Japanese Find Robots Less Intimidating Than People

bik1979 writes "The Christmas issue of economist has an interesting article on 'why the Japanese want their robots to act more like humans'. The article says how people in japan are accepting robots into their daily life, more so than accepting other people. From the article: 'What seems to set Japan apart from other countries is that few Japanese are all that worried about the effects that hordes of robots might have on its citizens. Nobody seems prepared to ask awkward questions about how it might turn out. If this bold social experiment produces lots of isolated people, there will of course be an outlet for their loneliness: they can confide in their robot pets and partners. Only in Japan could this be thought less risky than having a compassionate Filipina drop by for a chat.'"

Comments

That one droid in KOTOR..

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the sidequests in KOTOR involved a runaway household droid whose owner had gotten a little too... attached to it, and the droid thought it unhealthy for its owner to be so attached. Will Japan turn into an entire country like in that instance?

Re:That one droid in KOTOR..

[Dr. Eggman]

awww, robots showing compassion for meat bags, how nice.

Re:That one droid in KOTOR..

[khellendros1984]

Yea...well, then we could all go to Japan, kill the robots, and tell the owners to go look for them!

Re:That one droid in KOTOR..

[roguebfl]

Sounds like Asimov's Spacer from his Robot series.

Re:That one droid in KOTOR..

[SirPavlova]

Just what I was about to say - Jander in The Robots of Dawn.

MP3 players, portable DVD players, now robots.

[Mr. Freeman]

It seems every electronic gadget is "going to isolate us from every other human being on the planet".
The japanese in particular seem to have made large strides in the field of robotics, it makes sense that they would be the first to accept them into their lives.

As for why, I think it's two factors.
1. They probably understand what robots are better than the general populace of America. People are less afraid of what they understand.
2. The "anonymous internet effect" as I call it. A robot isn't a human, it doesn't have emotions, it won't get pissed off if you insult it/don't remember its birthday/whatever.

Re:MP3 players, portable DVD players, now robots.

[Ruff_ilb]

'It seems every electronic gadget is "going to isolate us from every other human being on the planet".'

And of course, these words are heard over what?

The TV.
The Radio.
Online News Sites.

All three are 'electronic gadgets' (TV's, Radios, Computers), perhaps the biggest and most widespread of them all. And their main purpose is to do what?

Allow people to communicate.

If it becomes: Radio, TV, Internet, Robots, Chronologically speaking, then robots are sure to be accepted into our lives. Robots are quite different from the above three, but I'm just showing that the people who assume new gadgets are "going to isolate us from every other human being on the planet" are short-sighted at best. Also, who knows what robot tech will expand to eventually. Who knows, they might become a prime force in communications, or anything else for that matter.

~Ruff_ilb

P.S. - Parent poster, I know you don't take the above stance "going to isolate us from every other human being on the planet", so I'm not trying to troll! =)

Re:MP3 players, portable DVD players, now robots.

[kamapuaa]

1. They probably understand what robots are better than the general populace of America. People are less afraid of what they understand.

And alternatively, Japanese people are scared of minorities and foreigners, to the extent that police will arrest and check for the papers of people just for looking foreign, or speaking in a foreign language. Literally any crime is blamed on foreigners. The real story is, why is Japan more willing to spend billions of dollars for absurd pie-in-the-sky visions of robots becoming your friend, and unwilling to grant citizenship to other ethnicities, to increase the labor force and make up for a shrinking population?

Anyway everybody loves R2D2 & wanted the cool "Rocky 3" robot, I think Slashdot posters exaggerate the fear.

Re:MP3 players, portable DVD players, now robots.

[Mr. Slippery]

And alternatively, Japanese people are scared of minorities and foreigners, to the extent that police will arrest and check for the papers of people just for looking foreign, or speaking in a foreign language. Literally any crime is blamed on foreigners.

Japan is schizophenic about foreigners.

A lot of Japanese women seek out gaijin (at least Caucasian) boyfriends, and most of the Japanese people I've met in my brief stays were very friendly. On the other hand, some merchants will pretend not to even hear requests from foreign customers (even if such customers are attempting to use their phrasebook Nihongo), drunk old guys will yell at you, and you're definitely not treated equally by the police. I think being a white guy in Japan may be in some small way like being a black guy in the U.S. - to some degee you're automatically "cool" in a fashion sense, while at the same time you're likely to encounter discrimination. (Before any PC cops bash me, let me point out that an African-American friend of mine suggested the comparison.)

The real story is, why is Japan more willing to spend billions of dollars for absurd pie-in-the-sky visions of robots becoming your friend, and unwilling to grant citizenship to other ethnicities, to increase the labor force and make up for a shrinking population?

Many of the stories on robots in Japan I've seen have talked about them caring for the elderly - the age group most likely to harbot racist and xenopobic thoughts. (Though again, I met some wonderful, friendly elderly Japanese; but when I did encounter hostility, it was almost always from someone at least I would guess in their late 50s.)

But on top of that, even with a shrinking population population Japan is tremendously crowded. A lower population with Mr. Robotos, who only take up a closet, instead of some gaijin workers who takes up whole apartments, could be very appealing.

Re:MP3 players, portable DVD players, now robots.

[Jasin Natael]

The real story is, why is Japan more willing to spend billions of dollars for absurd pie-in-the-sky visions of robots becoming your friend, and unwilling to grant citizenship to other ethnicities, to increase the labor force and make up for a shrinking population?

Ethnocentrism?

This is a problem that it literally takes several generations to overcome. You can see progress; This isn't an area where it's easy to "catch-up" to the ideals of another group. The younger generation, while they welcome foreigners, still seem very aware of, and interested in, everyone's ethnicity. If you are naturalized in Japan, you have to take a Japanese name. And even if you do, you often will be ostracized if you try to write it with ideographs.

I had a friend at University whose mother is Japanese and her father is from the US. Her name is Japanese and she was born in Japan, but she was literally disciplined in school if she wrote her name in anything but Katakana (the angular phonetic alphabet used for foreign words).

It still happens in the US, too, but it's on the decline. I know a guy whose grandfather used to beat him if he used anything except for racial epithets when referring to African-Americans. And this was only 10 years ago.

Jasin Natael

Re:MP3 players, portable DVD players, now robots.

[fbjon]

Japan is schizophenic about foreigners.

So is everybody else, but no-one wants to admit it because it would be "racist". Bah, humbug!

Re:MP3 players, portable DVD players, now robots.

[WaterBreath]

For as much as we communicate these days, I think the "real fear" was of a physical isolation, not a social isolation. A physical isolation carries a very real threat, because if you never form phyisical relationships, it's tough to propogate your genetic material. And I wouldn't exactly say that phones, TV, the internet, or video games, have encouraged physical relationships. Granted, they haven't exactly lead to the death of marriage or anything like that. The human population in general has always had a certain proportion of people who tend toward hermitage. They're not taking advantage of communication technologies, so they largely remain unaffected.

What these technologies do, which people worry about, is allow people who want social interaction, but also want a to maintain a physical distance, to have it both ways, which was difficult if not impossible in the past. So we have a growing population of people who are less likely to contribute to the gene pool of future generations. But the real question is... Will we miss them?

The tendency to physical isolation by way of technology is very unlikely to lead to the death of civilization, as some people seem to fear it might. Because it's not likely to sweep over the whole human race. In general, it's built-in that we need physical closeness with people. But these technologies just might help "cull the herd". We may lose some who would otherwise contribute to the gene pool. But it's arguable whether people who dislike physical closeness are really benefiting the human gene pool at all to begin with.

Re:MP3 players, portable DVD players, now robots.

[MBGMorden]

[quote]It still happens in the US, too, but it's on the decline. I know a guy whose grandfather used to beat him if he used anything except for racial epithets when referring to African-Americans. And this was only 10 years ago.[/quote]

I've not heard of anything that recent, but I can attest to the fact that this type of thing does happen. One of the older guys that I know worked in their family store and a black customer came in and asked something. The guy (about 10 at the time) responded with a "Yes sir." His father then proceeded to beat him for saying "sir" to a black man. This was about 35 years ago, but it is a bit startling.

Re:MP3 players, portable DVD players, now robots.

[PsiPsiStar]

Don't you think it's a little deeper? Japanese write stories about mobile suits and artificial intelligences being used by humans to fight aliens. Americans write stories about humans fighting against machines.

In American, machines are the enemy ever since John Henry. In Japan, they are a logical extension of humanity.

I wonder if it has anything to do with different labor relations in the two countries.

Re:MP3 players, portable DVD players, now robots.

[PsiPsiStar]

But it's arguable whether people who dislike physical closeness are really benefiting the human gene pool at all to begin with.

Okay, so make the argument. I've known some brilliant people who were agorophobic or otherwise disinclined to social interaction.

People who like 'physical closeness' are more likely to be philanderers and rapists, while the shy quiet folks I've known are more likely to remain faithful simply because they don't have such an overpowering need for social interaction.

I don't know where you get the 'antisocial = inferior' equation. Of course, evolution is not a moral good or evil. A trait can be socially good (such as fidelity) and still be disadvantageous.

Re:MP3 players, portable DVD players, now robots.

[pipingguy]

robots are better than the general populace of America

I agree!

Re:MP3 players, portable DVD players, now robots.

[WaterBreath]

When I said "people who dislike physical closeness", I was refering to extreme cases, such as people who have a phobia of touching others, or people who just psychological uncomfortable with physical closeness.

I'm not talking about shy people, because that's generally social in origin (though it may cause physical "symptoms").

Like any trait, there's a balance to be struck. People who are afraid of or dislike physical closeness can have trouble in life. People who like it a little too much can also have and/or cause trouble.

But the point I was getting at is that people who isolate themselves physically, even if not socially, are almost by definition not contributing to the gene pool. Not saying they're detrimental. Just that they are not physically contributing. It's awfully tough to spread your genes if you never let a person get within 10 feet of you.

On a side note:

A trait can be socially good (such as fidelity) and still be disadvantageous.

There are multiple scopes to look at when considering evolutionary "pressures" and "forces". Fidelity is not probably genetically advantageous to the individual in a population that doesn't, as a whole, value fidelity very much. But it can be very advantageous to the population as a whole to value fidelity in general. Especially if gestation is long and the development to sexual maturity is slow, such as in humans, fidelity can ensure that young are raised properly into functional adults, with properly cultivated and encouraged instincts, that are then able to continue the species. So the social advantage of fidelity is not just a social advantage to the individual, it is a genetic advantage to the species that, in the case of humans (usually), overriddes an opposing genetic advantage to the individual.

It may even be that the presence and flourishing of both opposing strategies is, in general, a benefit to the human species. Individual "promiscuity" probably promotes a certain amount of genetic variation and potential for further evolution among a certain proportion of the population. While the sub-population that values fidelity presents a safeguard for the species as a whole, against dramatic effects of a "bad" mutation, disease, etc. among the promiscuous sub-population. And the natural intermixing of the two prevents the species from splitting into two separate, more vulnerable, species with wildly different survival strategies.

In fact, even at the level of the animal kingdom in general we can see such factors. The animal kingdom is amazingly diversified. Why have just a few hundred thousand (wild estimate) sharks when the ocean can support billions of smaller fish? Because such diversification ensures that animal life in general will survive even if one specific type of environment or resource is totally wiped out. It also allows a higher number of individuals (and hence a better statistical chance of continuance/survival), while circumventing large-scale problems of resource competition. Fish eat different things than birds, and so they are ecologically separated. Not completely, but enough that they don't compete for food, and they don't depend on the same food sources to endure. If worms and bugs started to die out, birds would probably go too (of course there would be much bigger problems as well), but the majority of fish would be fairly safe. So even if the world was all fish and birds, that's safer for animal life in general than having just fish or just birds.

Evolution is simple term for an amazingly complex emergent phenomenon, which at it's roots builds right out of statistical thermodynamics. The oversimplification of evolution for the pallate of Joe Bagodonuts, while spurred by the same respectable initiatives behind the proliferation of any scientific information into the public awareness, has had the typical side effect of deluding people into thinking they understand it fully when in actuality they know virtually nothing about it. As with relativity or quantum mechanics, better than 99% of the population has no business attempting to either refute or explain evolution.

