Voyager 2 Detects Peculiar Solar System Edge

ClickOnThis writes "CNN reports that Voyager 2 has detected evidence of the magnetic edge of the solar system (aka the heliopause) at 76 AU (1 AU = 93 million miles), much closer to the Sun than the location of 85 AU found by Voyager 1. From the article: 'This implies that the heliosphere, a spherical bubble of charged low-energy particles created by our Sun's solar wind, is irregularly shaped, bulging in the northern hemisphere and pressed inward in the south. [...] The researchers think that the heliosphere's asymmetry might be due to a weak interstellar magnetic field pressing inward on the southern hemisphere.'"

Comments

I knew it

[sidfaiwu]

I have been living in a bubble all my life.

Re:I knew it

[Cally]

"You say I live in a bubble? I find a bubble's best."

Variable size?

[topher1kenobe]

Could it not simply mean that it changes in size? I'd be surprised if it *didn't* change in size, based on all the variable energy in the solar system. The sun changes, the planets change place, etc.

Re:Variable size?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but if you think about how much it would have to change in size between the two Voyager probes encoutering them.. The difference is multiple trips from here to the Sun, in not that long a time period.

What I'm trying to say here: If it's moving, it's doing so with some gusto, at least in planetary terms.

Re:Variable size?

[Nos.]

I wouldn't think the positioning of the planets would have much to do with it. Thing of a spec of dust in front of a spotlight... pretty tough to notice the effects a significant distance away. However, given sun spots, solar flares, etc. I wouldn't think that the distance would be constant. Though a variation of around 11% is pretty significant. Of course, two data points at different times in different areas is hardly enough to make any kind of conclusions.

Re:Variable size?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, because both Voyager 1 and 2 are passing through this region at roughly the same time. If it changed as rapidly as you imply, both craft would be found to be moving inside and outside the field in the time it took them to get through it.

Re:Variable size?

[MindStalker]

I believe from the Voyager I expedition that Voyager I detected and eventually cross the heliosphere where it was detected a year later. So the idea that the size stayed steady during the time then quickly switched sizes as Voyager II approached is unlikly... Unless the excape of Voyager I has upset the Gods... Then we are all doomed!

Re:Variable size?

[Tx]

I also wondered if it could be changing. But if it is, I very much doubt anything inside the solar system has any measurable effect on it other than the sun.

Re:Variable size?

[sidfaiwu]

Could it not be both changing sizes and be irregularly shaped and off center?

Re:Variable size?

[Nos.]

Hmmm, irregular and off-center. If the sun is moving at a given speed, the overall shape of the heliosphere would appear warped and off center... probably egg shaped. That might explain the difference.

Re:Variable size?

[JebusIsLord]

You mean it shrinks??

      -Elaine

Re:Variable size?

[ClickOnThis]

Could it not simply mean that it changes in size? I'd be surprised if it *didn't* change in size, based on all the variable energy in the solar system. The sun changes, the planets change place, etc.

Excellent point. Whether something changes spatially or temporally is a difficult thing to determine when you're measuring things from just a few spacecraft. My guess is the feature is spatial, because the two Voyagers encountered it within such a relatively short time period. However, if it is temporal (i.e., the heliosphere expands and contracts) then perhaps we may see it expand so that Voyager 2 is inside it once again, and re-exits the heliosphere some time in the future. So, perhaps it looks spatial for now, but stay tuned?

Re:Variable size?

[MightyMartian]

This may be an incredibly stupid question, but is there any reason that we should assume that interstellar charged particles wouldn't be more powerful in one direction than another?

Re:Variable size?

[Bohiti]

Humans are not only destroying their planet, we're destroying our solar system!!1!11 If we act now we can stop heliosphere shrinking before it's too late!!!!!1

Re:Variable size?

[Atzanteol]

Like a frightened turtle! - Jerry

Re:Variable size?

[Bob3141592]

Could it not simply mean that it changes in size? I'd be surprised if it *didn't* change in size, based on all the variable energy in the solar system. The sun changes, the planets change place, etc.

What variability? The sun is pretty constant on short time scales. The sun is being observed in detail by other spacecraft specifically designed for that task, like Helios. These spacecraft directly measure the solar wind and track the effects of solar. I'm sure the people at NASA have included that data into their analysis. They are rocket scientists, after all. The planets exert essentially zero influence over the heliosphere. So it's not like they have no idea about what's going without the Voyager data.

Re:Variable size?

[VWJedi]

"...based on all the variable energy in the solar system."

What about the energy outside the solar system? Although the distance is much greater between the sun and neighboring stars, those stars do have a gravitational effect on the movement of the sun, the planets, and all other objects in the solar system. They probably have an electro-magnetic effect as well.

Re:Variable size?

[Surt]

If solar energy output varied by more than 10% in a couple of years, we'd likely have weather and temperature issues here on earth as a result.

And the width of planets are insignificant compared to the radius of orbit, so unless the spacecraft happened to hit a one in a million chance of wandering through right on the orbital plane of one of the planets, just in sync with the orbit of that planet, this isn't a very likely explanation either.

Re:Variable size?

[barawn]

Could it not simply mean that it changes in size? I'd be surprised if it *didn't* change in size, based on all the variable energy in the solar system. The sun changes, the planets change place, etc.

That's actually very likely taken into account. When Voyager 1 found the heliopause, they were pretty sure that the termination shock was moving inward fairly rapidly due to it being past solar max, and so Voyager 2 would catch it pretty soon. This sounds like it happened quicker than their predictions expected. See here for more details. Note that they thought at the time that Voyager 2 might encounter the shock in 2005, but it might actually not catch it at all (as it might start moving outward again).

