Real Life Cash Card Launched To Access Your Virtual Money

Izeickl writes "The BBC is reporting that "A real world cash card that allows gamers to spend money earned in a virtual universe has been launched. Gamers can use the card at cash machines around the world to convert virtual dollars into real currency. The card is offered by the developers of Project Entropia, an online role-playing game that has a real world cash economy.""

Comments

Form 1040 VR

[TripMaster Monkey]

From TFA (emphasis mine):

Last year $165m passed through the game and the founders of the online Universe expect that to at least double in 2006.
The new cash card blurs the boundary between the virtual and physical world even further.
It allows people to access their virtually acquired PEDs and convert them into real world money at any cash machine in the world.
"We are creating the next level of the online experience," said Mr Welter.

Well, prepare yourself for the next level after that...taxation of virtual currency.

Here's an excerpt of the first comment on the above referenced story (again, emphasis mine):

In the U.S., the Internal Revenue Service will eventually take notice of the phenomena when someone who makes lots of real-world money by selling virtual goods gets audited by an ambitous Revenue Agent. Until then, unless you're actually converting virtual goods into real greenbacks, there's not much to say on the subject.

That sure was quick.

Of course, if this comes to pass, it should also work both ways...e.g. I can write off my Second Life costs as 'business expenses'. IANACPA, but I'm sure other, more fiscally talented individuals could take this idea and run with it.

Re:Form 1040 VR

[MyLongNickName]

I'd expect the real reason notice is being paid is the potential for money laundering. Anyone around the world can "produce" "goods" for sale. A U.S. based person pays a price for the "item". Real money flows overseas.When dealing wth other types of business, it is easy to set a range of expected revenue. What is the "fair market value" for a +15 sword of the undead? Hard to know if something is a legitimate transacation, or a money laundering scheme.

Expect more scrutiny from homeland security. Expect this to be a recurring theme for the rest of your life.

Re:Form 1040 VR

[dietrollemdefender]

I'd expect the real reason notice is being paid is the potential for money laundering.

What would be cool, is a virtual underworld that can create real money. Then, I can use my flight simulator and become a virtual smuggler! Of course, I'd have to get the "Drug runner/Smuggler" add-on package for Flight Simulator.

Re:Form 1040 VR

[7macaw]

>What is the "fair market value" for a +15 sword of the undead?

Why, 500 mana crystals, of course! This isn't a new problem, actually -- what's the fair market value of a "The Ybarra 'Don Quixote', 1780 (four volumes)", for example? Son: They're no use to Father, not anymore. His games were his own little world. Now it's just a painful memory. Daughter-in-law: Unbearably painful. Corso picks up a notebook, adjusts his glasses with an instinctive, habitual movement, taps the notebook with his pencil. Corso: Well, at a rough, preliminary estimate, you have a collection here worth around two hundred thousand dollars... See, these little +5 daggers -- they are not particularly valuable, but this +15 sword of the undead I can take off your hands for... 4 thousand dollars

Re:Form 1040 VR

[Ced_Ex]

What would be cool, is a virtual underworld that can create real money. Then, I can use my flight simulator and become a virtual smuggler! Of course, I'd have to get the "Drug runner/Smuggler" add-on package for Flight Simulator.

That's awesome! Then I can be a "virtual drug lord", and you can come fly for me.

Failing that, I can be just some lowly "virtual crackhead" begging for money for my next hit.

Re:Form 1040 VR

[Rude Turnip]

"What is the "fair market value" for a +15 sword of the undead?"

Duh, that's defined in Treasury Regulation 2031. And no, I'm not being sarcastic.

Re:Form 1040 VR

[nizo]

What is the "fair market value" for a +15 sword of the undead?

That depends on how many vampires you have lurking in your neighborhood. As far as I know I don't have any, but it would probably look really cool over the mantle.

Re:Form 1040 VR

[SomeoneGotMyNick]

I'd have to get the "Drug runner/Smuggler" add-on package for Flight Simulator.

There was an older virtual airline that did just that. I forgot the name. It's based out of Australia. The flights you download have a "co-pilot" that makes you stay low to the ground to avoid radar as you're flying "questionable" carge/people around in mainly a DC-3. If you don't follow his instructions, you'll develop a sudden "headache" from a high speed projectile pointed at you (then the flight ends). No autopilot allowed until you become skilled. I checked up on it a while back and they didn't update their flights for the latest FS2004. Such a shame, because it was a cool VA.

Re:Form 1040 VR

[operagost]

What is the "fair market value" for a +15 sword of the undead?

I have no idea because some tool like "Bl4d3" or "Buffy the vampire slayer grrl :-)" keeps bidding them up!

Re:Form 1040 VR

[tradiuz]

Ninth Gate reference is awesome. If only I had mod points to give you some lovin!

Re:Form 1040 VR

[Anonymous Coward]

Why'd you need a VR for that?

You come to any of my casinos in country A, bet any amount between $100 and $10M and lose it all.

The you come to any of my casinos in country B, bet $1 and win the amount you lost in A, less 5%.

That's how it works in real life.

Re:Form 1040 VR

[foniksonik]

Just put it down as a hobby deduction.... perfectly acceptable and doesn't require a business license, though I'm not sure what if any cap there is on revenue to qualify... just know that if you make potter for fun and someone buys a few for a couple hundred bucks, you can write off that amount of your materials as a deduction. So you could conceivably make a profit, break even but could never take a loss, which is to prevent people from writing off a boat for instance when they only got paid $200 for a day trip on the lake.

Re:Form 1040 VR

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a +15 sword of the undead, not a sword +15 vs. undead. Please read what you prost!

Re:Form 1040 VR

[Castar]

People have been "converting virtual goods into real greenbacks" for a long time, though. Selling your uber-character on eBay is a form of that. Gold farmers selling in-game money for cash is another one (and should concern the IRS more, since that's companies making a profit off of it, not one-off attempts to recoup years of effort). This is just a little more official.

Re:Form 1040 VR

[DerekLyons]

Here's an excerpt of the first comment on the above referenced story (again, emphasis mine):

In the U.S., the Internal Revenue Service will eventually take notice of the phenomena when someone who makes lots of real-world money by selling virtual goods gets audited by an ambitous Revenue Agent. Until then, unless you're actually converting virtual goods into real greenbacks, there's not much to say on the subject.

Here's a hint - don't get your tax advice from a Slashdot post. (Mostly because you can be liable for taxes on barter sales and sales in currencies other than U$D under certain circumstances.)

Of course, if this comes to pass, it should also work both ways...e.g. I can write off my Second Life costs as 'business expenses'.

I suspect that avatars will end up having to pass some form of Home Office Test[1]. I.E. Spending time in Doom (UO) farming artifacts will mean that characters U$D costs can be written off - but time spent at the Barbie Club or the Ahern Welcome Area (SL) won't be for an object maker.

[1] Contrary to popular belief - it's not that easy to write off a portion of one's home as a business expense, even for businesses operated from the home.

Re:Form 1040 VR

[DerekLyons]

>What is the "fair market value" for a +15 sword of the undead?

Why, 500 mana crystals, of course! This isn't a new problem, actually -- what's the fair market value of a "The Ybarra 'Don Quixote', 1780 (four volumes)", for example?

The market value of such a book is fairly easily obtained - if you know where to ask. I do, so do many insurance companies, and so does the IRS. (Back when I was one of the persons to ask, I got calls from both.) For any type of property you can think of (real, personal, intellectual, or otherwise) there's an appraiser or professional dealer who'll tell you (or the IRS, your lawyer or your insurance agent) the value of it.

I see no reason to suspect that virtual property will be any different.

Re:Form 1040 VR

[zoips]

I think the real problem will come from the disparity of prices of the same item across sharded MMOs. An item on one server that is worth, let's say, 500 gold, may in fact be worth 2000 gold on another. Even inflation adjusted some items will just not match up pricewise across servers. So which do the appraiser pick? The highest? The lowest? The average? What if on one server, the item is worth disproportionately less than the other servers?

The basic problem is that MMOs are not real life. As stupid as it is to state the obvious, it's extremely relevant to the situation. Trying to apply real-world value to an item that has no true, real intrinsic value is absurd. Especially in MMOs that are explicitly not based on RMT. Actually, I take that back, those items are probably the easiest: they are worth exactly what the developer says they are worth, which is likely to be always be exactly $0.00.

Re:Form 1040 VR

[Anonymous Coward]

I love that this is flagged interesting, rather than insightful. It implies a curiosity to learn more about creative financial hacking, as opposed to pertinent information with regards to everyday accounting practices.

Re:Form 1040 VR

[DerekLyons]

I think the real problem will come from the disparity of prices of the same item across sharded MMOs. An item on one server that is worth, let's say, 500 gold, may in fact be worth 2000 gold on another. Even inflation adjusted some items will just not match up pricewise across servers. So which do the appraiser pick? The highest? The lowest? The average? What if on one server, the item is worth disproportionately less than the other servers?

That's trivially easy to answer, he picks the value on the shard/server the item exists on. The same way he values other properties based on their physical location. (If you asked a bookseller in the US to value a first edition Jane Austen, he's going to do so to US prices not UK prices.)

