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What is the Intel Switch Costing Apple?

SenseOfHumor writes "A Business Week article says that it costs Apple $898 for an Intel iMac before loading it with software and packaging. From the article: 'But for Apple, the switch to Intel chips is less about saving money in the short term, and more about hitching its wagon to Intel's longer-term product road maps, particularly in the area of notebooks. IBM's chips are power-hungry and generate a lot of heat, and therefore not suitable to notebook computers.'"

95 of 531 comments (clear)

  1. If they don't know.... by MountainMan101 · · Score: 5, Funny

    If they don't know, why ask us? Everyone knows slashdot crowd knows nothing. But we'll always comment. So I'll say it's costing them at least a hundred pigs a month in tribute. Maybe some biscuits (you Yanks call them cookies).

    1. Re:If they don't know.... by Zerbs · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yes, but how many Bacon Jr. Cheeseburgers is that?

      --
      "22 astronauts were born in Ohio. What is it about your state that makes people want to flee the Earth?" Stephen Colbert
    2. Re:If they don't know.... by Reducer2001 · · Score: 3, Funny

      I don't know, I didn't go into Burger King.

      --
      When you get to hell -- tell 'em Itchy sent ya!
  2. When did this change? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In the mid 1990s, Apple showed the famous picture of a Pentium grilling a hot dog and claimed Intel's chips were power hungry and ran hot compared to the nice cool sleek PowerPC. That was one of the supporting reasons that Apple ostensibly switched, according to all the engineering presentations at WWDC. So when did this change?

    The main reason of course was that RISC processors were on a much faster performance incline than the fuddy duddy old CISC processors like the x86 line. The graph comparing the two in the period 1995-2005 showed CISC acceleration continuing to slow and RISC acceleration continuing with, I believe, a skyrocket attached to the top of the graph. We all know how that turned out.

    1. Re:When did this change? by 55555+Manbabies! · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So when did this change?

      Somewhere in the last decade where each architecture was developed into something different than it was.

    2. Re:When did this change? by adisakp · · Score: 5, Informative

      The main reason of course was that RISC processors were on a much faster performance incline than the fuddy duddy old CISC processors like the x86 line. The graph comparing the two in the period 1995-2005 showed CISC acceleration continuing to slow and RISC acceleration continuing with, I believe, a skyrocket attached to the top of the graph. We all know how that turned out.

      No one at the time expected the changes in CISC processors. CISC processors still do have a "complex" instruction set in that they allow multiple forms of adddressing and varying length opcodes. However, internally these chips have become much more RISC-like. The current generation of Pentiums actually does an internal version of dynamic translation from CISC to RISC-micro-ops (which may be 1 or more per CISC instruction) and executes the micro-ops using a different instruction set internally. This internal RISC instruction set is used so central to the design that the L1 I-Cache is not actually a verbatim data cache of the CISC instructions but actually a trace cache of the translated RISC-like micro-ops.

    3. Re:When did this change? by dasil003 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      No one at the time expected the changes in CISC processors. CISC processors still do have a "complex" instruction set in that they allow multiple forms of adddressing and varying length opcodes. However, internally these chips have become much more RISC-like. The current generation of Pentiums actually does an internal version of dynamic translation from CISC to RISC-micro-ops (which may be 1 or more per CISC instruction) and executes the micro-ops using a different instruction set internally. This internal RISC instruction set is used so central to the design that the L1 I-Cache is not actually a verbatim data cache of the CISC instructions but actually a trace cache of the translated RISC-like micro-ops.

      It really just goes to show the error in the view that RISC and CISC are considered opposite approaches to processor design. The dichotomy was more pronounced in the early days of chip design, but the fact was that proponents of both approaches had good points, and so it was inevitable that modern chips combine the best of both philosophies.

      I think the progress made on the PowerPC architecture is a testament to its viability. The fact that it's even managed to stay anywhere close to Intel/AMD is remarkable given the difference in R&D dollars (I'm just guessing). But the timing of the Intel switch makes perfect sense.

      Consider the switch to the PowerPC in the 90s. It was a time when Microsoft was rapidly catching up to the Mac in terms of UI, and computers were generally underpowered for the common applications that people needed. Gambling on a more promising architecture could have paid off huge if the performance panned out. That never happened, and Apple was in pretty bad shape by the late 90s.

      Now, however, computer performance has reached adequate levels for all the things the common people want... audio, video, web surfing, word processing. We can always use more power, but performance is not such a big deal as it used to be. Since they're not seeking a competitive advantage in performance, it makes sense of Apple to at least assure commodity performance by going with the dominant CPU architecture. Apple has contiunously struggled with supply problems from chip vendors for years, hopefully this will now be behind them, and they can focus on the creative part of their business which is where they've always excelled.

    4. Re:When did this change? by AKAImBatman · · Score: 2, Informative

      It changed within the last few years. Apple used to cream Intel chips on battery life, regularly producing laptops that could run for up to four hours. Intel laptops, OTOH, were quickly dwindling in battery life all the way down to 2 hours or less.

      Intel noted this issue and produced the Pentium M processor (part of their whole "Centrino" push), which significantly reduced processor power usage on mobile computers. In the meantime, Apple was unable to convince IBM to produce low power G5's as they had gotten Motorola to do in the past. Apple was thus stuck with older processor technology for its laptops.

      Does that help explain things?

    5. Re:When did this change? by nelsonal · · Score: 3, Informative

      Neither breaks R&D by business line, but IBM spent $15.3 billion from 2002-2004 on R&D (keep in mind that IBMs R&D includes lots of software and probably at least a little bit for their computing systems). Intel spent just over $12.5 billion at the same time, but their R&D was only spent on CPU, chipsets, and their network/wireless businesses (which were only a small portion of the R&D spend.

      --
      Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
    6. Re:When did this change? by buysse · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Despite the belief of many on /., you probably don't want a cell. It doesn't do out-of-order execution. Unless code is seriously optimized for the exact micro-architecture of the chip, probably hand-optimized for critical portions, you will get horrible performance.

      In that respect, it's quite similar to the Itanium (no hardware branch prediction, all in compiler) -- screaming fast for something that's very well optimized, but change the processor (Itanic II), and you get bad performance on code compiled for the first rev of the chip.

      Now, for the specific case of Photoshop, the cell might work quite well -- as a coprocessor, for filters and other ops in Photoshop, but not to run the main UI. Same thing for something like Mathematica or Matlab. It's not a very good general-purpose core (in terms of being easy to program or easy to get good performance).

      It will show in the PS3 -- the first games will have horrible performance compared to games that come out six months later, as the developers understand the oddities of the Cell better and the tools get better. Yes, that difference shows up in every console that comes out, but I think it's going to be especially pronounced on the PS3 because of the cell.

      --
      -30-
    7. Re:When did this change? by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Since they're not seeking a competitive advantage in performance, it makes sense of Apple to at least assure commodity performance by going with the dominant CPU architecture.

      The Intel switch wasn't about switching to a dominant architecture, it was about moving to a platform that had a future roadmap for performance-per-watt. Intel is kicking butt in that department with the Core Duo (a laptop chip that manages to compete with a desktop Athlon64). Merom and Conroe later this year are supposed to further this even more dramatically, being chip redesigns with performance-per-watt as the design goal.

      Steve Jobs was tired of selling a G4 Powerbook, so he moved to Intel.

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
    8. Re:When did this change? by demachina · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I didn't mean to imply they achieved parity with Alpha in their first iteration, but early Pentium Pro and II put Intel on a pretty close footing with MIPS and SGI in particular, especially the lame ass R5000. Add in Windows NT, Glint and Voodoo offering the first low cost 3D GPU's, Microsoft buying Softimage and porting it to this platform and you have the inflection point where PC's started burying RISC workstations and it is the point that SGI and SUN started a long decline in the workstation market.

