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Unusual Open Source

Dumitru Erhan writes "The Economist has a special report on open-source. It analyzes the way open-source projects succeed and finds that a rigid, business-like organizational structure is of vital importance to the quality of the final product. It cites Firefox, MySQL and (more recently) Wikipedia as examples of projects that do not simply allow anarchy to rein in, but which have 'real checks and balances, and real leadership taking place'. There is also a discussion of open-source methods being applied to non-software projects." From the article: "Constant self-policing is required to ensure its quality. This lesson was brought home to Wikipedia last December, after a former American newspaper editor lambasted it for an entry about himself that had been written by a prankster. His denunciations spoke for many, who question how something built by the wisdom of crowds can become anything other than mob rule."

262 comments

  1. Sounds like... by Needanewnick · · Score: 5, Insightful
    From the summary:
    His denunciations spoke for many, who question how something built by the wisdom of crowds can become anything other than mob rule


    Isn't that how people get elected?

    Oh, I see what he means now.
    1. Re:Sounds like... by Dr.+Evil · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It actually makes no sense given that there's no single entity responding to the mob. They act as individuals on individual pages.

      Mob rule might be the case if they're deciding on a single issue. But if you can't get a mob to even decide what issue they're deciding upon, then it's just a whole lot of people doing things.

    2. Re:Sounds like... by ackthpt · · Score: 4, Funny
      From the summary:
      His denunciations spoke for many, who question how something built by the wisdom of crowds can become anything other than mob rule
      Isn't that how people get elected?

      No.

      The way people in the american political system get elected, is the parties pick candidates to be picked apart by vultures, then one rigs the election system so they win in pivotal states with large numbers of "electors" who then are supposed to vote for so and so from their districts. In backwards countries, where vile dictators for life, parties labeled as terrorists, political strongmen and their machines all practice it works pretty much the same, but only american leaders are allowed to be critical of how the other countries process works.

      Mob rule would mean people actually pick their candidates themselves and throw all their votes behind them and the one who actually gets the most votes wins.

      Clearly we can't have that, so strong organizations, such as political parties are necessary to ensure we get what we deserve.

      i believe in education -- i'll teach you all a lesson

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    3. Re:Sounds like... by ackthpt · · Score: 5, Funny
      It actually makes no sense given that there's no single entity responding to the mob. They act as individuals on individual pages. Mob rule might be the case if they're deciding on a single issue. But if you can't get a mob to even decide what issue they're deciding upon, then it's just a whole lot of people doing things.

      Ah, but charismatic leaders can guide mobs and once they have enough of them in line, they can direct the mob against those who don't fall into step or question things. I believe Adolf Hitler

      [!Error 53 - Godwin Invoked - Thread terminated]

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    4. Re:Sounds like... by fm6 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Ever read about the writing of the U.S. Constitution? Those guys argued and agonized about how they were going to set up a true democracy that wasn't just mob rule. The didn't exactly do a perfect job, but they did suprisingly well.

      My big gripe with Wikipedia is that it just takes it for granted that everybody wants to work together to create an optimal result. I'm not just talking about pranksters and vandals. I'm talking about people who aren't really interested in collaboration — they have a certain notion of what Wikipedia should be, and they're not interested in anything that contradicts that.

      In any social system, somebody has to have the last word. In a hierachy, it's the folks on top. In a true democracy, it's something resembling a consensus. In mob rule, it's whoever's the biggest bully. Wikipedia seems to combine the worst aspects of all three!

    5. Re:Sounds like... by CarpetShark · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sadly, as much as I like wikipedia and applaud its efforts, it does devolve into mob rule sometimes. Try to write an article on a more intuitive topic, like art or spirituality, and see how easy it is to express the more esoteric aspects of the pursuit. People end up demanding facts and figures for something that can only be explained in terms of human experience.

    6. Re:Sounds like... by I+Like+Pudding · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Isn't that how people get elected?

      Yes.

    7. Re:Sounds like... by Andrew+Kismet · · Score: 1

      Wikipedia is inverse Communism. Communism looks great in theory, and horrible in practice. Wikipedia looks horrible in theory, but in practice, it does work.

      In Soviet Russia, Wikipedia edits You.

      In Wikipedia, In Soviet Russia is editable.

    8. Re:Sounds like... by trilioth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We all contribute to the mob. Why didn't the guy just register and delete it.

    9. Re:Sounds like... by user24 · · Score: 1

      isn't that exactly the problem? that there is no unified front? no 'single entity'?

      for wikipedia, it's perfectly possible (and I would be shocked if it wasn't the case) that -by the nature of group design- there are thousands of contradictions - any time there's an overlap in article content, you're mostly going to have more than one person's opinions, and however objective their intentions, there are going to be difference in approach, knowledge, background, etc.

      Without a consistent approach, like what is starting to happen with wikipedia, and what has happened with open source giants like linux and mysql (and I would add openOffice and a gazillion more), you just get a mess of undirected evolution rather than, erm, intelligent design. (connotations of phrasing unintentional).

      But I would question the implication that from chaos nothing ordered can come; it surely doesn't follow that given good leadership, a good product will ensue. I think the main reason these projects have been successful is yes partly due to the leadership (read: long term vision, unity, community), but also due to the fact that they are inherently good ideas; people *want* to help, and moreover, intelligent and skilled people, working for passion not cash. I think that's the real reason so many open source projects (which have good ideas behind them) take off...

      hmm. talking of how something unfocused can produce nonsense.. well, you just read a great example. :-)

    10. Re:Sounds like... by Frozen+Void · · Score: 1

      Wisdom of the crowd vs Academic Elitism.
      Can you see there bright people in that crowd? Don't think they get marginalized by numbers of morons.Smart people would always find a way to make their voice count.
      As for Wikipedia just use History pages
      and makes your own versions of articles.
      Linking to history pages is easy.Without history wiki wouldn't be as good as it now.

    11. Re:Sounds like... by Ragica · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Couple of potential problems with this point of view.
      • Charismatic manipulators (of marginal intelligence can sometimes use various means of manipulating large numbers of morons in ways that most more thoughtful persons would not stoop to. (This is leaving even more complex issues of proportional representation, and other weirdness elements of elections aside.)
      • "using the history page" requires the target being defamed to know that they have a wikipedia entry. Anyone can go and add an entry about you and you may not know for some time. Someone may cunningly edit your entry, and you may not know for some time.
      • most viewers won't use the history page, even if they did realise its purpose, because it's an extra click. Kind of like microsoft knowing almost everyone is going to use IE even though it sucks ass, just because it's what's in front of them.
      This being said, I love Wikipedia, and use it several times a week. It's a great resource. But it does have some pretty big inherent problems due to its nature. No use in glossing over that fact.
    12. Re:Sounds like... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      People end up demanding facts and figures for something that can only be explained in terms of human experience.

      Since one of their major goals is objectivity, no wonder. Sounds like you've been trying to fit the square peg into the round hole.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    13. Re:Sounds like... by shimage · · Score: 1
      any time there's an overlap in article content, you're mostly going to have more than one person's opinions, and however objective their intentions, there are going to be difference in approach, knowledge, background, etc.


      You don't even need overlap to get problems. I've noticed self-contradicting articles, and articles that mention the same thing multiple times in the same section, etc. Wikipedia is good for some things, bad for others, but you always have to read a little more carefully than you would a normal encyclopedia.

      I fix things when I can't stand the way it is, but I never know when some idiot is going to come around and fuck it up ... or maybe I was the idiot. That's the other thing that's kind of disturbing about wikipedia.
    14. Re:Sounds like... by fm6 · · Score: 1

      That's a patronizing, kneejerk comment. It doesn't respond to any of the reasons I give why Wikipedia doesn't work (or at least doesn't work very well). And it ignore the fact that all my criticisms come from participating in Wikipedia editing.

    15. Re:Sounds like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      People demanding facts and figures be put in an encyclopedia? Surely they've gone too far.

    16. Re:Sounds like... by zojakownith · · Score: 0

      sounds like a perfect slashdot comment then!

      --
      I have bad karma....

      Open source is heavenly, Microsoft is the devil, SCO is going to hell

    17. Re:Sounds like... by rtb61 · · Score: 1
      Wikipedia does what it does excellently, in fact in terms of online encyclopaedias it is head and shoulders and butt and ankles beyond anything else on the net.

      Don't like Wikipedia, build your own, attempt to control it and the copyright fascists will be all over you, each demanding that their accredited entry remains and takes precedence over everybody else's, civil suits to define whose name goes with what bit of writing and who is right and who is wrong.

      As far as I know, you can take all of Wikipedia, transfer it to a controlled edit site and as long as you don't attempt to stomp around the place in copyright jack boots, create an audited entry web encyclopaedia. No claims of ownership of an article just editing acknowledgement and authority based upon prior qualifications.

      No one is really interested in it, universities could do it but the existing faculty is too tightly bound to getting acknowledgement and accreditation for their written works because of the ramifications it has on the future careers (as well as of course publishing revenues).

      A lot of them are bound to the idea that there are no worthwhile entries in wikipedia at all just because none of their friends names are accredited with it and the other infamous line 95% of the stuff on the Internet is junk anyhow (well show me the bright spark that has looked at more that a billion web pages to make that analysis, that everybody else repeats). My spin on the Internet is 95% of it is great, the rest of the noobs just keep looking at the junk 5% because they don't know any better ;-).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    18. Re:Sounds like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People end up demanding facts and figures for something that can only be explained in terms of human experience.

      If it can only be explained in terms of human experience, what are you doing online trying to put it in Wikipedia?

      I assume you're talking about some kind of god by the way. Just FYI, there is no god.

    19. Re:Sounds like... by paeanblack · · Score: 1

      the other infamous line 95% of the stuff on the Internet is junk anyhow (well show me the bright spark that has looked at more that a billion web pages to make that analysis, that everybody else repeats)

      This has nothing to do with the internet specifically and much more to do with the fact that 90% of everything is crap.

      Sturgeon' Law...definitely in the top 10%

    20. Re:Sounds like... by imogthe · · Score: 1

      I can't believe the mods today (Must be the green beer after St.Patty's day). That's not Funny, it's Insightful (And scary).

    21. Re:Sounds like... by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      "It's funny 'cause it's true."

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    22. Re:Sounds like... by bit01 · · Score: 1

      Someone may cunningly edit your entry, and you may not know for some time.

      This is true for the internet in general, not just wikipedia.

      Everybody with a net presence should do a web search on their own name regularly to check.

      ---

      DRM'ed content breaks the copyright bargain, the first sale doctrine and fair use provisions. It should not be possible to copyright DRM'ed content.

    23. Re:Sounds like... by AxelBoldt · · Score: 1
      I fix things when I can't stand the way it is, but I never know when some idiot is going to come around and fuck it up

      Get a Wikipedia account, put the articles you fix on your watchlist, then check your watchlist every couple of months.

    24. Re:Sounds like... by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      What the other guy said... or you can just click on "My contributions". Also use the Talk page to defend your change.

    25. Re:Sounds like... by fm6 · · Score: 1
      First off, I wasn't talking about the quality of the content, I was talking about the broken process that produces it.

      But let's talk about the content. You're the second person in this thread to insist that Wikipedia is "excellent", but neither of you give any evidence to support this assertion. Which I guess is consistent: few contributers to Wikipedia give a shit about documenting their sources.

      There is a lot of good stuff on Wikipedia. There's also a lot of crap. Sure, there's more good stuff than crap, but that's not enough for a serious reference work. That requires that you know that what you're reading is documented properly. Pick a random article, and you don't know whether the content is a summary of various respected books, or something somebody saw on TV. The best you can say is that Wikipedia is fun for browsing — if the occassional muddled prose and misstated fact doesn't turn your stomach.

      Finally, spare us the "if you think you can do better" copout. Maybe I could, maybe I couldn't — give me a $700,000 annual budget and I'd certainly give it a good try. But my abilities aren't the issue. Consumers have a right to complain about produceers. You don't have to be a chicken to complain about rotten eggs.

    26. Re:Sounds like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) Parties generally do not pick candidates as much as candidates self-select, especially in the federal system. The time of party-ruled electoral systems passed during the early-mid 20th century -- a better example of a country operating on a party selection model would be the UK.

      2) I honestly can't recall a single incident of the national electoral system having been rigged in the 200+ years of election history. I'd be delighted to hear of an actual example.

    27. Re:Sounds like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quite right, this is gang rule, gangs of people interested in either shaming or pontificating someone or something rule the article, it'd be mob rule if Wikipedia was one single page containing everything, not a site.

    28. Re:Sounds like... by Andrew+Kismet · · Score: 1

      I was going for humourous, not patronising, but tone is usually misinterpreted on the internet... and I had no way of knowing that you are an active participant, as am I, but I find the horrible mess behind the scenes in the "talk" subarticles actually leads to a suprisingly good number of articles. Yes, the aspect of the highest mods leads to a hellish hierarchy. Yes, there's a small voting system to get user concensus... and yes, the mob rule aspect, such as calling in forum members to swarm-edit, does exist. But the final articles, as we all know, tend to be reasonably high-quality, full of information, and more-or-less reliable.

      But all that's besides the point, since I was trying to make a joke in the first place. Sorry. ^^

    29. Re:Sounds like... by rtb61 · · Score: 1
      Excellent - far more people use it than any other online reference (and we are talking orders of magnitude), far more people contribute to it than any other online reference (and we are talking orders of magnitude), far more people talk about it than any other online reference, I would consider that based upon fit for purpose, the interpretation of excellence could be made.

      Slashdot is about opinions, I like Wikipedia, I use it, I find it exceptionally useful, I recommend it, hence I find it excellent. My gratitude to the people that create it, both the founders and the contributors (a even a bit for the sponsors).

      As for a quantified analysis of the quality of more than a million articles, the only people who would be willing to spend the money necessary to do it, would be the ones who would most profit by it's demise, and everybody knows the value of paid for junk science. So there is no other way of valuing it outside the opinion of it's users, contributors and sponsors (if it sucked, people would not contribute to it, or make use of it).

      Of course it's biggest detractors are the people whose income it most threatens, greed before the sharing of knowledge :-(.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    30. Re:Sounds like... by Shaklee39 · · Score: 0

      Wow, you are one stupid fucking hippie. No wonder why they reject your crap.

    31. Re:Sounds like... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      I honestly can't recall a single incident of the national electoral system having been rigged in the 200+ years of election history.

      See ? Censorship in action. But don't worry, USA has plenty of oil as well as weapons of mass destruction, so I'm sure that some First World country will liberate you soon enough.

      I wonder what Bush will look like in court with a beard...