The basic problem is that MMOs are not real life. As stupid as it is to state the obvious, it's extremely relevant to the situation. Trying to apply real-world value to an item that has no true, real intrinsic value is absurd.

Appraisers routinely assign dollar values to items with no intrinsic value (think the upside down Jenny) or that don't exist in the 'real' (physical) world (think 'goodwill' or intellectual property), as these are all items that real people pay real money for on a daily basis. (Intrinsic value, or lack thereof, is a social construct- not a fixed law of the universe.) If people will pay money for it on eBay, then a dollar value can be assigned - because a fair market can be demonstrated to exist.

Re:Form 1040 VR

[SoCalEd]

Yep. And dont forget the cost of your ISP, depreciation on that Uber-gaming rig, ATM fees, etc.

Its a brave, new virtual world....

Answers...

[mikeisme77]

I think this answers this question [slashdot.org]. When virtual money is real money, it becomes taxable...

Re:Answers...

[Nuclear Elephant]

When virtual money is real money, it becomes taxable...

I'll take a virtual audit over a real one any day.

Re:Answers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this mean my machine and any software is a write off? I can see it now

Alienware laptop = -$4000
WOW = -$50
+2 Fire Bow = -$25,000

Wow...

[kitsunewarlock]

This is...just...horrible... The fact people would waste real money to go to a "virtual club" to waste time in a game that could be spent doing stuff like hunting animals for real money (another enjoyable experience of the game) is just...sad...

Re:Wow...

[Kardall]

You know... wasting real money to make money? Don't you do that on a regular basis? You pay for gas, insurance, rent, internet all costs. You goto work, make money... The big downside to this... People will become stay-at-home gamers making money, becoming obese beyond belief :D Not much different than it is already becoming, however... ya... Imagine the hacks that will arise out of this... If it gets put into place, you could potentially make $500 US in 24 hours by macroing :) Who wouldn't do that for a quick buck? You could goto work, macro, make $500. Who makes $500 a day at mcdonalds and whatnot? These are the people who are going to be playing. Teens. They can play the game, get money, then go spend it on other things. So they basically will have two sources of income (even those who are 10 can play this game, which is on the norm, lower than the legal age limit for working). This won't classify as "work" so anyone can do it, make money... it's quite ingenious... but it's not a new idea. Just no one knew how to do it securly... who knows, maybe "they" don't either :D

Re:Wow...

[Firehed]

Tell that to the guy who bought the digital space hotel and is currently renting out suites. You purchase physical items and services to either survive (food/clothing/shelter) or to improve your quality of life. Seeing that we can't yet feed off of clock cycles, you're simply purchasing improvements to your QoL in these digital situations. The major difference being that you can, with relative ease, profit from those improvements. I made a fortune from Diablo II, and I was enjoying what I did in the process. What's not to love?

Plus, you don't need to actually kill stuff in the game. Well, not in the sense where something real dies, as I doubt the AI is *that* realistic. So people spend real money to do something they like doing. The smarter of them do this in a way where they can turn around and profit as well. I don't see how meeting people from all over the world in a virtual club is any worse than actually going out to a real club. Plus, you avoid the hangovers and drunk drivers.

That makes me uneasy

[Neil Blender]

This article makes me uneasy. How can people spend money like that?

Re:That makes me uneasy

[TheKidWho]

Pretty simply, you spend your money on silly useless things all the time! Games for example? How the hell could you spend your money on video games?

Anyways the point of the economy is to produce goods and to consume them. The point of becoming wealthy is to dabble in useless things. The point of becoming a rich country is so that everyone can then dabble in those useless things. It's all useless!

But things are being produced and consumed in this online world so the economy gets stronger and more people have more useless things!

Just like this useless post!

Re:That makes me uneasy

[smooth wombat]

How can people spend money like that?

How can people spend money on multiple pcs? Or getting the newest video card every 6 months. Or buying the latest fashion item, wearing it 3 times then repeating the process. How about buying 20 different jewel-encrusted watches?

While I understand what you're getting at the fact remains that people will spend their money as they see fit regardless of what you or I believe might be a better way. Put another way: People will do what they do because that's what people do.

Re:That makes me uneasy

[Sinryc]

Pretty easily.

Re:That makes me uneasy

[CastrTroy]

This is my trick to making it seem like I have a lot of money. Let everyone else think they need 60 Inch TVs, $2000 computers, and $50,000 cars, and I'll just sit back and realize that I can live without such luxuries. Of course, I'm actually making the same amount as the other people who think they need all this stuff. So, while they're running around wondering where all their money went, trying to pay the credit card bills, I'm enjoying life and am quite comfortable with the money I make.

Re:That makes me uneasy

[TheKidWho]

But you have no 60inch TV, no $2000 computer, no 200mph car...

And then you die, gone, finished, never to come back.

Re:That makes me uneasy

[smooth wombat]

Bingo. I feel the same way. I don't need all those things. I just need enough to make me comfortable. I go for the 'Quality over Quantity' motto.

I went mortgage shopping two weeks ago and in talking to one of the loan officers I met with I told her how after I put the 20% down on the house I would be doing the 1/12 extra payment per month to speed up paying off my loan. I told her I hate debt. She remarked I probably had no credit card debt and paid it off every month to which I replied, "I think I have $70 on it right now."

She chuckled and said she wished she had that kind of discipline.

I've always hated owing people money and have always paid off my loans early or put off buying large items until I had the cash to cover it. Going into debt up to ones eyeballs has never made sense to me. But I guess people are taking cues from the way the country is run.

Re:That makes me uneasy

[Neil Blender]

I'm on track to retire at 45. So why don't you put that in your $5000 TV and smoke it.

Re:That makes me uneasy

[TheKidWho]

Hostile eh?

And yes thats nice that you can retire at 45 with no 200mph car, no $2000 computer, and especially no 60 inch TV. ;-) Nah just pulling your leg

Seriously though, do whatever the hell you want that makes you happy, no one's forcing you to buy any of those things. If you value retiring at 45 more then owning a bunch of useless junk, then good for you!

Re:That makes me uneasy

[duffstone]

Ouch... That's reality for ya... I subscribe to the parrents philosophy, in that I don't spend my money on stuff that seems stupid to me. I don't have fancy cars, big TV's, fast women, etc... It's just me, my 1500 sqft house, my 2 paid for (old) cars, and about $500 in rolling debt on my CC for groceries and such each month. (Read: I'm single with no life and addicted to WoW...)

And I was all happy that others exitsted that believed like I did, until you pointed out how senseless it is to save and be the diligent little ant... I Guess I'm going out tonight. Woohaw...

-Duff

Re:That makes me uneasy

[TheKidWho]

Hey if that's what makes you happy, keep doing it.

No one is going to force you to do anything! Except well maybe the RIAA, they might force you to buy their music even if you don't want it...

Re:That makes me uneasy

[duffstone]

Yeah, it does. And I have a raid tonight so screw going out. I never really considered the whole retirement at 45 thing either. I probably ought to look into that since I have alot of cash just sitting around not doing anything. *shrug*

then again, Maybe my WoW assetts will allow me to retire @ 40. :-) Better get it while the gettings good (Read: not taxed).

-Duff

Re:That makes me uneasy

[TheKidWho]

Stay away from WoW, that's all I have to say for you!!

Re:That makes me uneasy

[nizo]

My retirement plan is the "work until I die" plan. Basically I will be spending the second half of my life making up for the poor money decisions of the first half. One upside of this plan is I have no incentive to live terribly long, so I can eat whatever I want. In fact, it kind of encourages me to eat poorly so I don't live too long. If this plan doesn't work out, I will have to go to plan B, the "mooch off my kids until I die" plan.

Re:That makes me uneasy

[Maxo-Texas]

I was looking for the quote from Vacation (1985) - Tom Hanks
but couldn't find it in the few seconds I have here during the day.

Basically
Time is Money... or maybe Money is Cocaine and Cocaine is Power so Time is Power... er... anyway...

Time is Money so if you earn $300 per hour, it saves you money to buy characters and items that would take a lot of time to acquire. You could work one hour, then spend 19 hours doing fun stuff in the game instead of doing 19 hours of mindless stuff to get the stupid item.

Re:That makes me uneasy

[Maxo-Texas]

I was on that track til I developed medical issues at 45....Now I have to save an extra $50,000 minimum to kick off enough money to pay for the medications.

Re:That makes me uneasy

[Neil Blender]

That is actually my biggest fear. I hope I make it, I'm sorry you did not.

Re:That makes me uneasy

[RealGrouchy]

Useless, useless, etc.

I think what this user means is this: So long as virtual games are distracting people from the problems in the real world, the Bush and Blair administrations are all for it.

- RG>

Re:That makes me uneasy

[Maxo-Texas]

Stay away from breads, potatoes and sugar.

But... I was a testicular cancer surviver so low Teste got me (and that's $200 a month). If you start getting night sweats, feeling anxious, thinking a bit fuzzy, etc. then you may have low Teste (It happens to normal guys too).

Re:That makes me uneasy

[Dare nMc]

> I'll just sit back and realize that I can live without such luxuries
I am also good at saving, and never buy any luxary item on credit.
In the old days, money was just a way to decrease the transaction cost. IE money has no value, other than what you can get with it.
so to not get too fixated on $$$ or items, I do remind myself saving money to buy something is smart. accumlating money just to accumlate money, and brag about net worth, is meaningles to me
I try to stop myself from "appraising" everything, such as that car is worth $50,000. I more like to think, when I have $10,000 I can then get my garage...