America could learn something from Japan

[20th Century Boy]

Why are we so afraid of robots when we have perfectly good safeguards against the possible setbacks?

just wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

wait until the robots are able to give pookake facials... then the robots will really take the country by storm

Re:just wait...

[TimothyTimothyTimoth]

You haven't seen enough Japanese p0rn...

And here's why....

[theheff]

Robots don't have sex organs. Solves a lot of problems, really. As long as the programmers keep it that way...

Re:And here's why....

[harryseldon]

You obviously have a defective robot.

Re:And here's why....

[Spy der Mann]

You obviously have a defective robot.

Chiiiii?

Re:And here's why....

[User 956]

You obviously have a defective robot.

You mean it being ten feet tall and breathing fire is a defect?

damn.

Remember the Scene...

[Ruff_ilb]

In "I Robot" (The movie) where the robot's running off with someone's purse? (The cynical detective thinks he's stealing it - he's actually returning it to its owner)

Well EVERY SINGLE DAY we have the equivalent of this happening, only with credit card transactions, paypal, stock exchanges, etc.

If this analogy is off topic: What I mean to say is that the robots that we're capable of producing now are simply code in motion. Sure, very complex code, but still, they're programmed. They're not to a level of intelligence and mass production where we worry about having to welcome our new robot overlords, and I doubt they'll even need anything as complex as Asimov's 'Three Laws' for a VERY long time.

We depend on code in our computers every day to carry out tasks, just as I'm depending on it now to get this comment up on slashdot - the robot equivalent would be a very quick messenger robot. Again, code in motion. The Japanese are wise to accept robots as just this, instead of cross-applying way too many bad science-fiction movies that couldn't be realizable today even if a malevolent force WAS trying to get robots to take over the world.

~Ruff_ilb

(P.S. It's all a lie! THEY made me type it!)

Re:Remember the Scene...

[Niten]

Someone give this man some Karma.

Re:Remember the Scene...

[slyguy135]

You're technically right, but there's one difference between robots and plain code: robots are physical entities, and can thus interact with us on a physical basis, e.g. by hitting us. A maliciously programmed robot, and we'll wish we could go back to the days when the only technology-related security problems we had were viruses and hacking.

Re:Remember the Scene...

[Ruff_ilb]

This is obviously true, and this is where restraint and common sense come in to play. Code can't smack you in the face if you do a poor job of writing it (Although this might do for some better programmers ;) ), but I'm sure that any sort of robot with the force to kill someone will have INSANE amounts of testing required, especially at first.

Re:Remember the Scene...

[Deus Acerbus]

Even if code isn't a physical entity, the real world and cyberspace are becoming more and more intertwined. Granted, I still doubt sentient malicious code is anywhere in our immediate future, but changes to records on computer systems can effect real-world problems for someone.

Re:Remember the Scene...

[vistic]

And the Therac-25 incident was just code in motion as well.

Remember, just because you coded it, doesn't mean it will behave predictably or reliably. Software crashes all the time. Keep in mind that a robot could also be vulnerable to a virus or attack.

I do agree though that true Artifical Intelligence is not a worry at this point, and won't be for a long long time. I personally believe that we will never get to true AI due to physical limitations on how complex we can make a processor. I think we will hit a wall first.

But yeah, at least if just software crashes, no one is directly physically injured. The danger is when software is linked to machinery (like the Therac-25). Imagine a heavy steel robot having a glitch as it's walking down the street that causes it's arm to suddenly swing out and smack someone in the skull with an arm of steel. Not pretty.

-Corby

Of course

[Crashmarik]

Whens the last time you had a robot screw you over ?

Re:Of course

[Inaffect]

Never been on IRC I take it?

Re:Of course

[Guppy06]

Well, I've got this Nigerian robot that keeps on emailing me...

WE NEED ARTICLE MODERATION!

[Anonymous Coward]

More and more I find that slashdot "articles" are little more than links to badly hyped crap in other journals that are insulting to everyone's intelligence.

The Japanese like robots more than people. Right. Please this is insulting to the Japanese and to slashdotters.

WE NEED ARTICLE MODERATION so that we can stop this spate of crap articles.

I'm posting anonymous because every time I point out the obvious, that slashdot has become super lame, I'm modded "troll".

But damn it, I can remember when slashdot wasn't a pit of stupidity. WE NEED ARTICLE MODERATION!

Re:WE NEED ARTICLE MODERATION!

[12212012]

The past week has been my first time on Slashdot in years, so I can't really speak to trends in article quality. Maybe you have a point of which I'm not aware.

I agree with you that it's quite ridiculous for this article to put it that "the Japanese like robots more than they like people". However, I still think this article raises interesting philosophical questions; so I, personally, wouldn't turn my thumb down at it.

Re:WE NEED ARTICLE MODERATION!

[jqstm]

I think it's ok if articles are lame, as long as the slashdot discussion is good. Sometimes a lame article brings up an interesting topic.

Re:WE NEED ARTICLE MODERATION!

[Hosiah]

I agree, but I don't really see that as likely. You know, when I look for perfection, I don't think of Slashdot. I take the whole wide Internet and sift out the parts I like. Slashdot is only Slashdot. There's a limit to how perfect they can make it.

Re:WE NEED ARTICLE MODERATION!

[csplinter]

When I read, "Japanese like robots more than people" I thought they were saying the Japanese arn't people like you and me. lol.

Re:WE NEED ARTICLE MODERATION!

[rgoldste]

First off, your statement that "the Japanese like robots more than people" is a straw man. The article actually suggests: because of complex and stringent social norms in Japan, the Japanese find it easier to interact with robots as those complex social rules don't apply. This is pretty analogous to why many westerners enjoy going to a bar and sipping beers with buddies more than going to a black tie affair with VIPs and top shelf liquor--don't have to worry about complex social relationships, don't have to watch what you say, don't have to be concerned about embarassment, etc.

TFA notes an empirical finding that Japanese make more eye contact with robots than with people (admittedly, the strength of this evidence is hard to assess). Perhaps this article does reinforce stereotypes, but fear of stereotypes should not blind us to reality. Furthermore, there's a strong argument that stereotypes are a crude and often inaccurate shortcut to explain people different than you. Since this article provides actual insight and knowledge into another culture, it fights stereotyping and promotes cultural understanding.

Re:WE NEED ARTICLE MODERATION!

[CagedBear]

WE NEED ARTICLE MODERATION!

Moderation is tedious. Perhaps if the editors had a robot...

Re:WE NEED ARTICLE MODERATION!

[Tony-A]

Now you know why lots of us just read the comments.
If there's anything interesting or useful that should have been in the article, it's probably in the comments.
If the article is actually worth reading, that too is probably in the comments.

there is a switch

[Gravis Zero]

see... people arent afraid of robots because you can turn them off or reprogram them. if the situation gets deperate, you can "kill" them because they arent actually people or animals. i look forward to setting fire to my robot friends. i also find it amusing that the article says "[MARIE] is inexpensive." ill buy one! :)

Re:there is a switch

[gardyloo]

people arent afraid of robots because you can turn them off or reprogram them. if the situation gets deperate, you can "kill" them because they arent actually people or animals.

      Oh, good. I don't have to be afraid of jetliners or cars or blenders any more!

Re:there is a switch

[jacen_sunstrider]

Blenders?

Re:there is a switch

[rts008]

Maybe he ment Benders? "Kill all humans!"

Re:Slightly to the West

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia, jokes plead to go just one damn day without YOU!!!

Cause:Effect::Invent::Restrict

[SammysIsland]

Us humans have such a knack for discovering new, wonderful technologies and then spending mountains of energy on resricting the use of them. It's sad really.

Re:Slightly to the West

[Drooling Iguana]

In Soviet Russia, joke goes without YOU!

Better things to worry about

[servognome]

'What seems to set Japan apart from other countries is that few Japanese are all that worried about the effects that hordes of robots might have on its citizens.

Maybe because they are too busy dealing with Godzilla, Mothra, and all those other giant radioactive monsters.

Re:Better things to worry about

[Quirk]

Maybe because they are too busy dealing with Godzilla, Mothra, and all those other giant radioactive monsters.

Maybe because they are too busy dealing with Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and all those other giant radioactive monstrosities.

Japanese lack social skills

[Neo-Rio-101]

You have to keep in mind that there are A LOT of socially inept people in Japan. The thing is that wile there is little crime or conflict in Japanese society - it all happens under the radar. When a Japanese person does not like you, they don't get angry at you and start an argument. Instead, they just shut you out and ignore you. For example:- Two coworkers in my department had a disagreement and instead of work through it like normal adults they sent hate mail to each other whilst they sat quiety in seats next to each other... pretending the other person didn't exist.

The thing is, when the Japanese get pissed, you don't get a second chance - and they get pissed and upset SO easily it is incredibly frustrating. And they will not forgive you. They will just shut you out and pretend that you no longer exist. Problems happens when this happens on a large scale while society is basically stepping on each other - one little tiff and nobody speaks to each other ever again.

A robot is forced to like you, be tolerant of you, do what you want, and keep smiling back. Kinda why English teaching is popular here - not so much for the English but because the Japanese want top learn social interaction skills and the Japanese are too busy ignoring each other to ever develop those.

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[Comatose51]

"You have to keep in mind that there are A LOT of socially inept people in Japan. "

I find that rather hard to believe. It's more likely that their social norms and rules work differently than ours. It might appear inept to us but it's quite normal for them. In fact, a lot of what you just described also applies to the Chinese, which is my heritage.

There are cultures other than us who tend to be non-confrontational and indirect. There are advantages and disadvantages to that. Being indirect means problems are harder and takes longer to solve, especially when it's an issue of miscommunication. On ther other hand, both parties always have the options of backing down without losing too much face and suffering embarassment. Just observe a politician at work during an interview to see how this works. Also, escalation tend to be slower when you're indirect. Going back to your example, not speaking to someone is less likely to lead to physical violence than calling him names. I don't know the specifics of your experience but what might appear to insignificant to you might mean a lot to other people. For example, not taking off your shoes in a Chinese household goes beyond cleanliness and soiling their carpet. It implies that you think their house is not clean enough for you to walk on--the same reason you won't walk barefeet out on the streets.

If you look at things from the Chinese or Japanese perspective, the typical American appears rude, bullying, and uncompromising (at least that's what my parents accuse me of when I argue with them).

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[rolfwind]

Is you situation atypical or perhaps biased by a small sample size of those you know? I don't know, it seems to go for a stereotype for an entire people.

Anyway, here is a blog from a American teacher in Japan, it's funny (and insightful) reading of over there:

http://outpostnine.com/editorials/teacher.html

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[Comatose51]

Sorry about the poor grammar in my post. It's late.

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[Susan In Oz]

Having worked for the Japanese in a senior management position, learned a bit of the language, and made quite a study of them, this comment has some validity but is off in other ways. It is incredibly difficult and stressful for Japanese to interact with each other. Their language requires that you make a decision about power and relataive status to say anything. It is far more complicated than "polite" versus "not as polite". It is also a shame based culture, not a guilt culture. How you appear to others is more important, generally speaking, than any standard of morality. That's why Japanese kill themselves when they are in the middle of a scandal. Being held in low esteem is far far more wreching for them than for us. But as the writer pointed out, they do hold grudges and can be incredibly, unimaginably nasty and petty if you offend them. So that is why robots would be easier. They are obedient, they can be programmed to give pleasant responses, they don't care what form of address you use with them. Some people like animals better than their fellow humans. The Japanese have not been as big on pets as Americans, due to their generally cramped housing, so for them, a robot could well be "man's best friend".

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[earthstar]

True.I once saw a story in BBC - Japanese youth send SMS love messages to artificial/robot girls - because they are very shy to talk to girls.!
I just thought "Strange world".

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[JanneM]

Yep, there are socially inept people in Japan. Yep, they are especially frequent in technical and academic fields.

And of course, that is true for any society. Also, if you're a non-Japanese - and especially if you're the kind of person that reads and comments on /. - the Japanese people you're most likely to run into are those working in technical and academic fields.

I've lived here for some time now, and I find this to have no more more basis in fact here than anywhere else. After seeing supposedly always composed and polite Japanese scream, shout, argue and fight often enough, I've consigned this stereotype to just another myth. It's just like the sterotype of Americans as loud, shallow and selfish - such people certainly exist but isn't really the societal norm.