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    32. Re:Sounds like... by fm6 · · Score: 1
      ... I was going for humourous, not patronising, but tone is usually misinterpreted on the internet...
      And elsewhere. People don't usually intend to sound patronizing.
      ...I had no way of knowing that you are an active participant...
      The fact that I was talking about collaboration issues didn't give you a clue?
      But the final articles, as we all know, tend to be reasonably high-quality, full of information, and more-or-less reliable.
      "Tend to be"? "More-or-less"? This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, an online reference. That means hitting a certain level of quality consistently, not just most of the time.

      Now, when I participated in Wikipedia, I had some hopes of addressing these issues. But most contributors don't give a shit, and never will until somebody says, "Cite your sources, or forget about contributing." That means a fundamental change in the way Wikipedia works. Which was the whole point of my criticism.

    33. Re:Sounds like... by fm6 · · Score: 1
      I would consider that based upon fit for purpose, the interpretation of excellence could be made.
      "Fit for purpose"? It's a fucking reference. How can a reference be "fit for purpose" if you the reliability of its material is totally unpredictable? Popularity has nothing to do with that. Next you'll be telling me Brittany Spears is the greatest singer in human history!
    34. Re:Sounds like... by rtb61 · · Score: 1
      It's a light quick reference on a huge number of topics, making an ideal first point of reference, especially as there are often links to other more detail repositories of online information.

      To what purposes are you attempting to put Wikipedia to, that you would define it as unfit for purpose. You willingness to impugn the reputation of all the Wikipedia contributors is oddly disturbing, are all those contributors also worthless to share knowledge because they don't fit your personal desired mold of who is unfit or fit to contribute to human knowledge.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    35. Re:Sounds like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What I realy enjoy is the fact that I gave two helpful points to inform the earlier poster; points which might have sparked a little political science / history discussion. All I get is a jackass who (at the threat of an actual rational consideration of all the BS that is constantly thrown around as 'facts') responds with ... a bit more BS.

      Thanks for that one buddy. You say more about yourself than anything else there.

    36. Re:Sounds like... by fm6 · · Score: 1

      They're a "light reference"? There's a word for that!

    37. Re:Sounds like... by CarpetShark · · Score: 1
      If it can only be explained in terms of human experience, what are you doing online trying to put it in Wikipedia?


      No, I'm not talking about god. I agree that there isn't one actually. But, take a look at the wikipedia page for compassion, for instance, and ask yourself if a couple of paragraphs is really doing the subject justice, given that some people have spent based their lives upon it. There's more to life than facts and figures. As I said, I applaud Wikipedia's goals, but only half of our brain works on logic. Without the other side, I believe they're missing a great deal of the wealth of human knowledge and understanding.
  2. Follow up by 2.7182 · · Score: 1

    Sometime in the late 1990s Forbes wrote a similiar article about GNU. You can imagine their conclusions.

    1. Re:Follow up by dusik · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Many people still don't take the GNU project seriously. People often find it easier to keep their eyes shut than to have to change their beliefs in light of what they see.

      I've shown people incredible stuff on my (Linux) PC, but often when they find out it doesn't run on Windows they continue to pretend it doesn't exist.

    2. Re:Follow up by DarkClown · · Score: 1

      you could probably reprint that forbes articles and get the gist of this one - am I the only one whose eyes glazed over and thought 'open source explained for executives 101, take 3,000,000' at about 4 paragraphs in?

    3. Re:Follow up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most likely, this is because they have some pre-conceived notion in their head that Linux is...

      I am still trying to figure out what they think Linux is. One person said that she believed that Windows was a "standard" -- I guess she thought that using Linux meant not adhering to standards...

    4. Re:Follow up by bigman2003 · · Score: 1

      Standards are a difficult thing to understand....

      An arbitrary organization can make up arbitrary rules and call them 'standards'.

      A huge number of people can agree upon something, without the arbitrary organization giving it creedence, and it is called a 'de-facto standard'.

      Different people are impressed by different types of standards. Not surprisingly, most people adhere to the de-facto standards (which is pretty much the definition) and don't realize it. They don't care- they only want stuff to work.

      'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.

      --
      No reason to lie.
    5. Re:Follow up by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      Many people in CompSci don't take GNU seriously.

      What is there to consider ?

      The only thing they have really innovated is the GPL, the rest is (poor) knock offs of other people's ideas.

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    6. Re:Follow up by khallow · · Score: 1

      Well, they have a nice, low cost software development system built around gcc, emacs, gnome, and gimp. Some of these easily qualify as cheap knockoffs, but still are innovations since they're all heavily used products.

    7. Re:Follow up by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 1

      Having not studied Computer Science, could you give examples of cheap knock-offs produced by the GNU project?

      Do you mean they take CompSci theory/research and implement it in their own products? Or do you mean they "knock-off" implementations of technology found in other projects products?

      Are there not examples of similar lack of innovation by Microsoft, Oracle or any other major software vendor? Or does the Computer Science crowd not take them seriously either? Please explain...

    8. Re:Follow up by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      gawk
      gmake
      gcc
      bc
      bison
      ed
      gcron
      gnome

      here's some more :

      http://directory.fsf.org/GNU/

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    9. Re:Follow up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, the programs that you list were made because of the need for a working Unix system.
      Without them, GNU would just not be Unix. And who says gcc is not innovative? Many people need
      these programs because they are used to this toolchain.

    10. Re:Follow up by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      So, where is the innovation ?

      "People use it" is not innovation.

      GNU/Linux has set back computing 20 years.

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
  3. Leadership by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Wikipedia is what it is today because of the large amount of people who care about it enough to fix vandalism. Not necessarily because of a centralized leadership.

    Open source is successful because of the large number of people who have an interst in its success. Centralizing leadership might be helpful in some way, but I don't see it as the most important thing.

    1. Re:Leadership by peterfa · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I vandalize Wikipedia.

    2. Re:Leadership by Jodiamonds · · Score: 1

      It is likely that real leadership is necessary to achieve a certain level of success, but hardly sufficient (and it's subjective what is most important, of course). Smaller projects automatically have leadership simply by having few enough cooks adding to the broth.

      --
      - Jodiamonds
    3. Re:Leadership by baadger · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Open source is successful because of the large number of people who have an interst in its success. Centralizing leadership might be helpful in some way, but I don't see it as the most important thing.

      Well personally I would say having a large number of people with invested interest in a project's success leads to good leadership and visa versa, the two aren't exclusive.

      Somewhere there is always money, just look at the recent articles about Mozilla making a mint off Firefox, Redhat's contribution to Linux, or how the money put behind Ubuntu pushed it to the top of the distribution list.

      Successful open source project's don't last long unless they are picked up by business interest or sponsorship.

    4. Re:Leadership by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 5, Funny

      Funny, I thought Wikipedia is what it is today because of the frighteningly large number of people willing to explain Super Mario Bros. continuity or the mechanics of Klingon spaceships.

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
    5. Re:Leadership by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Define vandalism.

      In Wikipedia the most active editor wins. Whether they're right or wrong.

      I've heard a couple of horror stories of the admins at wikipedia forcing agendas too (things like refusing very minor edits because they mention things they disagree with, and even blocking page names for things that they disagree with)*

      It's an interesting variation on the blog, but I wouldn't call it 'successful' in any way. Slashdot fanboys like it, that's all.

      * And the person who told me this is trustworthy, and definately an expert in their field having 20+ years experience. The eventually managed to get some edits in but only after appealing to other admins who removed the page blocks - 6 months later.

    6. Re:Leadership by bcrowell · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The article's analogy between WP and OSS isn't a very good one. For one thing, the goal of a programmer is typically to write the code correctly, so that it doesn't have to be rewritten over and over again; in WP, no matter how good an article gets, edits will keep on happening. That's because there's a fairly clear criterion for whether code needs to be messed with (did somebody discover a bug?), but no clear criterion for whether a WP article needs to be messed with. Knowledgeable, highly qualified people on WP tend to work on an article until they're happy with it, and then stop. After that, the people who edit it day after day are different people -- people who have an agenda to push, but aren't experts.

      Another difference between WP and software is that with software, you write however many lines of code you need to write to get the program to do what it's supposed to do, and after that, you'd prefer not to increase the number of lines. In WP, people seem to have a feeling that growth is always good. Now that there's an article on essentially every major topic that you'd expect to find in a print encyclopedia, all that's left is to write new articles on topics that are inherently unencyclopedic: vanity articles, articles about your high school, articles about your friend who used to have a band in high school,... WP recently had a front-page article about shoe polish, which was actually a pretty well written article, but for example articles like this one and this one are the kind that are currently being discussed seriously for featured article status.

      Another difference between software and WP is that programmers don't spend a lot of time checking their CVS logs to see if someone they've never met has inserted a dangling pointer bug in their code. A huge amount of WP editors' time these days is spent just watching over their pet articles and trying to keep entropy from having its way. I worked on WP for years, and did thousands of edits, but I've given up now. The project hit its maximum level of quality a year or two ago, and the trend now is for it to get worse not better. It's also not fun anymore.

    7. Re:Leadership by rblum · · Score: 2
      For one thing, the goal of a programmer is typically to write the code correctly, so that it doesn't have to be rewritten over and over again;


      I would posit that this theoretical programmer hasn't spent a lot of time on real-life projects.... There is no perfect code. Never. Just undiscovered requirements.

    8. Re:Leadership by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "I've heard a couple of horror stories of the admins at wikipedia forcing agendas too (things like refusing very minor edits because they mention things they disagree with, and even blocking page names for things that they disagree with)*"

      That's not specific to Wikipedia at all, in fact, if you write for , the editor-in-chief can ORDER you do change things he disagrees with and there is nil you can do about it.

      There was is and always will be corruption, bad faith and plain old evil, that's part of being human. That doesn't make some human enterprise, as a whole, bad per se.

    9. Re:Leadership by Frozen+Void · · Score: 1

      Thats what i love about wikipedia it written by the people who know the subject and willing to share knowledge they had on it.I don't like the current policies of it though(i.e. vandalism,registration,reverts,userpages),but hopefully it will improve(or get split into independent subject wiki portals,linked into one search engine).

    10. Re:Leadership by Frozen+Void · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I see..have you considered that wikipedia software may be improved?
      Add moderation(users vote on article -1 flamebait),article voting(for best version),click stats(view per day,week,month,country,etc).
      Soem other wikis will have these features and rule the wikisphere.
      Wikipedia is in current form is flawed and the policies aren't attractive in any sense.
      I stopped posting after they required registration for new articles,
      deleted what i wrote in other articles(with a snobby excuse).
      I improve wiki pages ocassionaly but i won't dedicate a spare minute for it.
      The project going wrong way.

    11. Re:Leadership by ClamIAm · · Score: 1
      This is solely a side-effect of the current demographics of Net usership. Those who contribute to Wikipedia are most likely techier/geekier than the average person, and I mean this in the sense that they get excited about cool new toys (and videogames/sci-fi attract a large number of these types). They already "get it" in regards to the bazaar method.

      On the other hand, there are a lot of people who could be making valuable contributions to a project like this, but don't. They may not have access, or they may not have heard about it. Then there are many who don't like using computers except for the bare minimum they have to. Some are indignant and think such a project is a waste of time. Some don't have time.

      As computer/net usership continues to become a more mainstream thing, I think we'll see the balance of topics on Wikipedia become better.

    12. Re:Leadership by cerberusss · · Score: 1
      frighteningly large number of people willing to explain Super Mario Bros. continuity or the mechanics of Klingon spaceships.

      I never looked up those. I did look up stuff for my study and it's all there: genetic algorithms, chaos theory, Sierpinsky triangle, Hilbert space, et cetera.

      So no need to be pedantic.

      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
    13. Re:Leadership by pilkul · · Score: 1
      As computer/net usership continues to become a more mainstream thing, I think we'll see the balance of topics on Wikipedia become better.

      Honestly, it's already quite balanced. Any non-nerd topic I can think of has an article, often a very long one. I get the impression people who complain about this kind of thing are typically nerds themselves, and only search for those topics! (Penny-Arcade's recent criticism of Wikipedia comes to mind...) I can't remember reading any article in the mainstream media criticizing Wikipedia for too much fancruft.

    14. Re:Leadership by cheesybagel · · Score: 1
      Successful open source project's don't last long unless they are picked up by business interest or sponsorship.

      DosBox? eMule?

    15. Re:Leadership by Eljas · · Score: 1

      Super Mario Bros. is nothing, try searchin for various Mortal Combat characters in Wikipedia.

    16. Re:Leadership by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oh, interesting! I've edited some of those very articles and continue to watch them. Some notes:

      (a) they sometimes do contain errors--I've been fixing all the ones I find, but I'm sure there are others. (remember the recent study from the journal nature, though, that found a lot of errors in britannica!)

      (b) some of those have active edit wars. In "chaos theory" one guy keeps trying to insert a link to his own crackpot thing called "bios," for instance.

      (c) despite the above, the quality is mostly high. and while there are crackpots involved, to my certain knowledge there are also at least two people who have Ph.D.s in math writing them.

    17. Re:Leadership by pilkul · · Score: 1
      * And the person who told me this is trustworthy, and definately an expert in their field having 20+ years experience.

      In my experience, Wikipedia admins don't act like you said. Unless you can show me the diffs, I don't believe you. I surmise that what probably happened is that the person who told you this was acting like a dick and refusing to justify their changes on the discussion page. There are policy rules (like no more than 3 reverts in 24 hours) that if you violate you get blocked even if your edits happen to be correct.

    18. Re:Leadership by cerberusss · · Score: 1

      Well, thanks for some great articles. I have to say though, that a small part of those articles really read like a reference. The articles then often miss a paragraph or two describing the subject more intuitively. For the rest, great work.

      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
    19. Re:Leadership by Slithe · · Score: 1

      The name is Mortal Kombat, n00b! Can't you get anything right. STFU!

      NOTE: The preceding lines are intended as a parody of hardcore geekdom, and it is not intended as a serious criticism of the Parent.

      --
      ---- "XML is like violence. If it doesn't fix the problem, you aren't using enough."
  4. Well of course by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1

    Of course projects with strict organisation do well. It isn't very easy to finish making something when you have developers leaving without notice for extended periods of time. Nor does it work to have 1/3 of the development staff having no clue as to what they're supposed to be doing at the time.

    --
    -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
  5. Lack of imagination by dusik · · Score: 1

    >> "His denunciations spoke for many, who question how something built by the wisdom of crowds can become anything other than mob rule."

    Perhaps they will just have to wait and see...

    Lack of imagination is not a convincing argument. I'd actually like to hear a convincing argument as to what, precisely, invariably prevents such a success.

  6. Check out Groklaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    PJ over at Groklaw http://www.groklaw.net/ has this story.

    The reporter interviewed her. She has his questions and her answers. He obviouly ignored what she told him and printed a story full of factual innacuracies.

    This is bad, bad reporting. Do I still trust the Economist? Not much.

