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FCC May Push Bells to Unbundle DSL

Carl Bialik writes "The FCC is nearing approval of two big phone deals -- Verizon-MCI and SBC-AT&T -- according to people familiar with the situation cited by the Wall Street Journal. But regulators are considering requiring asset sales and other moves, including the offering of unbundled DSL, 'without requiring consumers -- mostly home users -- to subscribe to phone service. Verizon already allows some customers to do that, but SBC doesn't. ... Patrick Mahoney, an analyst at Yankee Group, said that traditional phone lines are cash cows, so allowing customers to buy Internet access without traditional phone service would be costly to telecom providers.'"

233 comments

  1. But what of the terms? by 6th+time+lucky · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sure you *can* get it unbundled, but you would loose out on the special $100 per month discount for having both services... and who wants $140 per month DSL just so it can be unbundled??

    1. Re:But what of the terms? by Nimey · · Score: 2, Funny

      Nobody will, so they'll lower the rate to be competitive with cable ISPs.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    2. Re:But what of the terms? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hate to be a spelling Nazi, but for fuck sake -
       
      It is difficult to take any argument seriously when one cannot correctly spell 'lose'.

      http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Aloos e

    3. Re:But what of the terms? by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      Sure you *can* get it unbundled, but you would loose out on the special $100 per month discount for having both services... and who wants $140 per month DSL just so it can be unbundled??

      Removing cross-subsidies from the built-under-monopoly-subsidies local phone copper to the unregulated information services was the quid-pro-quo for letting the local phone companies play in the information business unregulated in the first place.

      I'm surprised it's taking this long.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    4. Re:But what of the terms? by thczv · · Score: 1

      They aren't talking about consumer bundling, where you get a price break because you buy DSL, local telephone, and long distance service from the same company. They are talking about network element unbundling, where federal regulatory power requires incumbent carriers like SBC and Verizon to sell network elements (like the local loop and DSLAM that makes DSL work) to competitors at really low prices. thczv

    5. Re:But what of the terms? by at_slashdot · · Score: 1

      The competition would drive the price well bellow $140.

      --
      "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." -- Prof. Dumbledore
  2. That's what I've been waiting for! by marcosmota · · Score: 1

    I need this as soon as I move into my new apt. in New York. Cable has the same bundle requiment for home users! Sweet!

    1. Re:That's what I've been waiting for! by RevengeOfPoopJuggler · · Score: 0

      Cable also has the same stupid bundle thing when it comes to premium channels like HBO. You have to get the 1000 channel digital cable plan for like $80 just to be able to get HBO. All I want is like the 10 basic channels plus HBO and Showtime, but there is no way to get that.

    2. Re:That's what I've been waiting for! by crazyjeremy · · Score: 1
      I have the same situation with tidewater telecom. I have two high speed internet choices: http://tidewater.net/ or Satellite. Lets do the math if I go with the monopolistic tidewater.net:
      • $47.95 a month for DSL
      • $28 a month for landline service BEFORE TAXES.
      • $46.42 non refundable application fee (to see if they will even let you get the service)
      • Mandatory $90 for a paradyne modem
      I asked them why I would want a landline which only can call locally to within its own town (few miles north or south is long distance) when I already have unlimited internet ip phone for a little over $20/mo. That works wherever I am with my pocket pc and a wifi connection. They had no answer. They had no answer and they knew I had no other choice. Because they own all the dsl in this town, no competition can even come in. They think they have it made... Moral of the story: Small town telecom companies think they can set the costs however they want. If this ruling applies to smaller local independent companies like tidewater, customers will get a break. There is no reason for me to spend $78 /mo for a dsl connection when I do not need the local phone.
  3. DSL Price vs. Comcast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But what is Verizon, et al. going to do? They won't be able to win on the price war vs. cable when they can't subsidize the cost of DSL with the phone line... they will be forced to show DSL really costs $40 just like cable.

    1. Re:DSL Price vs. Comcast by isotpist · · Score: 1

      In the end you have to do business with at least one of the companes that own wires leading to your house. At least there is both cable and phone most places which has the potential to drive real competition. Unbundling should allow us to find out how much it really costs to dlliver residential-level high speed internet.

    2. Re:DSL Price vs. Comcast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Working for a cable company I get to see the fun 'behind-the-scenes' aspects of issues like this. We also offer unbundled service where you can get residential cablemodem access for near to the same price as you would if you had cable TV. There's an additional $10 charge that the customer pays which is supposed to cover the cost of getting signal to your home. This is justifiable as you still have limited working cable (you receive a # of channels still, as they can't trap out everything without causing issues for the modem), you're just not supposed to plug it in to any TV's.

  4. I guess... by csplinter · · Score: 0

    this is supposed to read "FCC May Push Bills to Unbundle DSL"

    1. Re:I guess... by tabacco · · Score: 1

      Or not.

    2. Re:I guess... by Sorthum · · Score: 1

      What you're missing: When AT&T was split up, the resulting regional phone companies were called the "baby bells." i.e. Pacific Bell, Bell South, New York Telephone, etc...

  5. Phone lines are cash cows? by Anonymous+Crowhead · · Score: 3, Informative

    Only if you add a bunch of features. I have a land line for a security alarm system. Local incoming free, local outgoing $0.02/minute. No voice mail, call waiting, caller id, long distance, etc. $12/month.

    1. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by ezeri · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and you pay $12 in "taxes" (and by taxes I mean the fee that the phone company calls taxes but realy go strait into there bank account) so the total cost is around $25.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now. - Ed Howd
    2. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by tji · · Score: 2, Informative

      $12/month is at the extreme low end of the pricing spectrum. As you mentioned, it's a line for an alarm system.. not exactly typical usage.

      Most people are paying upwards of $30/month for basic voice service.

      But, in either case, their phone infrastructure is a sunk cost, paid for a LONG time ago. The revenue they continue to milk out of all those people is highly profitable. Even at $12/month, they're not hurting. At $30++ per month, they're very happy, and will fight tooth and nail to maintain that captive market.

    3. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by procat · · Score: 1

      Yea... but you can get a cheapy line from broadvoice.com for $5.95 per month... (Total with Fees & Taxes - $7.67)

    4. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by satguy · · Score: 1
      In my neighbourhood, local service has high costs to the telco in line, concentrator, and other infrastructure maintenance. Someone suggested that it's a "sunk" cost - not so!

      Traditionally around here (B.C. Canada) monopoly long-distance tolls used to subsidize the cost to maintain those millions of miles of local copper (counting each pair's mileage separately) and infrastructure. The government-regulated local loop charges were allowed to increase to compensate for losses of l/d revenues to the competition when the monopoly was opened up around 20 years ago.

    5. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by Knetzar · · Score: 1

      I pay $13 a month and get unlimited no frills calling. It's all I need at home. Vontage would be nice, but I can't get a local number with them.

    6. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by keraneuology · · Score: 1

      $13/month? Is that before all of the taxes, universal service fee, 911 surcharge and whatnot?

      --
      If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"
    7. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      I have a Verizon bill right in front of me (though I just canceled the service). $12.70 for the service and $6.38 in taxes. Total: $19.08. That's with $0.02 per call and $0.002/minute charges for outgoing.

      Of course, they can take their crappy ass phone service and stick it. I'm done giving Verizon money. I'm completely fed up with their "what are you going to do about it" policy. But, that's another story.

    8. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      It's all I need at home. Vontage would be nice, but I can't get a local number with them.

      With number portability, you should be able to keep your current number even if they're unable to supply you with a new one from your area.

    9. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not exactly true for Verizon, since they are trying to deploy fiber in their entire region. Replacing all that copper costs lots of $$$s

    10. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by rabbit994 · · Score: 1

      And they will let you use SIP so if you want to set up an Asterisk box to control the house phones, you can.

    11. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by Surt · · Score: 1

      Well, that's $12 per month at essentially no cost to them. And where I am that same line costs $22/mo at the same cost to the phone company. Multiply that by something like 4 million customers for my carrier, and you have about $100 million per month, or $1 billion per year of pure profit.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    12. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by nasor · · Score: 1

      This is so true. When I called the phone company to get service for my new apartment it was damn hard to get the service rep to just give me a basic line. They kept trying to sell me
      -caller ID
      -call waiting
      -phone insurance (I had never even heard of this before)
      -a service plan that would cover them coming to my apartment to inspect the building's wiring

      I ended up taking the bill from $30/month to $18/month by rejecting the extra "features", and it was easy to tell that the service rep on the phone wasn't at all happy about it.

    13. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Do you really think those phonelines are build-and-forget? They need to be maintained like everything else and without maintenance they'll quickly fall apart.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    14. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Do you really think those phonelines are build-and-forget? They need to be maintained like everything else and without maintenance they'll quickly fall apart.

      We can't get DSL to our home because New England Telephone and Telegraph apparently put induction coils on our lines in the '50's and Verizon doesn't want to replace it.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    15. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by Widowwolf · · Score: 1

      pure profit huh..really..whats about payroll, what about repair work, what about maintanance, what about taxes the companies pay, what about ..you know what i can go on for days...try rethinking business expenses before you open your flap...

      --
      ~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
    16. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by Zemrec · · Score: 1

      How the hell are you getting a landline for so cheap?? My brother is able to get it for that, but only because he's disabled and on a very low income so they give him a special deal.

      But I was paying $25-30/mo for basic service. I dumped it a month and a half ago and went naked DSL. Still, I do wish I could receive calls for free on my cell phone. Pain in the ass.

    17. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by Zemrec · · Score: 1

      Where do you live? I used to work for a small local ISP, and in dealing with Verizon about customers' DSL problems, we regularly would request VZ to remove load coils. AFAIK, they're required to do so as long as they're withing the normal maximum loop length of DSL (18,000 FT last I checked).

      If you're way the hell out from a CO then, yeah, they probably won't remove it and you're SOL.

    18. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by Ersatz+Chickenweed · · Score: 1

      They pay that much because they ask for "basic voice service" and then take the first offer the sales representative gives them. I learned long ago that you have to repeatedly ask about 5 or 6 times, stripping out bits of unnecessary garbage each time, before you actually get offered the true "basic" phone service (i.e. a dial tone).

      It goes like this:

      >Hello, this is SBC, how can I help you?

      Umm.. Hello, I want to order basic phone service. I want a dial tone and NOTHING else. No caller ID, nothing but a dial tone. OK?

      >OK, sir. We can do that for $35+ a month.

      OK, and what's included in that besides the dial tone, which is all I'm asking for?

      >Well, sir, that includes caller ID, call tracing, call---

      Excuse me, but I told you I don't want any of that extra stuff. Please get rid of the extra stuff. I just want a dial tone. Nothing else but a dial tone, OK?

      >OK, sir. That brings your monthly price down to $27.95.

      Ummm.... OK, and what services does _that_ include besides just the basic dial tone I am asking you for?

      >Well, sir, that includes... blah blah blah.

      [rinse and repeat multiple times until you get them down to around $12]

      Extremely infuriating, and a very sleazy business practice. SBC is one of the absolute worst companies I've ever had to deal with in terms of trying to sell you crap you don't want. Satellite TV, DSL, wireless, whatever... they _will_ do the hard sell on you and try to get you to purchase every single product that they offer every single time you have to talk to them.

    19. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      If you're way the hell out from a CO then, yeah, they probably won't remove it and you're SOL.

      Well, that's part 2 of the problem - we're 26K' from the CO but 5K' from the remote terminal where the fiber drops in. But they won't put a DSLAM in the remote terminal because it wouldn't work because of the induction coils. And based on your experience they won't remove them because we're more than 18K' from the CO. Even though that doesn't have anything to do with the delivery, they're complying with the letter of the regulation. Convenient, ain't it?

      Anyway, to the point, this suggests to me they haven't touched our local cable plant since the 50's - certainly since they replaced long-haul copper with fiber.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    20. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by The_K4 · · Score: 1

      I never had that problem with SBC. I went online at work and bought phone service and DLS on their webpage. I got exatly what I wanted with no hassles. The few times I have needed to call them (like to get a faster DSL service) they have been very helpful, at one point I even had a guy tell me on a Friday to "Wait and call Monday" because that's when a new offer on the service I wanted would start and I could get it for 30% less for the first 12 months of service. I have been very happy with them.

    21. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by URSpider · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yea... but you can get a cheapy line from broadvoice.com for $5.95 per month... (Total with Fees & Taxes - $7.67)


      Broadvoice supplies VOIP service, which you must use over a broadband connection, which you could get over your DSL, for which you have to pay for a bundled voice ... never mind.



      ... wanders off mumbling something about RTFA.

    22. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by Kick+the+Donkey · · Score: 1
      But, in either case, their phone infrastructure is a sunk cost, paid for a LONG time ago.

      Maybe the lines in your neighborhood were paid for a long time ago, but your costs have to subsidize the growth of the network elsewhere in the company. Not to mention rebuilding in storm-destroyed areas. Its going to cost BellSouth almost $600 millon to repair the damage along the Gulf cost.

      Tell me: Does money grow on trees where you're from?

      --
      /. is a bunch of nerds at a million typewriters. It's not a political conspiracy determined to undermine your beliefs.
    23. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      I had a land line until last month. It was about the same. It only goes up to 25-30 if you make long distance calls, or if you add in caller id, 3 way calling, and all those other features. I didn't, so mine was 12+long distance separate.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    24. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by keltor · · Score: 1

      Look at BellSouth's profits ... just look at the earning paid on a (as of right now) $26.11 share, it was $2.19 ... That's a pretty big profit margin.