I saw the guy mentioned in the article (Ed Stone) give a talk on Voyager 1's results, so I'm pretty sure he'd know, especially since he, y'know, mentioned it.

Re:Variable size?

[Jason Hood]

Let me guess, Its shrinking due to Global Warming.

Re:Variable size?

[Fred_A]

Of course, two data points at different times in different areas is hardly enough to make any kind of conclusions.

We'll have a better picture when the Voyager 1308 readings get to us. Stay tuned !

Re:Variable size?

[el-spectre]

I dunno, tho I'd assume you need a hellacious volume of particules to exert this kind of pressure, and the source would consequently need to be really big, or really close... enough so that we should have seen it already.

Of course, I'm pulling that straight out my ass.

Re:Variable size?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't solar wind caused by solar flares? Wouldn't that be why it's irregular?

Re:Variable size?

[Typhon100]

The solar system is moving? Relative to what? Paging Dr. Einstein...

Re:Variable size?

[Anonymous Coward]

believe it was george actually, since he was the one in the agitated state

Re:Variable size?

[2names]

It's VGER and it will join with the creator.

Re:Variable size?

[modmans2ndcoming]

umm... the center of the galaxy. Galactic rotation causes stars to orbit the galactic center... then of course you have our galaxy moving through space relative to other galaxies, though, at such a scale, relativity would say that we are stationary as a galaxy and the rest are moving away from us, since this is our frame of reference.

Re:Variable size?

[skarphace]

...the source would consequently need to be really big, or really close... enough so that we should have seen it already.

The source?

If it's daytime: go outside and look up.

If it's night time: wait until daytime and see above.

Re:Variable size?

[kentyman]

No, it was Jerry.

Re:Variable size?

[iamlucky13]

Ahem...I seriously thought I'd never have to explain this one on slashdot. It turns out that beyond our solar system, there is a vast amount of space and bodies that provide references against which to measure the motion of the solar system. We call that the "universe."

For further background on this concept, you may be interested to read about galaxies or Copernicus.

Re:Variable size?

[Twanfox]

The only reason comets have tails is because there is an outward pressure that forces ejected particles away from their source. Likely, the biggest way that such a 'tail' would form in the heliopause is if there was an external force pushing on it.

Think: Earth's magnetic field.

The magnetic field of the earth is shaped very much like a comet, but it is always pointed away from the sun and ripples as solar output changes. There is a website that seeks to model the fluxuations of the magnetic field, but I forget where it's at. If you can locate a source of what might be pushing on the the solar system's magnetic field, then it may be similarly shaped.

Re:Variable size?

[el-spectre]

No, we're talking about an extrasolar(system) source, something that would emit particles that exert pressure against Sol's solar wind.

Re:Variable size?

[purfledspruce]

That's very likely. The Earth's magnetic field is shaped like a comet's tail--the Solar Wind pushes it over to one side, squishing the front and making a tail out of the back...I wouldn't be at all suprised if the same were true of the Sun's field, with a tail out away from the center of the galaxy...

There's a great article with pictures of the Earth's magnetic field at: this UK physics site...scroll down to see the "bow shock," but there's no picture of the tail, they cut the picture off early. A great animation of the Sun's impact on the rotating magnetic field of the Earth can be seen at this NASA site.

Re:Variable size?

[Keebler71]

Careful there young Surt... it's a very small step from your statement to claiming that the Sun might have something to do with global warming. I recommend you step back slowly.

Re:Variable size?

[kimvette]

Don't you mean Voyager 6. aka V'Ger?

(I'm not a trekkie. Honest! I swear! I've never worn pointy ears nor a nurse chapel or uhura uniform. Furthermore, as additional evidence I am not a trekkie, I have only seen about half the episodes of TOS, about 1/3 of TNG, 1/2 of Voyager, two of the Enterprise atrocity, about 10 episodes of DS9. I just happen to think it's fun to watch funny-although-not-intentionally-funny SciFi.)

Re:Variable size?

[kimvette]

I don't know whether your post should be modded up informative, insightful, or "pretty f'ing funny smartass here" but it should definitely be modded up.

Re:Variable size?

[jafac]

This is a very interesting idea, because if the theory that the solar magnetic field changes by interacting with planetary magnetic fields is true, then perturbations in a star's heliopause would be an indicator of extrasolar planets. The question is - are these perturbations measurable? (probably not).

Re:Variable size?

[Neurotoxic666]

They are rocket scientists, after all.

"Iches == centimeters"

"Hey, let's close that door from inside!"

"Yeah, it'll hold on re-entry"

Re:Variable size?

[camperdave]

A bow shock doesn't have a tail. It is like the wake of a boat travelling along the water.

Re:Variable size?

[kurzweilfreak]

Marry me? :P

Re:Variable size?

[mfrank]

The two Voyagers are exiting the solar system at significantly different places. No shrinking necessary, just uneven edge.

Re:Variable size?

[Jokerz17]

I've never worn pointy ears nor a nurse chapel or uhura uniform.

I have to say, as I was reading your post, I was really really hoping you were a female.

Re:Variable size?

[inKubus]

Yeah, it's probably directly in proportion to the solar wind velocity in all directions. Which varies. We're currently at solar minimum right now in the 11 year cycle which means the field does not go out as far. See also Space Weather.

Re:Variable size?

[Anonymous Coward]

course, two data points at different times in different areas is hardly enough to make any kind of conclusions.

That has never stopped people from believing evolution is real.

Re:Variable size?

[glitch23]

Like a frightened turtle

Re:Variable size?

[purfledspruce]

uh...actually, with a magnetic field, you get pressure on the "wake" and you end up compressing it into an ever thinning stream...rather like a tail. Technically, it never closes, but I figure by the heliopause it's close enough.

