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Dell's Open Source Desktop Systems
An anonymous reader writes "An article at XYZComputing goes over Dell's open source line of desktop computers and workstations. The N line is something which Dell began to sell recently, but the situation is much more complex that it would seem. There is often little or no discount given if consumers opt to go with FreeDOS as their operating system. There is also a great link in the article showing how Dell is selling AMD processors in their Accessories section!" From the article: "A major hurdle preventing the growth of Linux with non-professional users has been installation the operating system and dealing with the resultant compatibility issues. An ideal solution to this would be a major manufacturer which is willing to sell computers with Linux preinstalled. This would not only make it easy for users to buy a computer and have Linux running after simply plugging it in, but it would theoretically allow the manufacturer to lower the cost of a computer because software licensing costs could be minimized."
Didn't we discuss this over a month ago???
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
How can you tell? Well, for starters, you can buy the same system with a hard disk twice the size with a 17" LCD monitor and Windows Media Center Edition for the same price.
More importantly, the 510n comes with an ATI card that will be difficult to get to work properly with X.org (dunno if Xi Graphics is still in business), whereas the 510 uses an Intel chipset that, while not great, will probably work better.
And why not simply install a popular Linux distribution on it from the get go? They could "brand" it simply by adding a package with Dell-logo wallpapers, themes, and icon sets.
Dell's just grubbing for some positive press.
Dell could never pre-install linux on their systems - unless if it was a paid version. If they did, they'd have to support it which would level their margins - if not pull it into the negative.
We live in a capitalistic society (especially here in the "United" States). Since M$ can apply large amounts of financial pressure against vendors by saying, "if you pre-install Linux at any large scale, we'll pull our preferred customer discount for your OEM Windows prices", they effectively can coerce third party vendors to ignore Linux on a large scale.
What is *needed* is a start-up company to get capital venture funding and start a hardware store to compete with the likes of Dell... but to ONLY use Open-Source, and spend their captial funding on ADVERTISEMENT of the advantages of FOSS.
Something like a televised "Get the Factual Facts"...
I'd buy a computer from that kind of company on principle, and I'd CERTAINLY suggest that my less-than-technically-saavy friends would do the same.
G.B.Y.L.B.T.,
PastorEd
We did discuss this recently, and "obviously nothing changes :-)"
You might want to look at the work of the group to remove the "private microsoft tax " on PC.
(most of the content is in french but at least you have an english Intro)
https://www2.aful.org/sections/wikis/detaxe/GdTDet axeEnglish/cps_wiki_pageview
It is interesting to notice that the same IT vendors that are yelling against levy on harddisk and usb memory sticks to manage the rights of copyright owners, and prefer to push DRMS (with all the civic rights adverse impacts)
Do perfectly accept to pay a microsoft "levvy" for each and all of their PCs.
Have you ever set up a brand new dell for someone? There's so much shitware installed, free trials of dvd players, etc, etc, that it's faster to format and reinstall straight away than to uninstall it all. Each of those bits of bundled wankware earns dell money, it more than offsets the XP bulk license cost.
What would be good is a way to buy a dell and immediately sell the license on to a reseller.
I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
I bought a PC recently. Part of the justification was that I would finally get round to setting up a Linux desktop and configure it just the way I want.
But all the distros I've tried so far have had hardware issues that I consider pretty fundamental to a desktop. RedHat - getting nvidia graphics installed to run Doom3. SuSE - intermittent sound and wifi issues. Ubuntu - screen resolution issues, sound issues, unremembered wifi config. (Knoppix is next, fingers crossed.)
I can solve all of these, by getting down and hacking the config files, but the fact that these mature and well-backed distros don't Just Work illustrates the fact that getting a Linux desktop distro to work is a non-trivial job, and I'm not surprised PC manufacturers aren't interested in doing it and supporting it.
I don't know what the answer is - some of these distros are backed by big companies. It's a shame IBM didn't do a distro when they had a hardware division, I think it'll takes someone who does software and hardware (like Apple) to really get it right, sell you a machine that just works.
...its a problem of the huge kick back Microsoft gives the PC maker for preinstalling Windows. This Kickback translates into a discount on the hardware for the customer. Microsoft mentally writes it off as the "handle" so they can sell the customer more "blades" later.
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
Why would I want to buy one of these Dells when Sun is offering affordable workstations that use higher-quality and higher-performance Opteron processors? And not only that, but the Sun workstations are supported very well by Solaris, as well as Linux, FreeBSD, Windows, and a multitude of other operating systems.
