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Hiring Is Up in Silicon Valley for High-Skill Jobs

Carl Bialik writes to tell us the Wall Street Journal is reporting that five years after the dot-com burst, job growth is finally returning to Silicon Valley. From the article: "Doug Henton, an economist and co-author of the report, says with the growth in these creative engineering jobs, a new face of Silicon Valley is emerging. 'Ten years ago, this was an engineering Valley that pumped out chips and computers,' he says. 'Now it's all about creative tech and staying on the cutting edge.'"

208 comments

  1. First Post? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Maybe....Maybe Not

    1. Re:First Post? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Insightful???????

    2. Re:First Post? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Absolutely, I know I was...um incited?

    3. Re:First Post? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, there was deep insight, in a Zen sorta way...

  2. Silicon Valley, first hand by otisg · · Score: 1

    I'm in San Francisco right now, and can vouch for that. When was the last time you heard the word recesion? When was the last time you heard it mentioned in the same sentence as the U.S. economy? People are very positive, there are a lot of new ideas, new startups, and money to fund them. Sure, most of them will fail, but that is how it's meant to be.

    --
    Simpy
    1. Re:Silicon Valley, first hand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      San Francisco != Silicon Valley

      Head about an hour south, dude.

      As for the recession, you're clearly not reading financial news. There are tons of articles on the "interest rate inversion" and rising gold prices -- both very strong indicators of a coming recession. Add all the energy uncertainty & it's looking tenuous. Silicon Valley, or even San Francisco, won't be spared in a national recession. So, I hope you're not one of those fools with an interest-only mortgage, expecting everything to continue spiraling up.

    2. Re:Silicon Valley, first hand by bheer · · Score: 1

      > People are very positive, there are a lot of new ideas, new startups

      Yeah, but how many of them are Web 2.0 shops that aim to reimplement everything from photo sharing to to-do lists, but with tags and social networks? :-)

      I kid, I kid!

    3. Re:Silicon Valley, first hand by Aqua+OS+X · · Score: 1

      He didn't say SF -was- in Silicon valley. Those of us who work in the tech industry in SF tend to frequently associate with the south bay.

      --
      "Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
    4. Re:Silicon Valley, first hand by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 1

      re:"So, I hope you're not one of those fools with an interest-only mortgage, expecting everything to continue spiraling up."

      Yeah I know - during the last tech collapse homes in the Bay Area got so darn cheap it was crazy!

      Crazy I tells ya! Craaaazy cheap! Crazy crazy crazy. Yep. It's just like the rest of the country's housing market. Just crazy cheap.

    5. Re:Silicon Valley, first hand by Fred_A · · Score: 2, Funny

      I don't think I've ever heard the word "recesion"...

      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    6. Re:Silicon Valley, first hand by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I hear the word recession every night on the financial programs I listen to.
      The yield curve is not looking that great and historically we always have a recession soon after the fed stops raising rates.

      The longer term forecasts are for a sharp short recession in late 2006 to mid 2007 then 2 good years, then a very harsh longer recession from 2010 to 2011.

      Supposed to be okay after that.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    7. Re:Silicon Valley, first hand by Liam+Slider · · Score: 1

      I hear the word "recession" now and then from certain politicians and news media complaining about the economy. But that's just their jobs. politicians want you to think the economy is bad so they can trot out their favorite pet economics program and screw everything straight to hell, and the news media...well...all economic news is bad news because good news doesn't get ratings.

    8. Re:Silicon Valley, first hand by Uber+Banker · · Score: 1

      There are tons of articles on the "interest rate inversion"...

      Oh come on. If you're talking 2s to 10s, its around 10 basis points which is basically nothing, mainly caused by institutional pension funds still re-allocating from equities to bonds since the end of millenium stock market bubble. Inversion could be a worry, but right now the curve is quite flat. If you lament at the state of tech journalism, spare a moment to consider financial journalism, "the yield curve is flat - all sleep easy" is quite different to "the yield curve is invested - coming recession", and which sells more papers/page views?

      More worrying is the present low level of volatility (it can really only go up) and the low level of absolute yields (but the vast majority of the US is on fixed-rate mortgages). But shocks are unpredictable, so that's why they're called shocks, and that's why people should always be prudent.

    9. Re:Silicon Valley, first hand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The last time I heard anything negative about the economy in a major way was from John Kerry while trying to win an election. So I guess he was pretty wrong. You still hear bits and pieces of "how horrible our sluggish economy is" from democratic senators but even the liberal media has a hard time reporting that its bad these days.

    10. Re:Silicon Valley, first hand by Uber+Banker · · Score: 1

      The yield curve is not looking that great and historically we always have a recession soon after the fed stops raising rates.

      Depends from your prespective. At the moment interest rates are low, as are credit spreads. Which means its a great time for companies to issue debt - lots of money for low interest costs (which are fixed p.a. to the issuer remember). So if I was a startup I'd now be visiting brokers and banks to luck in on this funding.

      And the Fed stops raising rates because, er, they have no reason to because they expect a recession. Inflationary pressures receed in a recession (less economic activity relative to capacity) and the Fed has another interest rate objective of trying for maximum employment levels.

      The longer term forecasts are for a sharp short recession in late 2006 to mid 2007 then 2 good years, then a very harsh longer recession from 2010 to 2011.

      Ah, financial alchemy. A recession is two consecutive declines in GDP - people, on average, get poorer over a 6 month period, only the maddest hatter is predicting that for the 2006/7 period. That is quite different from a slowdown in growth. Now I don't think even 2011 is long term, but, Concesus Forecasts are the leading sources of forecasts. They don't actually forecast anything, rather every month they telephone/email economists and financial professionals from each major financial institution (think investment banks, brokerages, private sector economist shops), around 50 in total, and publish what each institution thought as well as various averages. While a marked slowdown in growth is expected, certainty of a recession is far from clear.

    11. Re:Silicon Valley, first hand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's true, I was surprised that housing prices didn't back off after the collapse. Instead, they became the next bubble. But, you're probably right, this bubble will just continue growing forever and everyone will get fantastically rich!! Just like Qualcomm stock was going to $1000/sh; despite the fact that they would need to sell more cell phones than there are humans to justify that price. Aren't bubbles great?

      To maintain a market, you need to have buyers. Fortune magazine said that 80% of mortgages in the bay area over the last two years were interest only. That tells me that these people really can't afford those million dollar mortgages. How much higher does it have to go up until people can't even afford the interest payments on the mortgage?

      Then, factoring in external events, like a national recession, and those people will be hurting. Hopefully that interest-only mortgage is fixed-rate.. Otherwise with the recession, and increased interest rates, that interest payment is going to get much bigger.

      The housing prices don't need to collapse to be a problem for these people. Just back the prices off 10 or 15% (which still keeps them outrageously high compared to every other area of the country, a recession would result in a larger drop) and now those interest payments keep coming, while not eating into the principal at all. So, you can either keep treading water, or sell the house at a loss.

    12. Re:Silicon Valley, first hand by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 1

      The housing bubble is real - don't get me wrong on that - but I'm not certain the Bay Area market is going to back down any more than, say, Manhatten. Given the general growth further eastward and northward, I'd say the penisula and the city are pretty much built out with the exception of some high-priced projects that I'm watching spring up in the city.

      If the housing bubble cools in the rest of the country (and given the last 15 years of data - I'm not certain how much "cooling" we'll ever see unless interest rates climb to unheard of levels) I'm fairly certain the Bay Area - like NYC won't see nearly as much of an impact.

      Now Los Angeles, and other over-hot markets? Sure. I think SF is following London, Tokyo, and other areas footsteps. If the last deep recessions couldn't topple housing prices in the Bay Area - what's going to do it appart from some bad-loan foreclosures? I haven't seen any HUD sales in the SF region so I think the dreams of a melt-down went when the dot-com 1.0 bubble burst - and nothing happened.

      But that's just observational thoery - perhaps a good strong earthquake will push things down like post 1989. But that also was a very short dip.

      One other footnote - aside from the massive build-up in the pennisula in the last 30 years, SF has never had as much housing as it did around 1948. The urban renewel programs that plowed under affordable housing by the truck-load in the late 60s and early 70s removed a large swath of housing options in SF. The funny thing is, the population of SF is about the same as it was at it's height during WWII and shortly afterwards. If the population continues to grow (a not too unwarrented expectation with dotcom 2.0 in full swing), I don't see the supply-demand problem going away anytime soon - nor the prices that go with it.

    13. Re:Silicon Valley, first hand by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      San Francisco's problem is overregulation. Rent control and extreme building restrictions does not exactly give someone an incentive to build new housing. As long as it is prohibitive to build new housing, supply will remain scarce and demand, along with prices, will stay high. Basic Econ 101.

    14. Re:Silicon Valley, first hand by rikkitikki · · Score: 1

      I heard it this morning on KCBS on my way into work. It was from some guy pushing to raise the sales tax in Santa Clara county to 8.75% (matching Alameda County for the highest sales tax in the state) because of the _current_ "recession and downturn in the economy". It's supposed to be voted on before May or something.

    15. Re:Silicon Valley, first hand by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 1

      NYC has rent control too. But with 9 million people expected in 6 years, I don't think a few rent-squatters is the problem. Just a part of it. But yes the regulatory hoops is nuts. I've got a project literally across the street from me that is - once again - on hiatus as they more than likely are in a wait period from all the red-tape that goes with redeveloping a "historic" property. It's so historic it looks like something from Berlin circa April of 1945. A historic rubble pile at the moment.

      But consider this - I live in Emeryville - which less than 10 years ago was filled with blocks of buildings that were essentially condemmed blight. Now from the latest reports from City Hall, we're nearly built out. That build-out happened in the middle of the melt-down. The last remaining loft projects - of which there are no fewer than 4 which are less than a year old - on my block are filling fast.

      And we don't have rent-control either.

      Just across the boundary line (Emeryvlle is a scant 1.2 miles large) in Oakland the last crack houses have been vacated because the property owners are flipping shacks for more than half a million. Kansas City we're not.

    16. Re:Silicon Valley, first hand by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      (and given the last 15 years of data - I'm not certain how much "cooling" we'll ever see unless interest rates climb to unheard of levels)

      Given the last 30 years of import/export data, any bank not in the United States lending to the United States better be earning 500-600% annual interest if they expect to break even. We've got an awfull credit history as a country, and the housing market is just the latest example of that.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    17. Re:Silicon Valley, first hand by georgewad · · Score: 1

      You might be trolling, but I'll bite. I rented in SF for all of the 90s and watched rents skyrocket when rent control was eroded in 1993. This was just after the weakening of building code for 'lofts' for 'artists' which ended up being 'condos' for 'dot.com millionaires'.
      The scacity of housing in SF is mostly due to the fact that it's only a 49sq mi chunk of very desirable land. Overregulation may be a problem, but it's certainly not the biggest one.

      --
      Karma: It's not just a good idea. It's the law.
    18. Re:Silicon Valley, first hand by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Not going to argue since I can't link private investment newsletters.

      But several that I get (which are not the sky is falling lunatics) are forecasting recessions.

      That recessions happen historically soon after rates stop rising is just a fact they state- I haven't done the personal research. They speculate that it is because the Fed always raises rates just a little too much and actually causes the recession as a result.

      The longer term dates I mention are part of an 11 year cycle (tho the 2006-7 lays over one of the minor humps in the cycle) that another person has been pushing for quite a few years and it's matching up fairly well so far.

      Correct.. incorrect? I don't know.

      But the parent post said no one was talking about recessions- all I'm saying is several financial newsletters I follow are talking about them based on the fact that the current expansion is now over 3 years old without a recession. Nothing goes up forever.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  3. WOOT by ookabooka · · Score: 1

    Yay, would this mean outsourcing is going down, or that the industry is growing? Also, does this mean that it's actually worth it for me to continue my education and get a degree in Computer Engineering?

