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Australia's largest telco to be split

Pie Pants writes "Australia's largest telco company, Telstra, which is also half government-owned and controls most of the telecommunications network in Australia, is to be split into separate retail and wholesale arms. This means that the wholesale side of Telstra will have to sell the network to the retail side under the same terms it uses with other communications companies. The government has done this in a bid to improve communications service in regional Australia, so it can privatize the rest of the telco. This is a welcome move by many after Telstra was accused of taking advantage of its network against competitors."

126 comments

  1. About time by Relic · · Score: 4, Interesting

    About time this happened. From looking at other countries with a similar solution, this seems to open the broadband market wide open for end-users (referring to sweden, where my understanding is that things work in a similar way)

    1. Re:About time by dnoyeb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Privitization is just a money grab for the friends of politicians. You can bet they already know who will own the thing.

      If a government agency is doing a poor job, try doing what you would do in a private agency, fire somebody. Instead they 'fire' the whole agency.

      Municipal broadband seems to be terribly great in USA. So much so that the private companies are paying their last dollar to get laws to forbid it. The idea that government run agencies are poor is an old tired excuse that really shouldn't work on the people anymore.

      This does not mean I support what is going on in Russia either...

    2. Re:About time by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      "Privitization is just a money grab for the friends of politicians. You can bet they already know who will own the thing."

      The split is nothing new, it's just a formality for the sale. Telstra has been regulated to operate as wholesale/retail for many years by "competion laws" (they were dragged into competition kicking and screaming). I am more interested in who gets to spend the $3,000,000,000(AUD) "deal sweetner" and how is the taxpayer compensated for the loss of "universal access" benifits.

      In the case of the sale of the first half of Telstra the entire country was mass mailed a prospectus, mums and dads around the country invested for as little as $1000, it was the first time I had bought shares and I made ~$6000 out of the float. The litmus-test for this being a money/power grab is how they handle selling the second half. Will it stay scattered amoungst hundreds of thousands of small investors or will the sale give some media mogal a controlling intrest.

      Economic ideology dictates selling a fertile cow that still gives plenty of milk?

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    3. Re:About time by John+Hurliman · · Score: 1

      Government agencies are definitely not poor, with enough support in Congress they can have a near unlimited budget. It's the efficiency of a government agency versus a free market that comes in to question. See history for examples

    4. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      To get an idea of exactly how much market power Telstra has in Oz, even in 'new' (non voice and private data) markets just take a look at this report. The pie chart at the top of page 2 shows the company with >25% market share for Dedicated Internet Access, and most of the new challenging alternative carriers having only a few percent of the customers. Singtel itself is a PTT.... so much for de-regulation!

      (HERE) Link is a PDF, but only 150Kb

    5. Re:About time by timmarhy · · Score: 1

      you obviously don't live in australia do you. because if you did you'd be aware of the constant double standards between telstra's retail and what they deal out to everyone else. at one stage telstra were retailing ADSL for cheaper then they would sell the port to other isp's. how is that good for anyone? this was a move for the people, benifiting the community. fuck telstra and their profit grabs, they OWE the australian people this, we paid for all their inferstructure through all those years of tax dollars. and suck shit to Sol Trujillo, it wiped 2billion off your company. he was opposed to it (of course) , because he has no intrest in serving the australian people.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    6. Re:About time by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Now watch Telstra wholesale buy way over priced services from Telstra retail in lieu of actual payment of wholesale supply fees.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    7. Re:About time by dnoyeb · · Score: 1

      If you read my post you would have realized my recommendation would be to punish those in Telstra making the decisions the people disagree with. Because since its government run you can do that sorta thing.

      How is this different from the shareholders voting out a bad CEO? Except that in publicly held companies there is no 1 man 1 vote.

  2. Its a good thing! by dj245 · · Score: 1, Funny

    9 out of 10 crocodiles approve!

    --
    Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    1. Re:Its a good thing! by fbjon · · Score: 1

      The offending 10th one will be slaughtered for AIDS vaccine.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
  3. This will be contraproductive aswell by A+beautiful+mind · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've seen it happen in my native country, Hungary, when a monopoly telecommunication company was split up this way.

    The ISP arm ends up swallowing loss and unfavorable conditions while milking the consumers, and passes the revenue to the telco arm. This makes competition have a very hard time and the government ends up shrugging. Do not have a false sense of success just yet, dear australians. This won't work and your government knows that.

    --
    It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
    Be yourself no matter what they say
    1. Re:This will be contraproductive aswell by A+beautiful+mind · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One of the examples i forgot to mention is for example about the sale of traffic.

      The ISP arm ended up paying the telco arm after traffic, not after bandwith, which means they are basically not losing anything since it's between two arms of the same company, but it will force other companies to do the same in the immediate future instead of paying after bandwidth.

      --
      It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
      Be yourself no matter what they say
    2. Re:This will be contraproductive aswell by bobtodd · · Score: 2, Informative

      This won't work and your government knows that.

      I take your points, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. We have a Competition and Consumer Commission, which while not perfect, will be all over the split Telstra, not to mention an increasing number of smaller ISPs and telcos who will scream blue murder if any such thing takes place. A large number of people in the local industry have been chasing this result for years.

      It wouldn't be beyond this government to try a sly act like you suggest, but Australia is a different environment.

    3. Re:This will be contraproductive aswell by Coeurderoy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It happened the same way in France, they "split" France Telecom (Operator) and Wanadoo (ISP), and since although they are supposed to be different companies they are not really. (same schools originally, same teams, and of course same "investors"). So now "big news" FT is reintegrating Wanadoo (with probably a name change). And yes rural broadband is a problem.

    4. Re:This will be contraproductive aswell by dancallaghan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The kind of split they are considering for Telstra is into two separate wholesale and retail arms (similar to what has been done with BT, as I understand). This is important, because at present Telstra sells its services to end users, but also rents out space in its telephone exchanges for other providers to host their equipment -- except the wholesale prices Telstra charge are sometimes so high as to prevent other providers from competing against Telstra's retail products (which is, coincidentally, in the best interests of the company as a whole and its 51% private owners). The point of the split is to prevent [accusations of] such anti-competitiveness in future.

    5. Re:This will be contraproductive aswell by stor · · Score: 1

      I've never understood why they don't suck up the wholesale/telco arm into the government and let the consumer arm be 100% private.

      That way, the government sets the wholesale price, provides infrastructure (thus *will* provide telecommunications in regional areas), levels the playing field for companies needing to lease infrastructure and makes a tidy sum of cash.

      Then again our government is the pinnacle of laziness, beaurocracy, elitist arrogance and inefficiency so perhaps it's better private.

      Cheers
      Stor

      --
      "Yeah well there's a lot of stuff that should be, but isn't"
    6. Re:This will be contraproductive aswell by ockegheim · · Score: 1

      Interesting... so it looks like any half-hearted split won't work in the long term. My money's on a half-hearted split if there is one.

      --
      I’m old enough to remember 16K of memory being described as “whopping”
    7. Re:This will be contraproductive aswell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Back you up on that. Ive worked for France Telecom R&D and Wanadoo and Orange are both basically treated as arms of FT. The R&D dept basically targets applications/patents/solutions for FT, wanadoo and orange. I worked on projects targeted at Wanadoo.

      Being a AC just in case.

  4. Dear Aussies by speights_pride! · · Score: 4, Funny

    Please also inform the New Zealand Government about this plan. Although in our case the monopolistic Telco would be better split into about one million pieces. Thanks.

    1. Re:Dear Aussies by WindBourne · · Score: 1
      Although in our case the monopolistic Telco would be better split into about one million pieces

      So, you are suggesting that you should a million companies that support just 4 ppl each? You have seen the dumb joke about PROFIT here, yes?

