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Keeping the OS/2 Flame Alive
nanday writes "Ever wondered what happened to OS/2? With IBM officially abandoning the operating system last year, users are relying on a third party version of OS/2 -- and, increasingly, using free and open source software to keep
it alive." From the article: "According to Haverblad, the main reason that users stay with OS/2 is for 'features that Windows and Linux don't have yet.' He singles out the REstructured eXtended eXecutor (REXX), an interpreted programming language known for its ease of use, a 'rock solid kernel,' 'excellent multitasking,' and low system requirements. Haverblad also claims a lack of viruses and spyware and, referencing a report on OS/2 Warp Server by Secunia, fewer security vulnerabilities." Newsforge is also an OSTG site.
REXX was also available for Amiga...and others...
See: http://rexxla.org/Links/
Unfortunetly for OS/2 is that the installed software base is very small. So if you are content with whatever software is out there for OS/2 (old versions of browsers, etc) and don't have a fast computer then yes I agree OS/2 is worth it. Otherwise you're better off with Linux, Windows or maybe even Solaris.
REXX is something that the Amiga had too. But I think that REXX only really works if the majority of applications have hooks for it. Linux and Windows will never have useful REXX support because they have been going for too long without it. There would have to be a massive grass roots effort to add it to all the software, somewhat like when the Unisys started enforcing the gif patent
I would still be using OS/2 if it was receiving regular updates for new hardware. I feel that if IBM was to relook at the OS, they may gain some market share because users are now more educated as to the workings of a computer.
[%] Cingular Ringtones
Just FYI, the WarpDriver project never went anywhere. A few lines of code were written many years ago, but that was it. I don't think anyone ever used it. I'm surprised it was mentioned.
I suppose there are people using the abacus too.
http://religiousfreaks.com/Considering the timeframe OS/2 was developed in, and its complexity excuse me if I don't believe it is secure. Most of the software from that timeframe has been shown to have a LOT of security problems, primarily because the training, and tools to discover holes didn't exist at the time.
... I don't think so... Linux, and BSD, in their lifetimes have had lots of security problems, particularly as they have grown in popularity.
/appears/ to be secure is because it isn't worth any one's time trying to crack it.
Plus a complete OS that is secure?
If OS/2 was released OpenSource tomorrow and got popular you'd have it with the MOST security venerabilities by years end I guarantee it.
The ONLY reason OS/2
Haverblad also claims a lack of viruses and spyware.
um, having a lack of USERS tends to do that.
"Is this just useless, or is it expensive as well?"
OS/2 is like timeclocks, typewriters, card punches, hard disks, and PCs. High-growth business supporting commercial clients in its time; but now the action is in Linux. There's a REXX for Linux.
And you can still get OS/2 licenses if you want. Just not from IBM.
In my opinion this is nothing more than a bunch of people / companies who try to postpone the inevatible. "If it isn't broke, don't fix it", which will reduce costs in itself. But only for so long... OS/2 was nice, but now it really dwells in the realms of other old OS's.
Well, it was made in Western Kentucky.
I'm on an OS/2 machine right now, at work.
REXX is a poor replacement for Perl.
'Sensible' is a curse word.
I remember versions OS/2 being given out for free on CD on the front cover of magazines. Are these free versions downloadable from anywhere? And will it run in Virtual PC?
"The White House is not an intelligence-gathering agency," -- Scott McClellan, Whitehouse spokesman.
Others include Linux (regina).
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
Not to mention that Mac users had AppleScript before, during and after OS/2. Nothing to see here, move along!
os/2 is compatable with 90% of all windows apps still. aside from things that really are part of windows you can run almost anything with it still.
its big problem is its really primative compared to many of todays oses. But its ok if you dont mind the rough look and a little hassle.
There are about a dozen more than this. See Interpreters. Its a pretty well supported language on just about every platform. Though its really only naturally at home on Z-OS and I-OS and that's where it makes sense to use it.
I developed for OS/2 for about 7 years. Yes the kernel had threads and a solid multitasking support but the flawed design of Presentation Manager (PM) caused a single rogue app to lock up the desktop and making it useless. The single message queue that IBM designed in PM, was one of the worst technical design decisions ever made. There added many workarounds to kill rogue apps but the results were pretty unreliable.
No, NT was developed by Microsoft independently of IBM. NT did offer an OS/2 compatibility layer early on, but it has a completely different kernel.
And its not the stuffy old version that came with OS/2 either, it's the more modern ObjectREXX. Enjoy.
If any of you (like me) had fun back in the days of dial up BBS's .. and liked OS2 (I kinda liked DesqView also) , Rob Swindell still keeps Synchronet the telnet BBS package alive (along with its OS/2 Build).
.. But its good to see they're still alive and kicking.
:) Fun stuff.
While he hasn't made much changes to them over the years the message base networks / online games are still really active. Someone mentions OS/2 and I instantly start thinking back to the days of playing Trade Wars.
Wow makes you feel like a dinosaur and not even much past 30
Memories
I used to code in REXX in 1989.
It was pretty handy for scripting, useful as "glue" between different things and all that.
By 1989 standards, mind you.
I think modern things (like AppleScript/Automator) can probably do everything REXX could ever do, and more, while being more readable to us humans.
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
What is the point in reviving OS/2 now. Another OS is the last thing we need at this hour. And how much ever be the robustness of OS/2 as claimed by its users, I think it is high time enough to move on and let some things remain as they are - ie history.
Linux Help
for all things on Linux
BTW, what's "unsolid" about the NT kernel itself?
-- Bill Gates, from "OS/2 Programmer's Guide" (forward by Bill Gates)
Paid Q&A/Research
features that Windows and Linux don't have yet.' He singles out the REstructured eXtended eXecutor (REXX)
How about http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=REXX+linux&bt nG=Google+Search
http://www-306.ibm.com/software/awdtools/obj-rexx/
We have apps running in Object REXX on Windows.
Thank you for today's sermon Reverend Ch-Chuck. So, as I leave these hallowed html halls of /. (on my way back to msnbc.com), is today's lesson on Chauvinism analogous to OS/2 followers? IBM is napolean? Well done, sir. 'Tis quite a morsel for me to savor the remainder of the day. Well done.