Re:That makes me uneasy

[TheKidWho]

Nope I don't mean that at all. This is simply what the whole economy is about.

Who needs diamonds? no one, but theres a HUGE market for them.. Art? Music? Games? Spiffy Clothing? Same thing, all useless junk that no one really NEEDS.

Now I'm not arguing that we should give up all these items and live with only what we need, no way! I'm simply stating that the economy is driven by these useless things that are produced by people. If it is a scarce good, then it will have a value. Those items in that virtual world are scarce goods.

As much as people like to chastise the government's of the first world for doing what the Romans did ie creating a circus to entertain the people, nada the situation different. Your simplistic comparisons are invalid and fall on their face.

PS: What are the problems of the real world?

World Hunger? Nada we can feed everyone on this planet
Overpopulation? Nada, the human population in first world countries is barely breaking even.
Oil Crisis? Who needs oil????
Global Warming? So what the human speciecs won't die out because of global warming.

Re:That makes me uneasy

[parallax7d]

So what you are saying...is that the boring parts of games should be for poor people?

Re:That makes me uneasy

[montyzooooma]

And yet access to credit is one of the things reckoned to help the third world. And I'm not talking about fake loans to corrupt governments. Think micro-credit agencies that lend farmers money to buy seed. And while it's easy to diss credit without it most people would never afford a house at all.

Re:That makes me uneasy

[smooth wombat]

And while it's easy to diss credit without it most people would never afford a house at all.

Agreed. I'm not saying credit or debt is bad (ok, debt is bad) but rather peoples concept of debt and how they manage it. About every other week you can hear/read a news story about how much the average persons personal debt is. It's something like $5,000. But that's the average. People like me are way under that number which means there are people out there with $10,000 or more of credit card debt. That doesn't even account for any other loans they may have outstanding including mortgages.

The micro-crdit agencies you speak of are great. I've seen several stories over the years about how these agencies will give small loans ($100 or so) to villagers somewhere in the third world so they can get better equipment which allows them to produce more goods which then allows them to have more money to expand their production and so on and so forth. The key though is the education process that these people have to go through to understand that they will have to pay this money back over time and how that process works.

Compare that to the usual process here in the U.S. where any collage student can get a credit card (which is how I got my first one) and run up huge bills because, for whatever reason, the basic concept of managing debt was never explained to them. Then, when they have to pay off thousands of dollars of student loans AND the thousands of dollars in credit card debt, they whine and complain about how they have to work so hard to pay off their debts. What, did they think the credit card company would let them not pay off their bills?

We can blame whomever we want (lack of parental responsibility, lack of schooling, etc) but in the end this concept that we should put every outlay on a credit card (.65 cents for a candy bar in some cases) and not grasp that the interest that will eventually be paid on the purchase can be larger than the actual purchase itself if not paid off quickly needs to be broken. It's a mindset of this country that "Buy now, pay later!" is our friend.

Debt is evil. A necessary evil but evil nonetheless. Once I stopped putting loads of money on my credit card and started paying off my bill every month or paying cash whenever possible I was able to accumulate the money I now have to purchase a house (high house prices are making it difficult though) with 20% down so I avoid the PMI tax (er, fee).

If more people would pay off their debts, stop using check cashing services (15% of the total to cash a check!) and would pay in cash you'd see a huge improvement in living conditions including more money put away for retirement purposes.

Re:That makes me uneasy

[duffstone]

Wow is my life now. I work, sleep(badly), eat, poop, and exist to play WoW. I often wonder if everyone is as consumed by it as I am. Then another red dot pops up and I kill and forget my train of thought...

For the single, White, Male, no-kids, slightly overweight, woman hateing, computer dorks of the world, this is our only and best outlet. I suppose if I didn't hate women (or was gay or something) that might be different, but I'm a firm believer in learning from your mistakes. I've made two of them thus far, and managed to get out of it without kids. I consider myself lucky to only be addicted to WoW in my post relationship life. I mean there are far more potent drugs out there to ease the pain. :-)

So say what you want, but WoW is a perfectly fine way to passify a generation of lost men who have, no abor social entanglements...

-Duff

Planned obsolence comes to MMORPGs

[Animats]

The founding company, MindArk, makes money because all of the tools used by characters in the game have a finite life and need to be repaired.

At last, software that really wears out.

Re:Planned obsolence comes to MMORPGs

[Geminii]

Obsolescence-disabled knockoffs from untraceable overseas sources in 3,2,1...

One word:

[Spy der Mann]

Bubble.

Re:One word:

[6Yankee]

Amen.

I don't understand economics - at all - but something about this makes me very nervous. Especially when there are six-figure sums involved.

Re:One word:

[mdielmann]

Well, there are three things required to make it work. First, tie it to a real currency. Check. Second, don't allow things to be bought by NPCs (basically by the game owner) at anything near market value - think bankruptcy rates. I don't know about that second part. Third, don't allow exploits to sit around uncorrected. Their agreement seems to indicate some level of seriousness about that.

But think about it. What does iTunes sell? Ultimately, musicians' time and bandwidth. And they're making good money. If players can buy/sell time and the company can tax for bandwidth/development, it's just another commodity. People won't pay more for another player's time than they think it's worth, not unlike McDonald's. And somehow I don't think "Chinese" goldfarmers would mind being paid in US dollars (more or less). Hell, I might go be a serf of one kind or another. Just another daily grind...but maybe more fun.

The future is NOW.

[Godeke]

I find it amusing that sometimes last year I argued that virtual assets were still assets and the guy who refused to accept that virtual assets were anything at all said "as soon as I can buy my groceries with virtual assets, I will believe you."

Time to start that grocery trip, it appears.

I am curious...

[RobOz]

How would MindArk go about doing this? Would they need to ride the Visa or Mastercard network? I have seen co-branded Visa or Mastercard cards, but not something like this.

Now we are all in trouble!

[Anon-Admin]

So let me get this right, real money and game money are interchangeable.

So you knock up your virtual girl friend, she gets pregnant and has a kid, costing you $25,000 real dollars for a virtual hospital, virtual delivery room, and virtual doctors. Then they slowly drain your bank with virtual housing, virtual food, virtual birth days, virtual college, etc. Pretty soon you are broke, mowing your virtual lawn, around your virtual house and listening to the virtual wife bi*ch at you about what a looser you are. All the time sitting in your real apartment with no money because it virtually vanished right before your eyes.

Re:Now we are all in trouble!

[AnalystX]

I see virtual alimony coming in your scenario.

Re:Now we are all in trouble!

[Reverend528]

I see virtual alimony coming in your scenario.

Time to go walk around in the dark until i'm eaten by a grue.

Re:Now we are all in trouble!

[mpathetiq]

Or you could just stop playing the game.

Re:Now we are all in trouble!

[Anonymous Coward]

So...basically...The Sims!

Re:Now we are all in trouble!

[kfg]

All the time sitting in your real. . .

van, looking for a hotspot down by the river.

KFG

Re:Now we are all in trouble!

[MrAnnoyanceToYou]

Ah, for mod points.

One question that hasn't been raised yet is that this is an alternative kind of currency, which has traditionally been quashed by the US Government. One wonders how long it will survive.

Re:Now we are all in trouble!

[sethstorm]

Would closing your account before the pregnancy comes to term result in virtual double homicide?

Re:Now we are all in trouble!

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks, now I want to pull the plug on my LIFE.

Re:Now we are all in trouble!

[mikiN]

...and virtual suicide.

What's the point in a virtual world...

[multiOSfreak]

From TFA:

"We're bridging the gap between virtual reality and reality right now," said Jan Welter, founder of Project Entropia.

What's the point in creating a virtual world and the trying to make it into reality? I thought the whole point of a virtual world was escapism. Online game Second Life already has developed a notary for verifying contracts, and that means that it won't be too long before virtual lawyers rear their ugly heads. Why bother escaping to world that has all the bad parts of reality?

What's next, getting virtual parking tickets or stepping in virtual dog poo? People are sucking the fun out of virtual environments (and I don't mean that in the virtual whore kind of way).

Re:What's the point in a virtual world...

[x2A]

No, I think this is for people who /do/ want lives... just not their own. It's pretty sad really, yeah it's tough to build a life in the real world, but it pays off so many more times than a fake life can do.

It seems, more than anything, a place to stash cash, an "off shore" type account. Just wait til someone disapears with a load of peoples money because they're not held by banking regulations or anything.

Seems dangerious on so many counts.

Re:What's the point in a virtual world...

[Zarhan]

What's the point in creating a virtual world and the trying to make it into reality? I thought the whole point of a virtual world was escapism. Online game Second Life already has developed a notary for verifying contracts, and that means that it won't be too long before virtual lawyers rear their ugly heads. Why bother escaping to world that has all the bad parts of reality?

An associate is working in a highly ranked financial institution in London - dealing with commodity trading. We were talking the other day and I mentioned WoW. He said that he's not going to touch it - "No way I'll start playing a game where a big part is tracking all the goods going through the auction house and making profit with farming - I can do that in real world and get paid for it".

