tiles) or attempting to cut it (lacerated tiles).
I don't know how well the goop will adhere to the material or tiles, though, or, for that matter, whether or not the material is flexible enough to fold it against the tiles, so this idea may not be feasible.
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
Yah? Whatcha need? :) Moon hoaxes debunked? Elton John lyrics recited? Nikon D70s, Volkswagens, or Macs raved about? Websites built? Voldemort vanquished?
i am a soviet space shuttle
Nasa wouldn't have this kind of problem... IF THEY WOULD ONLY TAKE TROY HURIBIES (however its spelled) SERIOUSLY! FirePaste could easilly be used instead of the standard tiles... and wouldn't burn up AT ALL on reentry! no matter how bad reentry goes! >_>
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
People routinely take risks - climbing Everest, extreme skiing, circling the globe on a balloon, high-altitude skydiving. I enjoy activities that could have "consequences" and would do more if I had the skill. I would also happily fly aboard a shuttle in it's current condition if they could find some use for me. Really, when dealing with such a harsh environment as space and such compelling scientific and spiritual benefits to humanity, thousands of volunteers would accept much higher risks than recreational sports and the rest have no business keeping them grounded. Apollo program and the journey of Columbus both had close calls and causalities, but where would we be if these expeditions were canceled because of safety concerns? I would say a trip to Mars that only has a 1/3 chance of success may be worth it if it means we get there 20 years earlier, because then the whole generation will grow up with inspiration they wouldn't otherwise have.
NASA did such a good job protecting our astronauts, we lost only three men prior to Challenger, and those three were on the ground when they died.
What are you talking about?
The US lost seven astronauts durring the Apollo program alone:
Elliott See
Charles Bassett
Theodore Freeman
Clifton Williams
Virgil I. Grissom
Ed White
Roger B. Chaffee
We also lost several other astronauts who were working on other projects, includeding Michael J. Adams and Robert Henry Lawrence, Jr.
The US also came very close to killing:
The Apollo 13 crew (Jim Lovell, John Swigert & Fred Haise) both durring the launch, and the famous explosion.
The Apollo Soyuz Test Project crew (Deke Slayton, Thomas Stafford & Vance Brand)
And this is what the ISS is useful for???
Astronaut Armstrong:Nah, don't send up that recovery vessle. I'm sure I can patch that shit up with some of this duct tape and Hubba Bubba.
WTF?!?
Need yet another seven astronauts.
YHBT.
It's a script that automatically reposts highly rated comment from other stories. It's been running off and on for quite some time now.
I vote that the next-gen shuttle includes a slot for an R2 unit.
Good luck, Discovery.
Q: What is the difference between Russian space rocket and the Shuttle? A: Russian rocket burn in the atmosphere, Shuttle is reusable. Q: What is the difference between a cosmonaut and an astronaut? A: Astronauts burn in the atmosphere, cosmonauts are reusable.
You can actually see the cloth protruding in this hi-res pic of Discovery's nose, just to the right and behind the nose wheel bay.
My web domain.
But then I realized it was only an emegency and not an emergency.
... that is a mindjob.. a preschooler could do better than that.
Jesus sweet fucking christ.. can't you IDIOTS spell anything correctly? I mean
Unbelievable, the level of incompetence shown here.
As it turns out, the material is often "jammed" in between the bricks and there's no record of how much they put in.
This sig seemed like a good idea at the time....
More like the end of the shuttle.
Still, i'm sure the astronauts will be motivated to fix it. It's their own future hanging in the balance.
Please mod up the parent :p
shana
...except it's not going to work.
Democracy has failed a big time in the US. The elections have no meaning. The true elections happen behind the scenes, when the candidates are choosen. Then, what is handed to the People, is a big show and ballots filled with dopplegangers. They may look different, talk differently, promise different stuff, but once elected, they follow exactly the same route the opponent would.
Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
I read (quite a long time ago) that the shuttle has 7 independent computers. If one goes wrong then obviously the others override it. Thats redundancy.
Now look at the external thermal protection. There's only one layer! And should it fail thats a guaranteed disaster, as tragically proven.
What a stupid design. If even remotely posssible EVERYTHING on the space shuttle should have redundancy. There should have been at least 2 layers of thermal protection built into the design.
A basic concept, redundancy. Hopefully its thought about when NASA designs the next spacecraft.
"The International Space Station's Canadarm2 robotic arm will position Discovery mission specialist Robinson underneath the shuttle so he can pull the gap fillers out."
Translated....
"We're going to dangle this dude under the shuttle by that funky arm so he can yank out the tile spacers left in by that jackass in maintenance. We hope no one sneezes because if the arm lets go, Robinson will be orbiting the earth on his own for some time"
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
Ya know,
I have the distinct feeling that these pieces of cloth have been dangling for years and it hasn't caused an issue yet.
