iTunes is Malware?

Big Brother and the iTunes Company by eldavojohn · 2006-01-11 05:47 · Score: 3, Interesting

All companies want to market their products to you as effectively and automatically as possible. With the sudden rise in data mining tools such as this, what's a big corporation to do but hop on the bandwagon?

You may remember that Amazon even patented a similar technique. And I've always suspected my local grocery store of profiling me. Afterall, I hand them a little tag on my keychain for my discount, they scan it and suddenly my name is on the reciept. I'd be naive to think they aren't generating statistics about me and secretly making note that I buy far more long grain wild rice than the average consumer.

So what's the problem here? The problem is that I don't like it. I don't want a computer program diagnosing me at a hospital even if it is built on solid Bayesian probability models and I don't want a profile of my musical tastes being generated on a company's database. My taste in music is my business and I don't want other people knowing that my most listened to album is Tom Dooley and Other Hits by The Kingston Trio.

All I've learned from this is that a big company is a big company whether it's Microsoft, Sony, Apple or Google.

From the article:

Apple has overstepped its limits, and this spyware (because it sends information to a server) and adware (because it displays information to attempt to sell you products) is a very serious breach of the trust I have long had in Apple's products.

Oh, come now, you're telling me you've trusted Apple? What has Apple done to gain your trust? They're a profitable corporation and that's where their interests lie. How to get the moneys from your hands to theirs as efficiently as possible.

The only thing that makes me sad about this is that local bands still lose out because I doubt they'll ever make recommendations unless tens of thousands of users are showing that association. I wish Apple would make a service called halfTunes that sold songs at 50 or 25 or free for bands that are looking for exposure, not profits.

--
My work here is dung.

Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by IAmTheDave · 2006-01-11 05:49 · Score: 2, Insightful

I don't know about all stores online, but the e-commerce site I run keeps a database of purchases for both my own book-keeping and customer support needs (like, track a shippment, order history.) The data is already there, I don't understand how it becomes spyware when the data is mined to look for similar music that might match what you already have purchased through the store.

--
Excuse my speling.
Making The Bar Project
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by tgd · 2006-01-11 05:50 · Score: 4, Informative

And I've always suspected my local grocery store of profiling me. Afterall, I hand them a little tag on my keychain for my discount, they scan it and suddenly my name is on the reciept. I'd be naive to think they aren't generating statistics about me and secretly making note that I buy far more long grain wild rice than the average consumer.

Suspected? Secretly? They make no secret about it. What do you think those cards are for? They offer you discounts in return for your demographic information and purchasing habits. They print coupons after your sale based on it too. Its not some grand secret conspiracy.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-11 05:54 · Score: 2, Funny

My taste in music is my business and I don't want other people knowing that my most listened to album is Tom Dooley and Other Hits by The Kingston Trio.

Then you better stop blasting it out of your riced up Honda Civic's pathetic Optimus audio system at 3:00am you worthless piece of marmoset dung!
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by eldavojohn · 2006-01-11 06:02 · Score: 2, Funny

The chip that CowboyNeal put in my brain goes off.

The tube that CmdrTaco put in my neck to feed me is filled with coffee.

--
My work here is dung.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by Moby+Cock · 2006-01-11 06:02 · Score: 3, Insightful

The song you are listening to may NOT have been purchased through iTMS. They are monitoring your library of songs that have been obtained in other manners and keeping record of them too. That is spyware.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by Hawthorne01 · 2006-01-11 06:04 · Score: 5, Funny

Which is why when signing up for my discount card, I listed myself as a 60 year old lady with an address in a retirement center.

Makes me wonder what happens in their data centers when I make a late-night beer run... :-)

--
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by Politburo · 2006-01-11 06:08 · Score: 4, Funny

Oh, come now, you're telling me you've trusted Apple? What has Apple done to gain your trust?

Why, their motto, of course! After all with a motto like Don't be Ev... whoops.. I'll come back next article.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by Ghostx13 · 2006-01-11 06:12 · Score: 5, Insightful

Right from www.apple.com/itunes "while you're browsing your own music, the MiniStore will automatically show you more music from your favorite artists that you can find at the iTunes Music Store." If you don't like it, don't use it. It's not being deceptive about what it does, which is why it's not spyware. You didn't bother reading what the software clearly states it does, and now your mad about it. How does that make sense.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by C0rinthian · 2006-01-11 06:13 · Score: 3, Insightful

I wish Apple would make a service called halfTunes that sold songs at 50 or 25 or free for bands that are looking for exposure, not profits.
And why do you think bands are looking for exposure? Exposure means more customers. More customers means more profits.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by Saige · 2006-01-11 06:15 · Score: 2, Interesting

So what's the problem here? The problem is that I don't like it. I don't want a computer program diagnosing me at a hospital even if it is built on solid Bayesian probability models and I don't want a profile of my musical tastes being generated on a company's database. My taste in music is my business and I don't want other people knowing that my most listened to album is Tom Dooley and Other Hits by The Kingston Trio.

It's not like recommendations by a program are a life or death decision like the hospital program you mention, and it's not like they can make you like the music just because they recommend it to you. The worst thing that happens? Their recommendations system is poor and you realize they're useless and start ignoring them.

BTW, music tracking can be very useful for those of us who actually want to expand our musical horizons. Last.fm is all about tracking a user's music and creating profiles, and guess what? Best thing I ever did as far as music goes. I've found a ton of new stuff and am enjoying music a lot more than I used to. Something I'd miss out on if I was too busy creating tinfoil hats to protect me from evil companies that can control my mind cause they know what I listen to.

To be fair, I agree that it's not a good thing for them to be sending music data like that without at least informing the user what's happening and asking if they want it turned off first. If they made users turn it on, and told them it would send data when active, I can't see how anyone could complain about the feature.

--
"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by croddy · 2006-01-11 06:25 · Score: 5, Insightful

Usually, the way to handle something like this is to leave the feature disabled, unless you've asked the user or they explicitly enable it. The problem is that it is enabled by default, without asking the user.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by BearRanger · 2006-01-11 06:27 · Score: 2, Informative

A couple of things about the ministore: iTunes apparently only uses the "Artist" info to determine what you're playing, and suggest similar tunes. It does this for ALL music in your library, not just items that you've purchased from the iTunes Music Store. This is why it appears that the ministore doesn't change if the next item in your playlist is also from the same artist. If the artist info is blank, the ministore shows the default page, which appears to be the top downloads of the day. As others have said, this can be easily turned off. Since you're not signed into the Music Store (indeed, you don't even need to have an account at the Music Store) it's very likely there's no personal information being collected. So in reality this more like adware than spyware. If it entices you to create an account at the Music Store and make a purchase, Apple will gain something. (And so will you, as you'll have new music you may not have been aware of) If you turn it off, it's no different from earlier versions of iTunes.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by Ghostx13 · 2006-01-11 06:33 · Score: 4, Insightful

If the user bothered to read the features list they would know it was there. You're absolving the end user from personal responsibility. The information was there, but the users were too lazy to bother reading anything about the product they were using. The American public is used to being spoon fed everything and it's led us to being fat and lazy. Personal responsibility folks. It's not that difficult of a concept.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by Jboy_24 · 2006-01-11 06:41 · Score: 5, Interesting

I once signed my real name and number on one of those, and I got zilch that I could tell was from filling it out. No mail, no phonecalls ... nothing.

But as I've read more about the grocery store industry I'm thinking more and more that those 'club' cards aren't much about tracking consumers as in identifying the gross number of unique shoppers that use the club card.

The reason being, is that the way grocery stores work is a little counter-intuitive. You would think that some shopper for safeway goes out, finds some variety of products , then places them on the shelves in such a way that the more profitable are chest level.

The actual mechanics are much more complex. Food suppliers will actually pay money to have their products on the ends of the isles, in the best position on the space. I'm pretty sure there's a little buying and selling on the part of Safeway, but I suspect the real situation is more like the suppliers are renting the space out to put their products on.

The store brand then is the way the store makes money on the actual product not on just the shelf space.

Therefore, the club cards are something that safeway charges for. Products become club specials, not when safeway finds a crate going bad, or found a good deal, but when the supplier pays safeway to put them on the club. So, Safeway really doesn't care about the information behind the card, (My last couple of club cards I got, they just handed me a new card, I didn't have to fill out anything). All safeway cares about is how often the card is used, so they can tell their suppliers how great it would be if they put their products on the club card.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by tsa · 2006-01-11 06:50 · Score: 3, Insightful

You don't even have to play it. Just selecting it is enough. I like this new feature, but I think I'm the only one here :-)

--
-- Cheers!
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by Rockenreno · 2006-01-11 07:00 · Score: 3, Funny

I use my ex-girlfriend's number. She tells me not to buy beer on it because it might reflect negatively on her parents somehow.
I don't listen.