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[Gashu]

The thing is, when the Japanese get pissed, you don't get a second chance - and they get pissed and upset SO easily it is incredibly frustrating. And they will not forgive you. They will just shut you out and pretend that you no longer exist. Problems happens when this happens on a large scale while society is basically stepping on each other - one little tiff and nobody speaks to each other ever again.

Well, I'm Japanese. but not do I. I'll just search for why this guy pissed, if there is a worthful reason, I'll hahave considering that curcumstance. And if there's no reason, I'll just say simple but most powerfull F words from my F words dictionary.

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[Fred Ferrigno]

For example, not taking off your shoes in a Chinese household goes beyond cleanliness and soiling their carpet. It implies that you think their house is not clean enough for you to walk on--the same reason you won't walk barefeet out on the streets.

It implies to me that it's a big effort to take off and put on my shoes (I have things called shoelaces) and I don't expect to be in your house long enough to warrant such effort. Gah.

I really hate that tradition -- especially when I'm 20 steps into the house before I notice the huge pile of shoes next to the door. I've always felt it's a strange thing to ask of a guest. In fact it's almost insulting in the opposite way, as if I'm not clean enough to come into your house.

It's my opinion that floors are meant to be walked on. In the course of their lifetime, they will get dirty and eventually will need to be replaced. You can only go so far protecting them before it's not worth the effort to do so. The same goes for the silly plastic covers on furniture. Why have such things if you can't enjoy them?

Wow, that was really off topic. Oh well.

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[Fred Ferrigno]

It implies to me that it's a big effort to take off and put on my shoes (I have things called shoelaces) and I don't expect to be in your house long enough to warrant such effort. Gah.

Oh, and heaven forbid they put a CHAIR next to the big pile of shoes so I don't have to bend over and risk toppling myself TWICE in the period of my visit. Often I end up going outside to sit on the front step to take off my shoes -- usually dirting my socks (and therefore your carpet) in the process.

AAAAAAAAAAHHH I really hate it. Sorry.

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[DJCF]

Wow. Comming back to my home country (England), I find the lack of show removal to be very, very annoying -- though I'm not insulted, because it's culture. Soil and mud, clean carpets, hello? (Asian polished floors are actually much easier to clean of dust than English carpets of mud!)

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[DNS-and-BIND]

Give me carpet anyday. Polished floors are always getting scraped up by something or other, and they're ice-cold in winter. Perhaps that has more to do with the total lack of scary foreign concepts such as "insulation" and "central heating".

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[walkie]

Come on moderators. 5 Interesting for a comment absent of anything but sweeping generalizations?

The thing is, when the Japanese get pissed, you don't get a second chance - and they get pissed and upset SO easily it is incredibly frustrating. And they will not forgive you.

This kind of shit makes me sick. And the fact that others found it "interesting" boggles my mind.

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[master_p]

The Japanese have 14 words for saying 'thank you' (if I recall correctly) depending on the social position of the person they are addressing. That alone shows how incredibly structured is the Japanese society...and that is a sign of a militaristic society, no matter how it is dressed up. 50 centuries of militaristic organization can not easily be forgotten, especially in one or two centuries. Robots make that transition easier.

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[fbjon]

If you walk with shoes indoors, you'll introduce sand, which is Not Nice. Taking off shoes when entering someone's home is not in any way an exclusively Japanese cutom either, in Finland we do exactly the same. The difference is only that we don't have a specially marked area for it, except for shoe stands, and in how strictly the policy is enforced, but usually, people prefer to take shoes off. Exceptions are: the floor is really dirty already or dangerous in some way (glass, spikes, building materials), just forgot the keys on the table so you run and get them, and so on. Since we sit on the floor less, the need is less, otherwise it's the same. In Japan, however, the floor can be used in more ways than just standing on, which is smart usage of living space.

What do Americans do with their shoes anyway?

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[fbjon]

I find it really amusing that /.-ers are pointing out the "socially inept people in Japan". :)

Well, it can certainly be interpreted as inept in a Western way, but I think the ineptitude is relative. If a culture behaves in a certain way, it's part of the accepted culture, and there doesn't have to be anything strange with it. It's only strange when contrasted with a different culture.

Sometimes, I feel that people speak of Japan after having watched a few documentaries, or a boatload of anime episodes. Not to say that it's worthless, quite the contrary, but I've certainly seen several wildly exaggerated and even sensationalist documentaries, not to mention exaggerated Anime!

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[Crizp]

Since Americans generally have shoes on inside and out, I'd imagine their houses must smell really bad when every family member take their shoes off at night.

I've always considered the Japanese/Chinese custom as very sensible, but here in Norway we do as the Fins, too - every house generally has a hallway in which to hang your coat and put your shoes.

It keeps the floor and carpets clean. Due to the changing seasons we also have good insulation, carpets - or even heated floors in most new houses. No need for shoes inside to stay warm.

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[icydog]

Ok, I'm Chinese and thus I'm supposed to hate Japs, but what you wrote is just ridiculous. What makes you think Japan has more socially inept people than the US? What enables you to make broad, sweeping generalizations like this?

When a Japanese person does not like you, they don't get angry at you and start an argument. Instead, they just shut you out and ignore you. For example:- Two coworkers in my department had a disagreement and instead of work through it like normal adults they sent hate mail to each other whilst they sat quiety in seats next to each other... pretending the other person didn't exist.

So... let's see. They (1) don't get angry (2) don't start an argument and (3) pretend the other doesn't exist. Yet they send hate mail to each other, which contradicts all three. Which am I supposed to believe?

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[Garabito]

This kind of shit makes me sick. And the fact that others found it "interesting" boggles my mind.

Yes, you're so pissed and upset that parent poster has no second chance. And you won't forgive him.

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[fbjon]

There's a short section on shoe customs in wikipedia as per usual, but would any American like to enlighten the rest of us on footwear customs in the USA?

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[fbjon]

Yes, workplaces tend to have different customs. Usually nothing stops you from taking your shoes off when at your desk, however.

Anyway, back to the point: I can't fathom a custom where you wear outside shoes inside. If you wear shoes inside on a daily basis, you should get shoes for the inside (lightweight, open and non-sweaty). I can certainly understand that bare feet are a disease vector for people who don't take off their shoes during the day!

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[Ohreally_factor]

Yes, workplaces tend to have different customs. Usually nothing stops you from taking your shoes off when at your desk, however.

Unless your in a cube farm and the smell of fritos bothers your co-workers.

Re:Japanese lack social skills

[Ohreally_factor]

Who are you calling a Jap, you Chink? =) (For some reason I got called "Chink" a lot growing up. I hope no one called you a Jap.)

If nothing else, this slashdot story (the one at the top of the page) and many of the ensuing comments show how ignorant, racist, ethnocentric and xenophobic many of our slashdotters are.

But you know what I found disgusting? The last sentence of the story:

Only in Japan could this be thought less risky than having a compassionate Filipina drop by for a chat.

WTF? I'm going to stop reading the comments after this post. Some of the people here are just pathetic.

Re:compassionate Filipina?

[misanthrope101]

compassionate Filipina? What the hell does that mean in this context? Please explain. I don't get it. How is it related to Japanese and robots?

Print comment, show to heterosexual male, ask for explanation, and you will understand. You're either female, or gay. If you're Filipina, then email me directly and I will explain in a sensitive, kind, faithful, strong, stable, caring way.

Population Density

[wmajik]

I think only a trained sociologist will probably have a good idea on the link between the Japanese and their fascination (or in this case, level of comfort) with robots.

That said though, for anyone familiar with Japan or having lived there before, those that live in the city have a very, very different way of life than in places like the United States. The pace of life is faster, the population density is higher and there is a generally an absurd amount of strangers that you pass by on a daily basis. The fast, brisk level of interaction required to perform your daily tasks with others is just an automated response after awhile. It's no surprise to me that Japan is the leader in automation, simply due to this constant barrage of hit-and-run interaction.

I would venture that the Japanese have simply become accustom to automated systems and technology, having evolved around the idea of using non-human tools to help them throughout the day. If you asked another person in a fast paced city such as New York or LA versus a slower city like Austin or Memphis on their opinion toward robots, I would imagine you get a correlation between pace of life and comfort level with robots (or automation).

My 0.02 hypothesis at least.

Re:Population Density

[WilliamCotton]

Living in New York City, I would tend to say that most people there wouldn't be in to robot companions. It's a very social city. I know the guy by the train who sells me coffee in the morning, I know the guy at the deli by work who makes my sandwiches, I know the people in my building and a few down the block as well. That's in Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn, a predominately black neighborhood, and even in white-bred yuppie Manhattan I've got some friends who live in Tribeca and run an Internet company and they're good pals with the people in their building, their super, and a bunch of other people in the neighborhood. New York is fast paced, but people don't shy away from social interaction. Someone is going to tell you that you're being a jerk when you don't give up a seat for an old lady or hold the door for someone. You'll get a big genuine smile if you do it instinctively. Make a robot that you can have a heated argument on the street with and will still leave you with a parting from-the-heart remark like "Have a good one", and you might have some prospective Gotham customers.

Re:Population Density

[JanneM]

Make a robot that you can have a heated argument on the street with and will still leave you with a parting from-the-heart remark like "Have a good one", and you might have some prospective Gotham customers.

You know, one of the big draws for me with the idea of automated service is that when I don't want to, I'm not forced to be social. The parent poster has a serious point - seing hundreds of people at all times can become pretty draining, and the option of buying a coffee, or lunch, or a paper without having to interact with anyone can be an enormous relief.

Oh, and if I never, ever, hear any variation of "have a good day" - formulaic and habitual, uttered just because the employee manual requires it - ever again, I will consider my life to have been well lived, all considered. That alone os reason enough to look forward to the march towards automated service.

Dear Santa

[Josh teh Jenius]

Dear Santa, I have been very good this year. I worked hard, paid (most of) my bills, and didn't strangle anyone, even though they deserved it. Please bring me a Luck Liu bot this Christmas. I'll promise to walk her twice a day and pet her all the time. P.S. Please hurry, I got the munchies and these cookies won't last too much longer. Love, Josh

You had me...

[Weaselmancer]

...and I was with you 100%, right up to the "compassionate Filipina" bit. Where the hell did that come from?

Re:You had me...

[mpaque]

Well, you would have had to read the article. And since this IS SlashDot...

Re:You had me...

[kingturkey]

When I got to that bit I too was confused. I had a thought about mail order brides but it didn't really make much sense. I then read the article and it makes perfect sense! Amazing what reading TFA does.

Re:You had me...

[earthbound kid]

Cost of developing a thinking robot: Billions, perhaps trillions, of yen.

Cost of opening Japanese borders to foreigners: Zero yen. Oh yeah, and society will have to open up a little too.

As you can see, it's inevitable that the Japanese develop robots. The cost of not doing so is too high for the Japanese populous to bear, or even contemplate. Seriously, the Japanese are nice people and all, but they really insist on dividing the world into "Japan" and "everybody else" in a way that's not healthy at all. I like Japan, but they're going to have make some changes. On their current path, they're either going to end up like Europe, with a bunch of isolated and pissed off foreigners living inside their borders or like techno-Europe, with a bunch of isolated and pissed off robots living inside their borders. Or, heaven forbid, they could follow the US/Canadian model and integrate foreigners into their society, instead of isolating them and maybe the people would think of themselves as Japanese. But they might not have black hair, so scratch that idea.

Re:You had me...

[ecloud]

I don't get it either; can somebody explain why Filipinos are more compassionate than other people?

Re:You had me...

[Snaller]

...and I was with you 100%, right up to the "compassionate Filipina" bit. Where the hell did that come from?

As they say around here RTFA. They are starting to need people since the japanese are not having enough children, and a lot of other countries would like to come in - like people from the philipines, but the Japanese don't want strangers in - which is why they prefer to build robots. They start by mentioning a filipina nurse (or something like that) but the old people don't feel comfortable with such a creature, they probably would with a robot.

Re:You had me...

[Darkman, Walkin Dude]

they're either going to end up like Europe, with a bunch of isolated and pissed off foreigners living inside their borders

A friend of mine recently returned from an extended stay in the US, I think Boston... he had a lot of stories to tell, but one that caught my attention with regard to this comment was a place called Martin Luther King boulevard (?). He said that's one place where white people don't go. There are many isolated ghettoes and racial divisions in America, so I really wouldn't start holding up the US as a poster child for some kind of cultural utopia.