      On the subject of Itanic that was no doubt a key contributor to Intel's current problems in the CPU market. They squandered far to much of their R&D budget on these processors which only work well on supercomputing apps, and were in general a disaster of EPIC proportions, while AMD did 64 bit sensibly and in a way that sells to a mass market.

      I wager Intel is going to disappear out of the supercomputing, server, workstation and desktop market, and be forced to survive on ARM and Centrino in devices(phones and settop) and laptops. That's not necessarily a bad thing since it appears that is where much of the future of computing is heading.

      --
      @de_machina
    9. Re:When did this change? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Informative
      Well, the R4400 and R8000 are both pre-ppro and the R10k is from the same year as the ppro. (I wrote a now-somewhat-outdated timeline of microprocessors on e2.) AFAICT the R4400SC spanks the PPro pretty badly. And, that's from the days when SGI was still selling lots of machines (I have an Indy with a R4400SC module sitting, powered off, at home right now.) The R5000 was a budget CPU from day one, although it IS faster at some types of 3d graphics operations than the R4400(PC or SC) due to some added instructions.

      I agree with you about intel's future, unless maybe they come up with a decent bus (sometime next year) or just license AMD's :)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  3. the real costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    ibm relationship, $1,000,000,000
    porting operating system $30,000,000

    finding yourself on the platform you have been bagging out for the last three decades? Priceless!!

    -Sj53

    1. Re:the real costs by lynx_user_abroad · · Score: 3, Insightful
      porting operating system $30,000,000

      With the understanding that this was not intended to be an accurate estimate, it's still an exaggeration.

      Apple has, at the very least, shown it's operating system to be more flexible (or morphable) than Microsoft's Windows.

      Apple already made a successful platform jump once before (from 680x0 to PPC) and maintained side-by-side compatibility.

      They've also now made an operating system jump (from the MacOS 9.x series to the OSX series fully encapsulating MacOS 9.x as Classic.)

      I think the best Windows ever offered was a version of NT which ran on a Sun box. That didn't last too long.

      So they've already paid the price for freedom from hardware lockin. Now they're just cashing-in.

      I look forward to testing some old System 4.1 apps in Classic under OSX on Intel. From everything else I've seen, support should be transparent.

      Which, when you think about it, truly is priceless.

      --

      The thing about things we don't know is we often don't know we don't know them.

    2. Re:the real costs by cbackas · · Score: 5, Informative

      It might be worth noting that Intel based Macs will *not* support Classic mode in any way. I seem to recall reading a knowledgeable article saying this directly, but I can't find it right now. However, if you refer to http://developer.apple.com/documentation/MacOSX/Co nceptual/universal_binary/index.html#//apple_ref/d oc/uid/TP40002217 you'll see that both older applications AND Classic itself are listed as things that Rosetta can not run. If Rosetta cannot run a Classic app, then it's not GOING to run as it's still PPC.

      Now, I'm sure emulators will eventually appear, but this isn't the best example to present to demonstrate Apple backward compatibility =)

    3. Re:the real costs by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Apple has, at the very least, shown it's operating system to be more flexible (or morphable) than Microsoft's Windows.

      Apple has always kept the Intel jump as an Ace card in its back pocket. Rhapsody was developed for both Intel and PowerPC, and Apple kept Darwin x86 up to date. For many of us, the only surprise was that Apple actually made the jump, not that they could do it.

    4. Re:the real costs by mini+me · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Apple already made a successful platform jump once before (from 680x0 to PPC)

      More importantly, NeXTStep made the jump to Intel in the past. So OS X already has a history of running on x86.

    5. Re:the real costs by Jerry+Smith · · Score: 5, Interesting
      porting operating system $30,000,000

      OS X derives from NextStep/OpenStep, and has been developed for n86 from day 1. They ported every release to PPC. Yes off course it needed aftercare, but still: first for n86, then to PPC.

      --
      All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
    6. Re:the real costs by macthulhu · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Classic is just OS9 emulation to cover people during the change to OS X... It's time to let it go.

      --

      Someday a real rain is gonna come...

    7. Re:the real costs by 777film · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I can't imagine it's worth it to Apple to maintain classic emulation. Really, it's a small demographic who use it today-- and probably all of them write for lowendmac.com. Sure there will be someone who can come up with a "but I still use Microsoft 5" or whatever, but they're exceptions, not the vast majority. That might suck for a few people, but it's just not enough to matter.

      If there's a classic app you or someone else needs to use so badly, consider that you can pick up a 400mhz G4 tower or a G3 Powerbook for less than $200 (possibly less than $100) and run OS9 natively.

  4. Don't We Know this already? by patman600 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Wasn't this the publicly stated reason for switching when Steve announced the move last summer? They said IBM makes great server chips, but the future of personal computing is laptops, something Intel is putting more R&D into than IBM, and thus provides a better solution.

    why is this news?

    1. Re:Don't We Know this already? by AugstWest · · Score: 5, Informative

      The news is about the cost per iMac, but this being /., everyone is focusing on the reason for switching, since it has already been rehashed a thousand times and they're comfortable flaming about it.

      Really, what this article is saying is that Apple is only making $450 per low-end iMac sold, based on their own estimates, which are most likely wrong.

      Why is THAT news? You got me.

    2. Re:Don't We Know this already? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
      I think the expectation was that the switch to Intel would also make Macs substantially cheaper, based on the assumption that the Intel chips would be cheaper than the IBM chips. This has not turned out to be the case, probably because IBM was selling the G5s to Apple for very little profit or maybe even a loss. The rumor mill says that once the game console volume came online, IBM told Apple that they'd actually expect a profit, and that if they wanted a laptop version of the G5, Apple would have to pay the true premium necessary for developing a custom laptop processor.

      And as it turns out, IBM Microelectronics just had a fantastic financial quarter, having switched volume from money-sucking G5s to money-minting XBoxes.

    3. Re:Don't We Know this already? by LurkerXXX · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I'm wondering, why Intel?

      Where have you been?

      #1) It's been discussed about a million times that Apple has had issues chip suppliers before producing enough of the desired chips for them. Intel has the fab capacity to handle any requests Apple makes. AMD doesn't. If Apple went to AMD, they would instantly become AMD's biggest customer. That puts a huge strain on production. AMD is pushing their production capacity as is. If I recall, there were recent shortages of the 3800+ dual core chips. That's without AMD taking on a bigger customer than they've ever had.

      #2) Laptops. Laptop sales are growing, and have been higher than desktop sales for the past two years or so. While Intels desktop chips are hot and slow, the Pentium M is a nice fast low-power chip, and slightly better than any of AMD's current laptop chips.

      In a few years when AMD has more fab capacity and maybe a better laptop chip than Intel, I'm sure we'll see Apple thinking about moving over to AMD, or at least offering those as optional chips. Or at least threatening to like Dell to make sure they get a sweet deal on chip prices from Intel.

    4. Re:Don't We Know this already? by somethinghollow · · Score: 2, Interesting

      According to some recent rumor mongering, the Intel supply chain faltered, which is ironic (situational irony, as best I can tell) since that was the very reason they chose Intel.

    5. Re:Don't We Know this already? by EntropyEngine · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It'll be interesting to see where the Xserve fits in when the big chip shuffle comes along.

      I wouldn't be surprised if the Xserve stays with the IBM G5 chip for the forceable future.

      While that might cause some confusion for some developers, not all developers write applications for servers...

    6. Re:Don't We Know this already? by jonnythan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Intel has the fab capacity to handle any requests Apple makes. AMD doesn't. If Apple went to AMD, they would instantly become AMD's biggest customer.

      That's an interesting assertion, considering that AMD processors are outselling Intel processors in the retail marketplace in both retail box and OEM PC form.