Re:Variable size?

[kurzweilfreak]

Right, because the whole of evolutionary evidence consists of just a few data points and tenuous correlations. Total.

Re:Variable size?

[ErroneousBee]

Michelson-Morley did a load of experiments around this issue, back when they thought there was an 'ether' pervading the universe and that light moved through the ether at a contant speed, and that the motion of the earth though space would mean different speeds of light in different directions.

We could do the same thing for sub-atomic particles, but theres no evidence of a directional bias from any experiments Ive heard of.

Re:Variable size?

[sickofthisshit]

Michelson-Morely is irrelevant.

The solar system is moving through the "interstellar medium"; the galaxy has plenty of dust, charged particles, and magnetic fields going on, and the heliopause is almost certainly affected by it. The solar system *can* have a velocity with respect to this interstellar medium, and therefore have an asymmetry.

The fact that there is no "luminiferous ether" does not mean that there aren't other material influences that do depend on planetary and stellar motion. Think of meteor showers, for instance. Those depend on the direction in which Earth is moving through clouds of comet debris. We can look up in the sky at various times of year and see that; it definitely depends on the direction of earth's motion.

Re:Variable size?

[pavon]

This is really late, but here is an article at NASA, that explains the expected heliosphere much better than the CNN one. They do expect it to tail off - however, the points measured by the two voyagers don't match the model that they have.

Re:Variable size?

[feronti]

"Iches == centimeters"

That was Lockheed's fault. Yes, NASA should've caught the mistake in a design review, and that was poor project management on their part, but the fact is Lockheed didn't follow the software interface specification.

"Hey, let's close that door from inside!"

Actually makes sense, considering the inside of the spacecraft will usually be pressurized compared to the outside. The real problem was the fact that they were pressurizing with 100% O2, and that no one investigated why they were having communication problems.

"Yeah, it'll hold on re-entry"

That was management, not the engineers and rocket scientists. The engineers and rocket scientists didn't know enough either way, since they couldn't get management to authorize on orbit imagery to take a look at the damage.

In summary, almost all of NASA's failures have been due to management, not the scientists and engineers.

Er. Wait.

[Roody Blashes]

That's two data points, and "bulging" implies a highly irregular shape, or at least an even shape that couldn't be accurately modeled by two data points.

Wouldn't it be equally as logical to say that it's just expanding/contracting? How can they know with only two points?

Re:Er. Wait.

[rubycodez]

not two points, data is being taken along two different curves over years; and if there is expansion we might just detect it

Re:Er. Wait.

[rockhome]

The 2 data points aren't informing the size or shape, but are observations related to a theory.

The theoretical belief is that it should be relatively uniform, but it does not appear to be. Are 2 observations sufficient? No, but a difference in 9 AU in the 2 observations is significant in that it is far off the scall were it less than 1, or maybe only slightly different, that would better confirm the theory. If the physics say that it ought to be uniform, and observations shows that it isn't, th theory needs to be adjusted.

Re:Er. Wait.

[Roody Blashes]

Perhaps I'm wrong since the CNN article has, as usual, no useful information, but my understanding is that the spacecraft traveled through the edge, not along it, which would amount to only two useful datapoints (one from V I and one from V II) for each unit of depth into the "edge" the spacecraft moved.

Re:Er. Wait.

[Anonymous Coward]

How would more data points help solve that problem? Logically what you need is two measurements taken at the same time at different places to test the sphericity hypothesis, and two measurements taken at different times at the same place to test for changes over time. See, "only two points" are enough, if they're good ones.

Re:Er. Wait.

[Lord Crc]

But it's not like it's a solid wall or similar. The magnetic field is everywhere, and at some points it has certain properties which makes us say the point is part of "the edge". The Voyager probes have been measuring the magnetic field as they've been travelling, so we have datapoints along their entire path, not just from "the edge".

Re:Er. Wait.

[ClickOnThis]

That's two data points, and "bulging" implies a highly irregular shape, or at least an even shape that couldn't be accurately modeled by two data points.

Wouldn't it be equally as logical to say that it's just expanding/contracting? How can they know with only two points?

Actually there is more information available than just two data points. There is the a priori knowledge of how magnetic fields and plasmas behave, the cumulative measurements of the two Voyager probes up to now along their trajectories, the measurements of other spacecraft over many decades of space research, and other observations of particles in interstellar space. All of this contributes to the model one infers for the shape of the field. Also, see my earlier post.

Re:Er. Wait.

[argStyopa]

Yup.
Someone once explained the heliopause neatly by pointing to the splash-disk of water in a sink, with the tap turned on full. The water coming from the tap pushes out, while the water already in the sink is trying to return to the middle to go down the drain.

Hence, you get a 'circle' where the energy of the tap water (coming out from the center) = the energy of the material trying to fall back into the center. The circle isn't perfect; it moves as the tap outpouring is not uniform and varies quite a bit.

It's actually a pretty good analogy, since the topagraphy of the sink (as a parallel to the gravity environment) also affects that 'circle' significantly.

Much like that, I suspect that the heliopause is hardly static; it probably bulges and deflates dynamically with solar activity (once that reaches the periphery, of course).

Re:Er. Wait.

[mdielmann]

Wow, a completely untested theory proposed when we had no data points to even base it on is invalidated by two units of data. I'm sure Rutherford would be surprised.

Seriously, when you make a theory with no actual data, it sounds a lot like an educated guess. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but you'd be a fool to be surprised it was wrong or incomplete. It's a starting point, not a destination.

Re:Er. Wait.

[Anonymous Coward]

Or wait, it also could mean we're moving and simply observing
the rippling effects of the solar wind.

Re:Er. Wait.