    If you think it's worth it, you've never tried CS1721. . . intro to commenting

    --
    If you are about to mod me down, keep in mind that this post was most likely sarcastic.
    1. Re:WOOT by B3ryllium · · Score: 1

      No, you'd make more money as a pharmacist. Or an optometrist. Ancillary industries are where the real money is :)

    2. Re:WOOT by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

      No, read the article. Basically Silicon Valley is growing, but it is becoming much more "top heavy" as it were; they are hiring very skilled engineers and creative types while outsourcing the grunt work for the most part to India. Of courese this has long term implications, but thats another story.

    3. Re:WOOT by MrAnnoyanceToYou · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you love computer programming, there will generally be a job for you somewhere because you will be decently good at it. (at the least) If you are in it for the money, the games, or the chicks, go get an accounting degree. Programming is more of a calling / obsession than a skill, and I wish I had it. Those with the calling are often extremely valuable and sought after... It just takes a while. If you love what you are studying and love to code and love to build, keep it up. If you just want the money, well, get a finance degree...

      And remember, your degree will always be worth more than a philosophy degree. Meditate upon that for a few minutes then go do something useful, like all non-liberal arts majors do.

    4. Re:WOOT by Fred_A · · Score: 1

      You probably want to also get a spare degree in outsoursing consulting, just in case. That will stay useful for quite some time.

      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    5. Re:WOOT by elucido · · Score: 1



      Seems you hate the liberal arts, but without philosophy degrees you wouldnt have laws, lawyers, and long term planning. Ultimately you need liberals arts even if just to write all the books and interpret all the laws.

      Math can teach you how the world works but without understanding why, then the world still wont make sense.

    6. Re:WOOT by mikael · · Score: 1

      In the UK, Management Consultancy, accounting and becoming a personal trainer are now the two most popular career paths for the most qualified students.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    7. Re:WOOT by qwijibo · · Score: 1

      So if we get rid of liberal arts, we can live in a world without lawyers? I never knew paradise was so easy to achieve. =)

      Math has the benefit of being consistent. The why may be more elusive sometimes, but at least the what is pretty solid. If there are 2 pinecones on one side of a tree and 2 on the other side, there are 4 pinecones on the tree. That's as close as we humans get to absolute truth. Most of math is an expression of something that independent of the observer.

      Contrast that with law as a field. Laws are written by one group based on a set of opinions or agendas (rather than a scientifically verifiable process) and interpreted by others with other opinions or agendas. Laws are not a part of nature, they are constructs by humans for humans. Many laws are passed to address perceptions of the cause of a problem and a perception of a solution. This doesn't really come much closer to answering the why question that you cited as a flaw with math.

    8. Re:WOOT by fanduboy · · Score: 1

      In fact, oursourcing is at an all time high. For all the nay-sayers of outsourcing, here is a great proof that you can actually benefit from it. A lot of companies hiring now are doing so because of financial strength gained by saving development costs by outsourcing. Of course, companies are not hiring people with skills they can get in India, they are hiring for talent, and if you are good, you will be taken...

    9. Re:WOOT by MrAnnoyanceToYou · · Score: 1

      I have a philosophy degree, and I'm an insensitive clod.

    10. Re:WOOT by Pollardito · · Score: 1

      it gets harder! CS404: Intro to Slashdotting a Server and CS500: Slashdotting for Advanced Users are really ruthless courses and the professor, BeatlesBeatles, refuses to grade on a curve

    11. Re:WOOT by elucido · · Score: 1



      There is a logical math behind laws. Laws exist in math too. Point is, language must define all laws including math laws.

    12. Re:WOOT by dalroth5 · · Score: 1
      You said,

      "If you love computer programming, there will generally be a job for you somewhere because you will be decently good at it."

      No. That is a warm, comfortable and entirely false assumption.

      Take it from me, there will _not_ always be a job for you, no matter how good you are at what you do, and no matter how ready, willing and able you are to learn the latest New Thing. The reason is simple but comes in several parts:

      1. You, like everybody, have an expectation that you will be paid more next year than you were paid this year. This is taken as read by everybody in the western world; but it's always been unrealistic. As a consumer, will you pay more for something next year just because another year has passed? No, and neither will employers.

      2. As your hourly rate rises, more and more other people enter the realm of being Cheaper Than You. This has always been the case, but nowadays you're going to be competing against the Third World, where _everybody_ is cheaper than you have _ever_ been.

      3. When we were young, we despised older people because they were...older. Everyone does.

      4. You're getting older. Surprise, surprise.

      One day, the rising line representing your age and cost will intersect the line representing the value of the job and that will be that, for you. Personally, it happened when I passed forty; but anyone presently under thirty will probably see the intersection earlier; twenty-somethings earlier still, and so on. It is a _very_ sharp cutoff: I went from always being offered an interview and always getting the job (this is completely true), to never being offered a single interview, nor even a reply to applications: not a single one. And though we Brits see it as bad taste to blow our own trumpets, yes, I really AM that good.

      IOW, since nobody now believes that experience actually counts for anything, your ONE selling point will no longer have value. You will be made redundant, along with your peers at the company. If necessary to achieve this, the company will make _everybody_ redundant, and then re-hire the younger _CHEAPER_ ones. Labour laws won't protect you.

      So, what's the future? Well, since a CS degree will not qualify you to drive a forklift or operate a packing machine, NMW is all that will be left. Yes, you can retrain--if you can afford the fees. Maybe you'll get a loan to cover it. But stacked up against younger peole with the same qual, you still won't get the job...and then you'll have the career development loan (or whatever they call it in your country) to repay as well.

      In my humble but outspoken opinion, you have a few choices:

      (a) Save every single penny you earn, right from job one day one, then retire at thiry or thirty five (when they make you). You probably won't do this because it would mean no fun right now.

      (b) Start a business of your own as soon as you can and make it successful. The first part is damned hard, the second part a lot harder.

      (c) Stick your head back into the sand. If you do this, be ready to swallow a lot of sand. It will prepare you for spending the rest of your life on humble pie.

      As it happens, becoming unemployable in IT actually improved the quality of my life: no more endless, endless meetings about nothing, going nowhere, listening to buffoons rabbiting on about the latest marketing bullshit; no more unrealistic deadlines ("Hey Charlie, we just want you to implement the world...but by tomorrow please"), no more being expected to give up a family or anything resembling a normal life for the sake of the company, no more pointless, petty political intrigues, and best of all, no more software which I slaved over to make the best possible, only to be told--time without number--that it wasn't going to be rolled out because the company had made a business decision. Programmers HATE that.

      No, nowadays I'm unemployed (in the UK that equates to £54 a week: about $95), and can therefore take as long as I like to understand a new techn

      --
      "We reject kings, presidents and voting. We believe in rough consensus and running code." Dave Clark, IETF
    13. Re:WOOT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My plan (I'm 27 now) is to make money working as a software developer (or whatever job I can get with my experience), save as much of it as I can (e.g. I live with my parents). I'm using some of the money that I save for investments. Eventually I'll get into the situation where I'm unemployed and having trouble finding a job. At that point, I'll either spend more time focusing on investments or start my own company (or a combination of the two).

    14. Re:WOOT by Fred_A · · Score: 1

      Wow, this sounds so exciting.

      When the most qualified people voluntarily pick accounting, it probably means our civilization has failed.

      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    15. Re:WOOT by mikael · · Score: 1

      It's mainly because the City (London's Financial Centre) offers the highest starting salaries for graduates. Outside of London, being an accountant is considered a good career move because the number of course places available each year is regulated by the professional body.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    16. Re:WOOT by novus+ordo · · Score: 1

      Here's a stinker...what defines language?

      --
      "You're everywhere. You're omnivorous."
    17. Re:WOOT by novus+ordo · · Score: 1

      you think therefore you are..

      --
      "You're everywhere. You're omnivorous."
  4. Hiring Up! Hiring Down! by B3ryllium · · Score: 2, Insightful

    People will never learn :) Everything goes in cycles, from real estate to employment to global warming.

    "What Goes Around Comes Around", indeed.

    1. Re:Hiring Up! Hiring Down! by revscat · · Score: 1
      Where'd the water on Mars go?

      The belief that there is some eternal equilibrium that will never shift one way or the other is simply asinine. Cycles exist, yes, but past results are no indicator of future success, as they say. If you change fundamental variables then the cycle will cease repeating itself.

    2. Re:Hiring Up! Hiring Down! by devonbowen · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, many of the geologic cycles are measured in millions of years.

      Devon

  5. Hiring Up! Hiring Down!-Death and taxes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "People will never learn :) Everything goes in cycles, from real estate to employment to global warming."

    Unfortunately, death is a one way trip.

    1. Re:Hiring Up! Hiring Down!-Death and taxes. by B3ryllium · · Score: 2, Funny

      You're going to be reincarnated as a slashdot editor, I can tell.

    2. Re:Hiring Up! Hiring Down!-Death and taxes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, let me guess; you are a republican who will be reborn as a liberal?

  6. Yes, for High-Skilled Experienced Workers by bigsexyjoe · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The market has never been that bad for people with plenty of experience. Our recovery isn't providing jobs for the entry-level people who have been having trouble getting in. Therefore, if you ask should I major in CS or whatever for good job opportunities, the answer is still no. When there are more experienced people in India, I suppose most of those jobs will go over, too.

    1. Re:Yes, for High-Skilled Experienced Workers by guacamole · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Really? What other major do you suggest other than Business Administration? According to UC Berkeley's career center, CS grads are still some of the most employable majors with starting salaries comparable to EECS and actually higher than Bus.Adm and most of engineering varieties. In any case, I hope there will be around more people like you trying to convice the dumb "get rich fast" types that CS is not good for them. Then the CS departments will be a much better place to be in without them. All of my friends who are recent graduates not only in CS but also some other major + CS minor got decent jobs after at most a few months of job search.

    2. Re:Yes, for High-Skilled Experienced Workers by ErikZ · · Score: 1

      "According to UC Berkeley's career center, CS grads are still some of the most employable majors with starting salaries comparable to EECS and actually higher than Bus.Adm and most of engineering varieties."

      If they're getting info from their own grads, I wouldn't be surprised.

      I've heard Berkeley's a pretty good school and stuff.

      --
      Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
    3. Re:Yes, for High-Skilled Experienced Workers by corngrower · · Score: 1
      starting salaries comparable to EECS and actually higher than Bus.Adm ...


      Starting salaries, Yes. Salaries of the 'better than most' with 5 years of experience? No.


      Yes, the pay looks good right out of college, but five years out, your still
      a lot better off in business.

    4. Re:Yes, for High-Skilled Experienced Workers by caudron · · Score: 1

      if you ask should I major in CS or whatever for good job opportunities, the answer is still no.

      So, your solution to the perceived problem of us losing the edge on highly skilled tech workers is to concede that front entirely?

      Well, I could disagree all day about that point, but I'd rather point out that we are not losing the batle on the high tech worker front. I've linked to theis in the past, but I'll continue to until people get it. We are still the science and technology leaders by a HUGE margin and right now it doesn't look like we are going to lose that edge in the foreseable future.

      America is a good place to be if you are a scientist, regardless of what you may have heard to the contrary. So, if you want to major in CS or any other science, I say go for it!

      --
      -Tom
    5. Re:Yes, for High-Skilled Experienced Workers by typical · · Score: 1

      The market has never been that bad for people with plenty of experience.

      The market has never been that bad for people who know what they are doing. There exists a corrolation, but it is not absolute.

      --
      Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
    6. Re:Yes, for High-Skilled Experienced Workers by drew · · Score: 1

      Our recovery isn't providing jobs for the entry-level people who have been having trouble getting in.

      In my experience, reasonably talented entry level people have been having more luck than most people with 3-4 years of experience but no particularly marketable skill. The basic problem is that the software developer market got flooded with far too many people looking for a way to make a quick buck. It will probably take a few more years of hard to find jobs and college students listening to people like you to get all those people who were only in it for the quick buck to look somewhere else for work before things start to become reasonable again.

      The real problem is, if somebody is asking "Should I major in X for good job opportunities?" the answer is always no, no matter what X is. No one should ever pick a major just because the money is good.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    7. Re:Yes, for High-Skilled Experienced Workers by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Woot! It's CrazyJim1! Where you been, buddy!?