--

Forecast for tomorrow: A few sprinklings of genius with a chance of DOOM!
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by k4_pacific · 2006-01-11 07:13 · Score: 4, Funny

Yeah, I have two of those cards. For one I put "Carly Fiorina" for the name and I use it for most purchases. The other has my real name, but I only use it when I buy Condoms or sour cream.

--
Unknown host pong.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by Ghostx13 · 2006-01-11 07:17 · Score: 3, Insightful

"while you're browsing your own music, the MiniStore will automatically show you more music from your favorite artists that you can find at the iTunes Music Store."

"it's reasonable to assume they're gleaning this from your interactions with *their* website."

Appearently you're not reading enough into it. It clearly states, as you can see from my bolding above that it says "while you're browsing YOUR OWN MUSIC". It doesn't say "while your browsing the ITMS" or "while your browsing apple.com" it clearly states "YOUR OWN MUSIC". Maybe my reading comprehension isn't up to par, but when something says "YOUR OWN MUSIC" I'm assuming they mean my own music.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by kat11v · 2006-01-11 07:20 · Score: 5, Funny

My husband is an avid hater of any sort of nonsense that invades his privacy so about two years ago when applying for a "SaveOnFoods" card (without which you cannot get the sale prices on some of the food iteams of course) he put "Darth Vader" as the name on the card.
It still gets me when they try to do the whole "Have a nice day Mr. ___" after you pay them, take a look at the name, pause, and then give up on the whole tactic altogether.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by squidfood · 2006-01-11 07:30 · Score: 4, Interesting

Appearently you're not reading enough into it. It clearly states, as you can see from my bolding above that it says "while you're browsing YOUR OWN MUSIC".
I've bought about 10 songs from the iStore, but have about 3000mp3s in my iTunes. The recommendations I've gotten are pretty obviously from those 10 songs I bought. Don't know if they know about my 3000mp3s, but they're not making recommendations from it right now.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by lordholm · 2006-01-11 07:38 · Score: 3, Interesting

"They can defuse this whole situation simply by adding a checkbox to iTunes, to only enable this invasive feature at the user's request."

Edit->Hide mini store
Although you have to do that explicitly.

--
"Civis Europaeus sum!"
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by RussR42 · 2006-01-11 07:38 · Score: 5, Funny

But no one every told me about personal responsibility. I blame society and the government!
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by dubiousmike · 2006-01-11 07:41 · Score: 4, Interesting

I use Little Snitch on OS X which monitors applications trying to go out over the network and asks what I want to do about it before it will let the app do its thing. From what I can see, Itunes uses port 80 to do its thing. With Little Snitch I could make a rule to not let Itunes do this, but this would disable the itunes store. Not that I use it anyway after they expired all of my free pepsi points without warning...
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by timeOday · 2006-01-11 07:56 · Score: 3, Insightful

If you don't like it, use something else
People can't decide to quit using spyware until they discover it, now can they? That's the value of publicising this issue.
As it happens, I'm not an iTunes user at all (mplayer and xmms). One of the big things I love about Linux is freedom (for lack of a better word) from little spams tucked into every icon and preinstalled application and bookmark. But I think issues like this clearly illustrate the benefit of keeping media available outside proprietary players, and that won't happen unless a lot of people demand it. My own choices alone will not determine the environment I live in. The more people complain about the commercialization of every mouse click, the better the future will be.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by brendanoconnor · 2006-01-11 08:04 · Score: 4, Informative

I actually work for Safeway and can reliably tell you that companies pay us to place their product in a specific spot in the store. Safeway feels that a large portion of its profits come from these vendor deals rather then actual product sales. This does not mean product sales are useless, but that we make a very large percentage of our money off product placement.

As far as tracking sales with the club card. For instance, the safeway cards that do not have magnetic stripes but rather just a barcode, that barcode does not hold a lot of information. The other club cards with the magnetic strip can actually made to link to your checking account for shopping at Vons. Of course a pin number is tacked on for a bare level of security. I find that the vast majority of customers will have a club card with correct information as well. Also many of them have the card connected to their bank accounts.

As far as employees not using their club card, I have never heard an employee say they refuse to use the card as it tracks sales (I mean, heck, this company pays your freaken checks, they have all your information ANYWAY). Most employees that do not have cards are really just to damn lazy to fill out a peice of paper.

Speaking of iTunes, yes they are tracking what you download, not sure if they ask or not, though I'm sure its in the eula, but if they asked and you said yes, I do not see the problem. Do not like it, do not use them for your music needs.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by Magnifico · 2006-01-11 08:19 · Score: 2, Interesting

I don't have an Apple Music Store account, but yet use iTunes. I have the latest, greatest iTunes from yesterday and the Music Store doesn't recommend songs or artists to me. But I think that is because I'm not logged in to their service and not a customer.

I wonder if iTunes would make suggestions to Music Store customers who are not signed in. I suspect that it would not.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by Midnight+Thunder · 2006-01-11 08:19 · Score: 4, Insightful

If the user bothered to read the features list they would know it was there. You're absolving the end user from personal responsibility.

While the poster might be absolving the user from all responsibility, you are doing the same with Apple. Privacy is something that needs to be respected by the vendor and they should be required to ask the user what elements of their privacy they are willing to give up. There are just too many contracts for too many different things to be able to read them all - it would be nice, but in reality people give up on reading them.

--
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by xnot · 2006-01-11 08:20 · Score: 2, Insightful

No. I see a big difference between spyware, which is software installed without my consent and which sends information to anyone who may want it and what iTunes is doing, which is collecting information for the purposes of improving my user experience in iTMS. The difference for me I think is the amount of value the company provides for my agreeing to them collecting information. Random information collected about me while I use my computer does not benifit me in any way- it only benifits the company that installed the spyware. Thus it has no use to me, and I delete it. But what google, amazon, and now iTunes do actually helps me, so I allow it.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by Ghostx13 · 2006-01-11 08:25 · Score: 2, Informative

Uh, no. By my logic the sign would be big and in bold type (like on apples website) and hanging in the window. But my guess is people like you wouldn't read it anyway, and would whine when they got punched.

It's not hidden at all. Take a look at http://www.apple.com/itunes/playlists/

First paragraph. In bold! Last sentence.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by Ghostx13 · 2006-01-11 08:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

I'm not absolving Apple of anything. In fact if this was a different situation and it was not on their website, in bold type on one of the main pages, I'd be pretty miffed.

Privacy is very important, but it's up to the individual to protect their own. Your right, their are too many different things to read them all. But you can be sure that before I install something new I've never used before I read up on it. I do the same thing with everything I do because I don't want to have a problem that I have to have a lawyer solve for me.

Why do you expect someone else to protect your privacy for you?
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by MoneyT · 2006-01-11 08:37 · Score: 2, Insightful

love these idiots who proclaim that the disclosure in the online docs (which appeared during a recent mandatory upgrade) is sufficient. Line 'em up..

Aside from the fact that people have checked that hiding the mini store does stop it from sending data, please explain to me where you would like them to disclose this? No one reads the EULAs so Apple put it in a FEATURES list for the program. If you can't even be bothered to read the features list, do you really give a shit what your program does? Furthermore, explain to me how this was a mandatory update? My old systems are still puttering along just fine without the new iTunes.

--
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by MoneyT · 2006-01-11 08:44 · Score: 2, Informative

1. Where does it say that? EULA? Some "About" option nobody ever calls?
That would be deceptive -> spyware.

The web site. In plain english. In bold type. In the features list. That would be plain as day -> not spyware.

--
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by m50d · 2006-01-11 08:55 · Score: 2, Insightful

The user doesn't have to read the readme, they're entitled to assume it will not contain anything they need to know about unless their attention is drawn to it.

--
I am trolling
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by R3d+M3rcury · 2006-01-11 09:01 · Score: 2, Insightful

Gee, that sounds simple! The issue I have is what data is it using to make this determination?

If it's taking the song I'm currently playing and sending that to iTMS, I don't have much of a problem with that.

But suppose it's is taking the song I'm currently play and sending to iTMS, where it is being stored in order to come up with "better" suggestions. Then I have a bit more of a problem with it.

Suppose, further, that iTMS is also keeping statistics as to whether the song came from iTunes or a ripped CD. Suppose, further, that it's able to detect the difference between a track ripped with iTunes and a track ripped "in some other way" (some tag that iTunes adds), in order to come up with "better" suggestions. After all, if you went and bought the whole CD, you must really like these guys.