    7. Re:Don't We Know this already? by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 2, Insightful
      If Apple went to AMD, they would instantly become AMD's biggest customer

      That can't be right, AMD sells into HP, IBM, and pretty much everyone but Dell's computers, and we all think Dell will see the light soon. Any of those outsell Apple. I'd bet retail processor sales even outsell Apple. Capacity is easy, particularly as Apple is going to commit to one and only device (for now).

      The fact is you won't know why they chose Intel because anyone who does know can't talk about it. I'm not implying that it is necessarily something unethical, just unannounced and lawyerized.

    8. Re:Don't We Know this already? by booch · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The incremental cost of putting software onto a system is close to $0. At least for code they wrote themselves. Licensed code will have a small incremental cost.

      Note that the article only covered incremental costs, i.e. the amount it costs to make a machine out of raw materials and labor. Software costs are almost entirely based on development costs. Development costs are of course real, but a lot harder for outsiders to estimate. Note that they didn't even attempt it for the hardware side. But development costs can be divided amogst all the many items sold; incremental costs apply to each item sold.

      --
      Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
    9. Re:Don't We Know this already? by MochaMan · · Score: 2, Funny

      Really, what this article is saying is that Apple is only making $450 per low-end iMac sold, based on their own estimates, which are most likely wrong.

      Because the $898 worth of parts magically engineered themselves into a computer, set up an assembly line, and assembled themselves into iMacs, made the OS driver updates and general optimisations, and marketed themselves by hiring advertising firms and buying TV spots, then added themselves to the online store and transported themselves to the brick-and-mortar stores. ;)

      I know you realise this, but reading a lot of comments here, it seems most people don't.

  5. What about the possibility of avoiding lock-in? by Yhippa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It should be easier to switch to AMD or other X86 platforms in the future, opening up more negotiation possibilities.

  6. what about overhead? by rahrens · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The article didn't mention overhead. You can bet that there is a cost associated with the overall organization, plus the physical plant, R&D, etc. that most likely brings the costs way up from where the article puts them!

    --
    "Money is truthful. If a man speaks of his honor, make him pay cash." Notebooks of Lazarus Long, Robert A. Heinlein
    1. Re:what about overhead? by antifoidulus · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually if you consider Apple's overall "profit margin" for the last quarter, they grossed 5.65 billion and netted 565 million, so if you go just by last quarter, their overall profit margin is 10%, IIRC still much greater than Dells, but nowhere near what the article makes it out to be.

    2. Re:what about overhead? by ivan256 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      that most likely brings the costs way up from where the article puts them!

      Actually, why do people keep believing articles like this where "expert analysts" predict the manufacturing costs of some given electronic product? There is almost never documentable evidence that they are right, and frequently they can be shown to be horribly wrong in hindsight.

      The fact of the matter is that when a successful company brings a product to market, it's usually because they figured out how to make it cheaper than was generally possible before, thus enabling them to turn a profit. Apple has a tremendous history of this, and almost every time an analyst predicts that an Apple product costs a small fortune to manufacture, Apple turns around and posts industry high profit margins that blow away the analyst predictions.

      Analysts pull this same crap with video game consoles, and all sorts of other next-generation electronic equipment made up of multiple components. Any manufacturer that ships any signifigant volume of product doesn't pay anywhere near the bulk prices that component manufacturers publish. Do you think Dell is paying Intel anywhere near their published thousand-unit prices? Then why should this analyst think apple is?

      plus the physical plant

      Apple doesn't own the plant.

      R&D

      Research and Development aren't manufacturing costs.

  7. The finite choices come from infinite options by dada21 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It is odd to me that Apple leverages so much into specific processors rather than specific processes. It would seem to me that Apple really has a great interface -- and that is the product they want to sell. With their OS kernel being based on some *nix variety (BSD? I can't remember) I would guess that the processor itself is unimportant if their software and APIs are hardware transparent.

    Here's the great thing about the market and letting it lead you (instead of the other way around) when you are an OS or software provider -- you can focus on writing good clean code, and follow up that code with the hardware that offers your code the absolute best package given the infinite choices.

    Power management, heat creation, MIPS, FLOPS, BOPS, GHZ, THZ, MB, MBps, whatever the hardware does best, there's always a ratio to price. That's the great thing about the free market, though, competititors will always want to beat the other.

    What is stopping Apple or another software company from offering the best darn interface for programmers and users to work with, and then find the processor to wrap the interface around? Is this Apple goal with Intel, possibly? Shake up IBM (and show smaller processor companies that they, too, have a chance) and create an operating system that must now work with 2 (or 10?) completely different processor subsystems? Is this Apple showing that they can get away from hardware entirely, and focus just on software?

    1. Re:The finite choices come from infinite options by AugstWest · · Score: 4, Insightful


      What is stopping Apple or another software company from offering the best darn interface for programmers and users to work with, and then find the processor to wrap the interface around?


      Apple is not a software company. They are a hardware company. It's that simple. They build really solid, nifty hardware that apparently reaches fetish level for a certain market, and they've learned to turn that market into money.

      The problem with being completely platform agnostic is that they would compeltely have to change their product line and manufacturing processes far too often, plus all of the porting from platform to platform would be a nightmare of its own.

    2. Re:The finite choices come from infinite options by adrianmonk · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Apple is not a software company. They are a hardware company. It's that simple. They build really solid, nifty hardware that apparently reaches fetish level for a certain market, and they've learned to turn that market into money.

      I would argue that they're not a software company, but they're not a hardware company either. Instead, they're an integrated system company. Years ago, before the PC and Windows (and Linux, which has the same model) took over, you bought both an operating system and a computer. The two were pretty much inseperable. (This was how the IBM PC started out, as well as the Mac, the Amiga, the Atari ST, the Commodore 64, the Apple ][, etc. And the same thing was true before personal computers: VAX machines had VMS, IBM machines had one of IBM's 99 different operating systems, etc.)

      These days, not as many people are doing the same thing. Certainly if you buy a machine from Dell, Dell is working with Microsoft to make sure the system has all the right drivers. But that's not quite the same thing as an integrated platform where hardware design and software design are done by the same organization. Integrated hardware and software designs are available from Apple and also a few other companies like Sun. And the interesting thing is that both Apple and Sun have now adopted some x86 chips. Sun has Opteron servers and workstations available but continues to make new SPARC chips (including Niagara, a whole new series of chips), and Apple is using Intel chips in desktops and laptops.

      For what it's worth, there is some value in an integrated system. Knowing that all the hardware and software come from the same place gives you a greater degree of confidence that it will all just work together. And if it doesn't, when you call for support, you are dealing with only one organization, so the blame game ("it must be the other vendor's product, not ours") is less likely. A certain percentage of the people are willing to pay a bit of a premium for these advantages, so that gives Apple (and Sun) a market that is a bit different from the regular market, which gives them a niche to play in.

      Of course, it doesn't hurt that Apple has really snazzy industrial design and that people look at an Apple laptop and instantly want one without yet even knowing what's inside. Think of the amount of appeal PowerBooks have had for the last few years even despite the fact that they still contain slow G4 processors.

  8. What about server-side? by PornMaster · · Score: 2, Interesting

    OK, we know that Apple uses desktops and laptops to justify the switch to Intel, but what does this bode for the future of the Xserve line?

    If Apple's going to be commodity CPU on the server front, then there's no incentive on the hardware front to pay for Apple.

    1. Re:What about server-side? by avalys · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If Apple's going to be commodity CPU on the server front, then there's no incentive on the hardware front to pay for Apple.

      Uh, why do you say that? You're saying that the only important hardware consideration for a server is what brand of CPU it uses. All Intel servers are otherwise equally desirable, and all AMD servers are otherwise equally desirable.

      That's obviously not the case.