I hope, when they die, cartoon characters have to answer for their sins.
There are probably elderly PCs running Dow Jones feed servers in many banks still, probably even running OS/2 1.3 on the command line as it Just Worked, even to the point that there were attempts to port applications to v4/Warp when it was released. It had an amazingly fast boot time even compared to DOS but even when IBM had a burst of zealotry over Warp and tried to promote it as the Internet desktop of the future (I still have a few of those 60 day trial CDs that got everywhere at the end of 1994). It's good to know that it's being kept alive as despite its foibles, it had a potential that neither Linux, Windows or OS X have managed to really live up to, as a light, fast, multithreading application server. Just perhaps not a desktop.
On that day, OS/2's architect, Gordon Letwin, posted USENET message explaining why the system was doomed in the market. After that, it was all downhill.
Pretty sure there's also a standalone REXX for Windows. I'll let somebody else do the Googling and leech the +1, Informative.
While I don't subscribe to the fanboy lit, I do remember being really impressed with OS/2 back in 1995 or so.
Does anybody here have an ISO of the last version? I would love to spend some quality time poking around for old time's sake. (just send an email about it if you don't want to advertise having a copy to the world)
I'm done with sigs. Sigs are lame.
...just like Mac OS.
Support Right To Repair Legislation.
So OS/2 has REXX, a solid kernel, excellent multitasking, and low systems requirements.
Good. But not unique. And a $259 price tag makes it considerably more expensive than Windows, Mac OS X or Linux.
So... for the people who don't want to run Windows, but want to use a PC, maybe a nice OS/2 emulation layer for Linux? Maybe IBM could donate the documentation and money necessary to sponsor a FOSS developer for a year or something.
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
I think it's worth pointing out this petition over at OS2World.com (which is still accepting signatures), asking IBM to release the source of OS/2.
There are apparently some legal issues -- the most frequently cited one is that IBM might not hold copyright to all the code, since the project was originally done in collaboration with Microsoft and Corel -- but the request is that IBM open up all of the code that it has available and can legally release, and note what parts it can't, so that they could be re-implemented.
I'm not sure it's ever going to happen, but it sure would be nice if it did.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I work at a PBS station and our voice mail system is OS/2 based. We had some hard drive issues lately and we found some OS/2 guy to fix it. As far as stability goes, aside from the occasional downtime due to user error from the absurdly complex interface (our VM software), its stable as can be.
Anyway, within a 50 foot radius, there are a couple OS/2 boxes here at work as I am typing. You will always see at least one if you work with mainframes or some tape libraries in a data center, like I do. Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on perspective) I almost never have to touch OS/2. I was well acquainted with how to reboot an OS/2 box when it was used as a fax server at a previous job, but in recent jobs, I never see them ever go down. Its presence is certainly around us, even if it seems to be behind the scenes.
This might be interesting, if it's even true, but it's still offtopic.
May the Maths Be with you!
wonder if anyone could offer me a quick bit of advice (Sorry, I know this is O/T!). Our phone system, apart from being ancient, runs on a 166Mhz Cyrix (lol!) with OS/2 installed. If the hard disc in that machine fails, we are buggered as our telco no longer supports OS/2 and wants us to upgrade (a snap at £8,000!).
My question is - does anyone know how I can make a perfect hard disc image that I can restore from if the Rickety 2Gb Segate in the box fails? Any advice greatly appreciated.
Jonny.
"Ever wondered what happened to RSX? With Digital Equipment Corporation officially abandoning the operating system, users are relying on a third party version of RSX -- and, increasingly, using free and open source software to keep it alive." From the article: "According to Strobe, the main reason that users stay with RSX is for 'features that RSTS and RT-11 don't have yet.' He singles out the Massachusetts General Hospital Utility Multi-Programming System (or MUMPS), a database programming language known for its ease of use, a 'rock solid kernel,' 'excellent multitasking,' and low system requirements. Strobe also claims a lack of viruses and spyware and, referencing a report on RSX showing fewer security vulnerabilities."
Ever wondered what happened to OS/2?
No.
eComstation is keeping the flame alive for those that are interested.
ObjectRexx is also available for many platforms as noted above.
Have you Meta Moderated t
Could we stop chauking up the lack of virii to the quality of the OS?
I mean, honestly, no OS/2 virii? Is there any reason to target the 10 people out there still running OS/2 Warp with a virus?
While I will agree that good OS design will prevent the kind of zombie take over of a machine that allow viruses to propogate and activate without user intervention, I don't believe for a second that ANY OS is virus proof.
Virii are weapons of mass desctruction, that is, they want to have the greatest number of targets. An OS/2 virus, even if it had a 100% infection rate, would not make the news rounds, and might get a quick blurb on Slashdot. Virus writers are not going to waste time exploiting OS/2.
We have seen a virus launched against OSX recently, probably due to the higher profile Apple has been getting recently with their new Macintel machines. Before this, people assumed OSX was virus proof, but its just that it wouldn't make an impact to write an OSX virus unless the writer can claim some fame by having it affect the greatest number of people and be talked about in the news.
Also, when it comes to OS/2 having lower system requirements, it WAS written for computers designed about 15 years ago. I doubt OS/2 Warp server would be able to run or peform well with the typical client load that most servers today have to contend with. Email spam filtering alone can bring a modern server to its knees, I doubt OS/2 Warp Server would be able to function properly with 256mb of RAM, 10 gb hard drive space running on a Pentium class CPU even handling the email load a typical small business puts on today's servers.
Anyways, I don't believe that OS/2 has any better ability to fight off virii then any other OS, just that its been forgotten about except by those too cheap to upgrade to a new computer and OS.
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
I don't see how people can keep something running that was designed for mainframes back in the early 70s! The last time I saw OS2, it was running under VM on an old IBM 4341. :)
you had to ask a question like that... eh? there is not much unsolid about the kernel... its the stuff a few doors north in the OSI model that seem to get it bashed (no pun intended)
sig goes here!
Wikipedia: Abacus
It was in use centuries before the adoption of the written Hindu-Arabic numeral system and is still widely used by merchants and clerks in China and elsewhere.