      I can't believe that people don't want to hire the genius that thought up putting rockets in the hilts of katanas and using them to fly around! Unbelievable. Kudos on predicting a multiplayer game with vehicles mere weeks before Starsiege Tribes was released.

    8. Re:Yes, for High-Skilled Experienced Workers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh for god's sake.

      Look at me for a second. I:

      * Went to a 4th tier (by U.S. News & World Reports standards) public university.
      * Wound up with < 2.75 overall GPA and CS dept. GPA when I received my BSCS.
      * Took a bunch of programming -- not "software engineering" (project & process flow), not "computer science" (algorithm & data structure theory and design), but programming (learning just another fucking language without any real theory) -- courses.
      * Got a job with a multinational corporation (which owns pretty much everything) doing software development in a manner that does not use 95% of what I learned in school. (In fact, I wasn't hired for what I learned in school either. Everything I've ever been hired for in IT has been for what I've taught myself.)
      * Receive a total compensation of around $55,000/year, around 10% of which are benefits and 401k contributions. This is in a state where $55k/year means a single person can live reasonably-well (I understand that this level will hardly rent you a cardboard box in California, but I don't live in that state).

      This is at an age below 25. Hardly a spectacular record and hardly a spectacular achievement.

      But to say that entry-level positions don't exist anymore is utterly wrong on the facts, at least for now. Maybe 10-20 years from now my job will have been offshored to India, China, or some land in Africa that hasn't even yet been wired for electricity; who knows? Such is the nature of a dynamic market economy.

      But whatever the unproveable predictions of the future may be, the predictions of the present-day that said there would be no -- or are not presently -- jobs for entry-level positions is flatly wrong on the facts, and I, along with 100 or more fresh-hires from college within the last couple years at our company, are living proof of this fact.

    9. Re:Yes, for High-Skilled Experienced Workers by Tablizer · · Score: 1


      Starting salaries, Yes. Salaries of the 'better than most' with 5 years of experience? No.

      Exactly. At least with the other majors mentioned the potential earning power is pretty wide and likely to keep going up. Tech stays relatively flat and older techies are discriminated against.

  7. San Francisco isn't the Valley by Yeechang+Lee · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I moved from NYC to the Palo Alto area in May 2000. That's right, just one month after the start of the long stock-market collapse and two months after the NASDAQ's peak, although of course no one knew these things at the time. I thus got to experience both the highs (insane traffic on 101, Sand Hill Road absolutely packed for two hours each afternoon) and the lows (significantly-better traffic on 101--admittedly a good thing in and of itself--and hordes of people losing jobs and moving back home each month).

    It's important to distinguish between San Francisco and Silicon Valley. The Valley has recovered--traffic on 101 has long since become awful again, as today reminded me--but San Francisco still hasn't regained the equivalent of all those bubble-related jobs that vanished into the wind in the 2001-2002 time period, and probably never will. (I've been living in San Francisco for going on two years now and have yet to meet anyone who is working in a "Web" or "e-commerce" job up here. It's like a neutron bomb; the people went away but the buildings stayed.) By contrast, yes, the Valley lost tons of jobs, too, but at least the Valley had, and has, a longtime core of companies that made real products that do real thing dating back to the Fairchild/HP/Intel days. And on the Web side, of course, Google and Yahoo! are leading the charge. They're down there, though, and not up here. Unless and until another bubble develops, I expect San Francisco will remain a remarkably tech jobs-free (but with plenty of finance, retail, and other non tech-related companies) city on the edge of the world's greatest concentration of tech jobs.

    1. Re:San Francisco isn't the Valley by mcrbids · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Interesting thoughts on what is, to me, perhaps the most beautiful city in the world, and always one of my very favorites.

      I find it amusing, though: I live in the Central Valley of California, small-town, USA. My job is largely performed from the recliner in my living room, cordless phone at my side, notebook warming my lap. I often joke that "my commute is only 10 feet long, but the traffic is a bitch, what with 5 kids and all". I make good money at it, but my primary hosting servers are in San Fransisco! Thus, I consider myself a "Web" worker, with strong ties to SF, yet I go there only to vacation. I've been to the hosting facility once in over 2 years. I've been to SF for recreation 5 or 6 times in that same timeframe.

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    2. Re:San Francisco isn't the Valley by HegemonXYZ · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'll agree with that. In fact, lots of people (myself included) live in San Francisco but work further down the Peninsula. I really can't point to any significant technological innovation going on in San Francisco right now - but it's still a great place to live.

    3. Re:San Francisco isn't the Valley by beowulfy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "I've been living in San Francisco for going on two years now and have yet to meet anyone who is working in a "Web" or "e-commerce" job up here."

      have you meet anyone? I work at a "web/e-commerce" job, and so do half the people I know here in SF. Your right about there being fewer jobs, but there's still a lot compared to most cities in the US.

      --
      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" -Hunter S. Thompson
    4. Re:San Francisco isn't the Valley by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 1

      re:"I've been living in San Francisco for going on two years now and have yet to meet anyone who is working in a "Web" or "e-commerce" job up here"

      Don't know what part of SF you're in - but in SOMA and Mission Bay you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a dot-commer or overhearing a dot-com conversation.

      Where are you - the Tenderloin? Seriously I think the new economy is ditching you. Cheese it - it's Yeechang! Everyone stop doing dot-com work!

      Check out Valleywag for a small indicator of SF tech businesses - and I can vouch that my contracting with start-ups indicates that this map is very much out of date:

      http://www.valleywag.com/tech/google-maps/index.ph p

    5. Re:San Francisco isn't the Valley by gnuLNX · · Score: 2, Informative

      You do of source realize that South San Fran is the biotech center of the universe right?

      --
      what?
    6. Re:San Francisco isn't the Valley by KaiserSoze · · Score: 1

      If we want to talk about traffic as an indicator of job growth, I can share a little anecdotal crap. I've been living in South San Jose and commuting up 85 to Mountain View for awhile now. Since the Google Hordes have grown, however, getting from 85 to Rengstorff Ave (Just One Exit Past Shoreline, which is where Googlers exit) has become a nightmare. We're talking, I used to make it in 20-30 minutes, and today I average 50-75 minutes. It's not a big deal, but I shake my fist at the Hordes with their one-exit-before-me and free lunch luxuries *grin*.

      Hey, when I decide it's time to move on from where I'm at, all the better for me, right?

      --

      "What we elect to call imagination is mere combination of things not heretofore combined." - Frank Norris

    7. Re:San Francisco isn't the Valley by engagebot · · Score: 1

      How about mine: I live in Baton Rouge, louisiana. After Katrina, the capitol city went from ~220,000 to 450,000. Literally double the population with ex-New Orleans residents overnight. The traffic was horrendous (worse than Houston where i came from) BEFORE the storm... Needless to say there are no jobs in Baton rouge.

      --
      Han shot first.
    8. Re:San Francisco isn't the Valley by slashddot · · Score: 1
      I'm not sure where you're getting your data but I suspect it isn't very accurate.

      Do a search on Dice for the 415 area code using the "Java" keyword and you'll find over 500 jobs just in San Francisco. Not exactly "remarkably tech jobs-free".

    9. Re:San Francisco isn't the Valley by NetFu · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and as any person who lives in South San Francisco will tell you, it's not San Francisco.

      I've lived in the south bay for 16 years, and we have more biotech customers in the east bay than in the peninsula area.

    10. Re:San Francisco isn't the Valley by NetFu · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but a search on Dice.com is hardly solid evidence of your point. Not to mention that 500 jobs is pretty pathetic, relatively speaking -- I've seen far more than that for the silicon valley, but maybe Dice.com just doesn't have much.

      There are a lot of tech service organizations in San Francisco that have been working hard to get our business in the silicon valley, but like somebody else said, the silicon valley companies typically build things (Palm, Apple, HP) or provide services that require a lot of space (Google, eBay) for servers and people.

      Any tech business that has any need for building space will avoid San Francisco like the plague -- it's too expensive. We warehouse electronics products (50,000+ square feet) in silicon valley, and there's no way we'd do that in San Francisco.

      If anything, companies are moving further south or east toward lower priced areas that are more central to where most of their employees live. In fact, it's not a coincidence that we're moving our North American headquarters, where I work, from the northwest part of the silicon valley to the opposite side of the silicon valley. Most of our customers and employees are located closer to the east or south parts of the silicon valley.

      There are definitely tech jobs in San Francisco, but they are definitely a narrow subset of the whole. Most tech businesses, like ours, have been in cost-cutting mode in the last 5 years, and a large part of that is cutting facilities costs, which are sky-high in San Francisco.

      As people piled into the bay area in the past 7-9 years, that high facilities cost has spread south from San Francisco to the northwest silicon valley. Sure, the silicon valley is rebounding and 2005 is the first year in 5 years where we had a net increase in jobs (according to the SJ Business Journal), but we now have 4 business neighbors around us where 7 years ago it was 19. All those other buildings have been vacant for 4 years. Those tech businesses never came back.

      I own a house in the northeast silicon valley, and the move of employees and businesses to the east silicon valley (and beyond) has more than tripled the value of my house in the last 5 years. Land developers are building like crazy using all the vacant lots for commercial and residential buildings (lots that supposedly have been vacant since the orchard/farm days 15-20+ years ago).

      Before that I rented a house in Sunnyvale (near where we work), and to buy that house or others in the area 7 years ago was incredibly outrageous. If you look at any map of property value increases in the silicon valley, it's centered in the east and northeast silicon valley -- because that's where businesses and employees are moving to save money.

      You don't see a lot of development here in the Sunnyvale area, because it's mostly developed and there's really nowhere to expand. Where I live in the northeast silicon valley, I can drive one mile to find farms, horses, cows, and everything else you'd expect to see in a rural area. There's *plenty* of room to expand, so that's where everybody is going.

    11. Re:San Francisco isn't the Valley by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      have you meet anyone? I work at a "web/e-commerce" job, and so do half the people I know here in SF.
      Really? I work at a hospital, and so do half the people I know here in SF. A friend of mine works for PG&E, and so do half the people she knows here in SF.

      I guess 150% of us work in one of those industries.
  8. Following skillsets in high demand by adnonsense · · Score: 3, Funny

    I've done a brief survey of the jobs on offer and for your convenience here is a summary of the main qualifications being looked for this time round:

    • At least 5 years proven experience in Web 2.0 techonologies
    • Certification in Curvy Border Design
    • Extensive experience in collaborative community-based tagging
    • Have own podcast
    • Have own WiFi-enabled "office" in local coffee joint

    and most importantly:

    • A burning belief that an AJAX-powered petfood-fashion-mashup wiki-based user-driven affiliate blog will be the next big thing
    1. Re:Following skillsets in high demand by B3ryllium · · Score: 1

      That was funny! I'm gonna go post it to my blog. Friends-only of course, because that is what social networking was intended for. ;-)

      FWIW, I meet the first two listed requirements. But I got my curvy design certificate from the back of a van in an alley.

    2. Re:Following skillsets in high demand by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      At least 5 years proven experience in Web 2.0 techonologies

      Funny... I thought Web 2.0 was coming out in the near future. I didn't know it was five years old already. Of course, it's not too surprising to see resumes with 20 years of .NET experience.

  9. offshoring is stronger than ever by Travoltus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They're farming out the lower end jobs overseas.

    It used to be that a single mom could hop on the IT train and start out as a call center rep, then get trained within as a black box software tester, then a glass box tester (where you get more familiar with code), and then a program (er, design and development) manager.

    You can't do that any more.

    The kind of jobs they're hiring for now requires the kind of skills only a handfull of the human population can get into.

    Web engineering? Product development? Creative and innovation services? That's highly competitive stuff, if everyone takes that as a course in college they're still only going to hire one out of ten: the best of the best. Hire mister second place web engineer or innovator and you are doomed to make a product your competition will eat alive in the marketplace. By nature these jobs can only be done well by the winner in a long line of competitors. Think: ten people and one chair in a game of musical chairs.