[iamlucky13]

We did have data to base the theory on. The data is the known emmissions from the sun, compared to the expected emissions from other suns and such. Based on that, they were probably pretty confident of their models of what the termination shock should look like (the very fact that they can identify it suggests the model can't be too far off). You're right, though, that it's only a starting point. This observation sounds like very good justification for continuing to fund the Voyager program. NASA had been considering dropping it because it is costing several million a year in operations costs.

I for one wonder if perhaps the shape is assymetrically biased away from the galactic center.

Re:Er. Wait.

[mdielmann]

Given the relatively rapid shifting of the suns magnetic field, and the shapes of various charged particle streams from various stars, I can't say I'm entirely surprised with what they've found. There's also the question of whether the variation is from difference in time between the samples, as well as location. That can be answered in part by observations of other stars, but I wonder how easy it is to detect minor variations (about 10% radius) in a magnetic field from light-years away.

And those are all questions that support funding the Voyager series as long as it gives new data. I'd say it's value is just as important as the planetary explorations that they're focusing on. I personally wouldn't mind if they flung out a few dozen (maybe a couple hundred) to give us samples from around the heliosphere with samples a couple years apart. It could give some interesting data, even if its value wasn't equal to the cost.

Re:Er. Wait.

[The Great Pretender]

So what I read is that the magnetic edge of the solar system is an average of 80.5 AU +/- 7.9%. I ask, is 7.9% a reasonable relative standard deviation (RSD) for a measurement in astrological terms? It seems pretty good precision to me given the distance.

Re:Er. Wait.

[kimvette]

If you consider fluid dynamics that actually makes a lot of sense, especially since every other heliosphere around every other star (I'm assuming every stellar object has one) would have a reactive effect with other nearby objects, so the rippling would make sense, as would the "leading edge" of our helisphere being squished relative to the "trailing edge" based on our relative motion in the galaxy (ignoring other possible effects such as solar wind from other stars, gravitational pull from possible nearby-but-as-of-yet undetected massive objects, etc.).

Re:Er. Wait.

[Nerd_52637]

If the physics say that it ought to be uniform, and observations shows that it isn't

then maybe it's still uniform, but uniformly shrinking? If it is shrinking at a constant rate, we'll be in for quite a Termination Shock when we wake up on September 24, 2014!

Re:Er. Wait.

[adrianmonk]

That's two data points, and "bulging" implies a highly irregular shape, or at least an even shape that couldn't be accurately modeled by two data points.

Wouldn't it be equally as logical to say that it's just expanding/contracting? How can they know with only two points?

I would like to point out that with two data points, there is sufficient information to conclude that the heliopause has an irregular shape. However, having only two data points means we don't have sufficient information to determine which dimension the irregularity is in: space or time.

Correct me if i'm wrong...

[Tibor the Hun]

...but all that mumbo-jumbo about weak this and that seems really complicated.

Couldn't the inward bulge on the south be because the turtle shell is pushing in on it?

Re:Correct me if i'm wrong...

[Shimmer]

LOL

Yes, as any serious thinker knows: "it's turtles all the way down".

Re:Correct me if i'm wrong...

[BungeBash]

Quick Scottie! Full power to the rear sheilds!

Re:Correct me if i'm wrong...

[not-admin]

No silly, it's the elephants making that bulge, not the turtle.
The elephants stand on the turtle's back.

Variable Heliosphere

[Anonymous Coward]

This implies that the heliosphere, a spherical bubble of charged low-energy particles created by our Sun's solar wind, is irregularly shaped

Er, couldn't it also imply that the heliosphere is changing size?

Re:Variable Heliosphere

[pilgrim23]

Something else to blame on Global warming?

garbage!

[Quasar1999]

I'm sorry, I'm not a scientist and perhaps that's why I can't graps how the hell they came to this genius conclusion.

Let's sample a sphere at two pinpoint locations, and make all sorts of conclusions on the shape of an entire hemisphere of it...??? It rained today, and it was sunny yesterday, so that means that there's a 50% chance of it raining? Insufficient data...

Re:garbage!

[jr87]

actually not two points, two curves, as they both record getting towards the edge and then finally getting free.. so quite a few data points actually.

Re:garbage!

[rubycodez]

no, we've been taking data over many years along two different parabolic trajectories, that's a HUGE difference from sampling at two little data points. And we'll keep taking data along these curves; expansion or contraction and other variations could possibly be detected

Re:garbage!

[farquharsoncraig]

You also have to remember that this conclusion is reached by assuming a whole lot of properties about the near galactic neighborhood, or rather the data is being explained by relying on these suppositions. It may not be what is actually going on, but if it does fit the data and explain all the phenomena and there's nothing better to say about it, then that becomes the working hypothesis. Scientists don't suppose themselves to be always irrefutably correct. Thus is science.

Re:garbage!

[Guysmiley777]

Scientists don't suppose themselves to be always irrefutably correct. Thus is science.

You lie! Everyone knows the heliopause exists only because the Designer placed it there! To suggest otherwise blasphemes the Designer!!! (/sarcasm)

Re:garbage!

[misanthrope101]

I'm sorry, I'm not a scientist and perhaps that's why I can't graps how the hell they came to this genius conclusion.

Yes, your assessment of your own abilities is more accurate than your assessment of the science involved in what they are doing. What I don't see is how you started out so well, acknowledging the fact that you didn't know what you were talking about, and then stumbled on anyway to decide that they were making it all up and it was actually, as you called it, "garbage." It's as if you don't think that your own admitted, acknowledged ignorance diminishes the validity of your analysis. Are you really that arrogant? And if you are, might you not want to re-think something in your intellectual approach to science, and in fact to rational thought? Just an idea.