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  5. Re:Australia has telcos? by GFree · · Score: 2, Funny

    Guess what? We've even got ELECTRICITY down here too!

  6. Unfortunately that's it by QuantumG · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They telco will not be broken up into regional companies and forced to compete with one another. Of course the billions of dollars the government receives from the sale won't be going into my pocket or the pocket of any other Australians who have supported it through taxes all these many years. The money will most likely go into the national surplus where it will stay. This, apparently, has some positive effect on the reduction of interest rates. Which has been shown to be a major contributing factor to get the home owners of Australia to re-elect the current government.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
    1. Re:Unfortunately that's it by TooTrueTroubs · · Score: 1

      And no-one seems to get that high interest rates aren't such a bad thing. If you're saving money - it's great! On the other hand if you've got enough credit cards to create your own suit - which apparently is most of us these days - then you probably won't enjoy it much.

    2. Re:Unfortunately that's it by pbjones · · Score: 1

      not one cent of taxpayers money has been used by Telstra, In a couple of cases there have been BILLIONS of dollars handed to the Government, get the FACTS!

      --
      There was an unknown error in the submission.
    3. Re:Unfortunately that's it by Frogbert · · Score: 1

      Excuse me? I assume all those phone lines were there when we colonised the place? Are you saying it wasn't my parents taxes that paid for those lines to go in?

    4. Re:Unfortunately that's it by thegrassyknowl · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This, apparently, has some positive effect on the reduction of interest rates.

      How unfortunate for those of us who earn well above the average salary.. and are looking for our first home. I am expected to pay rent _and_ save 5% of the price of a house over 6 months in order to qualify for a loan... and all that while paying an enormous amount of rent because the price of the house we're in went up exponentially.

      Problem is that house prices here have gone up by well over 50% in the last 5 years while salaries have risen by less than 10% in the same time. The rise in house prices has been driven by the continually low interest rates (and a govt that wants to get reelected), and complete blanket of fucked "home improvement" shows that say "rip up the carpet, paint a wall red, put a fountain in and add $50k to the price of your house". Of course, everyone went out and did that.

      Prices here are far over inflated; you need 2 good incomes, no children, no life and rich parents to afford anything that isn't in some grotty ghetto.

      Back on topic: I was really hoping that the government would split the shitbox telco up into retail and wholesale (yay I got what I wanted). I was also hoping that the government would hold onto wholesale, drop the prices (it's not as expensive to run as the idiots in Telstra try and claim in their search for infinite profits) and force telstra retail to compete.

      I don't want to see this massive piece if infrastructure privatised; once that happens, there are no controls on what they will charge, and everyone has to pay it!

      --
      I drink to make other people interesting!
    5. Re:Unfortunately that's it by Stiff · · Score: 1

      Actually money does flow the other way through things like HiBIS. http://www.telinfo.gov.au/HiBIS%20page.htm

    6. Re:Unfortunately that's it by Frogbert · · Score: 1

      You do realise that if you hold out for another year or so this housing bubble is going to burst hardcore? I mean there is no way these prices will hold, right now the best way to describe the housing market is tulipomania.

    7. Re:Unfortunately that's it by orin · · Score: 1

      Frogbert has it right. Sit tight. The Australian property market is like Doctoms before the bust. You also don't need interest rate movement to pop the bubble - rising petrol prices mean that many of the people in marginal financial situations in these capital city periphery housing developments are already up the creek. There are going to be a lot of McMansions for sale soon as people realize that regardless of interest rate movement, increasing fuel costs are going to bust their budget.

    8. Re:Unfortunately that's it by natd · · Score: 1
      Prices here are far over inflated; you need 2 good incomes, no children, no life and rich parents to afford anything that isn't in some grotty ghetto.

      No, I complained for a few years about that too. In 2002 I discovered that it is all crap. You save what you can, get a personal loan from Westpac for the rest you need to show and apply to the NAB for the mortgage.

      I now have 3 mortgages in Sydney based on my own salary which, as you say, has barely changed since 2000. My parents haven't a cent to give me so don't think I got any help.

      I am pretty pissed that it took me untill age 28 to see that the banks allow you to pull the wool over their eyes.

      Honestly, that's the way to go, and once you have one place, you can keep rolling.

      --
      Only big ligs use sigs.
    9. Re:Unfortunately that's it by cakesy · · Score: 1

      Hah, what a joke. I moved to Edinburgh from Australia, you try to paying rent here for a while. 300 pounds to share a two bedroom apartment, in a shitty building. Plus 100 pounds council tax every bloody month. Of course, everything else you say I agree with, but don't talk about Oz being expensive.

    10. Re:Unfortunately that's it by Macfox · · Score: 1

      Yes rent is expensive there. But the wages are far highier. It's a scale of economy thing.

      Then if you want to compare the tax system differences, it's really trying to compare oranges with apples.

      --
      Area51 - We are watching...
    11. Re:Unfortunately that's it by Macfox · · Score: 1

      The bubble is already bursting. The latest Sydney trends are showing a fall in prices and it's likely to trickle through to the others cities, just like the rise did.

      You'll hear plenty of agents telling you otherwise. My favourite agent comment, "prices never fall drastically... holding out won't save you much". Yet "never before in history has housing costs gone up so sharply". Anything is possible.

      The market is slowing rapidly. Just look for the signs.... In the average mailbox... how many of those Agent free home evals do you get each week? The work is drying up for them...

      Sit tight!

      --
      Area51 - We are watching...
    12. Re:Unfortunately that's it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you're mortaged to the eyeballs with %2.5 equity.

      Enjoy it while it lasts, when rates hit 10% again and you need to cough up $7,000 a month repayments on your 3 houses which have taken a 30% dive in value I hope you reflect on this as you sit in your tent eating cold baked beans in the caravan park.

    13. Re:Unfortunately that's it by thegrassyknowl · · Score: 1

      I can attest that the bubble is bursting. On my way to work I see at least a dozen "For Sale" signs, and it's only a 10 minute drive. On my way to pick up my son in the evening I see another 10, and that's only a 5 minute drive.

      Problem is, the bubble has burst. I agree, rising petrol (mainly) and the general rise in energy costs (gas, electricity, etc) over the last few years has pushed most people over the razor's financial edge that they were teetering on.

      Banks haven't helped. They've become only to happy to over-extend people's financial capacity with things like crazy honeymoon fixed 5 year rates. When your fixed term is up, you're balanced on a delicate razor's edge, and things like food start to become a luxury.

      But, I thought this was a thread about Evil-T, not housing prices. You should go and read the Whirlpool (http://www.whirlpool.net.au/ forums some time. Recently, in the Internode (and probably others) forum has been a pile of discussion about how Telstra Wholesale is abusing their position to get people to sign up to BigPong DSL.

      They seem quite happy to repeatedly reject your application with another ISP, but when you apply to BigPong they are quite happy to sign you up, remove technology blockers, find alternate paths, etc. Of course, once they have you locked into BigPong (thus proving that ADSL is, in fact, available) on a 24 month contract they laugh all the way to the bank.

      This is why Telstra Wholesale should be completely separated from Telstra Retail. Telstra Retail should be subject to the same red tape and beaurocratic bullshit that other carriers are subjected to.

      --
      I drink to make other people interesting!
    14. Re:Unfortunately that's it by thogard · · Score: 1

      Telstra is using HiBIS to knock out wireless ISPs. In real rural areas there is no way to get backhaul except Telstra so they are end up getting most of the HiBIS money anyway. It would have been better for everyone if that program didn't exist.