It wasn't until they took a magnifying glass to the underside of the shuttle that the noticed them.
Gladfully, maybe this will be the straw that breaks the camels back and pushes NASA into gear... That is putting all of it's resources towards building a good stable quasi reusable spacecraft that doesn't have the limitations of the shuttle.
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
Uhm, correct me if I'm wrong but, isn't there a fair chance that one false move could create a bigger problem with the tiles and whatnot?
Friend: "The NIC is misconfigured..." Me: "No prob, I'll just telnet in and fix it." *Silence*
So the real problem seems to be that they forgot lots of things during the design phase of the Shuttle.
Linux is not Windows
How many programmers get a bug report, make a significant effort to fix it and believe they were successful, only to have the test group report the exact same problem when they evaluate the new build?
Any sufficiently complex system has problems that cannot be perfectly understood in simulations (or desk checking for the software analogy), unless you happen to 1) be very lucky or 2) have an I.Q. of 300. NASA was fixing the foam problem during the down time since Columbia. However, they could only test it on the ground, under conditions that at best are weak surrogates for real launch conditions. I'm not at all surprised they missed things, although the magnitude of the remaining problem is surprising.
Of course, NASA must (and does) scrutinize a problem far more than a typical programmer, but still there are limits. If it were feasible to design and launch a cheap (he-he) mockup of the shuttle to test the foam fixes without risking human lives, I'm sure they would have done it many times over.
This last problem with the gap filler worries me more for the possibility that it's a non-issue that they will make worse by trying to deal with it. Fortunately, my concerns were generally relieved after watching NASA TV last night. They showed ground technicians running through various options for sniping/hacking/plucking the gap filler from between tiles. Even when they intentionally ran into the tiles with a hack saw, it looked like they caused no damage.
RETURN without GOSUB in line 1050
I think that NASA needs to develop something like a large inflatable bag that can be put around the shuttle and a repair crew. Once the bag is sealed, the repair crew can strip off their suit gloves, giving them the manual dexterity needed for such repairs.
This would be a dangerous and resource expensive way to fix the shuttle, since you'd lose a great deal of air after you emptied the garage balloon. The repair crew would be at risk of decompression if a micro meteor hit the balloon during the repair period, but that risk is fairly small and the balloon could be positioned so it is partially sheltered by the station. Rescue balls should be kept close at hand in case of sudden depressurization, so the astronauts could crawl inside them and be towed inside the shuttle or space station.
This probably isn't the best solution, but I think that NASA needs to start working on ways to better support the shuttle for it's remaining missions. Perhaps we need to consider constructing an enclosed hanger attached to the spacestation that would serve the same purpose. It need not be fancy, just a structure in which the shuttle can be moored safely that can be pressurized to provide a shirt-sleeves environment for astronauts.
Before you tell me how stupid I am and that the cost of such a hanger would be prohibative, I'd like to point out that losing a shuttle is not exactly inexpensive. Building a proper maintenance facility into the space station should have been a priority. That would actually make the ISS useful for continued expansion into space.
-All that is gold does not glitter - Tolkien
www.ra
AFAIK the tiles are examined quite extensively after each launch, and many of them are replaced due to damage. However, that's a far cry from saying they are all replaced.
Grandparent should realize though that the tiles aren't simply thrown back up into space with everybody merely hoping that they still work, as he seems to suggest.
RETURN without GOSUB in line 1050
After the tragedy and severe setback of Columbia, NASA needs to show the world that astronauts are can-do type of people, who can repair an engine while the car is speeding down the highway.
Just for the heck of it, consider this:
Mission Control knows that the current situation is low-risk, maybe even a normal occurrence, and maybe in fact NASA has been quietly planning a PR coup for months. I mean, c'mon, they've been poring over Discovery with a pair of pliers and a microscope for a couple of years now.
Also, it's a given that today's media uncertainty will be Saturday's certain triumphant headline: "Daring Shuttle crew successfully repairs Discovery while in orbit!" And then again a few days later: "TOUCHDOWN!" Cue much applause, gushing commentary and optimism as we rush towards an uncertain future, with our heads up high.
I'd like to conclude by saying that I am not speculating in a cynical manner. In fact, I would applaud such a thing: we must not neglect human presence in outer space, it has always been a risky proposition, and a bit of showmanship can go a long way to make the public feel confident in supporting a Space Program.
Lil' Thindime, lilting a lacrimose lament, krashes the kwaint konfines of Kokonino Kounty
If you want to destroy my shuttle
Just pull this thread as I fly away
Ok maybe its just me, I know when I pull on my ceramic heat resistive threaded denim it just keeps coming. No Super Kitchen Shears to clip it to half inch?