    1. Re:Check out Groklaw by tabdelgawad · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't understand Groklaw's beef. She (PJ) was asked two questions. Her first answer was one of the main points of the article: hierarchy is an integral part of successful open source development. Her second answer was a dodge: "You think Wikipedia is bad? The MSM is worse!". As for the factual inaccuracies, what exactly were they? The fact that the author didn't get the "groklaw-approved" exact wording right for telling us SCO is suing IBM, DaimlerChrysler and Autozone? Give me a break.

      Perhaps I'm biased against Groklaw. Sometimes I can't take the world-weary, sighing, 'know all the answers', 'the rest of the world is idiotic' tone of the postings there. I'm sure I'll be punished accordingly by groklaw fans with mod points, but what use is good Karma if you can't cash it in once in a while? :)

      --
      Imposing Libertarian views on everyone online since 1992.
    2. Re:Check out Groklaw by Jason+Earl · · Score: 1

      I agree completely. I generally find PJ to be thoughtful and intelligent, but after reading and re-reading both the Economist article and PJ's response I can only assume that PJ needs to get some sleep or something. The Economist article was great. PJ's response, not so good.

    3. Re:Check out Groklaw by sgtrock · · Score: 0, Redundant

      I don't understand Groklaw's beef.

      OK. Hopefully I can help fill in the blanks. :)

      She (PJ) was asked two questions. Her first answer was one of the main points of the article: hierarchy is an integral part of successful open source development.

      The tone of the Economist's article was that this meant that OSS had failed somehow because they had to be organized the same way that businesses are organized:

      However, it is unclear how innovative and sustainable open source can ultimately be. The open-source method has vulnerabilities that must be overcome if it is to live up to its promise. For example, it lacks ways of ensuring quality and it is still working out better ways to handle intellectual property.

      But the biggest worry is that the great benefit of the open-source approach is also its great undoing. Its advantage is that anyone can contribute; the drawback is that sometimes just about anyone does. This leaves projects open to abuse, either by well-meaning dilettantes or intentional disrupters. Constant self-policing is required to ensure its quality.

      Clearly, the writer had never read Producing Open Source Software:How to Run a Sucessful Free Software Project. The book does a fine job of explaining that yes, some projects do attempt to run as some sort of anarchistic society. Most if not all of those projects fail. People are still people, after all. They still need a community with a strong leadership in order to succeed at any long term project. Why did the writer not know this? Why the assumption that this meant OSS had failed?

      As for the factual inaccuracies, what exactly were they? The fact that the author didn't get the "groklaw-approved" exact wording right for telling us SCO is suing IBM, DaimlerChrysler and Autozone?

      Oh, come on! You're kidding, right? Here's what the Economist article said:

      But more troubling is copyright: if the code comes from many authors, who really owns it? This issue took centre stage in 2003, when a company called SCO sued users of Linux, including IBM and DaimlerChrysler, saying that portions of the code infringed its copyrights. The lines of programming code upon which SCO based its claims had changed owners through acquisitions over time; at some point they were added into Linux.

      To sceptics, the suit seems designed to thwart the growth of Linux by spreading unease over open source in corporate boardrooms--a perception fuelled by Microsoft's involvement with SCO. The software giant went out of its way to connect SCO with a private-equity fund that helped finance the lawsuits, and it paid the firm many millions to license the code. Fittingly, Microsoft indemnifies its customers against just this sort of intellectual-property suit--something that open-source products are only starting to do.

      For the moment, users of Linux say that SCO-like worries have not affected their adoption of open-source software. But they probably would be leery if, over time, the code could not be vouched for. In response, big open-source projects such as Linux, Apache and Mozilla have implemented rigid procedures so that they can attest to the origins of the code. In other words, the openness of open source does not necessarily mean it is anonymous. Strikingly, even more monitoring of operations is required in open source than in other sorts of businesses.

      Here's what PJ said in response:

      Heh heh. Not exactly. IBM wasn't sued for using Linux. It was sued for contributing code to Linux. SCO mainly is suing IBM by means of a theory of contract, as best as anyone can make out, a ladder theory by which somehow the contract can be interpreted in a novel way so that any code IBM writes, if it ever touches UNIX SystemV, or

  7. The kernel? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Regardless of the resier4 and other fiascos, does the kernel not serve as an example of a sound organizational structure? Linus is kinda relevant to Linux, I contend.

    1. Re:The kernel? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure.

      "The Economist" likes dictatorieal projects because they can contact the leaders and with a small fee (compared to what the lobbies have) control the project. Such a project is mozilla. Do you think mozilla is open source? The "leaders" will not accept your patches unless they are bug fixes, you ping 32 times, beg and kiss their anus. And if the lobby wants mozilla to not block ads, it will contact the "leader", give him 10000$, pretent that this is a "google feature in mozilla" thing (because google is good) and you'll have ads. While if there was no central leadership, this would not be possible because they would have to pay off too many people, and some wouldn't accept at all.

  8. Summary gets anarchism wrong by HooliganIntellectual · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "It cites Firefox, MySQL and (more recently) Wikipedia as examples of projects that do not simply allow anarchy to rein in..."

    As an anarchist geek, let me point out that this is a wrong use of the word "anarchy." Anarchism is a political philosophy that is FOR organization. Many people have described Wikipedia as an example of "anarchism in action" and they aren't misusing the word instead of using "chaos." The free software/open source (FOSS) movement is another example of anarchism in action and includes many actual anarchists working on various projects.

    Find out more about anarchism at http://www.infoshop.org/ (where half of the visitors are using Firefox and other open source browsers)

    1. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by danaan · · Score: 1

      "As an anarchist geek, let me point out that this is a wrong use of the word "anarchy."" It might be incorrect if they used the Capital "A" Anarchy, but a dictionary definition of "anarchy" includes: "a state of disorder due to absense or nonrecognition of authority" which seems to work just fine.

    2. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by Arker · · Score: 1

      The trouble with dictionaries these days is they've completely abdicated their responsibility and gone to a role of simply reflecting usage. So when a word is often misused, the misuse winds up being legitimised by the dictionary entries. Thus, they've really made themselves irrelevant, for the most part.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    3. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 3, Informative

      From Wikipedia:

      "Anarchism as a political philosophy, is the belief that rulers, governments, and hierarchal social relationships are unnecessary and should be abolished, although there are differing interpretations of what this means."

      Sounds like another one of those -isms that people have adopted and modified from its true original meaning to make themselves feel different, like Satanism. Anarchy means chaos and lack of organization. Oxford says "a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority."

      "ORIGIN mid 16th cent.: via medieval Latin from Greek anarkhia, from anarkhos, from an- 'without' + arkhos 'chief, ruler.'"

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
    4. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by tobiasly · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Someone seriously needs to fix that site's FAQ. I honestly tried to figure out what "anarchism" means but instead left with a splitting headache.

      If I were trying to make a FAQ as unreadable as possible, here are some techniques I would use:

      • Make the text as tiny as possible.
      • Make the onhover event for each paragraph set its text to be bold and bright blue. This has the added bonus of making all other text on the page jump around constantly.
      • Make each FAQ entry about a dozen paragraphs long, and filled with alternating italic and bold text and plenty of cross-references thrown in for good measure.

      Seriously, the entire page screams "go away". Was this website developed via anarchy?

    5. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's because language and therefore definitions reflect usage. Dictionaries are hardly "irrelevant" just because they contain common definitions you have some anal disagreement with society over.

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
    6. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by dominion · · Score: 0

      Sounds like another one of those -isms that people have adopted and modified from its true original meaning to make themselves feel different, like Satanism.

      Except that anarchism, as a philosophy, has a serious theoretical basis in the works of Kropotkin, Bakunin, Proudhon, etc, which date back centuries.

      Sorry, your Oxford dictionary is the definition that has been modified from its true original meaning.

    7. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by try_anything · · Score: 1

      As a geek of some kind or another, let me point out that the coining of the word "anarchism" did not invalidate the existing usage of "anarchy" any more than the coining of "libertarianism" changed the meaning of "liberty."

    8. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by Haeleth · · Score: 4, Informative

      Except that anarchism, as a philosophy, has a serious theoretical basis in the works of Kropotkin, Bakunin, Proudhon, etc, which date back centuries.

      Sorry, your Oxford dictionary is the definition that has been modified from its true original meaning.


      Sorry, but you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

      Kropotkin was born in 1842, Bakunin in 1814, and Proudhon in 1809, right? Well, the OED provides citations for "anarchy" in the sense of "lawlessness" dating back to 1539, and for "anarchy" in the sense of "moral or intellectual disorder" dating back to 1656.

      If we assume that words have such a thing as a "true original meaning", then I would be inclined to say that the way the word was used in 1539 (and is still most commonly used today) is more likely to be the "true original meaning" than the way the word was used by a handful of philosphers in the 1850s. Unless you're about to propose that they invented the time machine as well?

    9. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by weierstrass · · Score: 2, Funny

      This is because dictionaries are no longer written by experts but by internet anarchists.

      It's a plot by the chinese communist party to make americans stupid.

      --
      my password really is 'stinkypants'
    10. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by Haeleth · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The trouble with dictionaries these days is they've completely abdicated their responsibility and gone to a role of simply reflecting usage. So when a word is often misused, the misuse winds up being legitimised by the dictionary entries.

      What "responsibility"? What "misuse"? A word cannot be "often misused" - if it's often used a certain way, then that is how it is used, and it is the fact of the usage that legitimises its inclusion in dictionaries, not the other way round!

      As the poet wrote:
      licuit semperque licebit
      signatum praesente nota producere nomen
      . . .
      multa renascentur quae iam cecidere cadentque
      quae nunc sunt in honore vocabula si volet usus
      quem penes arbitrium est et ius et norma loquendi
      ...in other words, language changes, language is supposed to change, and the only "authority" that controls it and determines what is right and what is wrong is popular usage.

      I can't believe that people today, in this age of progress and enlightenment, more than two thousand years after Horace wrote the words above (and he certainly wasn't the first person to make this observation), are still trying to pretend that there is some kind of objective right or wrong to language that can be fixed in stone and preserved for ever.
    11. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by bcrowell · · Score: 1

      Just to amplify on the parent's post, "-arch" is a Greek root meaning "ruler." So anarchy doesn't mean lack of organization, it means lack of rulers. Another way of putting it is that anarchists are against all forms of coercion, and they consider the state and private property to be coercive institutions. (If you only agree about the state, not property, then you're a libertarian.)

    12. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by bcrowell · · Score: 1
      There are educated writers and uneducated writers, good writers and bad writers. If 9 out of 10 slashdotters write "it's" when they should write "its," that doesn't mean the distinction has suddenly become irrelevant. If Hemingway and Faulkner and Fitzgerald had all started writing "it's" for the possessive, then it would have been time to change.

      Certain fields also have their own specialized technical terminology. Anarchism is a specialized term used by historians, political scientists, etc. They need the term to have a definite meaning so that they can express their ideas with precision. A machinist can't use "taps" and "threads" interchangeably. As a physicist, I don't care if most people don't understand the distinction between voltage and current -- that doesn't mean they've become synonyms.

    13. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Find me a dictionary definition of "anarchism" that predates Proudhon.

    14. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by dudeX · · Score: 1

      This is one battle that won't be won. Even Noam Chomsky doesn't fight to make the distinction known...
      It's like cracker vs. hacker.

      But for those interested, anomie is lawlessness and chaos, compared to anarchy which is the lack of hierachical structure.

    15. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by routerguy666 · · Score: 1
      Uhhh, yeah

      anarchy Pronunciation Key (nr-k) n. pl. anarchies

      1. Absence of any form of political authority.
      2. Political disorder and confusion.
      3. Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose.

    16. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by Frozen+Void · · Score: 1

      Lets me explain a bit:
      The word is token[abc]
      which is attributed to meaning[data]
      when you change/create tokens
      you assign the new meanings.
      Meaning can't change on its own(the data whch had a token). You on the other hand have freedom to make token point to another data block.
      If two parties disagree over which data block is right,we need a new token.
      I suggest Libertianism? hmm

    17. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point is that our theory of anarchy is peaceful and productive, quite the opposite of what any government in its right mind would teach you.

    18. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by Frozen+Void · · Score: 1

      No one prevents you from disabling styles, javascript and all those nice features.Learn to use your web browser.
      Define default fonts,colors,CSS and forget about bad pages.If i ever wanted to see some site in all its glory and gimmicks I will load it on Firefox(which is a rare event).
      I still use an old version of Opera,
      just becuase i like it more then v8.0.

    19. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by BlindIdiotGod · · Score: 1

      My take on the subject: The ongoing debate here seems to have more to do with the definition of "organization" than the definition of "anarchy". I think everyone here (hopefully) will agree that by "anarchy" we mean "rulers, governments, and hierarchal social relationships are unnecessary and should be abolished" (from the Wikipedia quote). When the parent said "anarchism is FOR organization," I'll venture to guess he meant that he was trying to say, "anarchism is FOR (a state of social harmony reached by abolishing the hierarchial structure backed by coercion and embracing a society based on mutual, voluntary agreements). It's an easy to misinterpret this as "anarchism is FOR (hierarchy)". (parenthesized words above are of my own invention)

    20. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anarchism is a political philosophy that is FOR organization.

      I'm sure that President McKinley would be gratified to know that his murderer was acting on behalf of "organization".

    21. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by Frozen+Void · · Score: 1

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism
      Anarcho-capitalism comes to mind..
      "(If you only agree about the state, not property, then you're a libertarian.)" is a bit simplified (wiki article):
      Most libertarians support deregulation and free trade because they believe that people should be able to start and grow businesses, manufacture, transport, trade, buy, and sell with little interference from the government. Some may support efforts to limit private monopolies.

    22. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by Tony-A · · Score: 1

      quite the opposite of what any government in its right mind would teach you.

      The subtle ways in which language influences our thinking.
      There is a certain amount of emotional baggage that goes along with the terminology.

      The question is if anarchy is or can be peaceful and productive.
      The OED definition doesn't quite say impossible, but it gives a pretty strong hint.

    23. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by poopdeville · · Score: 1
      As a physicist, I don't care if most people don't understand the distinction between voltage and current -- that doesn't mean they've become synonyms.

      Consider "heat" and "electricity" -- In a technical context, they are not related (at least not in any way relevant to this discussion). But there are many other contexts where "hot" and "electric" are synonyms.

      The symbols made up from an h, o, t, and e, l, e, c, t, r, i, c can stand for different things in different contexts, and none of them are "more right" than any other.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    24. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      That's not a bad idea, but (IMHO) the term "libertarian" (like "anarchy") has too many possible definitions for this purpose. Some people use it as a synonym for "anarchism", others (like the Libertarian Party) place it closer to the minarchist philosophy. Perhaps the term "voluntaryism" would serve? As far as I know it only has the one meaning: "Voluntaryism is the doctrine that relations among people should be by mutual consent, or not at all."[1] The term was chosen specifically to fit the general idea behind "anarchism" without implying chaos as well.