I assume by your comment also that you are referring to the recent riots in France. I should point out that France is not Europe, nor is Europe a single nation. Which means the EU is the single largest effort to integrate different cultures and nationalities the world has ever seen, with open borders and ostensibly free trade. In my experience, people in Europe tend to treat foreigners warily at first, but still treat them as individuals, to be accepted or rejected on their individual merits.

My own country, Ireland, has seen a massive (and I mean massive) influx of foreign nationals in the last few (4) years, and after a few initial teething problems, foreigners are getting houses next door to Irish people, driving taxis, and teaching in our schools. They are learning the language and joining the culture. One notable incident was when a gentleman down at the post office, upon seeing the large number of black people in the queue, started yelling about foreigners and their ills. The entire staff of the post office as one got up from their posts and left for a few hours, in protest. And this is the main post office for a small city.

Still, you are right about the Japanese.

Re:You had me...

[khallow]

Arguments like this merely betray your ignorance. Obviously, if Japan is willing to invest in robots rather than opening borders to immigrants, then they have a different opinion than you on the relative costs and benefits of robotics versus immigration. I wonder why you ignore the cultural changes that will come from replacing a shrinking population of Japanese with a growing population of non-Japanese, or that the Japanese might value what would disappear.

Re:You had me...

[earthbound kid]

I would say that the US failed to integrate blacks hundreds of years ago (and no wonder, they were forced against their will, etc.), and we're still paying the price today. So, yes, there were and are problems with black integration. However, there aren't many problems to speak of concerning the integration of Irish, Eastern Europeans, Italians, East Asians, Indians, Hispanics, etc. in America today. You said America has an Islamic problem, but I don't see any evidence of that. The only Islamics that have caused problems in the US have been African-Americans who have converted to Islam, like the DC snipers. But, I already admitted America had a problem with black integration going back hundreds of years, so I don't think that counts as an Islamic problem, just a continuation of the failure of black integration. However, the problem is getting better with time. That you list MLK is bizarre, by the way. He was a proponent of peaceful integration, and probably saved America of untold strife. We should all hope that an Islamic MLK stands up in Europe and calms things there.

Re:You had me...

[Darkman, Walkin Dude]

I generally don't respond to trolls, but this is like shooting fish in a barrel..

Well, with an entire four year's history of immigration

Yup, and we have still achieved more than America has in four hundred. Maybe you would like to take lessons?

almost as long as Ireland's alliance with the Nazi government

Ireland never had an alliance with the nazis, as an alliance would indicate mutual military operations and shared resources. Italy had an alliance. Ireland had neutrality. I realise that being probably American, you might have to look that one up (note, its not under pinko, french or commie), but its worth the effort.

Perhaps they can start by arranging prestigious jobs driving taxis, which you seem to believe is a model of economic integration.

Taxi drivers pull down 50k a year here, at least. Whats that, about 100k USD, or thereabouts... Maybe you might consider coming over to try it out? I know I could use a driver. Do, I'll get you a work visa.

I understand there's some ethnic strife there

Good to see that your understanding is on a par with the rest of your diatribe. Its religious and political strife, nothing to do with race. Do yourself a favour and google for "plantations" "northern ireland" and "bloody sunday". I doubt your little fat fingers can manage to hit the appropriate keys, but I couldn't be bothered to provide a link. And besides, its funny.

What a fucking laugh.

Well I know I got a good chuckle out of you. Grow some balls, sign in, and take your karma like a man. I dare you.

Re:You had me...

[Weaselmancer]

Well I know I got a good chuckle out of you. Grow some balls, sign in, and take your karma like a man. I dare you.

I'm electing myself unofficial ambassador from the USA on this one. Sorry 'bout this guy. In my newly elected position, I'd like to say the United States officially apologizes for him and people like him.

You see, we're at a really strange point in our history.

We've fought a dozen or so major wars and done pretty well. Up until recently, war was something that you go and do, not something that happens to you. When we went to war, we would ship out. War never happened here.

But a few years ago, it did.

Enemies of my country wiped out a few blocks in NYC. We fought Hitler, the Kaiser, and the Imperial Japanese Navy and never once had so much as a single inch of continental US soil touched. Then...NYC.

And we've kind of reacted the way the largest kid on the playground would if the smallest kid bloodies his nose. Surprise, then shock, then anger. All fueled by fear. (If the smallest kid can do this...I need to take precautions! Assert myself!) And we do. Loudly and ignorantly. It's ok to be dumb, just so long as you're fierce, don't you know!

And that's where we're at. The loudest Americans you see are the ones most afraid. You'll see them chanting "USA number one!" loudly, in the desperate hopes that it's true. They're currently signing away things our founding fathers fought and died for so that they may feel "safe". And if you point that out, then you're a goddamn liberal hippie who wants the terrorists to win.

We're at an ugly time in our history. Please bear with us, and hope as I do that we'll get over it sometime soon.

Re:You had me...

[Anonymous Coward]

Europeans on average do not seem to know that much about the U.S., they just like to talk about it as if they do. Take for instance this discussion of Martin Luther King Jr., which brings up decades-old policies that are no longer in place. Maybe I should rationalize xenophobia about the Europeans that essentially exterminated the indigenous populations of the Americas before the U.S. was even a country. Or irrevocably fucked up the Middle East before the U.S. was a global power, with its imperialist bullshit. Or bought and sold Africans from other Africans for use as labor all over the planet. Gee, let's talk about women's suffrage while we're at it.

The U.S. has no problem with Muslims. Not even the Brotherhood, except when its members want to use violence within the country to create social change. The U.S. accepts many immigrants, and although large parts of the rural U.S. are mostly Caucasian, the urban centers of the country are very diverse. People from the U.S. like to travel abroad, and enjoy tourism from foreign countries. They consume foreign culture (food, music, cinema, etc) and foreign technology (automobiles, consumer electronics, etc) in massive quantities.

People in the U.S. are not generally xenophobic (at least not of cultures that they can identify and understand), they're just incredibly insular. They don't want to have to think about foreign countries or their peoples outside of what is necessary for entertainment. They want to go to Tahita, swim in the clear waters, become intoxicated, stick their faces in some foreign titties, and have sex in bungalows before coming back to the U.S. and not thinking about Tahita again until their next vacation.

The biggest problem people in the U.S. have with the outside world is employment. Namely they don't want to have their jobs exported to foreign countries they're busy not thinking about. This isn't xenophobia, it's essentially a matter of survival. No one wants their world turned upside down on them. People in the U.S. are bizarrely in debt on average, and cannot afford to survive and have their jobs shipped elsewhere. They would be pissed off if their job moved entirely from their community to another one in the U.S., too. It's just worse when it moves somewhere there's really no chance of you moving to, and you need to take a massive decrease in the quality of life in order to just keep your house.

Re:You had me...

[Darkman, Walkin Dude]

It's also about 2.2 times the median income of a male your country

Ireland, rank 9 in the world in terms of income per capita. And that was 2004. In 2003, we were at number 11. And in purchasing power parity we are at number 7 in the world. Your ignorance is, well, all there is to say about you really. Not to mention we don't use GBP here, you toolbag. We use euros. Still haven't managed to gather the gonads to sign in? Beh enough troll feeding for one holiday.

Re:You had me...

[Darkman, Walkin Dude]

Sir, I salute you. No apologies are needed, however, I understand that most people in America are rational, reasonable and intelligent. Even so, thats no reason to let the vocal minority get away with it. In fact, that's the main reason to not let them have their say unopposed. Happy christmas!

Re:You had me...

[pipingguy]

Up until recently, war was something that you go and do, not something that happens to you. When we went to war, we would ship out. War never happened here.

Very well-said.

Re:You had me...

[babbage]

You have to read the article to put the quote in context. The first paragraph, under a photo of a man facing a robot, reads as follows:

HER name is MARIE, and her impressive set of skills comes in handy in a nursing home. MARIE can walk around under her own power. She can distinguish among similar-looking objects, such as different bottles of medicine, and has a delicate enough touch to work with frail patients. MARIE can interpret a range of facial expressions and gestures, and respond in ways that suggest compassion. Although her language skills are not ideal, she can recognise speech and respond clearly. Above all, she is inexpensive . Unfortunately for MARIE, however, she has one glaring trait that makes it hard for Japanese patients to accept her: she is a flesh-and-blood human being from the Philippines. If only she were a robot instead.

Later on, the last paragraph, partly quoted in the Slashdot writeup, is:

What seems to set Japan apart from other countries is that few Japanese are all that worried about the effects that hordes of robots might have on its citizens. Nobody seems prepared to ask awkward questions about how it might turn out. If this bold social experiment produces lots of isolated people, there will of course be an outlet for their loneliness: they can confide in their robot pets and partners. Only in Japan could this be thought less risky than having a compassionate Filipina drop by for a chat.

As with many other things in life, it makes more sense in context. Here, the journalist is pulling the common writer's trick of using a catchy side anecdote as a framing device for a broader piece, using it to hint at how the topic being discussed -- the embrace of robot technology in Japan -- exists in a broader context of immigration, xenophobia, technophilia, and social environment.

Re:compassionate Filipina?

[Antony-Kyre]

I'm also wondering why they said that in the article. It seems out of context. (After reading the reply, I shall note this. I am a heterosexual male.)

(I'm going to take it that Filipina is referring to nationality as opposed to ethnicity.)

robots

[alxkit]

robots are our friends... http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/robots.php

Re:compassionate Filipina?

[0spf]

The Japanese have a reputation for being prejudiced.

I think this is want the last comment is referring too, Japans xenophobia.

http://www.hrdc.net/sahrdc/hrfeatures/HRF39.htm
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/11/12/10370 80728620.html
http://www.crnjapan.com/discrimination/en/
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=31436

Sure, but

[jpellino]

they scurry at the sight of 100 foot tall reptiles and then their mouths stop working.

Americans on the other hand stare at any imminent danger like inquisitive puppies, waiting for their closeup.

Re:All Hooked Up

[Hiro Antagonist]

Great, Yet Another Fuckheaded Idiot who thinks they know everything about Japan because they've seen Ghost In The Shell and have a Chii body-pillow.

Japan doesn't allow ready immigration mostly because of long-standing racist policies. Doubt me? There are generations of Koreans (and other Southeast Asians) who were born in Japan, have lived in Japan for their entire lives, and speak, read, and write Japanese fluently, but are denied citizenship because they aren't 'Japanese'. This is changing, which is good, but the speed of this change is glacial.

Most Japanese laugh at their religions (Shinto and Buddhism) and don't take them seriously at all; you go to the shrines on holidays, and for special occasions, but that's about it. Japanese people don't walk around in mystic-eyed wonder at the 'spirits' of the things around them. Why? Because that would be weird as hell; this might surprise you, but Japanese people act in many ways much like Americans, only with a hell of a lot more groupthink.

Robots can only be good for humanity

[Morgaine]

Let's take a look at the three common scenarios:

A. Robots remain good and helpful.

Compare this against the current state of affairs, where humanity is segmented into fundamentalist religious factions at war with each other, rapacious and/or clueless politicians bringing in 1984, big business cartels treating the citizenry as cattle, lawyers oiling the wheels of all the "legal" malevolance, plus an underbelly of simple criminals who care not about what they do to their neighbour. Yes, robot companions will become infinitely preferable to people, on average.

B. Robots do the Skynet or War Games thing and try to exterminate or dominate us.

This would undoubtedly unite us again, much like an alien invasion would do, because it's in the nature of humanity to unite against an external threat --- it's been happening throughout the ages, against attacks on one's country. So, at least there would be a silver lining for humanity amid the War Against The Machines or equivalent, until it's over one way or another.

C. The Culture scenario from Iain M. Banks' novels, ie. machine intelligence and capability becomes so incomprehensibly greater than our own that Man and all other creatures in the galaxy become their very well looked after pets.

Banks' scenario is good whichever you look at it: either mankind is happy as a pampered pet and wishes to remain so, or else mankind absorbs the technology of AI into itself and becomes one with it in order to remain the dominant species on the planet. The latter is Ray Kurzweil's expected future, as described in The Age of Spiritual Machines.

So, I see only good from the coming of the robot, regardless of its level of machine intelligence and the goals it develops for itself, if any.