Abacus schools and competitions are still common in Japan. The better instructors are known for being very strict, not above getting a little physical when disciplining students.
OS/2 is the crappiest OS ever!
How's that for keeping a flame alive?
Joking... just joking...
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
REXX is a poor replacement for Perl.
But an elegant replacement for BASIC!
Regardless, the golden years of REXX, and for that matter OS/2, have passed. The world has moved on, barring some pockets of legacy code here and there.
"Considering these circumstances, why do users continue to support OS/2?"
Probably for the same reasons people insist on using ugly GUIs when there are myraid cleaner, more intuitive ones. Not necessarily a good one.
When I was running Warp 3 (back in 95 or 96), I managed to get infected with a DOS virus (because Warp Blue had Dos and Windows 3.1 preinstalled). I never noticed until I ran an antivirus program on a lark, because the virus couldn't adversely affect the system -- the multitasking and multithreading just let OS/2 work around everything the virus was trying to do.
I miss OS/2. Workplace Shell is a thing of beauty. I hope Voyager works out.
Eviscerati.Org: All Hail the Eviscerati
On OS X AppleScript works much like REXX and lots of apps have hooks for it.
80% of the ATM machines in North America are running OS/2 right now. I'd call that one hell of an install base. I know this becuase my company does remote IT support for several banks, including one that plans to be the largest financial institution by the end of 2007. In that bank, a civil war is being fought between the Wintel and Unix/Linux side to decide what these ATM machines will run when IBM drops support. I do not know about you, but it scares the crap out of me to put in my ATM card and the next thing I see is a blue screen. That is when Mr. Crowbar will have to take over.
I don't think this is a unique problem with just PM; I have seen MacOSX have the same problem with the finder locking the system in an unusable state (spinning ball). Windows does the same thing with Explorer -- locks with an hourglass.
Sorry, I actually program in REXX, and "ease of use" is not the first thing that comes to mind. FUCKING HEADACHE, maybe. There are a dozen languages right handy that are easier to use, and especially debug, than REXX. Whenever possible I avoid it. If I'm doing glue scripting, TCL is my language of choice these days.
One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
I use/used it for about 10 years now. I dont use it for my primary duties though, mostly just playing around on it and enjoying the WPS. I just recently setup an old Netfinity server running WSEB (v4.5) with RAID, Mozilla, Staroffice, VPC, Java, Netfinity apps, a newsreader and some other goodies. Sytem is rock solid and stable and pretty snappy on dual PII 450s no less. OS/2 will never be opensourced because there's too much M$ and IBM code mixed in together. For machines that just have to run attended for years doing something, OS/2 is a perfect match. The only thing that sucks now is that any updates (fixpaks,drivers,USB) for the operating system require a paid subscription which I cannot afford. I wish they allowed access for hobbiests.
-- After all is said and done, more is said than done.
(I know, the article is about IBM OS/2, not Microsoft's. Microsoft and IBM parted ways after version 1.3, with IBM working on version 2, while Microsoft focused on building a more ambitious version 3, which eventually became Windows NT version 3. The rest is history. But yes, Windows NT in its embryonic stages was originally supposed to be Microsoft OS/2 version 3. Windows NT could still use HPFS file systems and run OS/2 binaries until, I believe, Windows 2000. Not that there were a lot of killer apps out that used the OS/2 v1.x API, but you could actually still run them on NT 3 and NT 4)..
I remember years upon years upon years ago when I was in my senior year in high school and the student administrator of their QNX-based network, the teachers in my district were approaching a pay-deducted computer purchase plan, and my teacher was planning a lecture on "What to look for" in a prospective computer.
The session was closed-door but there was a window in the door and I was pretty good at reading lips. I remember with fondness watching him pull an acetate off his desk, whip it up onto the overhead, and write OS/2 in the largest possible letters he could fit on the 8.5 x 11" sheet. For a good hour he went on and on and on and on about how OS/2 was going to rule the world and outlined the recommended specifications for running OS/2 on a PC. I believe this was at the dawn of the 80286 era if memory serves.
I still e-mail him a few times a year. And I still bug him about it. He's a great guy and one of the most brilliant minds in computer science I have ever met. But he got sucked in by OS/2 huge.
It's time to let the damn thing die.
-1 Flamebait.
There is an effort underway to create an open source clone of OS/2. You die-hard OS2'ers might want to check it out and get involved...
// TODO: Insert Cool Sig
Arexx and arexports in programs was included in AmigaOS from 2.0 (1990). Applescript was included as late as 1993 in MacOS. Apple as always taking credits for something they didn't invent.
Another thing i liked a lot about OS/2 is the WPS, that maybe by now there are better desktops, but back then was wonderful, still waiting some of their features in modern desktops like KDE.
I ended up working for IBM doing OS/2 technical support after a couple of years. IBM really did have a highly rated support line despite the fact that out of all the people training with me, I was the only one who'd ever used the system. After about a year on the phones, they promoted me to electronic forum support, where I answered questions from users posting on CompuServe. Remember CompuServe? We had quite a presence there. I specialized in REXX and networking, although I would frequently hit the other forums as well.
I was also an advocate for the OS because it really did suck less than Windows. In fact, it sucked less than Windows right up until the Windows XP/ME timeframe. In many ways, the OS/2 interface is still superior to Windows. I attended a couple of COMDEXes with Team OS/2 and attended several local Team OS/2 events at ham fests and things like that.
At its peak, OS/2 had an estimated install base of 10,000,000 users despite the PCCO's refusal to pre-install the OS on systems for customers. We're all familiar with why they didn't -- Microsoft would revoke the volume discounts for any manufacturer preinstalling a competing OS on systems being sold. That was one of the nails in the OS/2 coffin. Others included the attitude in IBM that PCs weren't real machines and if you wanted a real OS you should be running AIX, the refusal of engineering to fix several really annoying little bugs, and several other factors as well. The two most annoying bugs were the tendency for the Workplace Shell to become corrupt (Binary registry files and all that...) and the single system input queue which would allow one application to hang the entire shell. Half-assed hacks were made to work around both problems, but they were half-assed and sucked.
Around 95, I saw the writing on the wall for OS/2 and downloaded a copy of slakware 1.0 off the Internet. I've been using Linux ever since then.
