Torvalds Gets Tough on Kernel Contributors

ChocLinux writes "Linus Torvalds is cracking down on developers that add last-minute changes to the kernel during the two-week merge window. He says: 'If people miss the merge window or start abusing it with hurried last-minute things that just cause problems for -rc1, I'll just refuse to merge, and laugh in their faces derisively when they whine plaintively at me, and tell them there's going to be a new opening soon enough.'"

Comments

Good

[bblazer]

While I think that his language is a bit inflammatory, I think that it is something that needs to be done. All the last minute changes must make things very difficult to manage.

Re:Good

[garcia]

While I think that his language is a bit inflammatory, I think that it is something that needs to be done.

Well, I guess he can't win huh? It's difficult being in his position. He wants the work to get done and he wants to make people happy. I guess him saying, "People always complain that I'm being too soft. Not so this time," is the result of all the grief he puts up with.

Just let it go as long as the patches still come in ;)

Re:Good

[external400kdiskette]

Well inflammatory is right but you have to expect that this would piss anyone off quite a lot if it's such a recurring theme and people have no intention to change their attitude some action had to be taken.

Re:Good

[planetoid]

It's not really inflammatory if you can't help imagining the speaker saying it in a high-pitched, nasal voice.

Re:Good

[slavemowgli]

It sure makes you wonder what the two-week window is actually good for, though. I mean... the whole thing was done in order to make sure that there'd be a time for submitting new stuff, and a time for shaking out bugs, and so that people would be able to tell the two apart.

So, why the fuss about last-minute merges now? If they're still in the two-week window, they should be fine; if they're not, well, then they're too late and won't get merged, but that was already clear anyway. And stuff that's not up to par quality-wise yet will (should) not be merged at all, anyway - it's not as if the code quality requirements were lowered for the two-week merge window.

What Linus seems to be doing is to effectively reduce the two-week window to a "something-less-than-two-weeks" window where noone knows exactly how much the difference is, but it does not get rid of the underlying problem: there still is a deadline, and people will still submit lots of stuff just before the deadline's there. It doesn't matter whether it's two weeks or 13 days or whatever.

The whole *point* of the "merge for two weeks, then stop merging and focus on bug fixes" was to be able live with this, so to speak. If you can't fight them, make them join you; if you can't prevent people from submitting stuff in the last minute, make sure that there's enough time *after* the last minute so that last-minute merges won't hurt you. If Linus finds it necessary to crack down on last-minute merges now - which, as I said above, is not really possible in practice (the only way to do it would be to not merge anything at all anymore, but that's obviously not a practical solution) - because there are too many, that just shows that patch pressure is too high already; further increasing it won't help. Rather, you have to look at *why* patch pressure is so high, and do something about that. For example, why not extend the two-week window to three or four weeks? It might mean that new kernel versions appear less often, but in these days of git and distributed development where tree changes are so easy to push/pull and where every distributor uses their own, heavily-patched version of the kernel, anyway, why does it matter so much? Linus has always taken a stance that quality is more important than meeting arbitrary deadlines, I think.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what he actually wanted to say - I did RTFA, but zdnet is not exactly what I'd call a high-quality source for kernel development news. Caveat lector...

Re:Good

[ozmanjusri]

but why does he have to be a little bitch about it?

Linus frequently expresses himself using a type of wry humour which is quite alien to US audiences. It's not bitchy, it just doesn't translate well.

Re:Good

[Aadain2001]

There is a BIG difference between bug fixes and merges, and adding new features. I haven't RTFA, but based on the summary it seems like Linus wants to keep those two weeks dedicated to fixing bugs, merging changes, etc, not adding in new features that were not even coded until that two week window. That is what all the weeks leading up to the merge window is for. Once those two weeks hit, the focus should be 100% on making sure everything works, works together, and is stable. I say, good for Linus! Sometimes the only way to make people listen is to be tough with them.

Re:Good

[mwood]

That's just Linus. I'd take it as a means of emphasis, not a personal attack.

Besides, if I ignore The Rules I *deserve* to be laughed at.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, if I had written software that then got taken by major coporations to make a fortune and I never saw a dime, I'd be pretty dedicated to the sauce too.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

It sure makes you wonder what the two-week window is actually good for, though. I mean... the whole thing was done in order to make sure that there'd be a time for submitting new stuff, and a time for shaking out bugs, and so that people would be able to tell the two apart.


RTFA or not, you've apparently never been part of a large, ongoing software project that was any good. You DO NOT submit "new stuff" during the merge window! That's what the previous 50 weeks in the year were for.

Two weeks is a manageably aggressive timeframe during which to reconcile compatibility issues across a moderately large codebase. The acceptance of entirely new code during this window potentially starts the reconciliation process all over again at square one. Usually it would be less than that, but if you accept one new submission, you almost have to accept them all. So it could still become a never-ending process, indistinguishable from the preceeding development cycle which the merge window is supposed to define.

Therefore, if you're going to have a cutoff date at all, you've really got to be strict about it or the merge becomes a nightmare.

If you really do have something new and important which absolutely does need to get into the release, then the cutoff date would have been selected to accomodate your new code.

It's not as if there's no dialogue...

Re:Good

[Xyrus]

While true, his latest comments remind me more of the Evil Emperor from Star Wars rather than the benevolent dictator some like to portray him as.

Seriously, I think he could be a little more cordial, even in jest.

~X~

Re:Good

[fataugie]

HIs language is commensurate with the amount of pissing and moaning that goes on.

When I worked as a cook, we were responsible for cleaning the kitchen during the shift (the place never closed). We'd be carrying buckets of hot grease or water and people would be drawn to walking in front of you it seemed. So, we took up yelling a warning when we were about to carry out hot stuff:

"HOT STUFF...MAKE WAY OR I'LL BURN YOU AND LAUGH"

It worked perfectly. And for those who didn't beleive, they found out the hard way.