    15. Re:Unfortunately that's it by pbjones · · Score: 1

      Yep, from the earliest times the telecommuncations side of the PMG, then Telecom, then Telstra ran at a profit and financed the expansion of the network, and consistantly returned money to the Government. Taxpayer funded telecommunications in Oz is a Myth. In fact almost every rural service is run at a loss, the cost of providing the service and the links to the rest of the network is rarely recovered from the phone charges. A ballpark figure for just the cost of wire from the switch to the rural phone is ~AU$4000 per customer, not counting the cost of the switch, power, transmission equipment etc, the worst I know of was $40,000 per phone, (on a 128 cusomer system) the customers only payed the maximum $1500 each.

      --
      There was an unknown error in the submission.
  7. Good for the people, not so great for the govt. by TooTrueTroubs · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This move toward privatisation is something I'll never understand.

    Australia has plenty of 3rd paty telcos at the moment. Not enough to cause the wide-scale state-to-state confusion that apparently pervades the US, but enough to provide choice if you want it.

    While the idea of creating a wholesale and retail arm will hopefully provide better service for the 3rd party telcos (Telstra owns most of the broadband backbone here) it still mystifies me as to why the goverment would divest itself of an organisation that actually makes a profit, particularly since in doing so they pretty much guarantee rural services will run into problems as soon as no-one's watching.

    1. Re:Good for the people, not so great for the govt. by benna · · Score: 1

      Because Telstra sucks as a service.

      --
      "It is not how things are in the world that is mystical, but that it exists." -Ludwig Wittgenstein
    2. Re:Good for the people, not so great for the govt. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TooTrueTroubs wrote:
      ...it still mystifies me as to why the goverment would divest itself of an organisation that actually makes a profit, particularly since in doing so they pretty much guarantee rural services will run into problems as soon as no-one's watching.

      They should really have split Telstra into wholesale and retail divisions from the start, and privatised only the retail arm. Therefore, we would have ended up with a deregulated market, while keeping the infrastructure in Government hands so that rural services are not compromised.

    3. Re:Good for the people, not so great for the govt. by thogard · · Score: 1

      What 3rd party telcos? In the landline field can you name 3?

      Remember a telco will have a phone swtich, not just resell Telstra services.

  8. Its a poor option by matt21811 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The Australian government would do better to keep the wholesale part of the business and sell the retail part. Forcing Telstra to divide itself only internally will lead to a situation where they can sacrafice the retail sales but make a killing on the monopoly wholesale business. Screwing customers for all they can. Once the compay is in private hands there will be little the government can do about it.

    1. Re:Its a poor option by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      There are regulations in place to stop the monopoly on the wholesale side of things.

      The real issue is that Telstra can favour its retail arm by providing for example quicker activations on ADSL accounts than it provides to other 3rd party vendors.

      This is a known fact through out the industry but little action can be taken. When the Telstra Retail has the same rules applied to it as every other vendor the field should be levelled thus ensuring (hopefully) more competition.

    2. Re:Its a poor option by jonwil · · Score: 1

      I can vouch for that, I know of someone who "couldnt" get ADSL with a 3rd party but Telstra Bigpond said they could.

    3. Re:Its a poor option by Namarrgon · · Score: 2, Interesting
      They're already screwing their wholesale customers by taking full advantage of their wholesale monopoly, right now. A split can only help that.

      Currently their wholesale connection fee alone is higher than their retail ISP's monthly plan. They still make money overall, but any competing ISP is already running at a loss, even before bandwidth, maintenance, staff costs etc. Splitting off the retail side will prevent them from hiding their costs, and force the wholesale side to deal equally with competitor ISPs.

      The wholesale side is still subject to ACCC pricing regulations, private or not.

      --
      Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
    4. Re:Its a poor option by the_unknown_soldier · · Score: 1

      The problem is that without infrastructure Telstra isn't worth 10billion: let alone $40. You can't win 2 elections on a mandate of selling telstra and then just not sell it.

    5. Re:Its a poor option by Sajarak · · Score: 1

      This option was considered, but dismissed by both the government and the opposition after a parliamentary inquiry in 2003.

      It would be interesting to know why the current plan is more efficient, if not for more cynical reason of raking in a few billion to bribe voters in marginal electorates with when all of the infrastructure is sold off...

    6. Re:Its a poor option by hawaiian717 · · Score: 1
      Currently their wholesale connection fee alone is higher than their retail ISP's monthly plan.

      Verizon does the same thing in the US. I know of one ISP that actually tells its users that it's cheaper to go directly to Verizon than go through them (though they'll still accept people that want to pay more, and for business customers who want a static IP, they're still cheaper). Verizon offers 3.0/768 at $29.95/month, and charges $37.50/month to connect you to a different ISP.

      --
      End of Line.
  9. For those in other countries... by BlackMesaLabs · · Score: 3, Informative

    Telstra (Internet division: Bigpond) has a reputation here as a cumbersome, inneffectual and generally crappy ISP. The service is shoddy & slow, the tech support takes hours to connect and technicians are worse than monkeys
    (one told me that 384Mb ram wasnt enough for cable and that 30 metres of pristine cat5 could lose ~60mbit in throughput, despite the fact that the theoretical limit of my cable was 10mbit)

    Anyway, a good british comparison would be BT and an american one could be AOL (maybe comcast)

    1. Re:For those in other countries... by mcbridematt · · Score: 1

      Did anyone mention that they only talked about offering retail and wholesale DSL speeds above 1.5mbps when smaller compeditors started investing in DSLAMs?

    2. Re:For those in other countries... by kbw · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Mmm, as I thought, another monolithic monster who probably own the local loop. Sometimes the large old Crock needs to be removed from the pond for the good of everyone.

      British Telecom have been fighting tooth and nail not to be broken up with considerable success, although they've finally agreed to give up the local loop. (They did loose Cellnet->O2 as they've found they paid too much for the G3 license.) In the mean time, I believe they've deferred the UK's adoption of broadband by about 7 years by killing off fledgling broadband ISPs with their Gold Room policy.

    3. Re:For those in other countries... by maw · · Score: 1
      Anyway, a good british comparison would be BT and an american one could be AOL (maybe comcast)

      There's really no good American comparison. The old American telephone monopoly was split up when things were very different (the internet wasn't particularly important at the time), and split up rather differently in any case.

      --
      You're a suburbanite.
  10. Re:Australia has telcos? by A+beautiful+mind · · Score: 0

    That's weird.

    I thought electrons go the other way around too down there...

    I kid, i kid...

    --
    It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
    Be yourself no matter what they say
  11. Not just Australia's largest Telco by crusty_architect · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Telstra is also Australia's largest company, full stop. This move has reduced the value of the company by some $2 Billion AUD prior to a full sale. Not good for shareholders. Ultimately, not good for customers.

    1. Re:Not just Australia's largest Telco by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Please explain why the loss in value of a company will be detrimental to customers? Will it not make the company work harder? Does the company with a higher value provide better service? Where is the logic?

    2. Re:Not just Australia's largest Telco by cameldrv · · Score: 2, Informative

      Perhaps this is because investors presume that Telstra's lessened ability to exploit its monopoly position will result in less profits, due to increased competition. Unless the businesses are much less efficient in providing services as separate entities, those reduced profits will be directly seen as reduced prices. How is it bad for consumers if prices go down due to competition?

  12. Hang on... it is going to be split? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    If Telstra is going to be split, that's wonderful news and what I've wanted all along.

    It does not look like today's news stories agree with this statement, however.

