Slashdot Mirror
Sound Quality of the Fifth Generation iPods?
ntropi asks: "As the drive on my old MP3 player (an iRiver H320) grinds toward its last days, I've found myself in search of a new one. Given the options the new iPod seems the best choice, but I'm hesitating somewhat over the murmurings as to the iPod's supposedly poor sound quality. However, while Marc Heijligers has provided a comprehensive breakdown of iPod performance for up to the fourth generation, I have been hard-pressed to find any information on the 5G's performance. With the exception of this CNET review, which reports that 'Audio quality is quite good and probably better than the previous iPod's, with reasonable bass, distinguishable mids, and shiny highs, plus the audio-output power is quite good.', there seems not to have been any detailed analysis of the iPod's output quality. Thus, it seemed a good idea to appeal to the Slashdot hive-mind for its personal experiences with the 5G's playback, or even analyses that people might have done which were simply never put online."
Do they have gapless playback and ReplayGain support yet?
Why does the Slashdot community have to hear about you fretting over some consumer decision? Go to a freaking Apple Store and LISTEN to one. If it sounds good and you care more about image than price, buy it. Soccer moms are capable of this, why aren't you?
If what your looking for is sound quality, go Creative. From all tests as well as straight specs no one can beat their sound quality. But of course their downside is not as pretty an interface as an Ipod. This was the case at least with models from >1 year, I havent checked their specs recently. You can also try checking www.dapreviews.net they tend to have more technical oriented reviews than most places and cover sound quality better than most.
My new one sounds a teeny bit cleaner than my old 3G 40GB.
The issue with the bass rolloff with low impedence phones [IE in ear monitor style] is still there, but not as severe. all that requires is the use of the EQ + mp3/aac gain anyway.
overall i like the way it sounds. i know that probably doesn't help much.
i saw the baby, and the baby looked at me
Go to Apple's site. Read specs on iPod. Go to Apple store. Try out iPod. Don't pester people on Slashdot about it when you have the same resources available we do.
Seriously, are you going to be attaching one to a $10,000 hifi system?
Okay, I know that's a bit much, but it's probably good enough for most people who have a portable player. I expect it beats out anything that you could buy in the 90s. Maybe with high-end headphones there'd be a quality difference, and even then it could be subjective.
Suggestion: Take your headphones down to the electronics store and ask to listen to a comparison. If it is an option, it'd beat out any amount of third party reviews, and comments here intended to misguide you deliberately!
Disclaimer: I own a nano, it's scratched a lot, but I think the sound quality is pretty decent, even when played through my (admittedly not $10,000) hifi separates system. I can't vouch for it comparitively though.
In all likelihood, the quality coming out of the unit itself is not the weakest link. Poor headphones, poor encoding, bad ears, bad listening environment, etc. will all be a factor. Like someone above said, listen to it, if you like it who cares what reviewers say?
I like good speakers for my home theater. But a friend of mine likes his $250 all-in-one setup. It's not that either one of us is wrong, but he gets the quality he wants, and doesn't spend nearly as much as I do.
-dave
/., where "Apple and Google provide Iran with nukes" will be refuted with "But Microsoft is a convicted monopolist"
Only vinyl provides the warmth and depth that the artists really intended --- But Steve Jobs refuses to support vinyl because it won't accomodate DRM.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
I'd first worry about how long the ipod will last. Everyone I know who has an ipod for any length of time (>6 months) has them start breaking down, either a battery issue, or a control wheel issue. One of them has a theory as to why the ipod is so popular: people get their first ipod, love it, while it works, and they then recommend them to all their friends. Their friends get them, and love them, etc. Then the original guy's ipod starts flaking out. By this time, Apple has come out with a new generation of ipods, so the guy decides to upgrade to the new generation, thus starting the cycle all over again.
Anecdotal, yes, but it seems to be pretty universal among the people I know with ipods. *shrug*
iPod's audio quality isn't the best. Its not overly powerful, its quiet on most good quality headphones. I here some faint digital "chatter" in the background, such as noise caused by the hard drive (or so I thought). I still hear this chatter on my Shuffle without any moving parts, so this leads me to believe that its a hardware issue. However, I don't here this chatter on a good quality pair of headphones like Sony DJ's or Sennheiser's, only on the really crappy Apple headphones which are way too tinny for my tastes. Not enough bass comes out of Apple's headphones. I generally have not heard any static or background noise as I have heard from cheaper digital music players.
When you hook the iPod to any good receiver or external speakers, the audio quailty is about as good as any digital media player. A system with good bass and good processing handles the relatively weak output of the iPod well for good overall sound.
The end result is, NO digital media player is for audiophiles, but the iPod is about as good as any. You will get lots of bias feedback saying Apple is the best, or the worst, but its about middle of the road, the digital chatter I hear is annoying only if you like your treble levels high, which most people don't.
