Slashdot Mirror
Singapore Bloggers Charged Under Sedition Act
ChannelNewsAsia is reporting that for the first time in at least 10 years Singapore has invoked the sedition act and charged two local bloggers for posting racist comments on an online forum. From the article: 'Said Singaporean blogger Benjamin Lee (Mr Miyagi):" A lot of them will be looking at their blogs and wondering if they made any legally seditious remarks. I think because of the way this will be played up, it's negative publicity for the Singapore blogging community."'
Is this the link?
--
Superb hosting 4800MB Storage, 120GB bandwidth, $7,95.
Kunowalls!!! Random sexy wallpapers (NSFW!).
Hosting 20G hd, 1Tb bw! ssh $7.95
Conflict in my central processor...
Racism...
Freedom of speech...
Freedom of speech overrides natural desire to slowly boil racists...
*back to sleep*
You can't talk about Wikipedia's flaws on Wikipedia
Hello, Comcast?
I want my ChannelNewsAsia!
Or a link. Whichever.
"If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid." - Epictetus
Comment removed based on user account deletion
And does racist speech = hate speech?
This is an honest question. As much as I hate racism and hate speech, I have to admit that Dave Chapelle, whose comedy many times has to do with race, is one of the best/original comedians out there today.
Of course his is meant for comedy rather than hate, but where does one draw the line?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
Without that much information, am I supposed to just believe the charges? (Yeah, right!)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Look, this is a city-state who canes graphiti painters. You know they'll not be looking too kindly on seditious postings.
Wonder if that could happen here?
What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
Hardly!
My government will see it as a shining example that American law should follow. Not only should restrictions on legal speech on the internet be made (and they are, it seems), but any anti-american, anti-(Christian)-God, anti-business comments should be grounds for criminal legal prosecution. Hopefully my government will take this and run with it, assigning a properly trained internet taskforce to find and arrest these intellectual thought-terrorists that plague the internet, right away!
What does NSFW mean? :)
(click)
HOLY SHIT! Not Safe For Work!
Good thing it's lunch time and nobody's here.
We have always been at war with Eurasia!
They are both being charged with committing a seditious act, by promoting feelings of ill-will and hostility between races in Singapore.
If this law were ever passed in the US, there would be more people in jail than out of it. Most News commentators gone, a lot of music illegal, etc.
I know this sounds trite, but I would rather have racists and other vermin allowed to be out in the open so at least we know who they are and can keep tabs on them. Once you force them underground, they become more dangerous...
What scares the crap out of me is the global nature of the net- and I am worried that larger corps like Yahoo (as in China) will get used to cooperating with the gov'ts in so called restrictive countries, and start giving info freely to good old uncle sam. er- wait- I am pretty sure they already do....
And All I Ask is a Tall Ship And a Star to Steer Her By
Remember: It's only sedition/rebellion if you lose.
No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
I didn't know stating racial divisiveness equated sedition anywhere! Methinks this is negative publicity for Singapore as a country (by those with a Bill of Rights). This will have a chilling effect on the Singapore blogging community and cause a permament subtle change (as the establishment of limits tends to do) in Singapore society, but it won't be looked down upon. Why would you look down upon a community for limits unwillingly placed upon it?
/ct/ls
Ew. Article is getting pounded (yes, I actually READ them)...here it is in its entirety.
---
Two bloggers charged under Sedition Act over racist remarks
By Pearl Forss, Channel NewsAsia
SINGAPORE : Two bloggers have been charged with sedition for posting racist comments online.
This is the first time bloggers are being charged in Singapore and it is sending shockwaves through the local blogging community.
Lawyers say the last time the sedition act was invoked in Singapore was at least 10 years ago.
Twenty-five-year-old Nicholas Lim Yew and 27-year-old Benjamin Koh Song Huat are being accused of posting racist comments on an online forum and on their blog site.
They are both being charged with committing a seditious act, by promoting feelings of ill-will and hostility between races in Singapore.
They were not represented by defence lawyers and were granted bail of S$10,000 each.
This charge came as a shock to many in the blogging community.
Said Singaporean blogger Benjamin Lee (Mr Miyagi):" A lot of them will be looking at their blogs and wondering if they made any legally seditious remarks. I think because of the way this will be played up, it's negative publicity for the Singapore blogging community."
"Currently if you surf the net you will come across a lot of bloggers making such comments. You will probably see a drop in such cases henceforth. At the moment I am not aware of any cases except of a case in Iran where bloggers are charged. But Iran has a different legal system from Singapore," said Leonard Loo, managing partner of Leonard Loo & Co Advocates & Solicitors.
Channel NewsAsia understands that the Media Development Authority had asked host servers to remove a racist blog from the web.
Police are now investigating this matter.
While many racist blogs by Singaporeans can be found online, the blogging community is also quick to criticize any racist comments.
Channel NewsAsia has received many emails from viewers informing us about a few racist sites.
Viewers said they were "appalled as well as disappointed that a Singaporean could condemn" other fellow Singaporeans of a different race.
Lawyers warn that anybody who forwards seditious remarks to others via email can also be charged with abetment.
The case is expected to be heard in court again on September 21.