  13. Read the article by nobbin · · Score: 4, Informative

    I thought this sounded like too bid a news story to not have heard about.
    Read the article. It doesnt say it will be split, it talks about rumors that a split might have been approved by the *cabinet*, that means the bill probably hasn't even been written yet, even if you assume that the rumour is true.
    Thats not to say it wont happen at some time in the future, but at the moment its just speculation, and the title of the story is grossly misleading

    1. Re:Read the article by kfg · · Score: 0

      Read the article.

      Now that's just crazy talk.

      KFG

    2. Re:Read the article by ginji · · Score: 1

      http://www.minister.dcita.gov.au/media/media_relea ses/connect_australia_-_a_plan_to_future_proof_tel ecommunications

      "Telstra will be required to maintain separate retail, wholesale and network business units and to publish internal contracts setting out non-price terms and conditions. The model for operational separation was developed on expert advice in consultation with Telstra and the ACCC. The details of price equivalence arrangements under this model will be determined though a working group under the Minister's direction."

      Straight from the Minister's website, not that's an indication for anything.

  14. Re:Wow! Yet ANOTHER story from Australia! by dcrawshaw · · Score: 1

    There are a lot of Australians on the internet. It's a result of something Aussies used to call the tyranny of distance.

    d

  15. Obvious solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The breaking up of Telstra's wholesale and retail arms has been proposed by various groups and individuals for years. Provided the terms & conditions of the contracts allowing access to the wholesale arm are transparent, and that the powers of the ACCC to investigate are improved, this solves the principal problems with the full privatisation of Telstra.

    Having said that, it would be preferable for the Govt to retain certain parts of the network infrastructe in regional areas where such provision is unprofitable. That after all is one of the roles of the state - to correct areas where there is a market failure!

    The sad thing is that for years the Govt has said this was impossible and couldn't be done. That was complete crap then - and lo and behold now the Coalition has theoretical control of the Senate they can make it happen. At least it appeases the "rebel" Senators.

    As for Peter Costello's "you can't be half pregnant" (a statement referring to the half ownership of Telstra by the AU Government) perhaps Disco Pete should use condoms when he decides to screw the country!

    1. Re:Obvious solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Splitting Telstra will hurry up the death of regional telecommunications, just like regional airports, and regional banks, and regional medical services, and solve nothing. Lots of 'market failures' in .au. Parts of the USA have digital backwaters too. After being burnt on infrastructure fibre rollouts, that mistake is unlikely to be repeated anywhere. The have-nots will remain have-nots, and pay long distance, while city counterparts suck on cheap voip and broadband.

      Notably, ACCC has failed to disclose wholesale prices, in a way that really promotes competition. Why does a fixed line rental cost $29 a month( no calls included) in au vs $5 stateside?

      In a game of brinkmanship, Telstra preferred the split, rather than provide ACCC with real numbers, and 4 billion is a small price to pay for deregulation. In other matters, it is real easy to cross-subsidise ISP operations by cheap loans, without guarantees, and performance bonuses, bundling etc.

      Be sure that the .au govt will do nothing too rash to devalue the final sale price, or let price transparency work. You can bet wholesale price spreads will increase, and country telco services frozen. Just look at water or electricity privatision price rises of late. Nice of the bumpkins to sell out their electorates, if it goes ahead.

  16. Good move by lamasquerade · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I am very happy that this is finally going to happen, now we'll see Bigpond (Telstra's ISP) compete evenly with other providers. Maybe bigpond will even join WAIX, Western Australia's peering network, and other similar organisations around Aus.

    It's a pity that the price of this move is the just about definite sell-off of that remaining government stake in Telstra. The sale is going through because the Gov got a majority in the senate at the last election (first time sice the late 70s) so they can push it through now. But this in turn means they have to placate their coalition partners, the Nationals, who only care about Telstra services to the bush being at parity with the city - i.e. heavily subsidised. So we finally get the Telstra split to allay fears of Telstra pricing getting out of control without the Gov holding them back. I would have like the split+maintaining Gov control. Actually there was a plan floated I believe which would sell off some parts - such as the ISP side of things, but keep infrastructure and wholesale under Gov control - the best of both worlds I think.

    Of course it's all going now in the final stage of Uncle Howard's Great Fire Sale where all the nation's assets get sold off for short term gain.

    --

    // It had been Fat's delusion for years that he could help people. --Philip K. Dick, Valis

    1. Re:Good move by bernywork · · Score: 1

      Not going to happen, where Telstra does peer with ISPs, Telstra's BGP setup makes their data flow within it's own network.

      Unless they change this policy, then peering with peer points such as WAIX it's not going to matter.

      --
      Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat. -- Author unknown
  17. The Facts: by narkotix · · Score: 1

    Why this means good things for us aussies? It means that it also opens the book up for smaller providers to buy services from the wholesale provider, which in previous times has been pretty hopeless with telstra setting inflated prices and restrictive clauses with the installation of equipment and charging of services while maintaining an artificial pricing structure. Telstra retail will have to compete with optus, iinet, internode, etc etc on the same grounds. If wholesale does retail "favours", the ACCC will hone in on this and keep telstra in check.

    --
    We played dungeons and dragons for 3 hours.....then i was slain by an elf
  18. where is my money? by pbjones · · Score: 1

    The story is speculation and only time will tell.

    The 'Network' used to belong to the people of Australia, maintained by Telstra, now the people of Australia has had their network sold for them and we see nothing. Bah! You either have open playing field or nothing, by inposing conditions on Telstra that are not the same for competitors means that Telstra is stuffed, the government has sided with big business and not with people.

    --
    There was an unknown error in the submission.
  19. Re:Wow! Yet ANOTHER story from Australia! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's the time. Look at the clock, it's about 5:09 EST right now... in Australia, it's what, 5:09 PM? (At least in one of the timezones) Perfect time for them, and who in the US should be up anyway? Except for me. Damn Alaska time.

  20. Re:Wow! Yet ANOTHER story from Australia! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm just loving www.slashdot.org.au!

    As I read your post I wonder how many aussie /. readers will now try to see if that domain exists?

    In fact maybe Telstra will now map their ISP users to it to save on international bandwidth costs!

  21. Government has No business being in business ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How can you honestly regulate an entire industry (or technology) when you own the largest "competitor" in that market?

  22. Re:Australia has telcos? by michaeldot · · Score: 0

    Yes, Australia has discovered electricity. But it goes slower in Queensland, and is positively glacial in Canberra.

    Which, coincidentally, is the speed of Telstra Broadband.

  23. Damn, Its about Time by Admiral+Trigger+Happ · · Score: 1

    We have been calling for this for Donkeys Now, all they need to do is reduce their prices so people will actually use Telstra

    --
    Admiral Trigger Happy
  24. Re:Wow! Yet ANOTHER story from Australia! by Neo-Rio-101 · · Score: 0

    Yes, apparently there are other countries on Earth besides the USA and Australia.

    It's too bad that you'll probably be too scared to visit those other countries without an army and an colonial occupation first - after which you force everyone to speak American English.

    Yes, I'm from Australia and I've been to the USA, and that comment gets me riled. Congratulations. You've earned it.

    --
    READY.
    PRINT ""+-0
  25. New Zealand by daliman · · Score: 2, Informative

    With a bit of luck, they'll follow your lead over here. Telecom has improved a lot over the last year or so, perhaps in an attempt to head them off, but the prices here are still over the top.

  26. Been waiting for years by unlabeledchick · · Score: 1

    Telstra and the government have been talking about this for several years, so either 1) It will happen very soon or 2)We will be waiting another decade before this actually happens. The National party (not even the shadow cabinet) is trying to get some Telstra services for those who live in remote regions, but last I heard, they weren't doing very well. As far as I see it, most people (especially those in 'power') don't take them very seriously.