As for its advantages, REXX was an advantage over the DOS batch file language, but honestly what isn't? Perl, ruby and python all provide similar features and you're far more likely to find someone who knows how to write in one of those than in REXX. REXX was also quite limited, possibly even intentionally crippled, in what it was capable of doing. Interacting with the WPS and GUI components was always a pain in the ass, if not completely impossible. Network communications was impossible with the version of it that I used.
The OS/2 kernel WAS rock solid outside its third party drivers, and as far as I know no one ever managed to write a virus for it. The WPS was always the biggest draw but IMHO IBM ruined it after OS/2 2.0 or 2.1. It was hideous in Warp 3 and later. Gnome kind of looks like the WPS -- very similar object desktop concepts, and the WPS used an early version an object system similar to CORBA to provide access to desktop objects. I never really liked icons on my desktop to begin with, so I don't really miss it all that much.
Inside IBM most of the OS/2 people I knew switched to Linux after IBM killed the system. There might still be a few hold-outs lurking in the bowels of the company, but most of the stuff you need for t
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
What does this have to do with OS/2?
Sitting right in front of me, in the original box, are:
14 OS2/ Warp V3 Install floppies
4 OS2/ Warp V3 Display Driver floppies
3 OS2/ Warp V3 Printer Driver floppies
16 OS2/ Warp Bonus Pack floppies
1 OS2/ Warp Demonstration floppy
NOTE: Floppies are 3.5" 1.44MB.
If VISTA is the answer, you didn't understand the question
even gear thats been sitting in its original package untouched for 10yr is likely to have "issues".
Also, sometimes, newer hardware sucks slightly less than the older stuff.
I remember back in the day, I ran OS/2 with the WPS ripped-out, using some IBM employee-written freeware/shareware/whateverware called TShell as my text-mode interface. That thing multitasked like a beast in very little RAM. Great for my BBS machine. I came to the OS/2 world from an Amiga, so real multitasking was very important to me. Now I have several times more RAM on my videocard than I had in that whole machine. w00t!
Yeah! Trade Wars rocked/rocks!
I wish they would open the source to that in as much as they are probably not making much selling it at http://www.eisonline.com/TradeWars/ anymore.
"If God had intended us to walk he would not have invented roller skates." -- Willy Wonka
This is being kept alive for sentimental reasons. A lot of OS/2 geeks got their first woody, viewing interleaved GIF 87 files, via Compuserve Information Manager on OS/2 in 1024x768. ( GO OS2PR0N )
Linux has REXX.
Linux has 'rock solid' Kernel (Notice the 'Freudian' return to references of arousal).
Linux has excellent multitasking and low system resource requirements (Toms RTBT).
Linux has a vacuum in the spyware/virus front.
Linux has no OS/2 config.sys. (One file to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them)
C'mon, guys! This is like configuring startup with Sendmail.cf!
"Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
Given IBM's leadership in driving the open source market, why would they not open it for the community to make it stronger for those who still want it?
A while back, IBM released ObjectRexx to the opensource world. The OORexx project is hosted on Sourceforge http://oorexx.org/ It runs just fine under Linux, and can be used as a straight scripting language for shell scripts.
Complexity and security are not oppposites. All modern operating systems are complex but they tend to have varying levels of security. Cryptography and fine-grained access control significantly increase complexity but also harden a system. In otherwords, complexity can make security weaker or stronger.
Given multiple products competing in the same space for any timeframe, some will have lower standards than others. You cannot conclude logically that all products for a given timeframe will therefore have lower standards. The reality is quite the opposite of your statement. OS/2 had a market presence the same time as DOS and Windows 3.1 but it was far superior, offering features found in all operating systems today. In terms of stability and security, it was years ahead of the game, hence its popularity. When a system is designed does not necessarily indicate its performance for any metric. How a system is design and built, on the otherhand, does.
What training would that be? The techniques for cracking systems today have been around for as long as computing. Computer science and cryptography with computers are likewise just as old as any computer system. As for tools, you mean debuggers, packet sniffers, profilers, and so forth?
Besides your guarantee, what are the reasons for this? Apache HTTPD is open source yet has far fewer vulnerabilities than Internet Information Server. Why does open source mean more vulnerabilities?
Or perhaps it is well designed. Another false argument along these lines is used to explain why Windows has more vulnerabilities than any given Linux distro: because its ubiquity. When you consider the wide-spread use of Apache versus IIS, you see this argument holds no water.
Join Tor today!
Ever see the cheesy Tom Cruise movie Coctail? Great quote...
"Bury the dead, they stink up the place"
Horns are really just a broken halo.
Even when it was a so called supported product, we could never understand why they had zero interest in developing a browser. When they finally did it was a personal project of guys inside IBM that got product-ized but basically not supported. Similarly the nntp client and bunch of other stuff like that.
We could never understand why IBM could NEVER fix the single threaded IO queue no matter how many times we complained about it.
We could never understand why they never made an effort to improve or at least fix the fixpack process which could often as not leave you with a non operating system.
We could never understand why the desktop utilities were so incomplete that freeware or sharware like FM/2 were necessary.
We could never understand why we could get a bunch of APPC/APPM com tech support engineers on the phone but NO ONE inside the company was allowed to acknowledge the existence of Ethernet.
IBM already started a project to emulate OS/2 at the API level, but not many people actually appear interested: http://os2linux.sf.net/
"OS/2 has done'r bit for the big blue. Let'er go, let'er be at peace in software heaven."
Are you sure this isn't a description of the Amiga OS?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
When you consider the wide-spread use of Apache versus IIS, you see this argument holds no water.
All I really see from this statement is that you have no understanding of logic. That's not too much of a problem here on Slashdot - handwaving and misdirection seem to win most arguments I read on this site.
Note: I am not speaking to the assertions regarding vulnerabilities in any way. I am merely pointing out that the quoted statement has no value as the rebuttal it was intended to be.
Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
Linux does the laundry
Linux does your shopping
Linux takes your poodle for a walk!
You can even slice a tomato with Linux!
Stays sharp, never dulls!