A person is deemed to have committed an offence under the Sedition Act if he performs any act which has a seditious tendency, or conspires with any person to do so.
It is also an offence to utter any seditious words or to print, publish, sell, distribute, reproduce or import any seditious publication.
First time offenders can be fined up to S$5,000, or jailed up to three years, or both.
For subsequent offences, they can be jailed up to five years and have their seditious publications forfeited and destroyed. - CNA
Copyright © 2005 MCN International Pte Ltd
I am not surprised in the slightest. Having been to Singapore many times, it is a VERY "tight" country. If you break the rules, the punishment is quite severe.
Drug dealers = death penalty. Vandalism = caning (remember that?). No selling gum. No chewing gum (at least in public). No joke.
While I don't think the totalitarianism is required, I will say that Singapore is VERY clear about the rules. Everybody knows them and everybody knows that if you break them, you do so at your own risk. They don't seem to have as many ambiguous laws as here in the US so it seems to work pretty well. The fact that some bloggers would post "maybe it will get me in trouble" stuff, is very ballsy.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
for non-southeast asian slashdotters:
singapore is an outpost of chinese in a malay region
it is a country independent of malaysia simply because the chinese there feared dilution of their power by malays
there is a history of friction between the chinese merchant class and the local malay population throughout the region, actually very similar to the resentment europeans had for the jewish merchant class that led to so much racially motivated nastiness there for centuries
malays and filipinos to this day complain of how they are treated by the chinese in singapore, who they say view them as little more than domestic servants or coolies
in the 1960s, under the guise of fighting communism, indonesians slaughtered thousands simply for having chinese ancestry... and confiscated their businesses
so maybe some of you who are very idealistically attached to the concept of free speech, without any mitigating conditions, perhaps you can at least understand why singapore would be so interested on clamping down on hate speech in its territory: it's not a big country, and it must remain at peace with its huge malay neighbors, at whom this hate speech is directed by some really stupid chinese bigotted bloggers
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
They are outrageously socially conservative there, I would touch the country with a Windows-ME manual. The only reason anybody cares about them is that they are a former western colony and show little to no independance and sovereignty and joyfully sell out their citizens to american/western corporate interests.
Where is here???? Im sorry but Im not a pyshic. Im not going to assume you are from the United States especially with such an odd statement.
Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
Lincoln instituted a type of sedition act in the USA, as did FDR.
For the record I didn't like either of those presidents.
Latewire
I think its respectable for a country to punish people for seditious behavior, if done appropriately.
Anyone have a link?
I don't know, the anonymous posts thing seems to have worked for the people at ChannelNewsAsia. They managed to report this without being tied directly to it by a link. That seems fairly anonymous to me. Their server won't even melt down.
n : an illegal action inciting resistance to lawful authority and tending to cause the disruption or overthrow of the government.
racism
n : discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race.
No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
sedition
.
Acts that incite rebellion or civil disorder against an established government.
thanks,
In case anyone was wondering. Like me... Is this what Brits call "treason"? Except that treason is against the monarchy, and sedition is against the government (elected by the people who might rise up against them and boot them out)
www.hrw.org/reports/2001/prison/
Singapore Canes 1000 people per year. About 22% of all use inmates are raped at some point in their stays in prison. Which is really the less humane society?
In an article about this Singapore sedition story, they report "Lawyers warn that anybody who forwards seditious remarks to others via email can also be charged with abetment". Maybe that's why the submitter didn't include a link to such an article (probably not). Maybe that's why the CNA article doesn't link to, or quote, the allegedly seditious/racist published remarks.
Whatever the reason, the thousands of people across the Web hearing about this story are doubtless feeling "disconnection anxiety" without a link to the disputed original content. We've already passed the point of no return for global communictions, where the only remedy for adverse public expressions is more, opposing or mitigating, public expressions. The cat's out of the bag, not only on this story, but on the global public's expectations of information. Even if those Singaporeans are racists, or seditionists, people need to know what they said in order to judge them for ourselves. Impeding that info gives the public two counts on which to judge the Singaporean government.
--
make install -not war
Canada, UK, France, Germany, and soon to follow, the US. Who pushed "hate speech" laws into effect in those countries and are the ones who have pushed it in the US? I'll give you a hint: they think they're special and that you are cattle. If you say you don't believe in the holocost, off to jail with you.
They could have been caught chewing gum in Singapore, then they would have really been in trouble...
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Although another poster claimed friction by the 'Chinese' class, this is a country that claims four official languages, and is a melting pot on the order of Hong Kong, or Bangkok.
Holding this contentious group together is a miracle given the tensions in the region. The economic success of Singapore is legendary in a region where its neighbors routinely slaughter each other- Indonesians with rebels, Malaysians with sectarian strife, Thai with sectarian strife, and so on. Singapore has to hold together ethnic Chinese, Malay, Tamils, as well as expats from all over the region, Euros, and so on. They take racial prejudice very seriously, and if they didn't they'd have bedlam.