  27. The share price droped because.. by Admiral+Trigger+Happ · · Score: 1

    No wonder the share price is doing so poorly, Telstra's service is CRAP!!!! Well, they have good GSM coverage (I use it on Three's Roaming) but its too expensive. Their other services are ok, but they charge way too much. They need to be split, and the government needs to keep the wholesale arm, and sell the retail arm.

    --
    Admiral Trigger Happy
  28. And it's about time too... by samj · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've been advocating this for years, but thought it was too late after the first share offering (T1) back in 1997 (after all, who wants a telco services company when you can own the infrastructure). A handful of us made a quick buck out of it, but those who participated in the second round (T2) weren't so lucky.

    Aside from owning the copper (an extremely valuable asset, especially given the relatively low population density in Australia), Telstra provide a range of services - most notably mobiles (MobileNet) and Internet (BigPond, or as I prefer, LittlePuddle) and perhaps the most important of which is ADSL (both wholesale and retail). The issue they are addressing here is leveling the playing field, which would not have been necessary were it not for antics like selling (previously flaky, unreliable) ADSL retail cheaper than wholesale! (One could also speculate that the regular, extended outages were related to sustaining the golden goose (ISDN)).

    And then there's the issue of their core competency: phone lines. In March 2000 we were paying $11.65 a month for line rental and something like 25c for untimed local calls. Now your average punter's paying the best part of 30 bucks a month for line rental and a bit less for locals. There's a bunch of capped call plans and other fluff but we're effectively paying a lot more for a service which (thanks to mobiles) we are using a lot less. Plenty of us were using the lines for Internet services and paying for an expensive, unnecessary dialtone.

    This is where Australia really could have led the way - were this done properly all carriers (including the hypothetical Telstra retail/services division) would have had access to the copper for the same reasonable price (ideally inside $10/month) and could have offered combined voice/data services, and made a profit, for less than what we're paying now for line rental alone. As a bonus our essential infrastructure would not have ended up strapped to a bloated services company in a volatile market.

    Still, it never ceases to amaze me that they've managed to sell us back something we already own, set the industry back a good 5 years while doubling or even tripling the cost of communications for your average Aussie in the process. It's like the Coca Cola company working out we'd pay more for water than we do for Coke itself!

    1. Re:And it's about time too... by ockegheim · · Score: 1
      One could also speculate that the regular, extended outages were related to sustaining the golden goose (ISDN)

      ISDN was unbelievably overpriced. Get the customer to do their own A/D and D/A conversion, and make them pay a massive premium.

      --
      I’m old enough to remember 16K of memory being described as “whopping”
  29. More than just a rumour by Namarrgon · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The split is not final yet, not all details have been hammered out, and things could still change in the future. But this reform has been in the works for a long time, and has backing at many levels of government (if not Telstra itself).

    The language used is pretty firm about it. The Australian doesn't generally report rumours, they stick to the facts.

    --
    Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
  30. Re: This will be counterproductive as well by hattig · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It seems to have worked in the UK however. It isn't ideal, but apparently broadband coverage is 97% of the population. Unbundling lines isn't working great, but the system has been changed recently and should mean higher uptake in the future.

    Gas and Electricity are done in the same way over here, with a wholesale network provider, and the service providers all use the same (pipelines|grid) to supply power, with their own billing structure and extras on top.

    This method does mean that there is still no competition in the wholesale area, then again I'd prefer that to 2 or 3 times the number of electricity pylons and/or roadworks!

  31. Here's more examples of why this is needed by Namarrgon · · Score: 1
    Hopefully, removing BigPond's unfair advantage might force them to lift their game, and avoid problems like this.

    No longer will they be able to attract customers just by hiding their costs in their wholesale arm. They'll actually have to provide decent service and reliability for a change (BigPond has consistently rated bottom of the heap in customer service surveys - which they of course deny).

    --
    Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
  32. Re: This will be counterproductive as well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    UK's population density is somewhat higher than France's (and both are uncomparable to Australia, of course)

    The problem in France with rural access is now becoming more a problem of /unbundled/ access rather than access at all. FT, for all the blame it deserves, is making good progress towards covering the whole population (in good part thanks to the money alternative unbundled ISPs are helping it make...), which means everyone but the usual unlucky 2%.

  33. Re:Australia has telcos? by Stauf · · Score: 2, Insightful
    As an Internet professional, I know the safest computer is a computer not connected to the Internet in any way.

    That's why I recommend Telstra Broadband.



    (apologies to whoever I, uhhh, borrowed that from)

  34. new meme?? by psychgeek · · Score: 0

    Hey heeeey... is it just me, or does anyone else smell a candidate for the next /. meme?

  35. Telco and Star Wars over the horizon radar network by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    http://www.rlmsystems.com.au/proj_jorn.aspx Jindalee Operational Radar Network (JORN) One of the more interesting Australian telco projects.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  36. Nothing to do with regional service by polysylabic+psudonym · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Actually, this has nothing to do with improving regional service, or as we put it "service in the bush".

    It only has to do with the current Australian Government's policy of selling off all public assets and giving the proceeds to the companies you've sold said assets to.

    Yep, you read right. In an effort to convince people that they're going to improve service in the bush, our lovely Aussie government is talking about using the proceeds of the sale to pay Telstra (that's the telco in question) to provide a service to the bush. How's that for a deal!

    Anyway, we Australians now have no say in this, Australia is no longer a democracy.

    1. Re:Nothing to do with regional service by kubrick · · Score: 1

      Yep, you read right. In an effort to convince people that they're going to improve service in the bush, our lovely Aussie government is talking about using the proceeds of the sale to pay Telstra (that's the telco in question) to provide a service to the bush. How's that for a deal!

      It'll drive up the initial share price for the last 51%, which is all the Government cares about. If they can get more back through the sale than they're spending now, they're happy. Screws the rest of the companies out there that are actually doing a decent job in the field, though...

      --
      deus does not exist but if he does
  37. Re:Slashdot is too Australia Centric by thelamecamel · · Score: 1

    We have a new government, the Liberals (a misnomer - they're the equivalent to the Republicans) who have control of both houses of parliament (which has only happened once before to any party). This is a free pass to do whatever they want for the next three years, short of changing the constitution. Our Governor-General (read: powerless president) was appointed by the current Prime Minister.

    Already, after a week with control of our senate, they are giving the opposition the finger. That is why there is news coming out of Australia. These three years will be fun...

  38. Shhhh! by ockegheim · · Score: 1

    Don't mention to this ideological right-wing government that an astute leftie from way back (Kenneth Davidson of The Age) suggested this years ago, of course suggesting that the wholesale arm should remain owned by the government.

    Telstra has been abusing its monopoly for years, charging ISPs more for wholesale services than it charges retail. Alas the chance of getting some clear, visionary thought (ie past the next election) from this government is depressingly low.

    --
    I’m old enough to remember 16K of memory being described as “whopping”
  39. Welcome? by Kaorimoch · · Score: 1

    "This is a welcome move by many after Telstra was accused of taking advantage of its network against competitors."

    Telstra has been accused of taking advantage of its competitors when the first one appeared! Funny how owning and running the infrastructure AND being able to decide on the price to access the infrastructure makes people squeamish.

    And may I also add that this plan has been discussed for so many years I look at the news article and still don't believe it. Lets see what Telstra's "Dirty Tricks" department has to combat this one.

  40. Re:Slightly OT - please drop cultural cringe by stor · · Score: 0

    We're a self-deprecating society. We take pleasure in making fun of ourselves and putting ourselves down.

