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Build a Program Now
Graeme Williams writes "My experience with Visual Studio was several years ago, and limited to a support role. My only serious programming experience was more than twenty years ago, so I'm the kind of hobbyist programmer that Visual Basic 2005 Express and this book is aimed at. Microsoft Visual Basic 2005 Express Edition: Build a Program Now! doesn't attempt to teach you programming in general or Visual Basic in particular. It's focused on introducing the features of the Express Edition of Visual Basic 2005. I think this focus serves the book and the reader very well." Read on for the rest of Graeme's review.
Microsoft Visual Basic 2005 Express Edition: Build a Program Now!
author
Patrice Pelland
pages
xi + 209
publisher
Microsoft Press
rating
9
reviewer
Graeme Williams
ISBN
0-7356-2213-2
summary
An excellent introduction to Microsoft's new Visual Basic 2005 Express programming system
At the moment, the book is only available in PDF form as a free download from Microsoft when you register Visual Basic 2005 Express. According to Barnes & Noble, it will also be available as a paperback some time this month. The paperback will include a CD with both Visual Basic 2005 Express and SQL Server 2005 Express. This review is based on the PDF.
The PDF is an inconvenient form for an ebook. It's protected so that you can't create your own bookmarks, and Microsoft doesn't provide any, and there are no clickable links -- in the table of contents, for example. There's a menu item for find, but the text doesn't seemed to be stored as text, so find doesn't actually find anything.
The book starts off with brief descriptions of .NET, object-oriented programming and the new features in Visual Basic 2005 Express. I guess it makes sense as a general introduction, and you can skip it if you like. It's certainly not a thorough explanation of object-oriented programming, but it's enough to let someone know that there's more to learn.
The next chapter leads you through installing the software. This is of doubtful value, since it basically advises you to stay with the defaults, which you almost certainly could have done on your own. If you have a problem, the book points you to some online resources, but that's all. I had a problem because my 'My Documents' folder is on a server, and this was enough to break the default security settings. The installation offers to install SQL Server 2005 Express, but neither the installation nor the book tells you that this will leave SQL Server running all the time.
Once the software is installed, you can start programming. The examples in the book are great. Starting with a simple console application to add two numbers might seem silly, but it makes sense in Visual Basic 2005 because you can't just start typing – you have to start somewhere in particular, and you need to know how to do that. Following that, you build a Windows application to add two numbers, a web browser, a database application, and an application that retrieves data from a web service. Each example builds nicely on the one before, and they're functional enough to be useful in their own right.
As important as the examples is what you learn along the way about the tools that make up the Visual Basic 2005 system. The book shows how simple it is to use the built-in components in Visual Basic 2005 to add features and functions to your application including forms, buttons, menus, toolbars, a splash screen, an about box, web services and database connections. This is where the book really shines. It shows you very clearly how to take advantage of the time (and work) saving features of the system.
The book is pretty good at explaining how to design a form. Form design was just awful in previous versions of Visual Basic, but the book clearly explains the new features that make it a little easier. The system is still not perfect – you can't automatically create three equally spaced textboxes (input fields), for example – but that's not the fault of this book.
The book also does a good job explaining the mechanics of starting a project, building applications and libraries, debugging, and "publishing" your application. "Publishing" is what Microsoft calls the process of turning your completed program into an installer which anyone can run to install your program. There's also an excellent introduction to database tables and how to create and use them within the system.
The graphic design in the book could be better. Each step in the instructions is indicated by a large numbered green bullet, which works well when there are only a few steps on a page, but you can easily get lost when one page has ten bullets and five tables. Also, you spend a considerable amount of time setting object properties. The value for each property is shown in a table, but sometimes a single table will include more than one object and sometimes it won't, which can be confusing. Finally, the screenshots aren't very clear. These may seem like quibbles, but an introductory book has a responsibility to be as clear as possible, and then some.
As you work through the examples in the book, you can really feel yourself gaining momentum. The flip-side of this is that as you go through the book, you get less and less explanation for larger and larger chunks of code. The largest single piece of code is 56 lines long. In context, it's presented clearly enough that it's still easy to digest. One way of measuring the success of an introductory book like this is whether it gives you the confidence to keep going on your own, and I think this book does just that.
But what if you're new to programming? If you're an absolute beginner, this book won't teach you how to program in Visual Basic. For example, the book never mentions structures or recursion. You can't do any serious programming just with what you'll learn about programming from this book, but that's not its purpose. The instructions in this book ARE clear enough that you'll be able to follow along, but if you want to get the most out of this book you'll have to spend some extra time working through the examples and with learning the language, even if it's only via the online help.
On the other hand, I don't think you can know so much that this book won't be very useful. Microsoft in its wisdom changes terminology regularly (toolbar is now toolstrip??) and there are many new features in this version of Visual Basic, so it's a good idea to hire a guide.
Depending on your level of experience, you may need other resources to learn everything you want to about programming in Visual Basic 2005, but this is a great place to start."
You can purchase Microsoft Visual Basic 2005 Express Edition: Build a Program Now! from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.
At the moment, the book is only available in PDF form as a free download from Microsoft when you register Visual Basic 2005 Express. According to Barnes & Noble, it will also be available as a paperback some time this month. The paperback will include a CD with both Visual Basic 2005 Express and SQL Server 2005 Express. This review is based on the PDF.
The PDF is an inconvenient form for an ebook. It's protected so that you can't create your own bookmarks, and Microsoft doesn't provide any, and there are no clickable links -- in the table of contents, for example. There's a menu item for find, but the text doesn't seemed to be stored as text, so find doesn't actually find anything.
The book starts off with brief descriptions of .NET, object-oriented programming and the new features in Visual Basic 2005 Express. I guess it makes sense as a general introduction, and you can skip it if you like. It's certainly not a thorough explanation of object-oriented programming, but it's enough to let someone know that there's more to learn.
The next chapter leads you through installing the software. This is of doubtful value, since it basically advises you to stay with the defaults, which you almost certainly could have done on your own. If you have a problem, the book points you to some online resources, but that's all. I had a problem because my 'My Documents' folder is on a server, and this was enough to break the default security settings. The installation offers to install SQL Server 2005 Express, but neither the installation nor the book tells you that this will leave SQL Server running all the time.