    There is a lot of talent out there that will no longer be tapped. There are a lot of good workers who will no longer contribute to the tech industry at all because they didn't win the cut throat competition for #1 product designer; people who would be quite good at software bug hunting and even customer support. Someone is still doing those jobs, they will never be obsolete - it's just not us Americans any more.

    Steve Levy is right - a lack of diversity in the job force puts you at a far greater risk during a downturn. Oh but if he had any idea how truly right he is.

    Here is a clue for everyone. There is not a single job mentioned in that article that cannot be done equally as well overseas for pennies on the US dollar. As time wears on, look to see all those engineering, web engineering, product development, and all creativity related jobs, can be done overseas.

    The defenders of offshoring also lie a little bit in this story. They imply that offshoring caused a rise in the number of higher end jobs. That is untrue. Technology caused that. There's nothing here that actually shows that offshoring caused a rise in higher end jobs. Offshoring or not, that was going to happen anyway. Their numbers (the replacement figures) were off, too. NetFlix was said to have 100 customer service jobs in 2000. The implication in the article is that we'd only have 100 cust service jobs in 2005. Hardly. Netflix's customer base has grown dramatically. They would have seen dramatic growth in customer service work if they hadn't, undoubtedly, gone overseas. Well, ladies and gentlemen, all I have to say to that is good luck finding a customer service rep at Netflix who will understand your English. And keep an eye on your credit report too. Whatever country whose data center is now processing your information for Netflix is not within the FBI's jurisdiction. If some goon sells your information offshore, guess what? The FBI will never have any authority to bust that sucker. You have to beg that country to arrest them. Good luck. Hope you like your rental movie.

    On the other hand, rumor has it (and I cannot really substantiate this) that companies like DVD Empire outsource their customer support in the US to cheaper areas to cut costs. Again, that is what I heard from a self described employee. I say this is highly ethical.

    Another alarming note? The article noted another truth: employers are now looking for Master's and PhD's. Soon you will need a post graduate degree to get into the field. What will you do when the water line moves up to PhD's? What degree is higher than a PhD?

    Oh, and I forgot. This article does not mention the not so trivial percentage of lower paid H1B workers hired into silicon valley's work force.

    This "solid" article is little more than a cosmic sieve with holes big enough for small moons to sift through...

    --
    --- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
    1. Re:offshoring is stronger than ever by Freexe · · Score: 1

      When hiring, I don't care what qualifications a person has, if they are the best and know their stuff, then I want to work with them.

      Bigger companies might care about qualifications, but smaller ones want people who know what they are doing and can problem solve quickly, not some kid from uni with a degree (I went to uni and know how easy they are).

      Experience and enthusiasm count, not drive to become a middle manager on a bloated salary

      --
      "In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell
    2. Re:offshoring is stronger than ever by jcr · · Score: 1

      They're farming out the lower end jobs overseas.

      Not exactly. What's getting farmed out is the routine work: maintenance, ports from one OS to another, drivers for new devices that have to implement a well-known API, etc. This isn't necessarily low-end work. It's the work which one can readily specify well enough to farm out.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    3. Re:offshoring is stronger than ever by jcr · · Score: 1

      I don't care what qualifications a person has, if they are the best and know their stuff,

      Those are qualifications. Perhaps you meant credentials?

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    4. Re:offshoring is stronger than ever by Travoltus · · Score: 1

      People doing routine jobs become people doing creative jobs. That's where most creativity comes from. Generally speaking, you have to have some experience working in the industry before you can start "innovating."

      Mark this post. You tell me how long it takes to start college right now and get a BS / Master's degree for the luke warm or hot jobs of today. You get to name the job, too. I'll accept that number. By this time that many years from now, the job you named, will be on its way overseas and hiring in that field will be in a state of collapse.

      Do not be fooled into thinking only routine jobs will go overseas.

      Oh and here's another one from the "chicken little" file. Those East Indians doing software testing now will be the wisened coders and project managers of the future. Those project managers will form their own companies using the expertise we gave them.

      Then who will their companies compete against? Yup, us.

      This game of coming up with skills you can't get in East India is a big deception. They can amass have every skill and creativity point that you can find in Silicon Valley and they'll have it for a fraction of the cost. East India is gathering a huge innovation base because of all their entry level workers and their entrepreneurs combined. Why can't East Indians replace product developers? Are they genetically incapable of learning this skill set? Hardly. Web engineering? C'mon! I do that in my sleep. Innovation services? Here is an example of how weak that job type is... I think it is relevant to point out that law firms are looking to East Indian attorneys to come up with innovative new approaches to US law, so to speak. Now a thing about the legal services thing... the people in India advise, they do not make legal decisions. That is because of US law. If it weren't for the law requiring the attorney be in America, well there you go. So much for paralegals, though. The same thing is happening in IT.

      Speaking of non routine work, keep an eye on doctors. American surgeons will (financially speaking) quake with fear of the all powerful and living God almighty when tele surgery matures and medical insurance companies decide to go with remote surgery to make medical care cheaper.

      What do you do? What are you planning on doing in the future? I bet all of the above can go overseas today. My project manager job (which I entered into from a WB/SQA background) sure as heck can. I, for one, am looking for a way out of IT. I will miss software testing and bug hunting when it is gone. I hate what I do now but I do what I do now to escape the offshoring tide. I do not want the stress of competing against you to design the "Next Big Thing". Too many "next big things" fail.

      I want stability for my wife and baby-on-the-way. You can't raise a family without stability. Worrying about your job going away is not the way to live, it is physically unhealthy, and trust me, it will catch up with you. Even faster if you have a family.

      --
      --- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
    5. Re:offshoring is stronger than ever by ErikZ · · Score: 1

      That's great. Who doesn't want to work with someone knowledgeable and competent?

      But no one starts out that way. You need to start off in an entry level position with little knowledge, some competence and a whole lot of ignorance.

      Now, what happens when all those entry-level jobs are sent overseas? The flow is interrupted. Your supply of Knowledgeable and Competent people will start to dwindle.

      Employers that advertise "Entry Level" positions that require skills and experience are messed up.

      --
      Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
    6. Re:offshoring is stronger than ever by Doctor+Memory · · Score: 1

      What degree is higher than a PhD?

      A PhDD? Everybody wants double-Ds!

      --
      Just junk food for thought...
    7. Re:offshoring is stronger than ever by YoJ · · Score: 1

      What degree is higher than a PhD? A PhD degree shows that the holder can do original research and write it up. It's actually not really that high a bar. In academia there are levels and levels of quality. Similarly, when hirers look for good people that have PhDs, you can read their theses to compare them. It shows you how meticulous they are, how smart they are, and how well they can communicate their ideas.

  10. Required by poeidon1 · · Score: 1

    Programmers with 5 year experience in AJAX and .Net

    --
    They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me. -Nathaniel Lee
    1. Re:Required by jozeph78 · · Score: 1

      Programmers with 5 year experience in AJAX and .Net

      You most certainly meant 5 years with .Net 2.0. 5 years of Java 6 would also suffice.

      I saw a job in 2003 ago that asked for 8-10 years of Java. Seriously who writes these job requirements and are they certain they need experience from someone who was on the Green Project?

      On the other hand sticking with Java pre 1.3 demonstrates a serious level of dedication.

      --
      Ever done a `man` on `top` ?
  11. Yes, for High-Skilled Experienced OLD Workers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The market has never been that bad for people with plenty of experience."

    For some loose definition of "that bad". After 9/11, even experienced people were losing their jobs. Coupled with the technical industries tendency to hire the young, and the age discrimmination present. Things could get rough. Now we have retirement plans disappearing, and rising health care costs, and 2006 on could be hard for those who aren't "experienced".

  12. Obligatory Silicon Valley housing gripe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Come on out.. Then pick up that two bedroom "fixer upper" for $700K.

    The WSJ article said "Average annual pay in Silicon Valley hit $69,455 in 2005, up 2.7% from 2004". That must be average across all types of jobs, because the jobs they are talking about are much higher paying than that. But, the salaries are nowhere near enough to offset the housing prices.

    The article is true, there are a lot of job opportunities here. But, I'm in the opposite mode. I've been here 8 years, and I'm looking into options for another area with good tech jobs, and reasonable housing prices. I expect to take a pay cut, but I won't have the risk and cost associated with a $1M mortgage. (Portland? Ann Arbor? Austin? Indianapolis?)

    Even though the house prices are (much) higher than they were in the Internet bubble days, the rental prices are quite a bit less since we're not at 100% occupancy these days. Apartments are still not cheap (1BR 700sf is ~ $1,300), but at the peak those were $2,000+.

    1. Re:Obligatory Silicon Valley housing gripe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If renting a house is cheaper than renting money to buy a house, why not go for the former?

  13. I work for a startup in the valley... by Gordo_1 · · Score: 1

    We've had trouble finding qualified engineering candidates for about a year now. Believe it or not, we outsourced some development work to Pakistan not because it was cheap, but because we simply couldn't find enough qualified engineers locally in the valley (ok, and it was also quite economical). Sure, this amounts to only one data point, but I think the general concensus is that the market is good for job hunters at the moment.

    1. Re:I work for a startup in the valley... by BlueRain · · Score: 1

      Too bad you didn't raise your rate to attract applicants. That'd be a shame.

    2. Re:I work for a startup in the valley... by corngrower · · Score: 1
      ...we couldn't find enough qualified engineers locally.

      So you didn't bother to look for candidates in other parts of the U.S.?

    3. Re:I work for a startup in the valley... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you looking for?

  14. MBA's are stronger than ever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Here is a clue for everyone. There is not a single job mentioned in that article that cannot be done equally as well overseas for pennies on the US dollar. As time wears on, look to see all those engineering, web engineering, product development, and all creativity related jobs, can be done overseas."

    Whew! Missed me by that much.

    1. Re:MBA's are stronger than ever by Travoltus · · Score: 1

      LOL, why can't MBA's be outsourced?

      --
      --- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
    2. Re:MBA's are stronger than ever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      especially when WoW is the new golf!

  15. Programmed all my life by CrazyJim1 · · Score: 1

    I programmed since I was 6. I'm 29 now with a Scientific Computing degree from CMU. I predicted ebay, instant messaging, personal sites, and MMORPGS as being big in 1994. Can't find a job though. Talent and market forsight just isn't enough to snag a job these days.

    1. Re:Programmed all my life by ZeroExistenZ · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why people wouldn't get a job in the IT-area.
      Here in Europe(Belgium) they pay big bucks for programmers, but they don't want the all round programmer who are poorly trained, they want the hard-core geek doing magic and who is most likely already working in another company as they're often "rarity".

      They throw alot of money around to keep good people as they get lured by other companies too often. 2500-3000/month wouldn't be the exception.

      If you've programmed as long and kept up with current trends, there might be some other aspect why you're not getting hired? (maybe the way you present yourself or the way you don't?)

      --
      I think we can keep recursing like this until someone returns 1
    2. Re:Programmed all my life by muyuubyou · · Score: 1

      I'm also 29 and been programming since before I can remember. I do have a job in my field CS/EE - if you want a job based on market prediction (which I can do too anyway, as most seasoned geeks) then you should have become a market analyst. You should better look for a job where you can show expertise, or you will be rated pretty low.

      Good luck!

    3. Re:Programmed all my life by BenjyD · · Score: 1

      Is that salary in Euros? If so, glad I'm not a programmer in Belgium :-)

    4. Re:Programmed all my life by ZeroExistenZ · · Score: 1

      Time to go jobhopping.. :-\

      --
      I think we can keep recursing like this until someone returns 1
    5. Re:Programmed all my life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      3000 for a programming job would be considered pretty lousy in Germany, Britan, the Netherlands, France and pretty much any other European country. Entry level in Germany for someone with a degree would be about 5000. Something has to be wrong that 3000 number..

    6. Re:Programmed all my life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats a pretty normal before taxs pay in europe.

