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PS2 Controller Suit Goes Badly For Sony
Immersion Corp, which owns the patent on 'rumble' technology, has won another round in its suit against Sony. Sony's 'dualshock' controller has used rumble technology for years, and in 2005 a judge awarded $82 Million to the patent-holder in payment. From the article: "Sony's defence was the alleged nondisclosure of some of the inventions of key employee Craig Thorner. who has been a consultant both for Immersion and subsequently for Sony. But, according to the report, U.S. District Judge Claudia Wilken was unhappy with Thorner's testimony supporting Sony, given that he had also been paid by Sony, and so dismissed this line of defence."
They reap what they sow.
Shame on Microsoft for paying off these patent crooks.
Shame on Sony for not doing a better job of defending this case.
These sleazbags from Immersion need to put out of business. No one should be allowed to shakedown a market.
Patent crap from totally unknown companies, but being against Sony and this:
:-(
But, according to the report, U.S. District Judge Claudia Wilken was unhappy with Thorner's testimony supporting Sony, given that he had also been paid by Sony, and so dismissed this line of defence.
Who to side for?? Help me!!
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
HELLO WORLD
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HELLO WORLD
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K-BYE
We're talking about a fundamental principal discovered hundreds of years ago by Newton. How the hell was something as simple as a non-symmetric rotating mass patented in the first place?
WTF with these encrypted messages? How does one en/decode them?
Why does this have a Sony icon, but not the Dual Shock controller PS2 icon. It would seem more apropriate...
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
You can pick up some prior art and your local adult boutique.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
A PS2 Controller Suit - neato!
Am I the only one who read this and instantly imagined this jump-suit that you'd wear that could maybe read your arm and leg positions to put you directly control your PS2?
Instead we get details of some bogus lawsuit about bogus stuff that we really don't care about.
Whatever happened to cool stuff?
www.sjbaker.org
And yet Nintendo has escaped lawsuit? I remember way back when getting the bulky rumble pak for the N64. Prior Art?
Mr. Universe: "They can't stop the signal, Mal. They can never stop the signal."
This doesn't by any means overshadow the other hardware-related, possible causes for the delays, but might this be a contributing factor no one has mentioned previously?
-NIs
I wonder when they supposedly developed this technology. Video game controllers to my knowledge have had this functionality at least since the n64 Rumble Pak.
nothing
Courtesy of: http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_vi ew.asp?article_class=7&no=279261&rel_no=1
Evangelical broadcaster Pat Robertson said Monday on his live "700 Club" television program that Islam wants to take over the world and is not a religion of peace, and that radical Muslims are "satanic."
After watching a news segment about radical Islam in Europe, Robertson remarked that the outpouring of rage elicited by cartoon drawings of the prophet Muhammad "just shows the kind of people we're dealing with. These people are crazed fanatics, and I want to say it now: I believe it's motivated by demonic power. It is satanic and it's time we recognize what we're dealing with."
He also said that "the goal of Islam, ladies and gentlemen whether you like it or not, is world domination."
> Robertson obviously has confused a religion with a war monger.
Seditously,
Kilgore Trout, C.E.O.
We're talking about 1.37% of revenue:
FTA
In the last ruling against Sony, made in early 2005, Judge Claudia Wilken of the U.S. District Court levied an $82 million award to Immersion Corp., or 1.37% of Sony's sales of PlayStations and PlayStation-related paraphernalia. The $82 million is less than the $299 million originally sought by Immersion Corp., but the court ruled that Sony's infringement of the vibration patents was not willful and therefore not deserving of the full penalties.
Ok, OT, but we have been balancing car tires for years? This is just a small version of a spinning unbalanced tire? How is this new?
I dont think Newton had a video game system or a force-feedback controller. The scope of a patent is determined by its claims, not based on what a slashdot summary says. The claims of this patent are limited to a force-feedback controller
Sony could have licensed this patent for a few dollars several years ago (like everyone else did), but instead they relied on a frivolous legal theory (inequitable conduct) to invalidate the patent. Despite attempts by numerous big companies to invalidate this patent based on prior art, no one has ever located any meaningful prior art. The only issue in Sony's case was inequitable conduct (lying to the patent office), and the only evidence Sony presented was testimony from an "expert" they paid.
and thats why you go to http://www.myspacegrill.com/ to pimp your myspace.
If it weren't for the fact that it takes so many years for these kinds of suits to make it throught the courts, I'd be inclined to think there was some shadowy force orchestrating all these high-profile patent cases to all make the news at the same time!
Time to dust off the old tin foil hat, I guess.
I...I'm attacking the darkness!
Seriously though, this company isn't *totally* unknown. They designed the crap that goes in Logitech's force feedback stuff. I have a mouse with their stuff in it, and it actually seems fairly clever. It's like you can "feel" the stuff on your screen. It's a little noisy though.
the idea of something vibrating is not what has been patent.