In the end, compared to Creative or another comparible price/featured product, I doubt your going to find any of them setting themselves appart greatly in terms of audio quality. Only that the Creative actually uses a real equalizer feature to help fine tune things unlike the cheesy presets Apple uses. In my experience, using ANY iPod preset results in lousy audio quality as their digital audio processing isn't that great and make the music sound overly processed.
Would I not recommend the iPod based on audio quality alone, no. There are a lot more features and benefits using an iPod then a few audio quirks which are mostly overcome using better speakers/headphones. Just that I get sick and tired when people seem to feel that one digital audio player is better sounding the the next, except for really cheap ones, most in the $300 range are comparable, just depends how much bias is behind the person recommending them.
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
For crying out loud. Ipods sound great, as good as any portible audio device I've owned. I listen with good headphones too. Much better the the "walkman" casette players I've owned.
If your an "audiofile" then listen to lossless or a cd or even better "VYNL RECORDS".
The whole point of portable MP3 is to carry as many songs in as small a space. If people wanted perfect CD quality in a portable package they'd buy mini-disc. But they didn't. However people want good->excellent quality and small files.
I've had my ipod over 1.5 years. I listen to it almost every day for 4+ hours. I carry it all over the place. I've dropped it once (on carpet, whew). Still works like a champ.
Ancedotal and useless comment as you yourself pointed out. Why post.
Nope! Minidisc also uses lossless compression, namely ATRAC. IIRC, an MD holds about 140 MB, so the compression ratio is about 20%.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
I just replaced the battery in my 1st generation iPod and it works better than ever (longer battery life than original). How hard was it to do? I bought a replacement battery for $20, which came with the necessary plastic tool to open the iPod. 10 minutes is all it took to replace the battery without marring the case in any way. It was about as hard as putting a SIM card into a cellphone. If I had to replace the $20 battery every three years I don't see a reason to complain. The battery in my cordless phone costs just as much and has to be replaced more often. iPods are very durable portable devices.
The people here will be able to help, its a great place to find out about portable audio/headphones: http://www5.head-fi.org/forums/
I was under the impression the H320 used a standard laptop HD. The latest models even sport 7200rpm and 16mb buffers that might breath some new life into it... unless you're looking for an excuse to get something different. I'm not judging, but I just dropped a Hitachi 100GB 7200rpm w/8mb into my old Archos JBR, and haven't looked back. Not as sleek or shiny as a new Ipod, but with the Rockbox firmware does everything I need.
or without a headphone amp, odds are you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an ipod mini (supposedly the worst sounding ipod) and any of the other offerings, or any iriver/archos alternatives.
h eadphones/sennheiser-hd-555.phph eadphones/sennheiser-hd-595.phpa r-monitor/etymotic-er-6i.phpa r-monitor/etymotic-er-4p.php
iPods are mainly for portable music, most of the time music on the move doesn't need audiophile reproduction, and even the cheapest MP3 players offer very decent music quality.
If you are mulling over splashing out so you can get GREAT sound quality from an iPod, just concentrate on the parts that count, the headphones. A pair of sennheiser or etymotics will set you back just half the price of an iPod and will make a stunning difference to sound quality.
http://www.headphone.com/products/headphones/all-
http://www.headphone.com/products/headphones/all-
http://www.headphone.com/products/headphones/in-e
http://www.headphone.com/products/headphones/in-e
The iPod audio support includes AIFF, Apple Lossless and WAV. So if you want serious fidelity you can put your CDs on your iPod without any sound degradation. Then the quality of the audio jack and the headphones really matter. Sure, you won't be able to have as many songs but you will get the purest audio compared to CD source material.
Being that it's all mp3 technology, the difference should be negligible. And trust me...if the sound was THAT much different from one generation to another, we'd definitely hear about it. Apple can't even fart now without it being all over the Internet. A screen on the iPod scratches easily? Class action suits abound! If the sound had deteriorated, there would be hell to pay. Thus...go buy it and enjoy your new iPod.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts...for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang
Proof? Hook up your iPod to a real sound system and blast it through a concert hall. YIKES!
You will truly not believe it. I cannot hear the difference between normal audio equipment but when it is amplified by the kind of equipment that can blow fuses you really do hear that is not a complete sound.
So what does it sound like really? Well it sounds exactly like those really really cheap radios you used to get free with things amplified in a drum.
So asking wether an iPod sounds good is a stupid question. All DAP players suck because the content they reproduce sucks. The hardware itself also doesn't have the quality needed either.
BUT DOES THIS MATTER. No.