No, I'm not calling you stupid. I don't understand quantum mechanics, among other subjects. However, I realize that my ignorance means that I am extremely unqualified to dismiss any article on quantum mechanics as "garbage." That doesn't mean that I have to believe everything, or that I am suffering from the "argument from authority" fallacy, only that I recognize that science has been a very productive, very successful mental process, and the bare fact that I don't understand something scientists are saying doesn't mean that they're making it all up. Just saying "Zeuss did it" is just making it up, but flying a freaking spaceship out to the edge of the solar system to gather data to analyze proves that the thought process is based on something rational and dependable, even if I don't understand all the aspects of the science.

I know my response is disproportionate to your original post. The reason I wrote it is that too many people, knowing full well that they don't know what they're talking about, still feel eminently qualified to have a passionate opinion on scientific subjects. Usually their assessment is that the science is "garbage," that scientists are "just making it all up," and that it's just a "secular religion" used to explain away God, or some such crap. Meanwhile I'm sitting in an air-conditioned room, wearing glasses, looking at my car keys, and otherwise surrounded by things that were all created by science, none of which were created by prayer or chanting. Hearing people denigrate the scientific method, even while being surrounded by the fruits of that method, is starting to chafe my hide.

Re:garbage!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry,

That goes without saying

I'm not a scientist and perhaps that's why I can't graps

Obviously, you're not too knowledgeable of the English language, either, else you'd know it's spelled "grasp."

how the hell they came to this genius conclusion.

Gee, I don't know, Sparky. Possibly because they're a metric shit-ton smarter that you?

Re:garbage!

[caudron]

Insufficient data...

Yes, you---a slashdot armchair physicist---have disassembled and shamed the work of a team of NASA scientists with three poorly punctuated semi-sentences.

Let that be a lesson to the rest of you would-be geniuses out there using your "science" and "math" to "prove facts". Quasar1999 stands at the ready to quip your supposedly careful research into shamed oblivion. ;-)

Tom Caudron
http://tom.digitalelite.com/

Re:garbage!

[geekoid]

" is starting to chafe my hide."

As it should.

Excellent post.

Re:garbage!

[MrMonty]

Damn... I'm trying to figure out if your user name is well-suited in regards to your remarks about "many people", or ironic in regards to your remarks about scientists.

Regardless, good points.

Monty

Re:garbage!

[spaceyhackerlady]

I'm sorry, I'm not a scientist and perhaps that's why I can't graps how the hell they came to this genius conclusion.

Let's sample a sphere at two pinpoint locations, and make all sorts of conclusions on the shape of an entire hemisphere of it...??? It rained today, and it was sunny yesterday, so that means that there's a 50% chance of it raining? Insufficient data...

You expect the termination shock to be symmetric, with the Sun at the centre. There will be interstellar influences, but the Voyagers are still only a tiny fraction of a percent on their way even to Alpha Centauri.

Yes, there aren't many data points, but when the first two show the termination shock is not symmetric, so close to the solar system, there is clearly something else going on.

This Is Interesting (tm).

...laura, who was in high school when Voyager 2 was launched. Sigh.

Or perhaps...

[Billosaur]

...it's due to the Sun's motion through the galaxy, perhaps extrasolar winds which remain undetected, or the bubble is variable like the solar wind itself, or maybe even gravitational tides due to the orbiting planets are influencing its shape. While I'm impressed that both Voyagers (and Pioneers for that matter) are still out there sending back this kind of data, there's so little to go on that a lot of rank speculation is required. Perhaps a series of probes need to be sent out to the region of the Kuiper Belt to study the phenomenon more closely.

Re:Or perhaps...

[Farmer Tim]

...it's due to the Sun's motion through the galaxy

Unless the compression of the heliopause is on the leading edge relative to the sun's motion through the galaxy, this can be safely ruled out. This would also imply some hitherto undetected galactic medium causing a braking effect; surely any non-magnetic influence would affect solid matter as well, and cause the galaxy's rotation to slow over time (unless the medium rotates with the galaxy, in which case the motion of the medium relative to the sun is zero and braking should apply equally to all sides...the effect of motion again cancels out, so we're back to where we started).

perhaps extrasolar winds which remain undetected

Maybe, but without identifying a source of those winds its impossible to explain the uneven shape: what lies in that direction that could produce such a powerful effect? That's not to exlude the possibility, but it seems less likely than the weak magnetic field's influence, given what we do know about charged particles.

or the bubble is variable like the solar wind itself

That's probably true for small differences over time, but we're talking about an 11% variation. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that any variation in solar activity that could cause that kind of change in the space of a few years would be detectable from observation. They probably considered this, checked, and found no link.

or maybe even gravitational tides due to the orbiting planets are influencing its shape.

On the plane of the elliptic where the planets magnetic fields and gravity have most influence that might make sense, but these are the polar regions; why would gravitational tides affect one pole one way, and the other pole the other way when the mass is distributed more or less evenly between them (gravity always pulls in, remember)? Besides, the particles involved already have the velocity to escape the sun's gravity, so even Jupiter's gravitational influence would have negligable effect. Its also known that charged particles are deflected by the Van Allen belt, while larger objects plow straight through because of gravity; magnetic fields are far more significant than gravity in this case.

there's so little to go on that a lot of rank speculation is required.

I'm not claiming we know everything (far from it), but we can use what we do know to eliminate what doesn't make sense. Put it this way: if I can point out the flaws with what you suggest with my meagre knowledge of astrophysics, the people who do it for a living are probably way ahead of both of us.

Perhaps a series of probes need to be sent out to the region of the Kuiper Belt to study the phenomenon more closely.

I agree with you 100% there. There is definitely someting interesting going on, but I suspect the explanation is more obvious than extraordinary.

