Slashdot Mirror


Cost of Secrecy Continues to Increase

xerid writes "The Associated Press is running an article about the increasing costs of government secrecy. The information stems from a report (PDF Warning) posted at OpenTheGovernment.org. From the article: 'The government is withholding more information than ever from the public and expanding ways of shrouding data. Last year, federal agencies spent a record $148 creating and storing new secrets for each $1 spent declassifying old secrets, a coalition of watchdog groups reported Saturday. That's a $28 jump from 2003 when $120 was spent to keep secrets for every $1 spent revealing them.'"

213 comments

  1. Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    $148! I can't believe the government spent that little on anything.

    1. Re:Wow by moonbender · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's kind of an odd figure to give. Bucks spent for keeping secrets relative per bucks spent declassifying them. A higher number, as has developed, could be caused by more secrets being kept, a higher cost associated with keeping them. (Both is probably happening.) Or it could be caused by fewer old secrets being declassified, or declassifying getting cheaper. Not sure if any of that is the case.
      The figure also doesn't really give any indication if the total number of secrets is rising (ie more new secrets than declassifieds) because keeping a secret certainly is more expensive than declassifying one. But how much more expensive, I don't know.

      Like I said, kind of an odd figure to give.

      --
      Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
    2. Re:Wow by Greeger · · Score: 2

      The cost of not keeping secrets is always going to be less. The government doesn't have to actively try to hide information that is already officially public information. The high cost of the classified information could be from all the measures that the government takes to secure its information. And let's not forget the rising price of gas.

    3. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Article IV, Section I of the United States' Constitution:

      Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

    4. Re:Wow by slashname3 · · Score: 1

      You are right, it is an odd figure. Actually is a silly figure. The two have nothing to do with each other. This is the same as quoting some statistics to prove some irrelevant point. The numbers don't really mean anything, the write seems to be implying some kind of evil agenda. So is this a bad thing or good thing?

    5. Re:Wow by Mr+Z · · Score: 3, Informative

      The number is meaningless by itself, but meaningful relative to other measurements of the same quantity. If you RTFA, they do also give absolutes, in terms of number of classified and declassified documents.

      This ratio is just an attempt at a "single figure of merit," that, like so many other benchmark numbers, is not meaningful relative to anything other than other computed values of that metric.

      --Joe
    6. Re:Wow by digitalchinky · · Score: 3, Funny

      So now you Americans are paying 148 bucks for black marker pens at the rate of one per document : )

      Over on this side of the world (Australia) we're still paying $10,000 per hammer, so I guess it's all relative given exchange rates and all...

    7. Re:Wow by machinegunhand · · Score: 1

      That works out to be about $130 per secret.

    8. Re:Wow by PunkOfLinux · · Score: 1

      The price of gas really DOES affect everything; I'm SO glad I don't have to fill the tank.

      The government, as always, will not tell us squat. Plain and simple

    9. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how about comparing the small cost of keeping a secret to the large cost of a catastrophe because the wrong people got it.

    10. Re:Wow by Arker · · Score: 1

      More likely is the large cost of keeping a secret because bad things happen more often when we're kept in the dark. Particularly about what our government is doing.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    11. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But how much more expensive, I don't know.

      That's because it's a secret....

      Got clue?

  2. Increased cost by BWJones · · Score: 5, Interesting

    OK, here is the deal. Keeping secrets is simple for one reason: You have to fact check each new bit of classified information with a whole database of older information in order to decide whether or not something has bearing. It is often easier to simply start classifying everything that *might* have some bearing on national security than it is to actually go looking all of the time. So, what we are left with is an increasingly chaotic and poorly indexed "database" of national security "secrets" that are costing the taxpayer more and more to maintain and data mine. The problem of over exuberance with classification of documents is simply that costs of declassification to preserve history start spiraling out of control.

    The thing that absolutely amazed me has been investigating my Grandfathers history. Many of his records going back to WWII are still classified and it was only a few years ago that he had certain medals delivered to his family after the declassification of other records. Of course it is likely that they do not have any real bearing on todays issues, and nobody likely checks them anymore against new issues, but the amount of history that is being kept away from American citizens is stunning. I am not saying that declassification is easy. Quite the contrary, it takes skilled analysis to sit down and go through documents line by line and word for word while retaining a comprehensive knowledge of current and past events that may or may not have bearing on the request.

    --
    Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
    1. Re:Increased cost by Eminence · · Score: 1

      But there is surely some point in time beyond which further secrecy about past events is pointles?

    2. Re:Increased cost by SnowZero · · Score: 1

      Well it depends; Some WWII stuff would be fine to release after 1945, while some other things would have to wait until the end of the Cold War. The latter was of indeterminate length right up until the end, making a purely time-based declassification difficult. Reviewing something for release takes a substantial effort since you have to figure out again why something was classified in the first place, and you don't want to make a mistake.

      Something that might help is to label classified information with a short list of reasons or keywords. Some examples could be: "Important to keep from Germans during the war" or "Cannot be revealed to Soviet Union". If we tended to use fairly stock phrases, we could simply evaluate those to determine when things get released. With the obvious caching effects this shouldn't be that hard.

    3. Re:Increased cost by sd_diamond · · Score: 2, Interesting

      OK, here is the deal. Keeping secrets is simple for one reason: You have to fact check each new bit of classified information with a whole database of older information in order to decide whether or not something has bearing. It is often easier to simply start classifying everything that *might* have some bearing on national security than it is to actually go looking all of the time.

      Actually, it's more accurate to say that it seems easier. You're right that this perception is what often drives over-enthusiastic security classification of data, but the truth is that those doing it don't consider all of the peripheral costs associated with their decision. Dealing with classified data and classified projects is not only a pain in the ass, but is much more expensive than working in an unclassified domain. Only people with an appropriate clearance level can even look at the data, and that means costly and time-consuming investigations and Clearance paperwork if you want to bring on new hires. All hardcopies must be stored in a safe or vault approved for Classified data, and maintained by people trained and qualified to manage it. Classified electronic data can only be stored on computers specially modified and approved for Classified -- and those computers can only be kept in Classified vaults. Not to mention the fact that all communications and correspondence containing Classified information must travel through appropriately secured channels. The list goes on...

    4. Re:Increased cost by computechnica · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The AWACS(AOCP)code I work on is stored on a classified mainframe. Not all of it has anything classified in it but because it is on the mainframe with classified code it will never be released in any way. We still have a couple of old green screen terminals but mostly use PCs with terminal emulators.

    5. Re:Increased cost by Sanat · · Score: 1

      The record center in St. Louis caught fire back in the 70's and many records were destroyed especially from soldiers in WWII.

      It burned and smouldered for several days as records were still in paper form at the time.

      good luck on your search

      --
      And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make
    6. Re:Increased cost by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      How long something is classified can also depend upon how big the F**k up was, combine that with legal and fiscal liabilaties and some things that should be in the public interest are kept buried. Old saying, secrets kill, it hasn't changed.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    7. Re:Increased cost by BWJones · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I found this out last time I was in St. Louis and it scared me. I was able to confirm that his records were indeed present, but could not get to them yet.

      Thanks for the feedback though. Every little bit helps.

      --
      Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
    8. Re:Increased cost by Analogy+Man · · Score: 2
      In many instances secret=embarassing/politically damaging. With the exception of the Manhattan project what could still be tactically or strategically damaging?

      Democracy dies in the dark! The current administration held the tightest control of information BEFORE 9/11/01. Senate and congressional aids from both parties commented that requests for information to the White House were completely ignored. Prior admistrations since Truman would respond in days and if the answer would require more time, a memo to that effect was typically sent within a week. I remember in the summer of 2001 Republican congressman hearing nothing after repeated requests over months. I can't imagine how tight the reign is on information now!

      The Carter administration set a record back in the late '70's declassifying documents. One of the first thing Reagan did when elected was to reclassify many of them...I would guess it was more to eliminate the embarrasing rather than a matter of national security.

      --
      When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
    9. Re:Increased cost by torpor · · Score: 1

      With the exception of the Manhattan project what could still be tactically or strategically damaging?

      Corruption. Crime. Stuff like the Franklin affair, where masses of government officials were involved in child sex rings.

      These things need to be made secret in order to protect National Security. Acts which may prompt widespread civil disturbance are classified .. Civil War is a threat to National Security, so in fact .. it is legal for grand fuckups to be covered up by the U.S. federal government ..

      --
      ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
    10. Re:Increased cost by Rolo+Tomasi · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Sounds fishy. It's probably just a trick to keep you from claiming your granfather's rightfully deserved Nazi treasures.

      --
      Did you know you can fertilize your lawn with used motor oil?
    11. Re:Increased cost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The single largest deciding factor in the declassification of secrets is, when the last person who gives a damn about the secret dies, then it can be released (once your sure they're all dead) because at that point it doesn't matter anymore. So for example the secrets being declassified right now as per the money in/money out ratio given here are probably related to some fling some Sumerian King had during some vacation and they were classified then and left classified until now when the last scholar who bothered to learn ancient sumerian died, now they release the secret (in ancient sumerian of course).

    12. Re:Increased cost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in the DC area, and though I'm not a spy, I have heard of anohter reason so many secret documents have been created.

      Apparently, certain government agencies have thier own e-mail (like) system to handle classified documents. One of the problems they're having is when one person receives a classified document on this system and attaches any new information regardless of wheither or not the new information should be classified, the new document gets classified at the same level. Thus creating yet another classified document to keep secret. As more and more secret documents are passed around, more secret documents are created in a seamingly endless cycle.

      I don't know if this information is really classified, but just to be safe, I'm posting anonymously.

  3. Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by krelyk · · Score: 0, Troll

    I hope people will wake up and realize what a bad mistake it was to elect Bush... twice!@!@$

    1. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by Umbral+Blot · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Wow, clinton was impeached. Thats news to me.

    2. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      No no, the people only elected Bush once. Katherine Harris elected him the first time.

    3. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by cerelib · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, he was impeached.

    4. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Clinton was impeached, which is to accuse, but not removed from office.

    5. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you even from the U.S.? Clinton wasn't impeached.

    6. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by tsotha · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I hope people will wake up and realize not every 60-year-problem is Bush's fault.

      If you ever work with classified data you'll realize it's almost impossible to get something declassified, since nobody wants to be the one who releases data that turns out to help an enemy launch the next Pearl Harbor or 9/11 attack. When you're a civil servant, the key to advancing is to not do anything that hurts your career, as opposed to businessmen (and to some extent, military) who advance their careers by doing something.

      Also, not classifying sensitive data is a career-ending mistake, while over-classifying unimportant data is, well, nothing that will ever get you into trouble. Who's gonna know? So when in doubt you always err on the side of extra security.

      Sometime in the '80s they made a change to the rules where if you classified something you had to put a date upon which the item becomes declassified automatically. Unfortunately, there's warehouses full of classified data dating back to the second world war (think Raiders of the Lost Ark here) that nobody has the time to look at, so it will never be declassified.

      I suspect most of the old stuff will eventually be destroyed for lack of money, which is a shame from the historical perspective.

    7. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by demachina · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "since nobody wants to be the one who releases data that turns out to help an enemy launch the next Pearl Harbor or 9/11 attack"

      I don't think any leaked classified data made any contribution to Pearl Harbor or 9/11 though it is clever on your part to invoke those two traumas to win points for your argument.

      In fact much of the "suprise" part of the "suprise attack" on Pearl Harbor was due to the high classification of Japanese communication intercepts which led to the many signals the Japanese were preparing an attack from being acted on.

      There were certainly some strong indicators an attack at Pearl Harbor was imminent. It has created the long running conspiracy theory that FDR actually knew it was coming and wanted a devastating "sneak attack" so he could get a nation that was isolationist and pacifist mobilized for war. Weather it was FDR's intention or not it did work. Pearl Harbor propelled the U.S. into World War II with an enthusiasm that wouldn't have been there otherwise.

      9/11 is not quite as clear cut, but it is clear a "classified" briefing in W.'s daily intelligence brief spelled out the danger of Al Qaeda launching an attack on the U.S. using airplanes while W. was on vacation in August and the attack came in September. All indications are the brief went unheeded and no action was taken. Little George apparently didn't for example tell the FBI to look in to this, because if they had they might have "connected the dots" that suspicious Arab men were training in the U.S. to fly airliners, a fact they knew but which had been sat on if not classified.

      It is unavoidable that you do have to classify a lot of information in a world where you have enemies, especially ones intent on spying on you like the U.S.S.R, Russia, China and Israel.

      But, a case can be made that classification causes as much harm as good since it destroys effective communication, WITHIN the government not just between the government and its people especially when it tilts of of control and delves in to excess.