Once the software is installed, you can start programming. The examples in the book are great. Starting with a simple console application to add two numbers might seem silly, but it makes sense in Visual Basic 2005 because you can't just start typing – you have to start somewhere in particular, and you need to know how to do that. Following that, you build a Windows application to add two numbers, a web browser, a database application, and an application that retrieves data from a web service. Each example builds nicely on the one before, and they're functional enough to be useful in their own right.
As important as the examples is what you learn along the way about the tools that make up the Visual Basic 2005 system. The book shows how simple it is to use the built-in components in Visual Basic 2005 to add features and functions to your application including forms, buttons, menus, toolbars, a splash screen, an about box, web services and database connections. This is where the book really shines. It shows you very clearly how to take advantage of the time (and work) saving features of the system.
The book is pretty good at explaining how to design a form. Form design was just awful in previous versions of Visual Basic, but the book clearly explains the new features that make it a little easier. The system is still not perfect – you can't automatically create three equally spaced textboxes (input fields), for example – but that's not the fault of this book.
The book also does a good job explaining the mechanics of starting a project, building applications and libraries, debugging, and "publishing" your application. "Publishing" is what Microsoft calls the process of turning your completed program into an installer which anyone can run to install your program. There's also an excellent introduction to database tables and how to create and use them within the system.
The graphic design in the book could be better. Each step in the instructions is indicated by a large numbered green bullet, which works well when there are only a few steps on a page, but you can easily get lost when one page has ten bullets and five tables. Also, you spend a considerable amount of time setting object properties. The value for each property is shown in a table, but sometimes a single table will include more than one object and sometimes it won't, which can be confusing. Finally, the screenshots aren't very clear. These may seem like quibbles, but an introductory book has a responsibility to be as clear as possible, and then some.
As you work through the examples in the book, you can really feel yourself gaining momentum. The flip-side of this is that as you go through the book, you get less and less explanation for larger and larger chunks of code. The largest single piece of code is 56 lines long. In context, it's presented clearly enough that it's still easy to digest. One way of measuring the success of an introductory book like this is whether it gives you the confidence to keep going on your own, and I think this book does just that.
But what if you're new to programming? If you're an absolute beginner, this book won't teach you how to program in Visual Basic. For example, the book never mentions structures or recursion. You can't do any serious programming just with what you'll learn about programming from this book, but that's not its purpose. The instructions in this book ARE clear enough that you'll be able to follow along, but if you want to get the most out of this book you'll have to spend some extra time working through the examples and with learning the language, even if it's only via the online help.
On the other hand, I don't think you can know so much that this book won't be very useful. Microsoft in its wisdom changes terminology regularly (toolbar is now toolstrip??) and there are many new features in this version of Visual Basic, so it's a good idea to hire a guide.
Depending on your level of experience, you may need other resources to learn everything you want to about programming in Visual Basic 2005, but this is a great place to start."
You can purchase Microsoft Visual Basic 2005 Express Edition: Build a Program Now! from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.
Although severely crippled when compared to the enterprise edition, Microsoft's express edition of their Visual Studio products are actually decent. You can get basic programs coded in Express without a lot of the overhead (or features) of the professional editions.
Book Title: Microsoft Visual Basic 2005 Express Edition: Build a Program Now!
From Review: If you're an absolute beginner, this book won't teach you how to program in Visual Basic.
Brilliant!
I had high expectations when I read this book, and I'm pleased to say that I was more than satisfied. My Visual Studio "Hello World" program ROCKS!
"The dew has clearly fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning"
Wouldn't it be like a book called "Build a House Now" about building your house out of cardboard boxes? Sure, it's house-like, and you can live in it, but do you really want to take credit for it?
Does it have anything that can be applied to GAMBAS? We need a good tutorial for that. I'd like to teach my junior op to code but I'm an Old Fart C and ASM coder. Don't do Visual anything.
torrent plz!
Everyone has to learn somewhere, although if you are serious, VisualBasic is not the place to start. In my experience, the typical VisualBasic developer is just that. A good developer needs to understand concepts outside of the frame of wizards and such. Probably one of the biggest flaws in VisualStudio in general. MS loves wizards.
Microsoft Visual Basic 2005 Express Edition: Build a Program Now!
This must have been the main source of influence for M$ engineers working on Windows.
This book is to programming as the instructions on the back of a pot noodle are to cooking.
Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com
Saying "serious programming" in the same sentence as "Visual Basic" makes the Baby Jeebus cry.
Socialism: A feeling of discontent and resentment caused by a desire for the possessions or qualities of another.
Afterall, I'm not going to be around to maintain it or be responsible for its crappiness.
Holy crap weirdbeard, thanks for the passing reference, I had never heard of that before! Next time, be nice a post a link.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
With GUI:
;)
echo "alert('Hello world');" >hello.html
firefox hello.html
(9 seconds
10 Home
20 Print "What is the password: "
30 Get A$
40 If A$ = "b" then goto 70
50 Print "Wrong!"
60 Goto 20
70 Print "Right"
80 End
Now compare that kind of linear logic to a Java program with classes and { () and all that jazz. I remember when starting Java, thinking why do I need 3 different classes imported just to do a simple hello world? VB was no different, they had forms where you needed to drag and drop control boxes, and the like. Very little is straight forward, where a user/programmer could figure out the logic without a teacher/tutor.
I wonder how much more difficult the learning curve is? Maybe the programs will be better, and the programmers more skilled, but there was an element of fun in a language that is so simple a 7 year old can write his own code. Compare that to my college level Java class, which started 28 strong, and ended with only 16 students for the final exam.
What happened to a computer language that is intuitive and very easy, that anybody can learn?
An IT manager from WAMU who had been to MS campus to work his strategies to migrate to .NET told me that he was asked by MS's PM to migrate his applications to VC#. Though MS will continue to support VB but are softly asking managers to move towards VC#.
I don't know a lot about VB but MS seriously is in deep shit with VC especially the language syntax in 2005. Not many liked it. They also didn't support STL.NET which majority of the folks wanted. Is this something new?
Next quarter. At the community college (don't laugh) I'm going to it's a prerequisite to take Java. WHY? I have no clue. Maybe the Java Prof doesn't want to have to explain what a method is. I don't know. But I am going to have to go through an entire 3 months of this.