It is not meant to be played to a thousand people, it is meant to power a couple of small earbud speakers and considering all the limitations involved both in the hardware and in you it is okay. Yeah sure some people will swear that they can hear the difference between Player X and Player Y well good luck to them. For the majority of people there is no difference and if you need to ask you are one of those people. Do not try to claim you are audiofreak by asking other people. Audiofreaks never listen to other people.
Note that the above is a bit extreme, you can do a successfull presentation from a laptop with powerpoint and mp3 audio but you are pushing it. Do not play music this way to an audio fanatics audience. Please note that their is also a hell of difference between the sound needed for a presentation and that for the party afterwards. If you think of holding one afterwards check with the sound engineer before and ask if the setup is small enough to be played from your sound source. They don't mind if you ask not simply tell them to do it and then complain it sounds bad. They are used to people thinking consumer hardware is good enough. Personally I had to explain more then once that a companies own top of the line projector was just not going to cut it for a conference hall. Their can be carried in a suitcase. Ours sits in a large trunk and can only be lifted with hydraulics.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Despite to the raves I read here on slashdot, the ipod was a HUGE disappointment for me - I guess I'm not the target audience. I'm more concerned about sound quality and features than the fancy click-wheel. Give me something that I can figure out easily (the W800 works while the phone is switched off, providing 30h long playback. The ipod mini's battery life sucked big time as well), is small, has at least 2Gb space, and doesn't need a separate program just to copy files to it. W800 provides me with that - and much much more (actually, the camera is pretty good as well). Yeah, I'm absolutely anti-ipod. So my advice is: don't buy an ipod. Buy something much much better for the same money. If you don't need a new phone, buy a player that supports ogg and flac (not just crappy mp3s - without gapless playback support! and AACs). The ipod is overrated.
Here's a photo of my H120 (same form factor as the H320, unless I'm mistaken) next to a Hitachi laptop hard drive. Unfortunately, the H120 is too small (especially in width) to contain the drive. It's a shame, too, because I love my H120 so much I don't know what I'd do if the drive failed and I couldn't replace it.
Where do you live that you have to drive several hundred miles to find a store that sells iPods? You don't live near a 6th Avenue Electronics, Boscovs, Bose, Brandsmart,Circuit City, Crutchfield, Electronic Express, Fred Meyer, HH Greggs, J&R, Longs, Meijer, Mobile Planet, Musicland, PC Richards, Radio Shack, RCS EXPERIENCE, Rite Aid, Sam's, Shopko, Sharper Image, Target, Tweeter or Wal-Mart?
i am enjoying my fifth gen ipod. headphones are the key to quality. but linux support is flakey. amarok, for example, crashes regularly, taking the contents with it. gtkpod is ok, as is yamipod, but both crash on occasions. none of them get podcasts into the podcast dir, let alone sync photos or video in anyway. and before people gripe about manual transfer, hey, if revolting itunes can do it, why not linux? linux does everything else i need...but i am sure that the issues i am having will change as more people take it on:)
Nothing - well thats something.
I can't speak from personal experience, but Computer Shopper UK gives the 60GB fifth-generation iPod a so-so review. You'll have to search their site for it, as I can't give you a deep link. Their main beef: "we noticed distorted bass when using many of the presets. This was most noticeable on dance and hip-hop tracks with a prominent drumbeat and happened irrespective of listening volume. ... [W]e expect exceptional sound quality from a £300 MP3 player, and in this respect the iPod disappoints."
So , your listioning to MP3's then huh ?
Then why are you concerened about sound quality
if your serious about listioning to good sound quality
then you would be listioning to a CD walkman.
We are Dead Stars looking back Up at the Sky
I bought HD-580's for my iPod and had to buy an amp shortly aftererwards. I needed to crank up the iPod so high that the sound really suffered. Things have been great since the amp arrived. In short, once you replace the weak link of the headphones, the next weakest link, the amp, becomes annoyingly obvious.
I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
I can't really tell the difference. I can hear the difference between 128kbps and 160kbps mp3s but not between my 2 iPods but I usually use the standard earbuds. I just ordered a set of Sony MDR-EX81LP in-ear headphones so maybe I could when I get them but honestly I'm more worried about scratching my screen then sound. Depends on what you'll be hooking your 5G up to.
My Hello World is 512 bytes. But it's also a valid Fat12 boot sector, Fat12 file reader, and Pmode routine.
I just checked the specs. It uses a 1.8" drive. They're not quite up to the performance of a newer 2.5" but it should be doable. And just imagine the sense of satisfaction you will feel by increasing the longevity of your favorite device. :)
Hi-MD disks can store 1G of uncompressed PCM.
...there is no sig...
I've found the fifth generation iPod to be a very solid product. Needing to use iTunes to add music is a weakness, but even on Windows it's a good program, so it's not a big weakness. Battery life could be better but I've never had it run out on me on the road; just be close to a charger if you're planning on watching more than a few hours of video. I used to take it to school and watch Doctor Who between classes, then charge it over USB during classes with computers handy. I could get through several episodes before it died. The meter runs down faster than the battery, but resets itself to accuracy when I power cycle or change through the menus.