      Unfortunately classification is CONSTANTLY abused by people in government to conceal their failures and the failure of the government to do its job, and worse to hide some of its malevolent schemes. It's also integral in a government's creation of a false picture of the world in the minds of the population in order to manipulate them. Classification and propaganda go hand in hand.

      A great example of out of control classification is the huge section of the congressional report on 9/11 in which the role of the Saudi people and government in 9/11 was spelled out in excruciating and embarrassing detail. Its hard to say why it was classified, most of the Congressman don't want it classifed. One guess is the Bush administration didn't want to embarrass their close personal friends in the House of Saud. The other is the Bush administration was engaged in weaving a propaganda web intent on connecting Iraq to 9/11 as an excuse for regime change and war, and 100 pages spelling out the Saudi's were in fact vastly more involved than Iraq would have been counterproductive to that propaganda effort.

      A mostly forgotten case of classified data being released which exposed government malevolence and incompetence is the Pentagon Papers. Depending on your viewpoint this giant leak either exposed the bankruptcy of the American involvement in Vietnam and ended a misguidede war there, or their leak help collapse American resolve and contributed to its defeat there. Whichever it was, it was a high beam of truth about the reality of the situation there that classification would have suppressed were it not for Daniel Elsberg and his conscience.

      --
      @de_machina
    8. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um...we didn't impeach Clinton...

      But, congrats on the insightful rating. You are indeed quite the sage of our time - just not of a about 5 years ago.

    9. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by Garwulf · · Score: 1

      There's a bit more to those things as well. I've always been amazed at how much history is shaped by human beings buggering up, rather than plans going smoothly.

      In the case of Pearl Harbour, it was never meant by the Japanese to be a surprise attack. It was supposed to begin half an hour after the declaration of war was delivered to the United States. Unfortunately, the actual declaration was classified to a point where only the highest level diplomats could be allowed to decode and translate it - and they couldn't type. So, by the time the declaration of war was actually ready to be delivered, the attack had been going on for half an hour.

      Then there's 9/11 - imagine what would have happened if the CIA and the FBI hadn't been in the middle of a proverbial pissing match at the time, and the information about the upcoming attack had been passed on. Actually, it gets even worse - there is a bit of legislation that actually forbids the FBI and the CIA from working closely with one another, to prevent the two from launching a coup (I don't remember under which President that was - I think it might have been Ford).

      Gotta love human error, eh?

      --
      Robert B. Marks
      Author, Demonsbane in Diablo Archive
    10. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our beloved PATRIOT Act removes most restrictions regarding "cooperation" between our various intelligence agencies.

      All hail the Intelligence Czar!

    11. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by quarkscat · · Score: 1

      I would like to preface my response to your statement with the ascertion that I DID NOT
      vote to elect Bush ... TWICE! Nor, even, ONCE.

      The American people did not elect Bush twice, either. Due to voter disenfranchisement in a number of states (including Florida), a Florida law that prohibited a state-wide vote recount (which violated due process), and ineffective legal council on behalf of Bush's opponent, it was the US Supreme Court that voted George Walker Bush president, not the USA's citizens nor the Electoral College in 2000.

      George Walker Bush has aptly demonstrated that (1) fetal alcohol syndrome IS REAL, (2) nepotism and monied interests trump "natural selection" in the vetting of qualified political candidates, (3) that the "Peter Principle" is also applies to political office, and (4) a lie repeated often enough really CAN be mistaken for the truth.

      Bush's popularity as POTUS (President Of The United States) only increased AFTER the terrorist acts committed on 9/11/2001. GW Bush has been very busy since that time capitalizing on "wrapping himself in the flag" for a series of political agendas that are not only contrarian, but also antithetical to conservative values.

      IMHO, history will eventually correct your (widely accepted) conclusion that the American people actually voted for Bush's "re-election" in 2004, once the breadth of voter disenfranchisement and vote fraud (electronic voting machines), and buying the silence of the major news organizations from a multi-billion dollar slush fund stolen from Iraqi war reconstruction funds are revealed.

      Please do not blame me for the Bush presidency, which has been highlighted by one disaster after another.

    12. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by demachina · · Score: 1

      "there is a bit of legislation that actually forbids the FBI and the CIA from working closely with one another, to prevent the two from launching a coup (I don't remember under which President that was - I think it might have been Ford)."

      Its was mostly thanks to J. Edgar Hoover, LBJ, Richard Nixon and a series of CIA fuck ups in the 60's and 70's. The CIA was being used to spy on Americans, intervene in American domestic affairs, and play dirty tricks on political opponents of those in power, not to mention all the crackpot schemes they hatched in places like Cuba. Most of the abuses that were Watergate were perpetrated by people affiliated one way or another with the CIA. The Church Committee in particular resulted in a major reining in of the CIA and domestic spying. It was a Democrat led effort and the Republican's, especially the hard right, have been pissed about it ever since. Luckily for them all those restrictions are now gone thanks to the Patriot Act and the National Intelligence Reform Act which created a unified all seeing spy agency which is ripe for abuse by those in power.

      All people hear about these days is about how those firewalls led to the failure to stop 9/11 well chances are it didn't. If you think removing them is a good idea you should read the Church reports and remember the massive abuse the CIA and FBI were engaging in before they were enacted. Those who fail to learn their history are doomed to repeat it. If you want to experience what life was like in the U.S.S.R with the KGB you really want a unified spying agency and domestic law enforcement agency with no restrictons on what they can do to American citizens in America.

      "imagine what would have happened if the CIA and the FBI hadn't been in the middle of a proverbial pissing match at the time, and the information about the upcoming attack had been passed on"

      Probably very little would have changed. The Republicans just wanted to con everyone in to thinking it would have made a difference because they wanted to get the Church restrictions removed, something they've wanted since they were passed in 1973. It worked. The information the FBI has on 9/11, mostly Arabs at flight schools, didn't even get through the channels in the FBI, it had no chance of going to the CIA. About the only thing that might have helped if the CIA had flagged a couple of the hijackers to the FBI when they entered the U.S. and if the FBI had followed up on it which is a big if.

      --
      @de_machina
    13. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by martyn+s · · Score: 1

      Actually, Bush was elected zero times. Katherine Harris elected him the first time, and Diebold elected him the second time.

    14. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by krelyk · · Score: 0

      amen sir... I didn't vote for him either... but apparently some people did... I will never understand their thought process.

    15. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by tsotha · · Score: 1
      I don't think any leaked classified data made any contribution to Pearl Harbor or 9/11 though it is clever on your part to invoke those two traumas to win points for your argument.

      I'm not trying to "win points" for anything. I'm just trying to address a bureaucratic mindset. I never said the classification system had anything to do with either tragedy, and I didn't mean to imply it either. The point I was trying to make is while over-classifying data doesn't make sense from the country's perspective, from the low-level bureaucrat's perspective it's the easiest, safest thing to do.

      Unfortunately classification is CONSTANTLY abused by people in government to conceal their failures and the failure of the government to do its job, and worse to hide some of its malevolent schemes. It's also integral in a government's creation of a false picture of the world in the minds of the population in order to manipulate them. Classification and propaganda go hand in hand.

      Oh, I agree completely. Based on what I've read in the paper over the years you can tell how well a weapon system works by looking at the classification. The more problems and cost overruns the system had the more secret it was. But having worked in that environment I can tell you the amount of stuff classified for political purposes is insignificant compared to the mountains of documents classified because nobody wants to be responsible for releasing it.

      As to the 9/11 report, if you thought it was ever intended to contain anything embarrassing to anyone you didn't understand the purpose. The whole point of the 9/11 commission was to spread the blame around so thinly the public wouldn't blame either party for all the dropped balls. I would think this is obvious after all the Abel Danger stuff that's been coming out in the past couple of weeks.

    16. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by demachina · · Score: 1

      "I didn't mean to imply it either"

      May not have been your intention but it was the result, and you fell in to the same brand of rhetoric the Bush administration falls into when they want to win a point without risk of debate, just invoke 9/11 and Pearl Harbor and you can rationalize every government excess and accuse anyone who argues a counterpoint of being weak or unpatriotic.

      "As to the 9/11 report..."

      I wasn't referring to the 9/11 committee report. I was referring to the Congressional report which was harder hitting and laid some of the blame where it belonged on Saudi Arabia. The entire lengthy section on Saudi involvement with the plot was censored by the White House over the objections of Congressmen in both parties.

      " I would think this is obvious after all the Abel Danger stuff that's been coming out in the past couple of weeks."

      As nearly as I can tell Able Danger was a case of people with an agenda making something out of nothing. They are trying to con the nation in to legalizing and funding massive computerized spying on America by the Pentagon, and the easiest way to do it in the face of stiff opposition is to claim it would have prevented 9/11. I know Atta and a couple other hijackers were well known to the CIA as being potential Al Qaeda members. The fact a DOD mining project might have observed, quite vaguely, something that was already known is unexciting in the least. Its still open to debate if they made the whole thing up, or at least exaggerated it, because they have an agenda. Not hard to log all the Saudi nationals in the U.S. and assume some of them are Islamic extremists. Lot of 20/20 hindsight in Able Danger.

      The more disturbing thing is the President had a briefing paper in August about Al Qaeda attacking the U.S. with airplanes and he didn't even bother to have the FBI follow up on it. If they had it might registered that field agents had red flagged Arabs in U.S. flight schools training to fly but not land airliners.

      --
      @de_machina
    17. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by bzipitidoo · · Score: 1
      Unfortunately classification is CONSTANTLY abused by people in government to conceal their failures and the failure of the government to do its job

      I can attest to this, from personal experience. I tried to point out a security flaw in some code, but was told they'd already thought of it, tested it, and there was no such flaw. So I wrote a program to demonstrate the flaw. Was told it didn't demonstrate any flaw. I improved the program, and showed them again. They were finally convinced, and made "look what we discovered and how hard we've been working" brags to various interested parties, including the authors. The authors responded that they knew of it all along (they probably did, as its existence is a consequence of basic principles), but that the flaw was a secret. I was reprimanded for having "wasted" time (implicitly for not knowing the basics better-- never mind all the others who also did not know). So that's what making that info secret did: days to rediscover it and convince others who were also in the dark and in denial, instead of minutes to read and verify what was known. Of course part of the reason for this flaw being secret was that it was easier to hide than explain.

      The system is seriously unbalanced. Anyone who has to decided whether some info should be secret is much safer deciding in favor of secret. There is no good way to identify all who really do "need to know", or, like a lot of negatives, measure of the cost of keeping info from them, so the system discounts those costs. The system lends itself to abuse, because of course outsiders can't judge whether a "secret" is an abuse if they can't learn what it is. Some have called the GPL viral. Classified info IS viral-- turns every paper or hard drive it touches into a classified object.

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    18. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by tsotha · · Score: 1
      May not have been your intention but it was the result, and you fell in to the same brand of rhetoric the Bush administration falls into when they want to win a point without risk of debate, just invoke 9/11 and Pearl Harbor and you can rationalize every government excess and accuse anyone who argues a counterpoint of being weak or unpatriotic.

      Uh, I was trying to provide information, not win a debate. As I said, that's the mindset among the people who classify information. Since you don't know me well enough to read my mind, please stick to commenting on what I'm writing without adding your own political baggage.

      I wasn't referring to the 9/11 committee report. I was referring to the Congressional report which was harder hitting and laid some of the blame where it belonged on Saudi Arabia. The entire lengthy section on Saudi involvement with the plot was censored by the White House over the objections of Congressmen in both parties.

      I'm so glad you have specific information about what was censored in that report. Perhaps you can share?

      As nearly as I can tell Able Danger was a case of people with an agenda making something out of nothing. They are trying to con the nation in to legalizing and funding massive computerized spying on America by the Pentagon, and the easiest way to do it in the face of stiff opposition is to claim it would have prevented 9/11.

      No, what they're trying to do is figure out how it is the military could have figured out Atta was a terrorist but didn't think it was important enough to pass on to the FBI. The idea the 9/11 commission could ommit any mention of Abel Danger from the report and maintain a shred of dignity or credibility is patently ridiculous. That's the point I was trying to make.

      I know Atta and a couple other hijackers were well known to the CIA as being potential Al Qaeda members.

      You know that? How? I've never seen anything along those lines except for pure speculation. I doubt they knew, since the CIA doesn't seem to actually do anything these days beyond selectively releasing classified data in an effort to affect domestic politics. In any event it's irrelevent - they don't have the authority to do anything on US soil, so if they don't pass this kind of information on to the FBI they may as well not exist at all.

      The more disturbing thing is the President had a briefing paper in August about Al Qaeda attacking the U.S. with airplanes and he didn't even bother to have the FBI follow up on it. If they had it might registered that field agents had red flagged Arabs in U.S. flight schools training to fly but not land airliners.