    Haven't you ever been to Australia? Come down! Come to Melbourne in November/December/Jan, when it's (usually) nice and warm. The other states have nicer weather but we have nicer people ;)

    Cheers
    Stor

    --
    "Yeah well there's a lot of stuff that should be, but isn't"
  41. Re:Slightly OT - please drop cultural cringe by craznar · · Score: 1

    Australia delights in self deprecation, the same way the US delights in self grandeur.

    Get used to it folks - the two Kangaroos I live with got used to it last night.

    --
    EMail: 0110001101100010010000000110001101110010 0110000101111010011011100110000101110010 0010111001100011011011110110
  42. Telstra is a joke by timbo234 · · Score: 1

    Typical of monpolies everywhere, wether goverment owned or private, Telstra is an absolute joke. They provide poor quality products and absolutely shit service at premium prices. All while using their monoply control over infrastructure to try and unfairly squeeze out competitors who actually manage to provide a worthwhile service at a more reasonable price.

    They've single handedly held back the IT industry in Australia for years with their incredibly backward and stingy policies towards broadband and data limits.

    --
    Pre-canned Evolution Links for all those Slashdot holy wars.
  43. Re: privatization isn't the answer by unionsibling · · Score: 1

    Indeed. In Canada, the telco had always been a government-regulated monopoly. And you heard all the complains I'm reading now.

    Then they deregulated and slowly split up Bell until we arrived at a situation where we have a private, largely deregulated series of companies that exploit their control over the phone network to squish competition, especially in broadband.

    They boost local phone rates (another monopoly area) to the point where poor people can't afford phones because they now have to compete with gazillions of long distance carriers and need to get money from somewhere.

    Meanwhile, all this competition is slowly causing companies to leave the field or go out of business. Our two biggest cell phone companies have now merged, for example.

    It's all leading back toward a monopoly again only this time it'll be totally deregulated and the company will control your landline, your cell, your internet and your TV.

    Doesn't that just sound great.

  44. Re:Wow! Yet ANOTHER story from Australia! by ockegheim · · Score: 1

    The USA/Canada, Britain/Europe and Australia are each about a third of the way round the world from each other, so Slashdot submissions from each country would spike at different times during the day.

    And there's plenty interesting stuff going on in Australia, especially if you think Telstra is eeeevil!

    --
    I’m old enough to remember 16K of memory being described as “whopping”
  45. Telco company by RaeF · · Score: 0, Redundant

    By definition, a telco is a telephone or telecommunications company. So a telco company would be a telecommunications company company. Sort of like the PPP protocol or an ATM machine.

  46. Finally a step in the right direction by shplorb · · Score: 1

    Splitting Telstra into infrastructure wholesaling and service retailing companies is what I and many others have been advocating for years. Last year, the government made some progress towards this by ordering Telstra to separate their accounting. This is another step in that direction, however it doesn't go far enough.

    This week Telstra announced a $4.5 billion profit, whilst the new yankee CEO had the audacity to demand the government a) chip in $5 billion to fix up the network and b) threaten to reduce spending on the network if they don't reduce regulations on them.

    That $5 billion or more needs to urgently be spent to bring the network up to scratch is a slamming indictment on the former CEO, Ziggy Switkowski (who was forced out earlier this year). That man singlehandled pissed billions of Telstra dollars down the drain on stupid overseas ventures and buyouts of media companies. He sacked Telstra technicians and R&D people and reduced spending on network maintenance and upgrading. (One classic result of that being the sealant blunder - they thought they were getting a great deal on a sealant, but because they'd sacked all their R&D people they didn't trial it and later found out the sealant was destroying the lines and ended up spending more than double what they paid for the sealant to fix the problem!) Rather than re-investing the profits into ensuring the future success of the company, they spent it executive bonuses, shareholder dividends and share buybacks to prop up their share price. All the while, small upstart carriers have been slowly chipping away at them.

    People like me could see the madness of Ziggy's ways, but the government denied there was a problem or impending crisis and even re-appointed him! (Telstra 'loaning' giant plasma screen TV's to key government ministers probably helped.) Telstra have also consistently played dirty to prevent competitors gaining a foothold in the market. (The best one is "we can't let you into the exchange to install your own equipment because we've lost the keys to it") History has shown that they simply cannot be trusted to maintain the national network - an asset paid for by the Australian tax-payer that is vital to national security.

    It is overwhelmingly in the public interest to retain the local loop and back-haul in public ownership as a statutory body. Carriers would then be free to rent space in exchanges for their own equipment, rent local loops and rent back-haul or install their own. Profits from this would then be used to maintain and upgrade the local loop.

    But of course, that runs counter to the Liberal's zealous privatisation ideology. I'm from South Australia and I know that privatisation of public utilities has delivered nothing more than decreased reliability and increased prices as companies cut back on maintenance to bump up profits. Public utility infrastructure should be publicly owned because it is for the benefit of all society and remote locations need to be cross-subsidised. It shouldn't make a profit, just enough to cover the cost of maintenance, upgrades and expansion.

  47. Multiple telcos? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Feel lucky to have multiple telcos. South Africa has a single telco that is milking the people they are meant to serve (profits in excess of ~R8b/~$1.5b per year since listing). Essentially, they have been running as a private business with government protection from competition allowing huge profits while shedding jobs by the thousand and reducing access to telecoms services for the majority. Go to www.hellkom.co.za for info. Bitter is not the word.

  48. Telstra Australia Split !? Digital Nation next? by dezb · · Score: 1

    It's been a long time coming, but finally it looks like Telstra will be split in two very seperate companies.

    One to provide Wholesale Telecoms and the other to provide Retail Telecoms services.

    This is so horribly over due!

    We may be on the verge, finally, of seeing some real competition in the Australian teleco market place.

    Telstra naturally are not very happy about what is now an approved [by cabinet] package, which will force them [Telstra] to create seperage network and retail divisions, with separate premises and management but under the same company structure.

    If all goes to plan, the government (coalition) could steamroll ahead and sell its majority share holding ( 51.8 per cent stake ) in Telstra before the end of next year. Something which has been high on the governments agenda for some time now.

    Sure that's going to make them a truck load of money, it's (the sale of 51.8% of Telstra is a lot of share value) going to do that no matter how you look at it.

    What does all this mean for Australia?

    Well we could perhaps look just accross the Tasman to the windy city of Wellington, in New Zealand, for an example of just what a completely deregulated teleco marketplace can do if you allow it.

    Businesses and individual end users in Wellington, can gain access to Data and Voice services that the rest of the world ( except perhaps for Singapore with their Interent Corridor ) dreams of.

    With 10 megabit and 100 megabit, and even gigabit connections for tens or hundreds of dollars a month, zero data usage charges, and peering for one and all if you want it, Wellington has shown that a completely deregulated telecommunications industry can work, and will work, if you allow it to.

    We won't in the near future, say the next five years even, see the likes of what NZ has been able to achieve here in Australia, well not from what I can see gazing into my crystal ball anyway, as there's a legacy culture to be left behind before we can see Australia make major leaps forward.

    I'm hoping that with Telstra now having to form a legitimate Wholesale arm, freed up and allowed to sell outside of it's previous one and only customer, being Telstra itself ( oh and the occasional carrier and ISP when they had time of course ), Telstra Wholesale may be allowed to sell core services at prices that would allow 3rd party providers, in particular the DSL providers, or the Broadband market at least, provide now ADSL 2+ services of 22 megabit speeds, throughout the country at prices equal to what we now pay for 1.5 megabit links.