As far as sound quality goes, I've got no complaints. It sounds great with my headphones (I like the Rio Carbon's, and TDK makes a great set with an in-line volume controller), great over an FM transmitter or through the tape adapter in my car, and great on my home system, even pumped up. I wouldn't DJ at a big club with it, but mostly because you can't scratch. If they let you scratch the audio with that nice wheel, I'd be in heaven.
Ah, you're an "audiophile". For the best sound-quality, I recommend that you get the new deoxidized monster ultraTHX speakerphone cable. It will really increase the "warmth" of the music. We also have in stock a specially shielded cable you can run between the battery and the unit, to remove interference from the battery. And we also have these practical spikes to mount your ipod on, that will reduce vibration from the ground... Moreover, if you open your ipod, and use a green felt pen around the case of the harddisk, it will improve the sound-quality a lot!
Personally, I think the sound quality of most portable audio players are more than adequate for a portable audio player. What I really want is a portable disk-based audio-player that has a completely normal USB harddisk interface to the computer, and that supports ogg vorbis, musepack, flac, and other common formats. But I guess there's no market for that, people really want to limit their choices to the iTunes I guess, and never have a need for portable harddisks in the same unit...
The review is at http://www.stereophile.com/digitalsourcereviews/93 4/index.html.
"The iPod's measured behavior is better than many CD players--ironic, considering that most of the time it will be used to play MP3 and AAC files, which will not immediately benefit from such good performance. But if you're willing to trade off maximum playing time against the ability to play uncompressed AIFF or WAV files, the iPod will do an excellent job of decoding them. Excellent, cost-effective audio engineering from an unexpected source.--John Atkinson"
What they should be doing is a proper analysis of the iPod's output. In other words, take a sample track; encode it; decode it again, to provide your baseline data; play it through the iPod, capturing the result with a high-quality, known-good A/D converter; and then comparing the result the the baseline data. This will give you an actual response curve that lets you talk about the audio quality in genuine, objective, numerical terms. If it's any good, it should be flat.
(Actually, has anyone done this? I'd be interested to see the result.)
Using crap like 'shiny' just makes you sound like one of those lunatic audiophiles who buys solid silver power cables and draws green lines around their CDs. You don't want to go there.
Well I dont expect it to sound anywhere near the monitors in our studio or my home stereo system but I did notice I dont have to turn my new up as much as my old 1G to hear it.. My old 10GB was always cranked to get some nice sound that didnt get drowned out by the outside.. The new black 30GB i just got works at about half the level the other one did.. Other than that couldnt really tell if one sounds better.. Hell theyre still aac/mp3s being played through some tiny ass headphones.. Dont expect some $1000 Bose system in your ear and youll be just fine..
FWIW I just got a 5th gen video iPod, and while I'm no audiophile it sounds just as good (or better) as my discman did, or as plugging the earbuds into my SB Audigy 2. I can, however, hear the difference between a 192K CBR and a 320K file. If the source file sounds like crap, then so will the iPod.
640YB ought to be enough for anybody.
You can claim what you want about the quality of ATRAC, but it is not lossless compression.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
I think you meant to say "Minidisc also uses LOSSY compression.." MD encoding in ATRAC is substantially less quality than CD.
The worse mp3 player will sound better than the best one if you use good headphones and good audio files (44.1Khz / 16bits losslessly compressed).
The player itself is not so important.
Alexis 'jeriqo' BRET
Comment removed based on user account deletion
ATRAC is lossy but Hi-MD can record and store uncompressed PCM.
...there is no sig...
I guess I am a graybeard now, I remember recording an FM signal off the radio, onto a casette tape (magnetized particles, young'ins! and we liked it!)... trying to get a clean 'rip' without the DJ trampling the beginning or end (impossible)... futzing with levels to hit that magical peak 0dB (but not too much over!)... applying Dolby B 'noise reduction'.... all of this took, usually, an entire afternoon to assemble one good tape. Which your buddy's car deck would then eat the next day.
Not that I miss any of that really, but now its 'Transcode the file from AAC to MP3?!? My ears would BLEED, such a thing is beyond the pale! Were you raised in a cave?'
Of course, a lot of it is bullshit. There are true audiophiles and then there are those who just want to know that they have The Best. These are the people who have $10k stereos that don't notice when the entire left channel disappears at a club. I find its usually me and maybe one or two other people in the vicinity who looked shocked when that happens... the rest have no idea....
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
Why don't you get a new hard drive for your iRiver instead. I have an even older generation H140 and it's still going strong. It seems pretty indestructable to me. Only reason to get an iPod would be better car stereo integration.