      And really, no one in the past five years bought an Apple because of the PowerPC processor. They bought one despite it, because the hardware was great otherwise, and because the OS was great.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank.
    2. Re:What about server-side? by FidelCatsro · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Build quality , support quality and OS/Software quality

      --
      The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
  9. Pentium-M by Nazmun · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The pentium-m processors are incredibly power efficient and perform very well. Sure there desktops are absolutely horrible from the Northwood to the Prescott core (and perhaps some new cores since i've stopped paying attention to what intel releases on the desktop now) but that doesn't exclude the fact that they do infact have one of the best, if not THE best solution for notebooks.

    --
    Hmmm... Pie...
    1. Re:Pentium-M by aaronl · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The P3 design is old (dates back to Pentium-Pro), but it provides more per clock than the travesty that is the P4. It doesn't have constant issues with branch predication failures causing a potentially 24 cycle execution halt, from flushing the pipeline, for example. Compared to P4, it also requires substantially less power to do the same work *and* it's much less expensive to manufacture. The P4 is a bad design, and it's amazing the amount of money they've thrown at it, just to have to keep working on P3 because of the P4 shortcomings.

    2. Re:Pentium-M by Kjella · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, the Pentium-M is an excellent piece of machinery.

      It's just too bad that the best Intel appears to be able todo is with what is, essentially, the rather old Pentium-3 design with a few added tweaks.

      Then again, as someone who holds stock in AMD but not INTC, I'm not exactly crying right now.


      Well, if that's what you believe. The Pentium M was simply outclassing the P3 and AMD solutions on release, and the Core Duo is not only dual-core (remember all the fans of SMP systems around here?) but is providing Athlon64 class performance with much lower power consumption. Laptops are *not* Intel's weak point. If that is your understanding of "a few added tweaks" then an Athlon64 X2 is just an old Athlon with a few tweaks like 64bit instructions and dual core *rolls eyes*. Desktop and server chips is where Intel is struggling. Until they manage to let go of the PIV line (which is 90% politics and 10% engineering) I think you're holding the right stock.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    3. Re:Pentium-M by dc29A · · Score: 3, Informative

      but is providing Athlon64 class performance with much lower power consumption.

      Lower power consumption yes, Athlon64 performance? Not yet. According to this roadmap the highest clockspeed Yonah core is slated for January 2006 release and it's 2.16 GHZ. Now, Anandtech did some tests of the 2.0 GHZ core. This 2.0 GHZ core is barely able to reach Athlon64 3800+ X2 performance levels (the "slowest" AMD dualcore CPU, 90nm vs 65nm of Yonah). A 2.16 GHZ version should reach the 4200+ X2 and that's about it. Yonah is a nice CPU, but nowhere near top AMD performance. Maybe with higher clockspeeds in the future, not today though.

    4. Re:Pentium-M by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Merom and Conroe chips later this year are redesigns, successors to the Pentium-M and Core Duo, and will supposedly cut down power usage dramatically while increasing speed. They'll also have Intel's 64-bit extensions.

      Today's Core Duo is a laptop chip, and it's already competing with AMD desktop chips. Imagine how Intel's high-end desktop chips will perform when released this fall.

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
    5. Re:Pentium-M by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, then consider this--Yonah is a low-power laptop chip, and it's keeping up with an Athlon64 3800+ X2. Pretty amazing.

      Later this year will see Intel's desktop plans with the Merom and Conroe chips released. Conroe is a full-on 64-bit capable desktop chip and is supposed to not only cut power usage even less than the Yonah but will increase speeds.

      Can you say new Power Mac? It's safe to say Intel learned its lesson the past few years and is ready to kick butt.

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
  10. Cool by umbrellasd · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Wasn't so long ago that people were touting the RISC design of PowerPC as a big power saver. Fewer instructions, less heat. The first iMac was the one of the quietest computers I had ever owned; I recall the Apple IIe being similar. I guess that changed, but I do not know when.

    The Cell processor is an IBM creation. Several are going into the Playstation 3, so will this require a fan? Seems IBM is still building cooler chips and Intel is not the only one that cares about it.

    Don't really have the details. Just wondering what happened. The context of TFA was that IBM just could not "do it" for Apple in the cool laptop department, so they jumped ship.

    1. Re:Cool by BrookHarty · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, to be fair, at the time Intel was pushing the heat pump P4 against the PPC. Now intel dropped back to the P3, modified it, called it the pentium-m, now the duo-core. They had to do a 180 and rethink their roadmap.

      I think the greatest thing will be virtualized intel cpu's running multiple copies of OSX for servers. Or even Windows and OSX. Apple xserves will look very attractive now when can do anything, have apple quality hardware, and have true migration to any OS or software that you need. Brilliant move.

  11. Apple, AMD by Piroca · · Score: 2, Funny


    AMD fanboy's logic

    Intel loses market share to AMD
    Apple moves to Intel
    Therefore, Apple loses market share to AMD

  12. Re:Uhmmmm by AugstWest · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This wasn't a knee-jerk reaction, Appple was unable to build a fast laptop, and IBM couldn't offer them anything competitive with what was happening on the x86 side of things. I've got the latest Powerbook G4, which is the best, fastest laptop Apple could offer until now, and it's just too far behind the curve. Would you rather they remained there, while IBM worked on other things and didn't care?

  13. Then what are the savings on battery life? by 246o1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm a Mac user, and I've been keeping an ear to the ground, but I haven't heard any mention of the new MacBooks having improved battery life over the 'old' PowerBooks, so I am guessing the reverse is true (or much would be made of the better battery life). Of course, there are lots of other reasons for the move than just lower power consumption, and even on that front, there's no way of knowing right now if the new MacBooks will have lower unit-of-power/unit-of-computational-power costs. With the possibility that the new chips provide better-than-G5 performance in a laptop, well, there's certainly something going right with this switch, even if Intel doesn't have the best reputation for efficient, cool chips.

    --
    Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.
    1. Re:Then what are the savings on battery life? by podperson · · Score: 4, Informative

      Your assumptions are somewhat flawed here. The Core Duo chips don't save power vs the G4, but versus the G5 which simply wouldn't work in a laptop at all.

      The G4 had a great processing/watt ratio -- for its time. So did the G3. So did the 603. However, each new generation of laptop used MORE power to get FAR MORE processing done.

    2. Re:Then what are the savings on battery life? by Kenja · · Score: 2, Funny

      There is also no mention of the new MacBook curing cancer and not eating puppies. There for the inverse must be true, it'll consume your pets and give you cancer!

      --

      "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
  14. Power grab by digitaldc · · Score: 5, Funny

    "IBM's chips are power-hungry and generate a lot of heat..."

    In a related news item, IBM chips are now running for elected office worldwide.

    --
    He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
  15. hitch your wagon - to a SINKING ROCK! by Thud457 · · Score: 3, Funny
    Hardware: Intel Loses Market Share to AMD


    Apple Computer : Proudly going out of business for 30 years

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  16. All Intel, All The Time? by SoupIsGood+Food · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is why I'm confused about the push to "All Intel, All the Time!" Apple, with Mac OS X's Unix and NeXT roots, should embrace a multi-platform strategy to get the most bang for its buck wherever it can. The PowerPC-derived Cell will rock for workstation and servers, and the Meron will kick major butt for home user kit. Best tool for the job, and just compile for the famous NeXT "Fat Binary." Back in the day, the same NeXT executable would run on 68040, Sparc, PA-RISC and Pentiums. Why not now? Why tie yourself to x86 alone, when there are better alternatives to fit the niche you're targeting?

    Too much politics, and not enough engineering.

    ~ SoupIsGood Food

    1. Re:All Intel, All The Time? by Zathrus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The PowerPC-derived Cell will rock for workstation and servers

      And this conjecture is based on what? Certainly not any real world evidence. The Cell architecture is completely untested and a radically new design for a commodity chip. On paper it looks decent, but so did Itanium (and, technically, Itanium is quite good... except that the software has never been able to properly exploit it. Much the same may be true for Cell).