While I do have fond memories of Dell UNIX back in the early 1990s, I would not purchase their Linux-based systems today, just because the competition (ie. Sun) offers far superior products.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
If software licensing costs could be minimized then software revenue would be minimized.
Why would a software corporation engage in an activity where revenue would be minimized?
Answer: he wouldn't if he wanted to keep his job for long. The shareholders wouldn't stand for it.
Maybe the People's Repuplic Of Chiner will front the software.
Cogito Ergo Sum
Dell has low prices because of large production lines. A small change in the line changes the price radically. The reason the Linux machines aren't as cheap is because so few are purchased. Also Dell gets money (savings get passed to consumer) from software companies promoting their product on WINDOWS, and their aren't many (if ANY) that do that for the Linux machines.
/ 05/1240206&tid=137
This is a lame conspiracy theory, and frankly makes the Linux crowd seem desperate. I'm not trolling, but you can't honestly think this is anything other then a wild attempt to explain slower then expected adoption rates.
The reason it is more expensive has to do with economics of supply and demand, volume, etc. How this got put on the front page TWICE in such a short period of time really blows my mind.
Last Time: http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/10
*note: I'm not looking to flame/troll, this is just my $0.02. You have been warned*
didn't anyone notice that to OEMs, Windows costs about $10 a pop?
Also, setting up Windows on different hardware configurations is pretty simple - download driver, point and click. Linux is very close most of the time, but too often it requires mucking about with drivers and whatnot - that increases the OEM's cost of setting up Linux for every configuration.
In other words, instead of paying $10 per windows license, they're paying more or less the same amount to their techs for setting up linux (and subsequently supporting it, too - don't forget that linux professionals are more expensive that winderz professionals)
Did you know that "FTW" ("for the win") is a direct translation of "Sieg Heil"?
I recently bought a computer from HP that I intended to put Linux on. It was a nice, cheap computer (it suited my needs). I asked if they could sell it to me without Windows on it (they would put FreeDOS on it). Turns out I would have had to pay about $200 more for it, because of the "discount structure". Go figure...
...its a matter of the huge kick back Microsoft gives the PC macker for preinstalling Windows.
This translates into a discount on the hardware for the customer.
Microsoft mentally writes it it off as the "Handle" so they can sell the Customer more "Blades" later.
Same concept as Razors, Game Consoles, Cell Phones....
With out that kickback the PC maker has to charge more for the hardware...
Anyone who denies the Microsoft Kick back doesn't happen is just deluding themselves. The Kickback is usually represented as "marketing" funds on the balance sheet.
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
An ideal solution to this would be a major manufacturer which is willing to sell computers with Linux preinstalled.
I thought Lindows already tried this, even selling boxes at Wallymart =-)
"Murderer? Well, that's a harsh word. I prefer to think of myself as a Mortality Technician."
And discuss it at length on Slashdot.
Its so simple, really.
1) Go to www.google.com
2) enter "dell freedos site:slashdot.org", click search
3) de-dupe!
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
They also sell Precision Workstation w/ the option of having Redhat Workstation preinstalled.
Review
but
a
hassle
to
read.
Maybe with Web 2.0 someone will invent a way to put more than two paragraphs of text on a single web page.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity but they've always worked for me" - HST
That's not exactly how they phrase it. What they do say is if you buy x number less than you're buying now, and x is a very small number, we're cutting your discount to Y, much smaller discount. It's a subtle but significant difference as saying it your way might land them in hot water for price fixing. One of the few things our toothless corporate oversight authorities seem to take seriously.
Overall I think it's a good thing because it gives other OEM manufacturers a chance at a hardware market they wouldn't have had before. If Dell doesn't want to deliver Linux boxes, someone else will. And since I don't think much of Dell to begin with, that's fine with me. We don't need Dell to make Linux a success. That's going to happen with or without them.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Otherwise this just comes across as a slimy legal trick to aid Intel in their defense against AMD's lawsuit.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
They don't WANT to lower prices...
"Dell discounted low-end products too aggressively"
They'll be happy if /.ers buy N systems -- extra $$$ for Dell!
Because a given subject is once discussed on slashdot, does that mean stories can NEVER be posted about it again? Only one Sony rootkit story allowed? Do they have to always post the "this was previously discussed here" everytime a story has anything to do with a previous story? There's a difference between posting the EXACT same article, and an article on a similiar subject.