      First of all, the president gets briefed on thousands of those kinds of possibilities - plots to poison reservoirs, blow up oil refineries, ram oil tankers into bridges - you name it. If there's no specific information it doesn't rise above the noise floor. It doesn't bother me that he didn't take action to address any one specifically - it's not his job to micro-manage the FBI, and if he tries he'll just make things worse.

      Secondly, the FBI doesn't need direct presidential authority to put potential terrorists under surveilance, and they don't wait for it in other cases. They may need a warrant, but that's not the President's office.

    19. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by demachina · · Score: 1

      " Since you don't know me well enough to read my mind"

      Don't need to read your mind, just pointing out you are using the same rhetoric the Bush administration uses, dropping 9/11 at every turn to avoid having to making a coherent argument. I'll take you at your word that is was harmless but I like a lot of people am sick of hearing people drop 9/11 everytime they want to use a sledge hammer to make a point.

      "I'm so glad you have specific information about what was censored in that report. Perhaps you can share?"

      Obviously not it was CENSORED and to my knowledge it hasn't leaked which is miraculous as leak prone as Washington is. They only thing we know is the Bush administration censored everything in the report relating to Saudi Arabia, some 90-100 pages. The congressmen who wrote the report said that much.

      "You know that? How? I've never seen anything along those lines except for pure speculation."

      We know with as much certainty as anyone can know about anything the CIA does, that the CIA starting tailing Atta in Germany as far back as 2000, the trusty Wikipedia article. Its well known the CIA tracked him until he entered the U.S. and then dropped surveillance of him because they are precluded from operations in the U.S. Either they didn't flag him to the FBI when he entered or the FBI didn't follow up, I don't remember which.

      There is a distinct chance Able Danger learned Atta was an Al Qaeda suspect from someone in the CIA and claimed their data mining project discovered this fact independently to make themselves look good.

      Bottomline is you really can't believe anything Able Danger people say, waiting until 4 years later to claim they could have foiled 9/11.

      "First of all, the president gets briefed on thousands of those kinds of possibilities"

      So what is the point of spending billions on intelligence and intelligence briefings if you don't follow up on any of it unless its a "slam dunk".

      "Secondly, the FBI doesn't need direct presidential authority to put potential terrorists under surveillance, and they don't wait for it in other cases."

      Well obviously they did need it because they in fact failed to track the known Al Qaeda members when they entered the country, didn't track 9/11 hijackers training in U.S. flight schools to fly but not land airliners, even after one of their agents in Phoenix red flagged them, didn't follow up on Moussaui. My only point is that had the President had directed them to look at the threat that might have set off some light bulb in someones head about the hijackers training in U.S. flight schools they might have foiled the plot.

      Though at this point I really can't stand playing the 9/11 blame game anymore. There is a lot more current stuff to blame the Bush administration for which are "slam dunks" in particular the disaster that is Iraq. I quit on the 9/11 blame game, its not even interesting any more.

      --
      @de_machina
    20. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by unitron · · Score: 1
      "The CIA was being used to spy on Americans, intervene in American domestic affairs, and play dirty tricks on political opponents of those in power..."

      Greatly angering Hoover's FBI who considered those to be their duties exclusively.

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    21. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by tsotha · · Score: 1
      Don't need to read your mind, just pointing out you are using the same rhetoric the Bush administration uses, dropping 9/11 at every turn to avoid having to making a coherent argument.

      I think my argument is logical and coherent. You seem to have some fixation with the Bush administration - maybe you should see someone about that. The point was every low-level military guy and civil servant classifies as much as possible as a career preservation tactic. They really are afraid of getting blamed for some major catastrophe on the order of the 9/11 attack even if it doesn't make objective sense.

      Obviously not it was CENSORED and to my knowledge it hasn't leaked which is miraculous as leak prone as Washington is. They only thing we know is the Bush administration censored everything in the report relating to Saudi Arabia, some 90-100 pages. The congressmen who wrote the report said that much.

      Right, my point exactly. Hard to use a report you don't have access to to support an argument. For all we know it included information on Saudi government corruption or some prince's embarrassing relations with a goat. We can speculate, but that's all it is - speculation.

      We know with as much certainty as anyone can know about anything the CIA does, that the CIA starting tailing Atta in Germany as far back as 2000, the trusty Wikipedia article. Its well known the CIA tracked him until he entered the U.S. and then dropped surveillance of him because they are precluded from operations in the U.S. Either they didn't flag him to the FBI when he entered or the FBI didn't follow up, I don't remember which.

      I refuse to accept Wikipedia as a source, and the references are either subscription only or don't support that assertion. Do you have another source for the part about the CIA, preferably something official? I can't find any reasonable source on Google to back it up.

      There is a distinct chance Able Danger learned Atta was an Al Qaeda suspect from someone in the CIA and claimed their data mining project discovered this fact independently to make themselves look good.

      Do you have a reason to think this beyond idle speculation? I see no reason they couldn't have done what they claim to have done.

      Bottomline is you really can't believe anything Able Danger people say, waiting until 4 years later to claim they could have foiled 9/11.

      That's not really true. The information was given to the 9/11 commission years ago, they just chose not to reference or investigate it, since it either a) didn't fit with their notion that Atta never travelled under false passport (which isn't true, but that's what they were told by the CIA) or b) their (unofficial) charter was spread out the blame, which couldn't be done if this information came to light. The reason we're hearing about it four years later is the official report came out with no mention Abel Danger and the people involved have (illegally) gone public out of frustration.

      So what is the point of spending billions on intelligence and intelligence briefings if you don't follow up on any of it unless its a "slam dunk".

      Now you're being deliberately obtuse. You must realize I meant the president can't address all those leads personally. The fact it was in a breifing given to him is meaningless without knowing exactly what was said and the surrounding context. If it was just a long laundry list of possibilities there would have been no reason for him to address it specifically. Consider the fact the 9/11 attack is pretty minor-league compared to the things the president actually is addressing personally, like fusion bombs simultaneously detonated in multiple large US cities.

      My only point is that had the President had directed them to look at the threat that might have set off some light bulb in someones head about the hijackers training in U.S. flight schools they might have foiled the plot.

      And my point was you can't exp

    22. Re:Maybe we shouldn't have impeached clinton? by boisepunk · · Score: 1

      praise allah
      crap post
      many praises to allah
      amen

      --
      main(0)
  4. Why not just call it what it is? by stuffduff · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Face it, our form of government is not democracy, but rather a form of kleptocracy. And that's just the start of what they're covering up ...

    --
    "Can there be a Klein bottle that is an efficient and effective beer pitcher?"
    1. Re:Why not just call it what it is? by Stevyn · · Score: 1

      um...it's never been a Democracy. It's always been a Republic. That said, it's our fault for electing these people and our fault for not demanding more from them. However, I think this all has more to do with laziness and government inefficiency than a conspiracy to withhold important information from the public.

    2. Re:Why not just call it what it is? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      MIT Institute Professor Chomsky has spent countless months reading declassified material and observed that almost all of the material kept classified for 'security' reasons has no bearing on security. The main purpose appears to be to keep the general population out of the loop on what is happening and what decisions are being made.

    3. Re:Why not just call it what it is? by IdleTime · · Score: 2, Informative

      *sigh*

      USA is both a republic (that is a statesform) and a democracy (that is a political state)
      There is no contradiction between beeing a republic and beeing a democracy.

      --
      If you mod me down, I *will* introduce you to my sister!
    4. Re:Why not just call it what it is? by daliman · · Score: 3, Informative

      Kleptocracy, now that is a cool word. I didn't realise there were so many nifty ones... http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=de fine%3A+cracy My favourite is now pornocracy - http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=de fine%3A+pornocracy

    5. Re:Why not just call it what it is? by FooGoo · · Score: 1

      Since you are modded +4 insightful i'll call bullshit. Please explain your reasoning in a non-partisan manner if you can.

      --
      People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them
    6. Re:Why not just call it what it is? by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Brilliant. Only classify the important stuff then. That'll show those pesky enemies...

      On an unrelated note, a Discovery Channel program on "real life spies" had some interesting stories about this. Aparantly, in one agency the secretaries would dispose of sensitive documents by ripping them in half before tossing them in the waste bin. Needless to say, this was very helpful for the espionagers: the trash was already presorted for them...

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    7. Re:Why not just call it what it is? by Adramelech · · Score: 1

      Right. Though what one can only really conclude is that almost all of the material that has been declassified has no bearing on security. Otherwise one needs to demonstrate that the government is diligent about releasing documents that once had a bearing on security, and no longer do, and that they are not extremely conservative in their affordance of this status to classified information. Either case I think is rather unlikely. Much more likely is the case that most of the documents that get released are those that never had a particularly clear relevance to national security, or had one only indirectly. That these are being released at all actually reflects (somewhat) positively on the govt's handling of classified information.

    8. Re:Why not just call it what it is? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right. Though what one can only really conclude is that almost all of the material that has been declassified has no bearing on security. Otherwise one needs to demonstrate that the government is diligent about releasing documents that once had a bearing on security, and no longer do, and that they are not extremely conservative in their affordance of this status to classified information. Either case I think is rather unlikely. Much more likely is the case that most of the documents that get released are those that never had a particularly clear relevance to national security, or had one only indirectly. That these are being released at all actually reflects somewhat positively on the govt's handling of classified information.

    9. Re:Why not just call it what it is? by 2TecTom · · Score: 1

      factually, it's no longer really a true democracy
      in truth it's actually become a damned plutocracy

      --
      Words to men, as air to birds.
  5. In Soviet Russia... by FlyByPC · · Score: 0

    ... the secrets keep *YOU*!

    --
    Paleotechnologist and connoisseur of pretty shiny things.
    1. Re:In Soviet Russia... by azrane2005 · · Score: 0

      In Soviet Russia, karma mods YOU!

  6. Catch 22 by Haydn+Fenton · · Score: 1

    Maybe because all the other information we can use to measure it is secret? ;)

    1. Re:Catch 22 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Lenny: Shhh, it's a secret!

      Karl: Shut Up!

  7. Re:selling secrets by SilverspurG · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In the pdf is a graph of year vs. number of declassified and classified pages. The Clinton years are the only years since 1980 where more pages were declassified than new pages classified.

    The correlation is so strong that it makes me think there's a lot more that we should be able to learn from that graph. Perhaps there are correlations between businesses owned primarily by Repubs vs. businesses owned primarily by Dems. Perhaps there are correlations with watchdog groups which try to keep the government in line. Perhaps there are correlations with specific lobbying groups and law enforcement agencies.

    There's also a graph on secrecy orders issued vs. secrecy orders rescinded with respect to patents. Apparently this was a much more popular maneuver in the late 80s than it is today. It makes me wonder if that system may have become stagnant and no longer serves the purpose which it was created for.

    I like graphs.

    --
    fast as fast can be. you'll never catch me.
  8. No Surprise by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 4, Funny

    With so many of the government services running on Windows, it comes as no surprise that the cost of keeping secrets secret is ever increasing.

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    1. Re:No Surprise by mrscorpio · · Score: 1

      Yeah, they keep throwing more and more RAM at it, if they'd just restart the "secret computer" they wouldn't need to use nearly as much...

  9. The real problem by nurb432 · · Score: 0

    Its not the man, its the system.

    You need to get over your irrational dislike for the sitting president, regardless of your excuses.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:The real problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not the system, it's the people. And who they elect. And the systems the elected create.

    2. Re:The real problem by compro01 · · Score: 1

      the problem is the man at the top of the system, who then creates the levels immediately below him.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
  10. Apples and Oranges by Chmarr · · Score: 4, Informative

    The article is a little off (and, not surprising, given the site it's on).

    'cost of creating secrets' is NOT the same as 'cost of keeping secrets'. They're comparing apples to oranges.

    Of COURSE creating a secret is more expensive. Because.. you're both creating the information, AND trying to keep it secret. Telling people what you know (revealing the secret) is pittance compared to the time and effort doing the research for something that is to be KEPT secret.

    Sheesh!

    1. Re:Apples and Oranges by maxume · · Score: 1

      It's really more like comparing apples and punches in the head.

      The public likes declassification(apples) and doesn't like punches in the head(creation of new secrets). Sure, it's tough to compare them on some equivalent scale, just how many apples equals one punch in the head, but it is probably worthwhile to complain when they spend way more money punching us in the head than they do giving us apples.

      Transparency is important to the proper functioning of a free society. Comparing the monies spent keeping and revealing secrets seems like a decent proxy for the transparency of a government. I do understand the need for secrets, but it also important that the government not be allowed to keep secrets for too long.