Yes, Singapore is draconian in other ways, and is also known as the "Fine City" where every offense is a S$500 fine. They execute drug smugglers. So, don't smuggle drugs there. It's a follow-the-rules place. Not much crap is put up with. But it's not a police state, it just lacks a lot of democracy and free speech. This seems to suit the population, who are the envy of all of their neighbors. I've traveled the region many times; Singapore is the 52nd US State (after British Columbia)
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
If a few Chinese moonbats ranting about the Malays' alleged racial inferiority is enough to spark a conflict, the people of Singapore should just go ahead and prepare for war because clearly their neighbors are itching for a fight. Besides, the only way to get an honest dialog going is to let people speak their minds. If people are forced to censor themselves so as to not offend the people they already consider inferior then guess what you've done? You've just made them even more convicted in their racism!
Yes, that's right. If you take a group of people who already view themselves as racially, not culturally, superior to another and force them to limit their liberties so as to not offend the group they condescend to, their natural reaction will be to condescend even more because "clearly, those people are so weak that they can't even handle a bad attitude."
Conflicts like this usually have very, very deep roots and it never ceases to amaze me how American left-liberals can never fail to suggest to change a group's natural reaction instead of accepting it. Hate to break it to you people, but the reality is that the strong do not typically respect those that are weaker than they are. That is life. You do not expect a lion to respect a terrier, so why expect a group that is very economically and militarily powerful in their region to respect a group that is by comparison very weak? Are we not animals as well, and do not both religion and science agree that the strong does not respect the weak?
Yes, let's encourage them to reevaluate their attitudes and seek to become better people by accepting others' weakness. Do as the Bible idealizes, and encourage the lion to have the strength of will and character to lay down with the sheep. But do not think that it is natural, and do not think that a weekly class on "tolerance" is going to make them like those they tend to look down on. Besides, technically they already show tolerance toward them because tolerance simply means live-and-let live. It doesn't imply you like them or want anything to do with them. It means you tolerate them, which is basically what most people do to small children who behave like brats or yappy little dogs. What they need is brotherly/sisterly reconciliation between their groups, not some half-assed bullshit called tolerance.
Click here or a puppy gets stomped!
Because the Republicans would never stifle free-speech.
Before you point out that the Dems did more or less the same thing, I'm not even attempting to exonerate them. It's actually possible to see the flaws in both parties.
However, from my perception, the Republican track record does seem worse than the Democratic one. Many right-wingers like to talk about the shackles of political correctness, but have no problem with calling you anti-American if you point out that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11.
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
If these bloggers were insiting hate against another group, how is this different from the Al-Qaeda's insiting hatred against Americans? Surely those who want to promote hatred should be stopped.
It is not our abilities that show what we truly are... it is our choices.
I actually had somebody browse my company's site on Lynx just this past weekend, It is currently holding the coveted position of "last place" with an astonishing 2 hits. A close competitor is the WebTV browser, with 3 hits.
-gjr
Just remember...
Wherever you go, there you are.
Malaysia kicked Singapore out.
Singapore *wanted* to be part of Malaysia (and it was for a brief period), provided Malaysia guaranteed EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL RACES. Unfortunately, Chinese were, and still are, disciminated in Malaysia in jobs, contracts, university places, etc.
Malaysia believed Singapore would bend over and accept anything after they were kicked out since they were a small island with no natural resources. Well, 40 years have passed and Singapore is still going strong, so that didn't work I guess.
screw them BOTH! The bloggers for their idiotic racist comments, _AND_ the govt for controlling freedom of speech.
Ta-da, problem solved.
NEXT!
His blog can be found here and the post where he talks about the charges can be found here.
I, for one, welcome our seditious overlords!
Oh, wait...
With the amount of flash and other crap on the web these days, I wouldn't call that a downside.
I am trolling
Even then you'll be accused of excluding someone from your conversation because of race.
Welcome to the Tyranny of the Easily Offended.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Uhhh, you know, I can go to al jazeera, ogrish, etc. and find those images and view with impunity.
I can say this war is stupid.
I can say racist things and not worry about going to jail.
Just because certain parts of the government like to ignore the constitution, does not mean the rest of us do as well.
Yes... but do they run Linux there?
Internet = Free Speech. If a nation doesn't want it's citizens practicing free speech, then they shouldn't allow internet access at all. (Unless of course they like being viewed as complete hypcrites.)
I know I certainly won't be buying any more of their jams and jellies...
Seeing bad movies only encourages them. Watch responsibly
Conflicts like this usually have very, very deep roots and it never ceases to amaze me how American left-liberals can never fail to suggest to change a group's natural reaction instead of accepting it.
left-liberals: are those people who believe in a world free of racism?
"a group's natural reaction": what is this group? people of a certain ethnic background? what is their "natural reaction": to see as inferior another ethnic group?
"instead of accepting it": accepting what, exactly?
you sound like a racist
so to prove you aren't a racist, define your terms, because they sure seem like code speak
because otherwise, i love how you posit anyone who doesn't believe in a world without racism as a "left-liberal" when the truth is that the belief in a world without racism is one shared by the left, the middle, and the right
i think even some of those on the far right would be uncomfortable with your words
so: nice try demagogue, but no one is buying your propaganda here
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Sedition laws are almost as reprehensible as racism, so I see little reason to choose sides here.