    7. Re:Programmed all my life by BenjyD · · Score: 1

      Really? At what kind of level? The OP implied that was for a relatively skilled programmer : I'm in the UK and I think most good new-graduate programmers would expect around 3000Eur/Month here. Certainly, that was my expectation back then.

    8. Re:Programmed all my life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Belgium, starting programmers get some 2000 euros (and after all taxes they get something around 1200 net.). Why? Because in Belgium the social system is totally different than say the United States. If you get sick for a long period, need to go to hospitals, visit doctors etc... it won't cost you fortunes. You get about 75-85% of that money back from the Government. If you'll never get sick (god bless you), than your sort of out of luck... because you paid a lot of money and never get something back from the Government. I also need to mention the large and heavily funded 'retirement' system in Belgium.

      Last thing to say, a programmer who gets 2000 to 3000 euros, will cost the company between 5000 to 6000 euros per month. In the end, the programmer will receive 1200 euro...

    9. Re:Programmed all my life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Come to Europe! We need good people here and the cost of living (and pace) are both lower while the salaries are still high! We need you!

    10. Re:Programmed all my life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot to mention sliding tax scales - it is actually possible in belgium to get a raise and still only get the exact same net income you did before the raise (with the raise going entirely to taxes) Portions of your gross income can get taxed 65%.

      That's also where the ever-present belgian 'Company Car (diesel)' comes from. It's cheaper for a company to give you a 5-series than to give you another 500 euro/month net wage.

      This is why when you are in Belgium you see depressed hungry people wearing rags drive around in full option BMW's and Audi's - They're not thieves! (also explains the permanent gridlock, gray, soot-covered vegetation and terrible air quality in Belgium)

    11. Re:Programmed all my life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Similar here. I have a B.S. with honors, can program in numerous languages, and hold some certifications. All I can ever get is a @#*$ing operations job, then get outsourced, merged, bought out, laid off, etc. every 2 - 3 years. Rinse and repeat a few times and that's where I am at 30. Ohio truly sucks.

    12. Re:Programmed all my life by gnuLNX · · Score: 1

      Please tell me more.

      --
      what?
    13. Re:Programmed all my life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a nut that doesn't want to work. You want to take credit for other people's work. You want to sell scam game hacks. I'm sure your classmates look back at you with a snicker, while as they can find employment, you're sitting in your mom's basement in Pennsylvania telling everyone about how great you are. Have you ever thought, now that you're 29 and have basically foregone having sex before you're 30, to get on an SSRI so that you can interact in society like a normal person?

    14. Re:Programmed all my life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What ties do you have in Ohio? Is there a reason why you're sticking there? If you really want to succeed, you go where the jobs are. Do the research and be willing to relocate. What area has the lowest unemployment? High demand for highly skilled engineers? I moved from CA to Washington DC several years ago, and I work for a federal systems integrator and have been making a six-digit salary for years. If you're good at something, i.e. Java/XML, security, Oracle, or whatever, you'll be in demand here and make big bucks for some time to come.

      Now I have 2 young children and recently moved to a 6000 sq. ft brick colonial on lakefront acreage in Northern Virginia's horse country. This could be you! (Except for the children part. You'll have to get married first. Which requires getting a girlfriend. Which requires moving out of your parent's basement in Cleveland, for pete's sake.)

    15. Re:Programmed all my life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I predicted ebay, instant messaging, personal sites, and MMORPGS as being big in 1994.

      Don't take this wrong but ideas are a dime a dozen. What success needs is a drive to get the job done (or even started). Did you do anything to bring those about in 1994? Work 20 hours a week in your spare time to get a company started?

      Probably not, and that's not really a complaint as 99.999% of the people out there haven't either. The difference between those with multi-million dollar paychecks from the dotcom- or other- era is that they damned the torpedos and went forward with their idea.

      Granted this isn't easy -- however with the world turning to idea / talent based economy it costs a lot less to startup a company. Its now the price of some laptops and a website. 30-50-100+ years ago it was buying a factory.

    16. Re:Programmed all my life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Belgium, starting programmers get some 2000 euros (and after all taxes they get something around 1200 net.). Why? Because in Belgium the social system is totally different than say the United States.

      Hey that also explains why I haven't heard of any tech or business advances coming out of that country.

    17. Re:Programmed all my life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I second that! I've been interested in a move to Europe for some time now. I've mainly been working in the mobile/embedded area lately though, and I'm not sure how much work in this area is available (in Europe that is). It seems like Java/JSP and SAP (i.e. a lean toward server and business production) are the main technologies in the EU job market. I'd like to make the move, but being a poor programmer doesn't sound terribly attractive :-)

      Again, more info would be greatly appreciated!

    18. Re:Programmed all my life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you are forgetting that a lot of countries in Europe have state funded medical care, good mass transit etc. It's a little cheaper to live in some respects... Higher taxes and gas prices tho.

      -AC

    19. Re:Programmed all my life by evil_lonnie · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but this sounds a bit like the girl that claims that "All the Good Men are Taken or Gay". I would guess based on your background that you are being a bit too picky... despite your pedigree, you may not be hired on as "Vision Champion" or "Tech Evangelist" just yet... There are plenty of tech jobs out here (Unemployment just hit another low last week). I am in the East Bay and I have been getting recruiter calls again for 8 months.

    20. Re:Programmed all my life by mcsquared96 · · Score: 1

      Would agree that talent isn't enough. But there's a very strong tech alumni network at your disposal with a degree from Carnegie Mellon so milk that for all it's worth! Most of my job leads have been through former professors or alumni network listings...

    21. Re:Programmed all my life by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Woot! It's CrazyJim1! Where you been, buddy!?

      I can't believe that people don't want to hire the genius that thought up putting rockets in the hilts of katanas and using them to fly around! Unbelievable. Kudos on predicting a multiplayer game with vehicles mere weeks before Starsiege Tribes was released.

  16. Who needs silicon valley? And isn't it about work? by Qbertino · · Score: 1

    Who needs silicon valley? Can't a skilled worker in Saigon do just a good a job? And isn't it about work? OOAD is nothing less than a must for even the most minor tasks nowadays. Code generators and high profile IDEs come for free a dime a dozen - it only takes people who know how to use them. There isn't even a need for PhDs!
    Computer stuff is more and more becoming a craftmanship rather than science. Most people aren't competeing on innovation anymore, they're competing on price, performance, speed, speciality, availability and quality of service.
    The hype is over folks. We are slowly leaving the steam age of IT. Finally.

    If you want to do something new and refreshing learn the fine arts - don't expect silicon valley to be a substitute for dolce vita anymore.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  17. The city will always feed off boom and bust cycles by Gordo_1 · · Score: 1

    The city (San Francisco for the uninitiated) has a high concentration of industries that feed off the valley, such as graphics design, web design, marketing, tech journalism, conference-related, etc... When things pick up in the valley, it's only a matter of time before the city follows suit. The valley has been slowly recovering and various industries within the city will probably follow along in a matter of a year or two.

  18. Just in time - by boomgopher · · Score: 2, Informative

    Just in time for the real estate market to collapse, taking most of the economy with it...

    --
    Your hybrid is not saving the environment. Its purpose is to make you feel good about buying something.
    1. Re:Just in time - by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People who don't understand economics are amusing.

      But by all means, keep consulting "blogs" to get the latest real estate market outlook.

    2. Re:Just in time - by SlippyToad · · Score: 1
      I've read this previously, and feel free to factually rebut, but I think that most of the time the tail-end of a recession tends to coincide with a housing-market collapse. I can think of a couple of reasons why this is: people during economic good times bid up housing prices, and then during the lean years they use that equity to get by, and there's a lot of "movement" in the market because of local conditions. So when the job market recovers, people are more or less settling back down, and the value of housing in areas that are recovering isn't yet recognized.

      That's my albeit unschooled reasoning on the topic, but nonetheless, I've read several times that one of the major indicators of a real recovery is a housing market collapse. I'm not particularly concerned.

      --
      One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
    3. Re:Just in time - by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want to get an idea of what could happen, look at Japan's recent recession:

      The Nikkei stock market index fell more than 60 percent--from a high of 40,000 at the end of 1989 to under 15,000 by 1992. It rose somewhat during the mid-1990s on hopes that the economy would soon recover, but as the economic outlook continued to worsen, share prices again fell. The Nikkei fell below 12,000 by March 2001. Real estate prices also plummeted during the recession--by 80 percent from 1991 to 1998 (Herbener 1999).

      The article I linked to explains the Keynesian, Monetarist, and Austrian explanation.

    4. Re:Just in time - by h0olapet · · Score: 1

      Except the Housing Bubble Blog includes links to articles written be economists and other people who have thought about these things a lot longer and harder than you have so clear off. Are you saying there isn't a housing bubble? You are one who doesn't understand economics then...idiot.

    5. Re:Just in time - by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People that don't know how to advance an argument are amusing. By all means keep disagreeing with other people's posts without providing any counterargument, whatsoever.

    6. Re:Just in time - by thrillseeker · · Score: 1
      I've read several times that one of the major indicators of a real recovery is a housing market collapse.

      That is greatly tempered by our willingness in the US to have a 30-yr mortgage. Spreading pain (payment) over 30 years, and I've read of discussions for consideration of longer mortages, greatly eases things. Additionally, we offload risk as a business. It's easy enough to purchase insurance to cover unemployment - it simply requires one to do so (and no, I generally haven't either).

      There's no necessity for a real-estate collapse. Real estate is a limited asset just like gold - there's always more to be found, up to some limit not nearly even reached, but it costs something to go get it. Spreading a decrease in real-estate value over a long period will make those decreases have less short term impact. Personally, I don't think there will be any real-estate crash - there will certainly be some who declare bankruptcy and assets will get sold for whatever they're worth - but the vast majority of owners will continue to live and enjoy their homes, with their ownership perhaps requiring a small percentage more of their income.

  19. But IT is where the money is by Travoltus · · Score: 1

    Fine arts people, for the most part, don't make rent.

    --
    --- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
    1. Re:But IT is where the money is by cubicledrone · · Score: 1

      Fine arts people, for the most part, don't make rent

      Motion Pictures + Video Games + Anime/Manga = $22 billion a year.

      That's just in the U.S. Then we can add Japan, Europe and Austraila.

      --
      Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
    2. Re:But IT is where the money is by Travoltus · · Score: 1

      That does not in any way say what these "fine arts" people earn.

      --
      --- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
    3. Re:But IT is where the money is by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 1

      I'll tell my neighbors from Pixar to move the hell out then. Damn cheapskate freeloaders. Disney threw a wad of cash at them - HA - they're still poorer than dirt farmers the lot of em. 7 billion - HA! HA I say! Oh sure they have some computer people - but that drawing thing - meh! and FEH!

      Increadibles, Nemo - just a fad. A FAD!

    4. Re:But IT is where the money is by cubicledrone · · Score: 1

      That does not in any way say what these "fine arts" people earn.

      They all make minimum wage. Every single one.

      --
      Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
    5. Re:But IT is where the money is by Travoltus · · Score: 1

      That was good, mgabrys. :)

      As I said, for the most part, fine arts people don't make rent. A handful of workers at Pixar - the very best of the best in this universe and beyond - don't make that statement untrue.

      I bet you a ton of fine arts grads apply there all the time and get turned down. Feh and meh that.

      We need those entry level jobs - software testing and tech support - back - in order to revive what is commonly understood to be a sagging middle class.

      http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=249 --- this is not a liberal blog.

      The shrinking middle class problem was documented in 2003. There's no evidence to show this has reversed in 2006.

      --
      --- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
    6. Re:But IT is where the money is by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 1

      For the man who likes things linkey:

      http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11569842/site/newsweek /

      OH sure the fine-art market is the having the most lucritive long-term earnings streak in history. But MEH and FEH! What do they know. Sotherby's MEH. Whitney - a pittance. Nothing but bums. Galleries in SF? Give me a break. And to hell with LA and New York. Cow towns the lot of em. Galleries there don't know SQUAT. And the new museums in the Bay Area? The one's that attracted the Royals from England? A total ruse. Don't be fooled.

      MEH!