      [1] Fundamentals of Voluntaryism

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    25. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by cozziewozzie · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but you are wrong.

      "Anarchy" is not a word from 16th century. In fact, it was first used by Sophocles' character Antigone.

      In this context, it was used as an act of disobedience against an injust government, which prohibited the burial of her brother.

      In this sense, it is not representative of chaos and disorder, but a morality and consciousness outside of worldly laws.

      Much like anarchism, the political theory. An-archos = without rule.

    26. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by HooliganIntellectual · · Score: 1

      Yes, you are right about anarchy being about a different form of organization, not just any kind of organization. And as usual, the Slashdot fanboys have missed the point about the use of the word "anarchy." Yes, dictionaries define anarchy as being synonymous with "chaos," but that association was created by a massive historical effort by the authorities and the media to confuse the public about the meaning of the word "anarchy." Anarchism and anarchy are about different forms of social organization, not about "chaos." The English language is very flexible about using words to mean many different things, so even us anarchists have to live with the misuse of "anarchy" to mean chaos. But the reason why I bring this up here is that the word was misused in the context of the free software movement and Wikipedia, which have both been described as examples of "anarchy in action." In the correct political sense. More anarchy would be a positive development for Wikipedia.

    27. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by khallow · · Score: 1
      That wasn't English so technically it doesn't count. English routinely adopts words from other languages and while in the process perverting the meaning of the word. My wild guess is that the old Greek lore had started to be redistributed throughout Europe during this time. Perhaps some educated clergy or bureaucrat felt the need to come up with a fancy word for lawlessness.

      Second, there's really no point to discussing the "true meaning" of a word. The meaning of words shift with time and there's little point to claiming some meaning at a particular time is more "true" than another. As I see it, a small minority is trying to remove a negative connotation from "anarchy" that has been in use for centuries and more relevantly is in wide use today. Given that something needs to describe lawlessness and social disorder, etc, "anarchy" seems to work just fine. I see no good reason to join the small effort to stop the tide.

    28. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or you could expect the author of the page to do their job and make it look nice and be readable. You shouldn't have to make changes in your browser to make it readable, the critism is valid.

    29. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you'll agree with this movie review from Infoshop:

      Anarchists: This Friday marks the beginning of our most important opportunity in decades to communicate with millions about the possibility of a world without capitalism or coercion.

      a possibility for a world w/o private ownership of property? Uh huh. The first tyrant that comes around takes all your stuff and you can't really do anything about it.

    30. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by cozziewozzie · · Score: 1

      First of all, anarchy IS a Greek word.

      Also, anarchy has always been accepted as meaning "without rule". By millions of people (check the Spanish Revolution, the Makhnovschina) and all self-described anarchists, who actually came up with the word "anarchism" denoting a political theory.

      There is a word meaning "chaos, lawlessness". It is anomie. Use that one instead of trying to rewrite 2500 years of history and siding with the less educated people who have never heard of Proudhon, Sophocles or Bakunin.

      Yes, "anarchy" was often used to mean chaos and destruction and disorder. So was "democracy".

    31. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a possibility for a world w/o private ownership of property? Uh huh. The first tyrant that comes around takes all your stuff and you can't really do anything about it.

      Popular militias, organized democratically, with rotating membership, and controlled by the community they protect would protect communal property from the actions of a "tyrant" who would attempt to claim private ownership over it.

      Come on, Durruti & Co. solved these dillemmas 80 years ago. Pay attention.

    32. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by khallow · · Score: 1

      There's no point in arguing. Anarchy is routinely used in the sense of anomie and is in the dictionaries as such. It also gets used in the sense you want. Further, I think you're making a mistake in thinking that specialized philosophical/political terms should be matched exactly with their corresponding terms in colloquial speech. It's just a waste of everyone's time. I understand what you mean by anarchy, and that is sufficient.

    33. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by bockman · · Score: 1
      Second, there's really no point to discussing the "true meaning" of a word.

      You now, sometime fighting over words is intentional and meaningful. You take a word and subvert its meaning (or restore its original but fotgotten meaning) bucause you want to show people that wat they tought as bad is actually good.

      This is the case I believe of anarchy:anarchists try to resurrect the political meaning of the word, because they want people re-evaluate the concept behind that word.

      --
      Ciao

      ----

      FB

    34. Re:Summary gets anarchism wrong by khallow · · Score: 1
      This is the case I believe of anarchy:anarchists try to resurrect the political meaning of the word, because they want people re-evaluate the concept behind that word.

      Ok, I can understand it. I don't think it's a good approach though. English and as far as I can tell virtually all languages are flexible enough to describe the concepts of Anarchism as is. Instead, it appears to me by trying to redefine "anarchy" Anarchists are merely continuing a 19th century battle that they lost completely. I see no point in it.

      Second, I think a more serious problem is that current approximations to real world anarchy suck pretty badly. The problem as it appears to me is that modern society somehow needs to maintain a great deal of infrastructure. Governments have a strong incentive to maintain this infrastructure, if merely so that those under their dominion are more productive and valuable. In the absence of a government or other powerful party, I see a "tragedy of the commons" problem. Everyone will use up common resources unless there is some sort of coersion to prevent that from happening. It need not be a government, but someone needs to do it.

  9. Shock! by michaelhood · · Score: 1

    Why is it a surprise that a business should be run any differently just because they are focused on open source, or open source centric?

    Of course you have to stick to a rigid business-like organizational structure.

    1. Re:Shock! by RiffRafff · · Score: 1

      Of course you have to stick to a rigid business-like organizational structure.

      Then you totally disregard ESR's premise in "The Cathedral And The Bazaar."

      --
      "I might have made a tactical error in not going to a physician for 20 years." -- Warren Zevon
  10. Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by putko · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The BSDs have more rigid professionalism than the typical Linux project. I don't know why this is, but there is a focus on correctness over features.

    Yet again, the PR-excellence of the Linux crowd wins. Even though, for instance, Yahoo!, a company that hosts a huge number of sites (and stores), uses FreeBSD.

    That's OK with me -- it is a secret weapon.

    --
    http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_s tone_your_children/dt21_18a.html
    1. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by sloanster · · Score: 1

      Sounds like the same old sour grapes from the bsd diehards...

      Sure, I love bsd as much as the next guy, but seriously - the bsds have more rigid professionalism? more emphasis on correctness over features? Given the amount of improvement in the linux kernel over the past 10 years, compared to that of the bsds, that seems a curious statement.

      BTW I'll see your yahoo, and raise you a google and an amazon.com.

    2. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by marcosdumay · · Score: 3, Interesting

      GPL wins. A professor may not bother that people close his code, but companies do, so lots of developers never see the BSD kernels, nor work with it. And the word doesn't spread, so people don't consider it.

    3. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by Arker · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, it's an oversimplification.

      OpenBSD definitely shows an emphasis on correctness over features.

      FreeBSD and NetBSD have different goals.

      That said, all three of them are wonderful projects. It's the licensing, not the professionalism or code quality or any other technical concern, that keeps them from being competitive with linux for mindshare.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    4. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sure, I love bsd as much as the next guy, but seriously - the bsds have more rigid professionalism? more emphasis on correctness over features? Given the amount of improvement in the linux kernel over the past 10 years, compared to that of the bsds, that seems a curious statement.

      I guess by improvement in the Linux kernel, you mean broken 2.6 development or bleeding edge hacks that break things. Yes, the BSDs have a much more professional approach. They actually try to retain stability instead of hacking in the latest gee-whiz device driver or VM scheme that breaks things.

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
    5. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by baadger · · Score: 1

      One of the main points this article makes is that successfulopen source has strict organisation, strong leadership and company backing.

      As a sister poster already pointed out, the BSD license is truly Free in that it gives anyone the right to piss in your face and make a $million off your code. Business's don't want that, they want to get a guaranteed return on anything they contribute. It's all about give a little and take a lot.

    6. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny, RMS praised Theo de Raadt not so long about about Theo's stance on "Freedom" and his use of BSDL.

      GPL is just a virus..

    7. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      can you explain the relationship NetBSD and Wasabi Systems, inc. -- there seems to be some company backing there, and I am pretty sure FreeBSD has a fair bit of company backing from what I have seen on the cvs-src mailling list.

      Please, get a clue :)

    8. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by imemyself · · Score: 1

      broken 2.6 development

      I've not really had any problems on CentOS 4 or SuSE 9.2 thru 10. In contrast, I think they've worked much better than the 2.4 based stuff I've used in the past.

      hacking in the latest gee-whiz device driver

      Why is having support for more hardware a bad thing? I can't see how having more devices that are atleast partially supported can hurt.

      VM scheme that breaks thing

      I assume you're talking about Xen here? If so, what has it broken? I've not heard of people having any huge issues with it, but then I haven't paid real close attention. I use VMware irregardless because I run things other than *nix in a lot of the VMs.

      Honestly, I think calling a lack of progress "retaining stability" might be sort of ignoring the point. I think it's certainly possible to progress a lot without hurting stability, and even possibly making the system more stable. If you want to keep using a 2.2 kernel because you feel people are progressing too quickly, nobody's stopping you.

      I don't have any major problems with the BSD's(well, atleast with FreeBSD, I've not tried OpenBSD and only used NetBSD briefly on one occasion). The several versions FreeBSD has seemed to work alright for me, but it has never made me think, "wow! This is so much better than Linux! I need to move all my *nix boxes over to this ASAP!" If anything, it might have seemed like a little bit of a step backwards, though I will admit that much of that could be because I'm more familiar with Linux that I am with the BSD's.
      Sorry if I sound rude, or arrogant/sarcastic. I didn't really mean to be, I just would have to disagree with you. And would probably agree with the person who posted the original reply, that you can have a strong, successful OSS project without a company behind it.

      --
      Every time you post an article on Slashdot, I kill a server. Think of the servers!
    9. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1
      GPL wins. A professor may not bother that people close his code, but companies do, so lots of developers never see the BSD kernels, nor work with it. And the word doesn't spread, so people don't consider it.

      There is nothing to stop you from modifying BSD code and releasing the lot under the GPL.

    10. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I assume you're talking about Xen here?
      Haha, no, he's not.

      Sorry if I sound rude, or arrogant/sarcastic.
      You just sound clueless.

      PS. As for Xen and BSD, check http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/xen/

    11. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by Arandir · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It has nothing to do with the GPL. While a few developers (like Alan) are going to refuse to work on non-GPL code, there are an equal number (like Theo) who won't. The details of the licensing is irrelevant to the system's popularity.

      There are a couple of things that makes Linux more popular. One is timing, as Linux arrived at a crucial moment (the advent of the cheap 32bit CPU) while BSD was stuck in court with a monopolist. More importantly, Linux is just a piece of the whole. Hackers love to put stuff together, and so the DIY nature of Linux was far more appealing to them than something that was already fully integrated and stable. Finally, Linus had a relatively low threshold for accepting code. If you managed to get his attention, and the code didn't have an obvious stench, you had a pretty good chance of getting it included. Other projects (including GNU, btw) had a much higher threshold for code acceptance.

      In short, Linux become more popular because it showed up a the right time and had more of a community atomosphere. If it were all about the GPL, then why doesn't Hurd have even more developers working on it than Linux?

      --
      A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
    12. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by maxume · · Score: 1

      Apple didn't see it that way. Apple vs the GPL, a /. paradox.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    13. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by cortana · · Score: 1

      Except copyright law, surely?. The BSD license does not release the covered work into the public domain.

    14. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by Cyno · · Score: 1

      When I promote software I promote what I like and use, Linux. Maybe BSD need more promoters.

      Also, the BSD devil is not the most customer friendly mascott. That may have something to do with this..

    15. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by Cyno · · Score: 1

      If it were all about the GPL, then why doesn't Hurd have even more developers working on it than Linux?

      Competition. Hurd is making significant progress, considering it only has a few developers. And it is, in a way, competing with Linux for mindshare, if nothing else. But the Hurd will take off once they get it stable, because its licensed under the GPL, meaning all Linux drivers will be legal to port.

    16. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by Pius+II. · · Score: 1

      No, but the BSD license allows you to strengthen the terms under which you license your (un)modified code. That is, you may use it commercially without offering source code, or you may GPL it. We call that "GPL-compatible", and the FSF has whole pages about it, which I can't be bothered to google right now because I'm drunk.

    17. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1
      Yes, the BSDs have a much more professional approach. They actually try to retain stability instead of hacking in the latest gee-whiz device driver or VM scheme that breaks things.

      OK, I love FreeBSD. In fact, I'm typing this on a FreeBSD 6-STABLE machine. Having said that, what crack are you on? FreeBSD tends to be hyper-stable, in that if you build a machine from good sources, it'll be rock-solid for ages. However, the "new" ATA system killed IDE support on a motherboard I'd been using for Linux and FreeBSD for years - I had to replace it, then install Linux on the old one for the kids. What about SCHED_ULE? Is that ever going to see the light of day? How about when Vinum was deprecated in favor of GEOM? What about when they renamed ATA drives from "wd?" to "ad?"?

      Again, I'm not a FreeBSD hater by any stretch of the imagination, and even maintain a few ports (including an administrative tool I wrote myself specifically for FreeBSD), but I don't think it's radically more "stable" in the sense you mean than Linux has been. At least, that's been my experience with it. Both are wonderful OSes and I highly recommend both of them.

      Of course, you might have been referring to OpenBSD as well. That system makes lead seem volatile by comparison, so you'd definitely have a point there.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    18. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by kz45 · · Score: 1

      GPL wins. A professor may not bother that people close his code, but companies do, so lots of developers never see the BSD kernels, nor work with it. And the word doesn't spread, so people don't consider it.

      Most software companies don't want their code open in the first place. As a software company, it's not very smart to use the GPL license to release your own code. Your competitors can basically use your product against you and you can't do anything about it.

      Free Software is normally used by companies that want to decrease the expense of building it themselves. It's much more cost effective to take someone else's code (especially if its free of charge) to build a product.

    19. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by jbolden · · Score: 1

      I don't know why this is, but there is a focus on correctness over features.

      Look at who was using the systems in 1993. The original people who choose Linux wanted a Solaris desktop but couldn't afford it. The people who started the BSD wanted a Solaris server but couldn't afford it. I'm only half joking here.

      Linus came from the Minix community, they wanted to play with Unix not do work with it. Then they picked up the desktop guys (VA community). The Coherent community joined very quickly. Desktop was a focus from the start, and Linux has always had strong desktop distributions.

      Contrast that with the BSDs. There was desire for commercial use from the start. NetBSD/OpenBSD don't even claim to be good desktop OSes.