I am upset, because I allready know a lot of programming concepts, even if I'm not fluent in any particular language (I know a smidgen of Perl). I'd rather just jump right into Java, but I can't. (or, you know, C++. They don't even offer that. Stupid High School 2.0) Maybe I won't be totally ruined. I at least KNOW that VB isn't exactly the best language on the planet. And knowing is half the battle! Any help on keeping the mind clear of the crud and pulling any useful info from the class?
--The universe will not be altered by forum threads, even those which are very wry. --Tycho Brahe (Penny Arcade)
VB Express (.img file)
http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?linkid=54764
VB Express (.iso file)
http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?linkid=57033
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity but they've always worked for me" - HST
I'm not sure that program would work. You might want to thrown an "escape" in there, probably just before the ZZ. Then maybe it'd work. :)
1) Insert key
2) turn on engine
3) put in drive
4) point car
5)step (I won't tell you which pedal...you'll figure out which one makes you move).
Serious question. If you need to build a quick, simple, gui app for an end user (in a Windows environment), what's better? You can do a lot of useful stuff with a couple minutes worth of code.
even mIRC scripting code is more interesting to learn!!
the only permanence in existence, is the impermanence of existence.
And so if you read this book you will get a microscopic and highly specialized view of programming in VB, minus all that unnecessary fluff like learning logic, pseudocoding, and documentation. Then you too can move to Redmond, get a good-paying job, and help create the newest set of flaws for IE, Office, Outlook and all other products in the ever-expanding Microsoft family of software!
GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
Why not just start with QT and BAM! Instantly portable app ( well, not instant. I'm sure there are considerations you have to keep in mind if you want portable, but it's easier at least )?
I do light programming, nothing professional, so maybe I'm just not in on the loop on this one.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
pico x
[ctrl-x]y
chmod +x x
php x
Save yourself $3.74 by buying the book here: Build a Program Now. And if you use the "secret" A9.com discount, you can save an extra 1.57%!
then try to figure out how to make it work. Isn't that how most programming newbies will treat VB? They'll make these great GUI's without a working backend and go "wow, I'm an amazing programmer". yeah.
Meh.
What is VB for ?
Is it for beginners ? If so then well done - people who don't understand the essentials of coding can now knock out their dodgy apps at a faster rate.
Is it for experienced developers ? Only Joking.
Is it for everyone across the board ?
No! You have to go out of your way to develop a serious app in VB because the abstractions that make it attractive to the uninitiated are a bugger to get round.
OK, in honesty, I don't like IDEs, debuggers or any of that stuff, but if you want it simple then the problem was cracked years ago.
There's a movie in existence (I have it if you want a copy) of Steve Jobbs creating a full-on-graphical app, that does database lookups and does the washing-up, and he proudly adds "and I still haven't had to write a single line of code!". This was in 1992 and on the NeXT. The wonderful development environment he was on about has grown into XCode and is given away FREE with OS-X.
Now, the idea of writing apps without needing to write code scares the pants off me...but Xcode also lets you, and indeed encourages you, to get deeper - *and makes it easier to do so*
You don't even need to spark-up the IDE.
If I *had* to design a graphical dev environment then XCode is what I'd use as a reference.
But I prefer vi and gcc...so what do I know ?
What happened to a computer language that is intuitive and very easy, that anybody can learn?
Security mostly. Scope is huge. Being able to define things that only exist within the curly braces is a blessing. Namespaces. Classes. Inheritance. All of that stuff that makes development such a joy. I'm not a computer scientist, I'm an aerospace engineer but I do simulation programming and all of these developments in object-oriented programming make my life so much easier. It is harder then when I was a kid and wrote my first programs in QBASIC, but man I'd much rather dig into a book and have to scratch my head a little learning C++ than go back to the old days...
-everphilski-
"Overview: Easy to use - Fun - Easy to learn" Glad we got THAT straight. Somehow I don't think the little banner add off to the side telling me to visit the new Coding4Fun developer center will make Microsoft look more hip...
http://www.TheGamerNation.com/Forums
Aside from that, what about the fact that the book is crippled, without even chapter bookmarks or links?
So it fails at it's stated goal and without the ability to search, it fails as a reference book. As an e-book, it can't even be used as a doorstop... how much did this reviewer get paid to give it a "9"?!
...not a (insert-language-here) programmer. Get that through your head. (the sooner, the better) A good CS major should be able to pick up any language because the concepts are mostly the same.
-everphilski-
You never get out of insert mode, try adding a ^C after "Hello World!".
I eagerly await future books in the series such as:
Visual Studio 2005: Laying the Groundwork for Future Exploitation
Visual Studio 2005: A Catalyst for System Compromise
Visual Studio 2005: Pseudo-Security; It Makes You Feel Better
Visual Studio 2005: Allowing Users to Do Things You Never Intended
I do remember programs like the above (the old Compute! magazine provided listings of old-style BASIC programs each month), but such code is the very definition of "spaghetti". ;-)
I remember those magazines too. It was such a fun way to learn, they would have code which anyone could type and save. The real fun started with changing the code in the magazine to do something new. One new 50 line program could provide a months worth of learning and playing. I remember looking at one months 50 lines of code, and remembering something from last year which I thought would be cool to add, and digging through a stack of magazines looking for that code.
I doubt there is any magazine like that for Java or C++, that a new user could type in notepad, and run without doing anything special. And I bet it would be difficult for new users to decipher C++ code, if they never had any real training.
The learning curve is definitely more difficult.
The only thing like old Basic might be HTML. There are no numbers, but the learning is the same. Anyone can look at the source, and re-arrange the code to make a new looking page. But even basic HTML is being pushed aside for CSS and scripting.
Bill Gates should give the author a complemenary XBox 360 for contributions to better use of VBE 2005.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
I actually did, but using the preview function to see if it survives it into the post might not have been a bad idea.
My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
...Basic causes brain damage!
Teaching a person how to create an application WITHOUT programming skills is edging on insanity. Its like teaching a person how to gut the fish, without learning how to get the fish in the first place.
I found that an uncle of mine going through a VB course focused on this kind of approach, learning how to write an application without learning how to program. The problem is, anytime he came across a programming problem he had to solve, he phoned me up and asked me how the code should look. Without understanding the fundamentals of conditional statements, loops, and functions, few can really start to develop a useable application.
The fact is, if you want to do anything NOT mentioned in the book (i.e. anything the examples don't cover), your out of luck, because you will not have learned the necessary skills to find out how to do more then what the book mentions.