      Why do I believe this? Because for a society to be free, individuals must be equal. If they know something and say I can't, we aint equal anymore.

      max

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:Apples and Oranges by SnowZero · · Score: 1

      I for one don't want the US releasing the designs for nuclear weapons, even if they are 30 years old. I also don't care who JFK slept with, though I'm sure People magazine would want to know. There has to be some form of benefit to offset the damage.

      There are, of course, a lot of things with little damage, but those tend to be of little benefit too. On the other hand, if something is bad enough (such as Nixon's watergate coverup), I expect it'll get leaked anyway. Whistleblowers have the strong motivation of fame.

    3. Re:Apples and Oranges by Azh+Nazg · · Score: 1
      "I for one don't want the US releasing the designs for nuclear weapons, even if they are 30 years old."
      Nuclear weapon design
      I for one, think the US doesn't need to release any more information.
      --
      Azh nazg durbataluk, azh nazg gimbatul, Azh nazg thrakataluk agh burzum ishi krimpatul! This sig blocked by Slashdot.
    4. Re:Apples and Oranges by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing that disturbs me is physicists and mechanical engineers saying "oh, but there's not enough public information, all the techniques for safely working the metal would take a very long time to develop..." - WTF? Do these people care about safety? If 300 people have to die a lingering death of radiation sickness to build a nuke for the greater glory of Allah their goatfucking god, they will do so willingly, the brainwashed memebots!

    5. Re:Apples and Oranges by SnowZero · · Score: 2, Informative

      The designs described by that page were state of the art in the 1950, and not detailed enough to build a bomb that will work with any certainty*. If you google around you'll find changes that have been made since then, but still many details are missing (which is good). What you don't find are the detailed designs for Russian "suitcase" nukes or the minaturized fission weapons used as triggers for modern fusion warheads. The article is a far cry from what the government has in its classified documents. The priciples and layout are there, but many details are missing. Critical measurements, information on the some of the materials, and timing delays are missing or unclear.

      It's kind of like how a lot of software patents work, they give you the overview but skip the meat that would allow you to actually recreate the thing without a lot of testing. That's what nuclear safety more or less depends on now... keeping the details that are determined by testing secret. If I gave you a sketch of a 4-cycle piston engine, you could recreate one, but only after a lot of testing and several failures. Thanks to the NPT testing bans, we are now very good at noticing such tests.

      (*) Of course, the "little boy" design is a concern due to its obviousness, but thankfully it requires a lot of U235 which is harder to obtain than Plutonium. I'd still rather not have the schematics released though, since there is zero benefit to society.

    6. Re:Apples and Oranges by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd still rather not have the schematics released though, since there is zero benefit to society.

      Up until the time comes when someone has to disarm one.

    7. Re:Apples and Oranges by maxume · · Score: 1

      Yes, there is certainly room for balance, and many things are indeed worth keeping secret. For me, the standard is somewhere near 'vital to national security' or something like that. The contents of JFK's little black book are fair game.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    8. Re:Apples and Oranges by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      Nukes are easy to make. Take plutonium, add more plutonium, add more plutionium, that's enough plutonium, boom. All you need to do is keep a critical mass amount of it separated in your bomb until the moment you want to detonate it, then use conventional explosives to break the separator and allow the separated plutonium to come into contact.

      You're more likely to fuck up and blow yourself up at the wrong time or give yourself lukemia than to fail to make a nuke once you've got the plutonium.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    9. Re:Apples and Oranges by SnowZero · · Score: 1

      Actually you give the perfect example of something that won't work. A gun type nuclear bomb requires U235 since Plutonium would pre-detonate (creating a very dirty but not so strong explosion). This little detail can be found on the Internet, but I expect (and hope) that many other such details are not so easily available.

      You're more likely to fuck up and blow yourself up at the wrong time...

      This is exactly the kind of failure we want, rather than a succesful detonation at the target location. A partial detonation is still probably big enough to be noticed, but not nearly as destuctive as a successful detonation.

    10. Re:Apples and Oranges by SnowZero · · Score: 1

      Up until the time comes when someone has to disarm one.

      By which you mean a civilian, since a military person could get access to the manuals if needed. A civilian having to disarm an armed nuclear weapon is pretty much the definition of "unlikely". Most weapons are pretty much impossible to stop once armed anyway, unless by disarm you meant dismantle. Modern bombs tend very much toward trying to be safe, since having one blow up your own people is undesirable. Thus if you want, you could dismantle one with a sledge hammer. The worst you'll face is some radiation from the materials. For more details see this.

    11. Re:Apples and Oranges by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      Actually you give the perfect example of something that won't work. A gun type nuclear bomb requires U235 since Plutonium would pre-detonate (creating a very dirty but not so strong explosion).

      Did you even read what you cited? The problem you are referring to is the tendency of non-weapons grade plutonium, (Pu-240) to predetonate and cause dispersion of the materials before critical is reached by reason of it being much more likely to spontaneously release neutrons. Modern nuke design does NOT use the design you gave as your example, and is instead based around increasing the efficiency by using reflectors and high compression via conventional explosive (a la "Fat Man")

      I am not a nuclear physicist, and I've never actually built a nuclear bomb or anything, but from my understanding of the physics involved, you do not NEED to go to all this trouble if you are 1) going to be planting your bomb rather than dropping it, 2) have high quality plutonium, and 3) aren't worried about conserving it by making use of the most efficient methods.

      Hell, you could take two 10 kilo chunks of quality weapons grade plutonium, put one on the ground and suspend the other above it by a rope, then sever the rope with a cherry bomb and that would most likely work.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    12. Re:Apples and Oranges by SnowZero · · Score: 1

      Did you even read what you cited?

      Yes. I've read a lot more too. You should read it more closely.

      Modern nuke design does NOT use the design you gave as your example

      So what design did you mean when you said: ...keep a critical mass amount of it separated ... break the separator...

      That's the little boy design, which is the only one that works simply, but doesn't work well with Plutonium (unless that Plutonium is more pure than that used in modern nuclear weapons).

      Modern nuke design does NOT use the design you gave as your example, and is instead based around increasing the efficiency by using reflectors and high compression via conventional explosive (a la "Fat Man")

      Exactly, and those are the ones which are hard to produce, thus aiding in safety. You need to machine a very accurate sphere, measure it even more accurately, and offset the explosive timings to compress it into an almost perfect sphere. If you mess up, it won't work. By work, I mean have anywhere near the expected yield, most likely it'll create a very dirty bomb with the yield of large conventional explosives.

      Hell, you could take two 10 kilo chunks of quality weapons grade plutonium, put one on the ground and suspend the other above it by a rope, then sever the rope with a cherry bomb and that would most likely work.

      It would have to be higher quality Plutonium than what is used in current nuclear weapons, which is to say it'd be pretty difficult to obtain. In that case you'd still need a neutron source to get any sort of yield that would justify going to the trouble of making a nuclear weapon. If however you are satisfied with simply having a meltdown that realeases a bunch of radiation, then a really simple design like dropping two hemispheres will work.

      Rockets are really simple in principle, and anyone can build one. Making a missile that can hit a target accurately several hundred miles away is a different issue entirely. Nuclear weapons are also simple in principle, but its a vast oversimplification compared to actually building one.

  11. Irrational? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Irrational? Maybe you have a short memory but do remember how the USA was doing before Bush was elected? Is it really so long ago that you don't remember how far you've falled in those 5 short years?!

  12. for now on by FudRucker · · Score: 4, Funny

    i am only supporting OpenSource/GPLed governments...

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
    1. Re:for now on by WilliamSChips · · Score: 1
      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
    2. Re:for now on by abulafia · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Someone flagged this as funny, but I agree with the notion, and question anyone who disagrees. Sure, that's how it used to work. We used to be able to mock them after the fact. No more. Government should function in the full light of day now. Watch them. Don't tell me it is like making sausage - that's an excuse. Hold people accountable, and manage your own government. Bite me, if you don't manage your executives, who will? Take some responsibility, for dog's sake.

      --
      I forget what 8 was for.
    3. Re:for now on by Halfbaked+Plan · · Score: 1

      That's an excellent sentiment. And part of watching government closely is keeping close to the government. That is made easier if the most government power is delegated locally as possible.

      So let's get rid of the National bureacracy and bring government closer to home.

      --
      resigned
  13. Only those ashamed ... by 2TecTom · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... feel the need to hide behind secrecy.

    If they could be proud, they would be loud.

    Project on Government Secrecy http://www.fas.org/sgp/

    --
    Words to men, as air to birds.
    1. Re:Only those ashamed ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So you'd be OK with the US releasing all it's information on atomic weapons, nuclear submarines, cruise missile technology, GPS crypto keys, etc.?

    2. Re:Only those ashamed ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      sigh ... might makes right, eh?

    3. Re:Only those ashamed ... by 2TecTom · · Score: 1

      Actually, sure. However, no, I don't mean secrecy should never be used, just rarely and temporarily. I fear internal secrecy more than I fear all external opposition. See?

      If there needs be conflict, why can't it be met honestly and openly?

      --
      Words to men, as air to birds.
    4. Re:Only those ashamed ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...? I'm sorry, but that is an idiotic statement.

      The location of all our battleships or submarines for example. I'd imagine something like that is classified.

      Not because we're ashamed, but because we don't want our enemies to know this.

    5. Re:Only those ashamed ... by 2TecTom · · Score: 1

      Why not? ... Are we afraid? ... Why should we be afraid? I'm not. As far as I'm concerned, let the truth stand and the facts being known. I've done nothing wrong so I have nothing to hide or be ashamed of.

      Can our government say the same?

      --
      Words to men, as air to birds.
  14. I need to know, I have a right to know! by Robbyboy · · Score: 4, Interesting
    As I read this article and associated links it really peeves me that someone would spend this much time to actually research this data. The three levels of classification are put into place for a reason, TO PROTECT NATIONAL INTERESTS. Naysayers and conspiracy theorists will disagree which is their right as will the reporters that say its their right to know.

    Lets take the example that was listed in one of the links and see what the big deal is. The USMC came across some bad body armor. Some state its the result of using the bottom bidder. Others state that people need to know this. Both sides have valid points, but now consider this: Our enemies get a hold of just exactly how that body armor is flawed and use that against our men and women deployed. You can use your imagination from there. If it is classified, it is usually done for a reason that people who apply that classification know about. If they justified every application of a classification, why have secrets at all.

    Maybe I will have others disagree with me. Fine, my response is not all inclusive just something to chew on.

    1. Re:I need to know, I have a right to know! by Spad · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course the counterpoint to that is that by hiding the information, the government can get away with not replacing the faulty body armour on the basis that nobody's going to find out about the flaws.

    2. Re:I need to know, I have a right to know! by McGiraf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Our enemies get a hold of just exactly how that body armor is flawed and use that against our men and women deployed. You can use your imagination from there.

      Ok, I imagine that security through obscurity doesn't work.

      They should have fixed it, not try to hide it has a flaw. Someone will find out anyway how they are flawed and use this info against soldiers who have been kept in the dark on how to mitigate the risks.

      Bad exemple ...

    3. Re:I need to know, I have a right to know! by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      I don't know about the US, but here in the UK at least just because something is classified (or in UK government parlance, "protectively marked") doesn't mean that no-one ever gets to know about it.

      It's disseminated on a need to know basis. In the body armour example, it may be that it's decided that the troops actually wearing the armour need to know, and so they're told. Or perhaps their commanding officers are, and it's left up to them whether or not to tell their men. Or maybe noone gets told.

      The point is "classified" does not mean "noone must ever know this!!1!". It means "only those who need to know should know", with the added restriction that at certain levels of classification you need a certain piece of paper (a security clearance) in order to have access to the information.

    4. Re:I need to know, I have a right to know! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      This is a joke, right? What's your expectation, that the enemy, striking palm to forehead, will feel shame for not shooting at American troops until now? Or that all shots will be trained on the 'magic spot'. Oh, and which enemy would that be?

      Yours is a perfect illustration of the authority-worshipping mindset, unable to grasp the proper conclusion: those who really put your troops in danger are the decision makers outfitting them and they should be hauled out publicly and loudly as traitors. I doubt it's in the realm of possibilities for you.

    5. Re:I need to know, I have a right to know! by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      The problem is that there doesn't seem to be any third-party review of whether the secrecy is justified. In your body armor example, will the secrecy be used to just cover up the flaw indefinitely to protect the manufacturer and leave soldiers in danger, or will the flaw be fixed with due haste?

      It seems like way too many wrongs were commited in the name of national interests, national security and so on.

      I really don't have trust or faith in this system that it would be properly used.