      Back in the day, the same NeXT executable would run on 68040, Sparc, PA-RISC and Pentiums.

      Yeah, and look at what a fantastic success story that was! I mean, we have NeXT cubes everywhere now!

      Frankly, it's a drawback. Software developers have to certify their code on multiple platforms if you do that, and that's hideously expensive. Sure, you can claim that you can compile for one and it'll work on them all, but know what? That's a lie. It's always been a lie and it always will be one.

      Writing cross-platform code isn't as hard now as it used to be, but it's still not trivial. Even if you're talking about different CPU architectures on the same OS. We see that at my workplace running on HP-UX when it comes to PA-RISC vs Itanium; we develop on PA-RISC, but some of our customers run on newer hardware and we cannot replicate the bugs. And this is for software that compiles on several flavors of Unix and Windows, across more CPU types than I care to list, and under at least 3 different compilers. We've already done the hard work of writing cross-platform, cross-OS code, and yet same-platform/different-CPU bugs still happen.

      You throw that kind of crap at your average development house and they'll do one of two things -- only develop for the most popular configuration (thus helping to marginalize the others) or just develop for another platform that doesn't have these issues (e.g. -- Windows and x86).

  17. Re:Uhmmmm by Twid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The Core Duo is a great laptop chip, have you seen the benchmarks and reviews lately? IBM had no real roadmap for a laptop version of the G5. Shortly after the switch was announced, IBM made some vague statement saying that they had a low power G5 design, and they could have made it if Apple wanted it. I seriously doubt that their chip would have come near the performance of the Core Duo, or that it would be ready today.

    The CPU benchmark numbers tell the tale. The Core Duo is 4-5x faster than the 1.67GHz G4 in the PowerBook, but only 2x faster than the single-core 1.8GHz G5 in the old iMac. So you can assume that the Core Duo is at least twice as fast core-for-core as the G4, but about the same core-for-core as the G5.

    The G5 was a decent chip, IBM just didn't have a mobile chip to sell Apple and was too distracted by Xbox 2 and PS3 to care.

    --
    - "When you want something with all your heart, the entire universe conspires to give it to you" -Paulo Coelho
  18. It's the marketing angle perhaps? by tkrotchko · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "What is stopping Apple or another software company from offering the best darn interface for programmers and users to work with, and then find the processor to wrap the interface around?"

    I think the problem is that Apple is a software company that makes its living as a hardware company. And to make money from hardware, they have to be perceived as different from their competition. If you follow what you're saying to it's logical end, you come up with a solution that says "Apple should not sell hardware, they should write software that runs anywhere".

    I'm sure Jobs experience with NeXT tells him that selling an operating system, his experience watching Gasse sell BeOS tells him he doesn't want to compete with Microsoft on that basis. So he's chosen a middle ground that appears to be increasingly difficult to maintain differentiation on the hardware side.

    The next few years will be interesting for Apple, that's for sure.

    --
    You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
    1. Re:It's the marketing angle perhaps? by Ryan+Amos · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Everyone forgets, but Apple has had a smooth transition between architectures before. They moved from the Motorola M680X0 architecture to the PowerPC by using mixed binaries, and had very few problems. There were some initial growing pains (extensions that would bomb the system, etc,) but by and large the transition went smoothly.

      And that was on System 7; OS X is a much more portable operating system. A simple recompile is all that's necessary for most programs without a lot of assembler optimization.

      They'll maintain differentiation with case design. Don't expect Apple to ship ATX systems; they moved to Intel because laptops are quickly becoming the standard, not desktops. Every laptop manufacturer uses custom designs anyway, and the IBM chips were really designed for servers and workstations (the POWER line at least,) not laptops.

      One bonus is that they no longer have to emulate the x86 to do windows emulation, just translate the APIs. Apple has also written stuff like this before; with Classic mode on OS X. In 2 or 3 years I wouldn't be surprised to see Windows .exes run under OS X as if they were native applications.

      Apple has their foot in the door of consumers' wallets/minds with the iPod. Now that everyone and their mother (literally) has an iPod, they'll be more open to purchasing a Mac as their next computer. With users becoming increasingly fed up with viruses and spyware, Macs are a very attractive option to many people. Once the price comes down a little bit (which I suspect it will once they ramp up full scale production on Intel) I see nothing but good things for Apple.

  19. probably never. by Shivetya · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't think its going to happen.

    I think the Mac is on Intel simply because there was little else to do to generate new sales momentum. By going to Intel it is implied that people with the older technology will buy new Apples, thereby increasing sales and making Apple's bottom line look better. This will work in the short term but long term where is the excitement going to come from?

    What do Apple computers do that Microsoft computers don't that will appeal to the general computing populace? Computing is probably too strong a term, most aren't doing more than email and surfing. Games are probably the next strongest category for most PC users. So who are they getting sales from? Simple, the Apple faithful. When those run out where do they go for more?

    Corporations aren't going to switch. Most are tied by vendor now. In our case we have windows because Dell supplies on Windows PCs. We had HP before and that was because HP supplied Windows only PCs. We don't even look at Apple. Windows is entrenched here and got that way because there was no viable alternative.

    Why would the general populace ever want to buy a Mac? You can talk it up all you want but the bottom line is price. If all the GP is doing is surfing/email/IM they are defintely going to be harder to sway. Photography? Nah, most people never use more than the basic features of most products.

    With the migration to Intel the "Mac Tax" is more evident. This puts pressure on the geek market. Many of us would like to have a machine to run OS/X. That word "machine" is key. I'm not buying an Apple unless I can use another OS on it. My first preference is that it boot Windows as that is what I need at work and for home use. Next is Linux. So why would these new machines appeal to me? Outside of the mini the new ones will be too expensive for something just to play with.

    I'll be very curious what the sales look like 1 year after the switch is complete. It is obvious most sales will be to the faithful. I just don't think they can convince the general computer populace to switch because of the obvious cost difference. Look, they couldn't convince them the premium was worth it before, how are they going to do it now when "smart consumers" can not compare Apples to Apples?

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
    1. Re:probably never. by bearinboots · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why would the general populace ever want to buy a Mac?

      Almost every person that I've induced to switch or helped to switch were prompted to do so to escape the Windows virus nightmare.

    2. Re:probably never. by iroll · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Luxury auto brands like Acura, Infinity, Lexus, Cadillac, and Lincoln should all be folded, because they are super dumb. I mean, who's going to pay the "Cadillac Tax" just to get a glorified Chevrolet? Corporations aren't going to switch; our fleet here doesn't even SEND requests for bids to any of these brands--they go to Chevy/GMC or Ford, because they provide us with machines that get the job done. And sure, all the Cadillac fanbois will tell you that the user interface is so much nicer than a Chevy (even if underneath the gloss they are indistinguishable), but at the end of the day who really cares? Price/performance is all we look at.

      In conclusion, Apple will definitely go out of business, just like luxury car brands, because nobody in their right mind will pay extra for something nice.

      --
      Repetition does not transform a lie into the truth. - FDR
  20. Economy of the 'Change' by palad1 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I don't know what it costs Apple, but I sure know the change to Intel will cost me about 2000 .

  21. Laptops/small computers are the future by Alcimedes · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Apple decided years ago that laptops were going to be the future, and the age of giant towers was coming to a close, and odds are that's true.

    Small, lower power chips that put out decent numbers are worth more to most people that large, power hungry chips that put out phenominal numbers. It's funny, the story below talks about AMD chips outselling Intel chips in the desktop. At the end of the day though, I fear AMD is taking over a market segment as it's being abandoned, nothing more.

  22. Brainiac design by argent · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The G5 is a "brainiac" design, a big complex chip with a long highly parallelized pipeline. This is a relatively new approach for RISC chips, which have typically concentrated on a small core, short pipeline, and simple design with a lot of "close" cache.