      But please - keep the stereotypes flying. The less competition for me the better.

    7. Re:But IT is where the money is by Travoltus · · Score: 1

      Oh no, oh no, let everyone take art in school now. Go ahead, have at it. There are 100 plus artists in making a monster pile of money. A landslide job boom of that magnitude hasn't been seen since Methuseleh was around. 100 people, man, that's almost the entire population of some major city! I'm stunned, you've really got me on the ropes now!

      Why, I think I'll bust out me ol' canvas paint me up a few grand. Hallelujah, brother, I've seen the light!

      --
      --- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
    8. Re:But IT is where the money is by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 1

      And there's only 100 artists between NYC., LA, and SF making money. You're beating me to a pulp stop it. Please.

      Instead of the tree - check out the forest, then get back in touch.

    9. Re:But IT is where the money is by Travoltus · · Score: 1

      Oh I'm checking it out. In fact, I'm painting the forest right this minute. Now shush, I have a fortune to make. I can hear the bidders gathering outside my house even now. Pixar, here I come!!!

      --
      --- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
    10. Re:But IT is where the money is by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 1

      Glad I can make money without pissing on how other people do it.
      But then I'm just weird I guess. Good luck with your people skills - they'll take you far.

    11. Re:But IT is where the money is by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Motion Pictures + Video Games + Anime/Manga

      Since when were these things "fine arts", especially game development?

    12. Re:But IT is where the money is by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      What concrete and statistical data do either of you have to support your conclusions?

      Personally, my intuition veers towards the idea that most "fine artists" can't make rent, simply because 90% of everything is crap. Which is exactly the problem we're also seeing in IT fields now: only the top 10% can get paid.

    13. Re:But IT is where the money is by Travoltus · · Score: 1

      Oh come on now! My forest painting is already going for $45,000 in a certain art gallery in San Francisco.

      Honestly though, I don't have statistical data. But when someone tells me there's a huge market for people in the fine arts and I know tons of artists who are unemployed, and I have great cause to believe them when they bring up the "starving artist" problem and state that they would be out on the street if they did not have another day job.

      Sure, a handful of artists will make it big. They always do. But I call BS on the landslide of jobs thing for artists. I'm just asking for proof, and a handful of employees at Pixar and an article about a hundred artists making it big in artsy San Francisco (and artsy-ness is a trait that I do appreciate, mind you), does not an avalanche of jobs make.

      What it means to me is, if you're really really good at being an artist, you will make it big. But if you're really really good at most things, you'll make it big Not everyone can be, though, and that is why our economy needs those "routine" jobs for those "routine" people. "Routine" people are the majority of the world's population. It's a bell curve thing.

      --
      --- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
    14. Re:But IT is where the money is by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 1

      The article is about an exhibition in New York, and profiles an artist from LA. Since you don't read the data I provide - I'd say STFU with my similarly mad person people skillz.

      I love it when geeks try to generalize about a field they have no clue about. Very entertaining.

    15. Re:But IT is where the money is by cubicledrone · · Score: 1

      Since when were these things "fine arts", especially game development?

      Every single one of them requires artists, writers, musicians, composers, animators, designers and directors.

      --
      Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
    16. Re:But IT is where the money is by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      I was agreeing with you, you know!

      We can't have an economy in which only the best 10% of any profession are employed. At least not if we want to have a capitalist economy. If you want to move to something in which the government or non-profits supply the unemployed with enough money to live while only the 10% Best work, do so by all means. I don't think anyone wants that kind of economy, though.

  20. ha, funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I once saw an ad for a job that required 10 years in Java software development! 10 years! Which is totally retarded since java had only been around for about five or six years.

  21. Real job by cubicledrone · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Really? Do the jobs have:

    1. Pension benefit
    2. Paid vacation
    3. Full insurance

    Career job? Will it pay off a mortgage? Guaranteed contract?

    If not, it's not a real job. Could be hired Monday and unemployed by Thursday. Meaningless.

    --
    Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
    1. Re:Real job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Do the jobs have:

      1. Pension benefit
      2. Paid vacation
      3. Full insurance

      Career job? Will it pay off a mortgage? Guaranteed contract?


      If it's Free Software, probably not

    2. Re:Real job by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 1

      May not be a "real-job" by your rules - but the money is real enough for me.

      I guess I'll have to just envy you when I decide to take a half-day off for no reason, work as many or as few hours as I want, and get paid for every hour I work instead of those lovely crunch-time weeks and weekends and all that unpaid overtime. The rush hour headaches, the 9-5 grind. The endless corporate dullness.

      God I envy you. No wait...

      In other news, I particularly liked "Guaranteed contract?" part.

      Um - last I checked - CA was a right to work state. Did you get some cradle-to-grave thing I'm unaware of? When I was full-time I never saw anything "Guaranteed". Layoffs and downsizing - I saw plenty of that. In the last 5 years quite a bit actually.

      If you want to contract and have "security" do what I do. Get more than one client. Most service businesses do that kinda stuff. Most that failed - only had one client, or had a single client that represented far too much income risk.

      But hey - contractors are meaningless! The money? Meh! It's only money. You have a "real-job"! Keep telling yourself that when the next reorg happens. Like Oracle. They have about 2000 fewer "real-jobs" than a month ago. I can only hope the layoffees don't go into contracting but persist in scrambling for more "real-jobs". It means more money for me.

    3. Re:Real job by cubicledrone · · Score: 1

      Um - last I checked - CA was a right to work state.

      Yep. Dodgers play in California too. And there's a guaranteed contract here and there in baseball.

      Right to work doesn't mean that contracts aren't allowed. There is no worse revenue agreement than a W-4 job. No business, and I mean NO business would accept a revenue agreement that can be unilaterally canceled.

      When I was full-time I never saw anything "Guaranteed". Layoffs and downsizing - I saw plenty of that.

      There's a surprise.

      --
      Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
    4. Re:Real job by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 1

      So you're using the metric of a handfull of pro-baseball contracts to compare to 99.99999999999 (pause for breath) 99999999999 percent of the jobs in CA and all other right-to-work states - and most of the planet for that matter.

      M-kay. I'm an idiot. I'll have to defer the plight of the average wage earner to Hollywood, the music industry, and pro-sports. Color me stupid. The market is doing great for full timers in the movie industry and baseball. No doubt.

      And you're surprised by layoffs? Seriously? Uh, you did read a paper in the last 5 years right? Those things called unemployment figures? Those were full-time jobs last I checked. Emphasis on "were". But hey - job position for life must be rampant in your company. I'll send a fax to the UAW workers that have been shit-canned that your group is hiring for life.

      Amazing things in your world! Simply amazing!

      I may not have a "real-job" but I get paid for every hour of "real-work". Real is not subjective in my work. That goes double for those cheesy companies that believe a 4 hour revenue costing interview is a favor. Kiss my hourly ass or pay the fucking invoice HR biotch! I don't work for free like some "full-timers" I know.

    5. Re:Real job by drew · · Score: 1

      Hmm. In other words, you mean to say that the software industry is virtually the same in that respect to every other private sector industry these days?

      Tell me one (non-government) job in any industry that is guaranteed to pay off a thrity year mortgage and I'll give you a free cookie.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    6. Re:Real job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pension benefits? 1958 called and wanted their worker incentive program back

    7. Re:Real job by cubicledrone · · Score: 1

      So you're using the metric of a handfull of pro-baseball contracts

      It is an example. Right to work does not mean "no guaranteed contracts."

      And you're surprised by layoffs? Seriously?

      Nope. All jobs are layoffs. There are no jobs in this economy. It's all temporary half-pay no-benefit part-time non-career busywork while middle management stuffs their pockets and orders from the seafood menu. 50% of the working-age population in this society is not employed in a full-time permanent job. FIFTY percent.

      And a 2-bedroom house is $490,000. Oh yeah. I'll take that soup-can-stocking job at Wal-Mart.

      --
      Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
  22. Maybe when the economy collapses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    we can get those good jobs back that they sent overseas.

  23. sure enough by exeqtor · · Score: 1

    programmers are the only people who are programing their dismmis...

  24. Re:WOOT (Pssst.. the H-1B quota is closed) by FirstOne · · Score: 1

    "Yay, would this mean outsourcing is going down, or that the industry is growing? Also, does this mean that it's actually worth it for me to continue my education and get a degree in Computer Engineering? "

    The answer to the second question is no..... It's just the same pattern repeating itself. (1998, 1999, 2000, 2005...)

    ... Tech companies are now forced into the domestic JOB market as the H-1B quota is closed for the remainder of the federal fiscal year (til Oct 1).


    Hence ALL the squealing by President Bush and the industry lobbyists.
    Lobbyists perpetuate their scam by claiming every position staffed by a contractor/consultant as unfilled !!

  25. Looks like I need to move... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... because there sure as heck aren't any tech jobs in Ohio. I've tried for too long already.

    1. Re:Looks like I need to move... by chez69 · · Score: 1

      I have one now, and moving to a better one. what city are you looking in?

      --
      PHP is the solution of choice for relaying mysql errors to web users.
    2. Re:Looks like I need to move... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Columbus area. All I can ever get is operations when I have been trying to get into programming for many years.

    3. Re:Looks like I need to move... by chez69 · · Score: 1

      try cleveland, there are several large places trying to recruit folks

      --
      PHP is the solution of choice for relaying mysql errors to web users.
  26. You must be my twin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've also programmed since I was 6, and I have a BS in ECE from CMU (class of 98)

    Though I'm now making more than I've ever been; from what I can tell people with experience are doing quite well. Its the entry level people that have been screwed.

  27. Do the math: They hire the same people by Betabug · · Score: 1

    Quote from the Article:

    > "Our new engineers have an average of seven to 15 years
    > experience," says Patty McCord, Netflix's chief talent
    > officer. "Five years ago, we hired people with three to
    > five years of experience."

    5 years ago: 3 to 5 years experience.
    Now: 7 to 15 years experience.
    The people who had 3 to 5 years experience 5 years ago have
    now 8 to 10 years experience.

    So, in essence they hire the same people they hired five
    years ago. Only those people worked on in the meantime and
    got more years of experience under their belts.

    It is not clear from the article, but if the guys with the
    15 years of experience do anything with web development,
    their names better be "Tim Berners-Lee", cuz 2006 - 15 = 1991.

    1. Re:Do the math: They hire the same people by mikael · · Score: 1

      It's always been like that. You used to see job adverts in the early 1990's fo r developers with 15 years experience of IBM PC/MS-DOS application development.

      Basically, employers are looking for the fast-sprinters; the people who are the very first to learn a new technology without having to be pushed. Which in turn means you have be in one of two places; a company which allows/wants their employees to be working on the latest technology, or a position that allows you to earn enough money to buy the hardware and learn in your own time (assuming you can afford the hardware or have the time). Consequently, you have to avoid dead-end positions which have NCA restrictions or have managers who won't adopt technology they don't understand or trust.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    2. Re:Do the math: They hire the same people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not clear from the article, but if the guys with the
      15 years of experience do anything with web development,
      their names better be "Tim Berners-Lee", cuz 2006 - 15 = 1991.


      While I'm no Tim Berners-Lee, back in my college days I worked a student job for one of my history professors building web pages for one of his projects. That was in 1993, so not quite 15 years ago, but close. So it wouldn't surprise me to find a fair number of people from academic backgrounds starting to push that 12-15 year "web experience" threshhold now.

      Incidently, you can google "HNSource" to find usenet postings and listserv messages related to the stuff I was working on. To keep a proper frame of mind, realize that originally Yahoo used to maintain their web index by hand. Back in the day, this web thing was all so new and novel ;)

  28. Re:Who needs silicon valley? And isn't it about wo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This has to be the single most retarted statement I have seen today. Do you honestly think that computing will look the same in 10 years as it does now? That there's nothing new to learn? That's it, we've developed it all? No need for people actively pushing the boundaries of what can be done? Get a clue. This field has barely begun.