    6. Re:I need to know, I have a right to know! by servognome · · Score: 1

      The problem is that there doesn't seem to be any third-party review of whether the secrecy is justified.

      There is a third party review. The DoD is the one that keeps the secrets. Congress and the president have the right to ask for and review those secrets.
      Of course the soldiers in the field know what is going on, and if our elected representatives don't address the issue, as what happened with the body armor, the information will get out from them.

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    7. Re:I need to know, I have a right to know! by geekee · · Score: 1

      "Of course the counterpoint to that is that by hiding the information, the government can get away with not replacing the faulty body armour on the basis that nobody's going to find out about the flaws."

      When troops come back in body bags, you can't really keep something like that a secret. People start investigating.

      --
      Vote for Pedro
    8. Re:I need to know, I have a right to know! by Alien+Being · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "TO PROTECT NATIONAL INTERESTS"

      That's what they are telling us, but they are lying. GW Bush is a liar. Let me say it so you can hear me, BUSH IS A LIAR.

      The entire administration is based on lies. They stole two elections. They ignored intelligence which would/could/should have prevented 9/11. They started wars where there were none and where the US had no business starting them. They made rogues of us.

      This is not about protecting national interests; it's about building power for a federal government controlled by a greedy, self-righteous, anti-American scumbag named GW Bush.

      Do you thing it's just a coincidence that every catastrophe conveniently creates huge profit opportunities for Bush's and Cheney's corrupt business partners. The economy is in the toilet, yet Halliburton and the oil companies are making record profits. Are you so naive or so brainwashed that you can't see what's going on right under your nose?

      Sure, it may be sensitive information to reveal the exact flaw in body armor, but don't you think the enemy already knows that the armor is fallible? Don't you know that the military is always lying about the bad stuff they expose GI's to? Do you remember Agent Orange? Why, for the first time in our history, have they censored pictures of GIs coming home in coffins?

      If you want to talk about national interests, let's talk about thousands of dead people on the gulf coast who should have been protected by Bush's old roommate, incompetent equestrian judge, and even less capable FEMA director, Mike Brown. Bush said "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees." Give me a break. Did he really say that? Yes, he did. They knew for sure that they would find WMD in Iraq, but they had no idea about the structural limits of a key naval port? I say he's an evil SOB, but even if I give him the benefit of the doubt, the only other conclusion I can reach is that he's as dumb as a bag of rocks.

      Bush is destroying this country. The best way to protect national interests would be to remove him from office.

    9. Re:I need to know, I have a right to know! by hitmark · · Score: 1

      unless they come across them by "accident". most likely while wearing said body armour.

      still, dead men tell no tales...

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    10. Re:I need to know, I have a right to know! by GenKreton · · Score: 1

      Your example is further flawed consider how many soldiers in harms way lack any body armor.

      Declassify a few documents, and don't classify the ones that shouldn't be and maybe they would have that body armor though...

    11. Re:I need to know, I have a right to know! by Halfbaked+Plan · · Score: 0, Troll

      You 'anti-Bush all the time, anytime' nutcases do a good job of discrediting yourselves.

      He made the milk in your refrigerator go sour, too, didn't he?

      --
      resigned
    12. Re:I need to know, I have a right to know! by orkysoft · · Score: 1

      Yes, I remember Something Awful collecting $22,000 for body armor for a unit of soldiers, and I wondered why they didn't have it in the first place...

      --

      I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
    13. Re:I need to know, I have a right to know! by mOdQuArK! · · Score: 1
      When troops come back in body bags, you can't really keep something like that a secret. People start investigating.

      Hey, it's a war. People get killed.

      Sorry, any more information than that is on a need-to-know basis, and you don't need to know.

    14. Re:I need to know, I have a right to know! by Alien+Being · · Score: 1

      "You 'anti-Bush all the time, anytime' nutcases do a good job of discrediting yourselves."

      We are right about him. We knew that they weren't telling the truth about weapons evidence and we knew that the Iraq war was a mistake. We knew what a clown Rumsfeld is. We knew the agenda of Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz. We knew that America would be heading downhill when Bush "won" the election.

      Just as support for the war in Iraq is plummeting, so is support for the man who started it.

    15. Re:I need to know, I have a right to know! by n6kuy · · Score: 1

      > The entire administration is based on lies. They stole two elections.

      *PLONK*

      --
      If you disagree with me on social issues, then it's pretty clear that you are a narrow-minded bigot.
    16. Re:I need to know, I have a right to know! by Halfbaked+Plan · · Score: 1

      You knew it all long before anything that could have been presented to you as evidence.

      It's all just a matter of electing YOUR candidate to office.

      Better loosen those blinders.

      Naw. Never mind.

      --
      resigned
    17. Re:I need to know, I have a right to know! by Alien+Being · · Score: 1

      "You knew it all long before anything that could have been presented to you as evidence."

      Now your just trolling. You don't think there was evidence about these people before they took office? You must not be very well informed.

    18. Re:I need to know, I have a right to know! by Halfbaked+Plan · · Score: 1

      Actually, my point, probably not well expressed, is that you would be anti-Bush no matter what the Bush administration does. It doesn't matter what evidence is presented, you know your position beforehand.

      Your ideology shades your view of the world. There is 'evidence' of all sorts of things. If you want to look at the opposite side, there is 'evidence' that Vince Foster was murdered by the Clintons. There is 'evidence' that Ted Kennedy is a malevolent womanizing hypocrite.

      Stongly slanted, ideologically motivated 'evidence.' The same kind you rely on to reinforce your preconcieved caricatures of the 'Right.' Just the opposite polarity.

      --
      resigned
    19. Re:I need to know, I have a right to know! by Alien+Being · · Score: 1

      "you would be anti-Bush no matter what the Bush administration does. It doesn't matter what evidence is presented, you know your position beforehand."

      You know almost nothing about my ideology. Just to give you a hint, I voted for Reagan and Bush Senior. If Bush did something good, I'd credit him for it, though it's hard to imagine anything good enough to make up for the damage he has already done. I still think Nixon was a good president despite his fatal flaws.

      It's you who has the strong bias. You seem to think that anyone who disagrees with Bush must have ulterior motives.

      "there is 'evidence' that Vince Foster was murdered by the Clintons."

      But that evidence was very weak and circumstantial, not that I support the Clintons either. The evidence I referred to regarding the present Bush administration is all part of the public record and there's nothing circumstantial about it.

  15. I think Bush has realised by Timesprout · · Score: 4, Insightful

    that keeping secrets is too expensive so he weaving such a web of deceit it becomes impossible to tell the truth from a lie.

    --
    Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
    What truth?
    There is no dupe
    1. Re:I think Bush has realised by nacturation · · Score: 1

      Your comment assumes his incompetence is intentional.

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    2. Re:I think Bush has realised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Haha, yeah right. As if Bush actually cares about governmental spending. He spends money like a crack whore in Colombia.

    3. Re:I think Bush has realised by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      Only on /. (and Democraticunderground) could this be labelled 'insightful'.

      Look, perhaps this article supports all of your personal biases. Goody for you. But doesn't anyone smell "contrived statistics" when an article writer uses such elaborate yardsticks for measurement without SOME sort of causal connection? And the ones that ARE straightfoward are sketchy and presented so partially (ie. missing vital comparison data) they are worthless at letting the reader draw their own conclusions.

      "cost of classification was $148 per $1 spent declassifying docs" In a theoretically perfect system, a government would have terrifically extensive tests before a document would be classified, and very, very simple rules about when that classification expired. Wouldn't that produce PRECISELY that sort of lopsided ratio? Isn't that what we want? The same holds true of course for the purported increase in costs. This might be a good thing, if you looked at it differently. I mean clearly, if the government just gave every middle manager a 'secret' stamp and told them to stamp every sheet of paper with it, that would be pretty cheap, wouldn't it?

      "more documents classified than before" well duh. Utterly meaningless unless compared to the number of documents created.

      Furthermore, with the RIAA running rampant and personal privacies assailed at every turn, how many of these are DIRECTLY beneficial to private citizens, making certain information held by the gov't no longer purchaseable by business? Wouldn't this be good?

      A cheap, biased summary of a biased report with a clear political agenda. Perfect grist for slashdot. :(

      --
      -Styopa
    4. Re:I think Bush has realised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only on Slashdot could this comment have been modded "Insightful." Even for those who simply hate W and think he's the worst president we've had in 50 years, you'd be hard pressed to consider this comment to be insightful.

      Man, Slashdot has really jumped the couch.

  16. How the Govt can reduce the cost by Alain+Williams · · Score: 1, Interesting
    Take note of the recent decision in Massachusetts that MS Word format documents may not be readable in the future. Realise that if everyone stays running on MS Windows 95 and ancient versions of MS Word, that there are no upgrade fees due.

    Put the two together: You don't pay for the old/bought software and no one can read the file formats that it produced ... perfect, cheap secrecy.

  17. Better editing? by j00bar · · Score: 1

    They might get taken more seriously if they edited their report better...

    The numbers for 2004 are rounded historical data are estimated to the nearest dollar because of the change in the way that ISOO reports the estimated number.
    Another Another measurable indicator of the cost of secrecy in dollar terms is the amount of money estimated to cost the American taxpayer for every new secrecy decision.

    Sorry to nitpick.

    -j00
    --
    When all you have is a hammer, everybody looks like a Messiah.
  18. why we classify by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What seems to be misunderstood is the reason why information is classified. Information is protected because of the sensitivity of the source that provides that information, whether is be HUMINT, satelite, etc. In many cases, our source of information with regard to our enemies is dependent on no more than one solid source. If that source is lost, or the knowledge of the capability is revealed to others, our intelligence would be compromised. Classified information is eligible for review and release every 25 years with some exceptions. If, after 25 years however, the source used in the original intelligence is still active and in use, the information will not be released as present and future operations couuld be compromised. A perfect example of this is Google's Talent(imagery) satellite. If I know that every 6 months, Google will task the satellite to fly over my neighborhood, and that that satellite has the ability to zoom in a sign on my lawn, I will just move the sign until the satellite goes over and then put it back out. Our collection methods are much the same. Once the enemy knows they are there and what they can do they will either: 1. kill the source 2. hide their stuff or try to deceive us 3. change the way they communicate and opperate. It isn't the information that is so important, but the platform by which it is collected.

    1. Re:why we classify by xerid · · Score: 1

      Well, now that you just told the world it's collected by satellite, it serves no purpose to keep it secret. Also, you might want to adding some links: HUMINT

    2. Re:why we classify by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 2, Interesting
      What seems to be misunderstood is the reason why information is classified. Information is protected because of the sensitivity of the source that provides that information, whether is be HUMINT, satelite, etc. In many cases, our source of information with regard to our enemies is dependent on no more than one solid source. If that source is lost, or the knowledge of the capability is revealed to others, our intelligence would be compromised.

      So if we don't protect the black-ops, we might find out exactly how and where they're screwing everybody and be able to do something stop it.

      Gee. That'd be just horrible.

      The stage-production of 'neighboring warring nations' which need to spy on one another is just that; a stage production created so that people can offer up over-simple rationalizations for continued secrecy and fear-based social controls.


      -FL

    3. Re:why we classify by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      all current events aside, you don't want your policy makers making informed decisions based on what other nations want to keep secret?

      You'd rather be in favor of no secrets in our government, which would let other countries walk all over our national concerns, as well completely negate any insight that we may have into things that other countries aren't forthcoming about?

      Openness has its place, but so does secrecy.

    4. Re:why we classify by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1
      all current events aside, you don't want your policy makers making informed decisions based on what other nations want to keep secret?

      You'd rather be in favor of no secrets in our government, which would let other countries walk all over our national concerns, as well completely negate any insight that we may have into things that other countries aren't forthcoming about?


      That question is based on a high degree of dogma. You presuppose that governments have our best interests at heart. Just look at Katrina for the latest example of how false that idea is!

      And putting all current events aside?

      Seeing as we don't live under a theoretical governmental system, what value is there in not looking at objective reality when posing questions about whether government secrets are good or bad? Anybody who does the slightest bit of real digging quickly learns that we are being *shafted* by the current leaders, as well as the ones before them, and the ones before those. The 'informed' decisions made by those policy makers were and are designed to cause chaos and fear, to control us and set us in a reality where we are afraid of "being walked all over by other countries". This is a lie. An enforced stage production perpetrated by the secret keepers. People simply dance (go to war) over the lies sold to them by their social and religious leaders. That's how it works.

      The CIA has destroyed the social structures of many countries which were threatening to rise in world power through the development of healthy and democratically elected governments which 'threaten' to offer good social services and fairly traded goods. The CIA does this precisely to keep the US on top of the heavily slanted power and money game. Look at what is happening in Venezuela right now. This is what secrecy leads to.