Re:Good

[rhizome]

when these types of quotes get posted on sites like ZDNet, this only contributes to the fact that people think Linux is poorly maintained and has a low software quality...

Yeah, he should act more like Steve Ballmer.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

but why does he have to be a little bitch about it?

I find that people who are constantly late, or underestimate the time something takes to do something right, never quite understand the cost of doing things late or the last minute. They certainly don't understand (or care) how it effects others.

If it were me, I'd be a big bitch about it. But then again, nobody likes me - it's a trade off.

Re:Good

[iabervon]

In general, the maintainers want to avoid having to deal with a lot of stuff in a short time period, which means encouraging people to submit things at different times or have people not expecting a quick response. Linus is also partially making the point that if some feature gets excluded from a cycle, 6 weeks just isn't all that long to wait for it to get in the next cycle.

The first thing that came up is that Andrew Morton doesn't know which of the things in the testing tree are going in this cycle, because people haven't said anything in the middle of the window. So the first problem would be solved if everybody said at the beginning of the window that they're intending to submit something, but not quite yet.

The real issue, it turns out, is that James Bottomley (the SCSI maintainer) is in an untenable position. He's supposed to get patches from developers, integrate them, and submit them to Linus. But the developers waited for 2.6.14 to come out before they rebased their patches on it, and then took most of the window rebasing the patches, leaving James not enough time to determine for sure if all of these patches actually work correctly together before the window closes.

Furthermore, Linus would like to get infrastructure changes in before driver changes, so that it's easier to debug. It's hard to figure out what's wrong if you get both an infrastructure change that shouldn't affect anything in the driver, but might due to a bug and a driver change that should affect the driver behavior. It's a lot nicer if you can say whether the infrastructure change had any effect at all on what the driver does, and know right away which part to debug. But that depends on getting things included in a particular order.

I suspect that part of the problem is that the new release cycle is new, and contributors are not yet convinced that they can rebase their patches against 2.6.14-rc3 and have them apply cleanly to 2.6.14, and it will not be such an issue once people have gotten used to it.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

>>>Linus frequently expresses himself using a type of wry humour which is quite alien to US audiences. It's not bitchy, it just doesn't translate well.

remember this one???? hehehe ok, now someone thats not ac can post the same reference and take credit for the reference as usual....

Linux 2.0.36 patch - patch-2.0.36.gz (15-Nov-98)

          From: Linus Torvalds
          Subject: Linux-2.0.36..

          Is out there.

          I won't claim any false credit for this: all the 2.0.x work was
          done by Alan Cox as the maintainer, and the 2.0.36 that is out
          there is exactly the same as Alan's "pre-22" version that he
          asked people to check out. He just asked me to "sprinkle some
          holy penguin-pee on it" to bless it and make it official. This I
          have done (*).

          2.0.36 is a lot of updates, mostly to various drivers. ISDN,
          various SCSI drivers and network cards have been updated quite
          heavily. ISDN to the degree that you need to make sure you have
          the most recent tools in order to play well with it.

          Have fun,

                      Linus

          (*) This, btw, is not something I would suggest you do in your
          living room. Getting a penguin to pee on demand is _messy_. We're
          talking yellow spots on the walls, on the ceiling, yea verily
          even behind the fridge.

          However. I would also advice against doing this outside - it may
          be a lot easier to clean up, but you're likely to get reported
          and arrested for public lewdness. Never mind that you had a
          perfectly good explanation for it all.

          Here are the Release Notes from Alan Cox (who put together the 2.0.36
release for Linus):

Re:Good

[flibuste]

Yes, but you cannot laugh in the face of people who voluntarily help for absolutely no money.

There is a line between managing someone and mocking him. Roughly 100% of the time, mockery leads to nothing productive. And mocking your people is not being "tougher", it's being an incompetent manager.

Re:Good

[4of12]

It's difficult being in his position.

This announcement is good management practice though.

The public declaration of harsh measures means people won't be so hurt by rejection of their MyLifesBlood patches to the kernel - it's not personal anymore, just policy:)

Much of Linux success can be attributed to Linus ability to balance personalities and technologies. And, believe me, there are some Piece of Work personalities that happen to be tied together in single person packages with rare intellects and feverish workaholicism. Many technical managers are doing great if they can just not too badly piss off the prima donnas responsible for the great ideas and the hard work.

Re:Good

[HiThere]

I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head. Linus is so often calm and placid, that I think this counts as "fair warning", and was intentionally constructed to get people's attention. It seems to have worked, for that end, anyway. Now people don't have much grounds for complaint if their non-essential changes during the two-week freezing get rejected.

(Of course, they will complain anyway, people being what they are, but their audience will know that they were warned ahead of time.)

Re:Good

[jdavidb]

when these types of quotes get posted on sites like ZDNet, this only contributes to the fact that people think Linux is poorly maintained and has a low software quality

That's an odd thought; it contributed to my impression that Linux is being well-maintained, since the position Linus is taking is the position that must be taken in order to maintain software well.

Re:Good

[SilverspurG]

There's a big difference between the behavior of an alpha male in the wilderness (where inflicting death is an acceptable form of asserting dominance) and the behavior of an alpha male in human society governed by etiquette.

Linus has learned this difference. Apparently you haven't.

A true alpha male would assert dominance in every way and absorb the impact

That's not the way it works in the business world. Every alpha male that has acted the way you suggest in the business world eventually ends up with their balls stuffed in their mouth. Either you learn when to hold your tongue, learn when to act civil, and learn when and where it's acceptable to overtly assert dominance, or you learn what your nuts taste like.

Re:Good

[Master of Transhuman]

"We" invented the Simpsons?

Who is "we"? George Bush?

Take your patriotic pompous tool ass back to the toilet and dump your shit where it belongs.

The poster was quite correct - most Americans have the sense of humor of a Puritan. Otherwise we wouldn't be discussing Linus's comments at all.

Re:Good

[Master of Transhuman]

And if you weren't black, 6'3" and 230 lbs, you'd be a punk, right?