      Now SBC that's a diff story $1.41 on $24.12, Verizon paid $3.09 on $32.01, and Qwest actually lost .45 on $3.91 share (I won't even go into how much AT&T lost last year)

    25. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by Carnildo · · Score: 1

      Quest was quite nice in that regard. I simply went online to their "sign me up" web page, provided my address, selected "basic service", selected "no interstate long distance carrier" and "no local long-distance carrier", and then confirmed that I didn't want long distance.

      Final bill: $12/mo + $5 in "fees" + $3 in real taxes.

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
    26. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by naoursla · · Score: 1

      Tell me: Does money grow on trees where you're from?

      um... the Treasury Department has asked me to respond to that question with "no comment."

    27. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by Surt · · Score: 1

      payroll: for who, specifically related to keeping my line running? The billing center?

      repair work: i have to pay for that separately. Either I pay for the insurance plan or I pay out of pocket. For more global repairs, yes, that is the primary expenditure, but assuming they build right, this should not be an expensive item. Also, global maintenance is required for all their lines of business, which further supports rather than denies the claim that residential services are a 'pure profit' area.

      taxes: obviously, every companies profits are taxed. but that's no different than any other company, and doesn't really pertain to the relative profitability of phone service. All of the special phone company taxes are billed to me separately anyway.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    28. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by Widowwolf · · Score: 1

      The payroll is for everyone...you know there are over 200,000 non management people working for sbc ..those are credit and collections, hr, customer service, technicians to keep lines maintained As far as repair work goes, you ever seen a car wrapped around a telephone pole....the insirance company doesnt pay for that, SBC replaces those out of thier pocket, you heard of storms knocking out telephone lines, SBC replaces thos eout of pocket, you ever heard of dry rot...sbc has to replace those...hell with all the routers, wiring and technical stuff it takes to run the hone system..customers are lucky they arent charged more...not everything is perfect and things go wrong and shit needs to be replaced...go ahead and open up your own telephone company and maintain your own lines...then scome back and tell me how profitable is....those telephone poles alone are $238.00 a piece.. As far as taxes goes..i should have said various other funds charges that you are not charged on your bill..you think you pay 100% of SBC's taxes with those extra few bucks tacked onto yoru bill.. wow you are funny...shut up and do your homework...until then STFU!

      --
      ~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
    29. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by Widowwolf · · Score: 1

      and before you try it i have been up since 6 am yesterday ..no making fun of my typing or spelling

      --
      ~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
    30. Re:Phone lines are cash cows? by Forbman · · Score: 1

      ...and what was BellSouth's profits over the last 5 years?

      Needless to say, they'll probably also get some sort of tax credits from the fed and state govments, and of course if they have to borrow, they have excellent cash flow and will get great credit lines...

  6. My question is... by lightyear4 · · Score: 1

    ...why is it still so damned expensive? is pricing arbitrarily?

    1. Re:My question is... by Alcemenes · · Score: 5, Informative

      The short answer is yes, pricing is arbitrary.

      The Bells own the copper so they can basically charge as much as they please. Granted, they shove two services over the same pair of wires so one could argue that the only overhead for the telco would be the bandwidth but you also have to add in the switching equipment, wages for technicians, support costs and maintenance. On the flip side, the Bells are using infrastructure that was bought and paid for decades ago and they're basically squeezing every possible revenue stream out of their equipment so their costs aren't really any higher (other than bandwidth) to deliver DSL to a customer.

      The Bell's argument for not allowing unbundled pairs (dsl only) has to do with the regulatory requirements placed on DSL service. Now that DSL is classified as an unregulated information service that argument loses merit. Also keep in mind that VoIP is also unregulated for the most part. Add to this the fact that the Bells are beginning to convert portions of their networks to VoIP while building new, high performance ATM networks optimized to carry VoIP traffic. My guess is that the Bells will begin to offer unbundled DSL loops and shortly after this becomes available they will roll out VoIP services. This would allow the Bells to deliver high-speed Internet and dial tone over unregulated mediums essentially bypassing the bulk of the regulations and taxes placed upon telecommunications saving them a heap of money.

      I may be way out in left field on this but after having a few discussions with my account managers as well as technicians working for one of the Bells I think this is where they are heading. Bells are HUGE profit driven corporations so they are always looking for new ways to generate revenue, usually at the expense of competition.

      This is somewhat of a long-winded reply that has strayed off course a bit but hopefully I've made my point. I'm not going to pretend that I am some sort of authority on how the Bells operate. I am basing my reply on observations I have made and personal experience. I'm just throwing my two cents into the pot.

    2. Re:My question is... by Widowwolf · · Score: 1

      yeah you are just about right..one thing people dont look at...how many times have you seen hi speed cable prices in the 40-50$ amounts and seen dsl much cheaper..the way the subsidize no profit on one part of teh service is to add on a service..its like what game systems do..the charge you a cheap price on the console and jack you up on the game..thats where thier profitability comes from

      --
      ~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
  7. Re:hmm by phalse+phace · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well, I know quite a few people who would get DSL without the phone service. And I'm one of them.

    We all use our cell phones to make all our calls, local and long-distance. We don't need a land line anymore. Yet we're forced to pay for one because of our DSL. Sure, there's cable, but I (we) don't want to pay $40+ a month for cable internet when we can get SBC DSL for $15 a month.

  8. SpeakEasy by Sorthum · · Score: 4, Informative

    http://www.speakeasy.com/ already offers a "naked DSL" option, but they do charge a premium for it over standard DSL-- and they're not even a phone company.

    Ideally with companies being required to separate the two there will be companies like Speakeasy that are now able to offer unbundled connectivity without charging extra for it.

    We can but hope, anyway...

    1. Re:SpeakEasy by Sorthum · · Score: 2, Informative

      What are you talking about? It's been a while since my admin days, but I can't recall ANY home users who need RADIUS servers. Speakeasy's offering doesn't use PPPoE either, from what I recall-- they use some form of MAC address authentication instead.

      I'm trying to decipher what you wrote and figure out if you're a troll who strung a bunch of IT words together, or someone who knows a crapload more about this stuff than I do. Have a coin I can flip?

    2. Re:SpeakEasy by Spezzer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I have 'OneLink' DSL with Speakeasy, and the advantage is that you get pretty much a 'guaranteed' service.

      I was about 6000 feet from my CO previously, and despite that, I could not maintain 1.5/768 DSL due to a crappy line installed by PG&E. Unfortunately, because there was no onelink service, I couldn't do anything if PG&E didn't want to help me out, which they didn't.

      However, once I got OneLink, PG&E was now forced to lay a new line down or fix the line so that it was up to spec. Now I'm able to get 6.0/768 stable. Has not gone down for more than 10 minutes in the past 1.5 years (other than maintenance).

    3. Re:SpeakEasy by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      Speakeasy probably charges a premium over standard DSL because it is a premium service. Who would have thought?

      Speakeasy proably has long running contracts from before the FCC ruling in question, and as such, probably aren't affected, for now.

    4. Re:SpeakEasy by Flagbrew · · Score: 1

      Our little telephone company, Qwest, has offered this for nearly 2 years, although it used to be difficult to convince the sales people that the service actually existed. In fact we used to get "No ISP, No dial tone", 1mbit down/1mbit up, service for under 20 USD per month until it became popular.

    5. Re:SpeakEasy by laymusic · · Score: 1

      Speakeasy does claim to offer the naked DSL, but in practice, they believe what Verizon tells them about the lines not being high enough quality, so at least in my case, I couldn't get it.

    6. Re:SpeakEasy by URSpider · · Score: 1

      http://www.speakeasy.com/ already offers a "naked DSL" option, but they do charge a premium for it over standard DSL-- and they're not even a phone company.

      Ideally with companies being required to separate the two there will be companies like Speakeasy that are now able to offer unbundled connectivity without charging extra for it.


      Nope. If you'd been reading your Slashdot regularly, you'd know that the FCC ruled earlier this year that phone companies are not required to lease their lines to DSL re-sellers like SpeakEasy. These services are on the way out, not the way in.

      This kind of unbundling merely means that the phone company would be required to sell you DSL without voice, not that they would have to let anyone else use their lines to do the same.

    7. Re:SpeakEasy by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      I was about 6000 feet from my CO previously, and despite that, I could not maintain 1.5/768 DSL due to a crappy line installed by PG&E. Unfortunately, because there was no onelink service, I couldn't do anything if PG&E didn't want to help me out, which they didn't. However, once I got OneLink, PG&E was now forced to lay a new line down or fix the line so that it was up to spec.

      Your phone connectivity is handled by Pacific Gas & Electric?

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    8. Re:SpeakEasy by Spezzer · · Score: 1

      Yikes, I meant SBC, not PG&E.

      I used to be pissed off at my SBC bill, but I no longer have one. Now I'm pissed off at my PG&E bill, so that's probably why I made the mistake :P

  9. That Stupid Govt. "Lifeline" Crap Stinks by putko · · Score: 1

    And if you get a phone, the Feds take away some money, and blow it on stupid projects.

    They say it is for subisdizing phone service in hard-to-reach places, but that's not all. E.g. buying a bunch of computer networking crap for schools that don't/can't use the stuff.

    Phone service is encumbered with layers of pork and regulation. DSL is relatively free of that crap, right now.

    --
    http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_s tone_your_children/dt21_18a.html
    1. Re:That Stupid Govt. "Lifeline" Crap Stinks by ezeri · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Don't start blaming that on the government, well except that the whole phone monopoly is the governments doing, but nearly all of those so called "fees and taxes" on your phone bill go strait into the pockets of the baby bells. The regulation is not hurting you, its the only reason phone service is half way affordable. Whats killing you is that the phone companies have a monopoly and there is nothing you can do about it.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now. - Ed Howd
    2. Re:That Stupid Govt. "Lifeline" Crap Stinks by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      We're still paying fees that were added to telegraph services back during the Spanish American war.

      Once the government gets their hooks into you, it's damned near impossible to get them out.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    3. Re:That Stupid Govt. "Lifeline" Crap Stinks by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 1

      Not quite true. The gov does place a lot of taxes on phnoe service, such as the "Universal Service" fee GP was talking about. We do pay so people in the sticks can have phones instead of moving to civilization.

    4. Re:That Stupid Govt. "Lifeline" Crap Stinks by michrech · · Score: 1

      Not quite true. The gov does place a lot of taxes on phnoe service, such as the "Universal Service" fee GP was talking about. We do pay so people in the sticks can have phones instead of moving to civilization.

      I'm not saying I agree with the tax, but why should people be forced into moving "to civilization" just to get a phone?

      You going to make me worship whatever god you believe, and eat the same foods you like next?

      --
      telnet://sinep.gotdns.com -- TW2002, Usurper, and LORD registered!

      --
      bork bork bork!
    5. Re:That Stupid Govt. "Lifeline" Crap Stinks by ezeri · · Score: 1

      But see the thing your missunderstanding is that its not the government that puts most of the so called taxes on the phone bill. Its the phone company. About 80% of them go right into the pockets of the baby bells. Federal Access charge for example is you paying the phone company for the privilage of connecting to a long distance carrier, doesn't matter if you want to or not you pay it. The fees you pay for rural areas to get phone service are a big lie since all of the baby bells sold most of there tier 2 and 3 areas off, so once again, strait into there pockets, and on and on. Its all a big lie and no on knows it.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now. - Ed Howd
  10. What do you mean? by 3l1za · · Score: 2, Informative

    As far as I'm concerned for the company's own self interest, SBC SHOULD unbundle it.

    After all, how many people order phone service in order to get DSL? Don't most people who have the option of DSL also have the option of cable?

    I know plenty of people who only have cell cervice -- no land line -- and who by default get cable just because DSL (in our area) always implies existence of phone line first. Which is -- in their view -- an unnecessary expense.

    Especially in light of the fact that we're hearing more mutterings lately about TV-via-Internet which might in the future give the cable networks a run for their money (or provide an alternative distribution channel for them). Which would make DSL vs. cable a tougher choice (if DSL were unbundled and Internet content were richer).

    1. Re:What do you mean? by Sorthum · · Score: 1

      In a lot of markets (think small towns in Maine) cable modems aren't an option for whatever reason. Everyone has phone service (if not a CO within the requisite distance) in America today (near enough, anyway).

      For these and probably other reasons that I'm unfamiliar with, there are places that offer DSL or Cable, but not both. Hell, some places have neither, but I don't like to think about that. *shudder*

  11. don't just do something, stand there by opencity · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A timeline of how big telecom has hindered broadband in the US is one day going to be as funny and shocking (in a quant corruption kind of way) that reading about the building of the Brooklyn bridge is today.

    From the baby bells in the early 90s to the ...

    ouch

    --
    Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.
  12. Doubtful they'll lose too much... by Sorthum · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I highly doubt that these companies lose money on their DSL offerings. I categorically refuse to get a landline, so when it came time to get a broadband solution in my new apartment, the cable modem won out.

    If DSL were available by itself, I'd have gone with them instead, given that it's generally a cheaper option. So at least in my case (and I'd imagine I'm not the only one in this position) they'd gain a customer by offering the two services separately.

    1. Re:Doubtful they'll lose too much... by ezeri · · Score: 1

      The baby bells are afraid of VOIP on cheap broadband connections stealing there local line cash cow, so this ruling isn't going to help you at all. Verizon and Qwest already offer naked dsl (dsl with out phone service) but is more expensive, and since the FCC rulling isn't expected to set any price points, don't get your hopes up.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now. - Ed Howd
    2. Re:Doubtful they'll lose too much... by Sorthum · · Score: 1

      So instead in major markets they lose out to cable internet instead and get none of the pie. There was a $5 fee for not having a cable package (I don't watch TV), versus a $20 fee for naked DSL. The DSL ended up being a few bucks cheaper, but I felt like I was getting pounded in the arse with a 70% "not being our bitch fee," so went with Cox instead.

