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Danish, Western Websites Under Attack
caese writes "The BBC is reporting that almost 900 Danish websites have been defaced by crackers angry about the recent controversy over cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad. From the article: 'What is extraordinary for this Danish case is the speed in which the community united'. Another 1600 or so Western websites have been defaced by the same group. The defacements have ranged from condemnation of the cartoons to outright calls for violence."
If they start defacing websites for just a cartoon, imagine what they will do if it was a offending movie/act: take whole servers and backbones down? Oh the horror.
Serious note: Lets take a look at this situation.
Attack: Cartoon
Defense: Death threats, burn down buildings, deface websites, protests, and the list goes on.
Conclusion: Overkill?
Why can't they deface web pages out of boredom and bloody mindedness like normal people.
I wonder how long it'll be we're just all at war...seems to be what they want.
I mean seriously, if a supermarket had a sale on steak and put up cartoons of Vishnu, you wouldn't see Hindus violently protesting. Neither if they had a sale on pork and put cartoons in the window of YHWH.
People need to take a serious chill pill...
"Christ what a design! I could eat a handful of iron filings and PUKE a better emergency pump than that!"
These are not worth fighting over.
Trolling is a art,
They get angry over a cartoon but when they burn an American Flag it is OK.
Go figure.
Q: How do you know your religion is the wrong one?
A: When you riot because of a one panel cartoon.
That has the Muhammed with a bomb in his turban, a molitav cocktail in his hand and a machine gun slung over his back, with a crazed expression saying "That will teach them not to depict me and my followers as violent and intolerant.". In the backround there should be an embassy burning and lots of burning pieces of paper flying around with the words 'defaced website' on them.
For good measure, we could have a cartoon of Jesus using thumbscrews or having sex or something too. I'd host it. I think those cartoons would make an excellent worldwide protest against this sort of idiotic behavior.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
The muslim world HAS to learn to play nicely with the rest of the world or face becoming marginalized. There's only so many times people can read about young girls being gang raped to punish their brother or young girls being forced to stay inside a burning building because they don't have their headgear on... not to mention all of the totally innocent contractors, journalists and students that are murdered for doing their job or even going to school. Where are the women's rights groups?!?!? Where are the "peaceful" muslims?
ConsultingFair.com
It used to be possible to defend Islam to the right wingers in this country (USA) by saying that the terrorism and violence were coming from a relatively tiny number of the practicers of that faith with a very screwed up idea of what that faith meant. No more. Between the raging violence in France and the widespread violence and death threats coming from these cartoons, who can reasonably defend Islam as nonviolent any more?
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
Well, time to start the popcorn since I can't do much but watch. [1] Don't worry -- I won't let the tinfoil hat mess up the microwave popcorn.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
So they're getting all bent out of shape about a comic depicting them as violent and what do they do to protest the comic? They get violent, start riots and deface things.
Seems a bit counter-productive to me.
Cartoon is published that accuses my religion of supporting terrorism and violence.
I protest that characterization by calling for or comitting acts of terrorism and violence, both in the real world, and on the internet.
Nope, no hypocrisy here!
Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
The cartoons were published in September, protests happened in the last couple of weeks. Speed? Not much. What is more astonishing is the extent to which muslims have been shown to be prone to manipulation (on par or worse than the manipulation seen in the US post-9/11). I suppose that is the inherent power of mass religion, "the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions."
...it's a good thing it's not fundamentalist Christians doing the rioting.
That would be indefensible by the media.
Hey, come to think of it, there really isn't a lot of that rioting and setting-things-ablaze-for-days thing at all here in The West. Why d'you suppose that is?
g'head, g'head, discuss this amongst yourselves...
You find out the cartoons have already been circulating widely in the muslims world during height of ramadan in Oct 05. Next, you find out a Danish Immam invader added more cartoons to the bunch. Then you find out the Danes will head the security council in the near future. What makes it even more funny, is your own western papers ( not knowing the cartoons were circulated in the islamic world without riots ) then turn around and censor the cartoons to the american public -- out of multicultural sensitivity.
-----
The Ranting Sandmonkey, an Egyptian blog, illustrates just how bogus the MSM refusal to discuss the Danish cartoons "out of respect for Islam" is:
Freedom For Egyptians reminded me why the cartoons looked so familiar to me: they were actually printed in the Egyptian Newspaper Al Fagr back in October 2005. I repeat, October 2005, during Ramadan, for all the egyptian muslim population to see, and not a single squeak of outrage was present. Al Fagr isn't a small newspaper either: it has respectable circulation in Egypt, since it's helmed by known Journalist Adel Hamoudah. Looking around in my house I found the copy of the newspaper, so I decided to scan it and present to all of you to see.
------
'The past as prologue'
http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/
The cartoons were published in Egypt, and there was no problem:
y cott-egypt.html
http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com/2006/02/bo
Anyone heard about this? Looks like there is a double-standard.
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_
Anyone else find it troubling that so many sites out there are vulnerable to such attacks?
There's no genuine anger about the cartoons. They were published 6 months ago.
The cartoons are just an excuse. The cartoon riots are about rioting, not about cartoons. Rioters riot for fun and profit. Protests are arranged to gain political power for the people arranging them.