      Once secrets are gone, once people have full knowledge and the willingness to look at and act on that knowledge, corruption will have a much harder time existing.

      The only place I see for secrecy is when speaking a truth will endanger or hurt a person or people who are not emotionally or physically ready for such knowledge and who choose to stay ignorant and deal with their issues at their own speed. For instance, you don't share deep government secrets when you know the receiver would be harrassed or murdered for receiving that data.


      -FL

  19. Re:Way to go mods!! by andrewman327 · · Score: 1
    "If you actually look at the graph, you'll see that the situation was significantly better when Clinton was president than now that Bush is in office."

    How can you tell that the situation is better or worse from the provided data? If you read the first posts, you will notice that this data doesn't really mean very much. These posts haven't been modded flamebait for attacking Bush, they've been modded down for not making sense!

    --
    Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
  20. ha! by mark_jabroni · · Score: 1
    There are a number of very specific criteria that can be used as a rationale to keep information classified.

    It might be a bit of a shock, but I'm afraid pride didn't make the list.

    1. Re:ha! by 2TecTom · · Score: 1

      So, just what is the rationale behind the rising and excessive cost of government secrecy?

      No anwser? My, how shocking!

      --
      Words to men, as air to birds.
  21. Retarded story by N8F8 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Duhhh, bigger society means bigger government using modern communications tech. Yeah, I'd say the govenment cranks out 148X more info today than it dis previously. Maybe in 50 years folks will say the govet is spending $148 on declassifying legacy info for every $1480 spent generating new info.

    --
    "God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
    1. Re:Retarded story by McGiraf · · Score: 1

      mmm ... ever heard of ratios?

    2. Re:Retarded story by mcrbids · · Score: 1

      Let's do some math.

      1/148 = .006756...

      148/1480 =.10

      The latter is a MUCH BIGGER NUMBER. Some 15-ish times larger. So, what you're in effect saying, is "Duhhh [sic], bigger society means bigger government using modern communications tech. Yeah, I'd say the government cranks out 148x more info today than it dis [sic] previous. Maybe in 50 years folks will say the govet [sic] will say the govet [sic] is spending "almost 1/15 as much as 2005 keeping secrets".

      Learn what a ratio is before using it!

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
  22. The real question by Eminence · · Score: 4, Interesting
    The real question is whether they have more to hide or whether it's just the good old Parkinson's Law at work. I think it's the later, seriously.

    Possibly the whole state bureaucracy, whole state machine is just like a Windows installation. It degrades over time and at some point you have to re-install from scratch.

    1. Re:The real question by FudRucker · · Score: 1

      ["Possibly the whole state bureaucracy, whole state machine is just like a Windows installation. It degrades over time and at some point you have to re-install from scratch."] good analogy :)

      --
      Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
    2. Re:The real question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ummm... Reinstalling from scratch Windows in Bush's brain?

      Not bad. But I'd rather prefer just to format it and install something he can bear (Windows is too bulky). Maybe a little Forth firmware is enough.

    3. Re:The real question by ShakiirNvar · · Score: 2, Funny
      Possibly the whole state bureaucracy, whole state machine is just like a Windows installation. It degrades over time and at some point you have to re-install from scratch.
      Now there's an idea I like, deleting the current government and creating a new one from scratch ...
      --
      "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." - HL Mencken
    4. Re:The real question by cyborg_zx · · Score: 1

      But why would you want to re-install a system that is just going to enevitably degrade? Surely it would be better in this analogy to seek out a new system rather than just resetting the one that failed in the first place?

    5. Re:The real question by FudRucker · · Score: 1

      just get rid of the Windows style government that has a draconion EULA and a ClosedSource philosophy and install an OpenSource/GPLed government that does not lean to the left or right that keeps to the middle of the road with a better perspective...

      --
      Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
  23. Maybe it should be converted into .. by RedLaggedTeut · · Score: 1

    gallons per parsec

    --
    I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
    1. Re:Maybe it should be converted into .. by Matilda+the+Hun · · Score: 1

      Or maybe furlongs per fortnight.

      --
      Tluin natha Linux xxizzuss uriu olt bwael mon'tun.
  24. Incorrect Numbers? by magiluke · · Score: 1

    I don't know, but if we can get the cost for keeping secrets, doesn't that mean that we probably know the secrets? I mean, it can't be that well kept of a secret if we know how much they are paying to keep it. I'd say the number is off. That was phrased very awkwardly, but that's what I'm sticking with.

    --
    -Magiluke

    Earl Grey, Hot.

  25. Bad comparison by noidentity · · Score: 1

    This is a bad comparison because it costs more to print a classified page and shred it than to print an unclassified page. Duh.

  26. who released this information? by big+whiffer · · Score: 3, Funny

    i thought it was supposed to be secret?

    1. Re:who released this information? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Imagine the cost of keeping the formula for CocaCola and the secret ingredients for Kentucky Fried Chicken secret. People keep drinking and eating up the evidence. This post was almost a secret also, as the "confirm you're not a script" word was too hard for me to see.

  27. Re:TOTAL NONSENSE! by symbolic · · Score: 1

    TO PROTECT NATIONAL INTERESTS.

    Go read the ACLU website to see just what the goverment is trying to keep secret, especially with their new tool, the National Security Letter.

  28. Re:Way to go mods!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm sorry, but it's simply a truth that the current administration is far more secretive than most.

    Try reading this book if you want reams and reams of proof.

    And look up Executive Order 13233, to start. Whether or not these specific classification/declassification statistics are accurate, Bush's presidency is one of the most secretive, stonewalling, etc. etc. to date.

  29. It's not $128:$1 by AFairlyNormalPerson · · Score: 5, Funny

    Don't let the figures fool you.

    The real figure is $3:$1.

    The other $123 went towards buying the hammers and wrenches that they claim to spend $500 for - which they don't - those $500 aren't spent on the hammers and wrenches - it is actually used towards funding the stuff that they are trying to keep secret in the first place.
    It shouldn't be much of a secret though that the secret is this crazy scheme of keeping secrets.

    Got it?

    1. Re:It's not $128:$1 by ShibbyShagDeluxe · · Score: 1

      I wonder if the rising cost is anything to do with the amount of starbucks coffee those covert code-monkeys consume?

      --
      Mr Spanky, the erotic goldfish
  30. wtf by briancurtin · · Score: 2, Funny

    i keep secrets for free. these "secrets" they are paying $148 for will get leaked. they need to find a new secret keeper.

    --
    My UID is a palindrome, that must be good for some type of prize.
  31. More than that, I think by Descalzo · · Score: 5, Informative
    I wonder if this $148 figure includes the cost of granting security clearance.

    I had an opportunity to speak with an FBI man whose job it was to certify people for security clearance. The man is a world traveller, interviewing personally as many people as he could to get an idea of how trustworthy the candidate would be.
    When I asked him about these interviews, he said he didn't bother with the telephone, but went right to the interviewee and looked them in the eyes. He told me he recently went to Elko, Nevada to go down into the mine to talk with the candidate's former co-workers. He also mentioned that if the candidate had spent time overseas, then the process becomes very complicated and time consuming.

    Now, that sounds like a very expensive process to me. It seems from the article that this cost would not be included (it doesn't say specifically, but it only mentions documents), but it certainly would be a related cost.

    Another (unrelated) point:

    From the article:"...and the inadequate response to Hurricane Katrina shows the public needs to know what could happen in their communities and what the response plans are..."

    What? Is it just me or did someone just drop the name Katrina to increase the emotional blow of his tirade? I don't see the connection. Are these response plans a secret? Is the possibility of a hurricane on the Gulf Coast some kind of NSA classified information?

    I probably sound sarcastic, but if there is anyone who could enlighten me on this, let me know.

    --
    I cried real tears when Li Mu Bai died.
    1. Re:More than that, I think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What? Is it just me or did someone just drop the name Katrina to increase the emotional blow of his tirade? I don't see the connection. Are these response plans a secret? Is the possibility of a hurricane on the Gulf Coast some kind of NSA classified information?

      Some emergency response plans may be classified. For example military and security responses
      Not sure where the general hurricane plans fall, I would suspect most of them would not be classified as it needs to be executed by local and state goverments.

      The biggest problem with Katrina wasn't the hurricane itself, it was the flooding from the levee breaks, which may not have been on the list of scenarios.

    2. Re:More than that, I think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, actually, the response plans ARE classified. For example DHS, FEMA and others have made obtuse references to "a nationwide system of temporary shelters...and stockpiles of supplies," but Ridge, Chertoff, Rice declined to elaborate in a CNN investigative piece in March '05.

      Well, where are they? Would these super-secret shelters, food and water somehow only be useful after a nuclear/chem/bio attack? Who in their right mind would ever have believed that terrorists would endanger more lives than natural disasters? Hell, in the last 20 yrs, more Americans have been killed by lightning than terrorists.

      Is it more likely that post 9-11 spending has found its way to Halliburton-like coffers? With unnecessary secrecy, we can do nothing but speculate.

      As a (very recent) former intelligence officer, with the waste, fraud and abuse I personally witnessed at disturbingly high levels, I am forced to subscribe to the latter.

      Whether terrorist or natural disaster, the better question, and more productive mentality, would be, why not publicize emergency plans as loud as possible before hand?

    3. Re:More than that, I think by Halfbaked+Plan · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Whoo. You found a way to invoke Haliburton. Here's your cookie!

      I'm a former intelligence officer, and I never EVER saw you at the water cooler.

      Could it be that one, or both of us, are lying through our teeth??

      --
      resigned
    4. Re:More than that, I think by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      I'm also a former intelligence officer, and neither of you are lying.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    5. Re:More than that, I think by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      Fucking officers.

      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
    6. Re:More than that, I think by ReagansUndeadBrain · · Score: 1

      As frustrating as it sounds, there are even further costs being added as a result of delays caused by clearance backlogs. Overworked, beleagured agents are having to process many more people for clearances now. You would think this would be a good thing, making sure that people are trustworthy. Unfortunately, to investigate the slim, slim likelihood that one out of some large number of people is untrustworthy, the vast majority of those who are trustworthy are seeing huge delays in the completion of their clearance process.

      If you've been abroad recently, or have any relatives living abroad - don't even think about trying to work in a secure environment these days.

    7. Re:More than that, I think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In .au such clearances cost approx $5000 for secret, and $15000 to $170,000 for higher, plus ongoing compliance costs. They are also canned if you move jobs, and take days to weeks to fill out, and months/years to be approved.

      Jobs agencies say having TS or better ADDS $35 to per-hour pay if you are a contractor, willing to work at places, and in a time of unemployment can place rated people with jobs yesterday - even IT plebs with zero experience.

      Judging from media reports, most leaked info comes from politicians or police, with an embarrassment / gaff / disinformation slant, or via their media advisors, or uncleared family relations hired as 'helpers', yet as MIB says, common knowledge in supermarket tabloids.

    8. Re:More than that, I think by zCyl · · Score: 1

      The biggest problem with Katrina wasn't the hurricane itself, it was the flooding from the levee breaks, which may not have been on the list of scenarios.

      Actually, it was at the top of scenarios for just about anyone who was paying attention to the news, or listening to the local FEMA people for the last couple of years. That unfortunately does not include the president or director of FEMA.

  32. who would have thaught... by xlr82xs · · Score: 1

    ...that it costs more to develope new technology than it does to release the technology you've developed...

    even if they didn't try to keep a given technology secret, it would still cost them more to develope it, than it would to release it.

    then if you add in the cost of activly performing a task (ie keeping certain information secret) vs the cost of not performing a task, of course its going to be more expensive to perform a task, when the alternate option is simply not performing the task...

    its like acting surprised that it costs more to go and buy a tv, than it does to not go and buy a tv :-/

  33. Is it sustainable? by Weezul · · Score: 3, Funny

    Clearly one can classify almost everything, but this will have major economic costs eventually. If your society competes with an open society which does not pay secrecy costs, execpt on a few things it does not want you to know about, can your society survive?

    --
    The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
  34. perhapse by Exter-C · · Score: 1

    Maybe they should look into spending that money on upgrading the national security networks to protect the government systems more carefully. Especially as digital threats to government installations are becoming more and more of a risk. As seen on slashdot about korean and chinese crackers/hackers etc.

  35. End of cold war by geekee · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "In the pdf is a graph of year vs. number of declassified and classified pages. The Clinton years are the only years since 1980 where more pages were declassified than new pages classified."

    I think there's a strong correlation to the end of the cold war and the lack of understanding of the magnitude of terrorist threats with the trend you've noticed.