    3. Re:Doubtful they'll lose too much... by slack2daze · · Score: 1

      If DSL were available by itself, I'd have gone with them instead

      See above about SpeakEasy. I have them and a cell phone, its a reasonable deal, depending on your needs (I have one of their naked DSL packages but its the best one so it's $$$) their regular (read: equal-to-Cable-speeds) DSL is quite cheap, ~$50/month. They also have a fairly nice TOS. Web, FTP, and other servers are allowed (check Verizon's TOS to see that they are apecifically NOT allowed), and if you live in a Apt they offer a sort of admin-your-own-wifi-network (see: http://www.speakeasy.net/netshare/learnmore/) package that also works with their T1 service. Definitely a cool company, and first-rate Tech support. My local CO (phone exchange) was underwater one night during a particularly bad storm and they had me up and running in two hours.

    4. Re:Doubtful they'll lose too much... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In your case I would probably go with Cox as well. Unfortunately, some of us are stuck with Comcast as the cable provider. I had them several years ago for cable and I will never do business with them again. The cable was at least partially out most of the time. I was in a location that could not get satellite or even reception over the air. When I would complain, the answer was what are you going to do about it, we'll fix it whenever. I have since moved to another state and have my choice of DSL or Comcast for internet. I don't use Bellsouth, but I have to have a Bellsouth dialtone because they have bribed enough politicians to force me to pay them $30 per month. I would gladly pay someone else more for naked DSL but it is not available. I hate Bellsouth, but not as much as Comcast.

  13. Bum link dude by 3l1za · · Score: 3, Informative

    try this one, instead: Speakeasy.NET -- NOT computational econometric software... but, as you say, naked dsl.

    Anyway isn't this another one of those Rhythms/Covad/Northpoint etc. companies. They collocate in the Central Offices and rely on the Bells if some particular piece of fit hits the shan. I NEVER understood how that model could work; dsl service is basically a commodity meaning: no room for a middleman reseller.

    For all I know SpeakEasy has its own copper wire loops and central offices, though...

    1. Re:Bum link dude by Sorthum · · Score: 2, Funny

      Oh crap, you're right-- they are a .net.

      The way they do business is they use SBC or someone else in your area to go from your house to the central office (usually within a couple tens of thousands of feet). There, it plugs into their rack and goes into their network. Converted a former employer (small business) from SBC DSL to a Speakeasy package, and the speeds shot up like crazy since SBC oversells their network and maintains it like crap (at least in the Orange County CA area). They're more expensive as a result than SBC, but their network is top notch. They bill themselves as having been designed for cross country gamers.

      They also go no more than three or four hops from backbone (so they claim).

      I just wasn't willing to pay the $90 a month they wanted here...

    2. Re:Bum link dude by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Oh crap, you're right-- they are a .net.

      Wow. Who woulda thunk it. An Internet service provider with a .net address...

    3. Re:Bum link dude by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      Speakeasy is really great. Unfortunately as you say, they just rebundle the physical layer service that the local bell sells, if they can. They'll always be more expensive, but their value has always been in having "the right" IP features (static IPs, shell accounts, fileshack etc.), whereas the local bells usually has the cheap piece of crap plan with minimal IP service, and then the expensive "business plan" which is more similar to speakeasy.

      Worse, companies like speakeasy cannot deliver to locations fed by remote access DSLAMs, quite common in new developments. SBC has me locked in, no choices except cable (not really a choice).

      Before long there will only be Bell left, I wonder if they'll call it AT&T.

    4. Re:Bum link dude by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      Worse, companies like speakeasy cannot deliver to locations fed by remote access DSLAMs, quite common in new developments.

      Until I moved about a year ago, I had DSL service through Megapath (great company, BTW - top notch service) over BellSouth copper, and as I recall I was going through a remote terminal owing to the 27K foot distance from the CO. I've heard great things about Speakeasy too, so if I were going for DSL again I'd definitely go with a reseller - unlike the Baby Bells, they really understand that customers have a choice.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    5. Re:Bum link dude by suitepotato · · Score: 1

      Anyway isn't this another one of those Rhythms/Covad/Northpoint etc. companies.

      Northpoint went arse end up in early 2000 and Rhythms followed in the end of summer 2000, both largely due to building out and burning cash at the behest of investors who earmarked funding to leash these companies, and starved them for advertising dollars, and pushed them on the unworkable idea of being solely dslam presense providers for third party ISPs, the majority of which were two college guys and a used Cisco router. Covad took money from SBC the way Apple took money from Microsoft.

      Just so you know.

      --
      If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
    6. Re:Bum link dude by ckd · · Score: 1

      My Speakeasy SDSL service is on a Verizon pair, Covad DSLAM, Speakeasy IP connectivity.

    7. Re:Bum link dude by jefftp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I had Speakeasy IDSL (DSL over an ISDN connection) 18 months ago in Houston due to my distance from the nearest CO. It worked great for two years, but when it finally did break the finger pointing began:

      It's a problem with your router, it's a problem with Covad, it's a problem with SBC, it's a problem with your router.

      After two weeks I was still unable to get things back up and working and they wanted me to put a deposit down for a Covad engineer to visit between 9am and 4pm weekdays only. Keep in mind this is for a service that I was paying $140 a month for a 144k connection.

      Needless to say, I called up SBC and had a DSL connection in place and running two days later--they had just installed a remote shelf in my neighborhood.

      The prices they are charging for "naked DSL" just happens to be the same price I'm paying for a phone line and DSL from SBC. Since I've never had an extended issue with my SBC DSL I haven't seen the reason to pay the same amount but lose my landline.

      It's ashame because SpeakEasy is by far the best customer service you can get from an ISP, but until they own copper into my house they just don't control enough of the variables.

  14. What the hell kind of POTS service do YOU have? by C10H14N2 · · Score: 1

    If my $12.99 POTS contract results in a $127.01 discount on my DSL, I'm thinking this action will have roughly, oh I don't know, a $12.99 effect on their bottom line.

    1. Re:What the hell kind of POTS service do YOU have? by bluGill · · Score: 1

      $44/month for POTS back when I had it a few years ago. Which is why I turned it off as soon as I found something other than DSL (which was also too expensive, and in the same range as a T1 in most other cities if you wanted one static IP) for my internet.

      Prices are not the same all over the country, much less the world. Verizon already has this feature (in some areas only?), but SBC never does. Therefore there is no analysis that applies to everyone. Don't try it. Look at your bottom line, which is what counts in the end anyway.

  15. how does it work down there in the U.S. ? by Adult+film+producer · · Score: 3, Informative

    I'm not entirely clear how dsl/cable access is achieved for customers in the u.s.... up here in canada it's sort of a monopoly for cable access, depending on which region you're in. For DSL, I believe many companies offer service in the same localities.. service is good, I get mine through cogeco cable, downtime in the last two or three years i could count with one hand (in hours.) The speed is decent as well, I regularly get 500KiloBytes/sec download from torrent sites and my upload speed maxes out at 85 KiloBytes/sec (very easy to keep my ratios at 1.5:1 or better.)

    Many of my friends have experienced the same with DSL, although it doesnt seem as robust as cable when I'm using it... maybe responsive is a better adjective to use.. Even people out in the small towns from the cities, 40-100 miles still have decent broadband service.

  16. I have an IP phone. by C10H14N2 · · Score: 1

    ...which is FAR more useful than a POTS phone, which is probably why the company I work for, which has about a quarter million employees, has nothing but IP phones.

    1. Re:I have an IP phone. by 3l1za · · Score: 1

      ...which is FAR more useful than a POTS phone

      Not if the power goes out, it's not...

    2. Re:I have an IP phone. by Sorthum · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Okay, my impression of this kind of setup during a network outtage:

      "Hi, I need you to go reset the-- hello? Hello? Is anyone there?"

  17. In contrast by overshoot · · Score: 3, Informative
    I'm in Germany right now and have been comparing DSL rates with my colleagues. They complain about Deutsche Telekom pretty much as we do about the BabyBells, but a DSL line here costs about half what I pay in Arizona, with voice separate. No ISP required, so instead of $30/mo for the DSL and $20/mo for the (mandatory) ISP they pay about €15/mo total.

    Since a land-line here doesn't save you from per-minute charges, half of them don't even bother and just use the mobiles for everything.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
    1. Re:In contrast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your statement is incorrect. You pay €17/mo for DSL and minimum €5/mo but usually €10/mo for the ISP (flat rate).

      http://www.dslweb.de/dsl-1000.htm
      http://www.dslweb.de/dsl-flatrate.htm

    2. Re:In contrast by Chuns · · Score: 1

      I would certainly hope that Deutsche Telekom DSL is cheaper than Baby Bell DSL. Germany (you) own 43% of it! Also, I'm no financial wizard, but it appears that DT is barely breaking even.

    3. Re:In contrast by mikrorechner · · Score: 1


      I'm in Germany right now and have been comparing DSL rates with my colleagues.

      Well, I'm from Germany, and I find your statement not entirely correct.

      First, Deutsche Telekom does not sell unbundled DSL lines. You have to have phone service from them to get DSL. POTS is ca. EUR15/month, most people nowadays order ISDN which is about EUR24/month, no minutes included respectively.

      The cheapest DSL line you can get is EUR16/month (1Mbit down, 128kbit up). ISP is not included with that. Since beginning of this year, prices for DSL ISP services have fallen tremendously, so that you can get a flatrate from EUR5/month in bigger cities and around EUR10/month everywhere else.

      In many areas, there are other phone companies than the former monopolist Deutsche Telekom. Hansenet offers their Alice DSL product in most big cities, and with them, a phone line, 6Mbit DSL line and unlimited volume costs you EUR50/month. For EUR60/month, you get the same plus unlimited national landline calls from Versatel.

      --
      "Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr I'm-my-own-Grandpa." - Dr Hubert Farnsworth
    4. Re:In contrast by mikrorechner · · Score: 1


      I would certainly hope that Deutsche Telekom DSL is cheaper than Baby Bell DSL. Germany (you) own 43% of it!

      The KfW, a state owned bank, and the Federal Republic of Germany together own 37% of Deutsche Telekom (source).

      Also, I'm no financial wizard, but it appears that DT is barely breaking even.

      Deutsche Telekom had an EBITDA 4.9 billion Euros in Q1 2005, with a turnover of 14.4 billion Euros (source).

      Please keep your facts straight.

      --
      "Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr I'm-my-own-Grandpa." - Dr Hubert Farnsworth
  18. But... but... but... by Leomania · · Score: 1

    This might be beneficial to the consumer! Has it come to this, that the FCC is floundering so badly as to do something that might actually be good for the consumer?

    But then again, is it beneficial? Or fair? Damn... all this stuff having to do with the power/communications infrastructure stuff is too darned complicated. My last dealings with the FCC were when I got my CB radio license back in, oh, 1980. What have they done for me lately? (cue Janet Jackson)

    --
    You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right.
    1. Re:But... but... but... by Sorthum · · Score: 1

      CB used to be licensed? I thought it was for anyone who wanted it, and HAM was the license class?

      --KB1JWQ

    2. Re:But... but... but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Initially, you received a CB license application when you bought a radio. These applications would be rubber-stamped by the FCC, and call letters issued (KWJZ439 or some such).

      By the 70s, when CB was really starting to catch on, the FCC decided that issuing CB licenses was more trouble than it was worth, and dropped the (often-ignored) requirement.

      Some say the Amateur service is undergoing the same degree of, er, democratization right now, with the move to drop Morse testing. It is easy to argue with those types, though, by pointing out that the worst operators are the "coders" that are already on HF SSB. It's difficult to imagine a few no-code newbies making the situation on 75 phone any worse...

    3. Re:But... but... but... by soupforare · · Score: 1

      A ham in my neighborhood!

      Yeah, you used to need a license and callsign but this practice was quickly and universally ignored during its height of popularity and AFAIK the FCC dropped the requirement.

      --
      --- Do you believe in the day?
    4. Re:But... but... but... by quarkscat · · Score: 1

      Actually, NO!

      The FCC has already granted the "baby Bells" the ability to "discourage" 3rd party DSL providers from access to "their" POTS wiring (paid for by taxpayers raped & pillaged by the AT&T monopoly) at wholesale prices. The various state legislatures have largely caved to the wishes of the telcos by eliminating/strangling 3rd party metro WiFi competition. The "9-11" requirement by the FCC for VoIP providers was more "sand under the wheels" for the telcos' competition. I see the unbundling of DSL service by the FCC only as yet another means for the "baby Bells" to increase their profit margins.

      The FCC has proved, time and again, that they are the friends of the telcos, not the consumers or taxpayers. Do not expect any better deal for consumers from the regime currently in power -- you will only be disappointed.

    5. Re:But... but... but... by lowrydr310 · · Score: 1
      Wasn't CB licensed the same way that GMRS is now? You technically need a license, but most people don't even bother.

      Most GMRS radios cover both FRS and GMRS bands, and the radios that I've used don't provide a clear distinction as to which service you're broadcasting on. Most users of FRS/GMRS radios only see channel numbers, which the manuals usually idicate which service the channel corresponds to.

      --a HAM operator who isn't very involved anymore and doesn't want to post his callsign on /. because his personal info can be looked up too easily

  19. FINALLY by scronline · · Score: 5, Informative

    Some good news coming from the FCC for a change. As an independant ISP using SBC transport it's been a huge pet peeve that they subsidize their DSL costs with their phone service(s). Until this new jerk got into the FCC it was actually illegal subsidization that was putting an unfair advantage in the hands of the telcos.