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
I walked up to my bank machine a couple months ago and found it was buggered, sitting at the OS/2 boot splash screen with an error. I was intrigued and did a bit more reading, and it really is still the dominant OS for ATMs. Honestly, that use alone is probably enough to ensure support into the future, someone will pick it up, either a bank or a bank service provider, because the risk to change these things is large...
OS/2 was ported to powerPC and they supposedly fixed the single message queue however that project was unfortunately cancelled.
I was then given a Gateway 486 running win 3.1 and no longer needed to tunnel through the OS at the command line (sorry, DOS doesn't count in my eyes) just to see what it was capable of. I was given an O'Reilly book back in 1995? that was an intro to RH linux 6.0 I think, and I was able to once again tinker with the computer and see how much more productive I could become because I was forced to get things like sound, modems and X working the way I wanted. Haven't looked back since and now I use Slackware 10.2, PCBSD and OpenBSD but most importantly consider myself a much less ignorant about being productive with computers.
I remember trying out OS/2 Warp 4 a decade ago. Big whoop. It was like Windows NT3, but better. It was like Linux+X11, but with a nicer installer. It was like a lot of things done a little cleaner than usual, but nothing really stood out much. It ran Dos apps, it ran a few Windows apps. A few of my BBS'ing friends ran Maximus on it because it multitasked smoother than a Dos box in Windows. That's about it.
Why haven't these people moved on to greater things ? IBM may have officially dropped OS/2 a year ago, but in spirit they abandoned it before it even had a chance to flourish. They lost all hope when Windows 95 was released. These people should be moving to Linux/BSD.. they should have done that years ago.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
Jeez, your comment took me back. I built my first PC in 1993 with OS/2 Warp 3, and had a BBS running on it for two years. TradeWars was one of our top rated games. I later upgraded to Warp 4 and tried to keep it going, but I ended up getting a job supporting NetWare and Windows networks, and haven't used OS/2 in many years. I still have fond memories of learning all about computers by playing around wtth OS/2 in those days. It was an exciting time because it seemed this was the platform that would become the desktop standard, simply because Windows 3.1 was such crap, but things didn't work out that way after all.
Of course the file manager was such a raging PoS that it inspired a plethora of shareware replacements the most notable of which was FM/2. Then, of course, not learning from history Nautilus got buggered up to become an even clumsier imitation.
Actually the OS/2 compatibility is still there. Unfortunately it can only run 16-bit console-mode OS/2 1.x applications, but still.
I still have a the old OS/2 1.3 CMD.EXE around here somewhere...
Actually, OS/2 is vulnerable to viruses through its Windows compatibility mode. For true virus resistence, I recommend Apple DOS!
I bet you there is some SCO code in there :-)
I own an OS X machine but I'm kind of a tinkerer and I'd love to install it in an emulation environment like Q (which incidentally is the first released and working Intel-on-Intel emulator for OS X, with at least some of the expected performance gain over emulating Windows on PowerPC) to try it out.
A lot of OS/2 geeks got their first woody, viewing interleaved GIF 87 files, via Compuserve Information Manager on OS/2 in 1024x768. ( GO OS2PR0N )
*sniff* You speak of things I know all too well... It's a good thing you didn't talk about hacking your parent's cserve password to get into the Adults Only forum. Then I'd cry.
Ex nihilo nihil fit.
I'd say that these days perl (or even ruby) is to UNIX what REXX was to CMS and OS/2.
The integration of perl with the UNIX kernels (you can make calls to all the APIs from the C lib) is probably even tighter than the one from REXX to its OS. And the original OS was not OS/2, but CMS !
That it was at least as integrated with AmigaDOS. It was the system-wide scripting language and all applications had hooks for it. It wasn't just a REXX implementation.
KeS
However, as a user-not-coder, what I really liked was Presentation Manager and the Workplace Shell.
If they DO make OS/2's parts Open Source, I hope someone will port that wonderful interface to Linux. If they could do that successfully, I do believe it would vault over Gnome and KDS in popularity.
It just WORKED.
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
If an argument supports that a claim is true in general, the argument is shown to be invalid if an example to the contrary is found. Mind clarifying the mistake for my benefit?
Join Tor today!
Haverblad also claims a lack of viruses and spyware and, referencing a report on OS/2 Warp Server by Secunia, fewer security vulnerabilities.
You know my microwave has a shockingly low number of virus infections and security vulnerabilities too, but I don't try to run a database application off of it.
But saying that it has few viruses, is like saying Unicorns don't need rabies shots...
That is why it uses REXX.
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
The Apache counter example is only a single datapoint, and it is only applicable about statements regarding vulnerability comparisons between Apache and IIS. It has no factual bearing on any other situation - it can only bolster opinion in an emotional manner.
For the record, I find the entire popularity argument to be fallacious, because there is no way to find a definitive answer. Factually, Windows has been more vulnerable than any other OS in wide use. Whatever the underlying cause is has no bearing on this ultimate effect.
Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
OS/2 has precious little to do with NT. The networking, which is a separate subsystem under OS/2, was developed by the joint team from Microsoft and IBM at the time when Microsoft was developing Windows 3.x (Windows for Workgroups). Even that has changed quite a bit since then.
The OS/2 kernel was a new system designed from the bottom up. Windows NT was redesigned by Dave Cutler from DEC. The moniker "Windows New Technology" was derived from the flagship DEC product: WNT = VMS by adding one to each letter. The first versions of OS/2 were capable of running on a 286 processor and was used for many years to run Automated Teller Machines (ATMs). Windows NT never ran on the 286 architecture.
...than you think it is. :-)
:-)
Keep in mind that Warp has the equivalent of a super DOSEMU and 16-bit Wine built in, meaning things like Visio, Quicken, and other useful apps run just fine out of the box. Older versions of that software, yes, but Visio 4 *still* beats any of the open source programs for general usability, at least IMO.
Not only that, but many common programs found in Linux (e.g., slrn, XV, pine, mutt, ncftp, midnight commander) are also ported to Warp, so one can still read USENET and e-mail from a text console the way God intended.
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
(REXX), an interpreted programming language known for its ease of use
Sounds like a great replacement for Perl to me.
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
Yes, exactly what I was going to say.