Re:Robots can only be good for humanity

[helioquake]

B. Robots do the Skynet or War Games thing and try to exterminate or dominate us.

While reading that line, it occurred to me: how much influence have human-friendly robots in many Japanese animes had on the growning cyber-phile genre in Japan?

Re:Robots can only be good for humanity

[earthbound kid]

Or

D. Technologists promise the moon, fail to deliver, and disappoint the general public.

Think about it: we're already on the edge of falling off Moore's law. It's probably possible to make a computer a hundred times faster than it is today, but a million? Not likely using known physics. I think this will end up like the space race. Rockets kept getting more and more powerful in the 50s and 60s, so everyone assumed the process would continue indefinitely until we had moon bases and warp drive. Only, it turned out that the rocket fuel to mass requirements for things are a bitch, and unless we can magically make rocket fuel 100 times more efficient, space travel will never be that cheap.

It's fun to think about what if, but my guess is, after a certain level of complexity comes into technology, we just end up spending the rest of time asymptotically approaching a physical limit.

Re:Robots can only be good for humanity

[Savantissimo]

It's probably possible to make a computer a hundred times faster than it is today, but a million? Not likely using known physics.

I'd say they'll get at least a million million times more powerful before the limits are reached. K. Eric Drexler's book Nanosystems has detailed and thoroughly analysed designs for mechanical molecular computers that would perform up to 10^16 instructions per watt and could store nearly 10^21 bytes per cm^3. That would be about 10^9 times as powerful as today's computers on a per-watt basis. A 1cc 100KW computer could deliver 10^15 MIPS. Of course molecular electronics would be even faster than the mechanical designs.

At some point progress will come to a close, but the fundamental physical limits are pretty far out there. A hydrogen atom has a theoretical maximum information content of megabytes. Degenerate matter computers could potentially be many orders of magnitude smaller than ordinary atoms would allow. Artificial pseudo-atoms of any imaginable size and shape are being constructed from experimenter-created forces in the lab and could also open the possible designs of computers. Quantum superposition of states in computers could allow using astronomical numbers of virtual copies of the computer, potentially surpassing the theoretical capacity of a conventional computer using all the mass in the universe. Even without talking about physical limits in the grander sense, forseeable molecular nanoechnology will allow atomically precise computers of millions of tons consuming quadrillions of watts. That kind of power is as far beyond what today's computers can do as an abacus is from the combined power of every brain in Earth's history.

Re:compassionate Filipina?

[Anakron]

...in a sensitive, kind, faithful, strong, stable, caring way

And yet your nick is "misanthrope"101. Interesting...

Re:America for Americans (and robots)

[HermanAB]

You mean, save America for American robots.

Me.

[headkase]

Um, how about we keep the intelligence in humans instead? There's nothing a superintelligence can do that enough well organized humans can't. Although it would probably take longer with people, what's the hurry? Back to organization - the forest is a distict entity based on trees. You can be a human tree and let the emergent forest do its thing hopefully in a human valued way or you can delegate your decisions to a machine and risk irrelevence.

Re:Me.

[Liam Slider]

There's nothing a superintelligence can do that enough well organized humans can't.

That's like saying there's nothing a human can do that enough well organized tadpoles can't. Superhuman intelligence, when it happens, won't just be faster than humans, it will be of a whole different order of intelligence, like we are over lower animals. It would be able to think of things, have ideas, that are simply too vast for human minds to grasp.

Maybe...

[chinakow]

...they spend less time paralyzed thinking about what could go wrong and more time thinking about how to make something better? :-)

Wow. Can't believe it lasted so long without this.

[ScaryFroMan]

I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords.

Re:All Hooked Up

[dhakbar]

"this might surprise you, but Japanese people act in many ways much like Americans, only with a hell of a lot more groupthink."

Oh, so Japan's a lot like Slashdot?

Really?

[Ozymand E. Us]

Robots don't have sex organs.

In Japan they do...

Re:Really?

[orasio]

Robots don't have sex organs.

In Japan they do...

In Korea, only old people's robots have sex organs.

Re:compassionate Filipina?

[taggat]

It might refer to the Japanese occupation of the Philippines in WWII Try Googling for the details. I know a lot of Filipino's and they tell horror stories about the occupation. Horror stories that I will not repeat here because I do not know if they are true.

Asimov fans feel free to comment here...

[Chordonblue]

Is it just me or did any of you other Asimov 'Robots' fans look at this article and think: "Planet Solaria"? I certainly did, and I would've thought that kind of mindset was not realistic - until now. With the population of Japan actually on a decline how is this sort of reliance on robots going to help?

It seems as though Japanese would rather communicate with each other in non-direct means. Won't robots just introduce yet another layer of social interferance?

Will Japan become Solaria to Europe's 'Aurora'? Scary. I wonder what Asimov's model was for Solaria to begin with because it seems frighteningly accurate now.

Automation has nothing to do with interaction

[xtal]

Japan has lead in automation because of a limited pool of workers. Thus, they have much more incentive to invest in heavy next-generation levels of automation. The opposite extreme is China, where there is a near infinite supply of very cheap labour available. Thus, no incentive at all to innovate. If you can hire people at near subsistance level wages, they are very capable machines properly engineered.

This is more to the core of why Japan has lead innovation vs. population density. They're a very small nation geographically and population wise, running against much larger, much more resource and energy rich competitors.

Re:Automation has nothing to do with interaction

[SirPavlova]

I made a post higher up about Isaac Asimov's work not long ago, so I've got him stuck in my head; anyway, what you said about Japanese innovation being driven by scarce resources reminded me of his Foundation series. Great books.

Re:All Hooked Up

[Jahaza]

Non-citizens can join the US Military, though they can't get most security clearences or be officers. They can, however, then immediately apply for naturalization with 1 day of service.

It's not voice of masses inJapan.

[Gashu]

Well, this article is totally interesting, but lacks some important points. First of all, it is not based on voices from mass, just saying MASS because the ROBOTS are still in niche market in Japan. We MASS still seeing that "Curious" or "Futuristic" but NOT "Better Than Human".

Looking back background arround the robots in Japan, Yes, there are some Robot Icons in SF / Manga Culture as you may have seen in Japanimations. But connecting this background to mass is so irrelevant. Because few artistic SF / Manga / Anime creator is applaused in economic market.

So pointing robots' background culture to Japanese society in some kinda JAPANESE_SHOULD_BE_THIS view is totally irrelevant. If you believe that, You will lose something important.

Again, As I, one of Japanese, This article is NOT based on voice from masses in Japan. Here is no Blade Runner culture in masses, people are wathing this in curious eyes, probably not so different from you folks.

Re:Old /. semi-meme resurrection

[jb.hl.com]

In Japan they do.

Re:All Hooked Up

[Anonymous Coward]

While I agree with most of your comments, I find that "inject[ing] life into the inanimate world" is a dangerous precident. If the robots come to rebel against their Japanese masters, all hell will break loose. At that point, we can only depend on immigrants. One such great Japanese immigrant who will strike both hope and fear into the Japanese people on the day that the robots rebel is hope Godzilla himself. We can only pray that he will rise from the seas to crush this robotic menace for the Japanese people.

Invasion of the Marvins

[Belseth]

Given the high suicide rate in Japan I'd avoid real people personality prototypes. An army of Marvin styled robots could double the suicide rate overnight. Even overly enthusiastic robotic doors could add considerable. I still remember the first cars with voices back in the 80s. About the third time it told me the door was ajar when I was opening it I nearly took an axe to the thing.

Reason for Philippines comment

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of people seem to be confused about this. Basically as everyone knows Japan's society is the most rapidly aging in the world. So an important subject is who is going to take care of all the old people (quite literally - nurses and the like). One proposal is to import nurses from countries like the Phillipines and teach them to speak Japanese and Japanese cultural mores. However, Japan has largely rejected this proposal due to the fact that the country as a whole is extremely anti-immigration, even full-blooded Japanese "returnees" who were born in Japan but spend a few years living overseas experience rejection. So, as you can imagine the thoughts of an influx of Filippo nurses worries the Japanese a lot. I'm not sure how well robots would replace the foreign labour option. The foreign labour option is cheap and robots are extremely expensive, not to mention that the robots capable of doing the job of a human nurse don't exist yet and aren't likely to for a long time. And unfortunately for Japan the aging problem is right now, in fact the population has already started to decline this year. It's not like they have decades to develop AI and get it right...It seems more like an attempt to avoid reality more than anything else.

Re:Reason for Philippines comment

[ScottCooperDotNet]

I thought it was a callback to the "comfort women" the Japanese Army used to keep the men's sexual desires under control.

Re:Reason for Philippines comment

[kawakawa]

I think Japan goverment should be more tolerant about immigrations, too.

But many Japanese people think that it must be happy for all people to work in their own country.
Most of us were born in the islands, and live in the islands, and will die in the islands, in fact.
So it is not usual for us to work on abroad.
Of course, there are many foreign workers now in Japan, however.

I believe ROBOTS would help us living comfortably and being happy.
Not only for Japanese, but also for Philippines and any people.

Japanese not People?

[theraccoon]

"Japanese Find Robots Less Intimidating Than People"

So when did the Japanese stop being people...? Apparently when their robots took over, killing them all and replacing them with short, high school girl obsessed machines who are way into tentacle bondage.

Doraemon

[kawakawa]

We all Japanese love Doraemon.

Re:All Hooked Up

[DrMrLordX]

Look what it did to France.

Japan is full of coolness

[tod_miller]

They have awesome bukkake shows in TV, yet school kids get health problems because they are too embarrassed to shit at school!

We should export some brit comedy, good ol' fashioned toilet humour. Then they would build some crazy mecha-monster and it would start destroying world landmarks.

still! full of coolness.

Well the article is highly biased

[SmallFurryCreature]

The author judges the japanese as being wrong. The west is obviously right in its fear of robots and love of cheap immigrans. That there have been no robot riots and several western countries have had to deal with immigrant riots is neither here nor there.

But I think there is a far simpler reason behind the lack of immigration. Japanese companies had a pact with their workers. You work hard and we give you employment for live. While this is changing on the whole a japanese company is far more likely to stick with the expensive locals then say an american company who is always looking to reduce labor costs.

As we are seeing now with the claimed shortage in tech workers (wich has been proven again and again not to be true) western companies are always looking for an excuse to get lower wage workers in place.

Immigrants do not complain and do not demand high wages or sane hours. When even they became to expensive entire production facilities were located off-shore and now even the office work is being put in low wage nations.

Because there is nobody to do the work here? No, because it allows them to scrape another percentage of the labor costs. Fuck the longterm economy, next quarters stock price is what matters.

Japanese companies operated on a slightly different moral principle. Their workers worked themselves into an easy grave and in exchange the japanese worker was assured a job for live (strangely enough with all that hard work the japanese get older then most westeners).

The west is currently having major problems with the results of it open immigration policy, right or wrong you can hardly blame the japanese for not wanting to have race riots in their cities. And no, not just in France. They have had them in england and in holland.

Perhaps we should ask why the west is so afraid of robots instead.

Re:Wow. Can't believe it lasted so long without th

[Spy der Mann]

I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords.

Don't listen to him, he's a troll-bot. Oh, wait...

Re:compassionate Filipina?

[Airconditioning]

It's a reference to the first paragraph, about the girl named Marie from the Phillipines who can't get a job in hospitality.

Re:compassionate Filipina?

[FailedTheTuringTest]

Re-read TFA more carefully. The Filipina in question is Marie, the nurse described in the first paragraph (and the fourth paragraph).

A Japanese version of the movie "I, Robot"...

[cciRRus]

Would certainly change their perception of robots.

Re:compassionate Filipina?

[Antony-Kyre]

I should have read it all before replying to someone else's comment.

What will dependency mean?

[12212012]

If robots are widespread in any society, how dependent will the people in that society become upon these robots? What will that dependency mean?

Off-topic example: one of my friends at college asked me how to get to Wal-Mart since I know the area; but when we got in her car, she decided to rely on On-Star's directions instead of mine. We ended up in the next town before she would believe me when I said she had been given incorrect directions.

I think my point above is that I would be wary of a society that depends on robots if the people in that society were not aware that no technology is fool-proof. I don't think that would happen immediately in any society in which robots were introduced, but I could imagine it happening over time. A lot of people, at least in America, seem to be far too interested in their own convenience to not (eventually) become ignorant to the fact that something on which they depend to make their lives faster may sometimes prove itself fallible.