    Intel's Pentium chips have all been "brainiac"s to some extent, but none so much as the P4... which they've backed away from. The new chips in the new Macs are less like the G5 or P4 and, while not exactly as clean and tight as the G4, are closer to it than they are to the real brainiacs.

    But there's nothing wrong with the G4 core as a core. Taking the G4 core and giving it a faster bus, the way Intel's taken the PII/PIII core and given it a faster bus in Yonah, would have made a lot more sense. And Freescale's got one like that in the pipeline. They could have called it the "G5 Mobile". :)

    1. Re:Brainiac design by Animats · · Score: 2, Informative
      The G5 is a "brainiac" design, a big complex chip with a long highly parallelized pipeline. This is a relatively new approach for RISC chips, which have typically concentrated on a small core, short pipeline, and simple design with a lot of "close" cache.

      It's been many years since fast "RISC" chips were simple. It's very straightforward to design a RISC CPU that executes one instruction per clock. I once met the design team for a midrange MIPS CPU, and it was about 15 people. The design team for the Pentium Pro (Intel's first superscalar, and the innards of the Pentium II and III) was over 3000 people.

      Once Intel could execute more than one instruction per clock, the RISC people had to catch up. And that meant all the complexity of a superscalar CPU. The advantages of RISC then disappeared - it wasn't simpler any more.

      PowerPC CPUs have been superscalar all the way to the PowerPC 601, in 1992.

  23. Re:smart move by Professor_UNIX · · Score: 2, Interesting
    i think i read soewhere that notebooks are overtaking desktops in sales. where i work %75 of the people have notebooks. (out of 50)


    What really makes that possible is USB IMHO. Up until a few years ago it was basically impossible to hook external disk drives up to a laptop if you wanted to expand your storage unless you bought SCSI disks and a SCSI PCMCIA card. Now you can just go home, hook into your USB hub with a single cable and you've got access to your printer, scanner, external hard drives, DVD-RW drives, mouse, keyboard, webcam, etc. The only place it really makes sense anymore to use a desktop is if you're a gamer or an avid upgrader and like to swap out your motherboard/CPU/memory/video cards every once in awhile. It's just so much more convenient to grab a laptop and go sit on the couch and work instead of being tied to my office's desk.

  24. Its just economics by antielectron · · Score: 2, Interesting

    For people wondering why Apple introduced the high end MacBook Pro line first, and is still offering the G4 based line of Powerbooks and iBooks - the high initial cost of the Intel chips is precisely the reason. The chips aren't much cheaper (and neither as manufacturing costs) for notebooks offered at much lower price points.

    Its a good business strategy - ultimately Apple needs to watch its bottom line while it goes after markets share. As economies of scale, Moore's law, and the network effect (more applications get ported to native Intel architecture) kick in in to drive down the costs, we'll likely see the lower-end notebooks within the next 6 months, and the move to Intel processors despite their high initial costs will pay off for Apple very soon.

    1. Re:Its just economics by idsofmarch · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's also to enable 'pro' users currently produced Powerbooks because not all software has been moved to universal binaries, and a lot of pro-stuff won't run fast enough using Rosetta for these users. The PPC machines will be around for a while, just as OS9 machines were available.

      --
      Anyone who whines about being modded down should be.
  25. Re:PPC vs i86 vs x86 vs MIPS vs ARM vs by bhima · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Did you ever think that it was because there is no currently supported version of WINDOWS for the PowerPC or MIPS or ARM or Sparc... or ANYTHING that is not X86?

    --
    Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
  26. Re:My question is, how much might this cost Intel by RetiredMidn · · Score: 2, Funny
    I wonder how Redmond will respond to that.

    Copy it, probably.

  27. On thing not called out... by shawnce · · Score: 3, Insightful

    On thing that is not called out in this article (at least not well) is that Apple is saving R&D costs and R&D time by not having to develop its own chipset like is has done in the past. Instead Apple is utilizing Intel developed and manufactured chipsets. Intel has the economy of large volumes for their chipsets, Apple did not.

    When Apple was making its own chipsets they could only afford to revamp them every couple of years because of the low volumes in relation the development cost and manufacturing tooling and ramp. Now Apple can refresh their chipset and product offering as often as Intel does without excess cost.

    The component costs per unit may be higher but saving in both time and money other places will help make up for that.

  28. How about... by Trojan35 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If it becomes trivial to pirate the OS, and a significant number of people do that instead of buying a mac, it costs them their business. If it becomes trivial to dual boot Windows, and people do that, and then developers stop developing for mac and tell them to just boot windows... it costs them their business. It's much more than just a price point.

    1. Re:How about... by SchrodingersRoot · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If it becomes trivial to pirate the OS, and a significant number of people do that instead of buying a mac

      While I suspect that piracy will occur, I'm not sure it would significantly impact their sales figures. As is, most people who purchase Macs are subjects of the Apple Effect (characterized by unwavering and (potentially unjustified?) fanaticism for all things Apple). Opening up OSX to the x86 architecture will no doubt sell OSX to some of those who don't want to be tied to proprietary hardware, but most piracy, I believe, will occur in situations where the user wouldn't've bought a Mac/OSX in any case. So while it may affect their bottom line, I don't see it being as big an issue as it is for MS.

    2. Re:How about... by zos · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'll bite. First, If you thought average Mac users were evangelists, you should talk to Mac developers, because most of them would never go back to any other platform. Second, for your supposition to come to be, thousands of non-geeks would have to pirate the OS, which is not likely because there isn't a real benefit in pirating the OS. Why? For the same reason Macs don't have higher market share: it's the lack of applications. Last, every permutation of outcomes of the Apple Intel switch has been cataloged and written down for the record, therefore let's move on.

  29. Cost difference by neuromancer2701 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Think there was an article awhile back about what the average cost of an Intel processor compared to a PowerPC and How would Mac rationalized keeping the same price? I did a quick and keep in mind quick price comparison of a Macbook and a Dell. The Mac costs $2500 and the Dell about $2300. The Dell does not come configured like the mac so I had to do some tweeking to get the above prices. The only diffence that I can see in configuration is the Dell has a 7800go and 17" screen and the Mac has a 15.4" and a XT1600. The price for the hardware that you get was a lot closer than I thought(I thought that the difference would be greater) It just depends if you are a mac person or if not do you want to invest time and money into another Computer/OS. For the mass public, I can't see Babyboomers trying to learn a whole new OS, my Dad has a hard enough time as it is with windows.

    To each his own I guess

    --
    "If you like Battlestar Galactica, you're probably a huge nerd." -Stephen Colbert
  30. Re:Uhmmmm by SysKoll · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The G5 was a decent chip, IBM just didn't have a mobile chip to sell Apple and was too distracted by Xbox 2 and PS3 to care.

    Very true. Volume-wise, the game console market beats Apple's meager volume hands down. No wonder then that IBM chose to devote its Microelectronics division's resources to making the PowerPC derivatives for the Nintendo Revolution, XBox 360 and PS/3. Not to mention embedded versions you find in consumer items and under the hood of cars. The Cell processor alone will find its way in many consumer electronics appliances, not just the PS3.

    So the choice was between making a laptop chipset for Apple (volume: hundreds of thousands a year) and making a high-volume chipset for several consumer markets (volume: millions a year). Guess where IBM prefered to invest. Can't blame them for telling Apple to go fly a kite.

    --

    --
    Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/

  31. Re:What is the Intel Switch Costing Apple? by miller701 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It seems to be costing them me as a client, since they dropped FW800,

    Didin't catch on like they'd hope FW400 still available

        s-vhs,

    I believe there's a mini-DVI to (mini) s-vhs adapter

        display resolution,

    Only 60 pixels, and you gain an iSight (which may or may not be of value to you)

        probably battery life

    We'll have to wait and see

        and anticipated dual-layer DVD-RW drive...

    a concession to the 1 inch thick styling, a bummer none the less.