Web sites are defaced for the same reason bricks are thrown through windows. It's the same reason Reginald Denny was beat up. It's a combination of hate and the idea that "we can get away with it this time".
I advise not enabling the rioters and web-page defacers by giving them what they want: attention, concessions, etc.
..that to the way Hindus reacted when pictures of Hindu Gods were depicted on toilet seats (in UK), on footwear and on bikini wear! They had silent (non-violent) protests. Cowards? no, matured!
I certainly respect the Muslims who feel offended, but if they are going to live in a liberal democracy, they're going to have to just accept the fact that they're going to be offended.
I'm agnostic. I get offended when my state's motto is "With God, all things are possible". I don't like hearing "God Bless America" every time George Bush opens his mouth. I do understand I live in a country with religious freedom, and I'm just going to have to take it. If I can't take it anymore, I'll move to a country that supresses religious liberties.
Many of the European Muslims think they can get the good benefits of a liberal democracy (decent jobs, market-based economy), while asking for special status for their religious beliefs. Someone needs to tell them part of living in a liberal democracy is having thick skin.
You know, the usual.
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
The issue about Islamic fundamentalism (and fundamentalism in general) is that it promotes simple responses to simple stimuli. Hypocrisy is simply beyond most of these people to comprehend. Worse, fundamentalists actively seek to ignore higher-level representations. Intelligent Design is about the appearance of adopting scientific thought while actively attempting to shut it down. Islamic militants consistently praise Islam as a religion of peace while threatening others, often taking out their wrath on people who do not have anything to do with the situation. Why? No higher-order reasoning.
Bel, the mostly sane.. "Of course I can't see anything! I'm standing on the shoulders of idiots." -- Me
I dont care if they deface our website, we got backup.. The real issue is that 3 or more of our embassys have been attacked, and one of them burned down to the ground.
If those cartoons were published in the US or a other big country, they would not have dared to react like this.
Salt Lake city, Utah USA, Feb. 6 -- Mormon anger over Belgian cartoons that satirized the Prophet Joseph Smith continued to swell across the American East and elsewhere in the State of Utah on Monday, turning silly in Salt lake city, where at least five protesters Cried and more than a dozen police officers and protesters were Bored.
."
:Said Director of Freedom to draw stuff , Tobias Bunfun
UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan expressed alarm about the riots and urged restraint. But Biscuit giant Utah, which is reviewing trade ties with countries that published the cartoons, vowed to respond to "an anti-Mormon and Mormophobic Meanies
Some of the cartoons depict Smith as a Saxophonist. One image depicts the prophet wearing a Stetson shaped as a boob with an erect nipple.The other image Displays The Prophet wearing special Mormon Magic Diapers
Ministers from 17 Mormon cities on Tuesday urged Belgium's government to punish the newspaper for what they described as an "offence to Mormon".
Reporters Without Borders said the reaction in the Mormon world "betrays a lack of understanding" of press freedom as "an essential accomplishment of piss taking."
It is OK for Mormon Newspapers to depict Cartoons of Belgians eating Polish Sausage , but when a Belgian draws an Image about Joseph Smith It becomes an international crisis
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
Bottom line is these 14th century nitwits armed with modern technology are a danger to everyone for their ease of manipulation and lack of reason when it comes to anything remotely regarding Islam.
I really doubt Moslems are going to survive in their form for another 50 years. They either blunt themselves (as Christians did) or they're eliminated just like every other non-viable belief system. (Shakers, zoarastrians, et al)
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
It's not because cartoons were published depicting Mohammed as a terrorist, it's because cartoons were published. This is something that's completely forbidden in their Religion.
It doesn't matter if they depicted Mohammed as a peace-loving hippie, the reaction would have probably been the same.
Another big factor was the spread of fabricated cartoons and the incitement of violence through rumours spread via sms messages.
And of course, the fact that a few years ago Jyllands-Posten rejected Jesus cartoons on the grounds that their readers would find them offensive.
When even the peaceful protestors are chanting things like "Death to America, Death to Israel", is it painfully obvious that this is really NOT about religion. These people (and I use the term as a LARGE generalization) have so much repressed anger about their perceived state of the world that they will look for any slight as an excuse to react violently. I think is is further compounded by the fact that there is still a large population of uneducated, poor Muslims who are much like poor, uneducated Christians in the US - they have twisted their respective religions around to justify whatever moronic behavior they truly desire (like little children justifying their actions). And they will listen to anyone who gets on their soapbox and tells them to light the torches. But it is still VERY distressing that these pseudo-Muslims in particular have such a blatant disregard for human life, including their own. Things seem to be really sliding downhill...
http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm
Hypocrisy? Yes.
I wonder if the media has an agenda here?
... The best way of manipulating the public is to supress your reasonable opponents and exaggerate the unreasonable opponents. It's a subtle variation on a straw-man argument. If the only people the public sees oppose you are lunatics, it makes it much easier for them to believe yours is the only reasonable course of action. ..
See this comment made earlier today:
That particularly rung true to me because I like to digest information in quick hits. I like to check out the summaries of news items and if something is interesting, hear some commentary on it and dig a little deeper.