Let's go a little further. Since the RIAA suspects you might be trafficking in "stolen" music, they contact Apple and subpoena that information as part of an investigation. Sure enough, something like 90% of the 1000 individual songs you played were ripped "in some other way." I think that'd be enough evidence for a search warrant...

You're right. While I'm browsing my own music, the MiniStore will automatically show me more music from my favorite artists. What they're not telling me is what information is being used to determine it. As I mentioned, if it's sent and forgotten, I don't have much of a problem with this. It's a useless feature--I'll decide when I want to look for new music--but what the heck. The problem is, the cute marketing description doesn't tell me what information is being sent for Apple to come up with this list.

That's where this is bad. I'll decide what information about me that Apple gets to use, thank you very much.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by milkman_matt · 2006-01-11 09:08 · Score: 4, Informative

Can the feature even be turned off by those dilligent enough to do so? (Short of resorting to firewalling?)

Yup. I was able to shut it off moments after seeing it on.. I didn't even know what it was doing there, why I couldn't shut it off or that it was even watching what I was playing. I just went into options, parental controls, and shut off the music store because I don't use it anyway, if I want to buy something from the ITMS I'll just go enable it and purchase, then disable it again..

Also I saw an article today here at macosxhints.com (via slashbox) which explains how to do it too:
"Thankfully, there's an easy workaround. Kirk McElhearn used tcpdump to verify that if you simply disable the mini store (Edit: Hide Ministore, or just Shift-Command-M), then no data is transmitted. So that's the hint -- if you value the privacy of your listening habits, then hide the mini store. "

-matt
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by lordholm · 2006-01-11 09:23 · Score: 3, Informative

According to macosxhints: "Kirk McElhearn used tcpdump to verify that if you simply disable the mini store (Edit: Hide Ministore, or just Shift-Command-M), then no data is transmitted."

Though McElhearn's blog seem to have been slashdotted, poor guy... :)

--
"Civis Europaeus sum!"
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by monkeydo · 2006-01-11 09:54 · Score: 2, Funny

they're entitled to assume it will not contain anything they need to know about unless their attention is drawn to it

And in your mind, calling it "README" doesn't count as drawing their attention?

--
Si vis pacem, para bellum
The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by JulesLt · 2006-01-11 10:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

It looks like disabling the store then re-enabling gets rid of the ministore (even if you quit and re-enter iTunes). To be honest, I think there's a case of having a bit of perspective. It should certainly be easier to turn on/off, but music recommendation has always been a popular thing in p2p clients, nor does it indicate they're holding client specific information on their servers. (Considering Apple don't even hold a record of what you've bought - i.e. if your machine is wiped you cannot re-download - it seems unlikely). What Apple really need to do is let you set a privacy policy as a whole for your account, from tin-foil hat to 'hey man, my front door has no locks'.

--
'Capitalists of the world, unite! Oh ... you have' (League Against Tedium)
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by ChatHuant · 2006-01-11 10:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

Is this any different from Microsoft's Windows Media Player database that phones home or used to phone home? http://www.computerbytesman.com/privacy/wmp8dvd.ht m

Yes, it's different.

First of all, the article you link to is very old (2002, and talking about WMP8). Since then the public outlook on privacy has changed, issues and expectation have been clarified, things like opt-out have become less acceptable, and so on. Current versions of WMP not only don't enable phoning hoome by default, but also open a window during installation asking you about the privacy options you want. Apple seems to have missed on some of those developments.
Re:Big Brother and the iTunes Company by atta1 · 2006-01-11 11:49 · Score: 3, Insightful

The real question here, that nobody seems to be asking, is how would all the people defending Apple react if it was the Microsoft Music Store doing the exact same thing. My guess is that while a tiny minority would still say "big deal", the rest would be spouting diatribes about how evil MS is collecting their data.

--
"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote" -- Kosh

Extremely easy to disable, and more info by daveschroeder · 2006-01-11 05:47 · Score: 5, Informative

First of all, I don't know how this qualifies as iTunes suddenly being "malware", but anyway...

Edit -> Hide MiniStore (or shift-command-M)

No information of any kind is sent when the MiniStore is disabled.

What iTunes 6.0.2 is doing:

Sending information about the currently playing track to Apple, and then displaying information related to that track in the iTunes Music Store in the MiniStore pane. It is not broadly "tracking your music preferences".

Further - though we admittedly don't know this since Apple doesn't explain how it is using the data - there is no proof that Apple is doing anything but merely changing the MiniStore display based on what track you are listening to (which is very likely exactly what they're doing); not aggregating or "tracking your music preferences".

iTunes isn't doing this surreptitiously, either: the MiniStore pane clearly actively changes depending on what track you have selected. One would presume this does not happen via magic or the dark arts.

I'd love to have comment from Apple, and a clear presentation that information is being sent to Apple for x purpose, and a clear option to allow - or disallow - such use. I've looked through the iTunes 6.0.2 license and do not see any such guidance.

Granted, the MiniStore pane is present by default, but it can be disabled as easily as is described above.

I realize many people think this represents "going over the line"; but is there ever any instance where datamining to match items you might be interested in to your interests is acceptable? Is there any value to having this be the default state in certain instances where it could be significantly helpful?

Re:Extremely easy to disable, and more info by garcia · 2006-01-11 05:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

Edit -> Hide MiniStore (or shift-command-M) No information of any kind is sent when the MiniStore is disabled.

Then it should be disabled by default or you should be asked (in plain English) if you want it enabled when the program starts for the first time after update. If you say no it shouldn't ever ask you again nor should it track your listening preferences.

I realize many people think this represents "going over the line"; but is there ever any instance where datamining to match items you might be interested in to your interests is acceptable? Is there any value to having this be the default state in certain instances where it could be significantly helpful?

No. Absolutely not. Especially when they didn't ask my permission first.
Re:Extremely easy to disable, and more info by daveschroeder · 2006-01-11 05:56 · Score: 4, Interesting

Then it should be disabled by default or you should be asked (in plain English) if you want it enabled when the program starts for the first time after update. If you say no it shouldn't ever ask you again nor should it track your listening preferences.

You don't know that it's "tracking" anything, even now.

On the other hand, we don't know it's not doing that, since Apple doesn't tell us.

No. Absolutely not.

It's never ok for an external entity to attempt to match things to your interests? Okay, possibly a different philosophical outlook on things, here...

Especially when they didn't ask my permission first.

Agreed. But, as I said, it's not exactly a secret that it's doing something to be able to actively change the MiniStore display.

Sure, Apple's trying to sell something. But it can also be argued, correctly, that this improves the user experience with iTunes (aside from the broader privacy argument). I do, however, agree that Apple should have made this clearly known on the first launch, and given an option at the same time to simply disable it.
Re:Extremely easy to disable, and more info by garcia · 2006-01-11 06:00 · Score: 3, Insightful

But it can also be argued, correctly, that this improves the user experience with iTunes (aside from the broader privacy argument).

Then they can watch my surfing and purchase habits inside the *store* (which I am 110% sure that they already do). They don't need to track my listening habits for music that was not purchased in their store. Just because I am using their software doesn't mean they should be able to receive information about *everything* I listen to on it.

Since when was spying on people just because they utilize your software something that people found acceptable?
Re:Extremely easy to disable, and more info by spectre_240sx · 2006-01-11 06:03 · Score: 2, Insightful

I don't see that in iTunes 6 on the Mac at my office. Is this only for PCs or something?

Anyway, I love having new music reccomended for me. I have an account at Last.FM set up to do just that for me. It keeps track of every song I listen to, rates the artists I listen to most as well as the albums and songs I listen to most. It even has a community feature where you can find people with similar music tastes.
Re:Extremely easy to disable, and more info by DaggertipX · 2006-01-11 06:28 · Score: 2, Interesting

Yes, because Apple's DRM practices are so very very terrible. They have possibly the most lenient and accessible DRM of all that is out there - just enough that they can keep the suits happy and signing papers that make it so they can deliver a product.

Is it a "lesser of evils" case? Sure. I'll take Apple over Sony and/or Microsoft any day of the week, though. I will also continue purchasing music - I don't fear the future enough to completely disregard products of the present.

Still disagree with my stance? Try this on - If you have bought a CD from any major corporation in the last 3 months, and/or if you run Windows Media Player(which does the same thing) - you are a hypocrite.

(I suppose I should mention I'm a recent convert. Got a powerbook abou 5 months ago, and am now in the process of converting all my boxes to Macs.)
Re:Extremely easy to disable, and more info by garcia · 2006-01-11 06:37 · Score: 3, Insightful

It may infuriate you, but that's just the state of things, I guess.

Giving up is lame. You should be ashamed.
Re:Extremely easy to disable, and more info by jafiwam · 2006-01-11 06:57 · Score: 4, Insightful

To add to the parent poster, I think "Malware" is not an appropriate term for what this program is doing.