  32. I completely disagree by Critical_ · · Score: 5, Informative

    Just within the last 12 months has Intel started releasing chips that focus on lower heat and power.

    False. Your statement isn't giving Intel enough credit and is not supported by the numbers. Since the original Banias Pentium M's were released back in March of 2003, we've seen Intel's mobile products have very good performance per watt ratios and overall power usage numbers. In fact, the overall power usage was the lowest in the original Pentium M's out of the entire line. You statement would be correct if you it said this: "...within the last 34 months (i.e. ~3 years) has Intel started releasing chips that focus on lower heat and power."

    Data pulled from Intel Product Specifications at http://www.intel.com/

    Banias (the normal voltage models-i.e. 1.7 GHz, 1.6 GHz, 1.4 GHz, etc):

    Thermal Design Power: 24.5 W (Full speed) / 6 W (Speedstep)
    Sleep Power: 1.7 W
    Deep Sleep Power: 1.1 W
    Deeper Sleep Power: 0.55 W

    Dothan (any model #):

    Thermal Design Power: 21 W (Full speed) / 7.5 W (Speedstep)
    Sleep Power: 3.2 W
    Deep Sleep Power: 2.5 W
    Deeper Sleep Power: 0.8 W

    Core Duo (any standard power model #):

    Thermal Design Power: 31 W (Full speed) / 13.1 W (Speedstep)
    Sleep Power: 4.7 W
    Deep Sleep Power: 3.4 W
    Deeper Sleep Power: 2.2 W

    The Pentium M chips were a step towards lower power, but the Intel Core Duo that ships in the imac is the first chip that is really ahead of AMD for mobile systems.

    Again, False. The first part of that sentence has already been proven false with the numbers I've posted. The second part of your AMD fanboy'ism is also incorrect. AMD offers two TDP ranges in their "Lancaster" single core Turion64 mobile processors: 25 watts and 35watts. As you can see with the data presented above, both of these TDP's are larger than Intel's single core Pentium M offerings which have been available since March 2003. AMD's Turion didn't even arrive on the scene until 2005 which gives Intel a solid two year headstart. What's even more interesting is that more than half of AMD's entire single core Turion line consumes more power than Intel's dual core Core Duo mobile processors. AMD has yet to release their dual core Turion processors. So your statement that the Intel Core Duo is the "first chip that is really ahead of AMD for mobile systems" is complete wrong. Intel has had AMD beat since March of 2003 in the mobile market and still continues to beat it. Please check your facts before posting lies or put an AMD fanboy disclaimer on your posts.

    Note: I didn't both including Intel's various Low Voltage and Ultra Low Voltage Pentium M, Core Solo and Core Duo processors that have an even lower TDP than the standard voltage processor numbers I posted above. Adding this information would only serve to futher prove that your statements are wrong.

    1. Re:I completely disagree by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The performance for a given power crown has been handed back and forth for a while between Intel and AMD. While it is true Intel has had Pentium M's for quite a while, they have not been comparable to competing AMDs for performance for most of their existence, barring a few anomalies. This is my unbiased opinion. I am neither an AMD not Intel "fanboy" as so many on Slashdot seem to be. I haven't yet purchased a non-PPC laptop in this millennium. Looking at arstechnica or a similar sites comparisons over the last few years seems to show that most review sites agree with my assessment. To summarize, your assessment is completely correct, if you don't care about performance as part of the equation.

  33. No, it's more complex by Julian+Morrison · · Score: 2

    Their software attracts the customers, but their hardware pays the bills. So, not only do they have to push hardware, they can't afford to untie it from the OS. Using a non-mainstream chip has been a form of lock-in, finally abandoned only under unsupportable pressure due to economies of scale.

  34. Re:Here's some irony for you to chew on! by MPHellwig · · Score: 2, Informative

    South-Alaska?

  35. Re:What is the Intel Switch Costing Apple? by AnalystX · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'll make a prediction that part of the Apple/Intel deal was two-fold on the Firewire 800 situation. First, Apple agreed to dump FW800 to play up Intel's USB technology. That's nothing new, but second, Apple will collaborate with Intel on making a USB 3.0 that's at least as good as FW800 if not better.

  36. cost and performance are irrelevant here by frostilicus2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I doubt that Apple's move to Intel had a great deal to do with performance, and I dislike this fact being used as a key selling point for the iMac. If you refer to the "definitive" G5 vs. everyone else benchmarks at http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2436it is apparent that the G5 is largely comparable to offerings from AMD and Intel (admitedly the new Intel Core Duo is not benchmarked) and although the G5 is, in many cases, not the fastest chip, it is similar. The increases of 2-3x in performance between the G5 and MacIntel iMac are a consequence of having a dual core chip (and being a generation ahead of the G5) besides, Apple could have feasibly used the dual-core G5 chips that they've had at their disposal for a while now. Any Mac zealot will argue that their PowerPC Mac is "just" as fast as an intel based system, but performance is NOT the issue. This is why the iMac was updated first, it is a consumer product, supporting Apple's fledgling attempts to enter the living room (consider front row ) - it desperately needs Intel's brand name associated with its hardware.

    The significance of this new product is long term and cannot be underestimated.

    Apple finanlly has penetrated the consumer electronics market with the iPod, and their brand recognition and image could not be better. Apple has shoehorned its way into the psyche of the common man. It now has to bring its key product, the mac, to the masses. Consumers will be attracted from a design perspective and because it shares the same logo as their iPod, the OS is a little different to windows, but now at least you have the reasurrance of dual booting into windows (I'd like proof of this concept, but I'm sure it will come) and the processor gives the security of a well recognised brand name (consider brand strengh of Intel vs. AMD).

    In the future, I doubt that IBM's die shrunk Power chips will share the low power consumption that I expect Intel will bring, and many concepts for great products will never be realised. I'll be interested to see if the new Intel chips can match up to the PowerPC altivec-ised vDSP FFT's , but in a way I don't care. It is an exciting time to be a Mac user, as more people join the fantastic experience that we have had for so long, and new software and hardware comes our way. Either way, they're finally here and it will be interesting to see what the future holds.

    --
    Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
  37. Freescale 8641D by frankie · · Score: 3, Informative

    Freescale's e600 dualcore G4 has been "in the pipeline" for the past 2 years with no sign of pouring out. On paper it should compare quite favorably to Yonah ... if it ever ships. Yonah has a slight advantage in that department.

  38. re: I disagree by King_TJ · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The argument that "performance has reached adequate levels" rears its head every few years or so in the industry. The fact is though, everything goes in cycles. Sometimes the software development outpaces the currently available/reasonably priced hardware, and then things shift back the other direction for a little while. But the one thing that's certain is; development isn't going to come to a halt on the software side. If you develop faster, cheaper systems - eventually, software developers will figure out ways to make use of everything that's available to them. They have to, because in most cases, that's the only thing that keeps food on their tables. New versions are expected practically yearly for most popular applications, and once you've offered all the basics - what else is there to do for the next upgrade? You have to add "cool new things" that catch people's interest. Whether that means toolbars that automatically fade into the background when they're not used for a little while or voice recognition integrated into the app, built-in video tutorials or adding all new capabilities to perform tasks the app never tried to tackle at all before - you're going to need ever faster CPUs to become "commdity items" to go along with your work.

    Apple has a deep hole to keep trying to dig themselves back out of largely because the perceived "value for the dollar" of buying a Mac became VERY poor in the mid to late 90's. Sleek new systems running OS X have started turning things back around - but Apple's move to Intel means they've got to be MORE concerned with performance increases than ever before! They can't lean on an excuse (however accurate or inaccurate is really was) of "You can't compare Mhz to Mhz between Intel or AMD chips and our PPC chips!" Now, the CPUs powering their hardware are the SAME ones powering everyone else's hardware. So if your new Mac offers a 2.1Ghz CPU and a new Dell has a 3.0Ghz of the same product type - it's clear. The Dell is a lot more powerful. And the general public understands that.