Yes, and AppleScript is very tightly integrated with MacOS, giving it extra value (this coming from someone who doesn't like Macs, mind you). While GNU/Linux may "suffer" from not having a scripting language tied to everything in it, it benefits from the flexibility of having all languages be on equal footing and having to compete on features rather than favored language status. Although, if I had to pick a language to be tied into my OS, it would probably be Lisp. And, yes, I've used Rexx and AppleScript.
It's not exactly the WPS, but DFM is working in that direction. I tried it out a long time ago (when I had first switched from OS/2 to GNU/Linux) and gave it up shortly thereafter. I used to be a hardcore OS/2 user, but I switched to GNU/Linux in college to learn it for a job, and I haven't looked back since. There were some things I missed in the beginning, but over time GNU/Linux has made much more headway, and kept the features that OS/2 *still* doesn't have, that I have been extremely happy with GNU/Linux. Not to mention GNU/Linux is Free and OS/2 isn't.
Nathan's blog
Oh wait. I thought that read a different kind of flame.
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
The Object REXX that ships standard with Warp 4. :-)
(Warp 4 has two different REXX subsystems).
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
There REXX in Debian and dosbox for Dos programs.
Linux multitasking has:Hard-drive overload may slow you down sometimes, but guys are taking great strides with the 2.6 I/O schedulers and capability to switch off the swap.
IBM knows what it does....when the DOT's OS/2 Warp server crashed, delaying me from getting my license for 45 minutes, would the rock solid kernel have been better than a windows server?
Better yet, if it were a windows server, would I now have my license at all or still be waiting thses years later?
Karma: Good, or bust!
If it weren't for IP issues, it might be opened up, but even the exploration of those issues is an extremely expensive undertaking (there are lots of licensed technologies on an OS/2 system, and not just older stuff like HPFS from Microsoft).
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Besides, it was .PCX files grabbed from Exec-PC via Procomm or Telemate and viewed in either Optix or Graphics Workshop at 640x480x16, or maybe 320x200x256. CIS was too spendy even for 2400bps usage -- I had to use things like GENie (via Aladdin) or Delphi. :-)
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
You want to see OS/2 in action? If you have a 3494 in the data center, take a look at that. They still run OS/2.
OS2 is running the voicemail on my PBX and I'm thinking of killing myself because of it. (...but there's no rush)
Crunch!
> Ever wondered what happened to OS/2?
no.
next!
It's worth noting as a minor nitpick that it's not actually AppleScript itself that's tied to the OS, but rather the Open Scripting Architecture, which is basically akin to the Amiga's "ARexx Ports" approach -- any language that can be built to talk with OSA can be used instead of AppleScript. There aren't many other OSA languages -- Frontier and JavaScript are the two most well-known ones -- but there's nothing intrinsic to AppleScript to prevent more from being developed. (Philip Aker has produced "OSAComponents," which claim to make Ruby, Python, Perl, PHP and Tcl/Tk "peer-level" scripting languages in the system, but I haven't tried them.)
Also, even non-OSA languages can use the "osascript" utility to execute an OSA script. I find AppleScript profoundly annoying, but it's not that difficult to write, say, a Ruby or an Expect script which does all of the heavy lifting in its native tongue and passes just what it has to via AppleScript.
Been there, done that. Never again. I now use software that I am 100% certain will last forever. Linux may not be as fast as Amiga OS and KDE may not be as "nifty" as WPS (although it's actually getting pretty decent), but at least I don't have to worry about the future. Even the Microsofties aren't this safe.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
While GNU/Linux may "suffer" from not having a scripting language tied to everything in it, it benefits from the flexibility of having all languages be on equal footing and having to compete on features rather than favored language status.
Instead of one language being tied to the OS, the OS is tied to the idea that many languages will access its features. I have trouble seeing why some think this is a bad thing. Maybe it's because I'm too busy getting work done, instead of trying to prop up my not-quite-dead-but-coughing-up-blood-this-morning OS.
It's also a floor wax *and* a dessert topping. :D
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of SMART?
A lot of OS/2 geeks got their first woody, viewing interleaved GIF 87 files,...
Actually what gave me my first OS/2 woody was when I showed it off by simultaneously formatting 2 floppies and 1 HD while downloading via 2 ftp sessions and having 4 telnet sessions up. This was on a 486-33 and in the days of Windows 3.1 when alt-tabbing to a dos window and back without crashing was a considered a miracle.
Ahh sweet, sweet nostalgia.
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everybody agrees that it is old enough to know better." - Unknown
I found the post "Keep OS/2 Alive". It has been an ongoing debate for a long while in the REXXLA group. It is the same heated debate that got the only person I've ever witnessed banned from a internet group. He said things along the lines of "IBM was traiterous to the nation, its employees, and shareholders for bailing out of the Microsoft battle." His main arguments were REXX and OS2 must have been really good, because for just one thing, MS worked hard behind the scenes and its back offices to see that REXX/OS2 never saw the light of day. They knew there is no better language, and they knew that the first and best moves ever made with Windows, came from the OS2 mindset which they stole, and messed up for years until they finally got it right. That being said, many of the commenters were like me, and took their time investments elsewhere once we realized IBM was too lilly livered to muster the resources for a fight. Many believe, me included, that IBM CEO's were bought off. That's where the arguments get really heated. In my opinion, that was not the only software fight that IBM through in the towel on. I was there when they through in the towel on Artificial Intelligence and Voice Systems too. I recall the time when there was a vision for OS/2 based technology that garnered a space age future - R2D2 kind of stuff. Finally, many believe that because MS is so big and it is vulnerable to monopolistic scrutiny now (it was not on the radar back then), now is the time for IBM, and others to start the attack. The feeling there is that the original MS could get away with dirty tricks, but the new and improved can't, and now real competition is possible.
Back in the day... I loved using OS/2 when I was making DOS games. I could run multiple copies of my App in their own protected spaces. If one hard-crashed, I just had to close the window. It's much nicer than havint to reboot all the time. I could even open up multiple Novell sessions from the same machine and debug multi-player apps on the same machine. I still can't do the same in XP. Even the games it came with were a better than Windows today.
too spendy even for 2400bps usage
When I was on CompuServ it was MUCH MORE expensive for 2400 bps usage. There were two modem pools to dial into CompuServ on. The 300 baud modems were $6 an hour and the 2400 baud modems were $12 an hour.