When I use the term "malware" I typically mean programs that do one or more of the following;

- resist uninstallation
- persist after uninstallation attempts
- reinstall after uninstallation or "by the roots" removal
- hide from the user
- hide from the operating system
- hide what they are doing *
- damage the operating system
- replace, interfere with, spoof, or hijack functions such as DNS resolution, home page, file associations and toolbars
- create problems in order to sell you a "fix" for them

The one with the asterisk, is the ONLY one of these things that iTunes is doing, and that only if the user is hopelessly ignorant about computers and the internet.

It might be "spyware" but it is not "malware" in my book.

seems like it could be okay by yagu · 2006-01-11 05:48 · Score: 4, Informative

While it's been some time since I installed iTunes (to provide support for friends and family -- hard to walk them through an interface I've never seen) it seems to me that the tracking and recommendations is optional. I could be wrong.

That said, even if it were NOT optional, I'm not sure I see the controversy here. People love the iTunes/iPod marriage and the "it just works" philosophy.

Part of that philosophy is the synergy that is the relationship between the user and the product. Apple seems to be good at defining and enhancing that relationship. So, it seems (to me) a logical extension to "observe" the music a user likes and make recommendations therein.

How different and onerous is this compared to the Amazon "people who have purchased this also have purchased ...," feature?

iTunes isn't my cup of tea, but for many users, this "malware", in my opinion, is a far different (and more benign) animal than, say, the SONY DRM debacle.

As for the author's opinion about how controversial this should be, quoting the last paragraph from the article:

So, for now, if you don't want iTunes phoning home--and you may not want Apple to record the music you listen to--you can simply hide the MiniStore. I find Apple remiss for not being forthright about this feature, both in its EULA and other information in iTunes. But I have a feeling that this issue will be making some waves in the immediate future.

specifically and especially to his last sentence, I don't (have a feeling this will be making some waves in the immediate future).

Furthermore!, it should be pointed out the author "concedes" in the article:

Edit: after more analysis, this does not send info to Apple when you are playing music, but rather when you click on a song. So if you start playing a song by double-clicking, it will send info to the iTunes Music Store and retrieve suggestions. But if the song is in a playlist, the MiniStore display will not change when the next song begins

which almost completely renders moot the original thesis.

So what? by Tyger · 2006-01-11 05:49 · Score: 4, Interesting

So? BFD. Certainly there are cases where privacy is a concern, and companies are harvesting personal data for ill gains. But is this really one of them? Calling it malware makes it sound like Apple was so sinister. It's no worse than Amazon tracking your purchase habbits and using it to suggest what other shoppers must buy, or the fact that you have to register with CDDB now, so they could potentially track what music you listen to. Of course the article doesn't even offer proof that the data is even retained by Apple, nor that there it is directly associated with your personal information. It could just be using the immediately selected song to suggest similar music, not a full history.

And what exactly sinister use will Apple have for this horribly damaging data, anyway?

Plus, it's so easy to disable. Get over it already.

More info by Moby+Cock · 2006-01-11 05:50 · Score: 3, Informative

I found the following links since submitting the story:

Here
and
Here

Malware?? by ShortSpecialBus · 2006-01-11 05:50 · Score: 5, Insightful

What is it doing that is malicious?

Spyware, sure, but not malware.

-stefan

--
//FIXME: Bad .sig

Re:Malware?? by JUSTONEMORELATTE · 2006-01-11 06:35 · Score: 5, Funny

What is it doing that is malicious?

Spyware, sure, but not malware.
It recommended Justin Timberlake.
'Nuff said
Re:Malware?? by geekee · 2006-01-11 11:39 · Score: 2, Insightful

"What is it doing that is malicious?

Spyware, sure, but not malware."

Spyware is by definition malware. Just because there is an apparent obvious use doesn't mean there aren't other things Apple could do with this data. They could sell it to record labels. They could identify tracks that are probably obtained illegally, etc.

--
Vote for Pedro

Impossible!!! by ObsessiveMathsFreak · 2006-01-11 05:51 · Score: 4, Funny

This is incredulous!! The ergonomically designed iTunes interface hides nothing from the user and shows any and all pertinent information at the briefest glance. The stylishly engineered music system and efficient online purchasing system offers only the highest level of quality entertainment with none of the underhanded skullduggery that lesser companies wallow in.

Apple soars above such outrages!! You will feel His Jobnesses' Wrath!!

--
May the Maths Be with you!

Re:Impossible!!! by Sentry21 · 2006-01-11 07:35 · Score: 2, Insightful

The ergonomically designed iTunes interface hides nothing from the user and shows any and all pertinent information at the briefest glance.

Truer than you know - the 'malware' is actually iTunes suggesting similar music when you click on a track, which displays in the Ministore pane. If you turn off the Mini-store, then no data is sent. Hence, your statement is correct. It *isn't* hiding it from the user, and it *does* show pertinent information. Neat huh?

OMG! by east+coast · 2006-01-11 05:51 · Score: 2, Insightful

From the blurb: Basically, iTunes is tracking your music and sending the data back to Apple servers. This info is then used to advertise songs that may be to your tastes. A convenient feature, perhaps...

You know if this was Sony or Microsoft there would be howls of anger and the pitchforks and torches would already be out. Apple does it and; "hey, they're swell guys but I don't know how comfortable I am about this".

WTF? Where has all the anger gone?

If Steve Jobs was a record exec we'd have a battle cry that he should be flogged in public and put in the stocks for no less than 28.7 years.

--
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.

Re:OMG! by ozydingo · 2006-01-11 06:06 · Score: 2, Interesting

Does WMP do this? Ya know, I don't really know, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did. And my reaction woulndn't be any different. I am by NO means an Apple fanboy, but I just don't find anything outrageous about this. I just assumed software like iTunes would do this sort of thing, but that's not really the main reason I'm not using it. Corporation tracks what music I listen to on their software? I don't really give a shit. But I still don't use iTunes.
Re:OMG! by NeutronCowboy · 2006-01-11 06:07 · Score: 4, Insightful

Maybe because it can be disabled? Maybe because it doesn't root your computer? Maybe because it just isn't as bad as the stuff Sony and MS pull on a regular basis? Maybe there is no conspiracy?

--
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Re:OMG! by kannibal_klown · 2006-01-11 06:11 · Score: 2, Insightful

You know if this was Sony or Microsoft there would be howls of anger and the pitchforks and torches would already be out. Apple does it and; "hey, they're swell guys but I don't know how comfortable I am about this".

Actually, no. As much as I "don't like" Microsoft and such, if they did this I wouldn't care.

It's saying "Hmm, you seem to like a lot of girlie music. We think you might like this song by the Backstreet Boys. Check it out of you want."

In my opinion, that's not malware. Malware would be installing a rootkit, or installing a driver/DLL that prevents you from listening to non DRM'ed songs on your PC alltogether. This is just implementing what just about every big online site does: based on your habits while using our service, might we recommend product X

It's just over-reactionary. Now, if this thing reports to Apple that "Person x has a suspicious number of mp3's with common hashcodes. Notify the RIAA ASAP!" then I would definately start Apple bashing. But it isn't, so who cares.
Re:OMG! by Zebra_X · 2006-01-11 06:11 · Score: 2, Informative

It can be disabled, and there is detail about what exactly is collected and transmitted in the EULA.

Both features are both missing from iTunes.
Re:OMG! by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · 2006-01-11 06:14 · Score: 5, Insightful

You know if this was Sony or Microsoft there would be howls of anger and the pitchforks and torches would already be out. Apple does it and; "hey, they're swell guys but I don't know how comfortable I am about this".

If the crack dealer I see on the corner were to pull a gun out of his pocket, I'd go for cover. If my brother pulled a gun out of his pocket I'd probably say something like, "hey what is that gun you're carrying?" The reason for this is because I know my brother and have some level of trust in him. I might say, "hey put that away" if I felt it was inappropriate. I feel that what Apple has done is inappropriate. They should have issued a privacy policy that explains what they do and don't do with the information they are collecting. They should have had the feature disabled by default (even if they included a big "enable ministore suggestions" button). That said, Sony has a history of doing unethical things, as does MS. Apple has a much better record. Thus, I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are probably not data mining. If that proves not to be the case, I'll be more skeptical of them in the future.