I would think this books sounds best for those familiar with programming, but NOT with the VB.Net 2005, for instance, those that are wondering what that new ToolStrip object does. It's designed as a refresher for those looking to understand what new features are and how to use them.
In any regard, VB is a good tool to be able to develop an application with MINIMAL programming skills, but I would be hard pressed to find someone actually wanting to design an application without some desire to understand how to do some basic programming. Anyone earning a paycheck by writing application swithout understanding how to program should seriously consider the morality of cashing his paycheck.
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
put out a good book on "Visual Security" fake edit: please don't moderate this as a troll or flame bait...its funny...FUNNY I SAY :)
So when did it become Get, let alone accept lower case?
In my day it was:
30 INPUT A$
and that's all there was to it.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
You went straight to HTML. You just ruined me! That was supposed to be book number 2 in the series!
My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
Give a man a fish, he eats for a night. Teach a man to fish, he lives for a lifetime.
It seems you have not managed to buy more memory.
"The installation offers to install SQL Server 2005 Express, but neither the installation nor the book tells you that this will leave SQL Server running all the time."
So you're saying that normally when you install a database, it doesn't also install a service?
"It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration." - Edsger Dijkstra
'nuff said
What's wrong with VB or VB Express ? What's wrong with coding as a hobby and using these tools ?
Did you read the article where he says he's a hobbyist ? Why do you all need to rag on him, the book and program ?
In architechture schools you learn to build houses with cardboard first to understand the concepts, then you get to work with concrete.
Are you all so insecure about your jobs that you wouldn't encourage others to learn to write programs ? I don't see any other ideas from this audience, just hostility.
LouSir
... at rotting your brain and making you useless and illogical.
you're better off "programming" html...
please, please don't let your friends "program" with Visual Basic. Please?
-pyrrho
Informative? This is the same kaleidojewel Amazon-referral-whoring post he sticks in every single book review thread on Slashdot. Note the redirect.
Pathetic.
This is a book not about programming, but about getting things done quickly. VB is by far and away, the best programming language/tool I've ever seen to do this. It's simply not necessary to learn the ins and outs of trees, arrays, pointers, etc. if you need a quick and dirty program to get something done. Kinda' like you don't need to know the ins and outs of a modern combustion engine if you just want to change your oil. Personally, I can't count the number of times that I needed to get something done quickly and easily and VB has filled that need.
If yur looking to whip up a quick application and have any idea as to how Java or VB works (even driven programming), you might as well d/l the free trial RealBasic suite and use that. Yes, you need to purchase a license to instantiate a DB connection, but skip VB for when you want cross platform and dont want to insist on a JRE to run your program. /didnt read article //abandoned VB at v6 ///RB is not 100% stable to develop on windows, but good on linux/mac
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
do we want any more amature "programmers" building sloppy apps with aweful code? Then after they spend 2 years on the self-learning curve untangling all the spagetti code they wrote when they were learning they turn around and put "Experienced VB.Net Programmer (2 years)" on their resume?
Visual Studio's helpful interface is totally awesome and helpful. Every truely good programmer will appreciate all of the time-saving features. However, a side effect of this ease-of-use is that people with no good training will be able to hack bad apps together which will damage the reputation of programmers in general.
I can trim 9 seconds off that and make it more portable:
./program.sh
/bin/bash, but /bin/sh is pretty universal. In addition expecting a nube to use vi without telling them to use ESC to exit insert mode is just cruel. :)
cat << EOF > program.sh
#!/bin/sh
echo 'Hello World!'
EOF
chmod +x program.sh
Output:
Hello World!
Not all systems have
That Apple II+ programming you described looks exactly what I fiddled around with on a Ti-83 (calculator) when I was about 14. It was so easy that you could quickly teach yourself the basics and build more complicated programs with loops etc. It was quite interesting to try to combine all sorts of stuff to get the result you wanted. And because of the limitations, it was often needed to use some creative programming. I still miss "goto" in more complex languages :( .
Firehed - Unfortunately, thanks to medical breakthroughs, common sense is not as common as it once was.
This thoughtcrime has been reported to the Ministry of Truth. Stand by for reeducation.
I will include these revisions in the second edition.
My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
you forgot to mention to hit [Esc] before typing in ZZ.
It really doesn't matter what IT managers like after they have bought into Microsoft platform lock-in. If Microsoft says "migrate to VC#", they will migrate to VC# if they want any support (and they do, that's why they bought into Microsoft platform lock-in). Issue closed.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
- Build a Cyclotron Now!
- Build a Nuclear Reactor Now!
- Build a Cruise Missile Now!
That's collected from stuff I've just seen today...See the pattern? Get something not trivial, package it as a you-can-do-it-also-without-formal-training and live happily without fear of consequences. Ignorance is bliss! Yipee!
I was sent the C# version last week and read it over the weekend. Not exactly an amazing book. The free videos they off on microsoft.com are much better as a learning aid to new programmers.
:P
However C# Express Edition is a damn good bit of kit. Considering it comes with MSDN Library and SQL Express and all for free it is very impressive and an excellent move by Microsoft im my opinion.
Great software just a shame the book sucks. Oh well at least you get a copy of it on CD with the book
Everyone has to start somewhere! Good job with the book.
.Net, specifically VB, is the only product line we use with our PAYING customers and they love the results.
.Net ALL of it's languages (VB, C#, etc.) are compiled into CLR (common language runtime) code.
.Net Remoting, Web-enabled windows applications, Web sites, pure middleware, and it's ALL Object Oriented--- mmmmm, inheritance, polymorphism.. the possibilites boggle the mind!
Code on dudes.. code on. :-)
Visual Studio
VB can be very fast for GUI prototyping and in
For our customers we've done Web Services,
Cogito Ergo Sum
Welcome to slashdot LouSir. Please remember that trolling about anything that comes from the Redmond Giant will make you cool.
Cheers,
Adolfo
Okay I went straight out and registered to see if some special link pops up... but I can't seem to find where to download this PDF?
Can anyone help... or is it not available anymore?
