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U.S. to Gain Access to EU Retained Data
shenanigans writes "After the EU recently ratified controversial data retention laws for ISPs and other telecommunication companies, it now looks like the US government will get full access to the data. From the article: 'US authorities can get access to EU citizens' data on phone calls, sms and emails, giving a recent EU data-retention law much wider-reaching consequences than first expected'. Apparently, the US has been calling members of the EU to 'ensure that the data collected [...] be accessible to them'."
We know no country in the world misses a chance to be US's little bitch.
Those who do, get attacked.
Excellent!!!
But don't worry, the US Government would never abuse that information! That would be unethical. That's why everyone in the US is so pleased with the President and his national security policies.
The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
I'm sure with a track record like the Bush Administration's, with domestic wiretapping, indefinite detentions and torture, acts of aggression and brinkmanship against sovereign nations, lying to the U.N., and managing to convince the majority of Americans that this was all incidental, that this access to data won't be abused. After so many mistakes, they've surely learnt their lessons now.
"President George Bush did not deny the allegations in a television statement last night, but insisted that his administration had not broken any laws."
Nixon would be proud.
"You're everywhere. You're omnivorous."
That's the key phrase. The FBI, Scotland Yard and other equivalent government police forces already share data of this nature. (IE large bank transactions, criminal histories, etc)
Country A can't spy on its own citizens (legally), but country B can (because they are "foreigners"). Country B can't spy on its own citizens (legally), but country A can (because they are "foreigners"). Gee, I wonder how they'll solve that problem?
I'm starting to think I should just set up a web page and post my photograph, fingerprints, blood type, DNA records, phone conversations, credit-card, passport, travel history, social-security numbers, and real-time GPS coordinates. It would save alot of hassle and expense.
I have to apologize for the US. I didn't vote for Bush!
Every time I think that the US comes out on top on violating basic rights to privacy, some country in the EU outdoes us. You'd think with such a rich history of war, the citizens would know better.
how it's no big deal when your European governments retain data on you because you know that they'd never misuse it.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Ohhhhh...no. No fucking way. This is some kind of joke, right? Because if not, the fact that the US government is not only willing to fuck over its own citizens but also to use its political largesse to dick with everyone else is just about enough for me to start condoning terrorism. This is essentially what this is, really - the implicit threat behind all of this smells terribly badly. I was already pissed off more than enough by the EU wanting to implement this in the first place.
I would bet that the only way Europe would agree to this is if the US agreed to pass similar retention laws and allowed European access to that data.
Although I am certain most of those Europeans who will have their liberties trampled by this will be quick to blame the big bad U.S.A. and our leaders (I am an A.C. from the U.S.) who were elected by the backwards, ignorant masses, it may be best to question why the enlightened leaders of Europe have been allowed by their forward thinking and proactive constituency to enact such data retention laws in the first place. At least we in the United States were not the first to require this pre-emptive collection of evidence without any indication of unlawful activity (although we may not be far behind).
should absolutly try to solve this kind of problems together with our American fellows, since in a global world a problems for someone is also going to be a problem of all. I mean, please let's not start Yet Another Flamewar about EU vs USA.
Wondering why i am doing so strange posts? I am trying to get a "+5,Flamebait" or "-1,Insightful" rating.
And fucken Amerikan politizians. Come to Europe, we'll share love and whisper sweet words in your ear.
US authorities can get access to EU citizens' data on phone calls, sms' and emails, giving a recent EU data-retention law much wider-reaching consequences than first expected, reports Swedish daily Sydsvenskan.
... agreements" the notes said.
The EU data retention bill, passed in February after much controversy and with implementation tabled for late 2007, obliges telephone operators and internet service providers to store information on who called who and who emailed who for at least six months, aimed at fighting terrorism and organised crime.
A week later on 2-3 March, EU and US representatives met in Vienna for an informal high level meeting on freedom, security and justice where the US expressed interest in the future storage of information.