    20. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They actually try to retain stability instead of hacking in the latest gee-whiz device driver or VM scheme that breaks things.

      Which means it's totally unusable outside the realm of some who consider it a way of life. Perhaps BSD suffers from lack of developer mass. I don't know. I've never been interested enough to try. The license is one thing. I do NOT want to contribute to something in which my work can be taken, repackaged and sold by a corporation without me getting anything in return. With GNU GPL and Linux I make sure I don't have to pay for making changes.

      If there was a BSD geared towards, say, multimedia applications, I would be VERY interested.

    21. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The BSDs have more rigid professionalism than the typical Linux project. I don't know why this is, but there is a focus on correctness over features.

      And here we all thought that BSD-snobbery was a thing of the past... but no. We still get bitter BSDers whose system has been comprehensively trounced in features, speed, multi-platform and correctness mouthing off. Why don't you tell it to all the IBM, HP, Red Hat hackers working on Linux.

      Then you can fuck off back to your sad little kernel that's now 5 years behind Linux and falling further and further back.

    22. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by AME · · Score: 1
      all Linux drivers will be legal to port [to Hurd]

      Only if Hurd can accept drivers licensed under GPL version 2 exclusively.

      Perhaps the GPL v3+ will allow combination with v2. I don't myself know whether it will.

      --
      "I have a good idea why it's hard to verify programs. They're usually wrong." --Manuel Blum, FOCS 94
    23. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by Cyno · · Score: 1

      I think it might, it seems to allow other licenses to be included.. But the GPL v2 stuff might not be compatible because it doesn't allow any further restrictions? I don't know. But v3 isn't even out yet, so it doesn't matter.

    24. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by AME · · Score: 1
      But v3 isn't even out yet, so it doesn't matter.

      I think it does matter, at least as far as your previous statement:

      But the Hurd will take off once they get it stable, because its licensed under the GPL, meaning all Linux drivers will be legal to port.

      Unless you think that a stable Hurd will happen before GPL3. I doubt that, but even if it did, when GPL3 arrives, you can bet the farm that Hurd will adopt it. At that point, modules that are GPL2-only may have to be removed if my understanding of the issue is correct.

      --
      "I have a good idea why it's hard to verify programs. They're usually wrong." --Manuel Blum, FOCS 94
    25. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by Cyno · · Score: 1

      ...when GPL3 arrives, you can bet the farm that Hurd will adopt it. At that point, modules that are GPL2-only may have to be removed if my understanding of the issue is correct.

      That's a lot of assuming you're doing there. This is far more detailed than you describe. Its best not to speculate at this point, unless you're looking for a thorough and valid rebuttal.

    26. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 1

      I assume you're talking about Xen here?

      No, virtual memory. Remember when nobody knew which scheme to use?

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
    27. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by Arandir · · Score: 1

      You're missing the point. People keep saying that Linux is more popular than BSD because of the GPL. Yet BSD systems have more developers than Hurd, even though Hurd is pure GPL (purer than Linux, even, since it lacks the exception clause).

      Thus I can only conclude that the GPL zealot's mantra that the licnese is the reason for Linux's success is bunk.

      --
      A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
    28. Re:Yet Again, the BSDs get Snubbed by Arandir · · Score: 1

      No GPL version is compatible with any other GPL version. This is the major reason the "or later" clause is so popular. The GPL cannot accept any additional restrictions, *NOR* can it accept any relaxations of the existing restrictions. The only licenses compatible with it, are those that allow the whole to be licensed under the GPL.

      --
      A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
  11. Re:What?!?!?!? by dusik · · Score: 1
    • You don't have to organise a company like NullSoft and list specifications and then have clear deadlines and objectives for developers.*
    • You and the rabble will kick MP3 ass.*


    *Your actual mileage may vary.
  12. The Economist... only 20 years behind the times by Colin+Smith · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Good advertisement for your mag mates.

    You see, one thing economists (and many, many others) get wrong time and time again, is self organisation... They just don't get it for some reason. The "bazaar" encourages, promotes lots of projects, lots of errors, lots of iterations, lots of dead projects and we get emergent behaviour out of that environment. These are projects which are strong, robust and evolutionary in that they will fill all of the niches in which they are needed. These projects are ... pulled ... in that there is a need for them... Traditional software is ... pushed ... in that there's a need for profit.

    --
    Deleted
    1. Re:The Economist... only 20 years behind the times by greg_barton · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You see, one thing economists (and many, many others) get wrong time and time again, is self organisation...

      And the amazing thing is that, if you say businesses should be regulated, they're very likely to yell, "NO! The market must be FREE! The market has WISDOM!" Then they go back to saying open source is socialism...

      Cognitive dissonance ain't just for psychologists and Republicans anymore.

    2. Re:The Economist... only 20 years behind the times by MichaelSmith · · Score: 3, Insightful
      You see, one thing economists (and many, many others) get wrong time and time again, is self organisation... They just don't get it for some reason.

      Actually I think economists have too much faith in self organisation, particularly by markets. For example by insisting that markets can solve environmental problems without intervention.

    3. Re:The Economist... only 20 years behind the times by JulesLt · · Score: 1

      Actually the 'bazaar' you outline isn't that different from the free market economics many right-wing economists espouse - that there will be many 'errors' and 'dead projects', and iterations - and that market demand (pull) will weed out the failures.

      In fact, these same economists make the same 'push' vs 'pull' comparison between free markets and planned economies - Socialist, Communist or just countries with large state sectors. What little business economics I did do also suggests that most economists think that if you're in the business of 'pushing' products that customers don't want, then you haven't got a long term business - so again I don't think there's a disagreement.

      Of course, you might be right on the point of self-organisation - they don't get that - the article in the Economist is suggesting that successful FOSS is where projects follow a traditional structure, but I'm not sure what they're defining as successful.

      Which brings me neatly onto . . I'd dispute whether these FOSS will ever truly fill all the niches in which it's needed - it's largely been successful where there is
      (a) a large overlap between users and programmers - i.e. the multitude of web tools - 'many hands make light work'.
      (b) a company using a free product to gain market entry to sell other services, willing to fund full-time development.

      Where it's evidently been less successful is where there's a large gap between users and programmers. There is less 'pull' on the programmers to satisfy the users. The users have less understanding how to contribute feedback. Of course you could maybe interpret that as saying there is no need, for instance, for a FOSS equivalent of Apple's iWork. (Don't say Scribus! That's mistaking toolset for package - Pages, for instance, is pretty limited as a DTP tool, but aims to make it difficult for people to create bad looking documents by sticking them on rails).

      I also thought that the 'bazaar' and 'cathedral' comparison also applied within FOSS - that certain personality led projects were just as much cathedrals as any closed-source company.

      --
      'Capitalists of the world, unite! Oh ... you have' (League Against Tedium)
    4. Re:The Economist... only 20 years behind the times by try_anything · · Score: 1
      Markets can certainly solve environmental problems, but it doesn't make sense to ask them to do so "without intervention." Even the mythical "free market" invoked by politicians depends on government intervention to enforce laws enabling property ownership and contracts.

      Some economists (and most politicians, businessmen, and lobbyists) like to define "market" in such a way that only their favored conditions qualify as a market, but if you take a fairly bland definition like Wikipedia's (A market is a social arrangement that allows buyers and sellers to discover information and carry out a voluntary exchange) then it's easy to imagine a market that solves environmental problems. Simply make it illegal to harm the environment! Current markets depend on external legal structures that outlaw theft, fraud, and a bevy of other actions that would result in a less desirable market (by some measure.) What's the difference?

    5. Re:The Economist... only 20 years behind the times by JulesLt · · Score: 1

      BTW - that possibly sounds like I'm disagreeing with you more than I am. Erm.

      I think you're very right about the Economist (and economists) not understanding self-organisation - the article has a kind of circularity, in that I think part of the definition of 'success' favours a strongly branded project that one that has forked to fill many niches (Linux) or might be very widely used but little known outside techies (Tomcat).

      --
      'Capitalists of the world, unite! Oh ... you have' (League Against Tedium)
    6. Re:The Economist... only 20 years behind the times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Property rights solve environmental problems, not markets per say. For example, if you actually owned the immediate soil, air, and water on your property, then you would be able to press charges when that property is damaged (polluted) by some other party without your consent.

      As it stands, government says it is perfectly acceptable for certain corporations to pollute your air, water, and soil. That's because you don't really own any of it.

    7. Re:The Economist... only 20 years behind the times by chris_eineke · · Score: 1
      And the amazing thing is that, if you say businesses should be regulated, they're very likely to yell, "NO! The market must be FREE! The market has WISDOM!"
      What are you smoking? Companies stopped saying that in the late 80s! Now it is:

      "Please regulate the market (ie. give us tax money) so we can continue to support the economy (and make bucketloads of money) and give jobs to natives (which we will offshore later)."
      --
      "All you have to do is be fragile and grateful. So stay the underdog." Chuck Palahniuk, Choke
    8. Re:The Economist... only 20 years behind the times by Omega+Blue · · Score: 1

      But...

      Isn't the market just "mob rule?" You see, there are no rules (except ones to ensure fair play), nobody at the top imposing structures and rules. Only a bunch of people doing things. Sounds like FOSS to me.

      Something's missing in The Economist's logic...

    9. Re:The Economist... only 20 years behind the times by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      It isn't cognitive dissonance or doublethink to them, it's simply a different definition of "free".

      Republican/Economist definition of "free"
      1.Available at no cost, ie: "gratis"
      2.For profit or making much profit, ie: "libre".

    10. Re:The Economist... only 20 years behind the times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least it's recognized as an "externality", something that isn't properly accounted for in the market. Emission trading, which relies on government intervention but also has free market elements, is the popular free-market solution. Well, there's also the capitalist solution of bribing the non-market government, but that's a little harder to deal with.

    11. Re:The Economist... only 20 years behind the times by ostehaps · · Score: 1

      Actually, you'll find that practically no economist makes that claim. It's true that economists maintain that under a perfect market, it would be the case. However, nobody believes that markets are complete and that no externalities exist. This is what causes market failure, and the reason why intervention is necessary.

      To clarify, in the case of pollution the problem arises because the privately optimal level of pollution for firms differs from the socially optimal one - the negative externalities of pollution are not accounted for in the price of production. Hence, the market will not "solve environmental problems" without intervention that alleviates these market failures.

      [Disclaimer: I am an economist]

  13. The bazaar by CRCulver · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's strange that the findings turn out this way, because to judge by Eric S. Raymond's presentation of the open source idea in his influential The Cathedral and the Bazaar one gets the idea that hierarchies and control are bad and that anarchy is the most fruitful situation. Certainly the most well-known example of open-source, Mozilla, only got tied up for years due to its exclusivist design system.

    1. Re:The bazaar by Debiant · · Score: 1

      I think this is not on/off situation.

      Obviously too much hiearchy can stiffle any endevour, but also too little can just cause
      badly run organisation where there reigns a chaos.

      Overall I think most of what is said of open source can be applied to business too.
      I mean most of business fail or don't get awfully far. Only few of all do exceptionally well. Anybody can start a business, jusr like anyone can start open source project. Best of business have really innovative ideas and atleast adequate management. I can't think anything difficult and big project that wouldn't need good managament, open source or business.

      And just like business, open source can be done by few loosely knit people with motivaiton if what they do isn't awfully complex and big. Most of what people do in open source, is obviously motivated by some benefit to doers themselves. Just like companies, except in open source people may have more varied motives than just plain cash.

      Open source has all the elements markets have, but I find ironic that it's model is doubted for the same reason people believe in markets. Infact I'd argue open source is much more closer to original idea of free markets and today's 'build a big corporation' get rich attitude that Microsoft represents.

      If you can't believe open source can work, how how can you trust markets can either?
      The critism in article is valid, but blown out of proportions.

      --
      Nobody knows the trouble I've seen, nobody knows has the trouble seen me, even I sometimes wonder why I write these line
  14. Truism by marcosdumay · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So, if you define sucess as having a big reachable community, the sucessfull projects will have someone able to tell you the name of every developer. If you define sucess as being used by corporations, the sucessfull projects look like corporation projects.

    Now, we could get the first page with some more truisms, or we could forget about generalising this idea of "sucess" to an area where there is simply no metric to be used.

  15. What never made sense to me by K-Man · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If the guy was so offended, why didn't he just edit the Wikipedia entry to fix the mistakes?

    --
    ---- "If we have to go on with these damned quantum jumps, then I'm sorry that I ever got involved" - Erwin Schrodinger
    1. Re:What never made sense to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Because it is not his responsibility. Why should he have to? Should he have to scour the web looking for other things written about him and fix that as well? What about the many many sites that copy Wiki verbatim? Is he supposed to sit and wait for those sites to copy the corrected info? What if they don't, then what?

      I don't understand your attitude; just because he is permitted to change it himself, why does that make it all better? Does he now have to put a watch on it and go review it every time a change is made? And if somebody keeps "correcting" it back, do you just throw one of those "this topic is considered controversial" tags on the top and walk away happy even if it is wrong?

    2. Re:What never made sense to me by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      Well, not everybody has your reading or typing skills! The poor guy is a *newspaper editor*, for God's sake!

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    3. Re:What never made sense to me by GaryPatterson · · Score: 1

      Shouldn't the parent post be modded as funny?

      In Wikipedia-land, who edits last wins regardless of factual accuracy. Why bother to edit, when it'll be changed by someone else?

  16. It's just a matter of naming. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is just something they write, so that they can feel good about themselves, but still support Open Source.

    This is entirely a matter of what clothes people wear, what syllables are chosen for words, with nothing substantial behind it.

    Open Source is still what Open Source has always been, with all it's variety, with all of it's jumble.

  17. Wikipedia is not open source by keesh · · Score: 2

    Wikipedia is not, in the traditional style, open source. With open source projects, there is still a central leader or small team of developers vetting contributions. With Wikipedia there are no such checks, with content being controlled by those who edit and revert fastest and those who can sneak malicious contributions into obscure places. There is also no-one handling the overall quality of any individual entry, thus the horrible prevalent writing style.

    Liking Wikipedia to Linux is a huge error. The quality issue is extremely relevant.

    1. Re:Wikipedia is not open source by aprilsound · · Score: 1

      They might have been refering to Mediawiki, the wiki engine that drives Wikipedia, and a lot of other wikis as it is free as in beer and as in speech.

    2. Re:Wikipedia is not open source by thewiltog · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In theory I agree...but my limited experience as a Wikipedia editor suggests that this isn't true. There may be no one overall guiding hand - with 1,000,000+ articles in English alone how could there be? - but I suspect a lot of areas have one or more guardians who watch closely over their areas of expertise.