  29. I beg to differ. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm sorry but I disagree with you.

    Programming is more of a discipline than a 'calling'.
    Clarity of thought, logical reasoning and open-mindedness and communication skills are key to building skills that make a great programmer. These enable you to build up the skills and experience,

    Ironically, these are exactly the types of things you will have to exhibit on a Philosophy degree, where as computer science will probably focus on building your knowledge, without stretching these key areas.

    Programming languages come and go, platforms come and go, idioms change, protocols change, etc.
    What doesn't change are the key requirements for a good programmer; clarity of thought, logical thinking, open-mindedness, and communication skills.

    I hope this gives you some food for thought, as it's not intended as an insult.

  30. From the graphic on that article ... by khasim · · Score: 1

    ... it doesn't look so good.
    http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/images/MK-A F855_VALLEY_20060227193322.gif

    Okay, so most people don't read the articles, I know.

    But the numbers don't match the story.

  31. Jobs are at Master's and Ph.D. level only... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    according to the article, which shows a 4% increase in only one job category ("Creative/innovative") and decreases of 10% to 29% in all other categories including "software".

    So I call "Bullshit!" on this one.

  32. Math has the benefit of being consistent?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe you should read up on some of the mathematics research done over the last century, and rethink that one...

  33. Hurray for tax cuts? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone? Buller?

  34. Employers are not your parents by cryfreedomlove · · Score: 1

    Cubicledrone,

    Can you give us an idea of how you would write a 'guaranteed contract'? I'm just curious as to the language you would use.

    And, in case you wondered what I think, the guarantee you are looking for comes from within yourself. Your ability to make yourself valuable to a company, to contribute to the goals of the business, and to be a positive role model for others in the company will give you more opportunities than you can possibly handle in one lifetime. That's a lot more fun than trying to find the right company to be your surrogate parent.

    1. Re:Employers are not your parents by cubicledrone · · Score: 1

      Can you give us an idea of how you would write a 'guaranteed contract'? I'm just curious as to the language you would use.

      Company will pay employee their salary in full for the entire length of the contract, layoffs and idiot managers notwithstanding. Just like any other guaranteed contract.

      That's a lot more fun than trying to find the right company to be your surrogate parent.

      I wouldn't have any problem with the "hired Monday fired Thursday" business model if the employee could simply cancel their credit obligations. It is unfair for the employee to be held to an ironclad contract while the employer has the flexibility of "right to work" agreements. Absolutely totally and inarguably unfair.

      W-4 employment is obsolete.

      --
      Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
  35. Mod Parent Up... by anomalous+cohort · · Score: 1

    ...and mod the chicken little post down. Even with the near instantaneousness of the web, India is still 12.5 time zones away, both temporally and culturally. It is much better to send very detailed and non-ambiguous specifications off shore due to the long feedback loop. That delay has serious opportunity costs that offset any savings in wages.

    That is why all of the Indian companies are CMM level 5 certified or better. They already understand their value proposition.

    1. Re:Mod Parent Up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How can you be better than CMM level 5? CMM doesn't have level 6...

      Additionally, very few shops really make it to level 5, due to the cost. Even with the lower costs in India, running a true level 5 shop would remove pretty much all of the cost savings that they would normally be able to provide.

  36. This is fine for C.S. grads, etc .... BUT.... by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    My big complaint with this supposed economic "turn-around" is that it's leaving a lot of folks behind. Yes, the people who managed to stay with a large company, working with cutting edge technologies this whole time are in good shape. So are recent college C.S. grads. and those entering the program today. But an awful lot of talented computer people fell through the cracks in the early 2000's, forced to take big pay cuts and work in positions well below their potential, just to make ends meet. Now, these folks are the ones who can only claim "4-5 years of experience in technology X" while their peers who were luckier can claim twice that, simply because they didn't get a pink slip in 2001 or 2002.

    As technology marches on, the bar keeps rising on everything. Traditionally, the computer field has been great because there was so much potential to be self-taught. Just get your hands on a relatively cheap PC at home, spend a bunch of time with it, and that's pretty much all that's required to become "employable" someplace in the industry. I knew several long-haul truck drivers, for example, who decided to switch careers and became A+ Certified Computer Techs in their spare time. It wasn't going to make them rich or anything, but it used to be they'd get a comparable salary to the truck driving and it gave them a better lifestyle with more time at home.

    Nowdays, unless you're independently wealthy, you simply can't afford to play with the technologies most companies expect new hires to be experienced with. (Are you going to set up a Citrix farm at home? How about some networked ERP or CRM software? Have experience with 2-way satellite networking or high-end Cisco switching equipment? Oracle Enterprise database, maybe?) Therefore, the recent college grads. and grads. to be get a shot at a job, because their school probably did invest the money to allow them to work with some of this "hands on". Those who held onto a good job with a biig company have it to. Everyone else is screwed.

  37. official release '95, which brings it closer to 10 by ranjix · · Score: 1

    to lazy to write a full comment

    --
    I had another sig before, but this one is better
  38. I call B.S. by btarval · · Score: 1
    "not because it was cheap, but because we simply couldn't find enough qualified engineers locally in the valley "

    Pure, utter, B.S.. It was ALL about economics; there are plenty of qualified engineers out there.

    I can guarantee you that, for a $200K per year salary, I can find you ANY number of qualified engineers. I suspect that you'd agree.

    Heck, if you're serious, offer the typical 20% fee you'd pay to a recruiting agency to anyone here on Slashdot who can find your ideal candidate, and you'll have a wealth of qualified candidates to choose from.

    So, we can attribute your decision to pure economics, and not that you couldn't find qualified engineers. One can always find qualified engineers; it's only a matter of how much you're willing to pay.

    --
    The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Peter Drucker.
    1. Re:I call B.S. by Gordo_1 · · Score: 1

      OK, obviously you know the situation better than me, so I won't bother to explain that the type of experienced low-level hardware engineers we were looking for are simply not that common.

      Just because you can aleggedly find someone to fit the role for an exhorbitant fee and salary doesn't change the fact that there is low supply and high demand for certain types of engineering jobs (a jobhunter's market) -- my point in the first place.

    2. Re:I call B.S. by btarval · · Score: 1
      No, your point in the first place was what I quoted, that you couldn't find qualified engineers. I'm sorry, but that's just B.S.. Whenever someone says that, what they always mean is that they can't find qualified engineers who will work for peanuts. At least not in Silicon Valley.

      You seem to be under the impression that what you offered for a salary would attract someone qualified; and reality showed you differently.

      I have worked with a lot of hardware engineers doing low-level work; on bringup projects of different types of complexity (from rather simple, to truly sophisticated cutting edge work; usually the latter). They are out there, you just have to know how to find them. And to attract them. And to keep them.

      I wish you luck with your project. Personally, I wouldn't dream of offshoring work like that if it was critical to my companys' success. I've worked with projects that have outsourced locally to a company 30 minutes away; and that caused enough headaches that it was a questionable decision. I can't see how offshoring something like that is going to work in any sort of timely fashion, for anything other than a toy project. There are just way too many things to go wrong; and debugging with a team half-way around the world will make you rethink whether that $200K salary is, as you said, "absurd".

      It's not absurd whatsoever, if time is more valuable than money. Especially when these kinds of engineers usually want just $150K, which is typical for these engineers working in startups currently. In fact, I'll even bet you remember this conversation if you haven't gone through the complete debug cycle. *grin*.

      In the meantime though, those hardware engineers that you couldn't attract are working for your competition, I'm afraid to say. That's not exactly a competitive advantage. But I do wish you luck.

      --
      The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Peter Drucker.
  39. Temps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Some of the big tech companies here in Silicon Valley are only hiring temps. Others are simply putting up job ads because they're required to, or they're for tax breaks -- if someone actually qualifies, that would just be a bonus.

    I got my current job because I know someone. No way I would have gotten this job otherwise. I know this because I was told so by my manager who hired me. I have a lot of experience, but in other areas. Directly experienced candidates (before me and currently) for the same exact job are getting turned away in droves. As far as my job performance goes, I can honestly say that I'm doing about as well as the "experts" I work alongside with, and they're both temps (I am too). All of us are better at our jobs than a permanent employee we have to work with (who barely does anything unless yelled at by our manager).

    It's who you know, not what you know. Before my current job, I believed that, at the very least, 'what you know' would count for something... Only if you're a PhD and willing to work for (relatively) peanuts.

    1. Re:Temps by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 1

      Well, certainly there's tons of contracting options I can vouch for that. Most of the "second-wave" companies are still at the card-table stages, and aren't in a rush to expand until their revenue models take-hold (or until a major investment comes along). That suits me just fine. I'd rather see new tech jobs grow more organically than the last wave which hired and fired very - very quickly.

      My afternoon client is doubling in size in the next 60 days, and a previous client in the same buidling has trippled in size (and hired the building manager among other people. Anyone who gets near them seems to get sucked in (oh yes - they stole our receptionist too).

      Is this the case with everyone? No - but the SF market has a lot of new companies to chose from. Not as stable as secure as an entrenched one - but they need bodies it seems. I predict a full-blown 1999 labor crunch in a year given the callbacks I'm getting (at least 2 a week - and I'm not really looking right now - I've got 2 contracts a day and 3 clients in a given week, plus 2nd tier leads that already have a place in line) and I'm not even wanting to work 40 hours a week. I came out here to paint.

      Not everyone's story, but man, if this is "just getting there" or " false hype" I'd go nuts having to deal with the real-thing.

  40. A little too self defeating.. by vhold · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I guess Oracle appears to know what you are talking about:

    "Oracle Database 10g Express Edition (Oracle Database XE) is an entry-level, small-footprint database based on the Oracle Database 10g Release 2 code base that's free to develop, deploy, and distribute; fast to download; and simple to administer."

    And Microsoft too, kinda:

    "We originally announced pricing of Visual Studio Express at US$49. We are now offering Visual Studio Express for free, as a limited-in-time promotional offer, until November 6, 2006. Note that we are also offering SQL Server 2005 Express Edition as a free download, and that this offer is not limited to the same promotional pricing period as Visual Studio Express."

    I guess "Express" is some kind of magic phrase:

    "With DB2 Express-C, faculty and students have direct access to an easy to learn and easy to use database for relational and XML data at no charge."

    I don't think it's in these vendors' best interests to have such high bars to entry for the worker either.

  41. Living off of credit cards for 15 years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Been living off of credit cards for the last 15 years now... there is no money in the computer business.

    Computers are just digital crack. They don't make you productive, they don't accomplish anything. All you are ultimately doing is moving bits around on a screen or on a platter.

    You give me a job that isn't obscenely ridiculous for qualifications and specifications and I'll do it. Any search on computerjobs.com comes up with requirements for skillsets that are just so out there and retardedly ridiculous you don't want to touch them with a ten foot pole. Like having to learn a whole slew of programming languages and libraries just for one job, that you know are dead obsolete already before you even crack the manuals.

    The IT industry is whack.

  42. And Mod this one up, too by btarval · · Score: 1

    This is a superb and succienct summary of the situation, even given some of the fine engineers that I've seen in India.

    --
    The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Peter Drucker.
  43. The economy needs areas like Silicon Valley by Infonaut · · Score: 1

    Who needs silicon valley?

    Urban concentrations are still important because of the social networks they engender. In particular, Silicon Valley has a very strong network of investors, universities, and veteran entrepreneurs. Perhaps more importantly, the environment in Silicon Valley is one that embraces risk. In the Valley, having worked at a few startups that bombed is not a mark of failure. It's more like a badge of courage. It shows that you have some experience and that you've learned something. People here literally enjoy sharing tales about companies they started that flamed out.

    That entrepreneurial spirit and willingness to take risks and try new things is what makes Silicon Valley necessary. When other regions start truly embracing this culture of risk-taking, Silicon Valley will no longer be the dominant tech innovator that it is today.

    --
    Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
  44. Re:guest workers will get the jobs by alfredo · · Score: 1

    I read last week where they were raising the restrictions. Yeah, they may be hiring, but will they be hiring Americans, or guest workers?