How to make real money

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait til the implementation. I am betting that it will be done fast and therefore will be on windows; Once somebody has managed to steal millions in a clean sweep, then this will change.

This is what the future will be like:

[Anonymous Coward]

1000 years from now. A customer inquires of a merchant:

Customer: Do you take visa?

Merchant: Visa hasn't existed for 900 years.

Customer: Do you take American Express?

Merchant: American Express hasn't existed for 750 years.

Customer: Do you take Entropia?

Merchant: We don't take Entropia.

Re:This is what the future will be like:

[Orrin Bloquy]

Unbelievable. A Slashdotter finally embarrassed to put their name to a Futurama quote.

Now I know how the Monolith must have felt when it saw the monkeys use bones as tools for the first time.

Is this legal in the US ?

[sfjoe]

I know very little about this subject. However, I was under the impression that only the US Federal Reserve had the authority and responsibility to coin (or print) money. How is it they can do this?

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[TheKidWho]

Is the stock market legal?

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[Amouth]

They are not coining money or even creating it.. they are creating a comodity (the virtual money) and transfering it into current value cash

when you use the card and translate your (jsut and example) 1000 VD's to $10 for gas there is someone on the other side paying >=$10 for 1000 VD's

look at it more as a stock market and the VD's are the stock in the game and your card auto sells at or below market value for the VD to give you instant cash..

there is no creation of money jsut a trade exchange (abit a quick one but that is the wonder of automation)

my real question is who the hell is willing to pay real money for fake money, they are the ones driving the market and the price ratio

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[Opportunist]

Nope. The US Federal Reserve has the monopoly on issuing US DOLLARS. Not the monopoly on money.

Money is actually just a commodity. Bought and sold like everything else. That's why there are exchange rates. Exchange rates tell you how much the Euro/Yen/whatever is "worth" in USD. And vice versa.

Now, if they printed greenbacks and issued their money as USD, they'd get into serious trouble. What they do, though, is by no means different than what every country does: Printing its own money.

Actually, you could go ahead and print the sfjoe buck. If there's actually someone willing to take that currency serious, you can sell it for whatever other currency you want to have (provided the person willing to buy your currency has the currency you want).

See? Money is just another commodity. It's just the most profitable one.

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[Opportunist]

Don't ask me, there are still people buying USDs for their Euros. :)

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[AeroIllini]

my real question is who the hell is willing to pay real money for fake money, they are the ones driving the market and the price ratio

It's not "fake" money. It's just money that is only used in exchange for goods/services in a specific location (or online, in this case). It's the same thing as foreign currency: you can only buy things with Yen in Japan, for instance ... if you wanted to buy something in the US, you have to sell your Yen and buy Dollars, at a currency exchange. It's also similar to gift certificates. You pay money for a card that you can only use at Best Buy, and if you wanted to get that back as regular dollars, you would have to find someone to sell it to.

People buy "fake" money with "real" money all the time. It's called a money market.

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.libertydollar.org/ is an org that prints and produces "real Money in the US as an alternitive to the Treasury bills.

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it is even easier than that to "coin" money. Every time you write a check you've actually created some "money". Balances in checking accounts, savings accounts, etc. are all "money". So when you got "paid" by whoever you work for, in a sense, they "coined" money. According to wikipedia regarding money supply:

Because (in principle) money is anything that can be used in settlement of a debt, there are varying measures of money supply. The narrowest (i.e., most restrictive) measures count only those forms of money available for immediate transactions, while broader measures include money held as a store of value. The most common measures are named M0 (narrowest), M1, M2, and M3. In the United States they are defined by the Federal Reserve as follows:

        * M0: The total of all physical currency, plus accounts at the central bank which can be exchanged for physical currency.
        * M1: M0 + the amount in demand accounts ("checking" or "current" accounts).
        * M2: M1 + most savings accounts, money market accounts, and certificate of deposit accounts (CDs) of under $100,000.
        * M3: M2 + all other CDs, deposits of eurodollars and repurchase agreements.

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Since the technical explanation has already been said by others, here a decent real world analogy:

The currency of Country X is pegged to the USD.

As a recent example of this situation (along with the benefits and pitfalls), Argentina used to have a 1:1 ratio until Dec01/Jan02, when they floated their currency. Before 12/01, you could treat the Argentinian Peso as a US Dollar (and vice versa). By late Jan/02, the rate was 3:1. For more details see here. The US had no direct control over Argentina's currency decisions.

In this virtual case, substitute "Country X" with "Project Entropia".

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[Amouth]

the reason i label it fake is due to it's backers and the ability for them to instentaniously destroy the curency without any backlash.

when you compare it to Yen you are close except that Yen is backed by a country and it's people - they are the ones that print it and back it up in the end with goods.

when you comapre it to gift cards you are close except that they are backed by a company with a leagal obligation to the dept of the card until it is used. When you buy a gift card they put the money in escrow and let it earn them money until it is used then they take the money and pay for the goods.. they can not write the money you give them as income until it is spent on the gift card (that is also why you will see fees if not used in a certian amount of time so that a lost card doesn't stay on the books for ever) and if they ever go bankrupt you could fight and get the balance of the card back

when you look at the money in games the backers are not the company that creates it with a script or a click of a mouse the woln't give you anything for the money only other people that want it - it has no economic backing - this is why i labeled it fake monen, mabey sudo money would be better but it is defently not on par with anything backed by people with assetts.. now if the game company offers a buy back option for the backing then i would say it could be considered a curency. but not till then.

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[meringuoid]

However, I was under the impression that only the US Federal Reserve had the authority and responsibility to coin (or print) money. How is it they can do this?

To issue money which will be legal tender in the US - i.e. which a creditor legally has to accept in payment of debts - you need to be the US Federal Reserve. But the Bank of England, the Bank of Japan and the European Central Bank all issue currencies which are not dollars, are not legal tender within the USA, but which will surely be recognised by Americans as having value.

In general, to issue money, you don't need to be a government. You just need to be a bank. If I want to start my own currency, I might gather together a huge pile of gold, and issue vouchers good for exchange for One Gram of Gold at the Bank of Meringuoid. If my promise is good, then those vouchers are as good as gold, and are effectively money.

If I'm running an online game, I am issuing in-game currency for use by the fighters and rogues and mages who populate my world. What value has this currency? It can be exchanged for powerful weapons and tough armour and spells of mighty devastation, which are greatly prized by players of my game. Useless in the real world, but no more irrational than traditional money - I mean, what bloody use is a great big heap of heavy yellow metal?

Once virtual money, backed by the notional value created by the players of the game in which it exists, becomes freely convertible at market rates into real money, backed by the notional value created by the people of the country in which it exists... then why NOT issue a charge-card? It's no different in concept from buying goods in Ireland on my British bank card. The currency conversion is handled by the bank, which debits my account of pounds, pays the vendor in euros, and takes a commission for the service. Why shouldn't they take it from my account on World of Warcraft instead?

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[mmkkbb]

The virtual money is not actually legal tender anywhere but in the game. It is not guaranteed to be worth anything by the Federal Reserve, but by the game publisher. They agree that they will pay you X dollars for Y game dollars, but if they go under, you're fucked.

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[Nef]

Mod parent up! AC points out a great example of legal tender not produced by the Fed!

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[nizo]

By the way, I have a Entropia bridge for sale. No really I do. It goes up for auction on ebay next week. God P.T. Barnum would have loved this. Next up: ebay auctions for Entropia dollars.

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[lgw]

The US Federal Reserve is the only US entity legally allowed to create any sort of currency. You're *not* allow to create your own money and attempt to get others to take your currency seriously. It seems to be OK if you don't create physical currency, however. IANAL, so I'm not sure what the distinction is.

There are quite a few retirement communities with "work-hour" based local currencies, but those only exist as journal entries, much like WoW gold. Also Visa and Paypal each created what is effectively a new form of currency, but apparently a new way to exchange dollar-denominated funds is also OK, which should work for Entropia.

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[lgw]

It's specifically illegal for a bank to print its own money in the US. The Fed doesn't like competition, though the law pre-dates the Fed. US Banknotes (IIRC - the blackbacks that predated the Federal Reserve Notes, or greenbacks) replaced bank-issued notes (and Texas notes) by force of law.

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[lgw]

Well, I have to correct myself - a bank can print its own currency, but only under license from the Fed, which these days amounts to the same thing. Also, there have been any number of notes called "greenbacks", the "Federal Reserve Bank Notes", which predated "Federal Reserve Notes", are distinctively less green than other US currency, though the artwork is familiar.

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[DerekLyons]

In general, to issue money, you don't need to be a government. You just need to be a bank. If I want to start my own currency, I might gather together a huge pile of gold, and issue vouchers good for exchange for One Gram of Gold at the Bank of Meringuoid. If my promise is good, then those vouchers are as good as gold, and are effectively money.

You don't even need to be a bank. You don't even need piles of gold.

All you need is some pieces of paper.

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[AeroIllini]

this is why i labeled it fake monen, mabey sudo money would be better but it is defently not on par with anything backed by people with assetts.. now if the game company offers a buy back option for the backing then i would say it could be considered a curency. but not till then.