Other possibilities

[Glacial Wanderer]

Or it means that the heliopause is collapsing at an alarming rate. In other words, the sky is falling! End of the solar system! Run for your lives!

Re:Other possibilities

[Chicken04GTO]

Damn Neo-Cons ignoring the environment, damn them to hell!

Re:Other possibilities

[Tibor the Hun]

'lax man. I'm pretty sure we can just reverse the polarity of the deflector beam, point it south by south and drive in reverse at warp 2.

Re:Other possibilities

[truckaxle]

Undoubtable creationist will claim this as yet another piece of convincing evidence of a young universe and the scientist just don't want to admit it.

Re:Other possibilities

[SABME]

Actually, I think that would override the Varion phase subsystem and result in a dangerous multiphasic plasma leak. Remember when we tried that on the Trilobites of Gleberaux V? Lieutenant McShane spent weeks resurfacing the intermediary manifolds after that misadventure, and complained about it in the Forward Lounge every night for months!

I think if we draw off about 10% of our reserve holodeck power and re-route it to the rear sensor array, the resulting harmonics would induce a tachyon burst in all directions. We could measure the burst echo and we'd have have a much better idea what all of this is about.

(even if you mod me down, please mod the parent up; I just love a good Trek technobabble).

Re:Other possibilities

[malsdavis]

But God must have created the heliosphere. Otherwise we might have to use lots of difficult mathematics to explain its asymmetry and how annoying would that be?

Also, Occams razor PROVES it, because its much easier to imagine some guy coming along and just plonking the heliosphere there rather than an uncountable number of magnetic particles/waves interacting with one another over billions of years.

Re:Other possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

Undoubtable liberals will claim this as yet another piece of convincing evidence of solar warming due to the Bush administration's non-competitive granting of projects to the Halliburton corp.

Re:Other possibilities

[Jerf]

Your Blogger profile says you're in engineering. Have you considered a career in journalism?

Re:Other possibilities

[bdcrazy]

Compare the composition of a phaser with the green laser pointer talked about in the following article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DPSS_laser
Take note of all the crystals and processes involved, some look quite complicated.
Truth is stranger than fiction.

Re:Other possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

"End of the solar system! Run for your lives!"

Right!

Uh, I say old chap, where do you suggest running to?

Re:Other possibilities

[theJML]

All we need to do is wait for it to collapse a little further and then Chuck Norris can it it with a roundhouse kick and everything will be back to normal.

Re:Other possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

...where do you suggest running to?"

When in danger
When in doubt
Run in circles
Scream and shout

I say we run to Uranus and hang a left. It's as good a direction as any so... anybody with me?

***Ba-dum***

--

Just curious

[Anonymous Coward]

Could either the unexplained external magnetic field or the irregularities in the internal magnetic field explain why all of those old far-flung NASA probes are gradually moving just slightly away from the course NASA would expect them to be on, for no apparent reason? I don't know if magnetic fields wind up exerting any force on the motion of NASA probes or not...

two points of contact describes the shape?

[192939495969798999]

I think we need a few more probes than 2 in order to determine what the shape is. We poke 2 holes in outer space, and because one hits sooner, we are already swapping out one static shape for another... what if it just changes shape all over the place (albeit slightly)? Granted, it's not high on the priority list, but the caveat that we'd need a bunch more probes to determine a rough shape from first contact radio information.

Re:two points of contact describes the shape?

[Guysmiley777]

Here's the thing, we have been monitoring Voyager 1 and 2 since they left Earth. So really there are a LOT more than 2 points of data, it's actually 2 continuous arcs through space. Sure, 200 more probes would provide a much nicer data set, but funding that (then having to wait 30 years) just isn't sexy.

I hope someone programmed that thing with....

[Anonymous Coward]

the question: What does God need with a starship?

Re:I hope someone programmed that thing with....

[Anonymous Coward]

Better yet, will it look like a giant flying tootsie roll and talk to humpback whales?

Re:I hope someone programmed that thing with....

[Nocturnal Deviant]

what i worry about more is if the starship is running windows or linux =0

Obligatory Global Warming Link?

[fernandoh26]

How much you guys wanna bet some people will either:

A) Say that this is causing global warming
B) Say that this is being caused by global warming

Re:Obligatory Global Warming Link?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh... well, it is true!

Since the magnetic field collapsed, more energy from the sun is in the heat ray form heating the Earth.

Re:Obligatory Global Warming Link?

[Anonymous Coward]

C) Say that this is an NSA plot to collect information about you with the help of AT&T

Re:Obligatory Global Warming Link?

[FSWKU]

C) "This is Bush's fault!"

<sarcasm>

Since everything bad in the world is, as you know, directly the fault of George Bush...

</sarcasm>

Re:Obligatory Global Warming Link?

[donut_ky]

How much you guys wanna bet some people will either: A) Say that this is refutes global warming B) Say that this is being caused "designer"

Re:Obligatory Global Warming Link?

[Anonymous Coward]

No more so, than hearing somebody say that we have turned the corner and democracy is on the march for 5 LOOOOONNNNNNNGGGGGG years.

Re:Obligatory Global Warming Link?

[rxrx]

Its all George Bush's fault! heh

Re:Obligatory Global Warming Link?

[lgw]

Nah, can't be Bush's fault - he's only responsible for everyhting bad in the *world*. This bears the stamp of His Satanic Majesty, Dark Lord Karl Rove, whose influence knows no such limits. ;)

Re:Obligatory Global Warming Link?

[Anonymous Coward]

sure, but that estimate was based on the assumption that the edge of the solar system was constant ... ofcourse all bets are off now. :)

Oh, No!