The US delegation to the meeting "indicated that it was considering approaching each [EU] member state to ensure that the data collected on the basis of the recently adopted Directive on data retention be accessible to them," according to the notes of the meeting.
Representatives from the Austrian EU presidency and from the European Commission said that these data were "accessible like any other data on the basis of the existing
The EU representatives added that the commission would convene an expert meeting on the issue.
Under current agreements, if the FBI, for example, is interested in a group of EU citizens from a member state who are involved in an investigation, the bureau can ask for help with a prosecutor in that member state.
The national prosecutor then requests telephone operators and internet service providers for information, which is then passed on to the FBI.
This procedure opens the way for US authorities to get access under the EU data-retention law, according to the Swedish newspaper.
In the US itself meanwhile, fury has broken out in the US congress after reports revealed that the Bush administration covertly collected domestic phone records of tens of millions of US citizens since the attacks in New York on 11 September 2001.
President George Bush did not deny the allegations in a television statement last night, but insisted that his administration had not broken any laws.
Not all conservatives are stupid,
but it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
- Hume
...where I get fucking pissed at those incompetent fools in office.
As far as I'm concerned that data shouldn't even exist at the disposal of my own country, let alone foreign interests.
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
Lovely. I can only imagine the crap we will hear the coming days:
We are assured that this data will only be used for the war on terrorism... Nothing to worry fellow EU citizens.
I for one hope that people will massively start to complain about this. But seeing the public reaction to the NSA spying, they probably won't.
I guess it's time for us, EU people, to start complaining and let them know this is NOT acceptable.
Finally, a step in the right direction! After years of fucking with our own citizens, we're finally reaching out and fucking with somebody else's.
Hey, at least we're not violating our own constitution on this one.
After the EU recently ratified controversial data retention laws for ISPs and other telecommunication companies
"I have altered the bargain. Pray I do not alter it further."
- Darth Vader
We Have found the terrorists and they are US.
I know that a lot of people will disagree, but I think this is actually an argument in favor of a strong EU, rather than the other way around. If EU citizens got their act together and created more grass roots pressure groups to put pressure on Brussels, it would be easier to keep a united europe from being arm twisted by the US rather than so many small countries. Just remember how much respect the US has had for Danish wishes to keep Greenland a nuclear free zone...Or how much heed was paid to Blair's request to have steel import quotas not be applied to the UK in spite of the fact that he went out on a limb for them engaging his country in an illegal invasion on what were clearly false pretenses. Remember how Blair wanted token US participation in the climate change conference so as not to appear to come home empty handed? How much deference did he win on that one?
The fact is that to have your voice heard, you need to be an effective counterweight, and pack some clout. This doesn't mean that everything has to be turned into a childish pissing-contest, the way it so often is, but that you need to have enough clout to have your wishes taken into account in bilateral relations
It is EU citizens' responsibility to have this sort of policy reverted at the EU level, not the US's (just as it is US citizens who have to deal with the NSA's very liberal interpretation of wiretap laws...), but once a decision has been taken, the EU has more of a chance of having it be respected that a country with some 5 million inhabitants on its own, just like washington is taken more seriously at the international level than, say, Iowa would on its own.
EU-wide NGO's and parties are still in their infancy. I really hope they get their act together sooner rather than later, people too often forget that reverting any democratic deficit in the institutions has a lot to do with effectively using the conduits available. Democracy is a process you can't expect to get anything out of if you're not willing to put something into it.
Slashdot: news from nerds.
As far as the U.S. being in league with European Intelligence is possibly a good thing. If we had worked in a truly symbiotic relationship with international intelligence before, we may not have an unpopular
Actually I think I speak I speak for many fellow europeans when I say this is making matters worse. Of course the vastly bigger portion of contempt is directed at the Brussel administration and it's unending brown-tonging. Fucking sellouts!
If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?
And how do you know that hasn't already happened?