I saw plenty of your fellows in the Federal prison system. When a C.O. told them what to do, they shut up.

I'm 5'8", weigh 200 pounds, am out of shape, wear glasses, and I'd still tell you to fuck yourself in the ass. In prison, I'd get my ass kicked, so I shut up. Out here, after you kick my ass, I'll show up at your house - six months later -with a .45 after dark and leave you bleeding on the carpet - and the rest of the world will wonder how an asshole like you lasted that long.

Alpha males, my ass. An alpha male is a cheap punk who only survives because the rest of the world are beta followers. But he gets his sooner or later because the bottom line of primate behavior is that NOBODY is allowed to be above anybody else for long.

Re:Good

[__aaclcg7560]

Yeah, he should act more like Steve Ballmer.

One enfant terrible is enough for the entire software industry.

Re:Good

[SilverspurG]

You have no examples as to "how it works in the business world"

You have no idea.

I have cited a couple of high profile alpha males who are highly successful in the business world because they walk their talk

Michael Jordan's wife has him by the nuts. TO just got his ass spanked. Dennis Rodman does what? Manage street corners these days? Would you care to cite any examples of alpha males who were allowed to keep shooting their mouths off past the point when their immediate usefulness ended?

No.

Re:Good

[Aadain2001]

I can!

George W. Bush
Donald Trump
Bill Gates
Steve Jobs


These are a few people who are true "alpha" males and are very successful in their respective fields. Of course, they aren't always the most loved people, but they do a hell of a job at leading.

Re:Good

[SilverspurG]

These are a few people who are true "alpha" males and are very successful in their respective fields

Hardly.

George Bush: He's a beta male propped up by a wealthy family and lots of political connections.
Donald Trump: Even Donald Trump, when dealing with investors, know when to keep his mouth shut.
Bill Gates: An alpha male? What are you shooting for, Funny?
Steve Jobs: Steve Jobs has figured out how to stare everyone else down. He doesn't need to jump in conflict, as the arguing party seems to think is required for conflict.

Being an alpha male requires playing the card game. It does not require trash talk on every hand.

Re:Good

[mikefe]

I'm 5'8", weigh 200 pounds

Well I'm 5'10 and 270 pounds and I can just "accidentally" trip and fall on you and be done with it. No need for a gun.

Re:Good

[ozmanjusri]

Since my comment was an observation, not a criticism, methinks the whiny AC doth protest too much...

Re:Good

[Master of Transhuman]

Three more /. punks weigh in...

Re:Good

[Phreakiture]

it just doesn't translate well.

Nonsense it doesn't translate well. You just have to understand that Linus has a wry sense of humour and it all just falls into place.

As the heading on /. sometimes says.... It's funny. Laugh.

Re:Good

[ccp]

While I think that his language is a bit inflammatory

Man, here's a quarter, go buy some sense of humor. ;>)

Cheers,

Re:Good

[DocFloyd]

Personally, I find it a little refreshing. It's direct and to the point. No beating around the bush and "suggesting" a different behavior.

Re:Good

[sudog]

You==stupid.

Re:Good

[flibuste]

Your variable naming looks inconsistent (capital, no capital?), and I'd add spaces around the equal operator for better readability. Something like..

var Idiot idiot != alwaysTheOneYouThinkOf();

Re:Good

[Hognoxious]

I'll show up at your house - six months later -with a .45[1] after dark and leave you bleeding on the carpet

I'm about the same size as you. Of course, if I had a gun, I could pwn someone much larger. If someone smaller than me had a gun, he (or indeed she) could pwn me.

The mere fact that you fantasize about having a gun and raping[2] people you've never met just proves what an inadequate, pathetic nonce you are.

[1] Are you allowed to own a firearm - what with you being a criminal shitbag and a psychopathic, delusional lunatic etc?
[2] I know you do, I've met your type before. But here's a hint, I could go home at night.

Re:Good

[Master of Transhuman]

It's not the gun, moron, it's the balls to use it and the smarts to use it properly.

As for whether it's factually legal for me to own one, no, it isn't. The only issue in my mind is whether I could ever be CONNECTED to actually possessing one again. Anything else is irrelevant.

As for pathetic nonces, nigger bitches who boast about how big they are are a dime a dozen in the joint. And when a couple white guys roll in on them with lead pipes or shanks, it really doesn't matter how big they are - they're going out with blood on their skulls.

I have no idea what you're talking about with regard to raping anybody. The morons above were babbling about jailhouse sex, not me.

Monkeys who have to flex their muscles to threaten someone don't impress me - and people who are impressed by those monkeys don't impress me either. That was my point, which you evidently didn't comprehend.

Also said...

[Grendel Drago]

Torvalds later added, "I am legion. All shall kiss my smoldering hoof."

Re:Also said...

[OneSmartFellow]

Promethea: Volume 1 "Bringing Down The Temple", Sept 2000 by Alan Moore

Re:Also said...

[ScrewMaster]

"All your patch are belong to me."

Get Tough!

[vaderhelmet]

This sort of thing happens in the corporate environment (at least where stability is valued over new features). I don't see why we shouldn't have some of the same process in OSS. I think this is a bold, yet helpful move by Linus and I congratulate him on taking a stand!

Re:Get Tough!

[frostfreek]

And, does your manager laugh in your face, derisively? Talk about a great way to motivate.
Just who does he think he is, Bill Gates or something?

Re:Get Tough!

[IANAAC]

And, does your manager laugh in your face, derisively?

You must not be in corporate America. Bosses laugh at you derisively all the time.

Thank god I have the type of boss that, while practicing the above-mentioned behaviour, can take it as well as give it.

Re:Get Tough!

[scsirob]

So, can you name *one* company that will favor stability over time-to-market??

Re:Get Tough!

[the_xaqster]

Depends on how often I whine plaintively at him.....

Re:Get Tough!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's much worse when girls do that to you.

Re:Get Tough!