    --
    Vote for Pedro
    1. Re:End of cold war by SilverspurG · · Score: 1

      The time would be around the correct years but, honestly, I don't see the face of the business landscape as having changed that much.

      I'm not so certain that militant terrorists would have much of an interest in poring over patents. It's not like they have the type of legitimate facilities and employment that would put them close to the development stage of manufacturing. Unless someone would like to admit that there are more real-world business ties to militant terrorists than what's commonly thought.

      --
      fast as fast can be. you'll never catch me.
  36. Re:selling secrets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I bet some of it was the Cold War, at least the bit on patents. Didn't need to broadcast that
    Company X discovery new thingy Z which probably had absolutely no real effect on the fact that both countries were ready to "glass" one another.

    But I think there is definitely a Republican/Democrat thing going on. And Clinton was actually fairly centrist. All hail FOIA.

  37. Basic Economics by nurb432 · · Score: 3, Informative

    I think you need to go back to school and learn about the delay between action and reaction.

    Today we mostly are experiencing the results of the Clinton fiscal policy. ( effects of the current war not included of course as those effects are felt faster then normal fiscal changes )

    Much as the Clinton years enjoyed the results of Regan's polices.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:Basic Economics by timster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think you are going a little bit far to claim that a point which is a matter of much dispute, with well-educated participants on both sides, is "basic economics". It's excessive to tell someone who does not support Bush's fiscal policies to "go back to school".

      Certainly the government spent less under Clinton than under Bush. The fact that Bush prefers to finance the government via debt instead of taxes shouldn't fool anyone into thinking that his tax cuts represent fiscal restraint.

      --
      I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
    2. Re:Basic Economics by krelyk · · Score: 0

      Wow... Thank you, Captain Obvious... so do you think Bush is doing a fabulous job? Of course I understand said delay, and I also understand that we will slowly be pulling ourselves from this hole for many years (possibly decades) to come, thanks to the current administration.

      EOF

    3. Re:Basic Economics by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      Did i at all comment on my feelings about the current administration's handling of things? No.

      I only explained that what we see today isn't the result of the current administration. I was speaking facts of how the economics work, not making a political statement of any kind.

      Be Bush's polices good or bad ( i wont get into that debate at all ), we wont feel its true effects until some time into the *next* administration.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    4. Re:Basic Economics by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      "Be Bush's polices good or bad ( i wont get into that debate at all ), we wont feel its true effects until some time into the *next* administration"

      Hate to break it to you, but economic reaction time is in no way that simple... there is no magic 4-year delay, or even 8-year delay.

      The truth of the matter is that we'll feel some of the effects now, some during the next administration, and some in the next decade and decades down the road.

      For an example, let's look at fuel costs, since they have myriad effects n the economy. What affects them? Whose policies have affected the current supply in the US? Whose have affected the current demand in the US? Pretty much everyone since Eisenhower.

      Any Presidential administration will inherit an economic situation from their predecessor. But there are near-immediate impacts of Presidential policy on the economy, such as:

      (1) Consumer confidence
      (2) Economic costs/benefits of war and war production
      (3) Budgetary finance methods -- cutting of government programs vs. debt financing; cutting government programs would have an immediate, as well as longer-term, effect on the economy.

      The key then, is for any administration to acknowledge responsibility for those parts of the economy which their actions or policies have directly affected.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  38. I can't tell you how secure this makes me feel.... by Univac_1004 · · Score: 1
    ....no, I really can't.

    I just can't at all.

  39. Is Sweden still an "Open Gov't" Kingdom? by ivi · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Is Sweden still as open as it was in the 80's?

      Some years ago, I read (in official info, received from the Swedish Institute) that
      almost EVERYTHING produced by a Swedish gov't dep't, authority, etc. is freely
      available for public access.

      http://www.si.se/templates/StartPage.aspx?id=3

      If that link has died/changed, pick your language at the top of the site at:

            http://www.si.se/

      There used to be an SI Fact Sheet (or 3) on all of this, but I couldn't find it
      after 8 minutes at SI's web site...

      (Perhaps Sep 11th has changed Sweden's openness? 'hope not...)

      Surprisingly enough, openness applied even to such sacred cows (in other lands)
      as [most of] the Prime Minister's mail & [most] individual's tax records (useful,
      after all, to family-tree researchers).

      While living/working in the Kingdom of Sweden over 5 chilly "winters," I tested the latter
      claim... walking into the local tax office (Lokallaskattemindigheten, from memory...)
      and - in English - asked to use the Office's "public computer terminal" - still speaking
      English.

      In about 5 minutes, whoever was using a computer terminal finished and I was escorted
      inside, to a place with 2 or 3 computer terminals. A "Public (ie, limited / read-only)
      Access" card was sweeped-in, for my terminal, and I was given practically unlimited access
      (in time spent at the computer terminal).

      Of course, I had to know enough Swedish to be able to understand the prompts & commands
      needed to get to some sample data records, by my own & some few friends' and colleagues'
      data.

      I understand that only the names of children born out of wedlock would have been hidden
      from me; also, data may be hidden at certain points in the processing cycle (eg, before
      it is verified as accurate?)

      The only cost became payable only if I had wanted to print out some of the date I found
      (rather than copy into my notes, by hand).

      (I wonder if - today - one could use digital cameras to photograph data while displayed
      on screens, or - better - whether USB-disks can be used to gether much more information
      in a more convenient & useful manner...? Does anyone know?)

      The openness was said to go far beyond the example mentioned above...

      Any publicly-funded report was to be freely available - on request - at various depart-
      mental libraries.

      Even corporate libraries could be pursuaded to loan some of their materials (via Inter-
      Library Loan arrangements) to individual borrowers, in the community.

      The idea was, I understand, that an informed public was a basic tenet of [Social] Democracy.

      I didn't happen to stumble on any reports on the costs of supplying such information, or
      of not providing it.

      Has anyone got up-to-date info on how it is in Sweden today?

      ( cf: http://www.sweden.se/ for gen'l info )

    1. Re:Is Sweden still an "Open Gov't" Kingdom? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Sept. 11 didn't change much (except the american embassy has beefed up security for some inexplicable reason).

      Most things are still very much available to the public. Any correspondence between government and citizen is public and can probably be found somewhere. Never really bothered to look.

      And we do have a royal family, but they don't have anything to say about anything. We're technically a kingdom, but nobody refers to Sweden as "the kingdom of..." y'know? :)

    2. Re:Is Sweden still an "Open Gov't" Kingdom? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yep, in Sweden (and in Finland, probably also other socialist Scandinavian countries) accountability to anyone is considered much more important aspect of democracy and freedom than here in US.

      In Scandinavia people except wide rights to review government and other public institutions in action and this is provided by legislation, so yes, you are free to access practically everything but truly sensitive documents such details of military bases (the list of things government is allowed to classify is limited).

      Not surprisingly, these countries top as the least corrupted societies in the world, while US ranks behind many developed nations.
      http://www.transparency.org/cpi/2004/cpi2004.en.ht ml#cpi2004

      Also Central European countries such France implement strong constitutional Freedom of Information rights (comparing to US), but Scandinavian countries have always shown the way to world.

      Erhm, btw, what the heck is this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13233

    3. Re:Is Sweden still an "Open Gov't" Kingdom? by Dr.+Cody · · Score: 1

      And we do have a royal family, but they don't have anything to say about anything. We're technically a kingdom, but nobody refers to Sweden as "the kingdom of..." y'know? :)

      I am humming that to the tune of "United States of Whatever" in Swedish right now.

    4. Re:Is Sweden still an "Open Gov't" Kingdom? by swiftstream · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I lived in Sweden last year, and while I didn't personally try to test how transparent the scoiety is, it is much more open than the US. There was a case not long ago where an archbishop or something was forced to release personal communications with the subordinate bishops in the area (I'm not too clear on the details, but Sweden has a state church, so archbishop is a government position). There was also a case where a high-level minister (government, not church) was forced to resign after the press learned that she had bought herself a candy bar on her government credit card. So yes, Sweden takes transparency and very seriously and they aren't afraid to boot somebody who doesn't live up the standards out of office.

      It causes constant problems in relations between the US and Sweden, because Sweden wants the US to tell them things which may be sensitive or classified, but the US is afraid that if they do tell them then by Swedish law they would become publically available.

      --
      Be a PATRIOT--because the only thing we have to fear is the lack thereof.
  40. Re:TOTAL NONSENSE! by Halfbaked+Plan · · Score: 1

    TO PROTECT THE ACLU'S INTERESTS.

    Go read the ACLU website, to see what kind of paranoia they are trying to stir up, to make payments on the expensive new copier at National Headquarters.

    --
    resigned
  41. Re:TOTAL NONSENSE! by symbolic · · Score: 1

    I dare say that a) you haven't read anything on the web site, and b) you have no idea what the NSL entails.

  42. One of the secrets they have been trying to keep by 3seas · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    ....from the public is the real reason why 9/11 happened.

    What is amazing is that there is plenty enough information publicly available that anyone with half a brain that comes across this information and most important, the ability to think for themselves.... Well it'll be obvious and undeniable.

    And yes, the government has spent more to cover it up than what it'd cost to simply present the already public information in relative context via the major media.

    For example, how much did it cost the Government to create the anthrax letter threat against the News Media while probably paying someone a good deal to do it in such a manner to assure disconnection from the government.... and of course it was determined to have come from a US based US military base....as there had to be just the right amount of connection to properly threaten the media..

    So in regard to a trillion dollars... that's clearly enough money for anyone to notice that money like that doesn't just appear from nowhere and then vanish back into nowhere...

    The players... Minimum investment... 1 billion... enron, worldcome, etc... were the obvious losers. The winners... easy come easy go.... the dot com boom and bust was on the winners side.... needing a place to invest the winfall....

    World Trade Center (not the first attempt to bring it down!!!) ... the Pentagon and .... The white Horse... uh house...

    Politically controlled military to back a wrongful world stock market manipulation.

    Don't believe me?

    Do a google Search on "Trillion dollar bet" and read the transcript.

    Screw others and you will fear and suffer revenge...and in the process perhaps get overly aggressive in your paranoia ....just where are the WMD iraq was supposed to have? What about the weapons of mass destruction of wrongful world economic manipulation?

    China wasn't effected because they don't play the stock market....

    There is more!!!

    What the World Wants is not obscene war spendings...but real solutions to real world problems And we do have the knowledge, manpower and natural resources to do it.

    So why is it not happening?

    Ben Franklin "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    And FDR used it in his "four freedoms" speech..

    Of course it cost more to keep up with your lies, because telling the truth is just plain without the need for spending extra energy in keeping the lies in order..

  43. Loose lips sink ships! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "since nobody wants to be the one who releases data that turns out to help an enemy launch the next Pearl Harbor or 9/11 attack."

    Whoa, dude. Tell me again about this pearl harbor attack?

  44. Re:TOTAL NONSENSE! by Halfbaked+Plan · · Score: 1

    Yep. Sheer ignorance. It's terrible how ignorant people who disagree with you are. And a shame you don't have the far-reaching power to 'educate' them.

    --
    resigned
  45. Never mind by inode_buddha · · Score: 1

    Never mind how many dollars it costs to get or give secrets. What about how many *lives*?

    --
    C|N>K
  46. Short Attention Span Theatre by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
    Last year, federal agencies spent a record $148 creating and storing new secrets for each $1 spent declassifying old secrets
    I really need to start reading the whole headline.
  47. Re: How's the tinfoil hat working? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    [cough]crackpot[/cough]

  48. Soldiers are safer now that it is known! by Chris+Burke · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Both sides have valid points, but now consider this: Our enemies get a hold of just exactly how that body armor is flawed and use that against our men and women deployed.

    They already have been using this flaw against us simply by shooting and killing our soldiers! The flaw exists regardless of whether or not it is publicized. Do you think the bullets have to know that the armor failed ballistic tests before they can penetrate it?

    The only reason to keep that information secret is to avoid political embarassment at the expense of soldiers' safety.

    In the .pdf where the body armor was mentioned, it says that after the results were attained through the FOIA and was going to be released in newspapers, the government reversed the decision and recalled the faulty body armor.

    Thus freeing the information actually resulted in our soldiers being safer because they are no longer saddled with equipment that won't protect them!

    This is completely typical of the way this war has been fought. Decisions that endanger our soldiers are made, and either concealed or backed up with bullshit. Guess what? Reality doesn't care what story you tell to cover your bad decision; your soldiers still die. But the cover up is never about making our soldiers safer anyway. It's about politics. Our war is being run by politics, and politics is the opposite of reality. War is not.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  49. Re:Way to go mods!! by ScentCone · · Score: 1

    I'm sorry, but it's simply a truth that the current administration is far more secretive than most.