If an officer ever threatens to taze you, say you have a pacemaker.
http://www.addonshop.com/
http://www.emperorlinux.com/
http://www.ibexpc.com/
http://www.linare.com/
http://www.linspire.com/
http://www.linuxcertified.com/
http://www.microtelpc.com/
http://www.outpost.com/
http://shoprcubed.com/
http://www.sub300.com/
http://www.systemax.com/divisions.htm
http://www.walmart.com/
http://www.xandros.com/
http://tuxmobil.org/reseller.html
http://www.us.debian.org/distrib/pre-installed
http://www.linux.org/vendor/system/index.html
http://tuxmobil.org/ (general information)
No OS
(Sabio made by Quanta, like Dell-latitudes)
http://www.avadirect.com/
http://www.asimobile.com/
http://www.powernotebooks.com/
a) They sell you expensive Intel chips.
b) They sell you an expensive Microsoft Operating System.
Dell needs to realize that they could sell you a cheap AMD system with Linux installed. Given the variety on AMD chips, they could sell you low-end "desktops" or high-end "workstations".
It would be nice if Dell did preload Linux simply because that would be there way of saying that this version of Linux is certified by us to run on this unmodified system.
After all, that's one of my main arguments for buying Dell -- the fact that they build 10's of thousands of the same configuration of PC, and can therefore afford to ensure that all the components play nice with each other. It avoids the problems encountered by a DIY approach to building your PC.
My main argument against buying Dell is their refusal to sell systems with superior AMD 64-bit dual processor cpu's.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
1) Pre-bundled POLISHED Linux installations wouldn't just make a difference at the ultra low end of the market. If people knew that they could get a stable system that "just works" without having to worry about anti-virus software and spyware, I think you'd see a significant effect on the middle market. Of course, I'm not a professional economist, so YMMV.
2) "the market is too small" is a circular prophecy. The market is currently too small because no one is actively marketing Linux. And no one is actively marketing Linux because the market is too small. THAT is why I said it would take a venture capitalist... to recognize that there are significant profits to be made in this model... but someone is going to have to take a "venture" to see it happen.
G.B.Y.L.B.T.,
PastorEd
I could humorously say this the PDA effect. It seems any PDA that runs Linux is instantly more expensive than its CE counterpart and only available in Asia.
I wonder, though, if this is part of Dell just doing this to say they offer Linux. I imagine their agreement with Microsoft requires them to attach a Windows license to the machine thus keeping the price structure equal to their other PC's. Either way it really sucks. OEM's need to start telling Microsoft to kiss off in situations like this. If Dell, HP, Toshiba, and the like did this it would go along way in helping level the playing field. I know, I know, where's the incentive?
Start clicking on their ads.
The cost (to Dell) of Windows licenses will rise substantially if Dell starts (really) offering systems without Windows. Don't you people know anything about monopo-nomics?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The low end Dimensions have it. AOL, Earthlink, tons of 'trial' software. Craptastic Norton. I wipe out a lot when setting stuff up.
All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
If the the price of the identical hardware configed WIN OS Dell and Linux Dell does not show the exact price of the Win licence fee, then something is wrong. Where exactly that portion of the overall cost goes?
Consumers should have this saving in order to realize how much they benefit from free OS, otherwise it actually undermines the value of free OS.
Every day it seems like there's a new link to xyzcomputing, which is possibly the most uninformative and sophomoric tech site in existence. Without exception, every link he's posted to their crappy site has been either A) dumb and uninteresting or B) a repeat of a previous Slashdot post as well as dumb and uninteresting.
Here is the text of an email I just shot off to Zonk, i'll be curious to see if I get a response:
In all seriousness, I do not spend money subscribing to Slashdot to see this dirge on such a frequent basis. No one and nothing is perfect, and I certainly do not expect this site to be an exception, but this has just gone too far. If he's pocketing xyzcomputing ad money then he can use some of it to refund my subscription fee, cause I'm tired of being exposed to this trash.
About Dell selling Windows-free PCs:
Captain James T. Kirk: They're animals.
Captain Spock: Jim, there is an historic opportunity here.
Captain James T. Kirk: Don't believe them. Don't trust them.
Captain Spock: They're dying.
Captain James T. Kirk: Let them die!
There's no shortage of system builders willing to sell you a no-OS system. Or even a linux-equipped laptop or desktop.
Why is it Dell *has* to sell Linux? Just go somewhere else. The whole "microsoft-evil-empire" argument doesn't work here.
There's a list of OEM's a mile long that sell product around the world, why are their products better if/when they are sold through Dell?
The same kind of discussion happens around itunes DRM. I choose not to have DRM in my life, so I make different choices. Make a different system choice. There's no lack of builders waiting for your business.