      --
      The price of Wikipedia is eternal vigilance
    3. Re:Wikipedia is not open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      To be honest, we can just disregard what they say entirely, when this reporter can not even get their facts right. Consider this *one* paragraph (my comments inlined): "As problems of vandalism, prejudice and inaccuracy ensued, Mr Wales was reluctant to clamp down. In the end, he had to."

      Err, no. Wikipedia has gotten more accurate over time; our early articles were vastly worse and more prejudiced, and vandalism has gone down as our software tools have gotten better and popup reversions, rollbacks, vandal fighters, and more people all assist in removing them. The only factor going up was Wikipedia's visibility- Seigenthaler-type affairs were a dime a dozen in early Wikipedia entries or in vandalism, period. The only thing different in his case was that he had a national pulpit to abuse us from.

      "The site has set down policies to mediate debates; it has banished unco-operative contributors;"

      We've always done that. The first users were banished within a few months of the beginning of the project.

      "-it locked down entries that were frequently vandalised (such as one on George Bush)--changes come only from contributors who are designated as leaders on the strength of their work."

      We *sometimes* lock them down, and we rarely these days full-protect them (I'm going to assume here that these "leaders" are admins); it's almost always semi-protection these days, which allows >95% of editors to edit'em.

      "A blunt new policy was promulgated: "Don't be a dick.""

      Was promulgated? WP:DICK is more than a year old, and it isn't policy either.

      "And after the furore over the biographical entry last year, Wikipedia changed its rules so that only registered users can edit existing entries,-"

      Er... right. I'll remember that the next time I edit an biographical article anonymously.

      "and new contributors must wait a few days before they can start new ones."

      Nope; just plain wrong. You have to be a registered user to start an article, but the moment you register, you can start creating articles to your heart's content.
      These are only some of the errors; we'll ignore the graph (saying we have *3* million articles is to do violence to the meaning of the word article; it is only slightly less dishonest to state that we have three million entries without specifying how only about one million are anywhere near solid enough to merit the word article) and other problematic statements and assertions. What they have to say on Wikipedia is error prone enough, I simply cannot trust the rest of the article.

      ~Maru

    4. Re:Wikipedia is not open source by RPoet · · Score: 1

      That's true in theory, but in practice Jimmy Wales has the final say in any matter, and can make or break policy as he wishes. This happens increasingly as he tries to avoid more bad publicity for Wikipedia, and it's not always popular, but it's his web site empire to do with as he pleases. In addition there is the (much more democratic) Arbitration Committee, which is a kind of "supreme court" for resolving any stuck disputes by interpreting policy.

      --
      "Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
    5. Re:Wikipedia is not open source by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      In theory I agree...but my limited experience as a Wikipedia editor suggests that this isn't true. There may be no one overall guiding hand - with 1,000,000+ articles in English alone how could there be? - but I suspect a lot of areas have one or more guardians who watch closely over their areas of expertise.
      I'd say that about 90% of the articles on the Wikipedia have guardians - the problem is that said gaurdians may or may not have any actual expertise in the fields covered by the articles they gaurd.
  18. ANd now the vandals sign up as vigilantes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I used to write a lot for wikipedia. If somebody didn't like what I wrote, they would edit it, and they'd either offer an alternative writeup or they'd start a discussion on the talk page where they'd state what they thought was wrong with the article. Either of these tactics let me refine my text into something that person would find more fitting for wikipedia, and usually this process worked great because honestly I'm not a great author.

    Now I've stopped, because the vigilantes who claim to be working to fight vandalism invariably just revert any changes they disagree with or dislike without making any useful criticism or alternative input whatsoever (typically, "thank you for experimenting with wikipedia, your changes have been reverted, next time use the sandbox for your tests").

    The people who used to vandalize, now they just sign up as anti-vandalism vigilantes, and delete the efforts of others. It's too annoying to deal with when I've got a life already.

    I predict that soon there will be a brisk business in selling wikipedia monitoring and modification - if you're a crooked politician, you pay off a wiki vigilante to make sure your entry stays slanted towards whatever you want to portray.

    Wikipedia, I wish you all the best, and all the success in the world. But your swarms of vigilantes may bring you down just as fast as the vandals they were created to combat.

  19. Many eyes help by Handyman · · Score: 3, Insightful
    His denunciations spoke for many, who question how something built by the wisdom of crowds can become anything other than mob rule.


    It's obvious that an entry created and commented on by many disinterested people is less biased than an entry created and commented on by few. Traditional encylopedias fall in the latter category, Wikipedia falls in the former. But people are not always disinterested, and that's where the problems lie. So the real problem is: are all the participants disinterested? With traditional encylopedias, the chances are that most writers are semi-disinterested observers, as they are ordered to write about subjects, they don't select them themselves. With Wikipedia, people self-select themselves, which means they cannot be disinterested, by definition. And that's the reason that some kind of community control is required for projects like this.
    1. Re:Many eyes help by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      You are confusing "disinterested" for "uninterested". If a judge hears a case, being only concerned with rendering justice, then she is disinterested. On the other hand, if she wants the proceedings to end so that she can make her 3 o'clock appointment, then she is uninterested.

    2. Re:Many eyes help by Handyman · · Score: 1
      You are confusing "disinterested" for "uninterested". If a judge hears a case, being only concerned with rendering justice, then she is disinterested. On the other hand, if she wants the proceedings to end so that she can make her 3 o'clock appointment, then she is uninterested.


      No, disinterested is exactly what I meant. Encyclopedia writers are supposed to be objective, i.e., disinterested w.r.t. the subject at hand. Like judges are supposed to be disinterested w.r.t. the outcome of the cases they handle -- their interest is supposed to be justice, just like the interest of encyclopedia writers is supposed to be objectivity. Wikipedia writers are by definition not disinterested because they chose themselves as writers for the particular subject, which usually means they have some personal interest (read: bias) in the subject.
    3. Re:Many eyes help by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      They might choose to edit certain articles because they have knowledge in the area. Unless you are saying that having knowledge is a bias.

    4. Re:Many eyes help by Handyman · · Score: 1
      They might choose to edit certain articles because they have knowledge in the area. Unless you are saying that having knowledge is a bias.


      Having knowledge does not necessarily mean having a bias, no. But to want to volunteer one's knowledge for a Wikipedia article does mean that one attaches some kind of value to one's knowledge, enough to want to share it with others. And the greater one's bias in a subject, the greater the value that one attaches to one's knowledge in that subject. Simply put, zealots attach lots of value to their beliefs, and they are therefore more likely to want to volunteer their knowledge. I'm not saying that people who choose to edit certain Wikipedia articles are by definition zealots w.r.t. the subject they write about. What I am saying is that zealots have more motivation to edit certain Wikipedia articles. In fact, the number of zealots editing a Wikipedia article is probably positively correlated with the controversiality of the subject. And if the number of disinterested writers does not grow as much with the subject's controversiality (which is probably the case, as disinterested writers by definition have no special interest in the subject and therefore no increased motivation to choose this particular subject), it is easy to see that in very controversial subjects, the zealots will outnumber the disinterested writers!
    5. Re:Many eyes help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hilarious!

      Someone actually uses "disinterested" properly (a rare event--the battle is almost lost on this one) and is told they are not, by a second person who actually knows the true meaning of "disinterested" but has poor reading comprehension skills. So accustomed to misuse, they can't see correct use anymore when they see it!

  20. Re:Summary gets rein in wrong by Sabaki · · Score: 1

    As a word geek, let me point out that the original author apparently confused the word "reign" with the phrase "rein in". But at least it was kind of spelled right...

  21. In other news... by RoffleTheWaffle · · Score: 1

    Independing programmers and Open Source advocates discover that organization leads to increased productivity. Shouldn't this have been a gigantic no-brainer from the start? That organizing a software project - or ANY project as others seem to have suddenly discovered - might make it work out better in the end?

    1. Re:In other news... by try_anything · · Score: 1
      There are different ways of organizing a project. Some are better than others, and some are worse than nothing. The article suffers from a lack of specifics, and everyone will read it differently. By "rigid control structures," geeks are going to read, "The project leaders can vet and veto contributions," while business types will infer, "Contributors must get project leaders' permission before working on enhancements, and those who don't follow orders get locked out of the project."

      Business types may also take the hundred thousands abandoned projects on SourceForge as a bad showing by open source. Geeks will understand that many of those failed projects were learning projects (guilty!), keep-busy projects by temporarily unemployed geeks, projects naively started by beginners, and projects abandoned when the prime developer went to college and discovered girls.

  22. May be a Good Thing by Quirk · · Score: 3, Insightful
    a rigid, business-like organizational structure is of vital importance to the quality of the final product.

    'real checks and balances, and real leadership taking place'

    "Constant self-policing is required to ensure its quality.

    Any task envisioning an end product could be said to require the characteristics mentioned above. What may be of more importance is that the venerable 'Economist'(although I believe its always been seen as left leaning) is making an effort to wrap its mind around Open Source and in doing so allowing its readers to follow suit.

    Over the last year plus I've noticed more articles that tend to view Open Source projects as akin to 'hardnosed' business methods. I think they represent the establishment coming to a positive consensus about Open Source methods and projects.

    I noticed a turn in the way the general business community reported and interacted with Open Source from about the time IBM ran the ads picturing Linux as a small, blonde haired, blue eyed wonderkid.

    The old boy network isn't about to let Open Source join the club but they're certainly ready to let it in the service entrance.

    --
    "Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
    Cohen
    1. Re:May be a Good Thing by try_anything · · Score: 2, Funny
      Over the last year plus I've noticed more articles that tend to view Open Source projects as akin to 'hardnosed' business methods. I think they represent the establishment coming to a positive consensus about Open Source methods and projects.

      That makes a certain amount of sense. Calling Open Source formal, heirarchical, and controlled could be a business-world way of establishing friendly relations by handing out generic compliments, like telling your new co-worker, "That's a nice shirt," or, "You have such a charming wife."

    2. Re:May be a Good Thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The economist has always been seen as a "small l" liberal magazine. That is "conservative" in the economic sense for those in the US.

  23. Depends on the quality of the mob. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Depends on the quality of the mob.

    1. Re:Depends on the quality of the mob. by reesevans · · Score: 1

      Scienctific research is essentially a huge open source project, at least it is when it isn't perverted by commercial or "national security" interests. But I guess that's what open source is really modeled on anywaay.

  24. only businesses make for success? by sparkane · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "For example, it lacks ways of ensuring quality and it is still working out better ways to handle intellectual property."

    Then later, "With software, for instance, the code is written chiefly not by volunteers, but by employees sponsored for their efforts by companies that think they will in some way benefit from the project."

    Jesus. There must be a host of FOSS projects which were highly successful, but never involved with a company or corporate sponsorship.

    Does the Linux kernel itself fall under that category? At least for most of its history? And in fact is it the same thing to say that some "volunteers" are paid to do their work, and that therefore this is an indication of FOSS having to adopt "cathedral" management styles in order for its projects to succeed?

    What about all the FOSS network tools, Snort, Nmap, and the like? Were those all sponsored by corporate interests?

    Is it anything more than a red herring to say that FOSS software-production leaders actually must be able to manage?

  25. How is this news? by Zphbeeblbrox · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Any Project whether it's open source or commercial needs this to succeed. Open source is more than a development model. It's a software licensing model. As a result it's also a software as service model. The main difference between commercial and open source is the openness of the code and tendency to the service side rather than shrinkwrapped.

    --
    If you see spelling or grammatical errors don't blame me. I tried to preview but IE here at work borked the CSS
  26. Ask Slashdot: by Errandboy+of+Doom · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Are there good open source projects that buck this trend, that disprove the thesis of this article?

    This is the crowd that would know.

    Or in the alternative, is "strong central leadership" so inherent to all human endeavors that the thesis is a meaningless tautology?

  27. What else would you expect from the economist? by linguizic · · Score: 1

    The economist frequently mistakes responsibillity for discipline and constraint for authoratarian policing. Every project needs constraints. If I were to sit down and write a song without constraining by some mood and some form of theory it would sound like shit and no one would listen to it. Open source provides the right constraints in order to have an end product that's not a phillip glass or john cage composition. The fact is, corporate environments OVER police. Corporate policing gave us brittany spears and matchbox20.

    --
    Does this sig remind you of Agatha Christie?
    1. Re:What else would you expect from the economist? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that I have no fucking clue what matchbox20 is must say something about me... do I dare Google it and find out or should I remain ignorant?

    2. Re:What else would you expect from the economist? by linguizic · · Score: 1

      Celebrate your ignorance!!!

      --
      Does this sig remind you of Agatha Christie?
  28. Anarchy by LeapingQuince · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It is unfortunate that the term anarchy has a dual meaning - the most common being "disorder". A more historical meaning is that of "without authority", which seems to be what open source is all about - nobody telling anybody else what to do.

    Open source projects are the model of anarchist principles - people getting together, contributing when they want to, and promoting the common good. Even Wikipedia knows that.

  29. comparative improvement by bitspotter · · Score: 2

    Mob rule has it's problems, but I'll take it over plutocratic aristocracy any day of the week.

  30. Give them FEMA ! by tizan · · Score: 1

    Should we give FEMA to be run by the staff of the Economist then ? They seem qualified enough !

  31. Lets see what wiktionary has to say by technoextreme · · Score: 1
    anarchy 1. absence of hierarchy, power and authority 2. absence of any form of political authority or government 3. political disorder and confusion 4. absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose 5. without rules or laws (syn: anomie, anomy) 6. self-government
    --
    Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
  32. Spot On by hollisbrown · · Score: 1

    From TFA:
    "The first is how innovative it can remain in the long run. Indeed, open source might already have reached a self-limiting state, says Steven Weber, a political scientist at the University of California at Berkeley, and author of "The Success of Open Source" (Harvard University Press, 2004). "Linux is good at doing what other things already have done, but more cheaply--but can it do anything new? Wikipedia is an assembly of already-known knowledge," he says."

    This guy makes a great point. BSD, for example, came up with many of the features that are found in Linux. And wikipedia? An encyclopedia that simply compiles already-known knowledge? Give me a break!

    Innovation has clearly reached its limit in open source.

    1. Re:Spot On by tom's+a-cold · · Score: 1
      This guy makes a great point. BSD, for example, came up with many of the features that are found in Linux.
      One way the article showed bias was that it used Linux rather than original work like Apache, BIND, Perl or Python as the example. The open-source Unix derivatives replicate a standard (more or less) and so can be accused of lack of innovation. The same can be said about the BSD's. It's an oversimplification, since much of the innovation is in the implementation itself, but at least I can understand where the Economist writer got the idea. But there are many other open-source projects where innovation is part of the effort and the absurdity of the accusation is even more evident. So in the general case, the accusation of lack of innovation in open source is so much bullshit.