    What does the general media have to report? Here's a few links for further homework on the topic:

    Let's hope that with new management, and a sense of responsibility to the nation, the new Telstra's can both give back a little of what they have so easily come by, and finally deliver on the government's Digital Nation promise.

    More to come on the temp home of Dez's Blog at http://mosman.no-ip.com

    --
    --- Dez Blanchfield http://WebSearch.COM.AU "Will work for bandwidth.."
  49. Oh God by eno2001 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Australians should be very concerned about what's going to happen to their phone service. Back in the 80s, we had the Bell Telephone company split up into RBOCs (regional bell operating companies). What used to be the Bell Telephone Service became Ohio Bell where I lived. That eventually became Ameritech and then SBC. Through all of these changes, the quality of service continued to drop. The territorial wars increased between RBOCs and newer upstarts trying to get into the telco biz. Where we used to have a national business with shining R&D output (Thank Bell for Unix and Plan 9), and impecable quality of both product and service, we now have a bunch of useless small companies that refuse to cooperate with each other to server customers properly. We have mildly varying rates (save $1.00 or $2.00 a month by "chosing" your telco) with very few options for alternative services because of the territory wars.

    In the house I bought last year, I found a tag on the ground strap for the phone line that was probably put there in the 50s. It harkened back to a day when things were more organized and orderly because there was little room for doing things differently. The tag was essentially a threat that said you MUST NOT remove the ground strap and if it is accidentally cut or loosened, you MUST call the phone company to get it replaced or reattached. Those were the good old days. The problem today is one of "too many chefs". The chefs need to be sent back to R&D where they belong and only the best ideas should be put forward for production. This is why Bell Telephone service was exccelent compared to the mire of crappy phone companies we have now. Not to mention the addition of people who know nothing about phone service providing phone service thanks to VoIP. Deregulation is a bad thing. It destroys carefully controlled systems that MUST be carefully controlled. Just because there is a new or cool idea out there doesn't mean it should make it to production in a short period of time. That's why phone service in the U.S. is so friggin bad. Our entire infrastructure is essentially partially in beta. The only things that do work properly and reliably are the older systems that were put in place before the deregulation.

    Be afraid. Be VERY afraid.

    --
    -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
    1. Re:Oh God by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      The breakup of AT&T was only effective for long distance - and look how cheap that is now, if you shop around. Unfortunately, that breakup left intact lots of smaller monopolies, who still have captive customers with no real choice. As far as territory wars - I have never seen a single shread of evidence that any ILEC ever competed with another ILEC in the same area - try getting service from Verizon while living in an SBC area, or vice versa (*wired* service, that is, I understand competition is thriving in the wireless market)

      The only way real competition (where companies have to actually do their best to keep customers) for local wired phone service would ever flourish would be exactly what Australia us doing - seperate the monopoly telco from the wires in the ground and heavily regulate the organization that has the wires, forcing them to be fair to all comers, allowing the wires to be used by any provider of service without letting the monopoly company gouge them (if they let them use it at all)

      http://isp-planet.com/politics/2002/structural_sep aration.html

      If you truly are a consumer of phone service (and not a shill for an incumbent) then you truly dont understand whats holding back better service and prices.

    2. Re:Oh God by eno2001 · · Score: 1

      Actually, where I live (Northeastern Ohio) we had our choice of SBC or a lesser known option Corecomm. Corecomm provided wired phone service and I actually had it for a while. It was about $4.00 cheaper than SBC. However, they also were my ISP and they stole my e-mail address and gave it to another customer. The phone service wasn't any better than SBC and I just didn't see the value in saving $4.00 a month only as long as I subscribed to their dial up ISP service. Their normal prices were only $1.00 cheaper. So where is the value in that?

      Long distance is a huge mess in the US. You have so many choices that complicate matters when trying to make a selection. The prices vary by just a few cents a minute here or there. The service quality ranges from total shit to mediocre. They pretty much rape you just as badly as the Bell monopoly did but in different ways. The customer service across the board is horrible. The games they play to get you to switch not to mention the obnoxious telemarketing that they engage in is outrageous. Fortunately I have very little need for long distance, so I don't have any. It makes my phone bill just as cheap as some of the VoIP offerings to leave off LD access. But when I do need it, I have to go through the thoroughly annoying 1010xxx crap. I don't like paying fees for things I don't use, so I can't justify ANY LD service being on my line since they all bite you in the ass. I don't think deregulation helped. It just took a stable system that would have eventually have come down in price and replaced it with a totally unstable system that forces people to know things they shouldn't have to know in order to shop around. If you want long distance, it should be part of your telephone service with no charge unless you use it. Even $.01 a month is too expensive for LD if you don't use it.

      --
      -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
    3. Re:Oh God by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      Corecomm was/is certainly a CLEC, and was providing you service over SBC-owned copper. Thats the act of 1996. But trust me SBC was sharing that copper only begrudgingly, and dragged their feet as much as possible.

      Long distance in the US is a thriving competitive market - rates very greatly - if you dial 1-plus on a line that isnt subscribed, you can pay over 95c a minute. Or you can shop around and get 4c or less a minute, or with some plans, unlimited for zip. The 1010 codes are an option - you can always choose to subscribe your dial-1 service on your standard wired line to a specific provider. Yes, there are some less scrupulous providers - but the point is, you *have* a choice - in fact you have a lot of them. Before the AT&T breakup - you had no choice - you got AT&T, period. And perhaps you werent old enough to remember, but it was expensive as hell. Surely never approaching 4/c minute, or god forbid an unlimited plan.

      And if you can get regular wired phone service for $20/mo, then either its thru a CLEC, or its through the ILEC, but the only reason you can get it is becuase of the competition from the CLECs, which the incumbents would love to kill off. Try going to an area thats not served by any competitive providers - you'll pay closer to $50/mo for that line, and thats without any callerID, waiting, voicemail, etc.

      And while you make very little "long distance", others make a lot - each customer should be able to choose the type of plan that works for them - some happen to like paying a flat $20 to never have to worry about 'the meter running'. Why do you accept paying even $20/month for local calls, when you'd be charged that even if you made no calls?

      Personally I feel the concept of measured 'long distance' should be abolished, and all calls should be considered 'local', and you pay a flat monthly. charge. I guess effectively most VoIP plans do that (and they do it for less than many ILEC's charge for basic local service, yet still manage to include voicemail, callerID, call waiting, 3-way calling, and some features such as call filters that are unheard of from the old carriers)

      Anyway, if you've been raped by long distance providers then maybe you just arent a savvy enough customer to make the right choice for you - but be happy you have choices. If there were no choices, the monopoly carrier would rape you anyway, and you wouldnt be able to switch to another. If the monopoly carrier is the best choice for you, so be it - but consider that if they are able to offer those rates when they have to compete with other providers, and dont have 100% of the market - why werent they offering them when they did have 100% of the market?

  50. Re:Wow! Yet ANOTHER story from Australia! by Marbleless · · Score: 1

    Naw, we just talk a lot. After all, why do you think kangaroos hop everywhere? We've already talked to legs off them :)

    --
    --I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
  51. Re: privatization isn't the answer by Guspaz · · Score: 1

    Except the bleak picture you paint doesn't really exist, does it? Bell is forced by the CRTC (Canadian version of the FCC) to share their lines with other ISPs for a regulated price. This has lead to good competition as dozens of smaller ISP offer DSL service at equivalent or even lower prices than Bell. Bell is also required to offer dry loops, even for other ISPs.

    So, you can get a dry loop with a DSL ISP of your choice and not subscribe to a single Bell service. That's not a monopoly.