But, bloggers should expect no free pass compared with other means of publication. The laws that apply to publishing -- sanctions and protecions -- ought to apply to every blogger just as they do to the major commericial players.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
This is exactly the kind of "free speech" liberals want in this country. Granted, racism is patently wrong, morally and ethically. However, here in the U.S. you're labelled racist if you even do honest debate on racial issues.
Their loss, really...
I think if you were to confuse "graffiti" with "firebombing SUVs for the ELF" in Singapore you would receive much more than 8 years. You'd be lucky to live.
I dunno, go to Singapore and give it a try and see.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
Well this is the first time the sedition act has been invoked in the past decade, and I can't believe nobody's made racist comments in that time, so I don't believe this is as common as you are making out.
From the article:
If that applies to racist comments, then the law is ambiguous enough to apply to practically any action.
Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
After being defeated in 2000, 2002, and 2004, the Anti-Defamation League's "Big Brother" federal "anti-hate" bill, with title changed to "Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2005," H.R. 259, (previously called the Local Law Enforcement Enhancement Act, LLEEA) was reintroduced to the House of Representatives on January 6, 2005 by Ms. Jackson-Lee (D. TX). It is now in the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime.
Both Houses of Congress last year made it clear that they overwhelmingly approve this bill: the Senate voted 65 to 33 in its favor on June 15th; the House symbolically favored it 213 to 186 on September 28th. This means very rapid passage unless lovers of free speech protest now.
This massive Orwellian bill is the most dangerous legislation since the Federal Reserve Act of 1913; probably even more dangerous, since it will lead directly to establishment of a vast federal anti-hate bureaucracy like Canada's ending free speech.
This bill will empower the federal government to invade states' rights in "hate crimes" law enforcement, breaking down traditional states' rights protection from federal intervention.
It will also exponentially empower the federal "thought police" to enforce the working ADL/federal definition of "hate" as "bias against homosexuality." This twisted definition makes the Bible, with its bias against homosexuality, into "hate speech;" those who adhere to the biblical standard into "hate criminals."
The world has been aghast at how the Pennsylvania ADL hate laws could arrest and imprison eleven Christians for simply preaching the gospel at a "gay-pride" event, possibly sentencing them to 47 years in prison and $90,000.00 fine each.
Such power to arrest and imprison Christian and conservative "haters," including pro-lifers, writers and conservative talk-show hosts, will dramatically increase if the federal government, assisted by the ADL, locks up the whole nation under a massive "anti-hate" thought police-state.
Having been to Singapore many times, it is a VERY "tight" country. If you break the rules, the punishment is quite severe.
Back in 1993 William Gibson wrote an interesting piece on Singapore for Wired magazine: Disneyland With The Death Penalty
I visited Singapore about eight years ago. My impression was that the government put a lot of effort into keeping the ethnic tensions under control -- signs printed in three or four languages, pushes to make the population more "polite", I think that if the authoritarian government there let up, there would be some serious ethnic violence. Sad but true. I only hope that they can find a solution that allows them to live together peacefully without being under such a repressive regime.
Ignorance is the natural breeding ground of racism.
This means that you cannot combat racism by limiting information or expression. The only effective way you can combat racism is by countering it with good information-- demonstrating the racists wrong, rather than silencing them.
If you try to fight racism by silencing it, you are only hurting yourself in the long run. Even aside from the slippery slope problem, you inevitably wind up with a situation where the fact you are trying to silence these people brands them with a false stamp of legitimacy. The old "help help I'm being oppressed" thing is a powerful tool, even to those whose message is itself in favor of oppression; the racists can easily twist the fact the government is trying to silence them into an argument in their favor.
In the long run this just isn't helpful; it's like trying to put out a grease fire by pouring oil on it. No good will come of what Singapore is trying to do here, only collateral damage.
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Not so surprising that those slant-eyed rice-pickers would stoop to such levels.
Yeah, right on. The press obviously isn't showing dead bodies in news papers because President Chimp will charge them with sedition and throw them in jail for 3 years if they do.
Be for fucking real, honestly.
Nobody can seriously criticise Bush anymore because everybody ends up sounding like a fucking idiot because people like you go around blaming him for the stupidest irrelevant shit. gb2/dailykos
They have so many laws it takes them a while to get around to arresting people for all of them.
Importing anything with Chinese writing on it is illegal in Singapore. Importing chewing gum is illegal. Lots and lots of stuff is illegal in Singapore.
This is the country that jailed a Jehova's Witness missionary (little old lady, none the less) for holding classes. JW is a "banned" religion in Singapore. I believe the rationale was the conflict between Singapore's mandatory military service and the resusal to serve by JWs.
I flew thru there once and stayed at the Marriott in the airport while connecting the next day to Jakarta. My impression was it was a very, very neat, clean and orderly little corporate police state and I couldn't wait to get the hell out. Serious bad vibes.
-Charles
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Yeah, but are the inmates ordered to be raped by the judges? No, I didn't think so.
About 22% of all use inmates are raped
Um...
I was a member on an online forum that was infested with Nazi-types, who kept opening topics that denied the Holocaust - when pressed, their fallback position was "Well, it happened, but wasn't as bad as they say."
So I set up a similar topic denying the US Civil War, with the same fallback position.
The Nazis were laughed at until they stopped coming back.
Laughter is an effective tool.