How these particular products vibrates is the patent.
There has yet to be any prior art found on this implementation, and several controller makers have tried.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
There is prior art of vibration for feeback in user input device demonstrated in public forum. Where are all the old Atari then Apple people? Alan are you out there? This reminds me of the xerox graffiti vs palm patent war... I have to imagine that someone demonstrated that Ledeen-Teitelman created a single stroke character recognition, years I mean decades before graffiti.
This is a real bad time for Sony.
Format Wars
Xbox 360 popularity
Rootkitting CD's
PS3 delays
Ipod (yes this is bad for Sony)
Lawsuits from vendors
All this bad publicity surely can't be doing the company any good. At this point in time, the CEO would be sacked at most companies i am aware of, but it's not happening here. you have to wonder if the morale within the company is any good also. I hope their lawyers get paid well.
You may not have enjoyed his work as dirty uncle Ernie on "Family Matters", but there is no denying his contribution to keeping the Black Man down. Truely an American Icon, he will be missed.
Yet another slashdotter who is so brainwashed that s/he can't even make a clear judgment.
You must be on Apple's side, insensitive clod!
perception is reality
Just because certain cases of rumble technology existed, does not mean they used the particular methods that dual shock and xbox controllers use.
Immersion is not a "relatively unkown company". At least not to me. I remember buying logitech mice 5 years ago branded with "immersion touch sense" technology, which had user configurable rollover vibrations.
Again just because "rumble" technology existed beforehand, does not mean there is prior art of this specific method.
Considering microsoft was wise enough to pay up (and MS fights everything they think they should) it suggests sony is just being stupid.
Dual shock has no force feedback features. It just rumbles... Force feedback provides feedback with built in motors that cause you to fight the controller.
Hmmm... Pie...
I'm total done with this patent thing. If someone can't develop something, then they shouldn't be filing patents. It's being used for the wrong reasons.
[%] Cingular Ringtones
Let's not forget that this paid "expert" in quotations is the inventor of said technology. Of course he was paid to invent and develop it. What the hell kind of argument is it to say that because an engineer was paid to do his job his testimony concerning technolgy he invented has no relevance as to how the technology can be used legally?
Despite attempts by numerous big companies to invalidate this patent based on prior art, no one has ever located any meaningful prior art
Sorry, but since when was a patent's validity determined soley by the existence of prior art? Non-obvious is also a requirement.
Sony don't have a "force feed-back" system as I understand it - think the steering wheel controller in the force-feedback steering wheel in Hard Drivin' in the arcades that made it hard to stear if you went of the road - what Sony have is a controller that rumbles a varied amount based on an analogue signal.
Anne Summers have had such controllers for decades.
I'm suprised that the fact that they paid a consoltant to provide evidence in a civil case should count against them as well. Or even be particularly suspicious. If the judge felt that the consultant lied, or deliberately mis-represented the facts, then the judge should say so, and perhaps press for perjury charges (an oath is an oath is an oath). I can't see how he can dismiss his testimony based purely on the fact that he had been paid by Sony because he was an employee.
Of course, if someone provides the patent number then I'll be happy to eat my words if something about it really is more novel than that true force-feedback steering wheel of the 1980s.
The ways of gods are mysteriously indistinguishable from chance.
Havine one unbalanced weight is "obvious", but adding a second is patent-worthy?
*burying face in palms*
Rank my idea: http://www.sinceslicedbread.com/node/531
Xbox360 isn't doing so hot in japan because their barely moving any units there at all. Sony is like a national brand to them so no matter what the hell they charge people will buy it. For example, for big games companies charge almost 2x as much as average games over there. FFXII will be out for about $90 USD in japan.
o w+in+Japan/2100-1043_3-5992548.html
Here's a sample of XBox360 sale data in japan
http://www.craxtion.com/content/view/133/2/
Even the launch was horrid:
http://news.com.com/Study+Xbox+360+sales+start+sl
The xbox360 presence in japan is almost negligible and it's not performing particularily well in the states either. While sales are much better here it's not anywhere near dominating.
Hmmm... Pie...
To a techie hobbyist guy that gets an idea occasionally, the US patent system seems intimidating. Or at least expensive. But then it there's all these people/companies out there patenting every possible iteration of generic things like "video goggles"... gorsh. I dunno.
Hopefully this will be the end of the PS2 controller. Explaining the parts of a computer to nontechiados: "...your PS/2 keyboard. Whaa, I can hook up my playstation controller, too?"
I guess you could call that a double blow.