That's a valid point. Your mention of gift cards being legally obligated to be considered currency is the key, though. Eventually, when certain virtual systems DO have viable economies and exchange rates, laws will be written that will protect someone's online balance the same way laws are written to protect the "virtual" balances in banks, casinos, credit cards, stock transaction, etc.: the money there exists only on paper, not in any physical form. Those laws have not been written yet because the medium is too new. Give it time; I expect an online community will create a real working game "economy" that interacts with our own, with all the legal backing that goes with it, in the next few years. It might even be Second Life, considering the contract disputes going on over there now.

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[Anonymous Coward]

So when does the SEC get involved and hit them with all the regulations the other stock markets get?

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[Anonymous Coward]

anyone ever been to disney world?

disney dollars now thats a currency worth its weight on the exchange.

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[bill_mcgonigle]

It's specifically illegal for a bank to print its own money in the US.

I wonder how American Express gets away with its travelers' checks then. Maybe it's the signatures? They're effectively cash, though up to the recipient to honor them.

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[iamdrscience]

I wonder how American Express gets away with its travelers' checks then. Maybe it's the signatures? They're effectively cash, though up to the recipient to honor them.

Not really, they're just checks. Sure, they're not like personal checks because they'll never bounce, but they're like cashiers checks or money orders. The thing that makes traveler's checks (American Express or otherwise) not cash is that if I pay you with a traveler's check, you can't just bring that check to store and use it to pay for something, you have to cash it at a bank first.

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[iamdrscience]

No, but you have to be able to convince people that the money you're printing has value and it's a lot easier to do this if you have something to back it (Gold, silver, a copy of the Beatles' "Yesterday and Today" with the butcher cover, etc.). You're right it's not necessary though, most currency used in the world is not backed.

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[mmkkbb]

Hey, I never said it wasn't stupid :) Remember, that iTunes Music Store song went up to multiple thousands of dollars before getting cancelled.

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[bill_mcgonigle]

you can't just bring that check to store and use it to pay for something, you have to cash it at a bank first

Ah, quite so. Thanks for the insight.

Re:Is this legal in the US ?

[Amouth]

I fully agree that in the future it will happen and that laws will be writen to back it if nothing just so that Uncle Sam can get his share but till then i still view it as fake money - don't get me wrong Second Life is breaking boundries and i can't wait till they can merge virtual and real economies but until then my argument stands..

makes you wonder

[Burlap]

where did he get $100,000?

can you imagine the look on the loan officers face when you tell her you want to borrow 100 grad to buy a virtual space station in a computer game to turn it into a night club?

Re:makes you wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

I have no idea how he financed this; but it appears he approached it as a media distribution business, which might be viable. You might be able to get financing for that, as long as you didn't deliberately phrase your plan in a way that sounds insane. Or, maybe he just has money on his hands anyway and decided to take a personal risk on it...

In general, this "game money = real money" thing seems tenuous; it appears to be an unbalanced interaction between two economies. Money is always skimmed from the virtual economy (by the company running the game)... so although money flows in and out of the game, from the player community's perspective, the net flow of real cash has to go into the game. The main thing flowing back out (into the real-world economy) is the gaming experience.

From that perspective, the guy who bought the island took a real risk. But, it paid off -- maybe only because of the novelty, or maybe because it's really a workable model; time will tell. Either way, he covered his investment and presumably is making free money now.

But the nightclub is interesting because it actually aims to sell you something real -- or almost real, anyway -- in the form of music and videos. It creates a second link between the two economies. It may represent a model for balancing the interaction between the two. Of course, it also represents a new middle-man between media producers and consumers, so whether it works out, again, time will tell.

Re:makes you wonder

[rtaylor]

Can you imagine the look on the loan officers face when you tell her you want to borrow 100 grad to buy a virtual space station in a computer game to turn it into a night club?

5 years ago they called them websites and you went to venture capitalists to get the funds. They seemed to be more than happy to fund stuff like that a little while ago.

does this mean?

[celardore]

Saying hypothetically that some people played enough (and I'm sure a lot that would are out there), would it be possible to earn an actual *living* from playing games?

There are the pro-gamers out there that are already earning small fortunes, but this would be a kind of trading if I understood the article correctly...

Re:does this mean?

[Opportunist]

In theory, most likely.

In practice, I'd guess that the market is too small to sustain more than a selected few, like in every MMORPG. Unless you're able to provide a service that nobody else can or wants to provide.

There are actually people who can survive on the "income" from secondlife. It's by no means much (about 500 a month), so at best it's a nice additional income.

Re:does this mean?

[Anonymous Coward]

Heard of [Chinese] gold farmers?

Re:does this mean?

[necro2607]

Yes, tons of people do this. Take a look at the following sites for some examples:

Ultima Online - http://www.uoemporium.com/

Anarchy Online, DaoC, EVE Online, EQ, FFXI, SWG, WoW etc - http://www.ige.com/

http://www.ezgaming.com/
http://search.ebay.com/wow-gold

etc. etc. etc.

It's a huge economy actually, and I'm pretty surprised you haven't heard about that before. There was quite a lot of news coverage about Chinese "gold farmers" in WoW not too long ago.

Re:does this mean?

[Aussie]

In Entropia, due to the "decay" of items it is more important how well you play rather than how long you play.
With the decay of items you need to find the right mix of skill/equipment/targets or you lose money in a big way.

Of course most new players buy a big gun which they don't have the skills to use and waste a lot of ammo (money)
and decay (money) hunting while 9/10 shots miss.

In theory, yes you can make money in entropia, In reality, very very few people ever make a profit.

I have been playing entropia for about 6 months now and have deposited around 1500USD, My net worth in the game
is probably about 500USD. Mainly because I didn't know what I was doing at first.

Yes, traders are pretty much the only ones who "make" money.

Have a read of entropiaforum for more info.

And it can be a LOT of fun.

Re:does this mean?

[GodSpiral]

I've only looked into this game for the last 30 minutes or so.

Basically, it appears as though your expected networth gains are slightly lower than the cost of playing. I don't know by how much, but this is very different than most other RPGs, where the costs are fixed monthly fees, and its pretty straight forward (even if time intensive, and you possibly need to have been playing since launch date) to progress your character past the point where its market value is higher than what you've spent.

I would guess that its easier to maximize net worth in WoW or FFXI because most other players are not explicitly looking to do the same. Cashing out on the other hand has a murkier legal process.

Re:does this mean?

[montyzooooma]

You burned through a thousand dollars in 6 months? I hang on forums where the users bitch about never spending 15 dollars a month on a MMO sub...

Yeah, I know, there are more expensive hobbies and you probably spend more on lunch a week (40 dollars) but this sounds more like one of those online casino stories than a typical games story.

Already been done ...

[operagost]

We already have fantasy worlds where one plays games for funny money and cashes it in for real money-- it's called a casino! And most of the women are actually female! And attractive!

Re:Already been done ...

[metlin]

And most of the women are actually female! And attractive!

And old. Very, very old .

Re:Already been done ...

[NineNine]

You apparently have never been to a real life casino, have you...? They're very different from what you see on TV.

Re:Already been done ...

[drinkypoo]

That depends largely on where you are. I work in a tribal casino in California and I can tell you that the majority of our female customers are indeed much older than most slashdotters would be interested in. On the other hand, if you visit Las Vegas during spring break, there's more top-shelf hootchies than you can shake an appendage at. Reno is somewhere in between the two - A lot of Bay Area Californians can drive there (and they do, and they generate a very large percentage of the business in that town) but it doesn't have the prestige of LV.

Re:Already been done ...

[NineNine]

Thanks for the info. I've always gone to Vegas, and while there are grandmas playing slots, I have never been when there was not plenty of hot ass to go around.

Re:Already been done ...

[owlstead]

A real casino? No way. I don't play any games online (anymore), but I know that I would find casino games terribly *boring* in relation to online role playing games. Of course, if you look at the online casino's, many other people think different.

Re:Already been done ...

[metlin]

Actually, other than Vegas or Atlantic City, most casinos have older people, rather than younger.

Take any smaller casino in and around your state and go visit - you'd be surprised at the number of older people you'd find.

Here's a bet nobody will hold

[Opportunist]

I bet it doesn't take a day before the first virtual hooker offers his (yes, HIS. NO matter what sex the avatar has) service.

Re:Here's a bet nobody will hold

[notea42]

Sadly, I've read reports that Second Life has had virtual prostitution for some time.

Re:Here's a bet nobody will hold

[Jubetas]

Yes, it's been done.

Re:Here's a bet nobody will hold

[Wes Janson]

Actually, Project: Entropia already had an attempt at a call girl/escort service, way back around 2001 or so. It never got off of the ground because the parent company running the game, MindArk, refused to allow them to implement their idea. For what it's worth, the name of their group was the L.O.V.E. Society.

There's probably only a handful of people left in the world who know about that particular bit of history from Project: Entropia.

Re:Here's a bet nobody will hold

[Opportunist]

Had? You mean, I just signed up for nothing?

New slogan

[From A Far Away Land]

Entropia: Licensed software that's a license to print money.

Simple

[Opportunist]

Your looks != your avatar's looks
Also, your sex... you get the idea.

Mmm, well lets run with this question

[SmallFurryCreature]

Why do we try to add real life to games.