I can't believe people are focusing on this, however. I mean sure, this is pseudo-spyware (not malware), but Apple just released machines that implement EFI. I'm much more concerned about the "trusted computing" possibilities of the new firmware than I am about iTunes. One might let them collect data about the songs listened to using freeware they distribute (with an easy option to turn it off). The other might allow them to restrict your actions on the hardware you buy, after the purchase. I'm tentatively giving them the benefit of the doubt there too, but it is certainly a much more pressing concern than iTunes phoning home.
Re:OMG! by javaxman · 2006-01-11 06:26 · Score: 4, Interesting

You know if this was Sony or Microsoft there would be howls of anger and the pitchforks and torches would already be out. Apple does it and; "hey, they're swell guys but I don't know how comfortable I am about this".
Yea, I'm about as worried about Apple knowing my musical tastes as I am about Amazon knowing my reading preferences. As in... not at all.
If you're the type that's worried about Amazon and Google tracking you with cookies and such, then yea, it's nice to know about this ( and the fact that they don't track you when the mini-store is hidden ). I guess I'm just not that paranoid... I'm actually quite happy to tell everyone what kind of music I like. I'd even tell you, if I thought you wanted to know.
I'm frankly much more paranoid about Google keeping records of my searches and gmail messages, but even that... I mean, if you use credit cards, Apple knowing your music preferences is the least of your worries.
Re:OMG! by discstickers · 2006-01-11 06:42 · Score: 2, Informative

Both features are both missing from iTunes.

Wrong.

--
I have a shitty sig!
Re:OMG! by notaprguy · 2006-01-11 07:35 · Score: 3, Insightful

Try instaling Windows Media Player. By default, Microsoft does NOT collect any data. You have to "opt in." Apple's approach seem to be that you have to "opt out."
Re:OMG! by m50d · 2006-01-11 09:12 · Score: 2, Funny

I think Apple must tell their employees to come here and say how good they are. That's the only reasonable explanation for the ridiculous amount of Apple-love on this site.

--
I am trolling

Amazon is malware! by BushCheney08 · 2006-01-11 05:51 · Score: 5, Funny

Amazon.com is a malicious website! When I click on a book, they show me other books that people have purchased with it!!!

--
Be a real patriot: Question authority. Think for yourself. Formulate your own conclusions.

Re:Amazon is malware! by mopslik · 2006-01-11 05:58 · Score: 2, Insightful

Amazon.com is a malicious website! When I click on a book, they show me other books that people have purchased with it!

While the term "malicious" should probably not have been applied to either iTunes or Amazon, what you say is correct: Amazon.com monitors your clicks and purchases, and profiles it against its database to suggest other books you might want to purchase.

The difference, of course, is that while you are clicking on Amazon.com, you are essentially playing about on their server. When you are casually listening to MP3s via iTunes, your personal data is being collected and sent from your own computer.
Re:Amazon is malware! by garcia · 2006-01-11 06:05 · Score: 3, Insightful

Amazon is a store accessable via a web browser. iTMS is a music store accessable via software. iTunes is an interface to iTMS *OR* a standalone player. As far as I'm aware Amazon doesn't have its own branded browser.

So, iTMS can track my habits just like Amazon does. iTunes should not.
Re:Amazon is malware! by porcupine8 · 2006-01-11 07:03 · Score: 4, Funny

You think that's bad? After I purchased a PowerPuff Girls video, they had the gall to EMAIL ME when the next one came out! It was horrible, I needed months of therapy to get over this horrible stalking.

--
Warning: Apple/Nintendo fangirl. Likes her electronics cute & cuddly. May be rabid.

iTunes is Malware? by SageMadHatter · 2006-01-11 05:53 · Score: 5, Informative

No. It is not.
Malware definition

Perhaps the news submitter ment to use the term spyware?

Oh, build a damned bridge.... by nvrrobx · 2006-01-11 05:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

...and get over it.

The reccommendations feature in iTunes is fantastic. Amazon's Reccommendations page has a "I own it" check box. I use this page frequently to find new music or books or DVDs I would be interested in based on the other things I own (even those I didn't buy from Amazon).

From TFA, it hasn't been determined if the cookie sent back contains your Apple ID. It may not. It may not contain anything traceable or of a privacy concern. How about trying to use iTunes on a clean install without buying anything first and seeing if it does the same?

But one thing is for sure - if you want service of a personalized nature, you have to be willing to let someone know something about you.

Re:Oh, build a damned bridge.... by revscat · 2006-01-11 06:59 · Score: 2, Insightful

Question: How can it in any way be construed as "secret" when it takes up approximately 20% of the application's window?

Please by goaty_the_flying_sho · 2006-01-11 05:53 · Score: 5, Funny

Oh shit! Apple knows you listen to too much Britney Spears! Time to get hysterical and post to a bunch of blogs from starbucks on your powerbook.

So What? by tedgyz · 2006-01-11 05:54 · Score: 4, Interesting

I'm all for privacy, but this doesn't seem terribly unreasonable. Nobody bitches about Amazon customizing their storefront based on past purchases. Well, maybe they do, but I don't hang around with tinfoil-hat-types.

My point is that every time I go to the iTunes music store, I think, "Gee, wouldn't it be cool if the store knew about my collection and taylored the site to my tastes. I really don't care to see the latest offering from Kelly Clarkson.

I guess the ideal thing would be if I were given a choice. I didn't see any mention of that in the article. To me, that would be one way to satisfy both crowds. I guess I'll have to fire up iTunes and see if I'm being "watched".

--
"No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Banzai

Ok, seriously! by Rantastic · 2006-01-11 05:56 · Score: 3, Interesting

Lets be real here. It is not like iTunes is sending my personal information to Microsoft! This is Apple. Cudly and sweetest computer company of all.

In all seriousnes I will check the eula when I get home, but I bet there is something in there when you install a new version. On top of that, it only happens when you have the MiniStore open. The whole point of the MiniStore is to offer you music you might like. How else should it work?

--
Ask Slashdot: Where bad ideas meet poor googling skills.

You might be a redneck when... by Mrs.+Grundy · 2006-01-11 05:57 · Score: 5, Funny

you listen to a lot Anton Webern. Seriously, it turns out that people who bought Anton Webern's Variations for Piano, Op. 27 (all three of us) also bought Jeff Foxworthy--at least according to the ministore. That little gem of demographic goodness has brightened up my day so much I don't care how what info Apple gets from my listening habits.

Privacy Risk != Malware by FalconZero · 2006-01-11 05:58 · Score: 5, Insightful

Ever used an Internet browser? That sends data to various servers, does that constitute a risk to your privacy? Probably, but it doesn't make Firefox, IE & Opera 'malware', in the same way that even if iTunes is sending data to Apple, it's not necessaraly malware.

Kneejerk reactions like this are unsupprising given the current culture of "Oh my god, the've got my name and they know what music I like!". If you are conserned about your privacy with regard to a company or service, I suggest you start with their Terms of Service and Privacy Policy - If you don't like them, you don't have to use their service.

--
Windows in 6 Bytes (IA-32) : 90 90 90 90 CD 19

Re:Privacy Risk != Malware by the+idoru · 2006-01-11 15:54 · Score: 2, Funny

Ever used an Internet browser? That sends data to various servers

No kidding! The porn site I just visited had an ad that informed me that my computer is emitting a unique identifier (called an "ID Address" I think) that can identify who I am to anyone on the internet. I think it was telling me the truth because it knew what town I live in! I'm OK, though, 'cause I layed down the $19.95 for their identity protection software.

You actually want this to happen by chriss · 2006-01-11 05:58 · Score: 3, Interesting

What happens: iTunes sends a request to the music store if you click on a track in your iTunes Library. It displays the recommendations it received based on the track you clicked in a mini store below the library. If you dislike this, press COMMAND-SHIFT-M ( Edit > Hide MiniStore).

Is this spyware? I think the definition as used in the article is ways to broad:

spyware (because it sends information to a server) and adware (because it displays information to attempt to sell you products)

My definition would include "without my consent and without me being able to turn if of". Maybe yours would be "without asking me BEFOREHAND".

The main problem is that we are developing a lot of technology that allows us to personalize any kind of service. This has been impossible in the past, but with the establishment of the web as data infrastructure and database driven applications on web servers accessing data from millions of users at a time, this all changed. I think we have to change the way we think about this and whom to blame.

I'm somewhat paranoid about my data, e.g. I only pay cash to leave no trace. On the other hand I LOVE amazons recommendation system and am very willing to give them informations not only about what I buy, but also about what I might buy. [But I wouldn't search amazon for the "Anarchists handbook" or "DIY pipe bombs" without deleting my cookies first.]

We're just at the beginning of the massive use of personalization. Wait a couple of years and someone will convince you with a service that requires tracking you via GPS 24h/day. The old idea of "minimal data collection" simply will not work. But 1984 wont happen either. We will get used to leaving data tracks everywhere. [One thing that really scared me was AT&Ts patent to read the RFID tags in your trash can to find out about your consumption habits.] It will happen because it is so convenient. Like gene modified fruit or gene therapy. Resistance is (basically) futile, though often worth a try.