If all the headlines are "Muslims have taken hostages in..." or "A radical Islamic group exploded...", then people become conditioned to believe that Muslims and Islam are violent when they really aren't.
In a thread a while back, someone made a fantastic observation about Africa. The general premise was that most people still think that the entire continent of Africa is nothing more than corrupt leaders and starving children and this viewpoint was partly blamed on the media and mostly blamed on the influx and inundation of "Save the children" commericals in the 1990s.
1) Draw cartoon, publish
2) Angry mobs burn take to streets burning stuff
3) ???
4) Prophet!!!
There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Although many Muslims are upset about these cartoons for depicting Mohammed and for criticizing Islam, the reason they are so angry is becuase most countries in the area have state news agencies and so to many the cartoons are seen as an 'official' or majority opinion. The idea of a free press where an individuals's opinion is heard, especially a unique one, is unheard of. It is seen as an attack by all of the West, not just that cartoonist.
In the US and Europe, a cartoonist that does something offensive, say in this case South Park using Jesus in an 'offensive' way, results in comlaints to the network and/or the creators.
In the most of the Middle East, a cartoon (which seems to me to be criticizing Islam for being violent, ironically), is met with smoldering generic rage against not just the cartoonists, or the newspapers, or the country, but all western nations.
I am dissapointed in the crackers though. I would have thought that repressed people that had internet access would be a little more aware and less sheep-like than the unwashed masses that are usually manipulated by their rulers.
My favorite quote from a bbc article yesterday went something like this: "This is a test by western nations to see if Muslims are radical or not. Death to them and their newspapers." I wonder why they think we think they might be dangerous...
Oman is a perfect example of what a determined, hard-working people behind a good ruler can do. Very inspirational, if only the rest of the Mid-East could follow this example. It's one of the nicest countries anywhere, and I have been all over the US, Europe, and Asia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oman and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan_Qaboos
The 'Net is a waste of time, and that's exactly what's right about it. - William Gibson
Is anybody else here sick and tired of the razor-thin line we have to walk for these fundamentalists? Maybe being raised Catholic I just don't understand it, but when revelations finally surfaced that priests were molesting kids left and right I didn't feel the sudden urge to bomb or burn down a building .. not that it wasn't well known before but the black eye the catholic church received didn't spur anything like this (not 100% on that but am pretty sure). Can you imagine if a journalist did a full-blown expose on how these fundamentalists brainwash kids to blow themselves up and serve as human shields? Salman Rushdie's ordeal comes to mind ..
(Taken from my page. Seemed applicable since the indiscriminate labelling in this thread is just off the scale.)
Good and evil... right and wrong... even noble and dastardly... these are the social mileposts by which we measure ourselves and others.
In a rush to apply these labels, though, we often forget that these are not objective measurements. They are completely subjective, guided by our upbringing, our surroundings, our faith (or lack thereof), even our mood.
And when we seriously disagree with somebody elses viewpoint we often choose to label them "evil". One large, omnipresent example of this type of labelling occurred with the destruction of the World Trade Center.
It's difficult to rally people with a cry of, "Those people with different lives, values and backgrounds who felt it necessary to challenge us in a way that is foreign to our thinking must be dealt with in some fashion!"
Far more effective is the battle cry of, "The terrorists have engaged in evil acts, and must be hunted down and punished!"
Problem is, "evil" is an EXTREMELY subjective term. By many tenets of their upbringing and faith, these Muslims have every right to find the U.S. to be "evil", "decadent", even "doomed". By their morality, they are justified. They aren't wrong, because everything is a point of view. And I guarantee you that when they have their 8:00 a.m. morning meeting to discuss the agenda, the title on the page is not "Evil To Spread This Period". They firmly believe they are both "right" and "good".
There is no such thing as objective morality. There is no universal "good" or "evil". We choose to define these things the way we do because of who we are. But to expect the rest of the world - all 6 billion of us - to toe the line with respect to values is ridiculous.
I know the religious will claim that absolute "good" and "evil" exist. They'll also almost certainly believe that their particular religion is the source of these definitions. The problem is that religions are neither universal nor consistent within themselves. To declare ones own religion to be correct is to declare others to be incorrect. Many people will claim exactly that, though. To those people I have no response. There can be no meaningful discussion with somebody possessing complete, unshakeable faith. Such faith leaves no room for the idea that one might not be completely right.
But even within our own social sphere it's a big wash of grey. It's wrong to steal a stereo. It's not really wrong to steal bread when your child is starving - and no judge would sentence anybody for it. It's wrong to cheat on your fiance... unless he's a jerk and you're on board the Titanic and you meet a guy you dig - then it's romantic. It's wrong to kill. But it's not wrong to kill to defend your family. Everything is situational.
Western governments are big on tossing out the label of "evil" as an absolute. It's a useful tactic, employed by every government in wartime. The vilification of the enemy is practically a necessity. If the troops see the other side as thinking, feeling, fully-formed people, they will not kill them with the same expediency. Even more critical is the process of defining its own actions as "good", so that they do not come under scrutiny in the near term. After all, if we're "good" we shouldn't have to adjust our foreign policy (as an example).