Do you really think they'd make such a development public, rather than classifying it as "undisclosed for reasons of national security"?
The purpose of "national security" used to be to protect the citizens from foreign agents. Now it's merely a political tool to protect the politicians from their own citizens.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
...the sound of mobile phones and computers being crushed to bits. ...coming to a garbage truck NEAR YOU.
How long does this sick comedy have to go on before people decide it is time to kick all their stuff into the bin and go live in a cottage somewhere out in the woods with only the most basic amenities, keeping only a PO Box number for the bare essential communications?
I'm getting really pissed at the Powers That Be for pulling their virtual torture ropes ever tighter around privacy and personal liberty.
Soon people will decide that "Amish Paradise" is actually at a much more comfortable distance away from the proverbial Hell than the other alternatives.
(Kudos to Weird Al for making me borrow his song title.)
The Hacker's Guide To The Kernel: Don't panic()!
- punching americans in the face when I see them.
- stop using private phone, and rely heavily on encrypted communication via internet instead.
No, There is nothing allowing USA to see where I fucking call. A court locally may do shit but YOU ein't getting shit from me.
...is a threat to national security.
Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions
They hate us because of our freedom!
So the solution, of course, is to take away our freedom.
Apparently, the US has been calling members of the EU to 'ensure that the data collected [...] be accessible to them'."
How can the USA possibly claim to be a part of the European Union? United Nations, sure. But I, as a European, always thought that the EU was restricted to you know... European nations.
That said - Blair, being the poodle he is bends over for Bush it seems. Blair was probably all for this policy just because his mate George said it would be 'Really, really good.'
...since this planet seems more unlivable day by day.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
Only in America, the land of the free, can the government illegally spy on your phone calls, internet activity, and reading habits, and get away with it. Hell according to some poll, American citizens are OK with it. In my eyes it's treason what the gov't is doing. If this is the land of the free then why do I have to worry about what I'm saying on the phone when I'm talking to my friend about buying a firearm? Just the phrase "Let's go shooting today" can get me on a red list? Please.
I love my country, not my gov't.
That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
I've lost all faith in everyone, I can't wait until somebody invents teleporters and then they can beam me out of my house as soon as they think I might try and do something illegal.
I know you're being sarcastic, but can I remind you this is information collected on people who have committed no crime, for which there's no warrant.
Reasonable search?
Come on, they are terrorists, they are dumb, right? The only reason why they attack anybody is because they are evil, right? Plluuuueeeaaasssee.
I'd be surprised if with all this data retention and spying (both US and EU) there will be single terrorist caught *before* the act.
Guess how many terrorists have been caught by the London camera network - which was installed to track down terrorists. If you guessed "zero" you'd 100% correct. Instead that very camera network is now used to keep track of every vehicle that enters the inner city on London.
Somehow through the EU politicians get away with things that would be doomed to fail in any memberstate - well, maybe except Great Britain.
I wish we would gather the same kind of energy to fight poverty, and other more pressing social issues.
So who's the one not respecting privacy rights, the robber or the one who asks to share the robber's take? Of course it's easier to carp over the other guy, than come to terms that the EU is at least, if not more paternalistic than the US. All the privacy laws seem to rigidly control what individuals and companies can do but pretty much give a free pass the the governments. Both are bad for the citizens of the US and the EU. Both point to the other countries policies and say, "See, they do it, so we should too." When both citiens stand firm and pressure their reps to do the right thing, we support each other. Of course, I have no illusions of how easy that is. venril
FOR HEAVENS SAKE WILL THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT - FUCK OFF!!!!! It's no bloody wonder the world wants to stick a bomb under the White House when these paranoid schizophrenic war mongering assholes will not leave you or anyone to live in peace. I beg and plead with every decent United States citizen to do the world a favor and oust these prats from turning everyone against you. Enough is enough - and trust me I will be doing the same on my side of the pond. Long live freedom.