You can get the Microsoft® Visual Web Developer(TM) 2005 Express Edition: Build a Web Site Now! e-book free when you register the Express Edition(s).
e tails.aspx?siteid=40&downloadid=240
https://connect.microsoft.com/downloads/downloadD
VC Express is a free download too... but getting VC Express to install correctly and compile a simple app is another story. Seems you have to download and install Visual Studio, then VC Express... almost a 1GB of downloads so far and you're not done yet! You also have to downlaod and install the MSDN libraries because VC Express does not include the standard Windows header files like windows.h!!! Screw that. I went back good 'ol lcc: http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32/
Well, as a former VB user (don't flame me Slashdotters, I have redeemed myself by learning C, C++, and Java), VB itself isn't half bad. Need a GUI for an application? With Visual Basic, you are done in just ten minutes or so. Need to access a database? Just drag the control, change some variables, type some minimal code, and you're done. Visual Basic allows you to make simple programs very quickly. Now, Visual Basic becomes impractical for larger, more complex projects (such as high-end video games, office suites, real web browsers, and other more complex applications), but Visual Basic is very efficient for small, business applications (e.g., keeping payrolls, databases, etc.). It is so easy to use, a 10-year old can learn it within a few days (I learned VB when I was 10, after learning QBasic for a year, and I know of other programmers who done the same when they were 10. Note that my Visual Basic knowledge is limited to VB 6.0; I don't know anything about VB.NET, so things might have changed).
So, why do people criticize VB? Well, Unix people don't like it because it is Windows-only and proprietary. Computer scientists and "real programmers" don't like it it breaks their style of programming; while CS majors and "real programmers" think of projects in terms of algorithms and data structures and our languages support that way of thinking, VB users think of programs as GUIs and controls, and their language supports that. VB users are criticized because, on average, they tend to not know as much about computer science topics (such as algorithms, data structures, etc.) than their counterparts, and they tend to only know VB (as compared to many computer scientists and other programmers, who know multiple languages and multiple ways of doing things). There is a culture clash between VB coders and other programmers. Finally, there is some hostility from Unix users who had some experience with badly-made $29.99 shareware Windows applications written in Visual Basic, and now resent VB and VB coders.
VB is perfectly fine for the projects that it was designed for: GUI wrappers, database accessors, business applications, and other small GUI applications. VB is quickly outgrown, however, when dealing with much larger problems, and if you want portability, forget it. Just use the right tool for the job.
*Sigh*... Yet again Microsoft copies Apple, and as usual they are late to the game... Are they just so jaded up there in redmond they can't even be bothered to come up with a new name (like "Vista")?
PCI Express (2002)
Apple Final Cut Express (2003)
Apple Airport Express (2004)
Microsoft SQL Server 2005 Express (2005)
Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 Express (2005)
The non-elitist calls everyone "kids".
Why would you use alert() in plain HTML without surrounding it in tags?
Visual Basic is the fastest way I know to make a program that looks good, but doesn't work.
This space intentionally left blank.
This is not true for the Web Developer Express Edition. You can use the datbase explorer to connect to SQL Servers, MDF files, Access, ODBC, and Oracle. VB.NET and C# do not though.
The Web edition has more features than the VB/C#/J# versions since it must support multiple languages and ASP.NET-related technologies.
They're great products.
I posted this in another post but I'll post it again.
You can get the Microsoft® Visual Web Developer(TM) 2005 Express Edition: Build a Web Site Now! e-book free when you register the Express Edition(s).
https://connect.microsoft.com/downloads/downloadD
Please post these links on the front page and remember: download early, download often. =)
I'm anti- the theory that people should NOT have to learn how the machine really works to do software engineering, it's a pipe dream and it's a shame how well it works in limited engagement, creating the illusion that it's a good idea.
Damn, should be more careful when I frame my biases, however legitimate.
-pyrrho
It's deployment. I found coding and the IDE to be very nice but
deploying a program was as hard, or harder, than it's ever been.
-- Programming with boost is like building a house with lego. It's a cool but I wouldn't want to live in it
i am taking info sys courses and in them i have done a lot of vb
.net vb has more power than the vb of yesteryear,,,, and, contrary to what you might think, vb programs dont need a form.... the current project that i am coding is currently formless
my instructor is a very smart guy who was involved with porting bsd to the microvax and managing a cray, not some washed up hack that couldnt code a real lanugage
i will admit that i am not a big fan of vb and await the moment i get to use a 'real' programing language.... but, this did expose me to the programing logic that i will put to good use once i am using that 'real' language
at this point, i am taking very high level courses where multi threading and cryptography are in use
this will most likely be a first, bad karma from both being a bsd zealot and defending vb
simple. He use the firefox feature to embed anything nonespecified into:
:-)
"alert("Hello World");"
Its a IE bug reproduced by the firefox team..
assert(expired(knowldege)); core dump
It has changed a lot since VB.6. I would not hesitate to build complex, enterprise applications with it. Especially those geared for internal use where your requirements change constantly but you have more control over system requirements.
Of course it still requires proper project management to be successful. I think the problem with many VB apps is they start out being written by one guy with no budget and little experience. And since the bean counters despise the word "rewrite", an otherwise disposable piece of code gets reused and built into a monstrosity over the years.
will this book also teach me how to make my programs crash and use up way more than thier fair share of resources too?
...but Visual Basic is very efficient for small, business applications (e.g., keeping payrolls, databases, etc.
So you're saying that VB is efficient in applications that do not require efficiency?
s/very efficient/acceptable/
AC: Only on slashdot... could the sentence "My hovercraft is full of eels." be moderated "+4, Insightful
Dude, your fcuking me right? Your program isn't linear because you are using gotos. As soon as you incorporate any branching logic, it's not linear. Truely linear programs make no decisions and are therefore trivial.
Why do we real programmers use object-oriented languages? Write a modern eccommerce system in GWBasic and then ask me. 'Nuff said.
Is there an equivalent to Visual Basic 2005 Express in the Linux world? IDEs like anjuta, kdevelop, etc. are pretty good already but still need some improvement.
Seriously, I've tried programming in a Microsoft environment. Make any other claim about Microsoft vs Linux that you will. Programming on an MS platform is a joke compared to Linux, and always will be. But if Visual Basic is all you enjoy, more power to you. Keep what you've got and be happy with it!
*Sigh*... Yet again Apple copies Microsoft, and as usual they are late to the game...and taking undue credit...
Frontpage Express (1997)
Seems every time a news item about VB comes out, we get the usual I hate VB because, or VB is not a real language, or Real Programmers Sneer at VB, or you can't learn programming in VB.