      Another point the author seemed too obtuse to notice is that the textual contributions to Wikipedia are open content, not open source. This is a distinction that matters. With source, there's a pretty well-understood testing protocol that can be used to validate the product. A critical bug is not usually a debatable feature. With content, validation is far more subjective. The two models just are not the same, and therefore the same methods of collaboration won't necessarily work in both.

      --
      Get your teeth into a small slice: the cake of liberty
  33. God I hate English by technoextreme · · Score: 1
    As a geek of some kind or another, let me point out that the coining of the word "anarchism" did not invalidate the existing usage of "anarchy" any more than the coining of "libertarianism" changed the meaning of "liberty."
    You just brought back nightmares of my college history class and some past discussion on Slashdot. Try explaining to someone that the United States liberals and conservatives are both another form of iberals despite their vastly different policies.
    --
    Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
    1. Re:God I hate English by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      iberals

      Doubtless hailing from Iberia.
    2. Re:God I hate English by Frozen+Void · · Score: 1

      Words don't really mean what they "suppose" to,just the data the associated with now.
      References of words(tokens) to (data)
      is such a vague and cryptic field,
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology Ontology which is debated heavily even now.
        you can't have absolute Word definition because someday somehow
      someone will use that word in new contexts and it will develope another meaning[reassigning another data block to existsing token].
      What etymology does is only separates tokens into smaller/archaic tokens,it isnt meaning what they can represent combined or modified.
      Like Chinese characters or sumerian pictograms our words can be redesigned into an alien language,using words as new tokens for large database of alien meanings(the data) and modified grammar.

  34. Open Graphics Project by Theovon · · Score: 1

    I don't know if this is quite far enough removed from open source software, but the Open Graphics Project is applying OSS ideas to all sorts of things. It would seem to apply well to HDL for chips, but they've also released their PCB schematics under a GPL license.

  35. UNLIKE PHP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The scourge of OSS.

  36. Ironically, Wikipedia does confuse the definition by technoextreme · · Score: 1
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy
    I don't know why they do it but aparently what people refer to anarchy is really anomie and perhaps the disambiguation page is mearly mentioning that fact. Perhaps someone should edit it and change the sentence so that it reflects this.
    --
    Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
  37. Yes, but also following best practices by CarpetShark · · Score: 2, Informative

    Yes, well said. However, it's worth pointing out that lots of free software is developed with good practices. Probably more free software developers use version control systems and bug ticketing than proprietary development processes. It's well established I think, that Free Software code is more conscientiously checked and validated before being submitted and committed to the mainline code base. Moreover, we have free tools available for all sorts of things, like code testing, vulnerability discovery, etc., along with lots of documentation and discussion about how that is useful, and how to actually use it.

    1. Re:Yes, but also following best practices by PimpBot · · Score: 1

      What? Free software is a political ideology. Establishing your project under the GPL does not reduce your bug count by 20%, does not make your developers smarter and care more, and does not improve your quality. Free software does not require documentation. Your comment implies that they do.

      There are some excellent tools that are available as Free software, but ultimately, the people associated with the project are what make it good or not. Great engineers span both the Free and commercial realms, and I don't think that will ever change.

    2. Re:Yes, but also following best practices by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

      No, Free Software is many things, including an ideology. However, it is also a culture which creates a product a product. With that culture and that common drive towards a common belief in a common kind of product comes a common methodology, etc. It's not uniform, and I never claimed it was. However, the non-uniform argument is just as true of proprietary software, so that's cancelled out on both sides of the equation, and all you have left is the clear presence of much discusson around development and version control and languages etc. that goes on every day in the Free Software community. This very discusson is evidence of that.

  38. Look up "rein in"... by BarnabyWilde · · Score: 1

    ...it doesn't mean what you think.

  39. PJ overreacts - again by rumblin'rabbit · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I read the article. It isn't near as bad as the denizens of Groklaw make it out to be. It isn't an "attack on open source" as some there claimed - more of an analysis. Jeez, The Economist even makes the point that some companies are are copying the methods of the open source community.

    PJ and her followers do not take even mild criticism of open source well at all.

    1. Re:PJ overreacts - again by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 1

      That's always been my problem with Groklaw. I find the articles educational when you take the bias with a grain of salt, but the comments are just too . . . autistic? They often seem to be in their own little world, and they don't take kindly to any viewpoints that diverge from their own. The slashdot hive mind has nothing on groklaw's.

      That said, they are a terrific resource. Just avoid the comments sections.

      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
    2. Re:PJ overreacts - again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "PJ and her followers do not take even mild criticism of open source well at all."

      When you are as perfect as PJ you do not have to take criticism at all.
          Why she was telling us just the other week that she is very like Linus (whom she considers a god), and more recently, after praising "Bound by Law" a Comic book style description of copyright law, she went on to explain that the idea behind it "nuanced juxtapositions of text with graphics" was hers.
      I expect her any day now to point out that the wheel was her invention, and she was robbed of her rightful recognition by people who merely improved it....by making it round.

      I know I should not read her nonsense if it annoys me, but now that Darl is keeping quiet who else is there to get riled at?

    3. Re:PJ overreacts - again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      " I find the articles educational when you take the bias with a grain of salt, but the comments are just too . . . autistic? "

      I had a tin-foil hat theory, that when the standard of the comments suddenly went down on Groklaw, as it did, that SCOG had provided a home for the bewildered with internet access that was confined solely to GL. The effect of this was that people with plenty of time and very little smarts could post there all day. I was probably wrong.

    4. Re:PJ overreacts - again by Frozen+Void · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That hive mind is called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink Groupthink .On slashdot its not that noticeable because of it expansion and varied views people have(a million at least read this forum daily).Groclaw is smaller and the groupthink is more pervasive.What we have on slashdot is
      a few "groupthinks" linked into one.
      I noticed the longer i stay in a forum,the less i object to its "normality and crowd opinion".
      Strong groupthink is what is dangerous,not a shared attitude or ideology strain that got popular.
      A monolithic subculture ("Hive mind" you comment about)following some memeplex
      is nothing human.Perhaps Borg?
      Don't you get urges to "follow the customs of the crowd"?
      ex: reposting some Slashdot meme in a thread that is ripe to such witty remarks,bringing satisfaction to the memebot and reinforcing the groupthink in that thread.

  40. Spot On-Brother, can you spare some innovation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Innovation has clearly reached its limit in open source."

    Now you know how OSS is going to make it's money.

    1. Re:Spot On-Brother, can you spare some innovation? by NewbieProgrammerMan · · Score: 1
      Now you know how OSS is going to make it's money.
      By writing a spell-checker for /. that can detect inappropriate usage of apostrophes? Or perhaps by updating the lameness filter to exclude postings by grammar nazis? :)
      --
      [b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
  41. A few inaccuracies... by pilkul · · Score: 3, Informative
    The lines of programming code upon which SCO based its claims had changed owners through acquisitions over time; at some point they were added into Linux.

    This is giving way too much credit to SCO's claims. I don't think it was ever proved that a single line owned by SCO was found in Linux. As I recall they were basing their claims on free lines of BSD which were added to both SCO and Linux.

    And after the furore over the biographical entry last year, Wikipedia changed its rules so that only registered users can edit existing entries

    This is simply wrong. Anonymous users can and always have been able to edit existing articles.

    Well, this article is still pretty decent but I expect better from The Economist.

  42. outcry for decentralization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The role of software decentralisation in the linux revolution is unfortunately too little appreciated. . . Most people are still in the thraldom of the Open Source dogma that centralisation is 'more efficient and economical.' They close their eyes to the fact that the alleged 'economy' is achieved at the cost of the developers' limb and life, that the 'efficiency' degrades him to a mere development cog, deadens his soul, kills his body. Furthermore, in a system of centralisation the administration of software development becomes constantly merged in fewer hands, producing a powerful bureaucracy of software overlords. It would indeed be the sheerest irony if the revolution were to aim at such a result. It would mean the creation of a new master class.

  43. The Economist is a disappointment. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I used their site search feature and this is what it came up with.

    "Search did not return any results for Groklaw, please try again with a different term. "

    How can it expect to be influential.

  44. No Obligation by pixelcort · · Score: 1

    Well, he doesn't have to. He could leave it as is; but that's not the point.

    And yeah, if he did and another kept reverting his changes, he could throw up one of those controversial boxen thingies. I don't see the problem here.

    --
    http://pixelcort.com/
  45. "Successful"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Firefox is the end result of a bunch of irrationally exuberant hackers sinking years into realizing that the Netscape 4 source was atrociously bad and trying to use it was a waste of time. I use it because everything else sucks more.

    MySQL is a bunch of shockingly ignorant and sloppy hackers slowly realizing there's a reason other databases chose to give right answers rather than faster answers. I don't use it because everything else sucks less.

    This is what they think successful projects look like?

  46. all organizations... by zogger · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...are examples of "mob rule". The only variances are which mob is doing what ruling. Even single named individual autocratic leadership organizations, from a nation to a ..kernel,say, are still examples of "mob rule" as ultimate dictates still need to be carried out by a *willing* mob. So called "democratic" organizations-mob rule. A private corporation? Mob rule. Representative republic? Mob rule.

    About the only thing that isn't, is a project that is totally conceived, implemented and deployed by a single human. Everything else is an example of a mob, although no one wants to admit they are in a mob, it has a negative connotation and only ever applies to "the other guys" and their "mob".

    Not a big point, but helpful in cutting through propoganda and media spin and manipulation.

  47. Re:Y HALO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I lika proffessional a bit more and best thing it's freee!!!!!

  48. Re: Successful GPL Projects by dch24 · · Score: 1
    Hey, thanks! Instead of complaining about the article, let me see what I can come up with as a counter-argument. Good idea! So here's my list of GPL projects that seem to be relatively open to random contributions. This is IMHO, and you're welcome to disagree with what I think of the "openness" of each development community.

    I'm sticking to GPL projects because I don't know about other ones as well. This is not meant to diss the BSD crowd.

    • ALSA everyone welcome to submit a driver for their card. I might add that most Linux Kernel drivers and most drivers for a number of other projects (X, CUPS, gcc backends, etc.) are fairly open and you can jump right in.
    • gentoo packages you might not get into the main distribution right away, but the community is very open and will try out pretty much anything you have to contribute. Like drivers, above.
    • GIMP and GTK at least, pre-2000. Now there are a lot more developers, so jumping in isn't quite as easy.
    • kino has a very flat hierarchy. linux1394 is the same. Like drivers, above.
    • MediaWiki

    Okay, but I also think that cataloging open source projects is kind of fruitless, since there are so many. The internet connects people with common interests. They develop projects. Some are more open than others. Still, if the project gets too rigidly hierarchical, someone will fork the code and head off in a different direction. Example: the different flavors of BSD.

  49. Prove it. by Comboman · · Score: 3, Funny
    People end up demanding facts and figures for something that can only be explained in terms of human experience.

    How do we know it can only be explained in terms of human experience? Please state some facts to back up your assumption.

    --
    Support Right To Repair Legislation.
  50. Challenging the Managerialist View by McLuhanesque · · Score: 3, Interesting
    As a PhD researcher into the evolution of organizational forms, I find the facile application of open source principles rather distressing - especially when they're used either to reinforce the notion that hierarchies (read: control and power) really are important, or to promote that people should work for free and donate their efforts to the "greater good" (read: more profits for the shareholders and more shite for the workers).

    I have a paper that challenges these notions being published in the upcoming (Summer 2006) edition of Organization Development Journal called, "THE PENGUINIST DISCOURSE: A critical application of open source software project management
    to organization development"

    While I can't make the paper available online just yet, the abstract reads as follows:
    The apparent altruism observed among contributors to Free/Libre/Open Source Software (FLOSS) initiatives is often envied by managers seeking to inspire and motivate employees. While conventional managerialist authors often encourage the emulation of FLOSS management style, this paper seeks a social-psychological understanding of FLOSS contributors' motivation, and the control dynamics of the projects' organization. Radical changes to the some of the basic assumptions of conventional practices may be required to translate FLOSS approaches to corporate management.
    For those with in-house OD folks, you may want to alert them to the next edition of the journal. (I also do strategy and OD facilitation and interventions on a contract basis; you can track me down via my profile.)
    1. Re:Challenging the Managerialist View by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For those with in-house OD folks, you may want to alert them to the next edition of the journal. (I also do strategy and OD facilitation and interventions on a contract basis; you can track me down via my profile.)

      Hilarious! It's tempting to ridicule you for the obvious bullshit you espouse, but I have to admire your ability to keep a straight face while separating your marks^H^H^H^H^Hclients from their money.

    2. Re:Challenging the Managerialist View by woolio · · Score: 1

      As a PhD researcher into the evolution of organizational forms, I find the facile application of open source principles rather distressing - especially when they're used either to reinforce the notion that hierarchies (read: control and power) really are important, or to promote that people should work for free and donate their efforts to the "greater good" (read: more profits for the shareholders and more shite for the workers).

      What do you mean that OSS reinforces hierarchies?

      If anything it subverts them. For example, one wants to radically modify/adapt program X to some new environment. If program X is closed source, and written by Microsoft, then this programmer is forced to submit to the whims of Microsoft.

      If program X is open-source, then the programmer has full control of how he can modify the program. He is not subject to the control of the cooperation.

      Case in point: Look at how many hardware platforms run Linux -- this is technically possible with Windows (w/o the source), although in theory with the source one could do the same...

      And when one considers licensing agreements/restrictions, the point only becomes clearer.

      Now if a cooperation wishes to PROFIT from OSS, well the only way I see is to make the OSS component to not be the end-product, only an accessory to the real product. (e.g. a networking card company releases their *driver* as open-source). Most closed-source software of this type is very poorly maintained and often ridden with bugs. The public gets ripped off in this manner. With an OSS version, people can still extract some value/utility.... [Now it is arguable to whether or not the consumers should hold the companies to higher standards -- realistically I think the public is too dumb & complacent for this to happen...]

      Basically, OSS can be a good "check" to "balance" the apathy of the masses. In some sense, the employees of a company are going to screw the public either way. With OSS, the public has another option.

  51. Sounds like... The "invisible hand" by plopez · · Score: 1

    Isn't this too how the "invisible hand" of Adams is supposed to work? Groups of people making individual contributions and decisions and creating an optimal solution?

    Really, I have come to the opinion that most people are afraid of true freedom, but would rather look for direction from centralized control such as religion, corporations, a religous belief in certain Economic dogma (the free market, the inevibility of communism, capitalism etc.) or the government.

    The article also seems to equate commercial success with true success. But the two do not equate. For example, no one is making any money directly on the tcp/ip stack, though it is used almost everywhere for commercial and non commmercial work. The same is true of C, HTTP, the aqualung (realeased to public domain by Jauqes Cousteau) and a host of other technologies.