Or maybe even a dual shock! LOL!! :)
THE HONOUR OF THE KNIGHTS - CC Licensed Sci-Fi Novel
three things came together to do that,
1: It deals with Technology and patents (a lethal combo)
2: It was a US judge (remember they don't understand technology and don't have to)
3: The Judge probably got one of the "rootkit" CD's and is taking it out directly on Sony.
there is also the possible #4: the judge just hates the japanese, but that one is a bit of a stretch.
but back to it being a US court, if the judge had allowed the one who invented the technology to speak Immersion wouldn't have a case any longer and would go out of buisness (in the Judges mind) where as Sony could afford to lose money.
the thing I am wondering though, is why it took Immersion 7 years to file the patent infringment suit, it's not like Sony was trying to hide how the controller worked, anyone who took it apart could see it. If you owned a patent for something and someone came out with a product that featured things your patent (and Product, I say that's how the patent should work) has wouldn't you be just a tad bit curious about it?
exEmplified by during play, this
I had a vibraiting game controller in the late eighties. It was called a pager.
See, I'd give my secret code to some fly hunny; then it'd rumble right before I was about to score!
They even called me a player.
I think the language is similar enough to claim prior art. :)
(FYI for anyone else thinking about picking up this game: Make sure to use a shield in the final encounter or you might play out your days with a permanent chance-on-pee to self inflict fire damage.)
Another overrated modding for a post of mine that hadn't previously been rated, courtesy of my Slashdot nemeses. Can't you guys think of anything original?
Wait, let me guess: -1 Offtopic, right?
You guys are so predictable it's not even funny.
Rank my idea: http://www.sinceslicedbread.com/node/531
You haven't been paying attention to the Enron trial have you? The owners can only be protected up to a point. Being a corporation isn't a blank check to do whatever you want. Contrary to the group think around here.
I wrote about this patent dispute before.
t .php?Cat=&Board=newsthread&Number=309449&page=23&v iew=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1 [macworld.com]
Immersion is making a claim for the principle of linking video to vibrations.
Furthermore making a claim to hold rights to technology that creates different vibrations for different videos eg a crash produces a different vibration to moving over rough ground.
All this technology was seen in Ataris OutRun video machiene 25 years earlier
You can read an article I wrote a while ago at:
http://www.macworld.com/forums/ubbthreads/showfla
The reason Nintendo arnt being pursued is that they got a patent to protect their controler.
Its got nothing to do with the fact Nintendo has just a sinle vibrating motor at the centre. If this was the case how can immersion be going after video title makers also
The reason Sony is being pursued is that by the time they get the patent office to declare the patent invalid it would be too late.
Like last month when RIM had to pay out to NTP even thouh RIM had got the PTO to declare the patents invalid. The judge couldnt consider that the patents were invaid as it was too late.
No, Newton was the PDA. Pippin was the video game system.
[UID-HeinzIntel]
Logitech now makes ps2 controllers that are suspiciously like the real thing ^_^ and they are awesome. They actually carry the PlayStation logo, so I think they are getting paid by sony to continue making the controllers.
No, I am not an English major. My posts are subject to typos and incorrect grammar. Do not expect perfection.
You control Snake.
Snake Fights Pyscho Mantis.
Psycho Mantis takes over the controller and makes it vibrate
So you're fighting against the controller.
I wrote about this patent dispute before.
t .php?Cat=&Board=newsthread&Number=309449&page=23&v iew=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
Immersion is making a claim for the principle of linking video to vibrations.
Furthermore making a claim to hold rights to technology that creates different vibrations for different videos eg a crash produces a different vibration to moving over rough ground.
All this technology was seen in Ataris OutRun video machiene 25 years earlier
You can read an article I wrote a while ago at:
http://www.macworld.com/forums/ubbthreads/showfla
The reason Nintendo arnt being pursued is that they got a patent to protect their controler.
Its got nothing to do with the fact Nintendo has just a sinle vibrating motor at the centre. If this was the case how can immersion be going after video title makers also
The reason Sony is being pursued is that by the time they get the patent office to declare the patent invalid it would be too late.
Like last month when RIM had to pay out to NTP even thouh RIM had got the PTO to declare the patents invalid. The judge couldnt consider that the patents were invaid as it was too late.
Yes you read it correctly, like in software, when the judge will rule that SONY violates this patent (He already did, but it will be appealed), Immersion will go after the owners of PS2 dual shock controllers.
Ho wait.. In the hardware world, it is the producer that are liable for patent infrigments, not the consumer/client/user/owner.
Why is it the case for the sofware patents? If this is not, a major FUD claim of the Dark Side(TM) against OSS just went poof! Or I need to be educated on software patent liabilities.