    Of course the fact that DSL is provided over a phone network that was built with tax dollars then handed over to the telcos to be maintained doesn't mean anything anymore...so why shouldn't they have a government sponsored monopoly.

    Of course this is flame bait for people who don't understand the way the economy works and how people like myself are important for getting services into remote areas that neither cable or the telcos actually care about until people like myself start complaining that we have large amounts of customers that went it in that area.

    1. Re:FINALLY by danielsfca2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      $telco = {"SBC", "Qwest", "BellSouth", "Verizon"};
      $cable = {"Comcast", "Time Warner", "Cablevision", "Charter", "Cox"};

      Don't buy it. FCC "might" but they never will. $telco will get what it wants, and what it wants is to force you to buy crappy phone service you don't need. $cable isn't interested in competing on price, so while they'll sell you the net without the TV, it'll cost you $55 a month anyway.

      Sorry to be a pessimist, but I just can't see this happening.

    2. Re:FINALLY by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      $cable isn't interested in competing on price, so while they'll sell you the net without the TV, it'll cost you $55 a month anyway.

      Am I the only one around here who thinks 4Mbps/512Kbps for $55 a month is a good deal?

      A T1 will still cost you $700/mo for 1544Kbps with Internet transit.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    3. Re:FINALLY by warpSpeed · · Score: 1
      Am I the only one around here who thinks 4Mbps/512Kbps for $55 a month is a good deal?

      Nope, I agree with that. It is a pretty good deal.

      A T1 will still cost you $700/mo for 1544Kbps with Internet transit.

      However you have to look at what you are getting here. The T1s are goverend by tarrifs and you are supposed to get a high(er) level of service, and a better responce to a reported troubles. And I generally do

      I would not put up an important website, or host my buisness on a DSL/cable line if I needed to have it working 99% of the time. While my cable Internet performance is good, it still goes down frequently after storms, and in the middle of the night for "maintinence" purposes. Not to mention the horrific slowdowns on snow days when the kiddies in the neighborhood have nothing better to do then stream music, and what not.

      A T1 cost more because of the infrastructure supporting it, and the level of service required by the local PUC.

    4. Re:FINALLY by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's a good point, and I've found that to be true in business-parks and the like, where there is some SONET nearby and they can route around an interruption.

      However, I have had T1's out for a day or more from Verizon, which the cable modem has only done when a tree fell on the line. In Verizon's case it's usually a 'software problem'. Adelphia has done some funky things in the middle of the night (which I see on MRTG) but they've actually been solid for nine months or so.

      If I had a T1 to my house, the T1 would have run on copper on the same poles as the cable modem backhaul does and face the same environmental problems. There's not a SONET running along the highway to my house, so I'd have a long-haul star branch to depend on.

      I almost expect, long-term, the cable plant will provide a separate path out of the other end of the cable line when they reach the next city, whereas Verizon will always feed me only out of the CO I'm assigned to. Whether or not the cable company will provide good routing to make use of those connections is a bit less predictable, where you'd expect Verizon to do so.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    5. Re:FINALLY by warpSpeed · · Score: 1
      Bill, all of these points are valid too. I have two bonded T1s (with Verizon as the ILEC) to the net, and they both run on copper. If a pole goes down near my place, I'm screwed with T1s or Cable. I have regular issues with the lines, but Verizon is pretty responsive (at least the local tech guys I deal with).

      I guess my point was more that you can call Verizon and (in theory) get them to actually respond. Yes it might take a day, but there will be a responce, and you can get trouble ticket, with real updates based on real info from them. With the cable companies... they are under very loose restrictions to provide quality of service. When you call to tell them your cable modem is down , the morons answering the phones tell you to reboot your windows PC. "What you run linux? We don't support that... click"

      As for the last mile I think the cable companies are going to keep doing the same thing in the long run as the Bells, setup everything in a star config, because it is cheaper, and the service is "good enough". The Bells may run sonnet into the more populated areas, but that is because "good enough" is a much higher standard for the bells with phone and data service. Us poor saps at the end of the copper lines will not get more reliable service from the cable companies, I fear, because there is no incentive for them to spend the money to provide it (yet).

      I hope at a minimum there is more competition sparked as a result of new technologies. Now if they would only market based on their reliability... I'm looking forwaard to WiMAX if anything to spark some more life into the local bandwidth offerings.

  20. Depends... by C10H14N2 · · Score: 1

    ...on who's lighting your fiber.

  21. It's called "monopoly maintenance" by overshoot · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Jack up the unregulated DSL price by enough that the discount for both DSL and voice makes the voice basically free.

    That way, nobody worth worrying about will even consider alternatives. That keeps the alternatives from getting big enough for network effects to make them attractive.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
  22. Since this is obviously a common misperception... by C10H14N2 · · Score: 1

    Do you honestly think it takes MORE power to send a photon down fiber than it does to send an electron down copper? Seriously. What the #$#ck do you people think powers POTS?!?! AIR?!?

    Geezuz. If people with this asinine notion of "golly, Ma Bell werks fer me, yer stupid wich yo IP fone" had any clue how much infrastructure runs on very, VERY well redundantly powered IP lines (like, for instance, your analog calls once they travel 50 feet past your #@#$ing driveway), you'd not even think of uttering this silly meme.

  23. Re:hmm by rajeshgoli · · Score: 1

    I doubt if it will stay at 15$ a month after the comptetion(read cable) has been stangled.

    --
    http://www.rajeshgoli.com
  24. Re:Since this is obviously a common misperception. by Sorthum · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No. I think that if YOUR network craps out, and YOUR internal voice traffic goes over that same network, the effect of this is left as an exercise for the reader. :-)

  25. cable modem and vonage... by HBI · · Score: 1

    Look really good in that situation, don't they?

    --
    HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
  26. nobody really uses landlines any more.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    nobody wants a land line.... so the mandatory bundle is really just a higher price for DSL.

  27. I feel your pain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So...."allowing customers to buy Internet access without traditional phone service would be costly to telecom providers."

    Wrong. They are not entitled to profits. McDonalds doesn't lose money if you don't buy a hamburger. A business doesn't lose money if you buy the competition's product.

    On the other hand, we all get screwed when businesses look at consumers as owing them profitablility. These Telecom's are the same folks trying to prevent cities from providing public internet access. As Joe Consumer, what costs them neccessarily pleases me.

    1. Re:I feel your pain by pe1chl · · Score: 1

      For a DSL line you need CO equipment, and a line.
      For a phoneline you need (different) CO equipment, nd a line as well.
      Becuase phoneline service existed first, the price includes the full tariff for the line. So, a DSL offer can, while it requires a line, disregard the cost of it. The customer is already paying it.

      Allowing DSL service without phone service at the same rate will cost the company money because the costs of the line are not recovered.
      You would have to split the phoneline bill in two parts: for the line and for the CO equipment and calls. Then, when you want only DSL you still pay for the line plus DSL service.

    2. Re:I feel your pain by Widowwolf · · Score: 1

      and you are not entitled to DSL with a company..go with thier competitor..no one is stopping..run free...it is your responsibility to read teh contract, know your terms, then agree to those terms..if those terms are not to your liking ...then dont sign up...

      --
      ~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
    3. Re:I feel your pain by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      The problem is that if you live in SBC-monopoly territory, you cant get DSL from *anyone* without getting phone service from DSL.

      And the only reason SBC can force this on you is that they currently have exclusive control over the existing copper wiring in the ground, wiring that was paid for by the guaranteed captive customers that the Bell's that SBC bought out received, and government subsidy. So those copper lines should be *public* property, and any company or individual should have the right to use them, in exchange for a *reasonable* fee to cover their maintenance.

    4. Re:I feel your pain by Widowwolf · · Score: 1

      Ok i have to point out only 1 fal;licy with your argument..you are wrong..not every line in SBC controlled territory was government subsidized...do your homework

      --
      ~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
    5. Re:I feel your pain by garver · · Score: 1

      The problem with public internet access (meaning paid for with tax dollars) is that it becomes a public utility, destroying the hope of last mile competition that wireless promises. For me, the hope in wireless for the last mile is that many service providers might be able to get to me instead of just the telco and the cableco. But if wireless becomes a public utility, then the only offering is going to be from your city government. It may seem free, but it costs tax revenue and without competition, is not likely to be implemented efficiently.

      I want to see competition and you're absolutely right: businesses are not owed profitibility. If a business sucks, it should die. A public utility will never die, no matter how much they suck.

    6. Re:I feel your pain by CalCudahy · · Score: 1

      Okay, I hate SBC with a passion matched only by my loathing of the post office, but I have to say that they deserve some protection. When McDonalds goes under you can still call an ambulance. Think for a second about how important the phone system is to society. Hell, I don't even mind paying a few bucks a month for the Universal Service Fee, so even the poorest can call 911. Competition is good, but until someone decides to build a completely parallel communications infrastructure, I think we're forced to protect the current maintainer of the system.

      --
      "I think the U.N. is going to find that the blame lies with all the Sudanese rap music that glamorizes genocide."
    7. Re:I feel your pain by Forbman · · Score: 1

      Allowing DSL service without phone service at the same rate will cost the company money because the costs of the line are not recovered.

      This is pretty much a red herring.

      How many new, physical phone lines are set up each day, vs the number of physical lines already established?

      All of the equipment, in most cases, is recovered in 2-4 years (it's certainly depreciated within 5 or 7). The costs of an actual phone line installation are spread out over the number of circuits per line. Which is why fiber is so bitchin' compared to copper. One splice for as many curcuits go down the fiber instead of 24x4, for a typical copper line. Of course, when it goes fibercopper, demuxing the fiber to copper invokes all those splices/junctions, it is the only place it has to be done. And once they're set up, they're left alone.

      The ILEC does not come out and rip out the phone line when service is discontinued by a customer. They run a little program on the 7ESS switch that turns off that number.

      Just like the cable companies do not bother to disconnect your cable anymore if you stop paying (you will probably still get analog channels...), they just turn off your digital service at the head end.

      Live where you do not have natural gas service? You can get it established if you pay to have the line extended to your house. Of course, then all everyone else in your neighborhood has to pay is the connection from the curb to the house... All future owners of your house do not then have to pay the same connect fee, they just get an acct established.

      Someone has to eat the initial costs. For the company, the rest is easy money once that initial physical hookup has been made.

    8. Re:I feel your pain by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      Even if the government didnt directly subsidize in terms of money, they were subsidized indirectly by having a government enforced monopoly - if you wanted or needed phone service, you *had* to get it from 'the phone company', and you had to pay what they charged for it.

      The courts properly recognized this, but the remedy (the breakup of AT&T) only fixed the problem in terms of long distance service, and for local service is just created more smaller geographic monopolies. You can tell this by the relative prices of each - long distance is either damn cheap or even free, yet basic hard-wired phone service will set you back at least $40/mo - and thats assuming you can convince them to sell you basic service, and not pressure you into going with one of their 'bundles'.

      Somewhere back there these (then) smaller monopolies agreed to 'compete' with each other, but that never materialized. I'm aware of no location where you can choose between, for example, Verizon and SBC for your local service.

      The smaller 'baby bells' also eventually grew up and did the corporate mating dance, so now instead of either several dozen geographic monopolies, or one hulking one, we have a small handfull, which are each just as bad as one, yet can more effectivly 'pretend' that there is competition in their market.

    9. Re:I feel your pain by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      Protect them from what, exactly? Not having lavish profits? I think we need to protect the public from the SBC's screwing them over in order to keep that basic 'ability to call an ambulance'. Personally I'd be in favor of an FCC order requiring every ILEC to offer a ~$5/mo 'emergency only' service, *and* that this counts as 'having service' for getting DSL from a third party on the line. That would solve quite a few problems, in fact.

    10. Re:I feel your pain by pe1chl · · Score: 1

      This is of course bullshit.
      When there are 1 million lines in an area that have cost 500 million to establish there is a 500 cost to recoup on every line. A subscriber will pay that over the time he uses the service. Of course there is no 500 to be gained back when that line is dismantled. So they don't do that.
      However, when you take away the possibility to recoup the cost of the local loop deployment, the phone company will definately go out of business.

      Sure you can (and should!) move infrastructural deployment like local loop, cable connections, gas connections from commercial companies to government service. Every house built should come with it, and it should be evenly paid via taxes so the price an individual pays is not dependent on the neighborhood his house happens to be in. That stimulates the even development of infrastructure in urban and non-urban areas. Commercial companies can offer their service on this infrastructure without being dependent on "whoever owns it".

      But the USA does not do that, and European countries are moving away from it. Bad move, sure. But explain that to them...

  28. Re:Since this is obviously a common misperception. by cameldrv · · Score: 2, Informative

    Analog lines have power for your phones built into them. This is maintained by generators at the switching station if the power goes out. If you have an IP phone at your home, you need another source of power.

    Furthermore, the technology in your IP phone is much more complicated and error-prone than the technology in conventional circuit switched telephony. A big reason for this is that conventional telephone reliability was historically and continues to be highly regulated. 5ESS switches actually achieve six nines reliability. IP is much newer, more complicated, and has not been subjected to the same degree of regulation, and so the reliability standard is lower.

  29. Yeah right... by ImaLamer · · Score: 3, Informative

    Not when Time Warner won't sell me the cable connection without taking up cable service!