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, SBC? I'm a consultant there.

It's called "sustaining" instead of "enhancing" the software. If you mix up which is which, they yell at you bloody murder.

Most companys have things called "schedules", "budgets", and "project scope", if you exceed one or more of those, they go "apeshit" and you get "fired".

Not everyone is making new software, in fact most companies are now trying to dig themselves out of the hole they dug in the late 90's with their "time to market is king" strategy.

The project I'm doing now is replacing seven megs of C++ spaghetti code with a java implementation that isn't even a thousand lines of code. I'm not even using any java classes outside of java.net, java.util, and java.lang. One of the SBC guys tried to add an "enhancement" by allowing more than one phone number to be entered (the back end system supported it), and he was fired.

I totally see where linux is coming from. If people aren't even in Unit Testing for their stuff at this point, there's no point in even trying to merge.

Obligatory Futurama

[Anonymous Coward]

Prof. Farnsworth: This will not stand! I'll take you on, you air balling bozos!
Bubblegum: You old man? Ha! Sweet Clive, laugh derisively at him.
Sweet Clive: Ahaha, ahaha, aahahaha.

Whaaa?!?

[Moby Cock]

Linus has a new title:

Not-So-Benevolent (But Exceedingly Pragmatic) Dictator for Life?

Re:Whaaa?!?

[dfn5]

Linus has a new title:

Not-So-Benevolent (But Exceedingly Pragmatic) Dictator for Life?

I, for one, welcome our new Linux Kernel Overlord.

Re:Whaaa?!?

[gstoddart]

Not-So-Benevolent (But Exceedingly Pragmatic) Dictator for Life?

I, for one, welcome our new Linux Kernel Overlord.

But ... but ... he's the same old Linux Kernel Overlord ... just with a few new ass-whoopin' superpowers.

Re:Whaaa?!?

[AuMatar]

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss.

Re:Whaaa?!?

[$0.02]

So, that's what his middle name (Benedict) stands for.

Huh?

[poodlehat]

Could someone please explain that one to me?

Re:Huh?

[Curtman]

"Could someone please explain that one to me?"

It appears to be a reference to a really bad comic book.

Re:Huh?

[hackwrench]

"My name is legion for we are many" is a quote from the Bible Mark 5, vs. 9. and "smoldering hoof" is from one of the mythical forms of Satan and the notion that Hell is hot.

Enough time?

[NCraig]

From the article:

The kernel development team recently set a policy that new features must be added to the next version of the kernel during the two weeks after the release of the previous version.

I admittedly know nothing about the kernel development process, but two weeks sounds like too little time. Won't this stifle new features and improvements?

Re:Enough time?

[Anonymous Coward]

two weeks sounds like too little time

You don't have to make the code in two weeks, you just have to submit it within that time frame, or wait untill next if you are not ready yet. So you can for example start coding now, and post the code after 10 years, but inside the 2 week time frame (assuming this policy is still used then, and your code still works with the current kernel at that time).

Re:Enough time?

[mwood]

The best thing that could happen to mankind is the stifling of certain new features and improvements. My modal reaction to "upgrades" from certain other software suppliers is, "how do I disable that?"

Anyway if you miss the window for kernel J.K.L there's always J.K.L+1 coming along. Meanwhile people with a burning desire for your patch can get it from you. It's annoying, but the person you should be annoyed with lives in your mirror.

Re:Enough time?

[Jack Earl]

They will just get released in the next version.

Re:Enough time?

[thesandtiger]

It's annoying, but the person you should be annoyed with lives in your mirror.

THERE'S A PERSON LIVING IN MY MIRROR!?!?!

Oh, shit... call the police... call Homeland Security... there's a person living in my mirror! I'm looking right at her right now! She looks terrified!

In other news...

[Call Me Black Cloud]

Steve Ballmer referred to him as an "amateur" and offered to tutor him in the art of anger.

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is where the collaborative open-source model is doomed to fail vs the proprietary model: it is simply impossible to throw a chair on the Internet. With this handicap, Mr. Torvalds will never be able to match Mr. Ballmer's leadership abilities.

Re:In other news...

[MoonRug]

... and also offered to show how to show appreciation of all the kernel folks:

"DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS (gaaaasp) DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPers DEVell (gassssp) ... "

Re:In other news...

[ArsenneLupin]

Steve Ballmer referred to him as an "amateur" and offered to tutor him in the art of anger.

Indeed, being the chairman of a world-wide OS development team is not a trivial task!

Re:In other news...

[babyrat]

I threw a chair once - landed on a network cable, dragged the switch on the floor and we lost our internet connection for a while. So apparently you CAN throw a chair on the internet.

Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot....

[imsabbel]

So you are arguing that Linus shoudlt claim slashdot is all about making unqualified comments and circle jerking them up to +5 insightful,
by making a unqualified comment about linux kernel management and getting modded up for it...

Why not?

[IANAAC]

... he shouldn't complain about Slashdot ...

Why not? He was stating an opinion, nothing more.

Controlling a process and stating an opinion are two entirely different things.'

Much ado about nothing

[WindBourne]

This is simply a manager telling others off that they can not miss deadlines. It happens all the time in any business. Difference is, that Linux development is in the open.

Re:Much ado about nothing

[nine-times]

Difference is, that Linux development is in the open.

Which means, if you don't like it, make your own damn kernel!

Re:Much ado about nothing

[DavidpFitz]

This is simply a manager telling others off that they can not miss deadlines. It happens all the time in any business. Difference is, that Linux development is in the open.

Except of course, that it's not. Linus seems to be getting pissed off that people are getting their work in *just before* the deadline, not actually missing it. If your manager told you off for submitting your work shortly before your deadline, you'd be pretty pissed off about it.

If the 2 week window is too long, then shorten it. But don't bitch off about people who are playing by the rules.