/. posters complain about the editors who dups news items...)
Give it a break!
As an MCT I taught Visual Basic from 3.0 to 6.0 to employees at a software company. it was a fundamentals class that focused first and foremsot on *concepts of programming* (gasp). Conditions, itterations, statments, structure flow, variable scope all hammered in before we got to anything to do with Objects/controls. I used the ease of VB to make learning fun, but always was the focus on the foundations of programming.
Funny thing, my next class was Objects in VB and again we designed classes outside of the language before using the tool VB to help build a Class. Had I tried that in Java or c++ then the "basic" concepts would be lost in the detail of just getting programs to compile. VB may not be 100% OO, but it is a god platform to show the basics.
Just because something is easy to use does not make it a bad tool. A hammer is a simple tool that in the right hands can build a house.
For those who Hate VB, why? What has it done to you? Call your mother a name? date your sister? Do you hate Visual Basic, or Microsoft in general. hate is such a strong emotion against a language that has done nothing more then provide a means for some to learn, others to earn. I hate java....I hate C++...nope, I can't feel it. Can't even come close to hate of two languages that come to mind. I would most likley never code in either language, but mainly because I lack the skill, and the time to master. Such happens after 24 years of programming. I've written in VB, COBOL, RPG, FORTRAN, Pascal, and dabbled in RatFor, C, Java, and now XML. None I hate; not all I like. Now only two am I comfortable with, and yet, given a change (time mainly) I'd *love* to learn C#, or C++. or more of Java. Hate? If's a fine line between hate and love.
I've said this before, it's not the language, it's the programmer. If someone understands the basic fundamentals of programming then language *does not matter* for that person will apply their understanding of concepts to bring out the best in a language. The rest wil hack, patch, kludge, or slap strings of statements that resemble a program but in fact look like a Rube Goldberg monstrosity left for others to fix.
As a general rule, when I hear a so-called programmer utter the sentence " I hate ????? language" they either are not a good Programmer, they haven't tried to see the good in anything, or their brilliance limits their vision of other peoples lives.
(And
Life is a great ride, the vehicle doesn't matter
Here's the Python equivalent:
It looks a bit longer since I didn't hardcode the "password". Save it as a
Python actually has specially made stuff to handle passwords correctly/securely etc. but that wasn't the point of the above code.
Are there any reasons not to start with Python or Ruby? I don't see them, they're easy to learn as you go along and with tons of free documentation and free books (digital format).
I'd say it's just as easy as Basic and way more powerful, the learning curve isn't that steep either. And I'm religiously convinced that Python and Ruby programs have a higher quality than anything from Viual Basic
Your toddler (or you yourself, I am) might also be interested in games... PyGame is a good start for that
http://python.org/
http://www.pygame.org/news.html
I haven't said much about Ruby but there is tons of stuff for that as well
http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/
this comment is provided "as is" and without any express or implied legibility or congruity [...]
Progress. As you may have noticed, what we are asking of computer programs has become insanely complex, and one way to deal with this complexity is to rely on layers of abstraction. While abstraction can make "stacking the blocks" a little easier, it does come with its own set of challenges. Perhaps one of the most salient is understanding exactly what those blocks are doing, and the requirements necessary for them to work together.
30 Get A$
So when did it become Get, let alone accept lower case?
In my day it was:
30 INPUT A$
and that's all there was to it.
It's been a looong time, but IIRC INPUT A$ would store a string from stdin after a user hit the enter key. GET A$ would actually wait for a keypress and store that ASCII value in A$ and move on. If you wanted a string you'd have to execute a for...next loop and put the GET values into a array of A of type CHR$.
"This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence" - Vyvyan "The Young Ones"
For enterprise applications, VB is no longer a viable language. If you are a MS shop, stick to C# or VB.Net. Otherwise there are many fine web-based scripting languages that can an application up in short order. But there is no longer any room for these evil entities to spawned throughout your organization. Packaging and deployment will be hell for your network group, and face it, as this article attests, VB is still the language of amaturs and wannabes and thats likely what you will get. Beware. Beware...
<!--
while(!am) r2();
Nice try :)
:)}}
{I'm not a Java-basher {you did well {{but I still think} the case for Java as a {beginners {learning}} language is kind of.... {ugly {confusing {non-intuitive}}}
this comment is provided "as is" and without any express or implied legibility or congruity [...]
The fact that your "hobby" attatches more strings to your life than other people's "jobs"? Until you've made the *jump* from MS to an Open Source platform, you have no idea. You're like somebody who's lived in a little box all their lives and doesn't believe in the sky. Once you can look far back on your MS days, you'll wonder if there's that much difference between "programming" in Visual Basic and huffing glue. Sure, it's a hobby, and you're hurting no one but yourself...
You get a major Linux distro, and you have not one or five or ten but something on the order of twenty programming languages and the compilers and interpretters and tools appertaining thereto, available to you immediately - FULL STRENGTH! - ready to WRITE Microsoft Windows out of the box - not crippled until you buy the super-duper-pooper-deluxe enterprise "professional" edition - all for free, nothing to buy at all, and very little to download (the odd library or development package, also free). Now *that's* a good start to a hobby.
VB isn't really 'programming' in my opinion. But VB is a great RAD prototyping tool.
I look at VB this way. VB is a great way to get something done quickly if you don't have the time to do it the RIGHT way.
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
but that's how *I* learned...took about 30 minutes the first time....I think towards the end I was typing stuff like "Please, let me out?"; ah, the memories...
What they should do is include a CD with this book with all of the examples contained in the book, pre-compiled! That way, you won't even need to copy the snippets of code included in the book--lest anything rubs off onto you making their claim of "building programs" without any programming knowledge becomes invalid. In fact, why not just sell the CD and skip the book altogether?
baa-ht visual b-b-baa-sic is b-b-aaa-ad
* Nonchalantly turns back around and continues eating Slashdot grass *
* Craps a Slashdot posting *
since real business people don't need "Developer Hacks" to construct applications. After all, they can secure their positions with a "spreadmart" using VBA. Really, it's that simple.
OK, spleen vented.
The real story is that M$ has been trying to lose VB (in any form) for several years. However, it's installed base keeps pushing for them not to drop the product.