& highlight=toshiba
This Misticriver thread mentions replacing the 20GB harddisk with a 30GB Toshiba disk for $125:
http://www.misticriver.net/showthread.php?t=34516
X.
What's with everyone being so angry about this post? If you're not interested, then ignore it! Why the rage?
I found that my iPod would drive the 580s to reasonable listening levels without any real problem. If you NEEDED an amp, it's virtually certain that you're listening to the music too loud, and damaging your hearing.
That said, an amp is a very good idea on 580s. They're wonderful headphones, but they're high-impedance... 300 ohms. The iPod, like most devices, is designed to drive about 30. You can still get pretty good volume out of it, and it still sounds pretty good, but the clarity and bass will perk right up when you add an amp to that combo. (at least if you have good quality sources... 128k mp3 won't improve much.)
You'll get better sound, by the way, if you use the line out on the dock to drive your amp, rather than the headphone jack.
see iaudio. many of their players support ogg, and they appear as a normal usb drive to the computer.
If you care about sound quality, throw away the supplied earbuds. A pair of Sennheiser PX100s for $30 will offer an immediate improvement in both sound quality and noise insulation.
Next step after that is to get a headphone amp; it's not really worth spending more than $30 on headphones otherwise. You can get an Xin mini, which is smaller than the iPod and will happily drive full-size Sennheisers using 3xAAA cells. You'll be amazed at the difference it makes. Do spring for the crossover circuit to convert stereo to binaural.
Once I did that, I was rather embarrassed to find that the iPod competed quite well with my full-sized harman/kardon CD player.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
great post... "Audiofreaks never listen to other people" is truth. every single aspect of that post was right on. educate the people! thanks!
If your an "audiofile" then listen to lossless or a cd or even better "VYNL RECORDS".
Vinyl exhibits some really difficult to remedy problems. First of all, TWO channels are encoded into ONE analog track. This causes terrible channel seperation (you can hear the left channel in the right and vice versa) and also kills to some degree the stereo effect. That analog encoding and then decoding of two channels into one also has the undesired effect of adding more distortion and noise, typically done in the analog domain for these so called "purists". The more you play a vinyl album, the more you loose the high frequencies. The reason for this, is that above about 15kHz gets RUBBED AWAY by the needle more and more each time you play it. The needle gets VERY hot from friction against the moving vinyl and if you are silly enough to stop the player before picking the needle arm up off the vinyl, the needle MELTS a small hole into the track where it has stopped. That causes a pop the next time you play that point of the album.
To get super high quality out of vinyl, you have to spend MEGA bucks and still not come close to a top end CD player.
I strongly reject the idea of audiophiles having "golden ears". I think in reality, audiophile is really another word for arrogant.
Years ago I saw some audiophile dorks on television, testing out the idea that CD's should be placed in the freezer prior to listening. The theory was that when they were manufactured, cracks in the plastic form due to changes in temperature. They claim that freezing the CD's brought these cracks back together and got rid of errors in the digital audio. So here we could see a bunch of dorks on a lounge, listening to some frozen CD and some nodding together agreeingly to some perceived higher quality.
I wish I could have been in that room to ask them why the hell this issue does not create great problems for CDROM media.
It is all about perception.
The whole point of portable MP3 is to carry as many songs in as small a space. If people wanted perfect CD quality in a portable package they'd buy mini-disc. But they didn't. However people want good->excellent quality and small files.
Mini-disc uses lossy compression.
BTW, I can hold about 60 uncompressed albums on my iRiver H340 as it stands now. If I had double the HDD size, I would probably decide to just put my whole collection on it uncompressed. For me and I imagine many others, the whole point of portable MP3 is to carry MY entire collection. If I could fit it as uncompressed or lossless compressed, I would.
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
The newer generation iPods (the "2nd generation" iPod mini, the iPod nano, and the color iPods) DO have a significant flaw in MP3 playback that the Slashdot crowd is likely to be concerned with. You will not find this info in the iPod specs nor will you discover it by trying out an iPod at your local store. You will quite possibly find out when you start playing your own MP3 library on the device.
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If you use LAME "alt preset standard" to encode your MP3 library (this configuration is widely believed optimal in that it produces very good sound quality at a reasonable bitrate) the newer generation iPods often have difficulty playing these VBR MP3 files when running from battery power. The flaw is essentially a type of "stuttering" or dropout that occurs during playback. The newer iPods apparently throttle the CPU clock to conserve battery power and if the MP3 bitrate ramps up too quickly this stuttering results. There is a thread about this on the Hydrogen Audio forms. It seems this has been known for quite some time but Apple has yet to release firmware updates that resolve this issue.