You can't talk about Wikipedia's flaws on Wikipedia
I do, however, tire of people "playing the race card", which IMHO is just as bad as the racism itself. It detracts from the situations where the complaints are real.
Sometimes it's hard to tell when a complaint is legitimate. I saw a beligerant looking bum on the street arguing with police, asking: "Why are you hassling me? Is it because I'm black? What law did I break?"
I thought he was playing the race card until I heard the indignant answer: "You crossed the street against the light!" Both officers then followed him down the street, arguing with him.
I stood on that streetcorner, shaking my head, and counted ten people illegally crossing the street against the lights in the space of two minutes. Later that week, I watched a police officer do it.
Were the police being racist in their (apparently) selective enforcement of the law? Or did they enforce the law against the only person they saw breaking it? If so, was it because he was a bum, or because his skin was too dark? I'm still not sure, but I admit I lost confidence in my local police force when I saw it happen.
--
AC
This is either FLAMEBAIT -1
or INSIGHTFUL SARCASM +1.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
My dad travels there for work quite frequently, and he calls it a fine city. Do this, get a fine. Do that, get a fine. :)
Only one of the accused was a blogger. The other was posting to a forum. The sites are http://www.doggiesite.com/ and http://www.upsaid.com/.
a rged-with-sedition-for-racist.html.
The racist posts in question have been deleted but the fallout can be seen here and here. The deleted blog used to be found here. A nice aggregation of analysis and comments can be found here http://singaporeangle.blogspot.com/2005/09/two-ch
For example:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/katrina/story/0,16441,1
Or for myopic xenophobic Murricans:
Even the lapdog domestic press can't hold back the truth:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9287434/
What the HELL does it take? Clinton ran a reasonably competent government, and the hypocritical neo-con PseudoChristian fuckers lambasted him for a girl under the desk! The US starts wars based on a pile of transparent lies, and all that matters is "loyalty", and any questioning of authority and their version of 'Truth' is seditious treason! Hello? Mr Orwell? You can stop spinning now!
you should have seen some of the online comments after the NOLA disaster.
ah, well.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Of course, what is more pathetic is that the West should stand up to such governments, but the West has been taken over by corporate lackeys who are only interested in bottom lines.
"We don't like what you do, but we like what you pay."
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Now you promise you won't steal my idea. Right?
Get your Unix fortune now!
There isn't a lot of space to drive cars. Tons of them on the road as is. They rate cars by engine size, the bigger the engine, the higher the "Tax" is. I belive my RX-8 costs around $80,000 over there.
At any rate, unlike here in america where mass transit is a joke, you can get around quite easily by bus, taxi, and MRT. I know because I got around that way for the 8 or so years I lived there (I was 12 at the time)
SearchIRC - Now with live chat directory!
In America it's about the individual. What are your rights? In Singapore it's about the greater good. What is good for the country and for everyone. Less focus is made on serving the needs of one over all else. People assume Singapore is communist, but the officals are publically elected. It's all about culture and their viewpoint.
SearchIRC - Now with live chat directory!
First time offenders can be fined up to S$5,000, or jailed up to three years, or both.
So the bail is twice the fine. Interesting. Guess they really want to ensure that the fine gets paid.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
But are those rapes systematically ignored by the prison system and your hallowed judges? YES.
argumentum ad fallacium: Fallacy of defining a fallacy which allows one to dismiss the argument in question.
Yes, we are.
Fortunately, we also have something most animals do not: the ability to reason. Unfortunately, many of us fail to use this ability (or in some cases, lack it entirely)...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
Singapore is a prosperous society with a government (a parliamentary democracy) that is generally considered one of the least corrupt in the world. It is prosperous, modern, clean, and safe.
I have visited Singapore a few times, and my impression is that they have been far more successful at integrating different races, cultures, and ethnic groups into their society than the US. I don't like restrictions on free speech, and I doubt anything like that would make much of a difference here, but they are a different society, they have the right to self-determination, and whatever they are doing seems to be working for them.
So, keep that in mind before criticizing Singapore, and perhaps worry more about our domestic racial problems than restrictions on free speech in Singapore. If anything, we could learn something from Singapore.
DEATH TO ALL INTOLERANT PEOPLE!!!
John
I agree he supported terrorists in other parts of the world, used gas on his own (Kurdish) people, and deserved no better treatment than we gave him. In short, he was a very, very bad man.
However, it would behoove us to remember what has happened in the past when we've taken it upon ourselves to "encourage" regime change.
Short version:
Ignoring our history, it seems like things can only get better in Iraq with Saddam out of the way, and I sincerely hope that in 5-10 years you can tell me that you told me so.
Of course, I can't finish this comment without pointing out this gem. By your logic, it would seem that those who supported Saddam can also be blamed for 9/11.
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
US, obiously.
Maybe he just had a politcal ox to grind.
(founded 95,000,000 yrs ago, very space opera)
Aren't they all mostly asian? How can they be racist against each other?
You'll still have most of the media. Or haven't you noticed?
Where i still have freedom of speech.
...
As long as i dont offend anyone, say something obscene, tell you how to build a bomb, insult a sitting congressmen..