IMHO, people should be able to use whatever language they want (and yes Virginia, if you are disciplined you can write good software in *any* language with the converse being true as well). However, a lot of the schlock that's out there comes from people who "don't know how to program". Having had to clean up a ton of this crap over the years, I'd rather people learn how to program , not just build a program thank you!
For those that choose to read the above as VB-bashing, let me make it clear that it has nothing to do with VB but rather the continued attempt to dumb down the profession.
Moderate away.....
You get a major Linux distro, and you have not one or five or ten but something on the order of twenty programming languages and the compilers and interpretters and tools appertaining thereto, available to you immediately - FULL STRENGTH! - ready to WRITE Microsoft Windows out of the box
So if I install a major Linux distro I'll immediately be able to write the next great operating system that revolutionizes computing?
Dude I am so going to do that right now!
P.S. Do you know of anything that works similarly for piano? Piano lessons are teh suck. So boring. If I could just skip right to writing concertos I could totally get my mom off my back.
but, looking at the contents I remember when books like this were called manuals and came with your software in the box.
Hey what happened to the traditional python v. perl "annie get your gun" impression?
Python: Anything Perl can do I can do better. I can do anything better than perl
Perl: no you can't
Python: yes I can
perl: no.you.can''t
Pythong: Yes I can Yes I can YES I CAN!
Perl: cpan.
People on Slashdot have said VB is a bad language, and of course, slashdot isn't a pit of scum and lies and everything posted here is a least a little true. So instead of learning something valuable that can make you a lot of money (.NET is a very popular development platform, ask any IT recruiter), you've already decided that you're too cool for VB. Here's a tip, if you take anything you read on slashdot seriously, you're not too cool for ANYTHING.
Part of the problem may be that VB enables people with not a lot of experience at program design in any language to generate these quick-and-dirty applications that morph into critical applications in some business that some person then has to maintain. I guess the ability to work with C++ is regarded as a kind of "union card." The C++ qualification weeds out a lot of people. But this idea of choice of language to control programming is not a new one: currently the idea is C++ as a kind of intelligence test; some 20 years ago the idea was forcing programming in Pascal as a kind of test for patience or perhaps obsessive/compulsive neatness as a qualification for good programming.
I also think there is some fault in Visual Basic itself. If you look over the GoF Design Patterns, Visual Basic is pretty much stuck on the Mediator Pattern, which may tend to flatten program structure and lead to spaghetti code.
The basic pattern in GUI programming is that you have a widget, say a button, that responds to user input, say the user clicking the button with a mouse. You then have some "business rules" or "program logic" that is supposed to be invoked in response to the button click. The Observer pattern states that you can register some Observer object with button object to be activated in response to clicks. The Mediator pattern states that if you have a collection of button objects, you register a single observer, the Mediator, with all of those buttons, to contain all of the "program logic."
In Visual Basic you have a form, and you place widgets on that form, and when something happens in those widgets, you have one or more functions for the main form object that respond to those events. Some of the widgets require a lot of hand holding -- they fire off a lot of events for a variety of conditions and the main form code has to figure out what to do in response. The consequence of this is that the main form can get complicated very quickly with numerous event functions and numerous state variables to keep track of what event got fired and which mode one is in.
In Java, you have these action listener and event listener interfaces that you can register with widgets that signal mouse clicks and other actions. You have the flexibility of having a separate listener object for each widget or having the main form Frame or JFrame object be the listener by implementing the listener interface. You have the design choice of having a flat hierarchy or of having a collection of objects respond to different events. Whether people programming Java are able to use this flexibility effectively is another matter, but Java programmers are not forced to stuffing all of the program logic into the main form Frame object.
For example, if you have a widget that fires a large number of events and requires specific responses to all of those events, and implementing a widget that way may be a way of make a widget very flexible and easy to customize, you could write a specific Java listener class to not only respond to all of those events but also to implement some filtering logic on those events. In Visual Basic, my understanding is that all of that filtering logic has to go into the main form and that there isn't a simple and obvious way to parcel off that logic to another object. It is for this reason that the language snobs consider that for all of its faults, Java is "industrial strength" while Visual Basic remains a "toy language."
Now there are language snobs who fault Java for not having closures, the ability to register functions with classes or objects on the fly, for a clunky way of inspecting an object for functions and function signatures called reflection, and so on. But the number of people who understand how to use those features effectively is more limited. There are a lot of people who know how to use objects effectively and are frustrated by VB 6 having a crippled object system.
I just bought the wxWidgets book for £27 including postage. It gives instruction on cross-platform development, streaming, networking, multithreading, basic OpenGL, application structure, comes with a CD with DialogBlocks and a lot of sourcecode...
I'd say it's more useful ^.^
Goten Xiao
Someone who's programming as a hobby probably wants to run their creations on their ordinary home PC - which is generally a windows machine. And having 20 languages, compilers and interpretters probably woudn't make things easier for them either, just confuse them. Not to mention they probably want to be able to create simple GUIs, which is much easier in VB.
Why do so many people here always have to push Linux everywhere and for everything? Why push Linux if it's not the right tool for the right job? If someone asked me what would be a good way to learn basic programming as a hobby, and they had a windows PC already (like most people do), I would rather suggest downloading something like these vb express editions than telling them install Linux (and recompile their kernel just to get sound card going, hack Xconfig file to get their video card going, and/or work through horible dependancies to install anything), and have them trying to write some C command line program.
" Not all wizards are bad."
No, Gandalf was good.
Not to knock VS too much, it's a great IDE, which I've used since VS 97, and you can certainly configure it to work as preferable, from just using it as an editor/compiler, to using the excellent debugger, to running lex and yacc. [Well things have changed a while since I used it for this, it is a kick they recommend downloading Cygwin - times change!]
I'm sorry, but does anyone else find it just a little bit odd that the example flow goes from console adding numbers to GUI adding numbers, to WEB BROWSER?
Although I'm sure what is actually meant is to make a pretty GUI for a web browser and then tell VB to put a web browser in this little box, people should be aware that they are not actually making a complete web browser with rendering engine etc.
Then they start talking to databases and web servers. This is insane... if you actually want to teach someone programming, your first five programs should go a little something like this:
1. Hello world
2. variables
3. functions
4. simple classes/structs/what have you
5. file and/or user IO
#3 should never be web browser!!!
Someone who's programming as a hobby probably wants to run their creations on their ordinary home PC - which is generally a windows machine.