  39. Re: I disagree by dasil003 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That's a fair argument, but the advent of a computer in every home is relatively recent. As much as the industry wants to keep pushing the envelope, they have to deal with the fact that customers may not be impressed enough with future enhancements to keeping buying a new computer every 3 years.

    My personal experience is that owning a 5 year old G4 that was bottom-of-the-line at the time is still a viable computer. Not only can I use it for email and web surfing, but it also pulls its weight in Photoshop and web development. Every other time I owned a five year old computer it was depressingly obsolete.

    Anyway, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I do question how long hardware sales can drive the computer industry. At the very least, the market is too mature for the kind of growth it's seen over the past 20 years. Barring some next-generation kill app, of course.

  40. See the big picture: it's no longer a 2-front war by tmoertel · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Apple switched to Intel's architecture because hardware was the only place where Apple's computing business was vulnerable to competitors such as Dell. Now that Apple is using the same architecture that everybody else is, hardware will diminish as a competitive factor. Software will increasingly determine which computers the average consumer wants to purchase.

    And when it comes to software, Apple has no peer. Apple consistently creates great applications that normal people want to use. Apple's competition, on the other hand, has demonstrated -- repeatedly -- that they cannot do the same.

    So that's the reason for the switch to Intel. Apple has moved what used to be a two-front war onto a single battlefield where it has the ability to outmaneuver all opponents.

    Smart move. Expect Apple to capture some market share.

  41. The iSupply business model: 1) guess, 2) profit! by DECS · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ISupply has been getting a lot of press about their analysis of how much manufacturers pay for parts, but where is the evidence that suggests iSupply has any inside information?

    Their analysis on Apple's part costs for the Core Duo processor are simply, "we guessed Apple gets a 10% discount," but they offer no basis for that. Apple apparently negotiated a 50% volume discount over retail in Flash RAM from Samsung. iSupply gives no suggestion where they get their 10% figure, so for all we know, they just pulled it out of their ass.

    The sensationalism surrounding iSupply's reports (available in full for a fee) make it clear that, while iSupply is in the business of selling information, it has all the integrity of a tabloid like World Weekly News or the Enquirer.

    First they released sensationalist PR that suggested that Apple was making crazy money on the iPod Nano (now pay to read the whole report!), and now they release sensationalist PR that suggests that Apple is almost losing money on the Intel based iMac (now pay to read the whole report!). The truth is clearly not as extreme as their PR flacks spun it in either case.

    Of course, on its own, a simple guess on the total cost of parts doesn't sound very exciting. But even with a sensationalist headline, a simple guess on the total cost of parts isn't very valuable.

    Journalism in general has been coasting along for some time on the reputation of a former institution that earned credibility based on dutiful, responsible reporting standards and a self imposed ethic. Professional journalism is been replaced by cheaper PR editors (within newspapers charged with first making a profit rather than providing a public service) and independent bloggers who scribble whatever comes to mind without bothering to check facts (or assume their recollection of reality is the same as a report based on facts from attributed, verifiable sources).

    The lines between [opinion/conjecture] or [commercial/political messages] and [unbiased and objective journalism] are being blurred to the point where the general public doesn't seem to even remember that they are different things.

    iSupply is a good example of presenting your personal blog/business as if it were a credible news report.

    Until iSupply can provide some basis that suggests they have any real insight into secret pricing deals, their figures are worthless. So far, all they've released is guess work based on what appears to be poor assumptions.

  42. Re:Uhmmmm by SysKoll · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I know, but what was the proportion of laptops? Remember, the point was why IBM refused to foot the bill for the engineering effort required to create the laptop-specific chipset needed by Apple's future laptop models.

    Assume Apple shipped 50% laptops, the volume would be 2 millions a year. Say 5 millions over the next 2 years (expected life of such a chipset design). Not bad, but we are talking about an engineering effort costing $50 to $200 millions. The resulting chipsets would have been $10-$40 more expensive than Intel's in order to pay for this effort, and that's before production costs kick in. You're starting to see why it wasn't a good deal even for Apple.

    Now, after its move to Intel, Apple benefits from a standard PC laptop chipset that will be sold in huge volumes (and for which development costs were footed by Intel, not Apple customers only), and IBM can focus on the consumer electronics market where the volumes are in the tens of millions a year.

    Volume, thy law is cruel.

    --

    --
    Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/

  43. IBM's chips.... by rdean400 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "IBM's chips are power hungry and generate a lot of heat, and are therefore not suitable for notebook computers."

    This is a selective interpretation of the truth. The portion of the Power family that is used in Apple products generates a lot of heat because it's based on older Power4 technology. IBM's processor roadmaps include smaller-footprint chips just like Intel's do.

    It is unlikely that Apple's move is simply about the roadmap due to power consumption. Power architecture is used in everything from cell phones to big honkin' servers. No, it's more likely that IBM's roadmap simple doesn't hit the same performance and power consumption points that Apple wants to hit.

  44. Why Intel? Jobs wanted Intel. Why now? OS 9. by argent · · Score: 5, Informative

    Apple has been trying to kill the classic Mac OS and replace it with NextStep, I mean OpenStep, errr, Rhapsody... since 1997. The original plan was for all new development to be in what's now Cocoa and was at the time called Yellow Box, and legacy apps would run in a simpler version of Classic that basically ran a whole OS 7 or 8 session in a single window, called Blue Box.

    The ISVs, paricularly Adobe, plotzed. There was a major row with threats of abandoning the platform, and Apple backed off, improved Classic, came up with Carbon as a transition API, and brought out OS 9 and eventually OS X.

    Steve Jobs reportedly had wanted to go with Intel as soon as possible. He thought Apple had made a mistake switching to the Power PC while he was away at NeXT. OpenStep ran on Intel, of course, and Apple had versions of Rhapsody that ran on Intel boxes, even on generic clones. They had a fat binary mechanism in OpenStep that supported by the end as many as five different processor architectures.

    And that's why intel. Not because IBM screwed up, but because it was in their long term roadmap and had been for years.

    But obviously... that wouldn't fly if they couldn't even cram classic Mac OS off in Blue Box.

    But they kept their Intel code base alive, and every other year, about, they tested the waters by trying to stop offering a Mac that could boot up into OS 9.

    Every time there was a user revolt.

    Until late 2004. The last G4 that could boot to OS 9 disappeared from the Apple store, without any fanfare. And, apparently, there just weren't that many people dependent on OS 9 to make enough noise to notice.

    A little over 6 months later, they announced the Intel switch.

    Rosetta will run all legacy Power PC applications... well, all legacy Carbon and Cocoa applications that run on OS X. They're not running Classic under Rosetta. Classic is dead.

    And nobody's bitching about that, either. Which means they guessed right, and Apple can finally drive a stake into the heart of Classic Mac OS and leave it behind for good.

    And that's why they did it now. Because they could.

  45. Re: I disagree by node+3 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So if your new Mac offers a 2.1Ghz CPU and a new Dell has a 3.0Ghz of the same product type - it's clear. The Dell is a lot more powerful. And the general public understands that.

    Even that's not quite true. The power of a cpu is what you can do with it, not its clock-speed. A faster chip of the exact same line is not more powerful if the software is less powerful.

    For example, for day-to-day tasks, a slower Mac is more powerful than a faster PC. For games, a slower PC is much more powerful than a faster Mac.

    When it comes to iLife style apps, a 1.25GHz G4 Mac is far more powerful than a PC (Windows or Linux) of any speed.

    Or, put another way, what's more powerful: running Windows Movie Maker on a 3 GHz cpu, or iMovie on a 2 GHz cpu?