And from here, I fall into nightmares of some future totalitarian society where a small group of elite use robots to subjugate the masses. But I won't get into that now, because I'd be jumping to far too many conclusions if I did.

shoe etiquette

[neutralstone]

It implies to me that it's a big effort to take off and put on my shoes (I have things called shoelaces) and I don't expect to be in your house long enough to warrant such effort. Gah. Oh, and heaven forbid they put a CHAIR next to the big pile of shoes so I don't have to bend over and risk toppling myself TWICE in the period of my visit. Often I end up going outside to sit on the front step to take off my shoes -- usually dirting my socks (and therefore your carpet) in the process. AAAAAAAAAAHHH I really hate it. Sorry.

1) Regarding difficulty of removal and donning of shoes: It really needn't be a big effort, nor should it take much more than two seconds. You don't tie and untie your shoes at each donning and removal; you simply leave them slightly loosened so that you can quickly slip them on and off. I've moved furniture and removed my shoes with my feet while entering the house so as not to sully the carpet, and this was always an effortless operation. If you think this sounds like a difficult thing to do, you probably haven't tried doing it long enough. When you live for a very short time -- like a couple/few weeks -- in a culture that requires this kind of behavior, you'll get the hang of it. I admit it's more annoying to cope with this practice in a country like the U.S., where the understanding that "you-remove-your-shoes-**here**" is seldom established. (For example, most houses and apartments in the U.S. are not built with a special area with a recessed floor near the front door where people are expected to take off their shoes.)

2) The amount of time you spend walking around on the inside floor with your shoes is irrelevant. The problem (if you do that) is that you're getting filth on the inside floor, and people/cultures with "no-shoes-**here**" policies tend not to like the idea of walking on *filth* in their socks.

3) I agree that a chair would help in cultures where the "take-your-shoes-off-**here**" policy is not widely practiced; those who live in cultures with relaxed shoe policies and who want to adopt the cleaner rule would do well to provide transitional aids like that. (It would be considerate to provide one's guests with a couple of swiveling chairs, shoehorns, footstools, and some way to steady one's self and prevent toppling.)

To sum up: I understand why you're annoyed, but trust that once you get used to it, you remove/don so quickly that you give it about as much thought (and time!) as closing the door behind you.

Re:shoe etiquette

[Fred Ferrigno]

I tie my shoes rather tightly and I find loose fitting shoes uncomfortable. For me, if I can slip my shoes off without untieing them, well then I put them back on and re-tie them. I agree that I *could* change my ways and wear covered sandals everywhere, but I'd rather not. Surely, if I lived in a country where this practice was wide spread, I probably would get a pair of slip-on-slip-off shoes out of resignation, but certainly not preference. I still contend that it's a frustratingly annoying practice that I hope dies and I find it absurd that I should be limited in my choice of footwear because of your carpet.

Most of the time, my shoes really aren't that dirty. I live in a city with rather pleasant weather most of the year. Normally, walking "outdoors" consists of the paved walkway from one building to another, or from a building to a car. My (good) shoes are never really exposed to any great amount of dirt. No, I wouldn't eat off them, but I wouldn't eat off your carpet either. If the weather is bad or if I've just been hiking, then I would certainly take them off before entering, regardless of the house's practice.

If we hold that my shoe is *somewhat* dirty, and I admit it probably is, only some fraction of the dirt will fall off at any given moment. If I have 20 grams of sand on my shoe and 1/5 of it falls off per step, then my first step in your house will deposit 4 grams of sand on your carpet, leaving most of it on my shoe. If I immediately turn around and leave, only that amount will be left in your home, in a concentrated spot that is easily cleaned. If I stay all day, all 20 grams will eventually find their way to the floor, scattered in various places and would be much harder to clean up. So time does matter, except for a cultural perception that shoes are always dirty, dirty things, and a single step indoors will irreparably damage the carpet.

The question, as far as I'm concerned, is how much effort does it take for me to remove my shoes versus how much effort does it take you to clean up how much dirt. The disagreement therefore comes when I think my shoes are quite clean as far as shoes go and prefer ones that aren't easily removed. You assume they're dirty and expect everyone to wear slippers. As your guest, I would think you'd show deference to the guy falling over himself by the front door and break out the vacuum every once in a while.

The least one could do, as you agree, is to PUT OUT A CHAIR.

Re:All Hooked Up

[DNS-and-BIND]

Well, importing culturally foreign people on a mass scale hasn't worked out too well for France or Australia. Maybe the Japanese have a point, one that's not allowed to be discussed?

Fear of non-Japanese

[identity0]

I'm from Japan, and I'm sometimes amazed at the attitudes of people back home in Japan. I was raised in California, among lots of different ethnicities, so it's not uncomfortable for me to be among foreigners, but to people raised in Japan, it's really different. Japan can feel like a really small town when dealing with outsiders sometimes.

The closest thing I can imagine to Japan's racial attitudes in the US is something like a totally white community in the midwest, in the '50s. It's not that they actively hate other races, it's just that they grow up in an environment where everyone's the same race, and there are entrenched cultural expectations of what being a 'proper' citizen is. This results in a culture where there's lots of apprehention about foreigners, because they're an 'unknown element' that could disrupt social norms.

This, combined with the techno-phillia that's been in Japan since the '50s, is what makes robots more acceptable.

Another might be that robots can be programmed, foreigners cannot. This might be an important distinction in a society where education is seen as an important social stabilizer. The fact is, it might be easier to program robots to be 'Japanese' than naturalize foreigners, who will not be accepted as 'Japanese', anyway. There are still thousands of ethnic Koreans who were born there and aren't citizens because they have Korean names, and Japan's national identity is based heavily on race. A robot doesn't really have a racial identity aside from what it is programmed to be, I would guess.

Anyways, what I am trying to say is that the reason Japan prefers robots to immigrants is that they can be a very cosmopolitan, modern and advanced place as far as technology and consumer culture goes, but they can also be like a rural backwater as far as outsiders go.

Re:Fear of non-Japanese

[Eli Gottlieb]

education is seen as an important social stabilizer.
Oh, trust me, the USA has that, too. Most of the nasty things Westerners see about Japan are just open admissions of the nastiest, most covered up bits of our own culture. Like how the "rugged individualism" that built America is basically dead, replaced with office buildings, high schools and strip malls.

Now bring on the robots!

Or!

[Snaller]

They could build massive robots and invade the world!

Re:All Hooked Up

[Snaller]

Most Japanese laugh at their religions

Sensible people.

Re:All Hooked Up

[TheZorch]

Anonymous Coward writes:
"The native religion of Japan, Shinto, teaches that everything has a spirit. While many poo-poo this as a backward and strange throwback to an animastic past the west shrugged off a long time ago, this view is much more practical than is often realised. Viewing everything as a spirit that exists in relation to everything else encourages the development of a much more sensitive and context aware mentality."

Shinto is the dominant religion in Japan second only to Budhism. Only 5% of Japan's vast population is Christian or Catholic. Christmas is still celebrated by most of Japan anyway. Shinto is a ancient religion, its origins date back the Old Stone Age between 100,000 & 10,000 B.C. It ranks as one of the oldest "active" religions on Earth.

The Shinto religion has no establish code of morality like Christianity and other major religions. Its a system based more on people policing their own behavior rather than following a set of pre-written commandments (ie; The Ten Commandments). Japan in general, is one of the few civilizations on Earth that still has a widely practiced Honor-based social system. Though the social-class was outlawed long before the onset of WWII, most Japanese live by the Samurai Code (Bushido Code) which calls for ritual suicide (seppoku) as a way to redeem one's lost honor.

They are a people of extreme contrasts. On one said they are one of the most technologically advanced cultures on the planet and on the other hand they a people who still have on foot in the ancient past. They are desparately trying to keep a hold of their ancient culture and beliefs in the fact of advancing technology. I blame the Tokogawa Shojunate and the closing of Japan's boarders during this era as the reason for Japan's precieved backwardness. When Admiral Perry sailed into Tokyo Harbor in the 1800's the world was experiencing the Industrial Revolution, but Japan was frozen in time and its people lived the same way they had as if they were still in the Middle Ages. Japan had to play catchup with the rest of the world and they did so with furocious tennacity. This is why the Japanese are more open to embracing new technology faster than most Western cultures.

-Information researched from the book "Japanese Culture" from Honolulu Univerity Press.

Afraid of Robots?!

[Dr. Shim]

Being afraid of robots is like saying you fear MySQL, because it might find a way of hurting you, or keeping you away from your friends. (Admittedly, both those arguments aren't completly without merit!)

So what if robots will keep people away from real people? What's the difference between physically getting up, driving to some filth-ridden pub, and talking dirty with idiot humans all day?

Most humans more closely resemble robots than most robots resemble humans!

Re:A Japanese version of the movie "I, Robot"...

[Dr. Shim]

True. They'd finally realize that if they keep using "free radical protocols" they could engineer an army of sentiant plastic killing machines. Movies rock.

Re:All Hooked Up

[pario]

Disclaimer: I am a Japanese national who was born and grew up in Japan.

Japan doesn't allow ready immigration mostly because of long-standing racist policies

This statement is simply incorrect. The general racist attitude of the Japanese against Koreans has little to do with what you referred to as "racist policies." The Korean Japanese have historically been treated as collective scapegoats, whereas the long-held Japanese isolationist policies are largely due to the fact that the ways the Japanese interact with each other hinge on the homogeneity of Japanese society. The nation has a history that is vastly different from the history of the United States, and referring such policies as "racist" is a serious violation of the principle of cultural relativity.

Most Japanese laugh at their religions (Shinto and Buddhism) and don't take them seriously at all

I really have to take a strong issue with this statement. I am a Zen Buddhist and I take my religious beliefs very seriously. I also know many other Japanese whose lives center around their religious values, and your statement is outrageously insulting to them. Consciously or unconsciously, these religions affect the collective Japanese psyche in fundamental ways, which is evident in every aspect of Japanese life. Probably you didn't live in Japan long enough to see that.

I don't quite understand why the parent post was modded up as "interesting", where "flamebait" is appropriate. The parent poster's naïve assumption that s/he is not "Yet Another Fuckheaded Idiot who thinks they know everything" is fairly amusing. With my experience in the United States and other vastly uninformed posts on this Slashdot story, I am under the impression that most American people really don't take enough time to understand other cultures. (The Japanese are guilty of that, too.) It takes years, if not decades, to understand any given culture, and the danger of premature judgments and hasty generalizations cannot be stressed enough.

Re:A Japanese version of the movie "I, Robot"...

[TCM]

Because it comes out of Hollywood it must be a true and accurate depiction of how things will turn out, right?

Read more: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=i_ robot

Re:All Hooked Up

[Guppy06]

"Japan is absolutely correct to view mass immigration with suspicion."

Japan is absolutely hyporcritical about it, then. They saw no problem with mass emmigration, especially in the 1930's and 1940's. They'll go to the Philippines, annex the islands at the point of a rifle and shoot anybody that disagrees, but they won't allow Filipinos to voluntarily come to Japan to live and work?

Sure, what the Japanese did in the 1930's in the Philippines wasn't all that much better than what we did to them in the 1900's, but we at least let the Filipinos come here and become citizens nowadays.

Re:compassionate Filipina?

[Guppy06]

"I'm going to take it that Filipina is referring to nationality as opposed to ethnicity."

In most countries in the world, especially Japan, there's no difference between the two.

Quite time with Robby

[d3cr33p]

If this bold social experiment produces lots of isolated people...

In a country the size of Montana with a population of over 127 million people? It seems to me that the opposite would be true.

Old Glory Insurance

[the.o.ster.66]

"...for when the metal ones come for you."

insurance against robot attacks

Re:Damn you batman!!!1!

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Hahaha, this is insane enough that I find it hilarious.

Hey. What makes you think it's so outrageous?

Have a very Merry Slashdot Christmas!

Re:All Hooked Up

[Liam Slider]

Japan is absolutely correct to view mass immigration with suspicion. Injecting a large mix of wildly divergent cultures will lead to more disorder and disharmony in the long-run.

You mean like the US, which was built upon the very idea of welcoming people from wildly divergent cultures into our own? Except for a criminal nutjob for a President, we seem to be doing fine.