    --
    photosMy Photostream
  45. Re:Who needs silicon valley? And isn't it about wo by Zerbs · · Score: 1

    I say bring those kinds of jobs to Ohio, or any other part of the US that has a large number of qualified people, and a lowwer cost of living than California. Doesn't the internet make physical location less relevant? I don't get why companies want to locate in an area where they are going to have to pay people 50% more for doing the same job. Building out there not only forces higher payrolls, but makes the people move to the job, causing even more expenses. Put the jobs where the people are.

    --
    "22 astronauts were born in Ohio. What is it about your state that makes people want to flee the Earth?" Stephen Colbert
  46. Hiring by SuperGhost · · Score: 1

    I love the job posts that require: - 400+ years of AJAX.NET - 628+ years of ASP, PHP, Perl, ASP.NET, C#, VB.NET, COBOL, Windows Calculator, ColdFusion, Flash, Photoshop, Google Mining, VB6, XML, RSS, Java, JavaScript, J#, C++, Commodore 64, SQL 2000, SQL 2005, Oracle, Python, BASH, Binary, Hexadecimal, XML, More SML, More AJAX, ASP.NET 2.0 - 106-229 years coffee-drinking Starbucks or other name-brand. McDonald's coffee drinkers need not apply. - 300+ years managing 400,000,000 users in a Windows NT / Windows XP / Windows 3.1 / Windows Vista / Windows Google / Unix / DOS / We dont even know what else environment. etc... etc...

    1. Re:Hiring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Crap! I don't drink coffee...

  47. Yeah, but can you afford to live there? by dood · · Score: 1

    Hiring might be up but that doesn't make it any cheaper to live there. Housing on average is nearly 5 times the cost of average US houses.

    Check out this guy (Cameron Moll) -- he's a fantastic designer and passed up a job with Apple partially because of the cost of living (he's a family of 6). Even for a family of 2 or 4, it's hard to find an affordable place to live.

    1. Re:Yeah, but can you afford to live there? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Truly intelligent companies would allow someone like this to work remotely, from wherever they want to live, or would pay him a better salary to overcome this ridiculous cost of living. Or they would move the company (or open satellite offices, etc.) to someplace cheaper.

      Of course, we don't have many intelligent companies these days. The execs running these stupid companies can easily afford $10 million homes in Silly Valley and they like it there, so they think everyone else should like it there too.

  48. What is going to happen in the future? by Guffy9 · · Score: 1

    "This time, tech firms... have moved lower-skill jobs out of the Silicon Valley area to cheaper locations, or outsourced them to foreign countries. The new jobs they are creating locally often require specialized skills in engineering and design." If the majority of new jobs in Silicon Valley are all requiring 7-15 years experience, and the lower level jobs are moving overseas, then what is going to happen in 5 or 10 years, when there are no americans with 7-15 years experience, because everyone with 7-15 years experience are overseas?

  49. Not a cube drone by drewzhrodague · · Score: 1

    Not all of us are cubical drones. I have been UNIX contracting for 10 years. I generally do project-based stuff -- I only work for companies for ~ 6-8 months, sometimes shorter. I think I prefer visiting all kinds of offices, and working on all kinds of equipment, to being shut-in to only one limited function. Like they say, though, to each his and/or her own.

    --
    Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
  50. Too bad you're all gonna be off shored by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You ever read 'The World is Flat'?
    Us lazy americanos are going to be working in chinese sweatshops by 2020, and We Deserve It.

  51. Three little words... by zerofoo · · Score: 1

    DEAD CAT BOUNCE

    After years of job/cost cutting and low-quality outsourcing, companies are finally starting to realize that the brain drain of the .com bubble burst is now hurting their product pipelines.

    -ted

  52. If you are going into CS, you better be the BEST by maillemaker · · Score: 1

    From the TFA:

    "SanDisk's fastest-growing job category has been product development and research, where the company is now hiring "at the master's level and Ph.D. level," says Judy Bruner, SanDisk's chief financial officer. "We can't take just a general engineer.""

    Like I said in another thread - there are still jobs in IT. But gone are the days where you could be a dabbler in computers and have the world as your oyster. Today, the mundane and average jobs have been shipped overseas. If you want to work in IT in the United States, you had better be among the best of the best. The bar has been raised. And if your skills don't match where the bar is set, forget it - those jobs are gone.

    Steve

    --
    A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
  53. I doubt it ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Come on ... hiring ... get real. We're in year 6 of the George W. Bush administration. People aren't hiring, this is the worst economy since Hoover and everything is going to hell ... well it would seem that way anyway if you read the New York Times .... liberals crack me up. I wouldn't post as an AC but I'd get mod bombed by some college lib who lives off of mommy and daddies cash and then wants to lecture others about how the world "should" work. Get a job bum, they do exist, then after you compare your gross to your net and realize how much you're getting screwed and how little you actually get in return, then talk to me about things "should" work.

    1. Re:I doubt it ... by LibertineR · · Score: 1

      Damn, I wish I had mod points for you, brother. Amen!

  54. Why there never was a housing bubble by heroine · · Score: 1

    Rent is going up and people who said $1,000,000 was too much for a house are thinking differently. Silicon valley isn't like Detroit or Minnesota. When the wind changes from one industry to another, the population changes. The QA engineers and programmers have moved out. The managers and venture capitalists have moved in. In 2015 they're going to be saying $7,000,000 is cheap for a house.

    1. Re:Why there never was a housing bubble by blofeld42 · · Score: 1

      Er, no. Housing inventory has been bloating for the last several months, and median prices have been drifting down. Affordability indexes are in the single digits, meaning you need a top 10% income to afford a media-priced house. Rents across the range of housing are about 1/2 of what it costs to buy.

  55. Perhaps you prefer housing prices in Beijing by heroine · · Score: 1

    There are a lot of people in this world who think the 10x housing to income multiple of Silicon Valley is cheap. By world standards, housing should be 40x your income. $1,000,000 housing is cheap.

    1. Re:Perhaps you prefer housing prices in Beijing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Say I am considering purchasing a $250,000 home. So $250,00 / 40 = $6250. I hope you suggesting this as a monthly income not a yearly one.

    2. Re:Perhaps you prefer housing prices in Beijing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Should have been: Say I am considering purchasing a $250,000 home. So $250,000 / 40 = $6250. I hope you suggesting this as a monthly income not a yearly one.

    3. Re:Perhaps you prefer housing prices in Beijing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've gotta be a real estate agent or heavily invested in a bunch of high priced homes, this is your second post celebrating the ridiculous costs of living in the bay area.

  56. Ohio, where the private sector rapes the public. by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    Well, consider that they've only recently stopped raising (unneeded) taxes to remove people off their land - given how they've done it to some in that area, and that namesake was one of them(and not just the airport). They've done it to companies as well, and the result is the same.

    Combine that with Ohio being the 2nd capital of corruption, and you figure out fast that things are bound to always get killed here if you work private sector. If you have a clean record, see if you can get a clearance and then a job with a government contractor. These people will even cover your vacation expenses, even to far off places such as Italy.

    The only other option would be to overhaul education to a point where you could walk into any university in Ohio, even Case Western, and get all years paid off - no exclusion policy like Ohio State wants to pull.

    Even the spammers are having trouble, but who wants them prosperous (at least in /.)?

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  57. Re:Who needs silicon valley? And isn't it about wo by daniel422 · · Score: 1

    Uhh..dude, there's over 35 million people in California. More than any other state. I think they do have the jobs where the people are.
    And there's more to California than just jobs. It's getting away from your job that's the best in Califonia -- as in you can go to almost any type of environment you want to in a few hours (ocean, forests, deserts, mountains, lakes) any time of the year. Having lived in many other (...cold...) places in the US, it's easy to see California's attaction..

  58. Stay out of India by SirLanse · · Score: 1

    We were outsourcing to India. But it is obvious they do not want our business. Protests against the US are going on. Do you want your money over there? Or does anyone think China is a better place to send your money? I try to buy things build in the west not the far east.

    1. Re:Stay out of India by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't have to be from India to hate Bush. You don't have to hate Americans, nor do you have to hate America. You can simply hate Bush without hating anything else.

      Just because they're Indians, doesn't mean they can't have an opinion about a war that is raging on their continent, and the man in charge of that war.

  59. Booo by AK__64 · · Score: 1

    This is a bad idea. Decentralization needs to occur here, to drive innovation in teleconferencing software and reduce software and hardware prices due to lower real estate costs.
     
    Insurance is higher there, costs of doing business in general have been proven to be higher there, why, why, why are high-tech industries continuing to locate major operations in California? Highly educated workforce and weather only gets you so far in answering that question. Add in the presence of critical mass that already exists and the issue is less of an enigma, but still...

  60. Erm, I took some compsci courses. by skids · · Score: 1

    ...as part of my EE degree. Other than the stupid ADA course, they were all on algorithm theory. Hardly a "rote memorization" field.

  61. Nothing but overblown spin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We should have seen this coming.  Two weeks ago the set-up was, "Doomsday scenarios and hysterical predictions about the bulk of electronics engineering jobs moving from the U.S. overseas may be overblown." No kidding?  You mean McKinsey's claim of $1.14 gained for every $1.00 off-shored can't be extended to infinity?  There are real-life trade-offs not captured by their simplistic and self-serving "research"?  Thank goodness!

    Last week the "clincher" arrived with the headline, "Valley CEOs 'bullish' on hiring for 2006." As usual, the headline was picked up and parroted, literally word-for-word, on seemingly all the local radio and television "news" programs.  (Is it really "news" when you report somebody else's press release?)  The sub-headline, "More jobs were added in 2005 than expected," caused me to laugh out loud.

    Apparently we've been doing something the "professionals," or people paid to know what the heck they're talking about, do not do.  We've been keeping track!

    We reported last March in, "Playing with the jobs stats," the state of California and the BLS changed their benchmarks, setting the stage, in our opinion, to show statistical job growth by manipulating the basis for calculations.

    Under this new regime, the net of 2005 "job growth" in Silicon Valley was 25,100 (+3.0%) accompanied by a decline of -500 (-1.3%) in the reported number of unemployed.  How do you "gain" 25,000 jobs but only lose -500 unemployed?

    Measuring Santa Clara County "residents employed," (which should be harder to fudge) the y-o-y number comes in at  -1,100 (yes, it was negative!), which could begin to explain the -500 unemployed?

    Of course, the media focused on the most positive number.  (We don't blame them but do wish they would point out 2005 was the first year ANY net job gains were recorded since the boom.)  Even with the lack of traction on unemployed, 2005's +3% gain in "total jobs" was clearly, "better than a sharp stick in the eye," as my grandmother used to say.

    One more factoid, then we'll get back to the point:  2005's local employment of 791.4K compares to December 1997's 925.6K, a deficit of  -134K jobs (-14.5%).  (The highest December was 944.3K in 1999, which means we are still missing -153K jobs during today's "recovery.")

    The point at hand was the "clincher" article, citing various percentages of un-named CEOs and their expectations for hiring in 2006.  We were in the process of point-by-point pithy comments and snappy comebacks but instead decided to settle for the following:

                 Housing   net# of
    2005         Median$   new jobs
    January         $0K     +8.6Ku
    February      +$22K     +4.3
    March         +$33K     +2.2
    April         +$17K     +5.2
    May            +$8K     +5.2
    June          +$15K     +5.1
    July           -$5K     -1.1
    August        +$14K     -2.7
    September      -$9K     +0.1
    October        +$9K     +2.3
    November       +$1K     +0.1
    December      -$15K     -3.8

    Yes, the valley added some new jobs in 2005.  However, beware the touts telling us things will only get better in 2006.  Company insiders are selling their stock at record rates(&).  Executives whose business it is to "spin" news so that you will feel safe buying their shares, are missing the correlation with housing.

    Conclusion:
    During the months housing prices were running up (January through August), 30,600 "total jobs" were added. The real "clincher" is once we got the first downtick in housing prices in July, the county lost -5,500 jobs the rest of the year.

  62. Ultimately, Machines will write machine code.. by aquadivina · · Score: 1

    Customers will write their own software with other software.. Just connect the boxes..