    At least my phone bill hasn't gone up 40% in the past two years. I'm not making the typical antiCable complaint here, I'm just saying that for the record my phone bill hasn't gone up since 2000. They've added features and even thrown in free long distance (30 minutes per month) but they haven't raised the price.

    Vonage isn't even old enough to tell what they will do. Besides, we get a lot of bad storms here - I'd like to talk on the phone when the power goes out without using a UPS or gas generator.

    1. Re:Yeah right... by HBI · · Score: 1

      Do you have a hardwired, line-powered handset?

      How many people do, anymore?

      Do you think that perhaps, when cordless phones became the rule rather than the exception, that maybe people's expectations of POTS dropped to the same as their expectations for power?

      I know we had a blackout here two Sundays ago and I heard the neighbors scurrying around for the cell phone so they could make the call. Sounds silly, but it's the truth.

      --
      HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
    2. Re:Yeah right... by fireboy1919 · · Score: 3, Informative

      FUD. I've had TimeWarner Cable since 1997 in Central Florida, but only for cablemodem, and not for anything else. The price hasn't gone up in that time, but the quality of service has gone WAY up.

      I now get 5 Mb/s for $50 (it was $50 a month in '97 too), and that speed never changes.

      --
      Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
    3. Re:Yeah right... by Octorian · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but good luck at getting >384K upstream without being charged an arm and a leg for every minor incremental bump.

    4. Re:Yeah right... by valeriyk · · Score: 1

      My upload and download are both 1mb/s, almost T1 speeds for $45/month, and minimal downtime

    5. Re:Yeah right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm gonna have to agree with fireboy, both on the fact that my parents have had TW cablemodem w/o cable TV service for years, and the fact that TW has excellent quality cablemodem service. My only remaining gripe is the price, but I guess you get what you pay for.

      That said, I have had an excellent connection when I was with SBC as well. I only changed providers for the higher speed (which came at a higher price).

    6. Re:Yeah right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you sure you are getting 5, I just spoke with a coworker this morning, he was complaining how much the line drop (that's why I switched to DSL with Vz) and the speed is consistently at 2Mb/s range.

    7. Re:Yeah right... by Rude+Turnip · · Score: 1

      Everyone with POTS service should have a backup wired phone for emergencies, even if you stick it in the closet. I think a manual for a cordless phone I bought for my mother even said as much. Most cordless phones these days have a speakerphone and dial pad in the base, anyway. Even if you don't have POTS service, but have the jacks, you can still use the line to dial 911 in emergencies.

    8. Re:Yeah right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $50 a month gets me 1Mbs Up/ 5 Mbs Down with RCN. This is without their cable TV service.

    9. Re:Yeah right... by Kick+the+Donkey · · Score: 1

      I believe that that the Florida PSC (public service commission) ruled that you could NOT require bundled services to get high speed Internet. At least, I know they did that for BellSouth.

      --
      /. is a bunch of nerds at a million typewriters. It's not a political conspiracy determined to undermine your beliefs.
    10. Re:Yeah right... by naoursla · · Score: 1

      Time Warner let me get Roadrunner without television access.

    11. Re:Yeah right... by toy4two · · Score: 1

      I call BS. I just got a letter *yesterday* from Time Warner Cable in San Diego regretting to inform me that the cost for RoadRunner will be going up to $49.95 for customers who do not subscribe to any cable tv packages. F-that. First they tell me I can't use my own cable modem and save some money on the bill, now they are jacking up the rates. I don't need 6 MPBS down to read email and surf the web. So I'm going to SBC. Some careful reasearch reveals that if you get SBC's Measure Rate local phone service (all I have is a cell phone) its is $5.70 a month, what they don't tell you is that you will be getting $6.00 more a month in govt fees! The FCC fee is alone $4.90 of that! So figure $14.95 + taxes for DSL then another $10 (including taxes) you get 1.5 down for $25 a month, still 1/2 the price of cable. Adios Time Warner, your recent $5 increase has broken the camels back. I'll be with Verizon FIOS as soon as it is offered and cancel DSL in a year.

    12. Re:Yeah right... by ImaLamer · · Score: 1

      Do you have a hardwired, line-powered handset?

      Just bought one from eBay for 8 bucks... the best phone I've ever owned. It's an old ITT classic.

    13. Re:Yeah right... by ImaLamer · · Score: 1

      I can't even order it here (you must first have cable then cancel it or threaten to before that option becomes available to customers).

      AC's are coming out of the woodwork to point out that you have to pay extra for Road Runner without cable TV services! Why should they penalize you for not wanting cable TV?

      Well, I know why. I just don't like the answer.

    14. Re:Yeah right... by fireboy1919 · · Score: 1

      Yes. To be sure, I don't saturate the bandwidth most of the time. Its kind of hard to do so, because the other side is mostly the limiting factor.

      The one reliable test I've been able to do is downloading from Sun.

      I consistently get an average rate of about 600KB/sec. Of course, cable varies from place to place; cable quality and number of users varies highly as its really lots of little intranets all tied together rather than a giant one like it is for DSL, so its something you just have to try in your area to know if its any good.

      --
      Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
    15. Re:Yeah right... by cpeterso · · Score: 1


      Comcast charges me an extra $15/month because I have cable internet without cable TV.

    16. Re:Yeah right... by zxnos · · Score: 1

      in my area it is $10/month. i dont understand the reasoning. even with the 'bundle discount' i still would pay more money for internet and tv. dont penalize me for not wanting tv. i will just go elsewhere when i find a better deal.

      --
      always mosh clockwise
    17. Re:Yeah right... by Breakfast+Pants · · Score: 1

      "Most cordless phones these days have a speakerphone and dial pad in the base, anyway."
       
      Most of these still don't work unless the power brick is plugged in. They don't function at all off of line power.

      --

      --

      WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
    18. Re:Yeah right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least my phone bill hasn't gone up 40% in the past two years. I'm not making the typical antiCable complaint here, I'm just saying that for the record my phone bill hasn't gone up since 2000.

      Do you live in an area where your phone service is regulated by the state? I live in an SBC service area and my phone service has gone up by 25% since January 2005. When we recently moved, we dropped our SBC landline and now rely on our cell phones for phone service.

      Also, SBC will NOT sell you DSL without local phone service and a 1 year contract.

      With Time/Warner, I don't have a contract and I can buy RoadRunner service without having to buy Time/Warner's cable TV.

      Bob

  30. Why? by Master+of+Transhuman · · Score: 2, Informative

    "allowing customers to buy Internet access without traditional phone service would be costly to telecom providers."

    The same assholes provide cellular as provide land lines - and the only threat to landlines is cellular right now - VoIP is not yet a threat (but will be.)

    They're gonna charge you up the yin-yang either for cellular or landline, so who cares which it is? DSL is not relevant to that. Anybody who has DSL probably has cellular anyway - albeit perhaps in addition to landline. If they dumped landline, said customer would stop paying $15-20/month for his few landline calls, and make up the difference on his cellular anyway. It would probably be a wash.

    The only reason landline is a cash cow is because they've paid for the infrastructure long ago. In a few years the cellular towers and systems will be paid for as well - or be replaced by wireless nodes anyway, probably hanging on the same towers.

    The only thing not paid for is wireless (which is cheaper anyway) or fiber to the home (which isn't cheap at all, but critical to delivery of media content - unless wireless can hit 100MB to the home soon, in which fiber to the home might as well be dropkicked.)

    --
    Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
    1. Re:Why? by Widowwolf · · Score: 1

      ok not all companies who offer landlines offer wirless, and vice versa...#! SBC owns only 60% of cingular..every dollar that they lose off thier base land line business is thiers and thiers alone. Even with people switching over to cell phones it doesnt make up for he whole cost..with so many people having night and weekend free, cheap as hell minute plans and some even having free national long distance plans, any major company is gonna lose some dough there as compared to land lines..#2 The major companies didnt pay for most of the infrastructure(back in the at&t days when they were subsidized by the government)...#3 you will not see fiber to the home unless a) the homeowner pays for it themselves, b) it is a brand new home ..what you will get is fiber to the premises, which means the rest of your house will be the same, but from the switching box back to the main station will be fiber..

      --
      ~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
    2. Re:Why? by Master+of+Transhuman · · Score: 1

      "from the switching box back to the main station will be fiber.."

      Uhm, that's what they call "fiber to the home"...I wasn't assuming the whole house will be wired with fiber and neither is anyone else when FTTH is discussed.

      Not all companies offer wireless - and which of the majors doesn't? Who cares about the smaller outfits when discussing regulatory matters?

      Cheap minutes? Who offers the plans? They WANT people to switch from landline to wireless because they make more profit there! Are you saying they want people to switch because they DON'T? They just want people to have BOTH? Well, sure they do - and they'd sell you a car, too, if they could - but they can't. Anybody in the cellular business should know it is obvious that once you have a decent cell phone and a decent plan, who needs landline?

      If the major companies were subsidized by the government, that makes the landline cash cow even more so. That still doesn't mean they're going to LOSE money if people switch to something else. They're just not going to make as MUCH money - and I still say that is questionable.

      The phone companies are NEVER going to lose money (except on dumb investments) - unless wireless from third parties become ubiquitous (which it might).

      --
      Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
    3. Re:Why? by Widowwolf · · Score: 1

      #1 every telco should be discussed when talking about regulatory issues due to the fact that they are competition..to show that SBC has competition, they look at anyone with the telco licensing in an area...including companies woth 100 subscibers.. Just wait until an emergency when the cell phones are locked out(like in London during the bombings) and you have no way to get a hold of anyone...The only things that were subsidized by the government was lines out to rural items..if you were a telco wouldnt you want your profit?...the only reason it remains bundled right now is the same way game companies make profit, sell the consoles cheap(dsl) and make money off the games(land line service)

      --
      ~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
  31. Actually, there's no authentication... by supersat · · Score: 1

    From what I can tell, if you have an active DSL line provisioned by them, you're good to go. Back when I had my naked DSL installed, I plugged in a borrowed ADSL modem into the test jack in the wiring closet, plugged it into my PDA, and got online. This was a week before my line was officially activated by Covad (who did the internal wiring).

  32. In Finland by Max+Romantschuk · · Score: 1

    In Finland there was a law change which forced the telephone operators to lease their wiring to anyone who wanted. In my area I can get unbundled DSL from around 20-ish competitors, and in fact we don't even have a regular phone, only cellulars.

    Even the pricing is OK these days, I pay about 20 EUR / month for 1Mb/512Kb. Faster rates are available, up to 24Mb ADSL2 for those who want/need it.

    --
    .: Max Romantschuk :: http://max.romantschuk.fi/
    1. Re:In Finland by pe1chl · · Score: 1

      In the Netherlands we have a similar situation. Unfortunately the lease price for a bare line is not much below the cheapest phone rate (lowest monthly rate with highest per-minute rate) so it is not very attractive. You save maybe 2 euro per month when you do not call.

      Furthermore, those that offer unbundled DSL are usually the cowboys in the market. They have a big mouth full of promises and the lowest rates, but they are also in the top-10 of all consumer complaint lists. When your line works, you are lucky. When it doesn't, the end of the story is many frustrated phonecalls away.

      Our ex-state-monopoly telecom company KPN still offers the best DSL network. They are not the cheapest, but for me that is not the only thing that counts.

    2. Re:In Finland by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In India I get DSL, 512K download, 128K upload for $9 a month. This is DSL over ATM w/ 375MB free download. After that I pay 4c per MB.
      The connection has been pretty good and up almost all times.

    3. Re:In Finland by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      Ah, but are you sure it is the third part DSL providers fault if they have problems? I'd tend to suspect that the telco that is being forced to lease their lines is prviding the worst wires and services they can get away with for the lines being serviced by their competitors. This has pretty much always been the case in the US, no matter how loudly the Bells might claim otherwise.

    4. Re:In Finland by pe1chl · · Score: 1

      No, the problem is not with the local loop.
      The problem is that they promise more than that they can really deliver, often because they do not test (to gain an advantage over the established phone company that always test first and evaluates the technical and ordering system before offering at a large scale).
      Advertisements are run and customers enlisted months before the service is even available, which of course causes support call peaks right at the worst possible time.

      The whole "we can do it! we are better! our rates are lower!" image that they try to establish of course flies directly back in their face when it turns out that they cannot do it and their downtimes are excessive.

      I would say it is their own fault, caused by their over-ambitious rollout plans and under-estimation of customer service, but I understand that from the viewpoint of a make-money-quick manager it costs too much money to do slow start.

    5. Re:In Finland by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      My point was, are you sure that 'the service not being available yet' is the fault of the newcomer, and not the incumbent dragging their feet on allowing the newcomer access to its facilities? The new competitor is reliant on the incumbent to give it access to and configure a critical portion of its infrastructure - it (the incumbent) could easily promise availability by a certain date, upon with the newcomer relies when advertising, and then fail to do so, or provide the resourse, but have it missing some vital part or configured incorrectly, causing delays.

    6. Re:In Finland by pe1chl · · Score: 1

      Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence...

    7. Re:In Finland by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      And be especially wary of the malicious ignorant. They are too stupid to do it right if they had motive to do so, and they have many motives *not* to do so. (The incumbents, that is)

  33. BellSouth is a Bad Guy Too by droops · · Score: 1

    My wife and I use cell phones, we only have a phone line only for DSL. DSL costs us $43 a month. BUT in order to qualify for the PRIVILEGE of BELL SOUTH DSL we have to have the 40$ phone service. So yeah I can get a phone for 12 bucks but then I dont get DSL. Phone services are a big cashcow for these companies. I think I'll piss on the bell south tower at Phreaknic again this year. Since I have given bell south almost $500 since last year for the privilege of DSL.