We are a world at war. That has really only been brought home to the average North American in the last five years. And things are going to get worse before they get better.
But we can't expect to make any headway on peace through any means except by conquest unless we finally try to truly see both sides of each issue. And we can't do that until we stop painting everything in black and white. As long as we call a group "evil" we will never be able to see their side. It's a blinding mechanism.
Good and evil... right and wrong... judgments. Judgments that get in the way. These terms should only be used in measuring ourselves and our actions, because we are the only ones for whom these evaluations apply. As soon as you start evaluating others in this way, you are on extremely shaky ground.
Angry Mobs of Cartoonists Set Syrian And Arabian Embassies Ablaze
COPENHAGEN, DENMARK -- Today, several demonstrations led by angry cartoonists turned into violent riots in downtown Copenhagen. The police forces proved incapable of preventing the rioters from attacking the embassies of the countries where the cartoons pbulished in "Jyllands Posten" were considered offensive. The embassies of Syria, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia were ransacked by mobs on the rampage before being set on fire in the name of freedom of expression.
"We are absolutely outraged that those people took offense at our artwork", said one of the leading rioters. "We demand sanctions from their governments to punish such disrespect !".
The local authorities have declined to comment on the apparent idleness of the police forces towards the rioters. Denmark, which is considered a rogue state by the Middle-East countries, is accused of inciting those riots as a retaliation to the Mid-Eastern embargo on Danish Blue that started last week, following the publication of the cartoons.
In Soviet Russia, our new overlords are belong to all your base.
I find it sad that shallow and crude anti-Muslim comments are getting moderated "insightful" in this discussion: that in itself indicates what a mess we are in.
The Danish journalist (Flemming Rose) who commissioned these cartoons knew exactly what he was doing: he has more or less stated as much. There was a calculated intention to provoke, and it was successful.
Why should he have wanted to do this? It's been pointed out that Flemming Rose is an associate of, and has written approving about Daniel Pipes, the notorious Zionist neo-conservative figure who is behind the organisation http://www.campus-watch.org/, which is attempting a McCarthy-type witch-hunt against people in US universities who don't share their views.
At a time when the United States is planning yet another war against a Muslim nation, the images of Muslims rioting over this matter have acted as powerful propaganda for that war.
See also: http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2006/02/danish-cartoo n-conspiracy.html and
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1 703501,00.html for a description of how the same newspaper rejected cartoons lampooning Jesus Christ.
Allow me to comment on this as a Danish citizen.
What happened was
A Danish newspaper, who have been at the forefront of an ongoing hetz against immigrants and especially muslims, published a number of cartoons depicting Mohammed in ways that can only have been meant to express contempt. Further, if you have been following Danish news, you will know just how vitriolic and hatefilled the debate has been there for a very long time; and this is prominent politicians we're talking about. This has even been commented on in foreign news, with horror and disgust. To a moslem depicting the profet is totally forbidden, apparently, which the newspaper in question certainly knew; and not surprisingly a group of Danish moslems vented their anger in their home countries.
Personally I think it could have been defused then and there if the newspaper or the prime minister had had the decency and backbone to simply apologize; after all, there is such a thing as simple politeness, and no one would need to give up fundamental freedoms etc. How much would it actually have cost anybody if our PM had said something like: 'It is not Danish policy to insult people of other cultures, and I apologize for the distress these insensitive pictures have been published. However, I can not dictate what the newspapers print'? Not a thing.
Instead there has been a load of stilted nonsense about 'freedom of speech' - what a load of crap. Freedom is not the right to get away with whatever you do - there is a responsibility for all your actions as there should be. If you kick a hornets' nest, you'll get stung.
So, to sum it up: Denmark is festering in xenophobia and inflamed rhetoric; a newspaper decides to try to cash in on stirring up the shit and behave a spoiled brat; instead of being mature and apologize, the West is spiteful. Whatever one may think of the moslem world, this is simply not an honourable way to behave.
and would like to point out the one group of muslims which is NOT tearing down the house: those living in... Denmark. Not a single demonstration yet. They know what they have to lose. From the Cyber-angle: the foreign ministry is mounting a counter attack: arab-speaking danes are flooding chat-sites and sending SMS messages all over the middle east to try and counter the unbelievable crap which is spread this way. Chatsites right now are full with rumors that we are depicting the prophet as a pig, violently beating down demonstrations,burning the koran... So now we have government employees payed to counter-flood with more realistic descriptions of the situation in site .DK. Talk about cyber-warfare...
10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then
I generally think we should respect religion... and not go out of our way to insult it.
But, the thing is, too many religions are also political philosophies. Once you bring your religion into politics, your religion should be fair game for ridicule, insult, or any sort of nasty speech. Islam, (as well as Christianity, but I could go on and on about that, so I will leave it out of this post), is also a political ideology. It is being used as a basis for laws, for systems of government... Heck, even where I live in Canada people are pushing to have Sharia Law enforced in family courts!!!
Once you cross that line, then watch out. There is nothing wrong with insulting Islam as a political ideology, any more than there is anything wrong with insulting Socialism, or Capitalism, or Facism, or Communism. There is nothing wrong with making an insulting cartoon of Muhammad, than making an insulting cartoon of G. W. Bush. It is all part of free political discourse. Political satire is a of democracy and free expression.