Oh, sure, IBM says OS/2 will run on 2 MB of RAM, but you won't get decent performance unless you spring for 4 MB. And if you want it to fly with graphical apps, be ready to empty your bank account for a 486 with a full 8 megs!
The natural home is z/VM where it was orignally developed. It was then ported to all other of IBM's OS's.
The commercial success of an OS has little to do with its technical excellence, or lack thereof. Discounting Unix (always a good bet in the commercial world) I'd rate OS/2 as the most capable consumer OS at the time of the release of OS/2 version 3. Its failure to achieve a comparable niche in the market is more a testament to IBM's inept marketing at the time and Microsoft's better advertising and, crucially, the fact the every PC except some of IBM's already had Windows installed on it. It is a fact that people who are getting the job done on their machine's default OS won't be inclined to spend money or time to try out something different. Trying to sell a replacement OS to people who are barely aware of the fact that they already own one is a daunting task.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
No, it doesn't. You'd struggle to find a single way they're similar.
API compatibility != kernel similarities.
Hmm, highly insightful, I hadn't thought of that! Being not attached to the OS allows you to easily migrate programs (scripts in this case) over to a new OS if and when the occasion arises. I guess I had just forgotten that feature as I figure that Linux will bee the last OS (cue "The Last Starfighter" theme).
Nathan's blog
I loved my home OS/2 desktop years from '95 into '01 but...
a 'rock solid kernel,' 'excellent multitasking,'
So, when you are streaming an mp3 station and you initiate a system sound, the sound system doesn't throw a zombie thread in the conflict and lock the desktop anymore?
And, to be honest, in retrospect some memories of OS/2 installation and configuration make me shudder even compared to linux.
But the desktop was beautiful. And perhaps because it was like your father's Caddie pimped out with the heated leather seats, the people seemed to reflect a more mature attitude than the frequent "RTFM Newbie" tone among the limux pack.
It makes an amazing web scripting language - especially since you can have globally shared modules (sorta like DLLs) that are loaded in REXX MacroSpace (REXX's special memory space for them), shared variables and memory spaces across different REXX processes, threads and apps (as well as of course private vars and memory spaces). REXX also is a non-typed langauge... ie:
MyVar.1=1
MyVar.2="Hi"
MyVar.3= (some hex value)
is all valid as well as doing math functions (to any user settable precision) on MyVar.1 and then later reassigning MyVar.1 like this
MyVar.1=MyVar.1 || " some string"
(ie: MyVar.1 now is "1 some string" )
You can of course at any time check the assumed data type of a variable to ensure you aren't trying to add a string to a number, etc.
Also, under OS/2 REXX vars are limited only by OS/2's memory REXX space limits (2GB var length).
Its text parsing and handling routines are amazing, it can be compiled to NetREXX (Java like), C, an exe, a DLL or just ran and interpreted.
It can call other EXEs, functions in DLLs, other REXX scripts, functions in REXX scripts, virtually any OS/2 subsystem, the entire OS/2 multimedia, networking, socket and TCP/IP subsystems, any other script and/or call many OS/2 apps, control virtually any OS/2 app (from user IO to app IO and much more - even if the app isnt REXX enabled), any MacroSpace function, itself, Perl scripts, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc... and the list of add-on DLLs for REXX is enormous - covering the entire gamut of app and server functionality.
Nothing else I've tried compares or is as easy.
- Rob
StarTrekPhase2 - The Five Year Mission Continues!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
What a load of bullshit. Presentation Manager (PM) was developed ENTIRELY by IBM, that was their piece of the OS. It was MS that developed the kernel and the DOS emulation subsystem, and they jointly hold the copyright on all of it. It was the MS lead developers opinion of the lousy design of PM and IBM's culture of code by committee that lead to the bad blood towards the end joint-devopment of the OS/2 cycle, and ultimately helped MS decide to dump OS/2 and migrate toward Win32 instead.
How do I know this? Because I taught people how to write drivers for OS/2 1.0. I was a first hand witness to the split with MS from inside the company, and I know for certain that PM was written by IBM.
I couldn't tell you whose responsible for the decision to have a single input queue. But I do know that when MS wrote Win32, they made a point of having multiple async input queues, so I would strongly suspect that it was IBM that insisted on the broken design in PM. Also, since it was IBM that wrote the PM code, it would seem likely that they would have the final word on how it worked.
Try:
... tools as found with DOS, OS/2, Win9x, Windows-NT/2000/XP and Linux. ...
... Floppy Disk Tests · FRANCE CUSTOMER SERVICE · FromUNIX - UNIX to OS/2 text ...
l /ind.htm
DFSee disktool, fdisk, filesystems and data recovery
Homepage of the famous multiplatform disk tool DFSee, for disk related problems,
http://www.dfsee.com/dfsee.htm
OR
The Graham Utilities for OS/2 - Version 2 Index
DiskEdit - Disk Editor · DiskImg - Disk Imaging Tool · DS - Dir Sort
http://www.warpspeed.com.au/Products/OS2/GU/Manua
Matthew
As several posters have pointed out you can use XCOPY /H/O/T/S/E/R/V <bootdriveletter>: <newdiskdriveletter>: to copy the install, roughly anyway. You can also use sysintx to set the disk as bootable if necessary. However if you make use of OS/2's PMShell/WPS you will have problems, you will lose your desktop for one. A patch for this is to add a "DESKTOP=<BOOTDRIVELETTER>:" line to the config.sys file just above where the PMShell is loaded.
.ini files so you will still have some problems with apps that need to know it. There are several apps like Object Desktop, Deskman/2 and several REXX scripts that will restore the WPSID but you may still lose some other WPS objects, that may not restore from the builtin "desktop archive/restore" utility. To defeat all these problems you can zip the entire drive, to the new disk, then unzip it on the new disk. There are several utilitys availiable for this, a neat little utility I have used for this is:
e OS2.html
However simply relating the desktop location will not restore its WPSID in the system or user
DreckBak Backup utility for OS/2
http://weismer.virtualave.net/DreckBak.html
This way you can restore all the WPS objects.