Hmmmm
---- Booth was a patriot ----
My wife, who is an American, is in graduate school in Singapore. She is studying Theater there. She is not at all a racist, but she is very opinionated. Holding her tongue was never exactly her stong suit... If you are not allowed to criticise others because of differences in their race, what else are you not allowed to criticise? Are you allowed to challenge people's cutural beliefs about religon, or would that upset people too much? Could you, for example, air the cultural equivelent of the Last Temptation of Christ in Singapore? I hope that she will be allright...
Randy.Flood@RHCE2B.COM
Is this really the first time that slashdot has promoted racism? Not really a core value that we want to hang onto in this age in the US, or anywhere else in the world for that matter.
that the strong does not respect the weak?
Well I'm aware of many symbiotic relationships in nature, even between what may appear to be parasites and their hosts. Also science recognises the nurturing role of parents as central to evolutionary development.
And as for religion, blessed indeed are the meek for they shall inherit the Earth. And who, if she exists, is stronger than God?
Little buggers referred to a whitey as "round eyes".
What has become of civilised discourse?
most Americans (and most politicians) generally realize these laws are bad and our country shouldn't have ever passed them.
I think you would be terribly surprised at the level of ignorance about history and the shallowness of political thought among Americans - both among the general public and politicians.
I'm willing to bet that if you go to any street corner in any US city and ask 100 people a question avbout the sedition acts from the civil war or world war II that 70+ won't have any idea what the hell you are talking about. Another 20 will have only a vague idea.
Similar results if you went to DC and asked members of congress.
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
This is either FLAMEBAIT -1 or INSIGHTFUL SARCASM +1.
I was going for "such amazing flamebait that it must be insightful sarcasm." At this time 70% of the mod points recognized that, while 30% didn't. So two out three moderators recognize sarcasm.
But are those rapes systematically ignored by the prison system and your hallowed judges? YES.
Perhaps they are ignored by the prison system, but they are NOT ignored by judges. A judge sees all cases brought before him. In contrast, the aforementioned canings are HANDED OUT by judges, so your comparison is flawed.
As a final note, I don't "hallow" any judges - especially not any currently up for nomination to the Supreme Court.
Good thing I have a little bit more freedom in the US, or perhaps I would eventually get into trouble for what I say.
I love boobies!
This is why more people should consider darknets. I guess we (anoNet) aren't completely dark since we have a light on. But we have safe gaurds in place that allow us to do that.
... you can pretty much assure that you won't be getting a perm. link.
Hell, anyone that is interested in how the internet works should check it out -- you could learn a lot. But anonymity / privacy (encryption) are first and foremost. If you click on that link and decide to connect, then come in and blab where you are from
They should be enforcing this on everyone in Singapore if posting racist comments on a blog is 'illegal'. It's not fair for these two individuals to have thier doors knocked on and taken into custody for what maybe hundereds of other people have gotten away with. (Kind of like the RIAA lawsuits at first.) This goes to show you how government can start a 'selective law enforcement' campaign.
Empathetic-- 94% You tend to walk in someone else's shoes a hundred miles before pointing a finger.
So two out three moderators recognize sarcasm.
You failed to account for poor taste. Not everyone mods sarcasm up just because it's sarcastic.
...but I declined each time, even with the Singaporean government offered to pay my expenses. I don't dignify fascist dictatorships with my presence.
Yes, Singapore is a fascist nation. It is of, by, and for big business.
Singapore pretends to have elections, but one party always wins. There is no such thing as "due process" in the Singaporean legal system; what the government wants, it gets.
Perhaps the most obnoxious aspect of Singapore are all these American businessmen who rave about what a nice place it is because Singapore is delightfully free of all these annoying irritants to business that plague democracies.
Public participation? Don't make me laugh.
As much as I detest socialists, these wide-eyed capitalist admirers of fascism are just as bad. The way that Forbes magazine fawns over dictator Lee Kwan Yew is disgusting.
On the other hand, it's useful to read LKY's regular articles in Forbes. Once you read what he writes for American consumption, turn around and read what he's written (and said!) for domestic Singaporean consumption.
It also helps to spent some time with the pathetic Party mouthpiece The Straits Times. Of, by, and for big business; and making sure that the worker ants stay at being good worker ants.
Speaking of the Party. It's called the PAP (People's Action Party). It's a remarkably good acronym, since it's pap that they dish out.
Go say you wanna kill "the president" (with exception of Hugo Chavez, you can threaten him any day of the week).
That'll get those doors 'a knockin.
Just ask that K5 guy about what he said to get 2 SS agents at his doorstep. He did say they were friendly, though.
How do you know these really are racists??
I would never automatically assume that a conviction in Singapore means guilt.
On the other hand, if they really are racists, then Singapore is a great place for them to be!
In this case, the Singapore gov't is NOT showing fear of being criticized by its own citizens. They're just trying to keep people in line because Singapore's prosperity depends on it. Singapore is a tiny country whose economy depends (partly) on the goodwill of its Muslim neighbors, Malaysia and Indonesia (the largest Muslim country in the world -- 200 million people). Where do you think the city-state's water comes from? Background on Chinese in SE Asia: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1514 916.stm
In 1965, HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of ethnic Chinese were killed in Indonesia during "anti-communist rioting"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/indonesia/specia l_report/51981.stm
In 1998 there were more riots and ethnic Chinese were scapegoats as usual.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/indonesia/your_c omments_so_far/93837.stm
When you have touchy neighbors, keeping a low profile is a smart thing to do.