If you don't want your religion insulted, then don't try to force your religious ideals on me through the political system. If you are promoting Intelligent Design, or Sharia Law, or anything else on me and at my expense through the political system, I have a right to call out your retarded political philosophy.
Instead of defacing websites, any person who is upset about having their ideology insulted should adopt the lifestyle of the 5th century from which Islamic philosophy began... That way they will not have to be exposed to a diverse global media of the 21st century. If you are going to adopt an ancient political ideology, you need an economic system and technologic lifestyle that is compatible with your belief system. It has worked pretty well for the Amish and Mennonites.
Can't trust anyone who borders on China, if you ask me.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
Most muslim's that do such things do it in a suicidal fashion, whether it's the 9/11 hijackers or a suicide bomber in Israel. I'm not sure how they'll be collecting the gold. The interpretations of the afterlife is far too great in length and scope to be in this thread so we'll skip that too.
Next, none of the attacks were done to reduce the number of infidels. Thats ridiculous logic even for the terrorists. Grats on you for believing it and the mods that modded you up. They all have political motives and something personal that drives them to the brink. The suicide bombers in Israel are typically kids who've lost family members from israeli aggression. It's a cycle of revenge for the people doing it and political for the people planning it.
Some Palestinian's openly admit they dont' do it for religious reasons and they themselves aren't very religous.
Hmmm... Pie...
And that makes them different from the average western people
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
It's not a minority of Muslims in the case of Iran, there's a democratically elected government there, the country has officially been a Muslim republic for nearly thirty years now. The democratic government of Iran broke diplomatic relations with Denmark, over a cartoon drawn by somemone who has nothing to do with the government of Denmark. If the radicals were a minority they would have been voted out of government long ago.
As to your (b) assertion, there is considerable debate about that. The suicide terrorists do have a religious motivation, a very strong motivation, to do their acts. Even if, according to some interpretations they are wrong, there are also other interpretations. I have read a translation of the Quran, but, since I don't know the Arab language, I have never read the original. I don't know how compelling these interpretations are in the original, but it must be a very convincing argument for the people to be ready to die for it.
the rest of the Islamic people better get these violent ones in line or we are rightfully headed for a clash of ideals here.
My thoughts exactly. I always think it's very hypocritical when some, allegedly moderate, Islamic cleric decries violence, yet does nothing more concrete about it. A truly moderate and responsible Islamic cleric should be the first to turn in to the police the radicals who do so much to create hate aginst Islam in the rest of the world.
Back in the day, the American's had a problem with the Ku Klux Klan. They were loud, vocal, and a Christian minority. How did the American's deal with these people? They marginalized them. They made it so that appearing anywhere and declaring loyalty to the clan instantly made you an idiot as far as anyone was concerned. Until the muslim world, - or at least the countries where these people are able to generate large amounts of public support for the actions- marginalize them, I will not respect them. I will not accept the 'minority' arguments. It is up to their own people to control them. It is not enough to simply say 'well I don't support them'. The society needs to marginalize them. Until then, the moderate opinion from any of the affected countries is a moot point as far as I'm concerned and I will not play a dove in this situation.
Sure, freedom of speech is great, but it comes with a lot of responsibility --- a responsibility Jyllands-Posten (the paper that originally published the drawings) apparently can't handle. I think I'm pretty much your average christian-by-culture/atheist-by-belief dane and I understand why the muslims are so pissed! These drawings show nothing but disrespect for the entire muslim community, both here and in the rest of the world.
Jyllands-Posten even refused to print some drawings joking with Jesus back in december, 'cause as the editor said, it would offend the readers...(!) (The drawings were something like "rising from the dead doing a double somersault" and stuff - pretty hilarious actually.) How's that for hypocrisy?
Now, I don't think the government should start apologising on behalf of the paper, neither should they start censoring the danish papers in any way --- the danish papers should simply learn a thing or two about respect for others and their religion(s).
Jyllands-Posten has even been rumoured (e.g. on CNN) to want to print the Iranian holocaust-drawings, but the editor in chief (is that what it's called?) has disputed that. Hopefully he won't change his mind.
The Muhammad drawings were stupid and absolutely needlesly provocative --- it has nothing to do with freedom of speech and it never had.
Freedom of speech != duty to speak.
"Live free or don't."
Wife? This is /. you insensitive clod!
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
Yes, but why give Islam some special status here. I see contempt for the Christianity in many publications including evening sitcoms. This is offensive to Christians. So in your view should Editors, Presidents, Prime Ministers start off every morning apologizing for freedom of thought and expression that may have occured in the prior day.
If you kick a hornets' nest, you'll get stung.
So we should make our freedom's subject to the fear of reprisals. The Hamas leader said that if someone would have been successful in acting on the Ayatollah's fatah to kill the Novelist S. Rushdie then these cartoon would not happen.
Whatever one may think of the moslem world, this is simply not an honourable way to behave.
And burning embassies and issueing death threats to cartoonist for lines on a piece of paper is? Actually the death and kidnapping threats extended to any citizen from the countries that published these cartoons regardless of affiliation.