Better yet use DFSee or Graham to create a sector by sector clone of the drive.
Note I have found that it is best to use OS/2 FDISK program to create the partitions on the disk if you expect OS/2 to see them properly, though DFSee did ok for me in this regard for at least once. Also the OS/2 FORMAT utility should be prefered for either EFAT or HPFS formatting work. Once you get your new disk booted you should apply the latest fixpak for your version. I believe is is at 43 for Warp3 and at 15 for Warp4.
Fixpaks and other OS/2 free and shareware software can be found here.
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/
OR comerical offerings, includung fixpaks on CD, and shareware
http://www.bmtmicro.com/BMTCatalog/BMTCat_Softwar
Matthew
I think you could truly call OS/2 part of the infancy of the internet.. assuming now you've of a school that says the internet is out of its infancy. Otherwise you could call it a good start.
..
My first (ever) computer was a Tandy TRS 80 with a whopping 2k of RAM. Then off to Commodore land for a while.. then I finally brought myself to the PC (Clone market - as it was called at the time).
Our "clone pc's" usually had only 4 MB of RAM, and DOS took up quite a chunk of the env / dev space available. For most of us we just could not run 2 things at once even with windows 3.1 (all 11 5 1/4 disks it took to install it too! and 4 hours!) because of memory limitations. SIMM's were about $100 per meg back then. Ouch!
OS/2 let me really start to play with what a computer could do. My only other access to a multi processing setup was at work where we had a RISC machine and vax cluster.
I think IBM hit a "good" nerve in all of us who actually helped to build the internet into what it is today by keeping os/2 going.
Moreover, I think thanks should go to those who kept all of the old "treasures" going. All of the avid newsgroup posters, the hobbyist communities, etc. So if the folks at IBM are reading
Thanks for saving part of (my) internet that I helped to build. With all of the politics surrounding the Internet at large now, I was feeling kind of down wondering if we all did the right thing by pushing it as fast as we did.
Now , OS/2 has nothing really to do with that. But it does say a big company like IBM remembers I still exist and helped them get big the last 15 years by learning and recommending their products.
THIS DOES NOT MEAN MICROSOFT SHOULD BRING BACK "bob"
An Amiga REXX worked similar to KDE's DCOP. Most big applications had an ARexx port which you could send commands to from an ARexx script. That way you could remote control applications. For instance I once created a gif anim creation tool by simply tying an image viewer which worked as a batch image conversion tool to a gif command line application using ARexx as glue. It made it unnecessary to implement scripting in any application. Just expose the functionallity through the ARexx port, and users can do whatever they like with it.
(Please disregard my previous badly formatted reply.. thanks..)
On Amiga REXX worked similar to KDE's DCOP. Most big applications had an ARexx port which you could send commands to from an ARexx script. That way you could remote control applications.
For instance I once created a gif anim creation tool by simply tying an image viewer which worked as a batch image conversion tool to a gif command line application using ARexx as glue.
It made it unnecessary to implement scripting in any application. Just expose the functionallity through the ARexx port, and users can do whatever they like with it.
Why would I want half an OS? I already have enough trouble with a full one :-)
Back around December of 1993, I had an IBM PS/2 model 30-286 (10 MHz 286) that I converted to a real 486 DX-2 66 MHz via a complete motherboard upgrade from a now long-defunct company called Reply Corporation, in San Jose, CA. I ordered 16 MB of 70 ns RAM (2x8 MB SIMMS), and a very quick (for the time) 340 MB Western Digital IDE hard drive. The system "planar" (IBM-speak for motherboard) also had 1 MB of very quick video on the VESA local bus (I think it was the Cirrus Logic CL-GD5428). All of this, stuffed into the little PS/2 "slimline" desktop formfactor case. The ultimate sleeper PS/2 (it gets even better). Then I got OS/2 2.1 in January of 1994 (CompUSA, as I recall) and what an eye-opener that was. It was my first, really big, massive 32-bit home computing experience. I felt like I had a full-blown IBM 3083 mainframe at my disposal. Then, when the AMD 5x86 133 MHz chip came out, I stuffed one of those in there, and with OS/2 2.1, I truly had mission-critical, industrial-grade, serious computing on my desktop. It *did* take some doing to get the video drivers so I could run in all video modes (including 24-bit "TruColor"), but I got them, and it was a terrific system. I had some of my geeky NASA and NSA pals come over, and even they were impressed by the hoops this little OS/2 sleeper pizza box could jump through. I loved ZocComm and JoeView, and I had a blast with REXX, too. Those were the days...
My argument is not invalid, you are just misinterpreting it. The original poster was claiming that one: OS/2 is insecure because most software written at the same time was insecure; two: OS/2 has a lot of undiscovered vulnerabilities because it is not widely adopted. I was debunking the second claim by stating an example to the contrary to demonstrate that you cannot assume OS/2 is vulnerable because it is not ubiquitous. Never once did I extrapolate that single data point regarding Apache versus IIS to the general case.
Join Tor today!
brandtc@sword:~$ apt-cache search rexx
crashmail - JAM and *.MSG capable Fidonet tosser
exuberant-ctags - multi-language reimplementation of ctags
regina-rexx - The Regina REXX interpreter.
regina2 - The Regina REXX interpreter, run-time library.
regina2-dev - The Regina REXX interpreter, development files.
rexxtk - Interface to Tcl/Tk for Regina REXX
rxsock - Socket function library for Regina REXX
And btw, REXX was best integrated into AmigaOS and not into OS/2. You could for example syncronize Processes, use it for interprocess-communication and the best of all, it was the absolute standard for everything. Nearly all Software features a REXX-port which made the Amiga the ultimate OS for "use several small and nifty pieces to make something really great".
"Life is short and in most cases it ends with death." Sir Sinclair
That's why Delphi's eventual 20/20 plan ($20/month for 20 hours of time) was so cool -- it let folks like me do most of what we wanted to do for $20/month. The fact that I used a script to harvest various Delphi forums and then convert them to QWK so I could read them offline helped reduce the expenses a lot, too. :-)
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.