Our main focus should be to push society into handling this wisely, if it cannot (or should not) be stopped. So push for privacy laws that do not simply allow or prohibit collecting data, but which clearly define who may access the data, what they may do with it, in which ways they have to inform you about it.

Control what is done with your data, not if it exists at all.

Chriss

--
memomo.net - brush up your German, French, Spanish or Italian - online and free

--
memomo: free web based language trainer DE-EN-ES-FR-IT

Is it in the EULA? by OctoberSky · 2006-01-11 05:59 · Score: 2

Whats the EULA say on this, if anything. If it says "iTunes will search your music, send information found to Apple and from this recommend you artists/songs" then there is nothing to cry about.

Someone get the EULA, scan it for info related to this and then we can talk Malware/Spyware. If it's there and you click Agree, then there is nothing to bitch about.

Yes it is... by TedTschopp · 2006-01-11 06:05 · Score: 4, Funny

Uninstall it now, and install Windows Media player or Real player. I hear they are much better.

P.S. I also heard the sky was falling...

--
Fantasy remains a human right; we make in our measure and in our derivative mode... -- JRR Tolkien

OMG!!! The sky is falling!!!! by night_flyer · 2006-01-11 06:06 · Score: 2, Funny

"it raises concerns over privacy."

What? are you afraid it might get out that you listen to Britney Spears?

--

Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...

Windows Media Player by brettlbecker · 2006-01-11 06:06 · Score: 5, Insightful

It would be interesting to re-phrase the question and replace "iTunes" with "Windows Media Player" and see what kinds of responses are generated by the Slashdot crowd.

Sample headline: "It seems the most recent update to Microsoft's bundled media application Windows Media Player is mining the music tracks that a user plays and sending that data back to Microsoft in order to present the user with similar tracks from the MSN Music Store. What Microsoft does with this data after Music Store recommendations are made is unknown."

Will the apologists for Apple and their data mining stand up in this case as well?

Interesting question, anyway.

B

--
"We must still have chaos within in order to be able to give birth to a dancing star." --Friedrich Nietzsche

Re:Windows Media Player by robertjw · 2006-01-11 08:39 · Score: 3, Funny

It would be interesting to re-phrase the question and replace "iTunes" with "Windows Media Player" and see what kinds of responses are generated by the Slashdot crowd.

There would be a few knee-jerk responses because Microsoft was involved and a lot of bitching about the level of Microsoft's evilness. Ultimately it wouldn't matter because both iTunes and WMP would have the right to do this based on their EULA and everyone would forget about it as soon as the next Google article posted.

--
Find coupons in Greeley

the art of spying on an exhibitionist by jheath314 · 2006-01-11 06:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

My taste in music is my business and I don't want other people knowing that my most listened to album is Tom Dooley and Other Hits by The Kingston Trio.

/me tries avoid posting just to point out the irony of writing this on /.

*strain*

--
Procrastination Man strikes again!

Maybe this will improve their selection? by SpaceAdmiral · 2006-01-11 06:07 · Score: 5, Interesting

I want them to track my music listening habits. Maybe if they notice the bands I listen to, they will make deals to distribute music from Epitaph and Fat Wreck Chords artists. . . 'cause currently iTunes have almost nothing I want to listen to.

But it's not Microsoft! by saleenS281 · 2006-01-11 06:08 · Score: 4, Insightful

Everyone knows tracking is only bad when it's from "evil" companies like SCO, Microsoft, or Sony. Apple is "good" and "on our side".

/satire In all reality, this would be fine if they had a clearly labeled option/popup when you first ran iTunes. "Hey, we'd like to track the songs you listen to so we can recommend some other songs we think you'll like" and not buried somewhere in a EULA, or not actually brought up at all. Then again, from what I can tell apple doesn't like to give users choice, they like to decide what's right and wrong for you. This truly isn't a flame either... after working back and forth with them extensively for over a year, it's just how they operate. Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's not. In this case, I would say it's not.

I'm sorry but you got this when you accepted. by jskline · 2006-01-11 06:12 · Score: 2, Informative

I read a lot of these comments so far, and I'm surprised... or maybe not at the apparent apathy towards reading EULA's and other things when you install software. I have been a long time iTunes user and have spent many a dollar there. I discovered the fact that it was profiling based on a particular scheme of purchases that I made. My musical tastes span the globe almost literally. And I could use that to my benefit to try this and it worked. And this was well over a year ago!

And you folks are just now finding this out???

Also on the next note, IF YOU AREN'T READING EULA'S OR AGREEMENTS WHEN YOU INSTALL SOFTWARE, THEN THE REAL PROBLEM IS WITH YOU. And in reality this is so true because iTunes would not be where it is today without the undying love of the music downloader who is now going legit after the death of "free Napster". And you just want to "get that thing installed so I can use it" kind of thinking.

I can't blame them for using a download demographic for pushing similar stuff. Everyone does it. I think they call that... "Marketing".

They teach that in school although I'm not sure where sometimes.

Cheers

--
All content in this message is copyright (c) 2008. All rights reserved. RIAA is prohibited here.

Re: iTunes is Malware? by Moby+Cock · 2006-01-11 06:13 · Score: 2, Interesting

According to the definition you linked to, spyware is a subset of malware.

How ironic by wcrowe · 2006-01-11 06:19 · Score: 3, Funny

I find ironic the possibility that some of those who would object to this data mining, routinely share their musical preferences with the world via nuclear-powered subwoofers at 2:00am.

--
Proverbs 21:19

Re:How ironic by DaveV1.0 · 2006-01-11 07:48 · Score: 2, Insightful

You forgot they are also the ones sharing their musical tastes when the put songs on all those wonderful P2P sites and software.

--
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.

Opt-in or opt-out by Frankie70 · 2006-01-11 06:20 · Score: 2, Insightful

Granted, the MiniStore pane is present by default, but it can be disabled as easily as is described above.

Shouldn't a non-evil company have Opt-In rather an
Opt-Out - spammers are the ones who are supposed
to prefer opt-out.

Re:What kind of music... by dc29A · 2006-01-11 06:27 · Score: 2, Funny

What kind of music do terrorists listen to??
- Illegaly downloaded music of course! It funds terrorism!

What about piggybacking Quicktime downloads? by Curmudgeonlyoldbloke · 2006-01-11 06:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

Not sure that tracking purchases is really "malware", but I'm certainly not a fan of the way that the default Quicktime download is "QuickTime 7 with iTunes 6".

If I wanted iTunes I'd download it - I don't want it appearing on my PC because I installed something else. There is (or was last time that I needed it) a non-iTunes version that you can find after lots of hunting around, but it's sharp practice at least to make it available this way.

Re:What about piggybacking Quicktime downloads? by Xenna · 2006-01-11 07:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

Yes, that's what annoyed me as well. my girlfriend had to install a quicktime viewer for a university course recently and ended up with iTunes.

I already hated quicktime for various reasons and now I hate it even more. And iTunes with it :(

$appleimage--

X.

Didn't anyone watch the keynote? by nystagman · 2006-01-11 06:43 · Score: 2

Don't you remember when Steve had the NSA guy on stage to demo iTunes?

--
Theory and practice are the same in theory, but different in practice.

Try Audioscrubber if you want suggestion by Pocaille · 2006-01-11 06:44 · Score: 2, Interesting

From the website (last.fm)
Last.fm is the flagship product from the team that designed the Audioscrobbler system, a music engine based on a massive collection of Music Profiles. Each music profile belongs to one person, and describes their taste in music. Last.fm uses these music profiles to make personalized recommendations, match you up with people who like similar music, and generate custom radio stations for each person.

I personnaly get a lot of good suggestion from this web site,
my user profile: http://www.last.fm/user/Pocaille

Yeah right by OSS_ilation · 2006-01-11 06:45 · Score: 2, Funny

Sounds like the author got caught purchasing Mariah Carey's Greatest Hits and an NSYNC compilation and just wanted to save some face.

I for one enjoy this feature! by black+hole+sun · 2006-01-11 06:45 · Score: 2, Informative

As an iTunes user, I discoved The Arcade Fire and British Sea Power through their recommendation service. Today they are two of my favorite bands! I say good work Apple. It's damn near impossible today to find decent music on the radio, so this feature's a great tool for people like me with very specific music tastes.

+5 Insightful? the Mind Boggles! by tabdelgawad · 2006-01-11 06:53 · Score: 3, Insightful

1) "But you can turn it off!" - And here I thought it was about default settings and opt-in. Didn't we (users) already fight these battles with Windows Media Player and Real?