So the solution, of course, is to take away our freedom.
It's the only way to be safe.
If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?
It cannot protect anyone from anything.
All it provides is a statement of beliefs. If you follow those beliefs, then get out and protest the abuses.
In the end, it all comes down to what the people will accept. If you don't want to accept it, then get active working for change.
I live in the EU, so naturally I'm concerned about this.. But: I don't care who reads my sms messages because frankly I expect them to be insecure. My phone calls themselves, yes I worry a little over that because it would enable social networks to be drawn up. But by far the biggest thing I was concerned about was my email, which accounts for well over 90% of my communications.
Then I remembered that I use web based email from a well known search engine who are based in the US. Isn't my data already within US jurisdiction?
(yes, I know TFA is refering to EU-ISP-owned data, but I think it's less of a sudden move than many realise)
It's worked so far. Since Sept. 11 2001, I can't sign up for a new bank account without providing my driver's license and social security card now, and no one has crashed two airplanes into another large building. Coincidence? I think not!
Did anyone else not get this song stuck in their head upon reading this?
But
All this will do is allow the government to find who you were calling after you've blown yourself up. They hope that that will lead them to someone higher up the chain.
It might.
But it is more dangerous because it can be used to track who your political opponents are calling and what they're saying to each other.
Our ForeFathers were willing to die fighting for their Freedom.
Now, our people are willing to surrender their Freedom for the "protection" offered by the government.
...I would actively support any national party whose main policy plank is to separate my country from the European Union.
So, for example, were I British, I would support the Referendum Party (if they still exist).
Maybe European politicians didn't get the message that France and other countries sent by wholeheartedly voting "NO" in the EU consistitution referenda.
This space left intentionally blank.
Looks like the terrorists are winning. Our governments are becoming more corrupt and we are losing our freedoms. Soon, we will be in the same position as those living in the middle east. However, everyone will be wearing shawls over their head and face, not for impropriety concerns, but to hide from the cameras on every street corner that are watching our every movement.
e 334686.ece/ Britain is already on their way to watching every citizen.
Before you say I'm crazy, we'll never be monitored everywhere we go, read this article. http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/articl
Please. If you call from number A to number B for C minutes that information is public already. Not the conversation itself (unless you are on a public phone), but A, B, and C are. Your call was routed over a public network. Don't like it? String a wire between your house and the rest of your cell.
Email is the same way. It got routed. Over a public network. Don't like it? Go string some fiber or set up a microwave dish.
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin
What's happening here? Why don't we se huge revolts soon?
In Soviet Global Counterterrorism Effort:
U.S. gains access to EU!
Just wait until they have a large enough database of DNA for most every civilized countries' citizens, and with that large a sample, enough data to extrapolate the DNA of anyone else on the planet if they wish.
Then if they want to stop an Osama Bin laden, or a future Patrick Henry or Martin Luther King, they won't need to get warrants, hunt them down, and arrest and prosecute and rely on judges and courts...just release a virus custom-tailored to that individuals' DNA and wait for the decaying corpse to be found.
The kicker being they can claim the individual in question died from "natural" causes. God was mad at them for daring to rebel and speak out against those "ordained by God" to rule over us poor unworthy sinners.
Damn, I'm gonna give *myself* nightmares! (shudders)
The more time passes by, the more I hear/read about the way we're headed, the more I want to try and make a difference by going into politics. At the same time I realise that by doing so, the grip of corruption would drag me down. Down to where the rest of the politicians are hanging out. Tell me, how can one man make a real difference?
So... we get your data too, right?
Right...?
I am moving to China.
Result, the US can steamroll across the EU most of the time unless there is some serious money to be made (you don't think for a second that france or germany protested against the invasion of Iraq for ethical reasons do you?)
No, whatever you can say about the US at least they keep their spying internal. The EU allows anyone to spy on its citizens.