    1. Re:BellSouth is a Bad Guy Too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't paying South Bell for the privilege of DSL like paying for the privilege of sucking avocados up your nose? OK, if you get the premium business service they peel the avocado first, which helps, but it's still an awkward burden that makes your sneezes dangerous to innocent bystanders.

    2. Re:BellSouth is a Bad Guy Too by bcattwoo · · Score: 1
      BUT in order to qualify for the PRIVILEGE of BELL SOUTH DSL we have to have the 40$ phone service.

      Really? I have DSL through a local ISP and the cheapest BS local service ($15+~$8 "fees") with no problems. Never saw anything on the BS website that said you need to have anything more than the basic service. It's not cheap but its cheaper.

    3. Re:BellSouth is a Bad Guy Too by ccoder · · Score: 1

      or $183 for a business line/dsl....

      See you at phreaknic, show me where the tower is :)

      -Iridium

      --
      "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" -- George Orwell
    4. Re:BellSouth is a Bad Guy Too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When VoIP is rolled out, DSL at BellSouth will go naked and the costs will come down.

  34. In Australia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You pay $29 month for a fixed landline, nothing included. Cant get DSL if you dont have a landline, and then they want $30 month for 600megs, and extortive per Mb after that.
    Bundles are cheaper, but the regulator is blind that $348 year for a copper wire is excessive.

  35. DoJ orders AT&T to divest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Lemme get this straight. In 1982, AT&T divested itself of its local services by "agreement" with the US Department of Justice. This led to seven "Baby Bells". Three of those Baby Bells have merged and are now going to re-merge with former parent AT&T. Two other of those Baby Bells have merged and are going to merge with MCI.

    How soon before MCI and AT&T merge and we're back where we were before 1982? Sure, they'll have to unbundle some more services, but such a merger is entirely plausible.

    I thought deregulation of 1982 and the Telco Act of 1996 were supposed to give us choice. A choice of two or three should still be better than a choice of one, but when the Big Three (in whatever industry) offer the same products, services and customer service, is there really a choice?

    1. Re:DoJ orders AT&T to divest by Widowwolf · · Score: 2, Informative

      The only way that they are being allowed to remerge back together is if it is shown that there is enough other competition available. I work as a rep for SBC, and let me tell you, due to cell phones and voip, we are losing landlines like the Titanic was losing passengers. They have already laid off a lot of people becuase of this and once we merge with AT&t we will be losing several thousand more...

      --
      ~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
    2. Re:DoJ orders AT&T to divest by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately the breakup of AT&T only gave choice for long distance. The local bells never competed with each other for wired service - each one had its own slice of the geographic monopoly pie.

    3. Re:DoJ orders AT&T to divest by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      Maybe we will be lucky and someday the ILEC's (wether they all merge back together or not) will be forced into backruptcy, and will have to auction off their copper plants to someone that will use them to provide decent service.

      And yes, people are turning to VoIP and cell, but that still leaves one up shit creek without a paddle for broadband - you get to choose from either your monoply cable company, your monopoly phone company or (and this is if you are very *lucky* - imagine that) get to choose DSL from a third party, but run over wires controlled by the monoply phone company, from who you are *required* to purchase phone service anyway to qualify, wether you want it or not)

      Anytime one is forced to pay for something one doesnt want in order to pay for something one does want, and no one else in the market is allowed to sell the items seperately, is a piss-poor situation, and usually means there is an abusive monopoly involved.

  36. could just do what cable companies do... by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

    with Comcast, you dont need to buy the "Bundle", but if you buy internet without TV, it costs more than getting internet with TV.

    --
    -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
    1. Re:could just do what cable companies do... by statemachine · · Score: 1

      You worded your statement oddly, so a reader might have some confusion. My apologies in advance if this offends you.

      Comcast HSI (High Speed Internet) by itself costs less than HSI + TV. However, if one buys the bundle, HSI gets a discount. But, the discounted HSI + TV still costs more than unbundled HSI!

    2. Re:could just do what cable companies do... by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

      incorrect. Not at all what I meant. (at least here, near Atlanta)

      Comcast High Speed Internet by itself costs $1 more than a bundle containing Comcast High Speed Internet + Basic Cable

      --
      -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
    3. Re:could just do what cable companies do... by statemachine · · Score: 1

      Interesting. Out here in San Jose, CA it's the way I've described. Must be regional...

  37. I tried with Verizon by ArchieBunker · · Score: 1

    Verizon will sell you a dry loop but you must ask for it. I already have dsl and phone service with them and wanted a dry loop for a voip phone. What their site doesn't tell you is that they will charge a $199 "rolling truck" fee for running a new line to your address. Hardly worth it if you ask me, considering my old line handles dsl just fine. You can't tell me theres no other way around this.

    --
    Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
  38. pure DSL already available by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've ran into this issue recently when I moved and wanted Verizon DSL. First I was told that it was not possible the get DSL without paying additionally for a wired telephone landline. When I finally asked to speak to the supervisor it was suddenly "no problem at all" and I got my DSL. This way I am saving quite a bit of money since I am using VoIP anyways. Asking and being determined always pays. Literally.

  39. Actually... by johnashby · · Score: 1
    What have they done for me lately? (cue Janet Jackson)

    Please don't cue Janet Jackson. The FCC becomes far less sensible in her presence.

  40. Fiber coming too. by SpaceTaxi · · Score: 2, Informative

    In eastern PA, where I live, Verizon is rolling out a fiber optic network. Up to 30MB downstream, 5MB upstream. http://www22.verizon.com/FiOSforhome/channels/FiOS /root/faq.asp

    They also have been quietly offering $14.95 naked DSL as part of a deal with Yahoo. http://www.internetnews.com/xSP/article.php/352935 1

    I tried to see if I could sign up for this services and drop my dial tone, but they are only offering it to new customers. I ended up ordering Comcast cable at a promotional rate of $19.95 with the idea of switching again to whatever is the best deal.

  41. unbundled DSL in NYC... in principle by ahs · · Score: 1

    Last month I ordered unbundled DSL from Speakeasy in NYC. It cost $100 extra for a technician installation (mandatory) and a bit extra per month, but I figured no biggie.

    One month later the Verizon technician had failed to set up the wiring necessary to provide this line. In exasperation I ordered a land line and changed my DSL order to piggyback on top of it. Within a week Verizon had set up the wiring for the phone line, and a few days after that Speakeasy had the DSL up, with self-install, no technician necessary.

    I'm so mad at Verizon I am going to cancel my cell service with them... what else can I do; I want to keep my DSL!

  42. HOWTO Get out of your SBC DSL contract by macdaddy · · Score: 1

    It's realy quite easy. Call up SBC and tell them you're moving. Where you tell that you're moving is the key. You have to pick a place that does not have ANY SBC service. Rural areas work well (such as my tiny home town of 231 people). If SBC does not have coverage in that area they have to let you out of the contract. That's their policy and they adhere to it. I've moved twice now to areas that didn't (yet in some cases) have SBC coverage and was let out of my contract. I'm considering doing that right now even though I'm really not moving. They've raised my DSL and phone prices 3 months in a row. The only downside to "moving" like this is that you lose you telephone number. If you're like me that really doesn't matter. Only a handful of people call me and I can just as easily tell them all the new number. Moving forward I think I'm going to use Vonage.

    1. Re:HOWTO Get out of your SBC DSL contract by Widowwolf · · Score: 1

      As a rep for SBC, that is not thier policy..that was very nice customer service..if you sign up for a year contract, and you break it by moving..we can charge you up to the disconnect fee...just be lucky you got out of it free last time

      --
      ~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
    2. Re:HOWTO Get out of your SBC DSL contract by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      A good reason to avoid SBC if you can - they dont like the fact that the FCC allows competitors, so they use 'termination fees' to discourage you from exercisizing that choice. Of course, most people don't find out about the termination fees until *after* they've already signed up and realized that there is a better choice.

      In fact, if there is a year contract, and SBC raises its prices, I would consider that to be *them* breaking the contract, and consider it no longer binding, but Im sure their crafty lawyers wrote language in the contract that says you agree they can raise their prices to whatever they want. Again, most dont find out until its too late.

      Heres another question - did you actually *sign* anything? If so then the contact isnt binding anyway, at least not any term requirement - probably 'you agree to our terms if you continue using our service' is only valid if you have the choice to no longer agree and stop using the service. If I was ever in that situation and decided I wanted to leave I'd do so, and when they tried to bill me the outrageous termination fee I'd take them to court over it. Of course, I'm informed enough to never agree to any sort of contact like that in the first place, so we'll never get to see the outcome of that.

      Maybe someone at the FCC will get smart and as well as requiring SBC to allow people to get DSL without forcing them to get phone from SBC, prohibit termination/disconnect fees too. The only reason the ILEC's 'own' the copper plants is becuase they were able to pay for them over dozens of years with guaranteed incoming from captive customers. The copper should belong to the people, NOT the monopoly telco's, and be regulated as such,

      (IANAL)

    3. Re:HOWTO Get out of your SBC DSL contract by Widowwolf · · Score: 1

      and here we go on your second post about being wrong..any time you call the company to set up a new line, you are thereby explained that it is a 1 year contract(SOP, if they didnt then you got a bad rep).As far as contractual obligations go, any time you sign up for a service with SBC, they record your call(which it is noted before the call) so as to have a copy of the contract..Also in the terms and coditions, at any variance of said contract, you have the right to terminate your contract...and that same contract is what you sign with most wireless companies...do i hear you complaining against them...they give you phones that should cost 600+ dollars for next to nothing in exchange for your commitment. Same thing with DSL. I would love to see you goto court with that type of lawsuit..you would lose in about 10 minutes flat after they played the recording..And once again to your other statement of the people owning the lines...no not true...while some was government subsidized..most was not...do you think the government should also own the power lines and gas lines?...Once again do your homework before trying to argue about something you know absolutely nothing about

      --
      ~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
    4. Re:HOWTO Get out of your SBC DSL contract by macdaddy · · Score: 1

      Both times I moved they states that it was their policy. The auto-generated form letters that were mailed to me stating that my DSL contracts had been terminated also stated that this was SBC policy. The form letters were identical when I moved in 2000 and again when I moved in 2003. FYI.

    5. Re:HOWTO Get out of your SBC DSL contract by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      Yes Im sure they mention the contact but I'm sure they dont mention the hefty termination fee. And if you are allowed to terminate the contact without the termination fee if they raise their rates, then that is good - I'm not sure if you are saying that or not, but I'd be surprised if it was true - I'm sure the contract (do you even get to *read* the actual contract before agreeing/being bound to it? - if not I'm sure that alone might be sufficient to render it void) is written in sufficiently weaslly terms so as to allow the telco to do whatever they want. In any case I dont and never will sign up for any phone service that takes away my right to switch to a different provider, or that forces me to give them money for nothing if I do so, so this has no direct bearing on me, it just adds fuel to my disgust for abusive monopolies in general, and SBC in particular.

      And I answered your bit about the lines not being subsidized seperately - maybe not directly, but they had a government-granted monopoly giving them guaranteed customers and profits - pretty much everyone needed a phone line, and they had only one choice. And the rural plants were only installed *after* they had a good profit base built up in more dense areas.

      And yes I think the wireless companies are just as bad, but for wireless there isnt any situation where only *one* company has exclusive control over a required resource. And many companies do offer a pre-paid option with no contract. Multiple wireless companies can compete on an equal footing, and the ones that serve their customers better succeed - which is not the case for any CLEC competing with an ILEC - there are a hundred ways that ILEC's and and do impede the CLEC from being able to provide good service. And the ILEC's of course have an unspoken agreement not to compete - at least for local wired service. The only cases where you'd have a choice between ILEC's without having to move is in the vary rare case when a small independent ILEC decided to move into a nearby larger ILEC's territory - you'll never see an overlap in the 'big telcos' wired coverage areas.

      And as far as power lines and gas lines, yes they are also geographic monopolies (and I hate having no choice), but they are both very heavily regulated. The ILEC's want to use (or have used, in some cases) the tiny little bit of competition that has begun with the 1998 act, as an excuse to get out of the regulation, so that they can kill the barely-off-the-ground competitors before they have a chance to get enough customers to build their own infrastructure (assuming that would ever be possible, considering the rights-of-way problems, reluctance to allow a second copper plant to be installed, and other barriers in their way)

      To be honest, the installed copper plant *is* a natural geographic monopoly, just like power and gas lines, and ought to continue to be regulated as such. Mandatory open access, fair access to all. Personally I think structural seperation is the way to go, but Im not holding my breath. It would allow the 'switched services' part of the ILEC's to be subject to less regulation, and it would give the new 'copper loop' part motivation to sell loops on a fair basis. But those with monopoly power will use their last breath to fight anything that would ever have a chance of causing them to lose it.

      The ILEC's like to claim copper is obsolete, but they dont seem to want to invest in anything new without the guaranteed cash-cow profits that the copper plant gives them. Wether 'fiber is the future' or not is irrelevant. Right now copper is the present, and without being able to use that copper (that was paid for many times over by either the govertnment or captive customers of the 'old' phone company(ies)), the odds of there ever being real competition doesnt stand a chance.

      And as far as my not knowing anything about it, think again - I worked as the Network Engineer for a regional dialup ISP for 8 years, and as such interacted with multiple ILEC's and CLEC's at both the administrative and technical levels for services ranging from individual copper lines, straight T1, channelized T1, on up to DS3 over fiber. I dont have any homework to do - I've been there already.