    Local phone service couldn't be further from a monopoly. You can get local phone service from Bell. Or you can get local phone service from Videotron, the local cable co. Or you can get local phone service from Vonage. Or any other VOIP provider. And of course there are all the POTS-based local telephone service companies that lease Bell's lines, like DSL ISPs do. Primus, for instance, offers local service for $30/mth.

    Man, the picture you paint is a bleak one of monopolies as far as the eye can see, but it just isn't true.

    Cellular service is something I'll admit doesn't have as much competition as it could. There is only Rogers and Bell with distinct networks, if I recall correctly. Fido is owned by Rogers, and Telus and Virgin Mobile both use Bell's network. Still, it's not a monopoly, and it's not even an oligopoly. The two camps DO compete, and there are widely divergent price plans even within networks; compare Virgin Mobile's hybrid monthly-but-still-pay-as-you-go service to Bell's monthly service and you'd be hard pressed to figure out they're the same network by looking at their pricing info.

    The australian solution is actually interesting. It is like our solution, except it's as if Bell Nexxia had to sell Bell Canada the lines at the same price they sold them to everyone else (imagining that they weren't both owned by the same company). This would totally level the playing field in that every DSL ISP would have the same base pricing. On the other hand, it would mean that the wholesale provider (Bell Nexxia in my example) would still try to charge as much as possible for the wholesale lines because they wouldn't care about how well Bell Canada did anymore.

  52. Re: This will be counterproductive as well by Coeurderoy · · Score: 1

    97% of the population covered means that about 50% of the rural areas are NOT covered. In addition you might want to look at the relative coverage of various offerings. Where do you have 25Mb/s, 8Mb/s, 1Mb/s, 128kb/s (also called "broadband" by France Telecom in small cities) ? And you will notice that the Internet Geography has a direct influence on the economical geography and housing prices.

  53. Misuse of Public funds by Macfox · · Score: 1

    This is terrible news. Once again the media has been distracted by the issues of services in the bush, when the real issue is quietly forgotten about.

    The reality is we're being scammed.

    What isn't made clear to the masses, is we have a semi private entity set to get approximately 3 billion dollars of public funds, to expand a soon to be privatised network.

    Yes the funds are available to other companies, but if the HiBiS scheme is anything to go by, Tel$tra will get a big slice of it.

    We paid for the infrastructure once (with taxes) and now we're expected to pay for it again, while shovelling another 3 billion in to sweeten the deal.

    The fact that it's being separated is irrelevant. The opportunity to keep the infrastructure in public hands is a great loss to the people.

    The worst part is that the Australian government has the majority share of Tel$tra, but can't even control it. Line rental is going through the roof and Telstra's anti-competitive behaviour against smaller broadband players is killing off the only alternatives we have. That's that state now... What hope do we have once it's fully private.

    And what is to happen to all the proceeds from the full sale of Tel$tra? Nothing has been said! Will history repeat itself and deliver the public timely election sweetener deals.

    Once again the Australian Government screws the public in favour of big business. Yet it will be all forgotten come election time. Perhaps another "baby overboard" scare or some timely terrorist/security threats will distract the public again. Thanks for nothing Johnny.

    --
    Area51 - We are watching...
    1. Re:Misuse of Public funds by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      This is a wet dream for individuals and you are griping about it. This is exactly what I'd love to see in the US - the Incumbent bells seperated from their monopoly control over the existing wired infrastructure that was paid for by captive customers under their guaranteed monopoly status, so that it is available on an equal basis to many service providers (of dialtone, internet, whatever), who can them compete on even footings. Unfortunately, it seems like the US FCC is going the other way here, which will kill off any chance competition had before it even got off the ground.

      http://isp-planet.com/politics/2002/structural_sep aration.html

    2. Re:Misuse of Public funds by Macfox · · Score: 1

      Where do you think this split idea was born. You've already lived the wet dream, except you found the sexy girl at the bar was really a man.

      We Australian's are so blind. We witnessed the creation of the baby bells only to repeat the same mistakes.

      If you read the detail, you will find the seperation is only internal. It's not a full division of assets, products and revenue streams. Tel$tra are still one company, only the internal secret dealing between Bigpond and Telstra wholesale will now be public.
        Unfortunately nothing will stop them from running the retail arm at a loss and have the wholesale arm recouple these loses from third party wholesale customers.

      --
      Area51 - We are watching...
    3. Re:Misuse of Public funds by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      Already lived? Which incumbent RBOC/ILEC in the US was ever forced to seperate themselves into one company providing only copper loops, and one providing dialtone/switched services, with the one with the copper required to provide access to that copper to all companies providing switched services on an equal basis?

      If you are talking about the AT&T breakup, it never required that - all it did was eliminate the long distance monopoly (and we are reaping the benefit of that today - long distance service in the US is now so competitive you can even get it for free under certain conditions), and it created a bunch of new smaller geaographic monopolies for local wired service - eg, it didnt go far enough - the new 'RBOCs' still had/have captive customers for their basic local wired service - the 1996 act helped a little, and the ILEC(RBOC)s have done everything they could to dodge the requirements of that, and are now using lobbyists to kill the few parts of that that might enable true competition someday - the new comers should *NOT* have to build their own entire copper plant from house to house - the existing plant should not belong to the incumbents - yes, they built it, but only with cash from captive customers they had exclusive access to via government-granted monopolies. The copper plants in the ground should either be owned by all, by the government, or at the very least a neutral organization that is *not* allowed to provide switched services.

      I read an article by an RBOC shill that whinged that the old copper plant sucked - if thats the case then why do the RBOC's still fight to the very last for exclusive control over it? Becuase they know that in the current market with the current technology, the copper plant is the key to getting enough customers (again, this is all about wired telco service, none of this applies to wireless/sattelite/etc) to be competitive to ever hope to have a chance to be able to 'innovate' the new technologies - and they want to ensure that they have exclusive monopoly control over those too.

    4. Re:Misuse of Public funds by Macfox · · Score: 1

      Thanks...I stand corrected on the US situation.

      The Tel$tra breakup is not so much a split of copper and dialtone/switched services, but rather a retail and wholesale breakup. Telstra already wholesales copper/dialtone/switched services, but currently give much better pricing to it's own retail divisions. Hence the split is about evening up the playing field for all retailers, even Telstra's own retail arm.

      Rob

      --
      Area51 - We are watching...
  54. Re:Slightly OT - please drop cultural cringe by fido_dogstoyevsky · · Score: 1

    We're a self-deprecating society. We take pleasure in making fun of ourselves and putting ourselves down.

    Haven't you ever been to Australia? Come down! Come to Melbourne in November/December/Jan, when it's (usually) nice and warm. The other states have nicer weather but we have nicer people ;)


    And if you do, make sure you're here for the first Tuesday in November - public holiday for a horse race (we DO have some priorities right).

    --
    It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
  55. The selling of state owned investments.. by kn0tw0rk · · Score: 0

    has been done before, with office buildings that the australian public service occupy. They were previously owned by the government, but we sold to property management business that now rent them back to the government.

    It is a way of generating lots of revenue for the govt of the day, which makes them look good when comparing budget spending to previous governments.

    But the stupid electorate here don't seem to give a shit about that. Only how much they'll get from the 'baby bonus' for sprogging out more wage slaves /rant off

    --
    See my art -> http://herbevore.deviantart.com
  56. What's new? :-\ by Splintax · · Score: 1

    I don't actually understand what's new about this... speaking as an Australian:

    First of all, the plans to privatise Telstra have been around for AGES and this is certainly nothing new.

    Secondly and perhaps more notably, I thought that the telco was already split into wholesale/retail. At least, there is currently a wholesale and retail website, which are presumably registered and separate businesses...:

    Completely different as far as I can see...