Re:Much ado about nothing

[DustMagnet]

Except of course, that it's not. Linus seems to be getting pissed off that people are getting their work in *just before* the deadline, not actually missing it. If your manager told you off for submitting your work shortly before your deadline, you'd be pretty pissed off about it.

That's now how I read this: If people miss the merge window or start abusing it with hurried last-minute things that just cause problems for -rc1, I'll just refuse to merge

I read that as being upset about people missing the deadline or submitting crap right before the deadline because they aren't ready. I think a dope slap would be better for these people.

Re:Much ado about nothing

[syphax]

Telling people that they have to meet their deadlines does not make you an asshole. It's *how* you tell them that differentiates the assholes from the (rare) good managers.

the 'and laugh in their faces derisively' comment is just an indication that Linus thinks this is important. I don't know Linus, and I think I only know one person who ever might Linus, but I know from reading enough articles what his personality and sense of humor are like. Threatening to laugh derisively at someone is a little different from throwing a chair in anger...

Re:Much ado about nothing

[WindBourne]

but when a business does this, it's bad?

Excuse me, but who is saying that it is bad in business? I flat out said that it goes on all the time. When I worked on HP-UX, we had about 5 of us who did not check in our work continually. When merges occured, it caused issues and managers would get pissed. And yes, they would sound off just like Linus did. I never felt that it was "bad", as they were justified.

In fact, where do you see anybody saying that a business doing it is bad? Your statement has the same logic of "You still beating your wife?"

Re:Much ado about nothing

[HiThere]

It's a literary reference, that I can't quite pull out of my memory, because it's been slightly paraphrased. Perhaps it's a Monty Python reference?

Re:Much ado about nothing

[Zebidiah]

Monty Python and the Holy Grail perhaps.

Sir Galahad: Is there someone else up there we could talk to?

French Soldier: No, now go away before I taunt you a second time.

Re:Much ado about nothing

[HiThere]

No... but it might well be one of the exchanges with the french soldier. I sort of think it was "... [Go away??] or I shall ... in your general directions.", or something like that.

Re:Much ado about nothing

[Zebidiah]

All I can think of that might match that is:

"I fart in your general direction"

You call that tough?

[Qbertino]

He's merely doing his job as lead maintainer - which usually includes a little verbal dutch rub for the team once in a while.
Getting tough is more like "Do that once more and I'll have Don Papa and his mob minions knocking at your door with a fresh set of baseball clubs!" or something like that.

Re:You call that tough?

[LWATCDR]

"Do that once more and I'll have Don Papa and his mob minions knocking at your door with a fresh set of baseball clubs!"

What are baseball clubs?

Re:You call that tough?

[swv3752]

A basball bat used for breaking legs.

Re:You call that tough?

[LWATCDR]

Actually I have never heard of a Baseball bat being called a baseball club.
Grammar Nazi? Not on your life. I was more wondering if it was just an odd translation. Is this a common term?

Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot....

[Slashcrap]

If Linus talks down to other developers that contribute to Linux in such a primitive way, he shouldn't complain about Slashdot, as he did here: http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95. Quote:

        Gaah. I don't tend to bother about slashdot, because quite frankly, the whole _point_ of slashdot is to have this big public wanking session with people getting together and making their own "insightful" comment on any random topic, whether they know anything about it or not.

Congratulations! We have a winner! The 3rd Annual Slashdot unintentional irony award goes to titwurstman!

He beat all comers this year due to his use of a quote suggesting that people on Slashdot comment on things they know nothing about, to support his Slashdot comment on something he knows nothing about!

The Slashdot editors have now permanently closed the competition, as it is widely agreed that nobody will ever top this year's winner!

Re:Language?

[Turn-X Alphonse]

"If you want to put stuff in the kernel then do it when it's easiest for us to check it. If you refuse to cause problems and keep doing this then I'll tell you to piss off" would be a nicer translation.

Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot....

[nurhussein]

If Linus talks down to other developers that contribute to Linux in such a primitive way, he shouldn't complain about Slashdot, as he did here: http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95.

Well said, fellow slashdot user teewurstmann of id 755953! With that post, you certainly took Linus Torvalds to task for daring to belittle the collective intelligentsia that is SLASHDOT! As a mere senior kernel developer, founder of the Linux kernel project and leader of the mainline kernel development process certainly he needs to be shown his place by our community of insightful commentators. From mom's basement I stab at thee!

Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot....

[Qbertino]

Well isn't that cute. Nice try at a piece of Troll FUD.
And you "wisely" drop the following sentence from what your quoting.

Here's the quote in context:

>>>
Gaah. I don't tend to bother about slashdot, because quite frankly, the
whole _point_ of slashdot is to have this big public wanking session with
people getting together and making their own "insightful" comment on any
random topic, whether they know anything about it or not.

[ And don't get me wrong - I follow slashdot too, exactly because it's fun
    to see people argue. I'm not complaining ;]

And I don't tend to worry about the Inquirer and the Register, because
both of them are all about being rough and saying things in ways that
might not be acceptable in other places, and that's what makes them fun to
read. So when they then write something nasty about Linux (or me), hey, it
goes with the territory.

So much for Linus complaining about slashdot.
You trolling Sucker. :-)

Re:If my boss

[germ!nation]

"If my boss used this tone with me, I would quit the job."

If you were chucking code into a major public release candidate 2 weeks before launch, I'm sure your quitting window would be rather short as you would be fired before too long.

No one involved is a child; suck it up, do some push-ups if required, and make sure you do things right next time.

Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot....

[hylander_sb]

the quote continues:

[ And don't get me wrong - I follow slashdot too, exactly because it's fun
    to see people argue. I'm not complaining ;]

He says he's not complaining. Sounds like he's just making a characterization of how discussions go around here...not too far off the mark.

Re:If my boss

[Soruk]

But, if you were constantly submitting work late, holding up your colleagues or trying to do it in a rush so breaking something, then your boss would have every right to take this tone with you.

More like this?

[MECC]

Developer: Here's my patch. Sorry its late...
Linus: The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee....