[AoT]

The solar system is collapsing!

It must have started after Voyager I got there, which means it's going *really* fast.

Run everyone, Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuun!

Re:Oh, No!

[EvanED]

Pretty soon we'll be down to:
"Computer, what is the nature of the universe?"
"The universe is a spheroid region, 705 meters in diameter."

Re:Oh, No!

[Gattman01]

V'ger is unhappy with you.

Beware its cloud of wraith.

Re:Oh, No!

[crazyjimmy]

Ya know, hollywood doesn't need your help coming up with campy end-o-the-earth scenarioes. didn't you see The Core?

--Jimmy
Look, I wrote my own sig.

Re:Oh, No!

[Ponga]

I SALUTE YOU Sir for your clearly superior ST:TNG knowledge!
(Btw, one of the BEST TNG eps ever!)

Re:Oh, No!

[EvanED]

"If there's nothing wrong with me, maybe there's something wrong with the universe!"

To be fair, someone posted the exact same quote as a top-level comment a couple screens down. Though I did post this before I saw that...

Re:Oh, No!

[Bios_Hakr]

They stole that from an old Doctor Who episode. The Tardis was trapped in subspace with a ship constructed out of white dwarf metal. No matter how many times the Doctor warped, he ended up in the same place. And the whole thing was getting smaller every minute.

Re:Oh, No!

[schlumpf_louise]

That's ok, we're safe, we can get Wesley to help us.

Re:Oh, No!

[schlumpf_louise]

eh? I was making comment bout Wesley, Star Trek, cus he can help, if it went like it did in the TNG ep, how did I offend someone!? *confused*

Re:Oh, No!

[Ponga]

Huh. Interesting. Which doctor?

Can Voyager 1 take a picture of it?

[Anonymous Coward]

A "spherical bubble of charged low-energy particles". When you're outside the bubble, directions that are tangent to the bubble would have a lot of this stuff overlapping.

here's a question you shouldn't be able to answer

[Anonymous Coward]

"computer, what is the nature of the universe?"

The universe is a spheroid region - 705 meters in diameter...

Re:oh great

[AoT]

I am no Astrophysicist but I assume they are using either the sun's magnetic field or the orbital plane of the solar system as a reference point. Most likely the former, because then you have negative and positive poles so you can reference what is up and what is down.

Good Engineering

[Screwy1138]

It's a credit to the teams that these things are still running. I feel like there is an old and new NASA. Imagine a project today to explore the edges of the Solar System (I know Voyagers did more than that but we have to keep it simple today). "Okay boys, now, we don't care what direction you go in, but could you please just not hit anything?" All in all, I really feel for NASA.

Re:Good Engineering

[Scarblac]

In the meantime, both Spirit and Opportunity are still active, two years and four months after landing on Mars.

Re:Good Engineering

[shotfeel]

As a counterpoint, I'll simply mention the Mars Rovers.

Good design always has a bit of "luck" involved. There are always assumptions and simplifications nobody thinks are significant, until they are.

Re:Good Engineering

[Screwy1138]

The two successful landers are actually great feats of engineering, no denying that, and they are certainly recent projects. I wasn't going for some overall statement... my intent was just to say that the Voyagers are impressive based on when they were built, and what they've accomplished.

The concept of a 'New' NASA isn't a critique of the current engineers, though I undoubtedly implied that. The 'New' NASA is one that is dealing with an unheard of amount of policies, political pressures, and a significantly reduced budget. That anything succeeds today is a credit to the engineers there. No, just wanted to give a thumbs up to a spacecraft that shares my age.

Re:Good Engineering

[Peldor]

All in all, I really feel for NASA.

And (until someone else hopefully takes up the spacefaring mantle) all of the human race.

Re:Good Engineering

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yeah?

Well, just wait til Voyager 132 is using Vista SP3 patch!!!!!!

P.S. I have no clue who gave me this good (kind) smoke, but I am laughing and laughing and laughing at what I just wrote.

Re:Good Engineering

[Anonymous Coward]

The old NASA made mistakes too. They killed three people by setting them on fire.

Re:Good Engineering

[purfledspruce]

And both Rovers and both Voyagers were built by JPL, which the current NASA Administrator is cutting over and over and over...JPL is the ONLY NASA CENTER who has had to lay people off....

Re:Good Engineering

[HotmanParisHiltonKam]

Yes, the rovers are a win; however, completely losing orbiters because you can't work out whether you are using Imperial or Metric units is inexcusable (BTW America, the answer should be Metric - welcome to the 21st century).

Obligatory

[mentaldingo]

In south heliosphere, magnetic edge detects YOU!

Re:oh great

[Eideewt]

There's a magnetic field you've been missing.

We're screwed

[coop535]

I saw this once on star trek, where Westley helps trap his mom (and the enterprise) in a shrinking bubble. If our star really is in the center of our solar system, we're so screwed.

Re:Wait for it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but it will be followed up with a tax cut to halliburton and oil companies to support keeping this bubble.

Magnetic Bubble

[BigJake4589]

So, they finally discovered we're living in a matrix.

Symmetrical?

[mhore]

I read this a day or two ago, and wondered to myself, "Whoever said that it had to be symmetrical?"

If you look at many structures in the universe, there are quite a few that are not spherically symmetrical. So either, we're in an asymmetrical blob, or there's just a more complex symmetry present. This should come as no surprise to the astronomy community, IMHO.

It is interesting, I think. It may give insight into our local neighbourhood.

Mike.

Re:Symmetrical?

[barakn]

You'd be pretty damn surprised if you blew up a balloon and it formed the shape of a cube, wouldn't you? Some shapes are more probable than others.

Re:Symmetrical?