I sure hope you do not represent the average Danish thinking.
It's just like Jon Stewart says. The moderate is quiet primarily because you don't see moderate protestors out on the streets, chanting "USE COMMON SENSE! FOR SHAME, THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE DOING BEFORE YOU DO IT!"
/* however, I really do think that a large portion of muslims living in islamic countries do believe in this sort of protest. the funny thing is that most of these people who are protesting have never seen the cartoons. and the real funny thing is that many of the protestors in the most extremist groups can't actually read the papers in arabic, much less the ones printed in european languages. you're really dealing with an ignorant, uneducated minority group in that case, and that population of people isn't going to stop burning shit */
What kind of protest would that be?
Yes, the Dutch and European papers have the free speech right to publish this cartoon, and I would vigorously defend that right, just as Salamon Rushdie was rightly defended against fatwas, etc. But we also have to ask are they using their freedom wisely? Racist, sacrilegious, cartoons help no one, whether it's intentional desecrations of Islam or anti-Semitic cartoons published in the Arab world BOTH should be morally condemned. Not censored by the government, but condemned as unworthy in a world that is capable of producing figures like Martin Luther King and Ghandi. Having the freedom to publish sacrilegious cartoons and saying it's a good idea or helpful to the world are very different things. We must simultaneously defend the right of the people publishing the cartoons while questioning their motives. Qui bono?
Know that the neo-cons are using this incident to inflame passions against Muslims in a build up to an attack upon on Iran. Think before you condemn all Muslims or their governments for the destructive acts of a few. If you do that you are playing into the hands of neo-cons who are counting on western hatred of Muslims to justify their imperialist plans to make over the middle east, most likely to prevent any country from trading oil in Euros, and to "defend" Israel who has angered the Arab world by violating international law by illegally expanding it's 1967 green line borders into the Palestinian territories.
Demonization of an entire people based on their religion is always a bad idea, did the holocaust teach us nothing?
Tired of all the isms, don't exploit people as an employer, or a government, mmmmK?
I get the point that you are trying to make, but I can't help but notice in almost all of the examples you cite, it is GOD who is doing all the smiting and death dealing, not hebrews and cristians. In the examples cited above in the Koran, all the examples involve the reader taking action and killing enemies of the faith.
If these are really accurate samplings of the respective texts, it would seem pretty clear why the Islamic faith seems to have such a violent face to it. There is a big difference in reading about how your god is going to punish the faithless, and being told it is your duty.
(Intelligent musings aside, and straight into offensive blasphmey) Perhaps Allah isn't powerful enough to smite the unbelievers himself. Has to recrute people to do it for him. If he were all badass like the cristian god in the old testament, he would just zap people with bolts from the blue.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Our prime minister has been strong, but he was let down by opposition parties, Blair, Bush, Chirac, the EU and many others, who otherwise love to praise themselves for defending freedom. The American ambassador in Denmark said: "Noone defends freedom of speech more than we do." We called 'Bullshit', and that became clearer as it became known just how much diplomatic work it took to get some statement of support from George Bush. Blair is worse. These are the people who talked us into the Iraq war. We had expected they'd immediately help us in a pinch because of that. Possibly Denmark should pull out now.
Yes, they're vandalizing web sites - friend of mine had his defaced. DDoS'ing major newspapers, too. That's peanuts compared to the real attack that went on in the sphere of politics. The only thing that saved us from losing our freedom of press was when other European newspapers started reprinting the cartoons, and the islamists became confused about which flag to burn today.
US and UK press are subverted by the government - *NO* major media dared to print the cartoons! UK/US coverage has generally been very thing. Pravda (yes, the old Russian newspaper!) clearly did better, also appropriately naming the riots 'progroms'. Until of course Putin stepped in and told us that he didn't like the free press that much. Support from ordinary Americans has been good, with 'Buy Danish' campaigns to counter the boycott, and lots of support for the 'Rigth to insult' (yes :) and in general be free citizens.
The worst is over. Time to rebuild those web sites and the embassies they torched. I've reported the instigators of this crisis to the police for treason. We'll remember those who stood up for freedom. But I'm predicting more culture clashes like this in the future.
Cherish freedom. Others put their lives on the line to gain it before us. Our day may come before we know it.
I'm in a Unix state of mind.
The only reason that these kooks are rioting over this is because they don't have sports teams that win championships.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
You could be right. All I know is that when I heard about the reaction to the cartoons, I thought, hmm. Sheep. Then I thought maybe I should put together a few cartoons featuring Jesus, you know, snorting coke off a hooker's tits or eating out President Bush's asshole. Then I realized that you have a lot of people who are way ignorant out there who wouldn't get it. Then I realized that there are probably about a billion muslims in the world who are just as, if not more ignorant than some of the retarded people I see in this country who are obsessed with Jesus more than logic. Then I realized that the leaders of these Muslim people have spun this cartoon story out to be some type of hate crime against Islam rather than the edgy melarky it was. Then I realized that it's the same sort of spin that our own leaders used to get us into the war we're in now. Then I realized that leaders use things like hate and religion and other mass motivating communications to get what they want done. Then I realized that we the poor commoners of our respective countries have more in common with each other than we do with our leaders.