You're displaying your lack of understanding about the culture. While I certainly think it's way overboard (I work in Singapore), the government's move has nothing to do with 'fearing its citizens'. The current administration happens to take national integration VERY seriously; and many Chinese-descendent Singaporeans are racist towards other citizens (Indians, Pakistanis, etc.).
Has he bought you the 'fine' t-shirt yet? (you can get them at most tourist shops)
I'm a slant-eyed rice-picker living in Singapore and I loled...
Starbucks, Harbuckle of Breath.
This should be labled as Topic:Cencorship. We all know that's how singapore works, but this is more than a general "internet" topic.
Everyone knows that prison rapes happen. A lot. If any other government institution had similar numbers, there would be a public outcry about the violation of human rights. The sad fact is that (IMHO) most people secretly don't think that prisoners deserve the full range of rights that are afforded to them. That's why society turns a blind eye to the elephant in the room.
And, to be clear, I didn't really mean that you hallow all judges simply because they are judges. I meant that it seemed like you hold the institution of judge in high regard.
And what is so wrong with a sentence of caning?
argumentum ad fallacium: Fallacy of defining a fallacy which allows one to dismiss the argument in question.
I hate everyone.
I don't discriminate! I hate everyone.
Please see http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/c/ch /chewing_gum_ban_in_singapore.htm for the history and the reality of chewing gum in Singapore. Your sources need updates.
The people and government of Singapore are very realistic in some ways, but I don't defend them; they have to do that. My citations are strictly addressing another lens to look at the problems in a pluralistic society of derogatory racial tension prevention as regards the apparent suppression of free speech.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Seditious postings blogs YOU!
I've been working in Singapore for 3 years, and I understand where they are coming from. Singapore views racial integration seriously, too seriously for our liking perhaps. But we have to understand its reasons.
The island-nation do not have any natural resources. Its neighbors are largely Muslim populated countries plagued with political instability and strife. It has pulled itself from a struggling third world country to a first world nation in less than 30 years from the strengths of its people and good governance alone. Racial integration and harmony IS THE pillar of the country. Take that away and Singapore will not be what it is today. Thus, in this part of the world, racism is sedition.
We, Americans can't seem to understand, why Singapore, one of the safest, cleanest, richest, most modern country in the world can't accept our ideals. Perhaps it's time we try to understand before we are so quick to judge.
I think having very 'tight' law is good - as long as it helps to prevent/reduce crimes. It is exactly the less than tough penalty in many countries including here in US that drug and vandalism is prevalent.
As for persecuting bloggers for seditious remarks, maybe yes if it is religious and race for Singapore. No if it is political or personal.
It has a history of racial and religious violence. It's economy and social harmony cannot afford history to repeat itself. It is a risk that the country cannot afford.
However that said, I still feel it is too high handled. Though the government's intent is towards racist remarks, it makes one feels fearful about one's freedom of opinion in expressing other controversial topics. I beleive there are smarter ways to deal with this than an absolute iron fist.
Yeah...there is a problem with Singaporeans and their attitude in general, they even admit it themselves, they are the worst travellers and tend to look down on other races/countries.
1 8/as.singapore.html
8 /p-sg-57?m=r
It's known as the 'Ugly Singaporean', some references here:
http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/magazine/2000/02
http://sg.polls.yahoo.com/public/archives/9590009
http://www.singapore-window.org/sw03/031120af.htm
Along with Mr Miyagi, other famous singaporean Bloggers are Mr Brown and Xia Xue (Another new one is http://rockson.blogspot.com/).
I recently got into a massive blogwar (almost 600 comments) because of this very attitude, potrayed on her blog by Xia Xue (She called someone a malay fucker, said she wanted to slap them with a pig and 'laughed' at the way Arabic people dressed amongst other things). Her post can be found here: KL Pretty much sucked! This should give you an insight into the common attitude there..
Share your Knowlege - Kung-Fu Geekery
So they are giving up essential liberties in exchange for security? Isn't there a quote about that somewhere? I seem to recall it getting bandied about when the US Govt does something wrong.
Read the amazing Sedition Act here.
Trackback: e pur si muove, Bloggers Charged Under Sedition Act
So two out three moderators recognize sarcasm.
Wow. You should buy a lottery ticket today.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Dearest all,
I am a Singaporean. To be frank I am quite shocked by what I read in the papers. However I do find some remarks posted here about my country offending.
Singapore maybe a 'FINE' country where you throw a litter, you will be fined, but you can't blame us. How we can succeed today is because of all our leaders had done. To keep peace, law and order and maintain our economy. Lets say the US. If US follow our style, would there be any more black racist? Would there be terrorist attacks on them?
It is also true that Singapore is a strict country. A place where you break a law, prepare to be jailed. And because of this. Our country now has one of the lowest crime rate in the world. I know many of you will say, its unfair for Michael Fay who was caned in Singapore for vandalism even when he is not a Singaporean. But keep this is mind. He broke a law, and he deserved to be caned. And that is to send a message to all other foreigners out there, you come to our country, you abide our laws.