    In contrast, proprietary software would be a failure because it does not stand the test of time, e.g., every few years the old version becomes obsolete and dies out, as opposed to open source which continues living and growing.

    Centralized control is not the answer, a self policing community may be the best answer available.

    --
    putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    1. Re:Sounds like... The "invisible hand" by shmlco · · Score: 1
      "In contrast, proprietary software would be a failure because it does not stand the test of time ... as opposed to open source which continues living and growing."

      Ah. Of course. That explains the tens of thousands of living and growing and... abandoned projects on SourceForge.

      Sorry, but the same "market" forces apply to both OS (open) and CS (closed-source) software. People no longer buy (CS), or download (OS), they find it no longer serves a need, or it becomes "feature-complete" and new versions are no longer needed, or it becomes obsolete, or they simply find alternatives.

      In CS, the company can fold. In OS, the lead developer(s) can leave or stop working on a project. Both can fold due to internal problems, bickering, strife, or lack of direction. If this happens to a popular OS project, it may attract new developers, or be picked up later on. Conversely, a "popular" CS project can afford to hire new developers, or it may be aquired by another company.

      But ultimately, both die from the same cause: Lack of interest.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
  52. Bah! by eno2001 · · Score: 1

    That guy didn't know what he was talking about! Mob rule, well... RULES!!! ;P

    --
    -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
  53. That's not what I heard ... by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    From the article:

    "... open-source software--products that are often built by volunteers and cost nothing to use."

    Apparently they haven't read the many Microsoft funded TCO analysis papers ... Don't they know that it is much more expensive to use high quality software one can download for free than it is to use poorly designed software that you pay for? ;-)

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  54. working markets require an educated public by chocolatetrumpet · · Score: 1

    Working markets require an educated public.

    I bet most people have no idea how their health is effected by industrialized runoff created by the products they use every day. The 3M plant here is one of the worst environmental offenders - and yet I bet asthma suffers don't think twice about buying that roll of tape...

    --
    Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
  55. With friends like this, who needs enemies? by mencial · · Score: 1

    So The Economist is just trying to teach those poor Open Source programmers The Right Way (tm) of developing software. This article is wrong in so many ways. But others like Groklaw have pointed plenty of them.
    I just want to make a point that I always miss in this kind of discussion. There is a wildly sucessful, innovative, world changing collaboration effort that works in the same principles of open source that is never mentioned: science.
    Scientists build on top of each other's work. They publish data, theories and results for other scientists to use freely. They form a meritocracy that measures success by how much their work is used by others.
    By contrast, propietary software is alchemy, magic. They will only do their trick if you pay them, and never ever tell you how it is done.
    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. And then, they forget that they ever anything but your best friends.

  56. Uhhh... by Arterion · · Score: 0

    His denunciations spoke for many, who question how something built by the wisdom of crowds can become anything other than mob rule.

    Like... democratic governments? o.O

    --
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
  57. Wait. Wikipedia? Businesslike? by blair1q · · Score: 1

    Letting the lunatics take over the asylum is not "businesslike."

  58. You are lying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nothing you wrote was accurate. She didn't say any of what you
    just wrote. For one small example, she said she was inspired by
    Scott McCloud's work, always wanted to try it, and so she loved
    the book Bound by Law.

    As for Linus, she said his method of organizing influenced her.

    All the rest is just the same anti-PJ stuff I believe SCO and MS have been pushing. It's a kind of "Get the Facts" campaign against Groklaw.

  59. Re:Y HALO by porl · · Score: 1

    My customers usually are like: "OMG!"

    Probably not for the reason you are thinking though....

  60. Left leaning? by DaveTheTriffids · · Score: 1

    > What may be of more importance is that the venerable 'Economist'
    > (although I believe its always been seen as left leaning)

    Maybe your political parties swing different ways to the ones in li'l old England, but The Economist, to me, has always seemed right-leaning.

    In British terms, right-leaning means favouring unfettered free enterprise, low taxes and free markets. Right-leaners liked Thatcher and her Conservative Party (whose colour is blue.)

    Left-leaning publications favor high taxes, socialism, market regulation and nationalisation. They support the Labour Party (whose colour is red.)

    And don't get me started on "liberal". Just be aware that to an American, a Frenchman, an Englishman in politics, and an Englishman serving you alcohol, "liberal" means four very different things, respectively Clinton, Bush, a centrist party and a generous serving.

    Divided by a common language....

  61. Bittorrent? by giorgosts · · Score: 1

    What about bittorrenet that revolusionised entertainment and is 50% of all internet traffic? Is that an examle of open source reaching its limits and does what others have done before?

  62. Economists are amazed by old trend - again by dbIII · · Score: 2
    I see open source software as a subset of the way science has been going on for centuries - circulated published methods of doing things read by many and contributed to by many.

    Once again we have a group of people amazed by the concept of giving away knowlege for nothing without noticing that we got to where we are today by exactly that process. We need better science education in our schools and universities - if only to stop some bottom rung business graduate who has achieved his position via connected relatives from calling us commies for using firefox.

    Edison for many good reasons is held up as the great example of technological capitalism, and the light bulb as his greatest acheivement. Consider that many of his contemporaries even in remote parts of the world also produced working light bulbs within weeks of the time and totally independant of his efforts - he built his great acheivement on the shared knowlege produced by others and circulated worldwide.

    To sum up, open source is an old idea and Bill's idea of charging money for hobby software is a new one.

    1. Re:Economists are amazed by old trend - again by Money+for+Nothin' · · Score: 1

      FYI, The Economist is not a collection of economists. Many of their authors have education in economics, and some specialize in econ and finance, but they have a broader set of writers than that. Most of them do still have a social science background (typically poli. sci) though.

  63. No content by Ginger+Unicorn · · Score: 1
    Name one open source programming project that is "mob ruled". It's absurd to suggest that open source projects that haven't attained critical mass as a business venture are suffering from anarchistic lack of direction.

    Surely what the article should say is any open source business ventures need to consistently guided towards business goals to succeed in that area. No shit sherlock.

    Perhaps it never occured to these clueless twats that some open source projects aren't aiming to succeed as a business, and are quite happy being consistently guided by their focused, cooperative maintainers towards the goal of being a decent peice of software.

    --
    (1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
  64. Examples by VincenzoRomano · · Score: 1
    It cites Firefox, MySQL and (more recently) Wikipedia as examples of projects that do not simply allow anarchy to rein in,
    ... and no mention went to the Linux kernel and the whole GNU prject. Interesting ...
    --
    Maybe Computers will never be as intelligent as Humans.
    For sure they won't ever become so stupid. [VR-1988]
  65. Free software piracy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    From the article:
    For every paying customer, MySQL estimates around 1,000 people use the free version [..] who may one day become paying customers
    Replace "free" with "pirated" and you'll get a very interesting spin on this. This is exactly the same way popular closed source products got popular in the first place: people using pirated versions at home and eventually ends up advocate it in the office. This is also the reason why companies (like MS and Adobe) is, behind the curtains, very much in favour of illegal copies.
  66. So why isn't it called anhierism? by tepples · · Score: 1

    If anarchism is about getting rid of the hierarchy and the disproportional power of the higher-ups, then why isn't it called anhierism?

  67. Re:Spot On - FUD ... Japanese lack creativity... by anon+mouse-cow-aard · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The hoary old They aren't creative mud slinging. This is exactly the same FUD levelled at the Japanese during the eighties... Theyre so regimented, they just copy, they cannot innovate. The fact is that making something good takes a lot of effort and experience, you get that experience from making stuff. The quickest way to make stuff is to copy it (with a large group of people you do not have to have endless discussions about what to do, because every one treats the original as a reference implementation .) After you have built it, people know what they are talking about and then incremental improvement can kick in. You can make it better than anyone elses.

    Look at the GNU toolchain, then try the UNIX originals. The UNIX originals, frankly, suck in comparison. Were the UNIX folks more creative? Well they needed something, nothing existed, so they made something, there was no-one to copy. The gnu folks copied it because that way everone (aka the users) would know what it was. But they made it far better over time. Was anybody creative in the process? Sure. There was lots of creativity, but it was in dribs and drabs, in details, over a long period of time. What made the GNU stuff great was that it could capture all the improvements over time, because it was free software, where proprietary stuff would have severe NIH because of their licensing model (do not want to share revenues with every bozo that has an idea.)

    The activity in the private sector that goes into creative innovation is miniscule compared to the amount that is either just plain obvious to someone in the domain, a minor improvement on something existing, or just outright copying/competing with somebody else. 99+% of creativity is obvious. Look at Apple, the ipod was not creative in a technical sense. What distinguished it was the design and execution. How well it was done in comparison to other mp3 players and integration with itunes.

  68. Re:Ironically, Wikipedia does confuse the definiti by khallow · · Score: 1

    Anomie is one of the possible meanings of anarchy as it is used in the English language.

  69. Mix lies and truth, and you get ... by MECC · · Score: 1

    ... this article. FTFA:"The "open-source" process of creating things is quickly becoming a threat"

    TFA is littered with nonsense like this. So insightful. Sadly, PHBs will jump up and down when they read a snippit like this.

    "The open-source method has vulnerabilities that must be overcome if it is to live up to its promise. For example, it lacks ways of ensuring quality"

    That explains why so much of it works so well. It lack conventional QA. Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Its called 'peer review'. Those stupid scientists have been using it for years, and look where it got them. Stupid white coats, and no dates.

    "Constant self-policing is required to ensure its quality."

    Never a problem in commercial software, or in any product development. Except windows and office, of course.

    "In order to succeed, open-source projects have adopted management practices similar to those of the companies they vie to outdo"

    See, they're just like us, when they "need to get 'er done". OSS doesn't exist, really, see?

    "Projects that fail to cope with open source's vulnerabilities usually fall by the wayside. Indeed, almost all of them meet this end. Of the roughly 130,000 open-source projects on SourceForge.net, an online hub for open-source software projects, only a few hundred are active, and fewer still will ever lead to a useful product. The most important thing holding back the open-source model, apparently, is itself."

    See - OSS will ultimately die out completely by killing itself. Die! Die! Die! Mhahahah!

    "Traditional profit-seeking firms cannot usually rely on their customers to play an active role in their product development."

    Explains why so much of it is badly done. I put Fluke's packet viewer product on a pc, alongside ethereal, to analyze packet captures. Fluke=crap++, ethereal=usefull++. Die, OSS, die.

    The best way to get a lie accepted is to mix in just enough truth to make it look true, upon cursory inspection. Like this article. It just a slightly more clever version of FUD. Nothing to see here.

    Move along.

    --
    "We are all geniuses when we dream"
    - E.M. Cioran
  70. Idiot... by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 1

    Cyril: "I'm going to stand here on the corner speaking about anarchy, if you want to find out about anarchy, feel free to come and listen."
    Bert: "Ooh, yes please, I'd like to learn the meaning of anarc...*THWACK*...OWW!! You just twatted me on the head with a hammer!! Why did you do that you bastard?"
    Cyril: "Look, if you don't want to get hit on the head with a hammer you should wear a helmet. Now, about anarchy.."
    Yeeeeeeaaah...it's perfectly reasonable to expect someone to alter the default settings of their web browser just because someone can't design a usable site! Awesome reasoning.

    1. Re:Idiot... by Frozen+Void · · Score: 1

      Awesome because it works on all sites i can ever visit.I don't trust the web designer to allow him to dictate what is
      his web page displays.
      I just want information in a convinient way.I don't need flash,ads,javascript or CSS to view some article.
      I'd use firefox for such sites if i wanted.The point is that i don't need such extras and i Don't ever use default settings.
      Only noobs use programs with default settings. If you don't know your programs don't use them,and then complain about "bad websites","popups","this page is crashing my browser,Omg!","this site is full of ads".
      Maybe you should stop visiting slashdot because of ads?
      Or you could use a hosts file?

  71. no transparency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    structure is necessary for any OS project to be successful and effective. however, whether it is 72 or 50, there seems to be a serious problem with the mozilla foundation when looking at the generous alienware that the developer of the best firefox extension gets. imho, there needs to be more transparency because firefox is to a large extent a community projet - yet, the money that the foundation generates does not go to the people who deserve it. there is not not even clarity on the absolute amount that the - open (yeah right) source - project generates. critising is always easy, so here are our thoughts.

  72. And in other news... by ph1ll · · Score: 1
    ... a magazine predominantly aimed at managers says that software built without managers can have problems.

    --
    --- "We've always been at war with Eastasia."
  73. meshworks vs. hierarchies by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    Manuel De Landa puts it in another context:
        http://www.t0.or.at/delanda/meshwork.htm
    "To make things worse, the solution to this is not simply to begin adding
    meshwork components to the mix. Indeed, one must resist the temptation to
    make hierarchies into villains and meshworks into heroes, not only
    because, as I said, they are constantly turning into one another, but
    because in real life we find only mixtures and hybrids, and the properties
    of these cannot be established through theory alone but demand concrete
    experimentation. Certain standardizations, say, of electric outlet designs
    or of data-structures traveling through the Internet, may actually turn
    out to promote heterogenization at another level, in terms of the
    appliances that may be designed around the standard outlet, or of the
    services that a common data-structure may make possible. On the other
    hand, the mere presence of increased heterogeneity is no guarantee that a
    better state for society has been achieved. After all, the territory
    occupied by former Yugoslavia is more heterogeneous now than it was ten
    years ago, but the lack of uniformity at one level simply hides an
    increase of homogeneity at the level of the warring ethnic communities.
    But even if we managed to promote not only heterogeneity, but diversity
    articulated into a meshwork, that still would not be a perfect solution.
    After all, meshworks grow by drift and they may drift to places where we
    do not want to go. The goal-directedness of hierarchies is the kind of
    property that we may desire to keep at least for certain institutions.
    Hence, demonizing centralization and glorifying decentralization as the
    solution to all our problems would be wrong. An open and experimental
    attitude towards the question of different hybrids and mixtures is what
    the complexity of reality itself seems to call for. To paraphrase Deleuze
    and Guattari, never believe that a meshwork will suffice to save us."

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  74. Strange by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    You believe Adolf Hitler? That's a strange person to believe. Still, I know you meant you believe he first made the statement, but still...

    And if he did say something like it, it was in German!

  75. Catch-22 by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    I believe that if people were to conduct studies of spiritual phenomenon, we could produce facts and figures to support it. No matter what the subject, until that happens, any given subject matter can only be explained in terms of human experience. The thing is people want it to remain that way, so it becomes not a statement of the current state of affairs, but a prophecy.

  76. Pokémon! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...Pokémon. There's an article for almost all of the three-hundred-something monsters in the series of games. For a more data-oriented site (with an index), there's also the "Wikibooks Pokédex".

  77. Re:Summary gets rein in wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that annoyed me too, what the hell. I keep seeing errors here. Someone needs to moderate these slashdot posts, like wikipedia.