    6. Re:HOWTO Get out of your SBC DSL contract by Widowwolf · · Score: 1

      Well considering how many statements you say that are incorrect and misleading, i would swear that you didnt...#1 yes you do have the option to listen to the contract..that is your choice whether you want to or not...yes they do forgive the terminatioon fee in case of a change of conntract(you should know this one and it only applies to dsl lines), but if people would listen to thier contract they would know that..problem is most people dont want to read contracts...thats thier problem..

      And how is this a government granted monopoly...#1 telecom up until now has vbeen very heavyily regulated..in prices, the fact that they could not offer certain types of services without enough competition...i would love to see that with Windows...

      As with the Fiber comment, SBC is rolling out a 3.5 billion dollar plan over the next 7 years to roll FTTP..they are investing in teh future..that is what will provide them with the mans for over the fiber TV, movies, DSL, phone and other such things...Last year AT&T(before talks of the buyout) choose to bring local wired service to California...They were going to do it in SBC wired county's....They did begin, but it stopped due to the buyout...

      SO my summary is #1if a customer didnt read thier contract tough shit..#2 You dont have to use wired phone service..you can get by enough with wireless alone, i hjave my wireless phone and a great Hi Speed cable line..all which cost me about 100$ a month..THAT IS YOUR CHOICE!, #3 you still have facts misplaced and are still skewing your judgement to not be wrong...Oh well cant change your mind...

      --
      ~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
    7. Re:HOWTO Get out of your SBC DSL contract by Widowwolf · · Score: 1

      Well i look at our policy right here and it says that for no reason except Natural Disaster, Death, Customer relations issues(only within the first 30 days) or Imprisonment, shall the customer be relieved form the fee.

      --
      ~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
    8. Re:HOWTO Get out of your SBC DSL contract by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      So you couldnt get out of a 1 year contract for *phone service* if SBC decides to double their prices? Only if the change DSL prices?

      You really expect people to have time to sit and *listen* to what I am sure is a half an hour recording before ordering phone service? No, SBC knows full well that no one listens to it, and I doubt they offer any option for you to receive and read a printed copy of it (or if they do, that they dont mention that unless someone specifically asks), and they know full well that a certain portion of people that sign up will be unhappy, and cancel, and that SBC gets to collect this fee which is their way of being 'entitled' to profits even if their service sucks. And regardless of wether they do the bare minimum for it to be *legal* or not, it is still sleazy and underhanded.

      And the monopolies I am talking about are the one prior to the 1998 act, and the one prior to the AT&T breakup- where there was *NO* choice for wired phone service, and the companies *were* regulated, and *were* a government guaranteed monopoly. The 1998 act provided just a sliver of an option for there to not be a monopoly, and over the past few years the ILEC's have vastly exaggerated how much 'competition' there is to weasel out of as much regulation as they can, even the very regulation that enables that competition to barely continue to survive. Their view is that *any* competition is a *huge* amount of competition, so of course now its fair to allow them to use their still-existing exclusive control of the wires to blast the newcomers out of business.

      MS is also a monopoly, but is held in place wth different pins. They suck, and so does their platform, and while I wouldnt mind them being forced to fully document their 'Office' file formats and all their networking protocols so as to allow for true interoperability with anyone that cared to implement them, I am starting to feel hopeful that MS will be undone anyway. I look for the Massachusets decisions to start the barrel rolling away from MS 'DOC' as the de-facto format for exchanging info.

      And yes I know you dont have to use a wired phone, but its the only type of phone that will stay on with no power, and the ILEC's talk out both sides of their mouth. If the subject is about them sharing the copper, they say the copper is obsolete anyway, and that competitors should be forced to build their own network (which they know is economically impossible). Then when the subject is either marketing their services, or regulation of the newcomers, they talk about how only a copper line can provide reliability, and want to force competitiors such as VoIP to provide equivalant service, such as 911.

      Im sure as an employee of SBC you either beleive or are required to beleive they are not an evil monopoly, but trust me, they are. And I look forward to holding just as big of a grave-dancing party for SBC as I will for MS.

    9. Re:HOWTO Get out of your SBC DSL contract by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NO any contract you are in, when rates change, you have the option of leaving the agreement. You can get a printed copy, hell they even ask you if you would like one when you ordering your service..you can also go to your local branch and pick a copy up.It is not SBC's fault if people are to lazy and to much in a rush to know what they are getting into..just like it is not the Dealerships fault, if they find you a loan and its 24% interest, and you dont realize it till later...you came into agreement with the company..it is your responsibility to ask the questions and know the facts before signing a contract..There is nothing sleazy about it...(and by the way there are not usually contracts for local service only DSL and sometimes long distance) Hey any newcomer can come in, Lay thier own lines themselves and provide people with service...no one is stopping them..Copanies dont have to get bought out by other companies..they make the choice..here where i love i have my choice of 3 phone companies(wired) 7 dsl providers and 2 cable providers.Ok whjen you speak..we speak of now...no one cares about what happened in 1998..read the freaking article..this is about today..stop trying to justify your previous misstatements by retracting to the past, and trying ot make excuse for them..They cannot exxagerate how much competition they have because its the Public Utilities Commision's job to have that information...they are individually state run (means government jobs)..try a new lie for that one..as for wired phones, you dont wanta contract, go to a payphone..No one has ever said that the competittors should build thier own network..it was the competitors who claimed year after year of using SBC lines that they would build thier own network, and yet only 1 has..You keep digging yourself in deeper and deeper holes no matter how much try sleazing your way out of it....And as an SBC employee, i dont think they are a monopoly because i see plenty of competition...that and i dont even like the contracts that SBC puts out...HENCE WHY I CHOOSE NOT TO HAVE SERVICE WITH THEM...Hey any disaster happens,there are plenty of places to go to use phones....what are neighbors for..And no i do not get brainwashed by m,y company...the only reason i am speaking of SBC is because i know our policies and our contracts...while you appear to no just about nothing...good day sir

    10. Re:HOWTO Get out of your SBC DSL contract by macdaddy · · Score: 1

      That's weird. I still have both letters. I kept the original docs in the boxes that my original Speedstreams came in. I'll dig them out and find someone to scan them.

    11. Re:HOWTO Get out of your SBC DSL contract by Widowwolf · · Score: 1

      also what states were you living in at that time..

      --
      ~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
    12. Re:HOWTO Get out of your SBC DSL contract by macdaddy · · Score: 1

      Kansas. These were both in-state moves to areas that did not have SBC DSL service and one area that didn't have any SBC service of any kind.

  43. Re:hmm by yawn9 · · Score: 1

    How much does that bundled telephone line cost you on top of that $15? Include all taxes and surcharges.

  44. Re:hmm by smooth+wombat · · Score: 0, Troll
    We all use our cell phones to make all our calls, local and long-distance.

    No WE all don't. Some of us don't have cell phones and don't a want cell phone. Some of us don't even have long distance service because we don't need it or have other ways of calling long distance.

    We don't need a land line anymore.

    You may not but I can guarantee that there are millions of people in this country who, for various reasons, do need a landline.

    Don't make such broad assumptions simply because of your needs. Contrary to popular opinion there are those of us who don't give a shit about being connected everywhere and at all times.

    --
    We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
  45. Re:Since this is obviously a common misperception. by unitron · · Score: 1
    " Do you honestly think it takes MORE power to send a photon down fiber than it does to send an electron down copper?"

    My ears cannot hear light, my mouth cannot speak it. It's not about power level, it's about complexity, or, more precisely, lack of complexity. As long as the local phone co. has that room full of tractor batteries down at the central office I don't have to worry about not being able to use the phone if my power goes out.

    --

    I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

  46. SBC/Yahoo DSL by zenray · · Score: 2, Informative

    As a matter of fact since I have SBC phone service anyway I just, two days ago, upgraded my dial-up to SBC/Yahoo DSL service for only $14.95. So far I just have an old and very temporary Windows system up but the DSL modem takes care of the PPPoE connection. I'll soon have a SmoothWall firewall up and my Slackware Linux systems back on the internet. My biggest problem right now is with Yahoo. There is some kind of self helper that is trying to install an updates already. I think the type of web space with this account is just what Yahoo allows me to 'custom design' on my site. I could not find any datails on where to ftp my existing web pages. I might loose my web presence on the internet - no great loss to the internet I'm sure.

    --
    zenray
  47. Too funny by CProgrammer98 · · Score: 1

    Being a UK resident, I just find this highly amusing. Our phone and internet access have always been seperate items. Before broadband took off, there were a bazillion isps out there, and indeed British Telecom's own service was one of the most expensive. Even now we have DSL, you can buy it from any one of a dozen or more providers (and again, BT's openworld service is more expensive than some)

    It just find it hard to beleive that the US telecom companies are in a snit about it.

    --
    And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbour Isaiah 3:5
    1. Re:Too funny by Secrity · · Score: 1

      The local telcos are having a difficult time adjusting to the fact that people are no longer required to subscribe to their service. For about the past 40 years or so almost every American home has had at least one telephone line provided by the local telco. It used to be that commercial subscribers and Long Distance subsidised residential service. Telcos and their customers had to adjust to residential telephone service becoming a major income producer for the telcos when the Bell System was broke up on Jan 1, 1984. In the mid 1980's local service became more expensive to consumers and long distance charges went down. Now, because of a major shift in technology, telcos are starting to notice larger numbers of residential and even commercial customers dropping wired telephone service. The telcos are in a snit because they no longer have an effective telephone service monopoly and they are now in heavy competition with wireless telephones and VoIP. In most areas the local telcos do provide wireless service but they have to compete tooth and nail with other wireless carriers. When telcos begin to offer VoIP they will find several low cost competitors. In most areas the telcos don't have a monopoly for broadband services as their DSL has to compete with broadband cable and wireless providers. And it's not just wired telephones where telcos are losing revenue, income from Yellow Pages advertising is also starting to decline because people are moving away from using dead tree phone books. I suspect that barring major governmental interference, consumers will no longer have a local telco and a cable provider; they will two competing broadband carriers. Many cable companies already have fiber to the pedestal and provide VoIP telephone service, at least one telco is starting to install fiber to the pedestal. Many cable companies now provide all of the services that the telco can provide with cable to the pedestal, PLUS the the cable companies also provide cable TV.

  48. Re:hmm by UberGeeb · · Score: 1

    Wow, that's an amazing interpretation of what he said. I read "We" as "My household", not "Everybody in the freaking world".

  49. Re:hmm by justforaday · · Score: 1

    Looks like somebody needs to take some reading comprehension classes...

    --
    I'll turn into a supernova and burn up everything. Well I'll turn into a black little hole and you'll turn into string.
  50. What is the meaning of this regulating? by PhYrE2k2 · · Score: 1

    Lets think about this. Company runs millions of dollars in wire all over the city and into your home. Why is the Internet a regulated service? Why should they provide one service without the other? They say it's 'fairness to other phone providers', but what about fairness to other ISPs as well? Why is one service regulated and the other not? Is it just for legacy reasons?

    How does the consumer benefit from this? I've done this before as a temporary measure, and paid an extra $10USD/mo for a 'line fee'. But when you can get BASIC service on that line for $20USD, why are we bothering (sans caller-ID, call waiting, long distance plans, and maybe even touch-tone)? What gain is there for a consumer on the other end. You're letting them get their phone elsewhere, but it's obvious that big bell will have the best phone service.

    Just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Seems to be artificially controlling a market that doesn't need controlling.

    -M

    --

    when you see the word 'Linux', drink!
    1. Re:What is the meaning of this regulating? by otis+wildflower · · Score: 1

      Lets think about this. Company runs millions of dollars in wire all over the city and into your home.

      Whose property are they running wire over/under/thru? If it's public property, there's a balance between bandwidth and safety/sightliness. That is to say, there's a safe and aesthetic maximum to the number of lines or strands on utility poles. Who gets access to build on that public property? That, in theory, should come down to who will provide the public with the best service for the lowest price. Of course, with many localities, it's who's banging the mayor's ugly daughter or paying his country club fees.

    2. Re:What is the meaning of this regulating? by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      Better only one set of wires get run, and then everyone shares them equally under fair regulations. But the corporate monolights that the baby bells have become and/or been taken over by are greedy, and dont like to share.

  51. Re:Since this is obviously a common misperception. by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

    Few folks have the equipment and desire to set up local 2-day backup power for their VOIP setups: at the building level, it's usually much cheaper and safer to keep a pair of analog phone lines for emergencies, and rely on the Telco backup power systems (which tend to be massively over-supplied, for lots of very good reasons).

  52. Cable and VOIP cheaper than Dial Up and POTS by microbrewer · · Score: 1

    I live in Rural Vermont and even though I live near the popular Stratton Mountain Ski resort I cant get Verizon DSL and its well known in the area that its because of Vermonts low population density.So I reaserched my options when switching over to cable and VOIP to convince the Mrs it was worth swiching .

    I changed to Adelphia cable and thier cheapest plan is $29.00 per month unbundled plan @ 256kbps up and down and you can get Vonage for $14.95 per month .So what I was paying for unlimited local phone service in the area costs the same as the $45 minimum phone bill.On top of that you still have to pay dial up acess $15 so $60 for dial up and telephone or $45 for VOIP and Cable thats a

    A company that I do some consulting for now pays for a nice fat residential pipe so I dont have to worry about the cable bill anymore and pay $24.95 for Vonage :) .