That's right, we flag and ribbon wearing, Jesus loving, George Bush electing Americans have more in common with those Flag Burning, Mohammed loving, Hamas electing Muslims than we have with George Bush and the upper echelons of our government. That's what I always try to remember before I start hating. We need to love one another and try to work stuff out. How can we do that, though, if everyone remains ignorant and only listens to their leaders for direction, rather than trying to find the Truth for themselves? How can we find the Truth for ourselves when our leaders try to keep us ignorant?
It's interesting. That's why I'm staying to the sidelines. I turn my back on this whole war/hate thing. I won't even grace it with any more discussion than I already have. Why should I worry about the world when I have bills to pay, family to support, car payment, retirement in about 35 years, etc?
Conversely, I do think that people need to realize that their habits of buying expensive gas guzzling cars, bottled water, convenience items, etc. are directly leading us to a world war situation. There is no solution to the energy crisis that will affect us. The cost in energy for every human in the world to live like an American, or European or Japanese even (known for their efficiency) is higher than the available energy.
So, there are left two choices, and these are what those private meetings are about: #1 everyone gets less, #2 less people.
After the coming war, in which millions will die, millions of lives they believe are expendable, a new one world government will be in place. Ha ha, you say! Well, it's going to happen. Europe is one country now. What do you think WWII was about? WHO CONTROLS THE BANKS. England won. We won.
This war is going to decide who runs the real world show, and will also cleanse the world of excess human lives, change the structure of the middle east and place it under the control of a "neutral" government, a republic of countries. Their success will lead to the establishment of an even larger world government with one stable currency--energy. In addition, one world language and religion will be necessary. Those who don't wish to follow will be walled off, executed in the war, or given manufactured disease so it will look like an accident.
Or maybe not. Who knows what will happen. I know this much, I really don't care.
Cool! Amazing Toys.
Most of this comment isn't even a reply to what I wrote, but here:
"If you want to try to cure yourself of the problem and remove the cultural blinders, you have to do a Nigger Thought Experiment. If you prefer, you can do a Kike Thought Experiment. Instead of the Danish cartoons, image a big-lipped, bug-eyed 'nigger' eating a giant watermelon. Or perhaps you'd prefer a cloaked, hook-nosed 'kike' with a giant bag of gold 'jewing' some gentile out of his money? Would you be defending the right of the papers to publish such cartoons based on the 'enlightenment values' of the West? Would you be so proud of your precious 'free speech'?"
Yeah. This is allowed. Organizations like the KKK? Allowed to spew their hatred. That argument is totally bogus. The civilized world doesn't riot when people publish offensive stuff. Most of the time, it gets an hour or so of press and then ignored.
The cartoons were targetted at a very specific and very vocal muslim population that uses violence as a means to solving their problems. As people who want to be in prominent places, they can be ridiculed. I can see how the way it was done is *highly offensive*, but that doesn't make it okay to burn stuff down. You're just deluding yourself into the most extremeist form of political correctness if you think so.
"Here is a small list of some of the things we do to Muslims, without even a hint that there might be some moral issues involved"
You and I both know that's bullshit. No one imprisons muslim women to take them away from their families just for fun. No one bombs innocent children, calls it a mistake, but really meant to do it on purpose. No one chops down olive tree groves just to laugh at dejected muslim faces.
Lastly, It's clear you've never read the history of the Palestinian refugees and how they got there. Before you reply - and I'm pretty sure there's going to be a reply here - go look up exactly what forced Palestinian people from their lands. [Try "Arab Israelis" as a start"]
Does someone have a good list of Danish products so that one can counter the boycott? Saudia Arabia, Iran, Libya and others have announced a boycott of Danish products. This just fuels the extremist in their mission and attempts to intimidate. There should be support for the Danes in this affair.
No actually, that's a pretty close example to the islamic situation. The cartoonists are commiting blasphemy against mohammud.
And christians in the west wouldn't think of killing someone for blasphemy against god these days (tho they might if they got too much power again).
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
What a great way to prove the cartoon wrong!
"Hunny, this cartoon is saying that all Muslims are terrorists!"
"How dare they say that, we are not all terrorists, how insensitive of them! Now let's go light the neighbors on fire, that'll show em!"
Judges and senates have been bought for gold; Esteem and love were never to be sold.
This is ridiculous. The criticism of radical Islamic individuals killing people in a cartoon form is a reasonable thing. What you're talking about is just obscenity.
People are selfish. Why?
Disclaimer: Norwegian here (so this is a reply from a somewhat norwegian perspective) & I've posted about the cartoons before on Slashdot (http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=176319&cid=14 646689). Also I do support freedom of speech even if I often get offended by it myself (I consider flagburning a part of freedom of speech). Hell I've long ago gotten used to offensive stuff and ridicule: it's a natural price for having opinons that go against the flow. I'm not too fond of organized religion, I'm anti-nazi, anti-socialism/communism, pro-Bush, pro-Iraq war, pro-individualism, pro-transparency, pro-F/OSS and in the opinion of some by implication pro-schizophrenia lol :) Oh yeah and I don't fear the puzzle palace...