    Most? How about at the height of either World War, or the Cold War? Nonsense. And it's a simple truth that the very nature and volume of the information that the government produces and processes - including while performing vital and extremely sensitive duties - is exploding. It's not as much paperwork, but more data. What's a secure document to you? A cc of an e-mail? Depends on where you work and what you do within that structure.

    And, of course, we're now dealing with entirely new requirements for counter-espionage. Follow some of the recent coverage of how loosely, poorly, incorrectly, or not classified stuff is now being mined by teams of Chinese hackers to stitch together a wider and deeper understanding of all sorts of capabilities, techniques, and strategies on our part. That sort of thing is completely changing the info security landscape, and the need to secure it.

    Saying that one administration is working in the White House while the many pieces of the government that have to worry about security act to avoid leaks that tip off bad guys to things like communications capabilities, networks with other diplomatic partners, business partnerships in countries where such relationships are priceless to US interests but slow to appeal to some elements in those countries... all the while forgetting that these practices (and necessesities) have some inertia (from LONG before the current administration), and are impacted by new developments (the internet, as it relates to international relations and espionage, just for one... or only-semi-friendly relationships with newly IT-oriented countries like China... or newly networked/digitized agencies and government operations across the board), well - it's apples and oranges, comparing the current moment in time with any other.

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  50. Yet more opportunities for leftist paranoids... by suitepotato · · Score: 0, Troll

    I love how quickly and easily all of the myriad failings of the Clinton administration in the area of intelligence, and all the times they classified information, are conveniently forgotten and the sum total of all use, abuse, and misuse of classification quickly and hypocritically glossed over and forgotten.

    Let us not forget that Mr. Habitrail for Humanity, President Jimmy Carter, went from claiming he saw a UFO and if elected he'd declassify anything and everything on the subject and promptly acted as though he never saw anything or said anything from the moment of his first preparatory intelligence briefing.

    Exactly how much stuff did he declassify about Area 51, Lockheed's skunkworks, experimental aircraft development, etc? Oh yeah, NONE. To this day, it is still Shoot to Kill territory out there. If there's no need for classification, then why is that classified?

    For that matter, during that period when the leftist Democrats were supposed to be so much more Soviet-friendly than anyone else and more commited to unilateral defense self-destruction, what of our nation's nuclear weapons program was declassified and released?

    There are reasons, for whatever the party or politics of the administration, for classification and secrets. There are things that exist in this world, things which have happened, which if the public of the country and the world knew would lead to upheval and damage worse than anything we suffer by not knowing.

    I can think of a dozen things in my own life I wish I'd never known and for which I won't sleep well ever again. But for those with even a shred of conscience, the price of knowledge of some things is to be forever peturbed by them and the only release is death. I feel for those who have to keep those secrets who can never again know ignorance.

    For the shallow out there who need everything as an irreverent joke, consider what you'd give to never have seen your dad step naked out of the shower or your mother's c-section scar or your grandmother needing a sponge bath. Some things you just don't need to know or see.

    --
    If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
    1. Re:Yet more opportunities for leftist paranoids... by learn+fast · · Score: 1

      I love how quickly and easily all of the myriad failings of the Clinton administration in the area of intelligence, and all the times they classified information, are conveniently forgotten and the sum total of all use, abuse, and misuse of classification quickly and hypocritically glossed over and forgotten.

      Download the PDF from the article summary. Go to page 5. You should see a graph of the number of documents classified and declassified.

      Notice how from 1994-2000 the number of declassified documents surges well above the number of classified documents, then drops back down again?

  51. Re:TOTAL NONSENSE! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't feel sad, that last post easily surpasses their arrogance and spices it with more than a hint of low self-esteem. Sounds as if you'll always be too smart to learn anything you don't already know.

  52. Nothing odd about the figure. by raehl · · Score: 2, Funny

    Steps for submitting an article on Slashdot:

    1) Figure out what you want people to believe.

    (The government is hoarding secrets!)

    2) Find the single figure that appears to most severely support your position.

    ($148 spent classifying secrets per $1 spent declassifying secrets.)

    3) Hope nobody notices that your figure is utter bullshit.

  53. Skew the facts a little by Transcendent · · Score: 1

    Last year, federal agencies spent a record $148 creating and storing new secrets for each $1 spent declassifying old secrets.

    I guess it costs more money to make paper and write on it than it does to hand out existing documents.

    And from the article:

    Overall, the government spent $7.2 billion in 2004 stamping 15.6 million documents "top secret," "secret" or "confidential." That almost doubled the 8.6 million new documents classified as recently as 2001.

    That's some expensive ink. Maybe they should refill their cartriges... oh wait, that's against the law now.

    I have yet to find in the article or any link provided in the summary as to how this magic figure is relevant.

    "These numbers show we are going in the wrong direction,"

    How do the numbers show this? Why is it the wrong direction? To me, it sounds like a group of people agasint government classification of information just spewing arbitrary facts to their liking, and formulating some sort of conclusion out of it that supports their biased oppinions.

  54. MIT Institute?! by SunPin · · Score: 1
    MIT Institute Professor Chomsky has spent countless...

    Does this MIT Institute have any relation to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology?

    --
    Laws are for people with no friends.
  55. Hiding? by statusbar · · Score: 1

    If they aren't doing anything wrong, then what does the government have to hide?

    --jeff++

    --
    ipv6 is my vpn
  56. Do you play poker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You've got an open invitation to our table.

    1. Re:Do you play poker? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      except life is far more complex than poker ... or is that your only skill?

  57. Differences in costs. by Randseed · · Score: 0, Redundant
    This has already been pretty much hinted at already, but it bears restatement. Mod me Redundant if it really annoys you; my karma is impenetrable.

    Classifying something costs a lot more than declassifying it. To classify something, you get the data, then have to figure out whether to classify it. We're even so far. But then you have to protect the data, and there's an associated cost with that. Add to all that security clearance procedures,and it gets pretty expensive really fast.

    Just the process of getting a security clearance is expensive. For the low level clearances, it isn't that expensive. They just check you against terrorist lists, check your criminal history, and call up the people you list. When you start applying for higher clearances, they personally interview people, and that's when it starts getting expensive: you're paying for the lodging and travel for the FBI guy, his salary, and all the bureaucratic nonsense that goes along with it.

  58. Security Through Obscurity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What you're talking about is security through obscurity. It has its place, but it's much less effective than true security. (In this example, true security might be attained by replacing the flawed body armor.)

    The problem with security through obscurity is that it's not very hard to crack -- and once it's broken, it's broken completely and serves only to fool the practitioner into thinking he has some security left.

  59. The reason by suricatta · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'd tell you why the government spends so much on keeping secrets, but it's classified.

  60. You expected generosity? by algf2004 · · Score: 1
    federal agencies spent a record $148 creating and storing new secrets

    Because everyone knows that the government would have generously given that money to the needy people otherwise...

  61. Depends on the definition. by C10H14N2 · · Score: 1

    When people think "protecting government secrets" they immediately jump to Hollywood spy movie scenarios, not realizing that such a classification encompasses almost everything imaginable in government these days. Hell, I wouldn't be suprised if you need a clearance to clean the toilets at the Department of Agriculture.

  62. Re: How's the tinfoil hat working? by 3seas · · Score: 1

    following the money works far better than your tinfoil hat dillusion.

  63. paypal me 148 buck and I promise not to tell by bxbaser · · Score: 1

    anyone.
    I can keep a secret

  64. Re:selling secrets by Tarwn · · Score: 3, Informative

    I'm thinking it likely had to do with the fact that the Committee on Government Secrecy was enacted during that period, following the end of the cold war, leading to the 25 year rule and the release of tons of material previously marked as secret.
    From Wikipedia: In 1994 it was estimated that the United States Government had over 1.5 billion pages of classified material that was 25 years old and older.

    And if we want to stretch things a bit, i guess we could give Clinton credit for creating this commission (though the only creation reference I have found so far is that it was created by congress, not the president)...

    Unfortunatly, Clinton replaced the previous executive order on classification with Executive Order 12958 which, from the way it sounds in Wikipedia, actually drastically increased the number of people that could mark something as secret. Give it a little time to ramp up to speed and for govt. employees and contractors to get used to their new found powers, and suddenly we have growth again.
    The funniest thing is, knowing how things play out in some office atmospheres (and the number of people with the capability to classify material), theres probably a monthly pool going on in more than one place on who can classify the most stuff in a month or who can classify the most mundane piece of informaiton ever...we're going to get to this stuff in 25 years and find out someone classified their greasy post-it note with a lunch order on it... :P

    --
    Whee signature.
  65. Thank-you, Mr. Blue Pill. by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1
    I can think of a dozen things in my own life I wish I'd never known and for which I won't sleep well ever again. But for those with even a shred of conscience, the price of knowledge of some things is to be forever peturbed by them and the only release is death. I feel for those who have to keep those secrets who can never again know ignorance.

    For the shallow out there who need everything as an irreverent joke, consider what you'd give to never have seen your dad step naked out of the shower or your mother's c-section scar or your grandmother needing a sponge bath. Some things you just don't need to know or see.


    This is the pure essence of the Wrong kind of thinking. It is FEAR and the need to control that which causes fear.

    There isn't a SINGLE thing I would rather not have known in my life. --And I have seen and know some extraordinarily horrible things; I know how bad the dark side can get.

    Guess what? This does not take away from my ability to love and to shine and to exist in a joyful state. KNOWLEDGE is what makes people strong and able; knowledge gives you the option to choose and to overcome your little quirks of weakness. --To seek out your inner patches of darkness and destroy them.

    Seeing your father naked? Seeing scar tissue on your mother? Why is your father's body frightening to you? He's human like everybody else. You should love and honor him regardless of whether he is clothed or naked. Your mother's scar tissue is evidence of great trials she had to go through. How can you not be proud of her for that? Your parents are people, and they are not perfect and their journeys through life are difficult, but they are making the journey and they deserve your love and respect for that; not your fear and disgust.

    And yes, both the Democrats and Republicans have kept secrets. Big deal. I don't fall for the "Good Cop Bad Cop" game. It's for the birds.


    -FL

    Those who have the courage of a Lion will not have the fate of a mouse.

  66. 1 step ahead by usageman · · Score: 1

    The cost will always go up and continue to rise for secerecy.And new technologies and information will continue to be suppressed in order to keep the Government one step ahead of its own society and the worlds as well. The Government will always need more money and will always find a new tax or up a current tax in order to pay for and to hide it's secerets.

  67. Faulty logic by Chmcginn · · Score: 1
    Yes, actually, the response plans ARE classified. For example DHS, FEMA and others have made obtuse references to "a nationwide system of temporary shelters...and stockpiles of supplies," but Ridge, Chertoff, Rice declined to elaborate in a CNN investigative piece in March '05.

    Just because they didn't elaborate where each shelter or stockpile is doesn't mean it's classified. There's lots of information that's not supposed to be handed out to everyone, but isn't under the protection of required levels of security clearance.

    Don't get me wrong, I do agree with you that they should disseminate this information ahead of time in the case of a disaster. On the other hand, I do understand, from the "everyone is out to get us" point of view that many in the government have, why they wouldn't want a web site where you could see the complete list of every emergency stockpile.

    --
    Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
  68. Experience with Government Secrets by SeanDuggan · · Score: 1
    For what it's worth, I'm a DoD employee with the Air Force in the area of measurement calibration. While I have a secret clearance, I have yet to have to use it. We get them basically so that we can access equipment that has frequencies related to radar, IFF, etc. Most of the time, we just abstract it out and let the people on-base plug in their secret frequencies. *wry grin* Led to one of my co-workers nearly getting tackled by MP when he accidentally figured out the secret radar code. That's the last time that base will try to hide their frequency by giving a range that was plus or minus a set number...

    Supposedly, the greater danger is amalgating publically known information. If you read the public pages of various Air Force bases, you can infer a lot about what's going on and when. It's like the "pizza delivery" indication of national crisis. At one point, news outlets watched for pizza deliveries to the Pentagon because when there was something big going down, pizza delivery would spike as people stayed late to work on the problem. Supposedly the Pentagon now randomly orders out for large amounts of pizza just to throw off such news outlets.

    --
    This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
    1. Re:Experience with Government Secrets by C10H14N2 · · Score: 1

      Hehehe... ...suffice it to say, erm, DHS is quite a similar experience. ...but I'm not one to gossip, so you didn't hear that from me.

  69. He wasn't by toby · · Score: 1

    Clinton wasn't actually impeached. Maybe you were thinking of Nixon.

    And yes, the rest of the world shares your hope that somebody - anybody - in the US will wake up and get rid of your current administration.

    --
    you had me at #!