Re:More like this?

[Anonymous Coward]

LINUS: We happy?

No answer from the transfixed Marcelo Tosatti.

LINUS: Marcelo!

Marcelo looks up at Linus.

LINUS: We happy?

Merging the patch.

MARCELO: We're happy.

Re:More like this?

[sasdrtx]

BANG!

Oh, I'm sorry... did I break your concentration?

Well Said!

[Lee_in_KC]

" If my boss used this tone with me, I would quit the job."

Spoken like a true college Sophomore.

Re:Well Said!

[Lee_in_KC]

Flamebait!! How redundant from a /. poster!

Have you considered that possibly I meant it as I said it? Do you know that "Sophomore" means "wise fool"? There's a reason. Next time I'll make my whole post in Latin so it sounds more cool.

I could have take a LOOOONG time to explain that anyone that could possibly say they would quit a job if they got yelled at by their boss would be a career unemployment recipient, but that takes much longer. I applaud Linus' stance and hope that maybe this will be a clue for the rest of the world that OSS needs to be as serious as any other development effort or it's doomed to be relegated to ... well, folks like we have here complaining about Linus.

God I can't quit laughing here ... flamebait .... maybe I'm baiting you to use your mod points on something other than "insightful"?

"Just for Fun"

[McSnickered]

In Torvalds' book, "Just for Fun", he laughs in the reader's face derisively as they look at the printed words plaintively.

Somewhere, there's got to be a "Deep Thought" by Jack Handy about Linus T.

"Contrary to what most people say, the most dangerous animal in the world is not the lion or the tiger or even the elephant. It's a shark riding on an elephant's back, just trampling and eating everything they see." ~ Jack Handy

Re:"Just for Fun"

[Jesus_666]

I hear there's soon going to be a collector's edition of the book. It comes with a built-in speaker that constantly pays a loop of Linus laughing derisively when the book is open as well as a foreword by Steve Ballmer and an exclusive demo of Duke Nukem Forever.

I laugh in your general direction

[minus9]

Having just read the thirty or so posts that have been made as I write this, I cannot believe I am the only one who read the "laugh derisively" bit as tongue-in-cheek.

Do you really imagine Linus will start jumping on planes and seeking out kernel contributers to laugh in their faces. Bloody hell, I know geeks have trouble with anything not strictly literal but sheesh.

I read it as "Certain people are repeatedly making changes at the last minute and I'd really rather they didn't".

Re:I laugh in your general direction

[pqdave]

Do you really imagine Linus will start jumping on planes and seeking out kernel contributers to laugh in their faces. Bloody hell, I know geeks have trouble with anything not strictly literal but sheesh.

...and if it were true, how many kernel contributors would increase their late patches just for the chance to meet Linus?

Re:I laugh in your general direction

[stienman]

Do you really imagine Linus will start jumping on planes and seeking out kernel contributers to laugh in their faces.

Who wouldn't want to?

-Adam

Re:I laugh in your general direction

[thesandtiger]

I agree 110%. I think the people who saw it as anything other than a joke should spend less time developing software and more time developing a basic emotional inventory or, at least, a sense of humor.

Re:I laugh in your general direction

[Hast]

That's becuase they also have seminars on how to work with British people. Particularly those in the toilet industry.

Re:I laugh in your general direction

[ScrewMaster]

Just what the hell is a ex- toilet roll?

And besides, sometimes telling a joke is necessary.

Re:Let us not forget

[Zen Punk]

Go read some of Linus's LKML or Usenet posts. He is conversationally fluent in English. You would have no way to tell he is not from an English-speaking country if you didn't know beforehand.

Re:Just what we need...

[gentleolas]

Who knows his team's motivations better? They probably like the dominating tone! ;-) Whip-CRACK!

He's absolutely right!

[Spy der Mann]

Think of this: All the reported bugs have been fixed, you're about to make a new release, and a last minute change introduces an awry bug that forces you to make ANOTHER release.

And what happens if in that "another release" another guy makes ONE MORE last minute change and... well you get the idea.

I've seen this happen at sourceforge projects, and this is what gives Open Source such a bad reputation - buggy projects. Sure, 999 bugs have been fixed, but 10 major flaws are introduced with the next version. Just search any SF project's bugs for "crash" or "segfault", and you'll get the idea (and these are reports about RELEASES, not cvs). And why does this happen? Because of devs NOT RESPECTING the timings!

So, please guys, p-l-e-a-s-e, respect the timing! This is Linux we're talking about, not some hobby project.

Re:He's absolutely right!

[Spy der Mann]

I'm talking about Linux 2.6+. Not Linux 1.0 which was a hobby at the time. (Or are you saying most web servers in the world are running on a hobby project?)

Re:He's absolutely right!

[wolf31o2]

(Or are you saying most web servers in the world are running on a hobby project?)

Yup. I'm pretty sure that he is saying exactly that.

Re:If my boss

[pentalive]

Sure they can quit, apply their skill to some other project. Enough of them do that and the kernel just stops in it's tracks. For that matter, what's to stop a group of them from forking the kernel?

Re:Let us not forget

[east coast]

I know i sure as --ll get pissed off when I just finish a project at work and they throw in two more requests AFTER testing is over.

Really? Most coders know this is standard operating procedure.

Fork it!

[BigPoppaT]

For all you who don't like how Linus is handling this, hey fork the code, start your own development.

Maybe his phrasing was a bit harsh, but remember that he is not just a developer - he really plays the role of Project Manager here, and sometimes the PM has to send a wakeup call. That's what this sounds like. Not that big a deal.

Think about all the failed FOSS projects where nobody did this - UserLinux and Hurd spring to mind. (Now for some posts telling me that Hurd isn't a failure, even though it's not production-ready after what, 16 years now?) Makes you kind of glad Linus is managing this thing.

Re:Fork it!