I started out using the 192k VBR MP3 encoder built into iTunes but noticed coding artifacts on some material. As an experiment, I thought I would try the LAME encoder to see if I could achieve better sound quality using preset standard. I think there is an improvement using LAME (no coding artifacts that I could hear so far) however the stuttering that results on some material is really pretty nasty.
I have both a 2nd gen iPod mini and an iPod nano so I can confirm that this is real and does happen on these units. The thread on the Hydrogen Audio forms seems to indicate that other current generation iPods have this problem also. I can live with the "scratching" issue on the nano (trust me, it is real.) However, the fact that the iPod doesn't work fully as an *MP3 player* kind of bothers me. The Hydrogen Audio thread is here:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?sho
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/lofiversion/i
Have you looked at the specs of the headphones you are using?
If they're low impedance (16 ohms, sometimes even 32 ohms), try switching to headphones with a higher impedance, or use an external headphone amp.
There's a good chance the clipping will disappear even if you listen at higher volume levels - from what I've heard the biggest problem with iPod sound quality is that the amp has insufficient current handling capability.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Even if the original poster lives near an Apple store or other iPod-carrying retailer, do you realize how idiotic your advice is?
Hint: Think about the kind of listening environment that a busy Apple store presents. Especially since Apple stores are usually located in shopping malls.
Same goes for many other brick and mortar stores such as Best Buy. Circuit City is an exception, as most CC stores I've seen do actually have sound-isolated listening booths for demonstrating some of what they sell. That said, I don't think any CC is set up so that you can demo iPods in those booths, just the higher end home theater and car audio stuff.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
the only thing that matters is the SN ratio. which differs slim to none on MP3 players. and doesn't even make a real differense, unless your planning on using plug / noise isolating earbuds. the iPod default earbuds are bad, and that's the only real complaint about its sound quality. the solution to this is: buy new earbuds w/ the iPod
To sum up, if you use unsupported software with your iPod, you get unpredictable results. I'm crying for you guys.
There are other options for earbuds, depending on how much you want to pay. From the reviews I've read, the Shure in-ear phones might be one of the better-value options, but I can't afford them yet, so I don't have any first-hand experience of them.
I've mentioned my opinion of the in-ear option supplied by Apple in previous posts, so I won't go into any more detail than to say don't touch it. I should have taken more notice of the Cnet reviews, but caveat emptor.
WTF kind of attitude is that?
If a device claims to play MP3 audio (including MP3 VBR, go check the Apple specs!) and I pass it a valid MP3 stream, I fully expect that device to play the file (without stuttering!)
These exact same files play correctly on other MP3 players (both hardware and software based) The iPod will play these files correctly *IF* it is attached to external power! The problem only occurs when the iPod is running from battery power. This is clearly a bug in the iPod firmware and it should be corrected.
So, after replacing the firmware and installing a new hard drive, you have something that's better than an iPod?
Wow. And people wonder why I switched to Macs...
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
How spoiled we have become. The shuffle is unbelievably small, holds a gig, weights less than most jewelry and the sound is good. Unthought of just few years ago. The push is for very portable music not the highest sound quality. If Apple was concerned only about sound they could easily make a large iPod with high quality sound that would need to be moved around in a backpack. When I bought my shuffle the only surprise for me was how close it came to sounding as good as a full size iPod.
My karma is getting better everyday.
The people at Computer Shopper obviously know nothing about audio if you they are complaining about distortion after increasing the bass while listening to bass heavy music. Thats what is supposed to happen. If you get distortion when the EQ is turned off, chances are the source material is distorted.
I haven't compared the 5g ipod to any other portable devices except $70 a cd/mp3 player from Sony, and I'd say the audio quality is much greater than that device. The ipod sounds better than a lot of entry level component home audio equipment, though it's still not top of the line. The fact that the output comes from a headphone jack as opposed to 2 analog cables or 1/4" plugs means you will get line noise, and all the electronics that close together is begging for interference, though I haven't noticed anything in the two weeks i've owned it.
My higher bitrate (192+) mp3s sound just fine coming out of my home system which includes a sub woofer and 2 large bookshelf speakers (ie not some typical computer speaker setup).
I was even surprised with the the ear buds; everyone makes fun of them but they are definitely the highest quality ear buds i've ever owned. They don't match speakers that cover your ears but they are completely acceptable for everything I've played so far. My preferred genre is drum and bass and the bass is well reproduced on the little buds. I was expecting for the bass to roll off around 100Hz or higher but it kicks all the way down to the sub bass frequencies.
Bottom line is the audio is fine. It's certainly better than most portable music devices of the past, and unless you have a card better than a soundblaster it probably even sounds better than mp3s out of your computer.
Yeah, I did mean lossy, of course :)
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
> measured behavior is better than many CD players--ironic, considering that most
> of the time it will be used to play MP3 and AAC files
I might be wrong, but I'd consider the measured behavior of an MP3-Player is more important than the one of a plain CD-Player.