When it comes to having dipshit leaders we still rule the world in europe. You think outsourcing is bad? Try outsourcing jobs to countries and then getting the unemployed from those countries into your own. Brilliant! Export jobs and import unemployed people. Only in the EU.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
"We know no country in the world misses a chance to be US's little bitch.
Those who do, get attacked."
Bin Laden's going to bomb Canada?
now?
I can imagine this information sharing being (ab)used as an excuse to 'expedite' European integration. After all, unless we can all spy on each other, the terrorists win, right?
...I would actively support any national party whose main policy plank is to separate my country from the United States of America
"Even though you have a higher chance of dying from car accidents (why don't we ban all cars?), people are scared shitless of terrorists."
A rather meaningless statement without qualifiers. Who has a higher chance? Us? EU? People in Afghanistan, or Rowanda? How about Israel, or Iraq? I hear Saudi Arabia is nice this time of year. Gee I guess we do have nothing to fear from terrorists. Just from a statistical standpoint they're the very picture of restraint. When was the last time a motor vehicle said "I'm going to destroy the great satan"?
That reminds me, I have this magic pebble here that wards off elephants! How do you know it works? Do you see any elephants around here? =)
I'm just waiting to see how far the USA and EU will take this. Yes, both of our socities have gotten apathetic to all of this, but even apathy has its limits. How long until the people get tired of getting pushed around and start to push back en masse? Maybe I'm being idealistic and naive, but it's the only hope I've got that someday soon, Bush will pull a total fuckup out of his ass (As he's known for doing), and his support will get so low he'll be dragged out of office (either literally or metaphorically. Though literal is prefered), if only to send a message to future politicians that this kind of idiocy and manipulation will no longer be tolerated.
Hey, a boy can dream, can't he?
Since Sept. 11 2001, I can't sign up for a new bank account without providing my driver's license and social security card now, and no one has crashed two airplanes into another large building.
Well, maybe not two airplanes...
What?
Don't apologize. Why should be America reponsible? It has been the EU who gave all the data to America, so it's EU who should apologize.
I'm against invasion of privacy just as much as you are but if you use incorrect arguments that'll work against your case. The terrorists from the 2005 London bombings were caught on camera. Not in time to save anyone, but it does help with investigations.
The question that needs to be asked is whether or not the extra security we gain is worth all the rights we're losing. You and I don't think so, but giving incorrect facts will just give people that don't agree an easy way to win the argument against you.
Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.
As Nelson would say: "Haa-Ha".
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
And everyone calls the Chinese evil... personally I don't think web censorship is as bad as "data retention laws"... time to fire up gpg when sending e-mails.
Excuses Are Like Assholes - Everybody's Got One
Doesn't this just mean the US Government will just be now getting "official" access to EU data?
I would guess that a lot of what is now available to them they already have and probably already have data on the data plus more besides.
Time to get darning the foil hat again. Probes ruining perm.
There's already been a fight over data transfer from the EU to the US. EU privacy laws are strict and forbid leaking data to any place without the same protections. There were long negotiations ending in a fudge.
So is the EU simply ignoring the law this time?
Tyldis, you are simply dead wrong! Norway pays peanuts to the EU! Germany annually pays 8.5 billion, little Norway is committed to transferring 1 billion over FIVE years! Not to mention the fact that Germany has ALWAYS been the largest net contributor since the contributions are based upon the size of the economy. Germany's economy is far, far greater than Norways - exactly because they're 80 million people. You, my friend, are misinformed.
4 557.eceo ney/html/who_pays_what.stm
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/article97
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/europe/04/m
Anyone seen that movie? It remindes me of something, but I can't really nail it down.
Oddly enough, the article actually contradicts itself. At the top it says that " US authorities can get access to EU citizens' data on phone calls, sms' and emails" - if you read the article itself, it says that while the US has *requested* this, it hasn't yet actually happened.