Regards,
P.S: Sorry for any mistake I made in my post, I am doing my best to spellcheck, grammarcheck and whatnot before click on the shiny button.
assert(expired(knowldege)); core dump
Yeah MS is doing pretty poor in Japan (worse then the Xbox 1 if that's even possible) But they're doing great in the states... they might not have a "dominant" market-share over video games in general but they have 100% market-share of the next-gen (even Japan... there's no competition). Also the fact that you STILL can't just go to a store and buy one, and pre-orders entered before launch STILL haven't been filled in some places in the US and Europe should say something about it's popularity. In the few months it's been out in the US it's already sold more then the Xbox 1 did in it's first year.
Say what you will about Japan but Sony will have an uphill battle in the US if they wait till 07 to launch there.
Collector's Edition
So does this men Nintendo is next? And after that, all companies who ever made pagers or cellphones, and perhaps *gasp* even vibrators?!
I'm sorry, the use of motors with off balance weights for varied tactile feedbacks has been around way too long.
This is just another example of how lacking our patent system is.
Had an absolutely phenominal list of launch titles and a year on the ps2 (might have even been more) along with a promising amount of systems sales. The graphics on the Dreamcast still look comparable to that of many ps2 games today.
The one year headstart, and the "100%" marketshare on nextgen isn't that big a deal as it may seem.
Hmmm... Pie...
Immersion is a small company with less interest in actually developing "touch sensitive" force feedback devices, and more interest in making money in a niche market that simply should not exist. Who the hell would buy such things to warrant the existence of an entire company? Oh wait... maybe game consoles and high-end/low-volume electronics customers would want this stuff. So why weren't they working with MS and Sony to begin with? This looks bad regardless of the light shining on it.
Is the moral of the story that patent law simply sucks or is it even broader in that we have some civic duty to try and get a lot of something for a doing a whole lot of nothing?
Move from a ROTATING mass to a SLIDING mass for feedback. one magnet, alternate currents to change polarity and make the magnet move back and forth, thus creating vibrations in the controller. Oh, shit, I better patent that, QUICK!
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Who to side for?? Help me!! :-(
You shouldn't think for yourself. From now on, either repost what I post, or just look for my posts and reply with "MOD PARENT UP!".
Seriously though, this company isn't *totally* unknown. They designed the crap that goes in Logitech's force feedback stuff. I have a mouse with their stuff in it, and it actually seems fairly clever. It's like you can "feel" the stuff on your screen. It's a little noisy though.
I own an Xbox 360, and I have to say "popularity" isn't a word that springs to mind.
Sales have been low (restricted supply), and the games are nearly all really bad, and they're $60!
360 has been a flop so far. Although I like the hardware by and large. Enjoyable experience overall.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
And this, sir, is the main reason Richard Stallman wants you to stop using the term "Intellectual Property". The laws governing copyrights and patents are as different from each other as they are from the laws governing trademarks.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
How does anyone have a patent on "rumble technology"? How in gods name does that not qualify as past art? I had a light-up, sound emitting, rumbling lazer-gun toy as a kid. I suppose they travelled to the future and stole the technology?
Please. Its a lopsided electric motor. I'm pretty sure Tesla made plenty of those a long time ago.
What a load of utter bollocks. Sorry to be so blunt but it's the only way to describe how utterly wrong you are. Immersion do a lot of business in medical simulation tech where realistic force feedback is absolutely critical and as far as I'm aware they are the world leaders in the field.
Both rumbling and Force Feedback are part of Immersion's patent list. They have patents on lots of different implementations and IIRC were the ones who licensed Force Feedback to Microsoft for those Sidewinder joysticks and wheels.
But Immersion's patents don't cover everything, specifically Nintendo's implementation of rumble is not patented by Immersion because Nintendo patented that first.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
They were working with MS before, Sony and MS just decided to ignore Immersion this time 'round.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
No, we're talking about $82 million. That's a huge number both in absolute terms and as a patent infringement verdict. There are only a handful of verdicts that have been larger.
It's also not clear that the relevant percentage should be total playstation sales rather than controller sales. Under the Fonar and Bose standard, to use the entire market sales as the base for royalties, the infringer must show that the market was caused by the infringing device. There are lots of console controllers of recent vintage that didn't have rumble function -- the wavebird, the original N64 controller, the original PSX controller, the dreamcast controller, etc. Sony wouldn't have lost much sales not including the rumble.
With great power comes great fan noise.
Sorry if I was taking to the hyperbole, but check this out: http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=IMMR They're not very good at much but losing money. Granted their products may be important, I don't think the niche market is enough to support the industry that they're trying to make it. The numbers from Immersion's black book tend to agree. At least within the scope of their current business model. From an engineering standpoint the work they do is increasingly redundant and trivial to accomplish as the relevant technologies in motors, motor control, materials, LCDs, and digital electronics continue to improve. Hence my, and others', general indignation at the fact that innovation cannot be parallel but must be held to some archaically slow IP system via another archaic system that purportedly serves out Justice in a friendly neighborhood near you. I just don't get it. It's not Just and it's not The Right Way(tm).