OSGGFG - Open Source Gamers Guide to Free Games
I've got some dangling material on my belly. Any suggestions?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Elliott See plane(t-38) crash(along with Freeman)
Charles Bassett plane(t-38) crash
Theodore Freeman plane(t-38) crash (along with See)
Clifton Williams plane(t-38) crash
Virgil I. Grissom Apollo 1 fire
Ed White Apollo 1 fire
Roger B. Chaffee Apollo 1 fire
While each of these deaths was tragic I think it is misleading to group them into the same category. If you think about it, until Challenger the most dangerous vehicle for astronauts(as evidenced above) was the t-38 jet since it had been responsible for 4 deaths of active astronauts.
Nice one! You really got the rubes riled up with that one. The best trolls are the simplest and most believable.
Note to the gullible: no one really says "Let us pray" outside a church sermon. They say things like "Our prayers are with them," or "We should pray for them" instead. Every Christian knows how corny "Let us pray" sounds. YHBT. YHL. HAND.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
If you would have read my post, you would see that I said our entire military budget...not just the funding for the war in Iraq.
And if he does, he'll have to fill out a TPS report, right?
"An object declared as type _Bool is large enough to store the values 0 and 1." -- 6.1.2.5, C99 standard.
I will check for you (I know just who to check with to get the info) and get back to you, but I have to head out for a family funeral today, so it won't be right away.
i am a soviet space shuttle
But the parent poster can't even get the grammar correct in the title.
;)
Seeing how "American English" grew out of the misuse of "English English", I just find it funny when Americans complain about the misuse of a bastardised language.
Personally, I find the majority of language rules to be overly strict. Throughout history languages have evolved and will continue to do so, any attempt at trying to pin it down to a given ruleset is just unpossible
I think spaceflightnow.com is probably the best public source for this kind of space news.
.torrent?
But it irks me that subscription is required for access to video footage and images.
Don't get me wrong, I think spaceflightnow.com is one of those rare sites where their reporting "product" is good enough to pay for.
But as far as the video and images goes, I simply can't accept that this stuff should be locked away from free public access. MY tax dollars paid for NASA to have RocketCam mount these cameras on the shuttle. That footage belongs to me. Dammit.
So anyone have a
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Let's see how I can put this delicately...
That's the biggest load of horse shit I've read in a while. I wish he had mentioned Art Bell at the beginning so I could have avoided wasting my time.
nt
So, wishing death upon 7 astronaughts is a "good" thing? Who's the one spinning here?
That's right. All your base.
It dries on reentry when the heat shield warms up. Makes for a real nice "baked on" finish.
If you don't want crime to pay, let the government run it.
Interesting that there are caulking problems on vessels which don't travel on the water. (Almost said over water, but I guess they're over water most of the time, eh?)
.. paranoid crackpot leftover from the days of Amiga.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/1283 056.html?page=1&c=y/
What I suggest is a helium3 fusion reactor is built on the moon by telepresence (hands at a distance), part of the infrastructure would have to be transport. I would guess the helium3 would be in a different place (where the moon gets the most sunlight?) to the deuterium (the moon's poles?).
The first payload to the moon could be a fission reactor, coupled to a telepresence machine shop and a seed supply of raw materials. This would construct mobile mining technology and once the necessary minerals have been acquired the production of solar panels which would facilitate more distance travelled by the remote mining equipment. If it was done correctly it would grow exponentially
The Columbia tragedy shows that entering the earths atmosphere at 17,000 miles an hour in the equivalent of a flying brick is not a very good idea. De-orbitting space craft should be powered if reusable, otherwise we are stuck with the Russian method, crude but tried and tested.
The only way to have an economic and *safe* powered de-orbit method, is for rocket fuel to be manufactured in space, the obvious place for this is the moon.
We must manufacture the requisite materials for a biosphere in space before we send up wetware, all the right ingredients exist in space they just need assembling in the correct order.
We could send up wetware like this
http://www.orbital.com/SpaceLaunch/Pegasus/
One at a time please :)
It's called an elephant's trunk whereas it is in fact, an elephant's nose, a nose by any other name would smell as sweet
not sure if it was intentional, but nice choice of words. your scenario sounds like Asimov's classic "Foundation" series; now begins the systematic slide into barbarism.
That surprises me.
I thought that NASA engineers documented everything.
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
That they didn't know the depth of the material bothered me, and that was the answer I found.
You're right, it doesn't make sense. Do you know how high the paperwork on one tile stacks? They must know. Al they would have to do is use a new piece of filler, trim, and then measure what's left! You mean NASA, home of OCD, didn't?
This bothers me a lot now.
This sig seemed like a good idea at the time....
My thoughts: It's probably no big deal and they are just being extra careful.
I cried real tears when Li Mu Bai died.