  53. Re:hmm by slimak · · Score: 1

    and I read it as the royal We

  54. In Korea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Only old women pay about 20 EUR / month for 1Mb/512Kb.

  55. Re:Since this is obviously a common misperception. by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

    5ESS switches actually achieve six nines reliability

    It's great that Lucent can offer such impressive availability numbers, but it's too bad that you'd never know it from dealing with the phone company itself. Those six nines don't do you any good when, for instance, the idiots swap your pairs because they don't verify the address of a new customer that carelessly gives them *your* address, and you don't find out about it until a week later and every single person that's tried to call you in the meantime has been told your number is disconnected.

    /got Vonage, and BellSouth can kiss my ass for a variety of reasons

    --
    Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
  56. The politics behind this. by btarval · · Score: 1
    "This might be beneficial to the consumer! Has it come to this, that the FCC is floundering so badly as to do something that might actually be good for the consumer?"

    No kidding. At first, I was going to write this effort off after reading the Slashdot summary. The FCC has done everything in their power to pay back all of the campaign contributions made by the Phone companies, at the expense of the consumer.

    The reason why these changes are being proposed is that the Justice department "had some concerns" about the monopoly effects of these proposed mergers. Ahem. This is the same Justice department which deliberately let Microsoft off the hook with its monopoly. So pardon my extreme doubt that anything would happen here to benefit the consumer.

    So at first glance, it would seem that this is all fluff, and the Bush administration would be able to hand the TelCo's a major deal.

    But, from the fine article:

    "The FCC's two Democrats -- Michael Copps and Jonathan Adelstein -- may extract significant concessions in approving the deals since Mr. Martin needs at least one of them to vote in favor."

    This is due to a vacany on the board. Plus, one of the current Republicans on the board is leaving at the end of the year; so there's a big impetus to get this wrapped up by December.

    Also, the push for this isn't coming out of concern for the consumer; but by lobbying from other big companies, like Quest.

    So maybe there's a chance we'll see this unbundling. I'll believe it when I see it. But if it happened, it might actually create much more competition in certain areas, and speed the adoption of VOIP.

    --
    The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Peter Drucker.
  57. Correction by beakburke · · Score: 1
    The characterization of the telco system as being "built with tax dollars and then handed over to the telcos for maintenence" is just plain wrong.

    What is true is that local phone services were given power by local and state governments(right-of-way and monopoly status) in return for universal service requirements and the right to regulate the prices charged. In a separate initiative, areas that were simply uneconomical to wire for phone service (farms basically, on which only a small part of the population lives) at normal prices had their construction subsidized by federal funding. The federal spending certainly was a subsidy, but it's no where near the level you assert.

    --
    ----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
    1. Re:Correction by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 1

      No, I think you're wrong. The AT&T was treated like a utility; meaning they operated on a "Cost Plus" basis. The infrastructure was all Tax dollars. Local phone service was used to subsidize the Yellow Pages to keep out competition.

      The prices were regulated, but having to pay about $50 per month per household to just connect to this network for eternity is not much regulation.

      What will we see when WiMax is able to create huge networks? Could it be possible to create an independent switching network?

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
    2. Re:Correction by beakburke · · Score: 1
      Indeed, AT&T was treated like a utility and was a monopoly, that doesn't mean that the infrastructure was paid for by the government however, which was the point of contention. At that point in time, the telephoone network probably would have been a natural monopoly, which is why the government stepped in to provide some regulation of the price.

      I agree that it will be interesting to see how Wi-Max handles this challenge, but I imagine that it will force telecom carriers to more broadly examine the current peering and exchange agreements.

      --
      ----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
  58. FCC pushing for DSL unbundling by mtibbitts · · Score: 1

    Unbundling would be the first step. The next I would like to see the FCC push for would be true competitive DSL reselling. Right now, people reselling DSL have to be looking at the approach the FCC took with the CLEC industry. After several years of more or less real competition the FCC cut the legs out from underneath the industry claiming that real competition is provided by cellular and voip (ha!) and that the UNE-P pricing structure was antiquated. Instantly, the CLEC industry imploded, local competition vanished and prices have gone up. Here's to hoping that the FCC doesn't Indian-give unbundling to the consumer only to see it created in words but not effect. Martin Tibbitts

  59. frosty pineapple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    not even close to first. hehe!!

  60. Re:hmm by Widowwolf · · Score: 1

    this right here is exactly my point..you get your dsl + a phone line for about the same damn price you only get hi speed cable line...It is called sacrificing profit off one thing but gaining it back on another..just like the games industry...

    --
    ~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
  61. Allow my two cents. by Khyber · · Score: 1

    For starters, the Bells do not own the copper. Our tax dollars paid for the infrastructure, and the government only gave them maintenance control over the lines. The people own the copper, not the Bells.

    With that being said, The service is not necessarily shoved down the same two wires. Ever wonder why phone jacks have four wires instead of two nowdays, and that two of those four are (usually) never hooked up?

    Our DSL runs thru the outer pair of copper wires in our phone line, and the phone runs off the center two. No need for silly filters.

    I'm straying. We own the copper. We allowed the government to give control of what we paid for to another company, and now they're charging us out the yin-yang for something they would not have without our tax dollars.

    I'd be pretty ready to petition the government to completely take the control of the lines away from the companies, and give control back to the people instead. Sadly, the only waywe'll be able to do this is by having more money than the telco... I don't think even Bill Gates has that much.

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    1. Re:Allow my two cents. by bofkentucky · · Score: 2, Informative

      You are crazy, AT&T (and GTE and all the mom and pop phone companies in the rural areas) did the inital buildout of their copper and retain ownership of that plant. They do pay franchise fees and taxes for use of public right-of-ways, but the copper plant (and switches etc) are all owned by the local ILEC.

      --
      09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
    2. Re:Allow my two cents. by bommai · · Score: 1

      The four wires are for upto 2 phone lines. This has nothing to do with DSL/Phone. DSL and Phone traffic are carried on the same pair, just on different frequencies. In fact, new houses have phone lines with 3 or even four pairs of wires. For upto four phone lines.

    3. Re:Allow my two cents. by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Depends on where you live.

      We have a business line for calls/faxes, then we've got a dedicated naked DSL line on the outer pair.

      It's all how the company has it set up and in how up-to-date the infrastructure in your neighborhood really is. And, to some point, how you want it.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  62. If ever a monopoly there was . . . by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1
    They raise your rates 3 months in a row? And still would try to collect the "disconnect fee"? Amazing, the entitlements they feel they are due.

    In some parts of my town, we have competing phone/cable/internet providers. It's eye opening how much better phone and cable rates folks there get even if they stick with the old monopoly. It'll probably be while before they come to my neighborhood. Since the new guys are not a monopoly, they get to do some "cherry picking" when choosing where to offer service.

    --
    I am not a crackpot.
    1. Re:If ever a monopoly there was . . . by macdaddy · · Score: 1

      I never use long-distance on my landline, ever. I've had DSL for just over a year now and my bill has never been the same twice. Honestly it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that they're making "mistakes" on a broader level and never correct those mistakes unless caught with their hand in the cookie jar, and only then by that one customer. That would not surprise me in the least. Credit card companies have done this for years.

  63. You Can Already Do This by lcreech · · Score: 1

    It's called a Dry DSL. Available from several providers and does not require phone service. Lighting Bolt Technologies is one such provider, they act as a middleman between SBC, Verizon.... and you. The FCC ruling would cut out the middleman, but not neccessarily lower the cost of it.

  64. Re:Since this is obviously a common misperception. by Secrity · · Score: 1

    Do you honestly think it takes MORE power to send a photon down fiber than it does to send an electron down copper? Seriously. What the #$#ck do you people think powers POTS?!?! AIR?!?

    Bzzzzzzt

    I am so sorry, the correct answer was Telephone Central Office Power, which doesn't power the cable company's line equipment nor does it power people's home networks.

    Thank you for playing, we have some lovely parting gifts for you...

  65. The word of the day is FIBER! by achurch · · Score: 1

    Granted, I'm living in Tokyo where the population density is about 137 people per square foot, but it can't be that hard to string optical fiber alongside the phone lines . . .

  66. Corporate welfare by Legion303 · · Score: 1

    "Patrick Mahoney, an analyst at Yankee Group, said that traditional phone lines are cash cows, so allowing customers to buy Internet access without traditional phone service would be costly to telecom providers."

    Cry me a fucking river, ILECs. Since this is supposedly a capitalist society, why don't you get off your lazy asses and provide some value and customer satisfaction to get your business instead of whining about all the people who want to desert your broken ship?

  67. "How the internet killed the phone business" by fiannaFailMan · · Score: 2, Informative
    traditional phone lines are cash cows, so allowing customers to buy Internet access without traditional phone service would be costly to telecom providers
    The Economist has a good article about this very issue this week. From the leader:
    THE term "disruptive technology" is popular, but is widely misused. It refers not simply to a clever new technology, but to one that undermines an existing technology--and which therefore makes life very difficult for the many businesses which depend on the existing way of doing things. Twenty years ago, the personal computer was a classic example. It swept aside an older mainframe-based style of computing, and eventually brought IBM, one of the world's mightiest firms at the time, to its knees. This week has been a coming-out party of sorts for another disruptive technology, "voice over internet protocol" (VOIP), which promises to be even more disruptive, and of even greater benefit to consumers, than personal computers

    From the article itself:

    "Much more so than fixed-line operators, mobile operators would have to cannibalise their current business in order to generate new revenues from VOIP. Ironically, this means that BT, once regarded as a dinosaur-like incumbent, is now being held up as a shining example of an operator that is embracing the future, while Vodafone, whose pure-mobile strategy once seemed visionary, now stands accused of being on the wrong side of history. At the end of the day, there is no getting around the reality, as Skype's Mr Zennstrom says, that "something that is a great business model for us is probably a terrible business model for them.""

    Full article, subscribers only I'm afraid! :(
    --
    Drill baby drill - on Mars
  68. CavTel by icrooks · · Score: 1


    CavTel is best deal going, if available in your local CO.

    I love it. $25 for phone and $25 for DSL. Yes you must get phone service to get DSL.

  69. Naked DSL business models by markholmberg · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am doing research on the subject of local loop unbundling and I think you are right, the business models are pretty peculiar.

    There are differences in US vs. Europe in how this is done, but the basics are pretty similar.

    Two most common ways to unbundle a local loop are to force the incumbent to offer bitstream access or local loop for the entrant. The price is calculated for the access are calculated by the regulator. Two common pricing methods are engineering models / long run incremental cost and cost plus pricing. In the engineering model, the regulator tries to calculate what it would cost to set up a similar service now and gives it a payback time of say 20 years. In the cost plus pricing, the incumbent will give information about its marginal costs to the regulator who will add a premium on top if this to account for future investment costs.

    Long story short, the access price set by the regulator does not equal the true price and there is possibility for arbitrage.

    Of course, in the US, the FCC has changed its mind on the subject of should LLU be done at least 4 times.

    So, there was some background as I see it. However, I have just started researching this subject so I still might have some stuff mixed up.

  70. Re:how does it work down there in the U.S. ? by Thu25245 · · Score: 1

    In most of the U.S., there are two ways to broadband: The Cable Monopoly, and the Bell Phone Company Monopoly. (Which may actually be an independent, non-Bell company in some areas)

    In some rural areas, the Bell Phone Company doesn't even offer DSL, because it figures the few, far-between customers wouldn't offer enough return on investment to extend the DSL loops.

    In some densely populated areas, the Bell Phone Company has competition from Competitive DSL companies like Covad and Speakeasy. They provide service using the Phone Company's copper lines to your house, but connect to their own network on the other end.

    So depending on where you live, you might have
    - Cable only
    - Cable or Bell DSL
    - Cable or several DSL providers

    The Bell Phone Company often requires you to maintain a landline telephone connection, whether you use it or not, if you want a DSL connection. That's what TFA is about.

    With cable, they will usually sell you just broadband if that's what you want. It might not be worth it, though. my cable company charges $10 for "basic" TV (around 12 channels) and $40 for broadband-with-existing-TV. Or you could pay $60 for broadband-only service.

  71. I can just see what the telcos will do with this.. by Thu25245 · · Score: 1

    Acme Bell is pleased to announce our new "naked" DSL product! for the first time, you can subscribe to high-speed DSL without the need for a landline!

    Acme DSL-only Service: $5,999,999,999/Month*
    * Additional taxes and fees may apply. Call for details
    Or, SAVE MONEY with one of our exciting Packages!

    DSL+Landline: $69/Month
    DSL+Landline+Long DIstance: $89/Month

  72. Here's how it goes by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    There are three components to DSL which I'll call physical, transport and access (my terms I made up). The physical component is the actual copper wire over which your signal travels. It can and often does also have voice on it. Transport is the layer-2 DSL stuff, the actual signaling that makes it DSL. Access is where that gets routed to another format and on to the Internet.

    So, a company can provide anything from 1 to all 3 of those. The phone company always provides the physical wire. They own it, there's no one else laying it, done deal. However they often have people who compete on the access level. These are companies like Covad and Newedge. They lease space in the telco's data centres and equipment bozes and install their own DSLAMS. They are then the one who provides you DSL, and who controls the other end (DSL is point-to-point basically).

    Now the company that provides you transport can, but not not have to, provide you access. If not, they send the DSL signal over to another company, who then has routers connected to other providers to get you on the Internet.

    So here's some possible setups where I live:

    DSL through Qwest (the local phone company):
    Physical: Qwest
    Transport: Qwest
    Access: Qwest

    DSL through a local ISP that uses Qwest:
    Physical: Qwest
    Transport: Qwest
    Access: Local ISP

    DSL through Covad:
    Physical: Qwest
    Transport: Covad
    Access: Covad

    DSL through Speakeasy.net:
    Physical: Qwest
    Transport: Covad
    Access: Speakeasy