Enlighten me here. Am I missing something?
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
Indeed. I had one of these at my last job. I think it was the 640n (or was it 610n?). That thing rocked the world with time to spare. Best workstation I ever had. It came with Red Hat Enterprise Linux 3 pre-installed, and the one time I had to call for support from Dell, the techs were able to diagnose the issue and get it fixed over the phone.
Just remember that, even though they sell it from their web site, it doesn't mean that these workstations don't amount to a "special order" compared with the volume of Windows PCs they're pushing through. Buy their workstations, support the business model, and I'm sure you'll see prices coming down in short order.
I don't work for Dell, own their stock, or date Michael Dell's daughter.
I was told by informed sources in the EVIL empire that Ballmer wanted to meet Otellini. The latters secretary made sure that they meet in a conference room with no chairs.
I am sure Otellini will hear "I am going to f***in Kill Dell.
"The N line is something which Dell began to sell recently, but the situation is much more complex that it would seem."
Dell has had the N line for at least 2 years now - We have a couple N systems in the office that were bought in '03. I think it's just that they've gotten more notoriety lately, so people think they are new.
Damn few of you, there are...
How come nobody likes the news? The 'n' series (3000n, 5150n) is $30 cheaper than the standard counterpart (3000, 5150).
. aspx/dimen_3000?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd . aspx/dimen_3000n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd /.ers have been complaining about prebundled Windows for years. Be happy and give some love to Dell for doing this!
http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/features
http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/features
You save 30 bucks if you don't need Windows. It's a good thing. Many
No, I don't work for Dell.
Really, about the only thing going for Dell these days is that they're cheap. The quality is atrocious, they will sell you absolute crap at the low-end, the mobos and form factors are proprietary enough to keep you from upgrading, and their tech support is ludicrous. I had bought an Inspiron 1100 for my wife a couple years back. We actually had to replace the power supply three times within a year because it kept catching fire! (literally catching fire!) This is not exactly quality stuff they're selling, but where else can you get a $699 laptop (2 years ago)? Dell's only attraction is their price point.
here, here!
People buying from Dell may want XP for variety of reasons; familiarity, compatibility with work pc, etc. It may not be the best thing for them but c'est la vie.
For the rest of you - just buy your windows pc and then the first thing you can do is install a new os - individual freedom
I used to work for a computer company in Raleigh, NC that was a Red Hat partner. They sold both boxed sets and preinstalls on servers and workstations, which was one of the reasons I went to work for them. They then opened an internet side business to increase volume and started dealing directly with MS. The short version of this story goes like this:
- MS sends reps to educate the sales and tech staff, MS mousepads and stickers flow like water
- MS gives conditional discounts on Windows and Office
- Red Hat no longer installed on new systems
- Soon after, Red Hat not installed even as an upgrade and boxed copies surplused
- Soon after that, we started refusing to service computers with Linux, company branded Linux boxes could
be serviced, but only the hardware. No OS work at all, even something as simple as fixing LILO.
Of course, we could offer to sell them windows and even install it for free.
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
enough said.
I don't think that Dell will take sides on shipping a desktop PC with any one Linux flavor. The reason is when when a company as large as Dell chooses a particular distribution they tend to make a statement. It gives the false perception that one distribution is better than the other because a large company like Dell says so. This could also create a backlask within the OSS community considering that everyone has their favorite distro and probably have little desire to switch to another. By remaining neutral Dell can let the market and customers decide for themselves. It's actually a good position from the point of both Dell and the consumer. Let the consumer decide how they want their system to look. This is the philosphy that has made Dell so successful today. Well that and no one can touch their after sale service solution.
"Help me Obi-/.-Kenobi,your my only hope!" -$
Dell doesn't want Linux or AMD to succeed, they are cleaved to the bosom of the big boys Microsoft and Intel. These "N" series computers are an attempt to "prove" that there is no demand for Linux. Kinda like how there is no demand for Opteron-based servers or other AMD processors. They will also shake down Microsoft just a little, sort of like they do to Intel with their periodic AMD threats, but they are bluffing.
And BTW, Dell makes the big bucks from selling shoddy equipment at an enormous markup, not merely from having an uber-streamlined process.
The ones I did were the low low low end laptops, you know, sub-400 quid or whatever they sell them for now. Damn they're nasty.
I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
However, if you're like most people on Slashdot, myself included, tech support isn't important because we are DIYers, and we end up saving quite a bit of money by cutting out Microsoft (as well as open source support). Dell has a problem with that, because DIYers build their own, they don't buy Dell.