2) "But Amazon does it!" - In a browser, while online browsing on *their* servers. A child can see the difference.

3) "But it's useful!" - So, potentially, is any invasion of privacy. If they know everything about you, they can make your shopping experience *really* convenient!

4) "But Apple wouldn't use the info for bad purposes!" - The government wanted to access your bookstore receipts and library checkouts (in addition to monitoring your phonecalls and emails without warrants). I'm sure Apple will fight to the last cent before handing over one iota of info to the government ...

Every one of these points was made in a +5 moderated post. Think, moderators, think!

--
Imposing Libertarian views on everyone online since 1992.

Over-reaction by Yahweh+Doesn't+Exist · 2006-01-11 06:58 · Score: 2, Informative

anyone familiar with iTunes and bitching: why didn't you make such a huge fuss over the little arrows next to the artists/albums that link you to the music store?

they provide exactly the same function and are also enabled by default. however, whereas it took 2 clicks to disable the arrows it only takes 1 click to disable the ministore.

Because the same people by C10H14N2 · 2006-01-11 06:58 · Score: 2, Insightful

Would probably have a conniption fit if they walked into a bar and the bartender brought them "their usual" without being prompted. When it's a human, this is called "good customer service." Suddenly, when it's a computer, it is the root of all evil. As long as they keep it to themselves, sort of like the bartender not running up to your office and telling everyone you like to have fifteen martinis every wednesday night, I don't see the big deal.

Stupidity vs. Malice by Daedala · 2006-01-11 06:58 · Score: 3, Interesting

Apple screwed up: this is unquestionably spyware, because it's not clear before you install that this is going on, it was slipped into a regular update, etc. I'm definitely a Maccy, but I won't serve as an apologist for this. It's wrong. Period.

That said, it doesn't appear to be malicious. It's very easily turned off and that doesn't seem to disable any function that isn't directly related. They're not hiding what they're doing as they do it.

I'd chalk this up to stupidity and poor communication. It doesn't seem like they were really trying to hide anything, just that they didn't think, "Hey, maybe I should be extra-specially-clear and disclose this." The tech people weren't talking to the marketing people; what a shock.

I'd hope for a quick mea culpa and clarification of the service. Perhaps, when you start the updated iTunes for the first time, a dialogue box could pop up and say, "Hi! Want me to tell the iTMS what song you're playing? Then I can make recommendations for you! [Yes] [No] [Bite me]"

--
What I say does not represent the views of my employers, my friends, my cats, or myself.

This is a non-issue by Keyslapper · 2006-01-11 07:00 · Score: 2, Informative

I am with most of the other posters in wondering why the hell this is an issue at all.

I've been using iTunes for around 4 months, and I'm ALWAYS running through the "Just For You" section to get suggestions. I listen to clips, I check album ratings, and sometimes I buy whole albums or just a few songs. Sometimes I put a note in my iPod's notes section regarding an album I want to buy a hardcopy for (I don't have a clue why, and I'm not going to hurt myself trying to figure it out).

Bottom line, I've spent more on iTunes in the last 4 months than I've spent on music in the 4 years before that point. Why? Because I've found an obscene amount of music I never even knew I liked! How? iTunes' recommendations.

Still, what are they using this for? Are they tracking everything I listen to on my iPod? Do they know all the music in my library? I seriously doubt it. I like it that way too. When iTunes recommends something I already own the hardcopy to (typically already imported in my library), I tell them, and they use that info to recommend others. They don't know about the music I've borrowed (short term - I DON'T keep it if I don't like it, and I BUY it if I do - which has also lead to a lot more spending on my part).

Hell, I think it could only be better if they were to implement a wishlist I could dump to my iPods notes section so I could compare iTunes' prices with Strawberries' or Newbury Comics' used CD section.

So, sure iTunes IS bad, but only for my budget! It's done phenomenal things for my enjoyment of music, and that wouldn't be possible without actually using the information I GIVE it.

Just my $0.02, spend it or save it.

But it can be disabled trivially. by Paradox · 2006-01-11 07:05 · Score: 5, Informative

This new feature puts up a little pane in the iTunes window that shows songs related to the song you are currently playing. There is no indication that I can find that the iTunes Music Store is actually storing that information. It's unlikely that Apple could store that kind of volume of information, given that it happens on selection, not on playing.

But I don't think people should worry. You can simply press one button and iTunes stops doing it (the disclosure button on the left side of the bottom button bar). It's pretty simple to verify that your computer isn't sending any data on track selection or play when that window is not added, so in general you only get this information when you ask for it. Further, all it has to go on are the identifying tags in the music, and these can be easily changed, so it's not something that could ever hold up in any sane court if someone came at you with a lawsuit. Then again, sanity doesn't seem to be a prerequisite these days, so our milage may vary.

Don't get me wrong, I am not to happy about this feature because it's effectively embedding ads in iTunes. They're pretty well targeted, but they're ads. Still, the article seemed to overreact to what iTunes is doing.

--
Slashdot. It's Not For Common Sense

Re:But it can be disabled trivially. by BandwidthHog · 2006-01-11 07:58 · Score: 3, Informative

Except that, as implemented, it seems to be opt-out.

I just happened to have run the 10.4.4. updater this morning, so when I opened iTunes just now I was asked to agree to the latest EULA. I skimmed through it and found no mention of usage data being sent to Apple, so I then read through it closely and still found no mention. When I hit ‘agree’ and iTunes opened, there was an outgoing connection to phobos.apple.com, which I denied. It made only that single request. I closed the iTMS pane at the bottom, and got no further requests until I opened it again.

So yes, it’s quite simple to avoid having your play history sent (if that is indeed what is happening), but unless you have a third party egress firewall running (or have been quite ruthless with ipfw in the past), it will start sending out data before an otherwise knowledgeable user can disable it.

--

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Re:But it can be disabled trivially. by Trojan35 · 2006-01-11 08:36 · Score: 4, Insightful

Right. Relevant, non-annoying ads in a free product. That's Google level evil right there.

Re:+5 Insightful? the Mind Boggles! by Yahweh+Doesn't+Exist · 2006-01-11 07:06 · Score: 4, Insightful

the terms "opt-in" and "opt-out" are way out of proportion here. this isn't some obscure setting or (de-)registration procedure. it's a single click of the mouse to close a window.

if you really want to bitch about nothing then here's a far better one: Firefox has cookies enabled by default and sets your homepage to one of theirs on first run - THEY COULD BE SPYING ON EVERYTHING YOU EVAR DO ON TEH INTERPOWER COMPUTERWEB!

Re:+5 Insightful? the Mind Boggles! by Kenshin · 2006-01-11 07:11 · Score: 3, Insightful

1) "But you can turn it off!" - And here I thought it was about default settings and opt-in. Didn't we (users) already fight these battles with Windows Media Player and Real?

It's not like it scans your entire library the moment you launch iTunes.

The matter is you can turn it off before it DOES ANYTHING.

--

Does it make you happy you're so strange?

RTFA and stop whining about things which aren't by dreamer-of-rules · 2006-01-11 07:18 · Score: 4, Informative

For those of you who didn't RTFA or missed what this is all about, the latest update in iTunes added a 1" advertisizing bar in the playlist windows that is easily closed.

THIS IS NOT THE "RECOMMENDED FOR YOU" WINDOW IN THE MUSIC STORE. This is a new bar which appeared prominently in a playlist window by default after the latest update. THIS IS NOT HIDDEN TRACKING. THIS IS A CLOSABLE AD.

The mini-store bar is very obvious. It is annoying that it appears at all, but can be turned off easily (click the close/hide button) just like the album artwork. The mini-store is not subtle. It very clearly is showing songs in iTMS that match whatever song you just selected in iTunes, like other songs by that artist, and such. It does not appear to suggest songs based on my previous purchases. It looks just like the iTMS store (when you get to actual tracks), but at the bottom of *your* playlist instead of going through the usual iTMS clicks.

According to the reports, sniffing the traffic shows that if you close the mini-store window, it does not bother to send any hits/requests/info back to Apple. Presumably because you wouldn't see the results anyway. If Apple is sending my uniqueid along with my selection clicks, this would be somewhat more of a privacy issue.

I am annoyed by the new "feature" since I hate advertising. But I don't see it as a serious breach of privacy, except that a little popup explaining the new feature and what it does would have been greatly appreciated. It's only a little different from clicking on tracks in the iTMS in that it appears in playlists.

Adware? Sure. Spyware? No. Annoying? Yes, for five seconds, until you click the hide button.

--
Everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but not his own facts.