Re:All Hooked Up

[Mister Yoan]

Gee, thank you. Finally.

Hope you don't live in Western Europe, though, the thought police will scoop you right up.

Robots as an economic investment

[merciless]

While the article was interesting in showing the cultural component, it misses a much bigger reason on why the japanese pursues technology rather than just using human capital. The short of it is that while human capital, a known quantity who's performance parameters are more or less fixed, the theoretical performance parameters for robots are MUCH bigger. Think about the performance parameters of a horse versus a car. Thinik of a cost curve of a philipino worker. Right now a robot is (much) higher in operating cost and do less than the equivalent philipino worker, but because technology is improving (think of technology as evolution by other means) while human performance parameters are more or less stabilized to a certain degree, it becomes obvious that at some point automation of labor will supersede human labor.

This has already happened in other industries such as chip fabrication, automobile manufacturing (new Toyota plants aim to have robot to worker ratio of up to 9 to 1) and package sorting. This has been done with rudimentry software and simple hardware - nothing that is as advanced as the software algorithm used to win Darpa's Grand Challenge or artificial muscles (which can be at least an order of magnitude more reliable than hydraulics or multiple electric motors for each joint). I read somewhere that the magic number in United States is $17 an hour - the average hourly wage in USA. So when a robot's operating cost goes below that threshhold and do the job with equal productiveness, then at that point it'll make sense to buy robots rather than hire workers.

Re:All Hooked Up

[fbjon]

And there are no problems in the US stemming from this, either... ...

Anyway, Japan is very crowded. Logically, more people should be moving out right now, not in.

Re:All Hooked Up

[Jimmy Breeze]

I'm not sure you can point to a country where there aren't cultural clashes that can become dangerous. In my very humble opinion, the situations you refer to often arise where there is a group, in the majority, that feels as if it is having its birthright impinged upon. It appears that in regions where there is no main majority that can feel this way that problems are of a smaller scale, and are of those typical in many societies. The benefit of being exposed to many cultures (food, friendship, etc) outweighs, in my mind, these smaller issues.

One case you mention is Australia. The suburb where the recent trouble started was Cronulla where the population is by far Australian caucasian, unlike the majority of Sydney.

I don't have a social policy in mind, but I like the idea of being able to travel, and live, in other countries. Societies being afraid of the disruption I might cause kinda saddens me. If it really is for the greater good, I'll stay at home. But I'm not sure it is.

Perhaps some (admittedly twisted) hope is offered by the way focus changes from one migrant group to another as the society becomes used to the first group, or the first group becomes integrated. There is a lot less resentment towards East Asians in Australia now than there was ten years ago, for instance.

Re:All Hooked Up

[Liam Slider]

And there are no problems in the US stemming from this, either... ...

For the most part...no. And what minor problems have cropped up, we have gained much greater benefits that far outweigh any such problems. Being a diverse, multicultural society has benefited us greatly. And hell, I wouldn't exist if we weren't. By anscestry I'm a mix of German, Jewish, assorted Native American, English, and Black...and that's just as far as I have been able to trace. I'm proud of all those roots, they give me character, and great family and cultural history. Most native-born Americans are a similar mix of peoples (particular peoples may vary).

The "melting pot" has been good to us. It's how we rose from second-rate bunch of barely organized group of colonists, to the single most powerful nation on the planet. Might be good to take a lesson or two.

Re:All Hooked Up

[clambake]

There are generations of Koreans (and other Southeast Asians) who were born in Japan, have lived in Japan for their entire lives, and speak, read, and write Japanese fluently, but are denied citizenship because they aren't 'Japanese'.

This is a common misconception that has been around for years. While at one time this was true, today it is not. Those Koreans CAN become Japanese citizens, but first they have to give up thier Korean citizenship and Korean names, both fairly reasonable, considering it's asked of everyone else who is to become a citizern as well. Many have been raised by many generations of Korean parents who have taught them that thier name and Korean-ness needs to be preserved at all costs, and thus they don't see the benifit to losing it just so they can get a vote for candidates they don't care about.

Re:All Hooked Up

[Hiro Antagonist]

To begin with, I am, of course, non-Japanese, but I've spent some time there (and not on a tour bus, mind you), and I'm likely to end up married to my current (Japanese) girlfriend after we both finish Graduate school, plus I will be living there for a year for language study -- so don't think that I hate the country or its people. That said, a few things:

First off, anybody who cites 'Ghost In The Shell' as an important insight into Japanese culture is an idiot. Period. The Real Japan is not something you read about in manga or anime; just like The Real America isn't something you can find at your local Blockbuster. You, as a Japanese, should know that better than anyone. It would be like me claiming that Americans fear technology because, in The Matrix, machines enslave humanity.

Second, I'm sorry, but Japan is quite possibly the most racist place I have ever been in my life, second only to the Deep South of the United States (and that's only because groups like the KKK are actively violent). I can speak, read, and write Japanese well enough to make my way around, and despite this, getting service when I *wasn't* accompanied by a Japanese-looking friend was almost impossible.

Admittedly, things got a lot better when I got out of Kantou, and I genuinely liked Kansai, but Toukyou is where all the decisions get made.

Homogenity? Please; NHK has to *subtitle* the dialogue from thei news broadcasts in Kagoshima, the Okinawans are treated like second-class citizens, and the amount of businesses wholly owned and operated by Korean immigrants is utterly astounding. Japan likes to put on the appearance of being 'homogenous', but the exact opposite is the case -- there is a hell of a lot of social division in Japan, more than even in the U.S., and it causes problems.

Fuck 'cultural relativity'. Japanese people actively discriminate against both non-Japanese and people who aren't 'Japanese Enough'; hell, the Japanese news makes it a point to mention it when a *foreigner* commits a crime, even if the criminal isn't really from another country -- they just aren't a Japanese National. This sounds like 'racism' to me, and for a first-world country to engage in it is asinine.

Now, that said, I'm sure my post sounds bitter, but understand where I am coming from: I have worked in Germany, spent quite a bit of time outside of the U.S., and have a ton of Japanese business connections. I also, overall, do not like the way things are done in my country, at least in terms of our politics and certain aspects of our culture. my country had better start playing ball with the rest of the world, because if we don't, we are Fucked with a capital 'F'. America needs to stop short-changing its students, needs to fix its immigration law, needs to stop trying to use military force to fix every problem, and needs, basically, another revolution. I just hope that it happens, and that it's a peaceful one.

I, however, at least *acknowledge* that my country has a big dose of problems, and that these problems need solutions. I don't live in some happy la-la land where I just claim that the rest of the world just doesn't 'understand America', and that those that criticize America are ignorant; sometimes they are, but often they have good points as well. You, on the other hand, are exhibiting one of the most irritating traits that I have found in the Japanese people: Writing others' criticisms off as a lack of understanding, other than as a potential source for problem identification.

Fortunately, all Japanese don't do this; I know a lot of very smart people over on that little island that *realize* that the fourteen-hour workday is stupid, that acknowledge a greater need to stamp out racism, and that want to build Japan into the envy of the world, and they know that this isn't going to happen by pretending that everything is all hunky-dory.

Those people are the reason that, despite my criticisms of Japan, I am continuing to learn Japanese, study the culture, and want to do business there, because there still exists the potential for greatness; I can only *hope* the same of my own country.

Re:All Hooked Up

[Hiro Antagonist]

To clarify, by 'laughs at', I don't mean 'totally ignores'; that's impossible, and yes, Shinto and Zen do have a lot of influence in Japanese thought, just as Christianity has a lot of influence in Western thought. My point is, though, that most people don't wander around actively caring about religion, always thinking about the 'spirits' of the objects around them and such.

The parent poster seemed, to me at least, to be implying that Japanese people are always actively thinking about the 'spirit' of everything, when in reality, that is hardly the case -- it's more a philosophical underpinning than an active tool of thought.

oh dear...

[circusboy]

has no one watched "Bubblegum Crisis: Tokyo 2040"

we're all doomed!

I'll Replace You With Machines - Guided By Voices

[saudadelinux]

If since the letter,
ade a deal go sour,
on pacts of golden seal,
post marked.

Ain't it funny how it gets there,
and they say it never does,
I'll replace you with machines,
I can't face you.

so I wrote a letter,
to the messenger of my dreams,
I see him at a party,
endlessly.

Ain't it funny how it gets there,
and they say it never does,
I'll replace you with machines
I can't face you.

It sounds like most of Japan's culture is rather maladapted to life as it currently is. The language is stuck in feudal warlord times, what with the various levels of what we call politeness, and everyone has to, out of the group-harmony thing, choke back every bit of anger they've got,while they're forced to live at Internet-speed.

Where do they hide the anger? How do they get rid of it? Do they get rid of it? If they want to rely on robots instead of each other, they're failing themselves as a society. And as for Marie, the Filipina - the Japanese are notoriously racist, no that's no surprise. She's different from them, and in a land of supreme conformity, she'd freak them out too much merely by existing.

Re:All Hooked Up

[DNS-and-BIND]

In my very humble opinion, the situations you refer to often arise where there is a group, in the majority, that feels as if it is having its birthright impinged upon.

The situations I referred to were when the culturally foreign population rose up against the native population.

The benefit of being exposed to many cultures (food, friendship, etc) outweighs, in my mind, these smaller issues.

Ever consider that not everybody wants their culture annihilated by foreign influences? The ideology that you refer to of "many cultures" (i.e. multiculturalism) is widely considered to be discredited, and only survives because to criticize it brings certain social death to whomever dares to.

What Isolates are Poor Attitudes/Uses of Tech

[weston]

"We see much more of this loneliness now. It's paradoxical that where people are the most closely crowded, in the big coastal cities in the East and West, the loneliness is the greatest. Back where people were so spread out in western Oregon and Idaho and Montana and the Dakotas you'd think the loneliness would have been greater, but we didn't see it so much.

The explanation, I suppose, is that the physical distance between people has nothing to do with loneliness. It's psychic distance, and in Montana and Idaho the physical distances are big but the psychic distances between people are small, and here it's reversed. ...There's this primary America of freeways and jet flights and TV and movie spectaculars. And people caught up in this primary America seem to go through huge portions of their lives without much consciousness of what's immediately around them. The media have convinced them that what's right around them is unimportant. And that's why they're lonely. You see it in their faces. First the little flicker of searching, and then when they look at you, you're just a kind of an object. You don't count. You're not what they're looking for. You're not on TV.

But in the secondary America we've been through, of back roads, and Chinaman's ditches, and Appaloosa horses, and sweeping mountain ranges, and meditative thoughts, and kids with pinecones and bumblebees and open sky above us mile after mile after mile, all through that, what was real, what was around us dominated. And so there wasn't much feeling of loneliness. That's the way it must have been a hundred or two hundred years ago. Hardly any people and hardly any loneliness. I'm undoubtedly over-generalizing, but if the proper qualifications were introduced it would be true.

Technology is blamed for a lot of this loneliness, since the loneliness is certainly associated with the newer technological devices...TV, jets, freeways and so on...but I hope it's been made plain that the real evil isn't the objects of technology but the tendency of technology to isolate people into lonely attitudes of objectivity. It's the objectivity, the dualistic way of looking at things underlying technology, that produces the evil."

-- Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Pirsig, Ch 29 (online here)

Re:Recent robotics fair in Japan

[KDR_11k]

Repliee Q1/Q2. It's on Wikipedia.

-1, Freeloading Jackass

[xant]

Your post had nothing to do with the parent. Stay on topic with the thread, don't freeload.

Asimov's 'Four Laws'

[Nivag064]

Asimov added the Zeroth Law:Do no action that hurts trhe bulk of Humanity

Not sure of the exact words of the Zeroth Law, but it does permit a robot to kill an individual human who was about to bomb a wdding party and kill and injure many people. The law also permits a planet wide planning robot to allow minor failures so that people feel irritated enough to become motivated to take an interest in life - if life is "perfect" why bother attempting to improvev things?


-Nivag

Re:All Hooked Up

[Liam Slider]

If you like growing up without an identity.

No American I know has any doubt about being an American, or what it means to be an American. We do have an identity, born out of our multiculturalism and the common struggles of our great nation. When all else fails, we are all Americans, and we stick together when the fecal matter hits the rotating oscillator. That's our identity.