The psychoaccoustical model that is used to compress the audio makes some guesses about what an average person is able to hear/recognize.
At playback time additional distortion does spoil this efforts and might make the lossy compression way more recognicable by the listener.
Same goes with hearing problems by the listener - if your hearing is bad, you might recognize more of the compression.
It's like this boy/girl you picked up at the bar the evening - just don't change the lightning conditions when you take him/her home and you'll have a fine night !-)
k2r
(waiting for my 4GB ipod nano, my Rio broke finally)
Check the Portable Audio forum at Head-Fi. General opinion seems to be that the 5G is the best iPod so far, but you may need an amp to get the best from your headphones.
Never mind Spamassassin. When's Spammerassassin coming out?
I recently bit the bullet and decided to buy an iPod. Went all over the place looking for one near Christmas, finally found the only one in town, the new 60 gig video.
The price tag is a bit high ($400'ish as the time, I'm sure you can get them cheaper) but in my opinion it has been worth it. The sound quality is just fine and I'm able to blast my music without a hitch. Additionally, you can compress videos in a manner to get decent sound quality given you have enough space to do so. I've got about 8 movies on mine with decent quality.
But really, as someone mentioned earlier, unless you're hooking your iPod up to a commercial grade tower or something ridiculous, you probably won't have any problems with the new generation of iPods. They're built well, don't seem to have too much trouble when dropped, and iTunes is a vast improvement over other products like Windows Media Player.
I've never wondered why you switched to Macs... but if the haughty tone of your post is any indication, I'd say it was because you're lazy, like to be spoon fed, and just generally like to push your opinion on others. Perhaps you meant it differently?
I never said it was better than an Ipod, just that it did everything I need. I replaced the firmware because something better was available. I'm guessing you're using OSX. Do you even miss OS9? Hard drives die and music collections grow. It's one of the bittersweet facts of life. Upgrading/replacing the HD is a viable and inexpensive solution for those who who either prefer to do it themselves / can't afford to replace the whole unit / are too cheap to lay out the cash. There's nothing wrong with any of those reasons.
There's also nothing wrong with going out and buying the latest and greatest either, but spare me your contempt because I chose to continue using a device which still serves me well and allows me to get under the hood a bit. I like to tinker with my stuff. I use Linux. I don't care if people wonder why.
What's all this "iPod" nonsense?
You mean something came out that's better than my Diamond Rio500?
I wish I could have been in that room to ask them why the hell this issue does not create great problems for CDROM media.
To be completely fair, CD-ROM and CD-AUDIO are very different formats. The CD-AUDIO format has a very basic error recovery layer in the protocol. The CD-ROM format has another layer of much more extensive error correction on top of that. CD-AUDIO, although digital, is not close to being "bit-perfect", because its generally assumed that you'd rather hear an interpolated sample instead of hearing an audible break as the CD player goes and tries to fix a read-error.
That said, the "freezing the media" thing is probably crap.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Defensive much? I never indicted your choices...simply pointed out that mine were different. As far as your ad hominem attack, you can stick it.
There are absolutely things I miss about OS9. I prefer its user interface to OSX, although OSX has some very nice features, and I vastly prefer it to other operating environments.
You don't have my contempt...I just don't share your values. I think that replacing the firmware in order to get a workable user interface is a ridiculous thing to expect a customer to do. I like to tinker and build stuff, but when I buy something, I want it to be well-designed and well-engineered. That's what I'm paying for.
You might want to do something about that chip on your shoulder. It will not improve your life.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Hello Pot? This is the Kettle. You're black.
But in the spirit of one-upmanship, my chip is equally as large as yours.
As for my attack, consider it stuck. This is Slashdot after all. You can't expect to give without a little take.
So I take it back. You're not lazy. The energy you've devoted here proves that. And I'm certain you're not spoon fed. That was a cheap shot. I mean, at one point you were. We all were. But not now. Anyone as articulate as you appear to be must be more than capable of feeding themselves. With spoons or any other utensil you choose.
I'll stick with my assessment of the opinion thing though.
But seriously, values and consumer elitism aside, considering that the Archos JBR was one of the first of its kind, the fact that the firmware is both user upgradable and programmable means that it is well designed and well engineered. The original firmware worked just fine. I liked what I had, I just wanted more of it. I chose to upgrade the firmware. It wasn't necessary. But it was easy to do, which is more than I can say about customizing some of the devices out there.
I also add aftermarket products to my car. Is it necessary? No. The original wheels looked and performed just fine. But I wanted more. Were they poorly designed and engineered? For NASCAR, yes... fotunately I don't race much, but when I want and need that extra bit more that they can provide, the new wheels and tires are there for me. I pay for the ability and choice to do what I want, how I want, with my purchase. And if it's well designed and well engineered, I'll even pay extra.