[Slack3r78]

If I'm not mistaken, HURD recently scrapped a good amount of the work that's been done to migrate to a new Kernel. Amused me because it was just after they'd finally gotten their first userspace binary running on the system.

Re:Fork it!

[slashdot_commentator]

It was a good move. L3 is a much more elegant microkernel than Mach. To not do so, would have been to try to build on top of an obsolete, significantly flawed microkernel. An analogous incident was when Netscape chucked its next generation browser version work, and rebuild off of the gecko project now known as Mozilla. It was a hideous, suicidal decision from a business point of view, but we enjoy the fruits of that decision today.

Note I do not claim we will see the completion of a usable HURD OS in the near (or far) future.

Re:Fork it!

[HiThere]

Actually, I consider the Hurd to be very important. It's niche isn't to be competition to Linux, but rather to be the place where OS R&D is done that's too speculative to be done on Linux. True, this could be done on a fork of Linux, but there's really no reason to do that. But keeping the Hurd in reserve has several rather nice security features. E.g., it's a deep reserve, in case there are point legal changes that render both Linux and the BSDs unuseable, there is a fair chance that the Hurd would be able to adapt. And with sufficient support it could be fairly quickly be taken from research status to working status.

That said, I must admit that I've never used it. And I haven't used Plan9, or any of the other alternatives, either. But I do consider that it's important that they exist. If a giant meteor impact occurs, and wipes out the dinosaurs, we want the mammals to be able to evolve, and not need to retreat and re-evolve from microbes. (Take that metaphorically, please. Otherwise it will sound like gibberish.)

Ouch.

[kelleher]

and having been a college sophmore once I must agree with you...

Those were the days - back when I knew everything and wouldn't take constructive critisism from anyone!

Re:Ouch.

[jahudabudy]

and having been a college sophmore once

Ha! I was a college sophomore twice. Well, twice as long as most, anyway :-)

Re:Let us not forget

[oneandoneis2]

Go read some of Linus's LKML or Usenet posts. He is conversationally fluent in English. You would have no way to tell he is not from an English-speaking country if you didn't know beforehand.

You would if you heard him speak - he completely mis-pronounces the word "Linux", for example ;o)

YES!

[zaguar]

It's _important_ _to_ _write_ _like_ _this_ so you can get _your_ point _across_!

Soon Linus' conversion will be complete

[DarthBallmer]

Linus, give in to your hate and anger, feel the power of the Dark Side of the Force.

Re:Let us not forget

[yfkar]

Perhaps we're not the best ones to tell him how "Linux" should be pronounced. ;)

Re:Take lessons from Steve Balmer

[SpinJaunt]

Throw Penguins damn it..

Not exactly.

[Grendel Drago]

Well, I guess he can't win huh? It's difficult being in his position. He wants the work to get done and he wants to make people happy. I guess him saying, "People always complain that I'm being too soft. Not so this time," is the result of all the grief he puts up with.

Not really; his goal is to release the best kernel possible. (I think he says "world domination", but that's what he means.) I've never seen Linus referred to as being a big squishy-bear when talking about his kernel management style.

Re:If my boss

[ArsenneLupin]

If my boss used this tone with me, I would quit the job.

But if you do, better make sure that there is no chair within reach...

Oops, wrong OS!

Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot....

[Anonymous Coward]

So much for Linus complaining about slashdot.
You trolling Sucker. :-)
--
[My english is better than most other people's german, so please point out mistakes politely. Thank you.]

Sucker is spelt with an "F"

Linus Matures

[birder]

It's interesting to see how the development of Linux becomes more "professional" to use that word as Linus matures. The result of this is developers have to mature at his rate also.

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Assessment is off I think

[Spirckle]

Some people talk in person one way out of a reactive impulse. Email allows you to think about your message for its optimum effectiveness to its audience. I kind of liked what Torvalds wrote and how he worded his email. Sometimes ticking people off is more effective than always placating. If Torvalds realizes that he is TOO placating in person he might at second thought write his email in a tougher way. Nothing wrong with it. It shows a complex mind at work.

Surprised /.ers are supporting this

[Brad_sk]

Its really nice that /. folks are supporting this...Atleast now they are not bashing MS by saying the service packs don't have all fixes. Its just not possible to take each and every fix until last minute.

Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot....

[scruffy]

How dare he? It is time to unleash the CowboyNeal dogs on him.

The irony is killing me!!!

[dbc]

As a manager, I have tried many times to make this same thing stick. This, in a situation where I had influence over promotions, raises, and of course also could put people on written warning and move them out of the company if need be.

But, Linus has discovered the secret of actually making it happen! Just don't pay people in the first place! Genius!

This is why Linux is so successfull.

playing by the rules? or gaming the system?

[Julian Morrison]

I suspect his comments are directed at groups who, instead of accepting that they've missed the window, decide to game the rules by submitting unfinished code in order to co-opt the bugfix window to complete the project. As though "/*TODO: write this*/" was a valid bug. That's an attempt to play Linus for a fool, and he's quite right to stomp on it.

An observation

[rinkjustice]

I'll just refuse to merge, and laugh in their faces derisively when they whine plaintively at me

I had to chuckle when I read that. Even when Linus is trying to be cruel, he still comes off as charming and agreeable.

And Let Me Be The First To Say...

[Zevon 2000]

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Either that or your just too dim to understand what the parent was talking about. That would also explain how someone who claims to be in favor of strict, precise meanings of words would refer to himself as a "Nazi".

Re:Just what we need...

[Jesus_666]

Thank you for putting a truly disturbing image in my head.

Linus isn't the only one that's had to do this

[TwoTailedFox]

Now, call me crazy, but why don't the Linux Kernel Development Team use something like SVN, to do changes like this?

You have 'trunk'. Freely Editable by Devs, and the place for new features to be written.

You then have a 'branch'. Say Linus wants an RC-1 of Trunk. he'd just copy across Trunk to an RC1 branch, let everyone make fixes to it, and then backport the fixes to the Trunk. This gives a more stable approach ro "Feature/Code Freeze".