Malware means MALICIOUS software by Overly+Critical+Guy · 2006-01-11 07:18 · Score: 2, Insightful

You're absolutely right. Hey, kids, guess what? Every web server you visit is logging your IP address in their server logs! My god! Even what browser and OS you're using!

iTunes recommending music based on your purchases isn't "malware." If iTunes was actually being malicious, THAT would be malware. All it's doing is recommending albums. What an inflammatory headline to generate page hits. People need to read the definition of what malware actually is.

--
"Sufferin' succotash."

Privacy calculator by b.vixer · 2006-01-11 07:32 · Score: 2, Interesting

If your really interested in how much your private data is worth....

This is a direct quote from the website:

http://turbulence.org/Works/swipe/calculator.htm l

(Flash required)

"This calculator allows you to determine what your data bits are worth on the open market so you can request proper compensation when it is asked from you. For instance, a typical cellular phone company will ask for your address, date of birth, phone number, Social Security number and driver's license to open a new account. Consult our data calculator and that will be $13.75 please!

Refer to this calculator when you interact with all businesses and goverment agencies. Make sure you get a cut of the profits from the reselling of your information. (A downloadable data calculator for Pocket PCs is on the way.)

We used the following sources to determine the worth of your individual data bits: Accurint, Aristotle, ChoicePoint, ChoiceTrust, DocuSearch, Experian, KnowX, Merlin Data, and Pallorium. There are many other commercial data warehouses in the U.S., but these are some of the most popular and represent the general types of information that are for sale."

Didn't read the EULA, huh? by Medievalist · 2006-01-11 07:38 · Score: 3, Interesting

For those who don't know: The iTunes EULA is outrageously broad, and basically grants permission to Apple and several other companies to do anything they damn well please - including re-writing the entire EULA without notification or consent.

That's why my mac has no iTunes. That's why the corporation I work for does not allow versions of Quicktime that include iTunes.

Incidentally, I've been roundly flamed (and even made people's /. foes list) for pointing out that I, personally, am unwilling to enter such an open-ended contract.

Perhaps I have blasphemed the mac religion by reading an Apple EULA. I fully expect this post to be modded troll and flamebait, although it is intended as neither.

It's there by metamatic · 2006-01-11 07:43 · Score: 5, Informative

The button is the fourth from the right at the bottom of the iTunes window. It turns off the Mini Store.

--
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak

They do track you... by camusflage · 2006-01-11 07:53 · Score: 4, Interesting

Grocery stores can, and DO, track individual purchases. Recently, a fire fighter was suspected in an arson because his card had shown as purchasing the accelerant used in the fire. It wasn't until someone else confessed that he was cleared. The DEA has subpoenaed records looking for people purchasing large numbers of baggies. A large grocery store, in the aftermath of 9/11, turned over to the FBI their entire loyalty database of purchases and purchasers, without so much as a subpoena, to "help find and fight terrorists."

--
The truth about Scientology, Xenu, and you: Operation Clambake

Basically the same functionality as last.fm? by Shag · 2006-01-11 07:54 · Score: 2, Informative

I've had last.fm's AudioScrobbler client (iScrobbler) running on my Mac for ages now. It feeds info on the songs I listen to into their web site, where there's a database and all that. I get recommendations, and so forth. Looks like the new iTunes functionality is basically identical to that, except that now it's integrated with the iTunes store...

--
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.

Say it ain't so by inkswamp · 2006-01-11 08:06 · Score: 2, Insightful

You mean Apple is doing exactly what they stated they were doing when they unveiled this feature months ago? NOOO!!! How shocking! What an outrage. I'm glad the sleuthing reporters at mcelhearn.com are on top of these shocking developments and can bring them to our attention so quickly.

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--Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."

last.fm? by Brunellus · 2006-01-11 08:23 · Score: 2, Insightful

You know, it sounds suspiciously like the features of last.fm, which collects data on your listening habits, then reports back to its servers, and recommends new things to listen to. The killer here is that using those data it queues up a streaming audio player that plays music similar to the stuff you listen to anyway.

Actually, I rather like this feature on last.fm, and I don't particularly mind broadcasting the type of music/audio I'm listening to at any given moment. The "neighbour radio" (last.fm's term for it) is the best part--it lets me tune out my cubemate's preference for '80s soft rock.

Oh, God no! by niteskunk · 2006-01-11 08:27 · Score: 3, Insightful

Telling Apple what I listen to? HEAVEN FORBID IT!

Is it just me or are a lot of people hypersensitive to issues like this? Who cares if Apple knows my playlist? To their servers, I'm just another consumer, they don't have the time/will to sit there and read incoming data, "HEHE, THAT GUY LISTENS TO MICHELLE BRANCH."

Seriously now. There are issues far greater than this that should be stressed.

By the time you find out how it can be bad... by Garance · 2006-01-11 08:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

...it will be too late to complain.

Consider: The record industry is looking for ways to justify multi-tier pricing, where some songs cost 75 cents, and other songs cost $2, or $3. What better way to justify that than to say, "People really play <this> song more than <that> song, so we deserve much more money for it!". I would actually be happy to do that, if I thought that the artist would get the extra money, but I'm pretty sure any extra money will magically vaporize somewhere in the record labels. "overhead", or "promotional copies" or something.

Consider: If I understand this right, they are tracking what songs you play. Not what songs you buy from them, but what songs you play from anywhere you obtained it. First off, if the song is not one that you bought from them, then how can they tell what you're playing? From the artist name and song title that you typed in? Geez, people can't even get consistent data into the gracenote database (which is why I still avoid that), so just how accurate is the data going to be when the names are based on what a million different people type in? For that matter, I rename some of the songs I do buy from iTMS, because they even they don't name things completely consistently (although they do better than Gracenote).

Consider: Let's say the RIAA feeds certain songs into the file-sharing networks, which have unique markers in them (either spellings of artist names, or MD5 digests of the song, or something). Then they come knocking on Apple's door saying "Have you noticed anyone playing <this> song? And you can tie that playing to a specific authenticated user? Hey, that's Great!".

Consider: Let's say the government finds out that "terrorists" really like to play "Desert Rose" from Sting. Or they want to know everyone who listens to the podcasts from Al Franken. Gee, maybe Apple would know. Once there is a database, then who knows what "interesting" things someone might want to find out from mining that data...

I don't know if any of these are going to happen, but the thing is that we won't know the downside until we see it. And all of this is for what? So they can recommend more songs for us to buy? They do an awful job with the "Just for You" recommendations as it is. I don't need someone tracking down more songs for me to buy -- particularly not the person who directly profits from me buying stuff. Real live human beings have a tough-enough time agreeing on what which albums are good, even if they agree on an artists they like. Anything the store recommends is still going to be nothing more than a random guess. The "up-side" of this is extremely insignificant. If you want to find more interesting music to listen to, then search for it yourself. You can spend months on amazon reading reviews (both pro and con) from real live people who have bought a variety of albums, and get a much better idea of what music to try than you'll get from database-mining and a 30-second snippet of some song.

disclaimers: a) in general, I like Apple. I like MacOS much more than Windows. I own four ipods. I buy songs from iTMS (not a lot but some). b) I think Sony should be completely boycotted for their recent DRM fiasco. c) I think it's hysterical that Microsoft claims people should hate iPods because they "lock you into" a single vendor. d) I prefer to buy CD's over digital downloads, and my iTunes music collection is about 99% songs ripped from legit CD's that I personally bought.

Have Fun With It by camperslo · 2006-01-11 08:41 · Score: 2, Funny

Think of it as having some hidden Easter Eggs or a game.
Perhaps It'll come back with something interesting if you listen to things like Joe Wecker - DeCSS Song or Wierd Al Yakovic - Windows 95 Sucks

Could anyone else care about what you listen to?

If your collection is really Da BOMB, it'll include
JJ Walker - DYNOMITE!
Simon and Garfunkle BRIDGE Over Troubled Water
Moody Blues - TUESDAY AFTERNOON
The Vogues - FIVE O'CLOCK World

People need to Grow Up by ranton · 2006-01-11 09:17 · Score: 2, Insightful

I work at a small computer software company, and we do everything in our power to collect as much information about our customers as possible. Every time they log onto the software it checks for updates, which also allows us to track how much and when they use it.

Since the software is largely used during recreational time, this lets us know the best time of day to reach this customer if we have to call them. Our latest marketing push was the most successful we ever had because we had detailed information about the habits of our customers. We know what they usually buy, at what time of the day they like to do their shopping, and when are they most likely to be home and able to answer a call.

What does this allow us to do? It allows us to offer the best service possible to our customer. And of course, that also helps our bottom line so that we make more money. Anyone who is so anal retentive that they care if someone knows what brand of peanut butter they like is being childish. The information age helps everyone, businesses and consumers. You have to take the good with the bad, but in this case the Pros greatly outweigh the Cons.

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-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke

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