Instead of people spending all their time wondering why we aren't doing anything to stop Dubya from setting up his 1000 Year Empire, they can take a moment to think about what they are doing to stop their own countries from capitulating to everything the U.S. demands.
you don't think for a second that france or germany protested against the invasion of Iraq for ethical reasons do you?
There were numerous reasons, one of them was possibly the fact that the Franco-German leaders (or more likely their intelligence staff) took a long hard look at the 'evidence' provided by the Bush adminstration and decided it was not worth the paper it was printed on. The politicians then concluded that they would be lynched by their own electorate the moment it came out that they had sent men to die in Iraq to save the world from their WMD's only to to discover afterwards that the Iraquis were not sitting on the mountain of Gas shells and Bio weapons cannisters as they put the finishing touches on their volumous collection of Atom bombs ready for launch against targets in Israel and even as far away as Europe inside of 45 minutes as the USA and UK claimed they were. In the US and UK people may forgive such fuckups and continue electing the people who made those mistakes but that doesn't mean that people elsewhere are that tolerant about their sons being sent to die for no apparent reason. Keep in mind that the tolerance threshold, in Germany in particular, for politicians who send men to die on the strength of lies and lousy evidence is very, very low and has been ever since the last world war. Other reasons probably included the fact that the French in particular had a very good relationship with Saddam dating back to the first Gulf war and they weren't likely to be popular with whoever the US handed over the country to with disastrous financial results for French businesses. Finally Schröder and Chirac probably realized that there is acutally political milage to be gained by telling the US to go stick it where the sun don't shine.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
The ironic thing is that when Nixon was in office, the far right despised him.
Under Data Protection regulations, processing of data outside the EU must be permitted by the Data Protection Registrar in the first instance, and notified to subjects in the organisation's privacy policy.
Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
Clearly 9/11 was more successful that its mastermind could ever dream, 5 years on and still the ripples are as strong as ever.
Come as you are, do what you must, be who you will.
Bush and Co have done a great job advertising for terrorists.
Should have read...
Bush and Co has done a great job being terrorists.
Get your Unix fortune now!
Personally I think more of The Clash and "I'm so bored of the USA".
dons tinfoil hat
One step closer to a global government, Time to clean up the bomb shelters....
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not entirely sure about the universe - Einstein
... my country has not yet joined the EU, it's time for a rather big FUCK YOU, GOVERNMENT OF THE USA.
This is nothing new, just a further encroachment of the existing ECHELON method of surveillance -- once of the primary reasons for ECHELON was so that allies could ask each other to spy on their citizens for them. Gets around all those pesky regulations that prevent various agencies from spying on their own citizens.
ERROR 144 - REBOOT ?
We are glad you have chosen to be assimilated into our police state. I can assure you that our Great Leader will not let you down. You'll feel more secure than ever before. Faith, Unity, Strength!
I hereby dare to remind you of the 18th Amendment, its ignoble life, side-effects, and its death by the 21st Amendment. Then fastforward a bit, and look at the War On Selected Drugs, and its effects.
Prohibitions of any kind won't work.
The EU has more strict rules than the US in privacy. I doubt the EU would hand in its citizens log information to a foreign country.
Which the govt people can nicely exploit in recruiting new agents ("rat on your friends, or else..."), such kind of pressure was commonly used by various State Security forces in the communist bloc.
Which aims the limelight at the insanities of the Drug War. What's wrong on an occassional joint once per a while, when even presidents did it, inhaling or not - and why another enjoyable and similarly dangerous substance, eg. whiskey, remains legal? Why the cowboyish belief that if the problem can not be pushed away with force, the only thing required is more force?