Linux can compile for Windows as easily as it compiles for Linux - have you not heard of Wine, the Windows Emulator? The assumption that Windows is the default machine isn't the point. The point is, they need to change that.
And having 20 languages, compilers and interpretters probably woudn't make things easier for them either, just confuse them.
No, it won't confuse anybody at all. Sorry to hear you have such an insultingly small opinion of your own mind, but in fact people, when given choices, like the freedom to be able to shop around and pick what they want. Are you too confused by the proliferation of grocery stores to go shopping for food? Are you too confused by the menu at the restaurant to know how to order? How do you eat?
Not to mention they probably want to be able to create simple GUIs, which is much easier in VB.
You obviously haven't tried Glade, GTK, or Tcl/tk.
Why do so many people here always have to push Linux everywhere and for everything? Why push Linux if it's not the right tool for the right job? If someone asked me what would be a good way to learn basic programming as a hobby, and they had a windows PC already (like most people do), I would rather suggest downloading something like these vb express editions than telling them install Linux (and recompile their kernel just to get sound card going, hack Xconfig file to get their video card going, and/or work through horible dependancies to install anything), and have them trying to write some C command line program.
Hope your check from Microsoft was worth your time! In fact, just about every word of this paragraph is a false assumption.
As my good deed for the day, I'm going to even try to spread enlightenment one AC at a time:
:)
Thanks for taking the time
Linux can compile for Windows as easily as it compiles for Linux - have you not heard of Wine, the Windows Emulator? The assumption that Windows is the default machine isn't the point. The point is, they need to change that.
Linux might compile as easily, but we're talking about hobbyists. I've used WINE before, but I wouldn't recommed it to someone inexperienced with computers or Linux.
No, it won't confuse anybody at all. Sorry to hear you have such an insultingly small opinion of your own mind, but in fact people, when given choices, like the freedom to be able to shop around and pick what they want. Are you too confused by the proliferation of grocery stores to go shopping for food? Are you too confused by the menu at the restaurant to know how to order? How do you eat?
We were talking about hobbyists. We're all experienced shoppers and purchasers of food, but if that menu's in another language or food you've never heard of, you'd probably be happy if it was short. Once some knowledge has set in, variety is better, and that's when I would recommend Linux
You obviously haven't tried Glade, GTK, or Tcl/tk.
GTK, TCL/TK is all good, but in VB you can simply drag the control onto a form. Designing the GUI is easier from what I've seen.
Hope your check from Microsoft was worth your time! In fact, just about every word of this paragraph is a false assumption.
How is it a false assumption? Blind freddy can see that setting up your sound card, video card or installing software is a nightmare in Linux (although granted, it's a lot better than it used to be, and I really do hope it becomes as easy as in Windows). I'm not saying this is totally a bad thing, since it's far more customisable. I'm just saying for someone doing a little bit of programming as a hobby, it's not ideal, and quite possibly not the best solution.
It was all in my 5 minute university unix course which I will include in full here (translated from dutch): Ladies and Gentlemen,
This is a unix system. When I call your name, you come forward and take the note with your name and password from me. Also take one sheet of paper from this stack beside me. It contains the explanation of how to login into the system, how to start and exit your editor and how to run Nastran.
Good luck
The rest of the course was mainly waiting untill your name was called.
My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
*shrug* Maybe it's a matter of me having spent more time developing in .Net, but I find VB.Net much easier to use than VB6. *wry grin* It could also be due to me having grounding in OOP before learning to develop in either of the VBs...
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
the reality is that I don't need VB, and think it leads to bad engineering.
I didn't say VB couldn't "be"... I think it can be.
In the real world, engineers learn how to put up bridges that last. They put time into learning whatever it takes to make engineering.
Computer scientists are the biggest bunch of whiny fucks you ever met, and want stuff either pure like Plato or easy, as if the machine should think like them. They are not users, they are software engineers. It's not too much to have an opinion that they ought to use engineering grade tools.
I don't consider VB to be an example of that.
And VB is not used for just quick and dirty program, they may all be dirty, but not quick, or small. But it can still "be"... I just don't like it, and totally reject that my opinion is unreal in some way.
Duck tape and glue guns are good too, but they don't make good engineering either.
-pyrrho
You put <> around it instead of <>, didn't you? :)
Back in the mid to late 80's I met with a dentist who had cobbled together a dental management system using DBase (forget which version). Don't remember much of it. Just that it was very functional and in use at more than 1 office. Systems like DBase and I suppose VB offer a lot of power and allow the programmer to avoid a lot of the nitty gritty which professional programmers accepted as just part of the day-to-day grind. Of course, with greater power comes greater capability to royally mess up a program. Still a lot of good came from these subject matter experts being empowered to create their own applications.
Steve
Yes, out of documentation habit.
Different websites with comment boxes!=same behaviour.
My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
Q: I wanna cook as a hobby?
A: Better stick to a microwave and TV dinners; anything more complicated than that would be WAY too deep for a hobbyist!
Q: I work on cars for a hobby?
A: You mean you only change the wiper blades and check the oil? Because, in spite of those muscle cars and lowrider jobs you see all over the custom cars shows, obviously anything requiring an actual tool of any kind will be going too far for a hobby!
Q: I paint for a hobby?
A: Only water-colors on construction paper is fit for a hobbyist! A hobbyist wouldn't be wanting to get involved in more sophisticated media.
Ohhhh, we could SO go on and on. I just don't have that much sadism - it isn't nearly as much fun stomping AC's faces into the ground while pointing out that they don't know jack-shit nor jill-turd about what they're blabbing about. A hobby, by definition, is something you do to stay busy with something you enjoy. You would know if you had one (besides being ignorant in public) that in fact a hobbyist is more likely to *enjoy* all the things you think of as "drudgery". They're DOING it for FUN, and part of that fun can be the CHALLENGE of tackling a difficult task, so that they might LEARN and GROW from it. How many "hobbyist" tic-tac-toe players do you know? Now how many hobbyist chess players? And do these chess players not devote a lot of time to the inherent complexities of the game, which is so ripe a ground for flexing their mental muscles? Do they not read books on openings and study the great games of the masters and compete in tournaments, etc yada yada?
You're not even going to the back of the class on this one, you need to get out of the school!
Sorry, XML just holds data. SOAP doesn't mean what you think it means.
Blar.