So while you push your opinion I'll continue to stand up for mine.
You're really enjoying this oppressed martyr character you're playing. Whatever works for you, buddy...
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Wow. You're really very angry, aren't you?
It's a shame we can't be friends, but I have enjoyed our discussion. Though I'm not sure where the martyr bit comes from. I was just explaining myself, as were you.
Although I admit to having a bit of fun at your expense (for which I apologized), I was trying to have a reasonable conversation with you. I felt you were a bit opinionated so I pointed it out. So what? I'm opinionated too. We all are. It's Slashdot.
Take it easy... (As in, "see ya later". Not, "chill". I'd never tell you what to do.)
You really do need a hug, don't you? C'mere, big guy. It'll be OK.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
:) I haven't laughed that hard in a while. *wipes a tear* Touché.
So we're good now?
If you hear chatter on your ipod, listen closely to it and call Homeland Security. You may be listening in on terrorist plans....
All good, dude. Play nice with others. : )
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
"...TWO channels are encoded into ONE analog track."
... or you could just encode everything digitally at 24/96, and exceed both the resolution of the source material and of the human hearing system by so much that anyone who was still unsatisfied could be quite definitively considered to be a lunatic.
Well, that's an oversimplification. Two separate audio tracks are recorded, with their waveforms impressed into the walls of a two-sided groove - like a valley. If the walls of this groove are at 45 degrees from the vertical, then they are at 90 degrees from each other and thus are orthogonal. If the stylus which tracks in the groove has two axes of sensitivity, also at 90 degrees from each other, then in theory any variation normal to one wall of the groove will result in no perturbation of the sensor for the other wall. The reality is much more complicated, of course. Any error in orthogonality at any point will result in crosstalk, effectively a reduction of stereo separation. Crosstalk in the magnetics of the cartridge, resonances or unsufficient rigidity in the stylus, etc., etc. - you could think up error sources for days, and still not get all of them that vinyl engineers worry about. Here is a fairly informative link, for those interested.
Possibly interesting aside: the entire point of the RIAA filter (well, half of the point) was to reduce the possibility that heavy bass encoded (monaurally) into both walls would cause the needle to literally pop out of the groove, and so the signal going down to vinyl has reduced bass content which is then corrected post-cartridge. High frequencies are boosted on the vinyl in an effort to improve S/N, lifting the smaller variations up above the noise floor caused by dust, scratches, and the granularity of the vinyl itself.
However, there is no analog encoding of two signals into one, at least not electrically. Two physical channels are maintained throughout, albeit poorly separated. There's simply no effective way to maintain proper separation for physical reasons.
The net effect is that stereo separation and frequency response linearity of vinyl are known weaknesses in the medium. One possible improvement for the separation issue might be to use a square channel like 78's used. You'd recode the L, R signals into L+R and L-R just like FM radio, and then record the L+R (mono) part as lateral displacement of the groove. You'd then embed the L-R (stereo separation) part of the signal as the vertical displacement of the bottom of the groove. This has the advantage of putting the part of the signal with the least bass (bass is typically more monaural, especially in vinyl, and the L-R signal will cancel a great deal of that) in the part of the physical medium where it's less likely to result in mistracking, and leave the mono part (which typically has much more bass) in the part of the medium where it can't cause mistracking. You'd probably lose some track time, though, as you'd have to space the tracks further apart for bass-heavy material. When recovering, you then recombine the L+R and L-R signals to get L and R, with the bonus of dramatically improved stereo separation and possibly the elimination of the RIAA filter altogether...
Ce n'est pas un vrai mouvement de robot!
Do you have any recommendations for 'normal' earphones? Something around the size of the normal iPod ones. I like the improved quality of the earplug-style (ER-6 etc) ones, but I find them too uncomfortable to wear - my ears get itchy and hot after 30 minutes of using them. I don't really fancy lugging around the huge over-ear type either, though.
I bought one for my wife. The sound quality is pretty good, but the attached headphones are horrible, really cheaply made. I listened to it with my Grado SR 80 headphones after changing the equalizer to "Rock", and it sounded pretty decent, with good bass and mid. However, I could also hear some "ticks", which I believe were caused by the hard drive.
That's only true for Yellow Book Mode 1. Mode 2, like Playstation discs, doesn't use Layered ECC.
With great power comes great fan noise.
My iPod video sounds a hell of a lot better than my iPod mini ever did, and much better than either of my Creative players.
the pjbox I have sounds really nice compared to the Ipod... but then again it was selling for 900 bucks back in the day.
I didn't pay that and I haven't regretted owning it. My wife has an ipod I bought her, but the pjbox still is hooked to the stereo.
my PJ-Box rules... still working after more than 5 years. no problems. I would have expected the hard drive to go long before now and I use it almost every day.