On a side note, if I did buy prebuilt computers, Dell would be at the top of my list of vendors. They are good at what they do!
I have heard OEM license numbers as low as $30 for XP Home. It retails for $99
Isn't $99 the retail price for the upgrade version? I'm pretty sure the new install version of Win XP Home is $199, while the new install version of Win XP Pro is $299. The upgrade versions are $100 cheaper on each.
On Dell's web site you have great flexibility in customizing a system. Except there's no option to delete Windows and save the 30 bucks. You have to jump to another completely different Web site, and maybe you save 30 bucks. Or maybe not. And will your promo code, coupon, or discount code work?
* They will actually have to have skilled support people to support Linux.
* If any non-techie type buys the computer the support costs will be higher simply because of the non-familiarity issues.
* As soon as they try installing windows software they will call support. (Though they can upsell Crossover, Win4lin, etc. in that case so it can be a win)
There: Something at a specific location.
Their: Owned by someone.
Please make sure your english compiles.
Software vendors pay Dell et al to put crippled versions of their software on Windows PC's. Part of the reason for an increased cost of a Windows-free PC is the lack of these subsidies.
Version 1
Version 2
I'm experiencing a sense of deja vu here.
I am officially gone from
Keep in mind that any time an IBM-compatible motherboard and hard drive are sold together, be it in a PC or not, that Microsoft gets a royalty. They get this even if you don't install their OS. Just another way that the Borg Collective is out to assimilate you.
2 cents,
Queen B
HDGary secures my bank
My original post was in no way intended to be a Troll post.
I really think that model would work. What I have never SEEN is anyone actually implement that model that competes using ADVERTISING. The only ads I've ever seen on TV for Linux were a couple that were put out by IBM for Linux in general... and I think they would have been a lot more effective, if they were tied to a PRODUCT instead of a CONCEPT (which is what they were, in fact, advertising... even on the Super Bowl).
So... I am in no way affiliated with VA Software... I'm just a guy who thinks that Linux works very well for me personally, and I would love to be able to tell my friends to buy from Company X which sells machines with Linux pre-installed in the same vein as Dell.
So... no bridge here. No gold reqired from any billygoat to cross.
G.B.Y.L.B.T., PastorEd
...most of the spyware/adware related help calls, wouldn't that drastically reduce the numbers? I don't know at Dell, but with the various whitebox guys I know, the bulk of the repairs is removing malwares. Granted, hardware incompatability issues might bump the number back up, but perhaps if the linux offerings were sold as bundles with the printer and etc already there and working. And if a big place like Dell did do that, the hardware accessory vendors would take notice and react accordingly, especially if Dell gave them enough notice and lead time to get their driver act together properly.
Just a thought. Eventually, some big manufacturer will offer a legit system with linux, it will be advertised, and it will sell. It *will* eventually happen. There are a lot of lower level vendors that do so now,AOpen just recently for instance, so it is only a matter of time for it to work its way up the food chain.
What would be funny (wild card funny) is if it turned out to be Apple, shipping installed triple boot systems, OSX, Windows and some Linux or BSD.
I looked up MonarchPC.com
Their website does a pitiful job leading you to a Linux machine.
They look like another site that advertises Linux
and then spams you with Windows.
I recently purchased one of Dell's N series for a client. It came with a complimentary copy of Windows XP Professional and no FreeDOS in the box.
/^([Ss]ame [Bb]at (time, |channel.)){2}$/
Why is this modded as flaimbait? It's perfectly valid. How many Linux users can't manage to use a screwdriver? It takes all of 30 minutes to build a computer ... an hour if it's your first time ... and you save money and end up with MUCH better components as a result.
Dell serves the broad consumer market, which isn't really ready for Linux. Or should I say, Linux isn't ready for that market.
Damn good idea, and I haven't heard it yet...
jred
I'm not a mechanic but I play one in my garage...
Non-professional users shouldn't be using raw Linux or even the standard GNU/Linux distributions that Slashdot readers use. Non-professional users need a company that provides a more tailored user experience than you're going to get from a professional GNU/Linux distribution.
& when we're talking on that level, does it really mean so much what the kernel or underlying OS layers really are? The word "Linux" shouldn't even come up when talking about this sort of product.
In any case, Dell has made it clear for quite a while that they aren't interested in being that company.
(Not to mention the fact that installation of many Linux distributions have been dead-easy for anyone who knows how to turn on a computer for...what...5...10 years?)