As others have pointed out they're not silent in the west, and a lot of them are fed up with having to distance themselves from fruitloops calling themselves muslims in other parts of the world. Anyone can get fed up if they always have to defend actions they have nothing to do with but which others link them to by some common denominator. That being said one can't exactly fault people for asking either; it's part of getting to know someone to ask about their opinons isn't it?
But take a look at those few non-cleric muslims who have spoken in favour of freedom of speech concerning the cartoons in the middle east. In slightly more relaxed countries like Egypt and Jordan they've been sued and harassed. It is no wonder that the silent majority (at least I hope it's a majority) "down there" are afraid of voicing opinion that run counter to an extremist interpretation of Islam. It's even more understandable if it's something they don't give much tought; almost all muslims in those countries live in extremely homogenized countries where almost everybody is a muslim, that's not an environment conducive to thinking about freedom of expression of those that think differently.
Speaking up in a place like Syria or Iran is tantamount to germans voicing criticism against the treatment of jews in 1940: you've got to be extremely brave to do it and you've got to expect very bad consequences of doing so. I wish they would speak up but I can't but sympathize that they don't; it so much simpler to just go with the flow and if necessary blame Israel, the US, or the EU, or Denmark, or Norway, or *insert scapegoat de jour here* for everything one doesn't like from time immemorial. Yes some people do the same here in the west; stupidity knows no boundaries of culture, gender, or ideology.
There's a lot of info that's not getting attention either in the west or in muslim countries:
- some pretty hefty misunderstandings by danish imams and muslims (however the situation is different in Denmark than in Norway, from my perspective I would say that the communities in Denmark are much more disjointed). Some danish imams when talking about the matter to fellow believers in the muslim world managed to mix up the issue with completely non-relevant pictures and impressions exaggerating their "victimization". Some of those issues didn't have the least to do with anything about Islam (or at least the prophet Mohammed) and to such a level that one can wonder if they had ulterior motives -- it's either that or they have almost no understanding of the country and continent they're living in.
- the rumour mill in the arab world, but elsewhere as well, ran completely out of control: there's a lot of misinformation out there that's 100% false and exaggerated
- a severe lack of knowledge about how important the concept of freedom of expression is in the west, what the background and philosophy is, what it actually means. There's a need for an introduction to Voltaire
- a severe lack of knowledge about how the relation between free press and the state is in western democracies
- a severe lack of understanding about the fact that in the west you are not (as an individual or as a state) expected
this comment is provided "as is" and without any express or implied legibility or congruity [...]
I swear, I just don't get it. First off ... I'd never be out in the streets rioting over anything ... but what I don't understand is how the heck somebody can riot ... go home at the end of the day ... watch some TV, eat some dinner, go to sleep ... wake up the next day ... then decide it's time to burn some more shit. Like, how do you slot that into your day when you're thinking about your schedule? How the heck do you get yourself all pumped up after sleeping it off for the night?
That's what I always try to remember before I start hating.
I started hating when a person I actually know (a high genius in fact) was bashed into retardation by a pack of young Muslim males. And lots of girls in my community have been pack raped by similar gangs of Muslim males. Is it okay if I hate for that?
We need to love one another and try to work stuff out. How can we do that, though, if everyone remains ignorant and only listens to their leaders for direction, rather than trying to find the Truth for themselves?
I DID find the truth for myself. From some Egyptian, Iranian, Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian friends who were chased out of their own damn country because they were NOT Muslim. They as refugees in my country are the loveliest people. I can't say the same for their Muslim nationals who came here as refugees.
Europe is one country now. What do you think WWII was about? WHO CONTROLS THE BANKS. England won.
England REJECTED the Euro for the longest time. This is completely crazy. BTW, England didn't start the damn war.
Did you know that those cartoons were re-prints. They had been published previously in Denmark, even in Egypt (in October 2005!), without the worldwide baying of "muslims" for blood.
7 46
:0)> ) it is the Islamic states which are using the caricatures as a sort of reverse propaganda (perhaps it's a soviet thing?!?). "Look what you've done, these cartoons give us the right to murder a few people and burn a whole bundle of stuff down ...".
See eg http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48
If you ask me (which I know you were going to
That's what it looks like to me.
That's right, we flag and ribbon wearing, Jesus loving, George Bush electing Americans have more in common with those Flag Burning, Mohammed loving, Hamas electing Muslims than we have with George Bush and the upper echelons of our government.
Come on man, give me a break. You're making the West out to be the moral equivelent of the terrorists here. This must be a joke. We don't surround embassies with guns and blow them up if a newspaper prints something we don't like. We don't send our women and children to blow up random people on the street trying to live their lives peacefully in order to be greeted by 76 virgins when we arrive in heaven. We don't hijack planes and fly them into buildings in nations that don't declare our religion as the official religion. We don't kidnap journalists, construction workers, or doctors and cut their heads off and send the video out over the internet. We don't send suicide bombers to a wedding reception. We don't murder people that have political dissagreements with us.
I think you really need to spend some time thinking about this more and doing more research. Sometimes there IS right and wrong, good and evil. Muslims are not evil, but there is a small group of people that are EVIL that have hijacked this noble religion.
No Sigs!