Re:All Hooked Up

[Jimmy Breeze]

The situation in Australia was not due to the culturally foreign population rising up against the native. Vice versa.

Re:MP3 players, portable DVD players, now robots~

[Grishnakh]

I'm going to be brave here and not post this anonymously.

I'm not sure about this. It seems like there's some places where diversity is good, and some where it causes big problems. Many "international" or "cosmopolitan" cities are that way because they have many people of different cultures living together (and getting along): New York City, Vancouver, Hong Kong, etc. Places like this have significant minorities of people from other cultures, but they're actually richer because of it, and don't have problems with violence between the various groups.

But then there's the places you point to, where there's significant problems. But the difference, it seems to me, is that the minority groups in those cases are 1) very large, 2) usually religious (about their language in the case of the French Canadians), and 3) very militant about their religion or cause, and unwilling to assimilate.

The French Canadians aren't really a problem like the others, I think, in that they haven't (correct me if I'm wrong) caused any violence about wanting to maintain their French identity; but they have been a bit of a pain. The other groups, OTOH, cause tons of problems.

In the case of Israel and Kosovo, I'm not going to say any side is right or wrong, because I think both sides have done terrible things, but it seems like the main problem is that in each case, there's two religious groups that don't get along (thanks to their religion). And in France, the problem is the Muslims are highly religious and the rest of the country isn't, and doesn't care much for highly visibly practiced religion.

Now if you look at those cosmopolitan cities I mentioned (and there's lots more that should probably be included in that list), I think one thing you'll see is that the different ethnic groups aren't highly religious (or they're too small so it doesn't matter), and they're usually willing to assimilate. So in my opinion, the main problem with ethnic conflict is religion. Religion is what causes people to stop using their brains, and take extremist and irrational viewpoints on things (because that, essentially, is what religion is about: believing things with no rational reason to do so). Most religions preach that non-believers are subhuman, "going to hell", or somehow not as worthy as believers. Most religions also advocate violence.

We've seen this problem with religion in many places in history: the Crusades, the expansionism of Islam, the violence of various cults (Jim Jones, David Koresh), etc. This is what happens when you brainwash people into believing ridiculous mythological superstition, instead of teaching them good ethics (get along with other people, etc.). So we shouldn't be surprised when highly religious people migrate to places where they're a sizeable minority, and then cause a lot of tension and conflict. They didn't go there with the intention of assimilating with the existing population and culture and starting a new life away from the crap that existed in their homeland; they instead brought those same problems and stupid mindsets with them. Even worse, if you have two different religions in one place (i.e. Israel), you just end up with a ticking time-bomb. There's simply no way for people to get along peacefully when religion is involved.

If Japan wants to get over their fear of foreigners and allow immigration, without worrying about the immigrants bringing a lot of problems with them, they just need to screen all the immigrants and make sure they're non-religious. When was the last time you heard of agnostics or atheists starting a war trying to convert people?

Stunningly xenophobic

[AdamWill]

This is just stunningly xenophobic reportage. "Only in Japan could this be thought less risky than having a compassionate Filipina drop by for a chat." What? Do they seriously want us to believe the rest of the world is a happy melting pot of social inclusion? Are they seriously telling us that there's not a single redneck in America who wouldn't happily welcome a black person into their home (and vice versa), not a single Protestant in Northern Ireland who wouldn't open their door and sit down for a good old chat with a Catholic neighbour, and so on and so forth? Are they seriously suggesting there are no other countries which have people who would have a robot at home for entertainment / interaction / whatever? If so, what planet does this reporter live on? Sheesh. Pile of crap.

Sheesh.

Re:All Hooked Up

[Liam Slider]

How about you take your head out of your ass for a bit and see what your country is doing to itself.

How about you take your head out of your ass and post as something other than an anonymous troll Mr. Coward? At any rate, you're just jealous.

The greed.

You mean the financial sucess? Yes, our country is financially successful. A great thing, not a bad thing.

The lawsuits.

Better than living in countries where there is no recourse for the people who have been screwed over.

The copyright bullshit

Copyright is great. It's the assholes (including RIAA) who are trying to violate it that are the problem. Could have happened anywhere.

The border bullshit

What "border bullshit" are you speaking of? You mean the construction of a fence to keep illegals out? Something has to be done...we're getting flooded by people who are crossing our borders illegally, and staying and working in our country illegally taking resources including governmental ones, and paying nothing back in the form of taxation...plus there's a security concern. Should we not secure our own borders? We aren't trying to stop everyone who wants to come to this country, just those who want to enter illegally. People are welcome so long as they enter in a legal fashion.

By the way, doesn't the fact that the US has such an insane illegal immigration rate, and high legal immigration rate too for that matter...show just how great the country actually is? If this country were so horrible...wouldn't people want out instead of in?

Your health care problems.

Oh yes, we don't subscribe to socialist nonsense like much of the world so we have "health care problems."

Oh, and what the hell do any of these "problems" of yours...err...ours, have to do with the cultural diversity in America? Come on, let's hear your racist viewpoint...

Re:All Hooked Up

[Grishnakh]

Ever consider that not everybody wants their culture annihilated by foreign influences? The ideology that you refer to of "many cultures" (i.e. multiculturalism) is widely considered to be discredited, and only survives because to criticize it brings certain social death to whomever dares to.

It seems to me that in places where multiculturalism works well (certain cosmopolitan cities), 1) the alien cultures aren't a large portion of the population (usually, the place is made up of many minorities, instead of two large groups), and 2) the people in the alien cultures actually make some efforts to assimilate into the original culture, instead of trying to impose their culture on everyone else.

If I were in control of immigration issues for any area, I wouldn't allow too many people from any one place to immigrate there. I'd limit it, and try to get people from lots of different places to immigrate instead. When one group (especially one that's very religious) gets too large and has too much power, it causes too many problems with the original population.

Re:All Hooked Up

[PakProtector]

and referring such policies as "racist" is a serious violation of the principle of cultural relativity.

Sir/Madam, I could cry right now, seeing that there is atleast one other person in the world who understands this (and may be an Anthropologist.) My mother is a Mental Health Technician doing clinical assessment, and runs workshops of Suicide so that other MHTs can get their continuing education credits needed to stay licensed, and we have gotten into many, many convesations that all focus around 'X is considered a mental illness in Y country but X is considered slightly strange or perfectly proper behaviour in Z country.'

It's good to see someone who understands it is wrong to make moral judgements about a culture from outside that culture's viewpoint.

P.S. Are you in the Rinzai school of Zen, or another?

Re:All Hooked Up

[DNS-and-BIND]

Not so! The situation started when culturally foreign hooligans attacked beach lifeguards. This fact is usually buried at the end of news stories, and no media outlet has been anxious to publicize it, for obvious reasons.

Re:I wanna chat!

[chawly]

My thought exactly

Re:I'm not surprised

[chawly]

Wallet or not, I don't think they've made a robot that will offer similar compassionate solace. At least not yet.

Re:All Hooked Up

[pario]

You, on the other hand, are exhibiting one of the most irritating traits that I have found in the Japanese people: Writing others' criticisms off as a lack of understanding, other than as a potential source for problem identification.

If you carefully read the first paragraph of my post, you would see that I never said there were no problems in Japanese society. I just simply pointed out your misunderstanding of Japanese foreign policies. I think that the racism against the Korean Japanese is a real problem, and it should be remedied as soon as possible. In fact, I have a sister trying to get married with a Korean Japanese, and I am all in her support despite the extremely strong opposition of my parents.

Fuck 'cultural relativity'. Japanese people actively discriminate against both non-Japanese and people who aren't 'Japanese Enough'; hell, the Japanese news makes it a point to mention it when a *foreigner* commits a crime, even if the criminal isn't really from another country -- they just aren't a Japanese National. This sounds like 'racism' to me, and for a first-world country to engage in it is asinine.

What you referring to here is not really racism because racism technically is a discrimination against people based on racial differences, and foreigners are equally "discriminated" in Japan regardless of their races, which is obvious in the case of the Korean Japanese. My understanding is that the Japanese tend to make strong distinctions between in-group (uchi) and out-group (soto) on any given social levels, and the discrimination against foreigners is just an instance of such in-group favoritism on a national scale. Furthermore, making such a distinction is not necessarily a bad thing, in my humble opinion, since not all foreign influences are good ones. After all, without such an attitude, we had become a colony of a Christian imperial power long before the 20th century. By saying that, I am not insisting that it is OK for us to treat outsiders without respect. I am merely pointing out that it is not making such a distinction but the general maltreatment of outsiders that is at the heart of the problem.

Homogenity? Please; NHK has to *subtitle* the dialogue from thei news broadcasts in Kagoshima, the Okinawans are treated like second-class citizens, and the amount of businesses wholly owned and operated by Korean immigrants is utterly astounding. Japan likes to put on the appearance of being 'homogenous', but the exact opposite is the case -- there is a hell of a lot of social division in Japan, more than even in the U.S., and it causes problems.

First of all, by using the term "homogeneity", I was referring not to linguistic homogeneity but to the shared core values and patterns of behaviors stemming from them. Moreover, such linguistic differences are trivial since the post-war generations all can speak the so-called standard Japanese without much difficulties. I myself is a native speaker of the Nagoya dialect, but I have no problem at all communicating with people from other regions. Secondly, the Okinawans and Korean Japanese are very small groups. In fact, each group comprises less than 1% of the whole population. The situation is very different in the United States, where only 70% of the population is the majority and African Americans, the largest minority group comprises 13% of the population. (By the way, I have no problems at all with these two minority groups in Japan. One of my best college friends is an Okinawan from the Miyako island and I really like my sister's Korean Japanese boyfriend.)

Despite all the negative transference onto me, I wish you the best for the non-trivial endeavour of understanding the Japanese. After all, it is really nice to have somebody who is interested in and tries to understand my own culture, one of the closest things to my heart.

Re:All Hooked Up

[pario]

Interestingly enough, I am a clinical psychologist in training with an interest in cultural antholopology, and I can definitely see the culturally relative nature of the diagnosis of mental illnesses you mentioned in your post. The situation is getting better, I think, with the rising recognition and adoption of multiculturalism in the field of psychology. I hope to contribute in the future to the advancement of multiculturalism in the United States as a researcher and a practitioner.

P.S. Are you in the Rinzai school of Zen, or another?

Yes, I am in the Rinzai school of Zen. I find the tradition interesting precisely because of its emphasis on dropping cognitive distinctions. It is not far-fetched, I think, to say that strong in-group favoritism and the Zen tradition are yin and yang, the two sides of the same coin that is Japanese culture. Fascinating stuff.

Defense against robots...

[Lizzy_Bee]

...if such is ever needed, as in the movie iRobot, would be a simple matter of utilizing electromagnetic pulse (EMP) bombs. Yeah, they'd take out the rest of the electronics infrastructure with 'em, but that'd be a minor inconvenience over out of control hostile robots attacking the human populace.

Re:Recent robotics fair in Japan

[ApolloCreed]

Repliee Q1Expo

The following is from the entry on Fembot.

Bender: You're no femputer. You're a fembot.
Femputer: It's true. I disguised myself as a femputer so I could rule the
Amazonians.
Bender: But why?
Femputer: Why? Why? I came here from a faraway planet - a planet ruled by a
chauvinistic manputer that was really a manbot. Have you any idea
how it feels to be a fembot living in a manbot's manputer's world?
Bender: What?

Re:All Hooked Up

[Jimmy Breeze]

I haven't been on slashdot for a while, but checked back here anyway. I'm aware of that event, but that wasn't the foreigners uprising. That was hooligans. It became a race issue the next Sunday, when 'natives' decided to stand up to the 'imports'.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. People have pretty set ideas about things and I ain't no media outlet. There was some study I heard about once where it seemed to find that the only effective way to change the attitudes of racist male teenagers was to show them pictures of hot foreign girls. Then they thought it was a good idea to let foreigners into their country.

I have a vague opinion that people can get on better if they mingle (though it may take some time), you seem to have a vague opinion that they get on worse if they mingle. People like us will always exist, and always disagree.

Besides, maybe I only think this way because I like foreign girls.

Re:All Hooked Up

[DNS-and-BIND]

Way to respond to a week-old thread, moron. BTW, if you like (submissive) foreign girls, that makes you a male oppressor. Get used to the title, dipshit.