However, as you may be a teetotaller, other concerns may be closer to home for you. Investigative journalists, working on causes unfriendly to the govt people or their cronies. Offshore corporations with trade secrets that would benefit other corporations, this time within the US (cue ECHELON, and the two publicized affairs involving Boeing and Raytheon as beneficiaries). All sorts of critics of the status quo who would be better silenced. Figuring out who was a whistleblower in just-another-highprofile-affair and unleashing revenge upon his head - with suitable publicity, so his would-be followers won't succumb to the temptation. Finding out how to discredit that little old lady who valiantly fights the attempts to oust her from her house (which so inconveniently stands in the approximate location of the cheeses section of a WalMart-to-be), and gains unhealthy popularity with her neighbors. Or finding in the future that you called that shady dealer and bought a HDCP stripper so you could watch new movies on your old plasma TV. Or that you cheated on your taxes by conveniently omitting listing those barters with your neighbors as taxable income.
It's by far not only about drugs.
Or do you believe your government will never abuse these resources? That J. Edgar Hoover, or Richard Nixon, or Joe McCarthy and the droves of their ilk were just a historical fiction?
Which is absolutely none of their business. If the US wants to meddle into affairs of European citizens, then I, a European, demand to have at least a partial vote in the next US elections, and the right to issue FOIA requests. Either don't meddle in my affairs, or let me vote there. Why should there be any middle ground?
That whole terrorism thing tho? Just a jewish conspiracy! Ignore it!
That whole terrorism thing is overblown by both the politicians, whom it gives scared population that is easier to manipulate to allow being more easily controlled and/or sent to unnecessary wars, and the media, whom it gives scared population that is easier to manipulate to consume more junk news and enjoy the ultimate reality show known as "war".
Besides, who paid the Contras in Nicaragua, supported the death squads in El Salvador, and armed UNITA in Angola? If these organizations aren't terrorists, why it is not a double standard?
Terrorism is pretty much at the rock bottom of the list of death causes. The level of resources spent on fighting it already went over the point of diminishing returns, and the money wasted there would be better spent on setting up and maintaining more robust and redundant infrastructure, especially in the current age of angry weather, and better health care. Because my family, despite of the unremitting drumming of the Mass Media, enjoys a significantly higher risk of a flood, car crash, or a cardiovascular issue than of coming within visual contact with anything remotely resembling terrorism. Tell me, please, why should I be scared?
For further elaboration of the issue I suggest the book "Beyond Fear", by Bruce Schneier.
Ultimately this will end like the US-EU air passenger data deal - with no data being turned over.
What's better: useless government, or outright dangerous government?
What brand of diplomacy do you consume that you can propose not only to make all Americans happy, but the entire world happy.. all the while relieving yourself of any authority or force..
What about leadership by example? Or is it an obsoleted concept, and the modus operandi today is to shove the megacorporations-hijacked "democracy" down peoples' throats, with lies and tanks and laser-guided bombs if required?
What you want is people worldwide respecting USA. What you are getting now is people worldwide fearing USA. See the subtle difference?
If your industry practiced more prudent approach to natural resources, you won't have to conquer and plunder other countries. Why can't Detroit make a truly fuel-efficient car, which in combination with Fischer-Tropsch biomass-to-liquid process (Monsanto and Exxon could star here) may have prevented you from being shot at in sand now?
Don't get me wrong here, I want Americans to be happy; I got too many friends there to not care. But that won't happen while your government will use the planet as their property; that will only bring resentment against anything American in the rest of the world and will get you shot at.
And no, more wiretaps won't make it any better.
It is not about the war on terror or even the war on dugs.
See my journal, I write things there
>That reminds me, I have this magic pebble here that wards off elephants! How do you know it works? Do you see any elephants around here? =)
How much do you want for that pebble?
When this arrangement was made, this was exactly the predicted outcome. So its literally no suprise.
What is a suprise is that the citizens (and subjects) of EU countries don't say a word about it, or not enough to make their elected representatives worry they'll lose their place a trough if they don't change things.