You say it is a pest. Well I am sure that real world snipers find it a pest that they got to account for wind, distance, differences in elevation etc etc. Yet do we prefer a game that attempts to simulate these OR do we prefer games were the bullet arrives instantly at the target in a straight line?

The anwer? Depends on the game.

Offcourse the bullet still ain't real and neither are the consequences. Were as spending real cash on speculation in a game can have some real consequences.

Frankly I think this is just a development of the gold farmers. Why lets a 3rd party earn all the money when the developer himself can get it instead.

Time is money. If I am not willing to spend the time in game to earn the virtual cash I can just spend real cash to aquire it instead.

The idea is not revolutionary. What do you think game guides are? Apperently there is a big enough market to actually print books that costs as much as the game to tell you how to safe time. Again, your cash to save your time.

You could ask yourselve why people spend time playing a game where aquiring money is as much as chore as real work but then you could ask that about a lot of peoples hobbies.

Hell billions of people go on holidays to live in conditions they would not tolerate at home. And pay for it!

People are weird and do weird stuff.

What really is the difference between paying for a game to grind gold coins vs grinding in the real world to get cash to buy gold coins vs saving up all year to go sit in a hotel room the size of your bathroom and be surrounded by people speaking foreign when at home you spend all your time trying to get the foreigners out?

PR Stunt

[zerosignal]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Entropia

"On 24 October 2005, an 'Asteroid Space Resort' was bought by "Jon NEVERDIE Jacobs" for a sum of 1,000,000 PED (100,000 US Dollars), greatly surpassing Treasure Island. According to a Digital hollywood Bio, Jon Jacobs is the U.S. Spokesperson for Project Entropia, where his functions include US strategic relations as well as, business development, marketing and content acquisition. He is also the writer and producer of a song played within the Project Entropia Universe called "Gamer Chick". The Asteroid was named Club NEVERDIE after Jacobs's own in game Avatar and has made headlines around the world for the high price of the purchase and his own ambitious plans to turn the resort into a venue for "Live Entertainment in Virtual Reality"."

Re:PR Stunt

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm, so, the creators of the game can print their own money. Genius.

Uhhhh

[Reality Master 101]

A real world cash card that allows gamers to spend money earned in a virtual universe has been launched. Gamers can use the card at cash machines around the world to convert virtual dollars into real currency.

Er, forgive my leap to conclusions here, but isn't this basically gambling?

"Yeah, I converted my cash into this 'virtual money' they call 'chips'. It's fabulous, this place called a 'casino' has its own virtual economy! I can go to different parts and perform 'business transactions' that can make me virtual money (or lose virtual money, of course). Then, I can convert my virtual money back into real money! It's amazing!"

Re:Uhhhh

[Maxo-Texas]

Sort of... but the stock market is sort of gambling too then.

The difference is that in mmorgs, if you put in enough time, you will produce a certain amount of "product" that you can sell. The value of that product is related to the amount of time you spend.

The reason the "+5 Uber Sword" is worth $700 is because it takes 20 hours of work/playing to get one AND there is a matching lawyer/doctor/rich person who says, "Wow- I only have to spend two hours of my income to get an item taht would take me 20 hours to get in the game."

OTH, except for maybe poker, the more time you spend gambling, the less money you have.

Re:Uhhhh

[meringuoid]

Er, forgive my leap to conclusions here, but isn't this basically gambling?

For fuck's sake SHUT UP.

When you log on to a MMORPG you are putting at stake your character and all his equipment. You may, by skill and luck, gain levels and acquire better equipment, and increase the value of your character, or you may suffer the misfortune of being devoured by a terrible dragon and have to start afresh (or at least be considerably set back - depends on local rules.)

The moment MMORPG characters and equipment have real-world monetary value, you're staking real value in a game of skill and luck, in the hope of winning more real value. Yes, you are gambling. And the MMORPG server is indeed a casino. Now, given that the United States has some really weird ideas about gambling, legality of, and why it isn't... just keep bloody quiet and don't give the buggers any ideas, OK?

Re:Uhhhh

[L33tminion]

Only if the business transactions in the MMORPG consist of betting on games of chance. You can gamble with cash, and you can use virtual money in ways that aren't gambling.

Re:Uhhhh

[iamdrscience]

Er, forgive my leap to conclusions here, but isn't this basically gambling?

It depends on how you define the word gambling. Going by the dictionary, a gamble would be betting on an uncertain outcome, but often people reserve "gamble" for something that relies purely on chance. For instance, some people might refer to investing in the stock market as gambling because the outcome is uncertain, but many people would abstain from referring to it as such because the outcome is, at least partly, controlled by skill, i.e. picking and diversifying your investments to control and balance the risk you're taking.

Re:Uhhhh

[Geminii]

"I converted my gold into this 'virtual money' they call 'US dollars'. It's fabulous, this place called 'real life' has its own virtual economy! I can go to different parts and perform 'business transactions' that can make me virtual money (or lose virtual money, of course). Then, I can convert my 'dollars' back into real gold! It's amazing!"

Re:Uhhhh

[optimus2861]

The moment MMORPG characters and equipment have real-world monetary value

Is the moment that people/companies who run MMORPG servers can and will get sued when a server crash or mistake by a DM blows away some gamer's character or equipment.

Why would anyone in charge of a MMORPG even want to go down this road?

...and we thought the dot com bubble burst was bad

[IflyRC]

WOW! People are in debt enough without having to worry about virtual debt.

Just think about it, the dot com bubble burst because of companies with over valued stock failed to ever produce a real profit. A lot of people lost jobs and a lot of money - but the stock market, at least in the USA, has an aura of risk around it. Most people who play the stock market know the risks (granted, not all).

In this however, I can see total idiots losing everything they own - kind of like how people spend life savings on the lottery, but much worse.

It's interesting though that every single bit of value on this is based on virtual perception. How much do you want that plot of digital land to build a house on? Unlike real land, the only people who might see that as valuable are others in the same virtual environment which in the end limits the value. One person may see it as $50,000 worth of digital real estate while someone else would look at you like you were crazy if you told them "I'll sell you some land in a game for $0.25"

Beggars Belief

[berenixium]

"Spare Us a Few Virtual Quid for A Make-Believe Cup of Tea, Guv'nor?"

Goldmine for GoldFarmers

[Deathlizard]

well. At least it removes the Middleman for the Gold farmers.

That is, if you can even farm in this game...

Re:Goldmine for GoldFarmers

[Anonymous Coward]

well. At least it removes the Middleman for the Gold farmers.

There are other methods for removing gold farming middlemen: Business 101.

What about gambling?

[szquirrel]

Forget taxes, be more concerned about gambling laws.

I tried out Project Entropia. When I managed to hunt a few critters I found the same kill-and-loot system that I knew from just about every other MMOG. Except the loot was convertable to real money with payouts controlled by the PE developers. How is that not online gambling?

Re:What about gambling?

[Golias]

Depends on how rigid the country you are in wants to be about it.

In Japan, the only "legal" gambling is horse racing, speed boat racing, and majong.

However, they have Pachinko parlors everywhere. Pachinko is kind of like an old-fashioned pinball game, where you drop a steel ball into a glass-lined case, and watch it bounce off a bunch of pins until falling into certain holes.

The way the parlors work, you buy a certain number of balls with cash to play this "recreational" game. If you win, you can collect "prizes", which are generally stuffed toys you don't actually want or whatever.

On your way out of the parlor, you stop by a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT business who will "buy" your "prizes" from you for cash.

But it's not gambling. At least, not as far as the current law in Japan is concerned.

Virtual goods feel like stock/property

[Maxo-Texas]

They change in value over time.

So if you have the "uber rare sword +5" which is worth $20,000, then could the government charge you property tax? Then can you take a loss if the game closes (and as a result the item becomes worthless)?

Part of the reason these items can take these values is because taxes are not included in the transactions. Add back in taxes and the prices will drop.

Vegas

[Anonymous Coward]

Think about that question next time you use cash to buy some poker chips.

check this out!

[Anonymous Coward]

I found this very helpful page: http://www.dodgemail.net/ let's you use a free and anonymous on-the-fly email address to dodge spam or any unwanted mail!

Touchy laws.

[Rob T Firefly]

On the one hand, all major currency is virtual nowadays unless you are bartering with gold or jewels or something. The paper and base metals in your pockets are not worth what's printed on them, in and of themselves.

On the other hand, at least in the US, only the government can create legal tender currency out of nothing. (Or so I bvelieve, and IANAL.) Casinos have to fill in the right forms / get friendly with the right lawmakers or mobsters / jump through a zillion hoops in order to be able to maintain their trade. Arcades and other places that sell "chips" or "tokens" of any kind have to go out of their way to label everything as "for entertainment purposes only" and "no cash value." Giving away a cheap prize in exchange for Skee-Ball points is okay, paying cash is not.

This smells...

[ticacms]

... like a typical pyramidal scheme, and I have seen a couple being from west Balkans.

Letter from Nigerian Prince

[Anonymous Coward]

"If you could help the Nigerian prince cash out his virtual cash you will receive $100,000 US dollars.
Please just provide your bank account..."

Now that is Just Great.
Real scams take your virtual cash and virtual scams take your real money!