I lived in Singapore for years now. I am borned here, raised here and I don't feel suffocated by all this restriction. The life here is good, great! Unlike the US, where everyday you must always fear whether will you be the next victims of bombings or lets say a victim of random slainings!
In Singapore we do have the freedom of speech, however there is always a limit and I think the two bloggers who were charged had crossed it.
If you look at MrBrown's (http://www.mrbrown.com/ blog, a popular singaporean blogger, you will get what I mean. Another example will be Talkrock (http://www.rockson.blogspot.com./ Though his blog is filled with FOUL LANGUAGE, we never see him charged in court. He knows the limits and the two charged in court doesn't
So I hope guys, stop posting rude remarks about my country. Come here if you don't believe what I said.
No, don't say that. I'd rather have a slashdot effect over the network than through telepathy.
True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
In the most recent election in Singapore, the incumbent party won 82 of 84 seats (first-past-the-post elections).
Singapore does not have political freedom -- some consider it an authoritatian regieme, just one that seems to care about its people (more or less).
May I recommend some reading?
The opposition didn't even bother fielding candidates in more than half of the seats in the last two elections.
Still, it's a lot better than China. Gotta give 'em that.
I mistrust your citation.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
I remember an old Tom Lehrer album where the lead in to "National Brotherhood Week" had the lead in:
"I know there are people in this world who do not love their fellow man. And I hate people like that!"
The sad fact is that (IMHO) most people secretly don't think that prisoners deserve the full range of rights that are afforded to them.
Actually, I don't secretly think this at all. I personally think the US is too soft on prisoners. I say bring back chain gangs. Make those suckers pay for their own incarceration. I am proud to say I support "Stop, or I'll shoot."
And what is so wrong with a sentence of caning? In a word, Nothing.
A lot of people might have issue with your last statement. Especially considering you are trying to put someone in prison, for the rest of their life, for something that is not a crime in my country.
52nd state indeed.
It is correct and desirable for governments to "fear" their citizens. The "fear" doesn't come from eventual violence, as the citizen necessarily fears his government (which is founded on the principle of violence), but from the possibility of being stripped of authority. If that possibility doesn't exist, or is considerably weakened (as it is in the US), then government expands continuously, year after year, without recourse (as it has in the US for the past century).
"When the people fear the government, it is tyranny. When the government fears the people, it is liberty."
-- Jefferson? (Not too sure of the origin, but you get the point.)
Well, it seems we agree abou ta lot more than I thought.
I'm all for harsher sentences for many crimes. I just think that it's a tragedy that people in favor of harsher penalties are willing to turn a blind eye to prison malfeasance, as they are willing to let it act as a surrogate for those harsher sentences.
argumentum ad fallacium: Fallacy of defining a fallacy which allows one to dismiss the argument in question.
Either the Enlightenment notion of liberty is true for all people, or it is true for none. If a society cannot maintain liberties and order simultaneously, then that society is ill. I'm sorry, but this is just a variant of the tired "social order" argument which has been the excuse of tyrants throughout the ages.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Only if you assume that all people are equal; if they aren't, then your statement is wrong.
... and the stereotyping of Singaporeans was equaly perverse.
THe idiocity always was both ways and it is worth pointing that small detail out.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I'm not sure how this wasn't modded a troll, much less insightful.
While sometimes criticized for being a "nanny state", Singapore is a republic with a flourishing free-market economy and one of the lowest crime rates in the world. The country has four official languages, including English and Chinese, and has one of the world's most highly educated populaces. Its government is consistently rated by Transparency International as being one of the least corrupt countries in the world. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore)
Yeah, sounds like a real vile, oppressive, wicked place alright.
What are you talking about?
Imagine a desert island with a limited supply of drinkable water--while it would be nice if everyone could have perfect liberty to do as they please with the water, rules, regulations, etc., might be needed so that everyone gets enough to drink.
In other words, even granting that liberty--and as much of it as possible--is a good thing, it doesn't follow that there can't be circumstances in which at least some of it might have to be curtailed so as to preserve the rest.
It is an empirical question whether the circumstances in a particular society really does require the curtailing of liberties for the sake of survival or security, but that such a trade off may be necessary cannot itself be ruled out a priori. And even granting that tyrants have appealed to "circumstances" to justify their ways does not mean that such measures are never justified. It has to be considered on a case by case basis.
Dear Mighty Martian, seeing as you come from Mars, i understand how you obviously either 1)Dont understand the word vile 2)Dont know anything about the Singapore government A government is made up of citizens, and how, if it be, can protecting society be pathetic? In the first place, action against these racists are not merely protecting the society but a signal that Singapore cannot and does not tolerate racists. In such actions, the government needs no excuse nor defence. Perhaps, on the comparison, you, the mighty martian would find extremists and terrorists non-oppressive. Well, i guess the way things work in Mars are simply different. Lets see how different- guess what, THEY DONT WORK! you live in an idealistic dream. (which has been abused terribly by martians no doubt.) Oh yeah, one more thing, if you think the "West" (as you oh so generalised it)SHOULD 'stand up' to such governments, HELLO OPPRESSOR!