Nearly the entire population of the world is the enemy of the US government. Their only friends are those who have bought the influence or religious ideology of the seriously unbalanced lunatics that have assumed power. Every time the US preaches about 'democracy' and 'human rights' to people living outside the evil empire, we have to laugh. We are not the ones with torture camps, and what is effectively one party corporate governance. We are not the ones where every senator or congressman is religious, or at least, claims to be. We are not the ones where every presidential candiate has millions, and will spend millions to get power. The US constitution was a wonderful piece of legislation that protects the rights of Americans. Stand up for it, or Republicans/'Democrats' will trample your rights and continue the evolution of the US empire into an even more terrible and abusive regime. America is such a terribly insular country. Don't fear the outside world, or different cultures. It is empathy that makes us human, and leads to a society that does not dissolve into chaos. One needs empathy in foreign policy if one does not want to become a piriah state like the USA. Just because the US government doesn't directly kill (that many) Americans in America, doesn't mean that you shouldn't stand up for the rights of those that the US government is murdering elsewhere.
We should all use encryption to keep these Nazis and their Zionist Fascist wiretapping allies (who own the company that has the contract for violations of privacy) out of our email. Personally, I boycott all US goods where possible. I am just copying the US government's policy of economic terrorism that they choose to use against countries that they can't control.
I am already so pissed off with the status quo and my inability to make a difference within the framework that I am willing to use "illegal" methods. If the polis try to take my DNA, I will consider that assault and will beat the crap out of them. If I see Prescott, I'll smack him in the mouth. Tony I'll kick in the balls.
I'm *really* pissed off.
There are others, but not enough to be safe showing the government that the people have the power and lease it to the government at our convenience.
Or is this a one way deal?
Why? I've read the article, European parliament report on Echelon and I'm afraid i've never found any favour back from the US. Some of the european partners have enjoyed an access to the US network on their own soil...But under the US supervision.
Just like they are free to move their "classified" prisonners from Germany to Romania. Even if it breaks every single articles of the European Human rights chart.
The US is the biggest European power and act accordingly.
We are all citizens from second class countries under a moderate foreign rule. If we use the XIXth vocabulary, I guess you may consider us as dominions.
I still prefer US underground activites than the "laissez faire" approach that terrorists have enjoyed for decades in countries like the UK, Belgium or Germany. A repulsive coktail of "real politik",cowardice and hypocrisy.
I sincerily doubt that my phone calls to my mother would be of any interest for the US government...I have already some difficulties to be interested anyway.
Olivier
If you aren't doing anything wrong, what do you have to hide?
Monitoring Europeans is part of our war against terrorism. When the terrorists are defeated our monitoring of you will be credited as a tool for preserving the coming peace.
Your desire for freedom from surveillance inevitably means slavery under Islam.
The treasonous media that exposes these acts by the Government must be punished. America's national security depends on your ignorance of the anti terrorism activities our leaders are carring out to preserve America's strength as a free nation.
Your desire for freedom is a dire threat to our national security and that, sir, makes you an unlawful combatant. Your post has been forwarded to the DHS, FBI, NSA, CIA, and FOX.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
Clinton vs. Bush
Bill Clinton: Impeached for lying about his private, personal affairs.
George W. Bush: The Bush defense is that the Planet-sized lies are so outrageous
("Oil has nothing to do with the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan"), the untruths are totally unbelievable,
even to the people of lowest intelligence (such as Fox news viewers, or intelligent design anti-science groups).
It's only a matter of time before illegal aliens are deported to France 'to do the jobs frenchmen don't want to do.'
The new USA-France joint program will get a happy sounding name such as 'Humanitarian Economic Relocation'.
They hate us because of our freedom!
Why exactly would someone hate someone else because of their freedom (whatever that actually means in practice)? This is often wheeled out as a mantra but makes little sense.
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
What's missing here, is the removal of the Data Ombudsman, who in the EU had full powers to investigate the lot AND correct INCORRECT data.
By all means, share data, but the careless twits who collect for no reason, other than because they can, deserve whats coming to them.
Today is the day you made a Democrat out of me. I never thought it would happen...... =(