Geez!

For Project entropia Item duplication

[Anonymous Coward]

For Project entropia Item duplication :
Project-entropia is a very glitchy game, there are many ways to Glitch in this game, simply editing the registry.
1. go to start, run and type in regedit
2. press ctrl+f and find somthing called pema.reg
3. Open and log on into Project-Entropia.
4. get any item and go to a trade terminal and put it in like you are going to sell it.
5.Minimize project-entropia and and edit pema.reg and change the Vaule code to 82.617.
6. close Project entropia and log on again. there should be two copys of the item in your Inventory. Good luck and have a good time getting rich :)

Re:For Project entropia Item duplication

[Wes Janson]

Note: parent is a troll, and attempting to do the above will not possibly work. Furthermore, if MA learned what you were up to, they'd probably ban your account. Mod parent down.

Re:For Project entropia Item duplication

[GodSpiral]

which is it?,

" do the above will not possibly work"
or
" if MA learned what you were up to, they'd probably ban your account."

Re:For Project entropia Item duplication

[Anonymous Coward]

MA will ban your account so do it on a throw away account.
I have no love for MA, it is mostly a scam. The company periodically makes a grab for the headlines with some sort of made up news when they are trying to shakedown some Asian businessmen for investment capitol.

Oh and if you are reading this Marco B.
Many kisses from the first real super villian in PE
"TEMPEST"

Re:For Project entropia Item duplication

[burnsey]

Some facts about Entropia Universe, formerly Project Entropia Each item ingame has a unique ID to prevent duplication. Items ingame sell for thousands of dollars. The best gun ingame 8-9k USD. The best medical kit ingame 13-15k dollars. There are item tracking sites that track values of items like stocks like www.mytwopecs.com You can own real estate, and tax other players for using it for hunting or mining. Recently three estates sold for 10-20,000 dollars each. You can make between 10-100 dollars a day if not more on these lands. Your virtual items are not owned by the avatars. You basically just have the right to use them. Everything is owned by the company and they retain the right to close your account for any reason at any time. Virtual Theft is a problem in game where trust and defrauded scams have led to many people loosing 3,000-8,000 dollars if not more. There also have been hacked accounts where user's accounts have been emptied of many thousands of dollars worth of items.

Hacking laws?

[giminy]

Will a new set of laws need to be created to cover hacking online currency? It's kind of a grey area -- what is the economic impact of diluting virtual currency that has an exchange rate in the real world? Doesn't seem like it'd fit into the 'normal' counterfeiting mold.

Your friend, the constitution...

[abb3w]

However, I was under the impression that only the US Federal Reserve had the authority and responsibility to coin (or print) money.

Easily relevant sections of the US Constitution and amendments:

The Congress shall have Power [...] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; [...] To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures; To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility;

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

AFAIK, Congress hasn't passed a law requiring the use of US currency for interstate commerce, but there are laws about the use of gambling tokens. Certainly a State couldn't make an MMORPG with money; however, since almost all companies are incorporated under state law, that might make the basis for problems. (Non-US companies may be in a different boat, such as Blizzard?) And I suppose that one could make the case since that the power to "coin" money on being prohibited to the states is reserved to the people (although I've never understood the wording or working of Amendment X; IAmNotALawyer).

Of course, since Congress can regulate the value of "foreign" currencies, that would imply that Congress could pass laws defining how MMORPG currencies could be converted for tax purposes.... hopefully as "of zero value". But given the average congresscritter, I doubt anything so sensible would happen, and have no intention of pointing this out to any elected official until the IRS has already done something stupid.

Allow Me To Clarify

[umbrellasd]

The point of tying virtual economies to real ones is that the truth will out. And the truth is that 99% of what people do in the real world and get paid for is a pointless waste of time. There are certainly people out there that are really do things, but for every such person there are 10 freeloaders pulling down an enormous salary to fuck around.

Now we just see some honesty. Playing WoW 24/7 is a pointless waste of time, and the more people you have that agree on a particular waste of time as meaningful, the more currency. Currency = current interest of society. Why not have real compensation for people frittering away hours on an entertaining diversion? I've seen the same thing every day for years in the workplace.

If you are a working chap like myself, head down to a mall some day during business hours and just sit and watch for a couple hours and marvel at the efficiency with which we line consumerbot pockets. Some fellow is sitting at his 9-5 job watching the clock tic-toc while 1 to 5 other people are out mindlessly pouring the earnings back into the feedback loop.

And around and around it goes.

Having been the 9-5 tic-toc guy (post-college), one of his consumerbots (pre and during college), and a mindless gamer (all along), I can say, they're all the same hat. Without legislation, an unregulated virtual economy will ultimately find balance with the real economies because it is always a balance of time for money. If you have a working bloke that would invest 36 hours to get Cruel Hammer of +Infinity^2 Ass Kicking--and he can do that because the real economy lined his pocket with enough money that he can piss away 36 leisure hours on a collection of bits off in the ether--and there's no obstacle to him instead spending 2 hours of his salary to get it, well he's not an idiot and he's probably and addict so it's just simple numbers. Lower cost and faster gratification = that hammer is worth real money because I'd spend real time to get it.

We spend money on things we want. If they are scarce (because of supply or because of the high cost in time to obtain) we pay more. The more addicted people are to virtual worlds, the closer in parity virtual goods will come to real goods. If you spend more than 50% of your time in a virtual world, it is your real world or it would be, if only you could pay your bills there.

Well someday you probably can. Some people do now.

Honestly, I think virtual worlds will set us free and give us the strongest dose of reality check we've ever experienced. After a while you notice that you are valuing utterly imaginary things above actual real things and then you start thinking, "Well, Jesus. What is the value of real things? Maybe the 'real' things in my life aren't even real. Maybe the real things I bought are just as hollow as so many bits on the ether. Maybe that's a problem that I should address."

Or maybe it won't turn out that way for most. My perspective: there's as much virtual crap at the local shopping mall as there is in the Flavor of the Year online game. It's all the same hat.

Re:Allow Me To Clarify

[idesofmarch]

You may have somewhat of a point, but come on, you cannot mean that 99% of what we do is a waste of time. Do not underestimate the ability of the free market system to weed out inefficiencies.

Re:...and we thought the dot com bubble burst was

[LordPhantom]

Nevermind the potential for GM/Corporate Fraud - Unlike 'real' world property, the virtual world property is under the jurisdiction of the company you're buying access from - how much do YOU trust the folks running WOW to play fair?

The only other solution is government regulations to virutal game rules and that should alternately make your head spin and cause you to retch.

Yuck.

Perfect for Illegal Aliens IMHO

[TheNarrator]

In My Humble Opinion....I would guess that one's undocumented day laborers might not be able to get a bank account but they could get a Project Entropia account. The key to all this is that direct transfers between parties do not occur and instead go through the PED intermediary currency which obscures who is paying whom and is the cause of all the mischief.

Multiple problems here.

[Gno]

1.You could launder money like hell through this. 2.I have multiple friends addicted to online rpgs. They would empty their wallets in kess than a second into this thing creating a new type of addiction. Connecting this to real world money is BAD IDEA. Games are in essence just games. Life is life. People whom get into this may be worse than crack addicts. 3.who the hell is going to pay real money for an intangeble item. Most of theese things are less than 1KB of data! 4.More jobs from your home would create a much more obeese america. By 2010 the projected rate of obesity in america is 2 out of 3 Note: I am a pc gamer i don't even own a console. I am writing this from the angle of your average person. I do understand that people will pay for this shit. don't yell at me for ingnorance

from a player

[Anonymous Coward]

PE is pretty much a fancy poker table. players deposit real world cash to hunt mobs or mine for resources. you can loot PED, in game currency, or items from mobs through hunting and you can gather resources from mining.

Almost every item has a base value which you can trade it in for. Say you loot a gun worth 20 PED and you don't want it you can trade it at the terminal for 20 PED. This gives a nice base for all items as the terminal will always offer the same for an item depending on its condition. If someone wants to buy it from you they're going to have to pay over TT for it to be worth your while. Thats the basic jist of it anyway.

The rl cards should be easy enough to implement cause just like a bank has to check you have enough available funds before authorizing any transactions, MA would need to check your account. Its actualy a pretty good idea and I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the online poker places doing the same thing.

And for the people wondering if you can make a living? Doubtful but if you don't run around with a massive gun and have a bit of luck you shouldn't have to deposit all that much.

The forums are full of useful info for the curious;
www.entropiaforum.com

boab

Re:...and we thought the dot com bubble burst was

[IflyRC]

True

What happens if there is a dispute? Do you take it up with your bank? The gaming company? Does it go to court or arbitration? Game companies are not governments and should never be governments. Governments are not game companies and should never be game companies. (Ok, so the US Army games are pretty cool...but thats not really what I'm saying).

And then..

[Anonymous Coward]

And then a server/your inventory/avatar was hacked/DDoS'ed/killed/$disaster.. with a backup that could not be restored. *poof* says your virtual money ;-o

(I wonder if the SecondLife client would echo "Terrorists Win" in that case !?!)

Next PR Stunt from MindArk

[RealBothersome]

Well I was wondering what the next PR stunt from MindArk was going to be.

They seem to come up with about two per year.