Or am I right in assuming the Kernel is too large a portion of Software to be developed like this?

Re:Linus isn't the only one that's had to do this

[jZnat]

The Kernel is a huuuuuuuge source code to manage, and Subversion as well as many other versioning systems introduce way too much overhead as the size of the code increases. That's why Linus used the proprietary BitKeeper for so long, and now why he uses his own solution (Git?) that basically serve only to track changes to files and whatnot across several developers.

I use Subversion for my own projects, but they aren't anywhere near the size of the Linux Kernel. Some of the largest projects I've ever seen on something like CVS or SVN have been Mozilla, GNOME, and KDE, and those are generally much smaller than a kernel.

Re:Linus isn't the only one that's had to do this

[Jussi K. Kojootti]

Some of the largest projects I've ever seen on something like CVS or SVN have been Mozilla, GNOME, and KDE, and those are generally much smaller than a kernel.

That's bull, they're easily in the same ballpark. Mozilla is actually larger (if you include all components in their versioning system) that the kernel -- a whopping 30 million lines of code, if I recall correctly.

The actual problem is the need for parallelism in kernel development not present in the other projects (they work fine with a centralized SCM).

Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot....

[xs650]

[My english is better than most other people's german, so please point out mistakes politely. Thank you.]

Your English is better than most American's English; however, in Engish one capitalizes language names.

You're welcome.

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branches?

[gr8_phk]

He could just create a branch that is for regressions and bug fixes only. Then new features could just keep going into the tip. Look at GCC for example. If you look on kernel.org, there's nothing there but the last stable version and the current development version. Where does he think people are going to want to submit their patchs for new stuff? Duh.

Re:branches?

[Aadain2001]

Well, they could always hold off on their new feature patches for two weeks, wait for the stable version to be finished (it is only two weeks afterall) and then start submitting new feature patches. Duh.

Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot....

[jschrod]

Ah, that's what you do in Engish. And what does one do in English?

(Sorry, couldn't resist. :-)

linus has my sympathy

[jilles]

I have some experience coordinating releases of a software product. A key thing I have come to realize is that developers don't understand that last minute patches cause more problems than they solve. Inevitably something they regard as important creeps in and that's when you need to just say no. Convince me it's critical (stuff breaks down visibly, data is lost, etc.) or wait until the next release. I've seen this go wrong more than once. Some dork commits something 30 minutes before the release and a week later we're handing out patches for bugs that fix introduced. Unlike OSS, delays are usually hard to negotiate in a commercial setting

With a product as complex as a kernel you need lots of time to properly test and integrate stuff. A kernel release needs to be stable & reliable. Last minute changes with unkown impact are unacceptable unless they fix something that absolutely needs to be fixed.

The git scm tool that linus uses actually supports this development style very well. Developers develop and send in patches to a central repository. Linus pulls the important patches and patches his private repository for a few weeks and then locks it down for testing. That's why he can afford to tell developers to wait or adjust to his schedule.

In this respect he is quite ahead of the clearcase/cvs and svn using masses. These tools do not support this kind of development very well. The mental model of the developers is still that they need to get their stuff in the trunk asap. With git the model is get your patch out, have it tested, optimized and when it is mature and ready Linus will merge it when this fits his release schedule. For complicated changes this process should be slow or otherwise Linus ends up doing the work that should have been done before the merge.

This model is way better than freeze trunk, tell everybody to not do anything for a few months and then release.

Re:linus has my sympathy

[GvG]

Of course, with svn you can just create a release branch where only bugfixes are allowed.

I'm having a reconcilliation problem...

[way2trivial]

I read your post, and your sigline..... Mr. Pot? I'd like to introduce you to Mz. Kettle

Re:I'm having a reconcilliation problem...

[Jesus_666]

What, you mean BDSM Linus is going to become a Slashdot meme? Oh my $DEITY...

Re:Language?

[mforbes]

If you refuse to cause problems[...]

I do not think that word means what you think it means.
</pedant>

(For those tempted to take this post seriously: haven't you ever watched The Princess Bride?)

Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot....

[macshit]

This post has been a service by your local Irony Nazi.

Ironically, you appear not to know much about irony...

[There are several commonly used meanings; the one you objected to is if anything the "classic" definition of irony.]

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Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot....

[macshit]

So I ask on what basis you make the statement "Ironically, you appear not to know much about irony..."

Well, I'm not sure that it's a very good example, but a self-proclaimed "irony nazi", making a post complaining about the meaning of irony, is expected to at least get this one thing right -- but you didn't. And the fact that it's ironic makes it more ironic... :-)

A friend once explained to me that the dramatic use of irony tends to make the point that "man cannot outwit the gods", and demonstrates this by strongly emphasizing the (as your quote puts it) incongruence between the outcome implied by a character's conceit and the actual outcome, making the point of failure be exactly that which was claimed as the least likely possibility -- e.g., someone crusading against immorality being brought down by a sex scandal.

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Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot....

[macshit]

I could go back and do the same analysis of why the original post was not ironic either

Er, given that your first "analysis" failed, why risk it?

Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot....

[macshit]

Oh, BTW, just FYI, since you seemed to miss the point of my last post: your original post was an example of type #3 irony in the list posted (further illustrated by my 2nd paragraph).

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Re:And Linus complains about Slashdot....

[ScrewMaster]

{choke gasp} thank you for that.

ObVonnegut

[Doctor Memory]

there's a person living in my mirror!

Where I'm from, we call them leaks...

Re:Good- What Language was used;Who translated?

[phila152]

Excuse my ignorance, but what language was used by Linus, and who translated to get that exact quote that is being examined under a microscope? It seems to me that a literal translation would probably miss the subtle undercurrent of tongue-in-cheek humor, or any irony that a speaker intended. While I do not speak any other languages, I know that even (or maybe especially) in English there are many ways to interpret any given comment or quote.

I do think that everyone understands the overall intent though.