If you're thinking about getting involved in this "Virtual Universe", you should know that there are many times more losers than winners. And to make a withdrawel to your bank account is a minimum of $10 US. And it can take up to 90 business days to happen. Not 90 days but 90 days that the banks are open.

Anyone interested should do a lot of research first.

Amazing things will happen soon. You just wait.

[Netw0rkAssh0liates]

Remember that arcade machine within Doom3? Yeah, I'm talking about Super Turbo Turkey Puncher. If you play it long enough, then you'll get game credits within the game of a game. And then when enough credits are collected within that game of a game, you need to buy an oxygen tank in the real world (Doom3) before this next feat: push the arcade machine on its side or put a grenade underneath it...BAMN! Now you have access to the Mars. Run down the cliff, to the right. You should find a small cave. You need to start the reactor before you run out of air. You may need to fight Howser, which I hear is now the Governor of the State of California, but you took the Red Pill! After the reactor starts, the physics of the real world will fade from your reality in the real world (Doom3) and Morpheus will try to induct you into his fake world called Super Turbo Turkey Puncher Land! Don't trust Morpheus, he's just a program/agent within the Matrix that tries to induct "failing crop" into an alternative reality within the Real World (Doom3) that only gives them the New World perspective of having been delivered from a fake reality and into a new one. Knowing Morpheus, he'll have you believe you're on a floating Citizenship to some dying world and you will forever be the Chef flipping Turkey-burgers that taste like Oatmeal. Do you realy want that? You've been warned! You took that Red Pill once already, now Take the Blue Pill within Morpheus' reality!

Sincerily,
  Bob Trevend (on lunch break, at Console 3), Network Associates

Am I the first to state...

[ajpr]

That the Virtual World net assets will inevitably become more valuable than Real World (tm) assets?

Does this seem like a bad idea to anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

This seems like a bad idea to me. It strikes me as comparable to arcade tokens in that they're only worth money to people who would want to go to the arcade. Who would value this currency that's "backed" by virtual items? It seems that it would only be of worth to someone who owns the game...

Games aren't always about escaping reality

[necro2607]

Games aren't always about escaping reality - in fact, they are often about experiencing some OTHER reality, which may very well have some very definite similarities to "our" reality. :)

Maybe not banks...

[Jeff Molby]

Banks may be specifically excluded by law (I don't know; I'm taking your word for it), but there's no reason other organizations can't attempt to issue psuedo-currency.

It may or may not be a good idea. It may or may not catch on. Doesn't mean it can't be attempted.

Re:Maybe not banks...

[lgw]

Well, a few people have been arrested for using Liberty Dollars, but so far it seems the cases are much like Woz being held for "passing" 2-dollar bills: misundertanding leading to accusations of counterfeiting. Of course, Woz had it coming, and it was probably a mistake by NORFED to call them "dollars" (but then, if they called them "ounces" thed have to be up-front about how very little silver the coins contain). Given that NORFED is pretty openly advocating tax-avoidance, there is trouble sure to come.

Owning gold is currently legal in the US, but it has been illegal in my lifetime. Private currencies are an odd corner of the law - the only safe bet is to not be taken seriously by the government, e.g. Emperor Norton, who made his own money and had it accepted by local shops. WoW is pretty safe in this regard, at least for another generation.

Monopoly??

[Anonymous Coward]

Excuse my ignorance, but is the only way to "repair" your items is to pay Mindark? What is stopping others from offering a cheaper repair service? Oh yeah, MindArk, a "virtual" monopoly.

Now, have SOE do it

[Anonymous Coward]

Would be nice to convert my 150 million or so SWG credits, and my 20 million MxO info to real cash... There's this place in Martha's Vinyard I've had my eye on

Form 1040VR, 1a "Farmer Cost Adjustment"

[Anonymous Coward]

What is the "fair market value" for a +15 sword of the undead?
Take the price of the average item from a farmerbot, and divide by 2. Divide by 3 if server population is over 80% farmerbots. Divide by 4 if server is overrun with raidfarmers (who end up monopolizing raids at blessing of company), divide by 10 after any other divisions if the company actively supports them (e.g. CNSoft).

Multiply by 0.75 if farmers are penalized and item comes from an actual player.

Leave unchanged if server employs and fully enforces farmerbot restrictions (such as, but not limited to: no penalty if farmerbot country players are killed, character penalties for coming from a farmerbot country and setting up shop, no safezones for known farmerbots regardless of country, bonuses for killing farmerbots, purchasers of services marked, active GM presence)

Manufacture Money

[LeeMeador]

In some ways, every time a bank makes a loan, some money gets manufactured.

The bank is limited, in the US, by banking rules that say they can lend up to so many times the amount they hold in deposits. I image similar rules apply in every country.

When they make a loan, they write you a check or increase the balance in your account or wire money somewhere. To do that they either transfer money they control in someone else's account or they borrow from the Federal Reserve system or some other financial entity.

If it doesn't get hidden by the time it takes to transfer the money all over the country, it becomes a credit that isn't balanced by cash but by the knowledge that the Fed is good for it.

The end result is that there is more money in circulation than there was before you borrowed the money. You can write a check for your new car or house or business purchase and the money just moves around in the system. It only disappears as you take your income and reduce the loan and then only as the total of all loans from any particular "bank" exceeds their deposits.

If you look in the Wall Street Journal you can see the amount of such money but I forget what it is called.

I have nothing to worry about...

[rolandog]

I'll just 'hire' a couple of 'assistants'...

Can you gamble in this virtual world?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can gamble with fake money, and withdraw REAL money, sign me up!

What teh company has to say on this

[Anonymous Coward]

A few things from MindArk's website:

Mr. Welter said that MindArk software engineers had been working on the A.T.M. project for years, and that they had finally developed a system secure enough to allow instant verification and cash authorization. He said his company was in contact with the Swedish government, and that systems were in place to prevent money laundering and other potential abuses.

and:

He said that MindArk had never been asked about the game by the Internal Revenue Service or United States law-enforcement agencies.

Gift Card

[mpapet]

This is no different than a gift card, only the currency is generated somehow online.

Now, if there's ever a game to crack, this is the one because the bad guy makes real money.

The unintended effect is creating a dual currency system. Though national regulations may/may not explicitely forbid this, you will find Treasuries the world over putting a stop to this.

It will make what happened to Napster a proverbial walk in the park.

More predicitions, and good ones.

[kadathseeker]

Metaverse, here we come! http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/games/wowworld .html

I think I'll skip this Entropia thing, btw. It DOES sound like a casino.

Genuine offer!!!

[gijoel]

Hello my name is Tunde Bamake and my friend Lord Druska needs your help.

Recently my friends and I were adventuring in the Karazhan Tower, when they were attacked and killed by lots and lots of monsters. It was a dreadful thing and now they are all restless spirits.

My friend had 10,000,000gp TEN MILLION GP in his gnomish bank account at Ironforge. Please my friend, as a human I beg you to help my friend Lord Druska.

Because he is dead he can not buy a resurrection spell, and he can not either access the gps in his account. All that he asks is that he can transfer 10,000,000gps TEN MILLION GPS into your account and then on to the priest who will cast the spell.

This requires absolutely no effort from your self. My friend Lord Durska understands what an effort this is for you and so will give you 250,000gps TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND GPS to you if you help him.

Please my friend, I beg you as a human to help my friend Lord Durska and let him transfer his gps into your account.

OT.. a bit..

[zippthorne]

Not really on topic, but I happened to be listening to "The suits are picking up the bill" by Squirrel Nut Zippers while reading your post. And it went.. well.

exchange rate and flooz

[Optikschmoptik]

TFA:

Ten PEDs are the equivalent to one US dollar.

So this is a fixed exchange rate, like the Chinese Renminbi. Is this like saying the virtual experience is always worth 1/10th of the actual one? Are there pricing fluctuations in the PED that would suggest it is under/over-valued?

On that note, another SD article mentioned how Flooz was put out of business by $300,000 worth of virutal credit charged to fake accounts. This PED virtual economy sounds a little more robust, but that doesn't seem to rule out the possibility of large-scale fraud from criminals in countries where the real-world rules won't get enforced. What's a Flooz worth now? And what will a PED be worth if someone rips them off, or someone else designs a better universe in a year or two?

Just "what" is "real money" ???

[gd23ka]

Going from the idea that virtual money ceases to exist once you pull the plug of the computer
what about those "real dollars" in your pocket, what happens to them when you pull the plug on
the Federal Reserve? This has happened before and Federal Reserve Notes literally weren't worth the
paper they are printed on. There simply was nowhere you could redeem them in the Great Depression.

Real money is something that can not be canceled or devalued by a third party and is always redeemable
for goods. Precious metals you have in your posession (i.e. not rented out or put into safekeeping by
a third party) fall into that category. Anything else can (and will) be tampered with even the legendary
dollar on the gold standard many want to go back to (a dollar redeemable for a fixed amount of gold
that is kept in a vault). They could easily either stop redeeming dollar bills for gold or they could
also start the printing presses whenever they feel like it.

The point of becoming wealthy

[CrimeaRiver]

The point of becoming wealthy is to dabble in useless things.

I thought the point of becoming wealthy was to get laid by beautiful women.