[pixel_bc]

I thought, "who said it was static?"

That being said, both of those ideas mean we need some more probes. ;)

after all..

[fury88]

after all.. our Earth is in fact an Oblique Spheroid.

Re:after all..

[ClickOnThis]

after all.. our Earth is in fact an Oblique Spheroid.

Socio-politically perhaps. But geometrically, it's an oblate spheroid. ;-)

Re:after all..

[fury88]

Yes, I think we are both correct actually lol

Earth's shape changes due to climate

heliosphere shrinkage - we're the cause

[Doug Dante]

This plain evidence of heliosphere shrinkage is clearly linked to our overindulgence of fossil fuels, and the tremendous buildup of heliospheric damaging gasses emitted from our atmosphere and into our precious heliosphere.

We must work together to recognize this inconvenient truth and change our everyday lives lest the heliosphere collapse entirely and we die of interstellar radiation.

Re:heliosphere shrinkage - we're the cause

[Winterblink]

It's also quite cold out there. Common cause of shrinkage.

Re:oh great

[Trails]

North and south also refer to magnetic poles. North is generally assumed to be the positive pole, and south the negative, though when poles flip, as happens on earth (every one million years I think), and the sun (every 11 years or so, sometimes refered to as a period of solar maxima), common usage north and south probably won't switch. Wikipedia has a bit more info.

There's also galactic north and south, which are imaginary axes perpendicular to the the plane of the galaxy. Again, wikipedia has more info.

I'd hazard that what this article refers to as north is probably some assumed "solar north" roughly parallel to Earth's north.

Thats something i wondered about.

[todd10k]

Proponents of the alien seed theory believe that voyager leaving the solar system will trigger preorganised events that were only supposed to be triggered after we developed interstellar travel. After reading this, i had to comment here. What a crock of shit.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Wait for it...

[Anonymous Coward]

ManBearPig is REAL! I am SOOO serial!

What if it pops?

[WillAffleckUW]

I don't know about you, but I'm moving to that nearby planetary Sol system with three Jovian planets - it's only 41 lightyears away ... you think we'll be safe there when the heliosphere bubble pops, given that large proto-rip?

Now where did I put my starship keys ....

.

.

found 'em!

Humph

[TheRealFixer]

Well, this particular carbon-unit infesting the third planet is NOT impressed.

What V'ger Wears

[Bob3141592]

I've been to the heliopause and all I got was this lousy t-shirt!

Re:What V'ger Wears

[spot35]

...and the t-shirt was the wrong damn shape!

Turkey..

[crossmr]

Its too early for Thanksgiving... but then I suppose we do have some information lag, maybe its still getting over Easter ham?

Re:Wait for it...

[__aaclcg7560]

You're only saying that to get attention. No wonder the parents won't let you play with their kids. :P

Re:oh great

[no reason to be here]

Most likely the former [mag. field], because then you have negative and positive poles so you can reference what is up and what is down.

The sun's magnetic field reverses itself about every 11 years. It would not be good having a refernce based on something that goes changing itself every 11 years or so.

The reference for "north" and "south" w/regard to the solar system is the ecliptic.

There's a hole in the magnetic layer

[lelitsch]

I think this must be somewhat caused by electronic polution from earth. The only way to restore the magnetosphere is limiting our emmissions of electromagnetic gas.

We should found a grass roots movement to pressure the government to step in and protest in front of the cooperations that are the biggest generators of electromagnetic gas pollution.

Also, I think the government needs to allocate a large amount of money for contractors in the most important congressional districts to develop technology to reduce electromagnetic gas pollution.

(Those who don't understand sarcasm are doomed to repeat it)

Re:There's a hole in the magnetic layer

[Guysmiley777]

Nonono. The obvious solution is to award Halliburton a no-bid multi-trillion dollar contract to combat the shrinkage.

But more importantly

[beelzebub]

How does this spell doom for mankind?

Re:But more importantly

[bhav2007]

I'm sure FOX will figure that one out for us

Whats out there?...

[Instine]

This could suggest the magnetic influence of another body (not withstanding the obvious lack of data issue). e.g. : this kinda thing

Global warming is responsible for this!

[stankulp]

If we don't do something right now the entire magnetosphere is going to collapse.

There is a study by 10,938 Sociology professors that proves it!

En1arge your heli0sphere

[mikeeg555]

En1arge your heli0sphere! With our proven program, you can make your heliosphere larger and thicker in just a few short weeks. Would you like to see results by the end of the first week?... You will... Follow our program, and within just a couple months you can be 9 or more AU larger than when you first started.

Re:En1arge your heli0sphere

[PrescriptionWarning]

En1arge your heli0sphere! With our proven program, you can make your heliosphere larger and thicker in just a few short weeks. Would you like to see results by the end of the first week?... You will... Follow our program, and within just a couple months you can be 9 or more AU larger than when you first started.

must be the kind of spam God receives

Re:En1arge your heli0sphere

[Anonymous Coward]

En1arge your heli0sphere! With our proven program, you can make your heliosphere larger and thicker in just a few short weeks. Would you like to see results by the end of the first week?... You will... Follow our program, and within just a couple months you can be 9 or more AU larger than when you first started.

PRODUCT WARNING: avoid black holes, no matter what

Or maybe ...

[LaughingCoder]

This implies that the heliosphere, a spherical bubble of charged low-energy particles created by our Sun's solar wind, is irregularly shaped, bulging in the northern hemisphere and pressed inward in the south

Or maybe it is a regularly shaped sphere but our sun is not the center? Maybe the center is some other extremely dense object, like 's head?

Re:Or maybe ...

[LaughingCoder]

Always preview your posts!

Or maybe it is a regularly shaped sphere but our sun is not the center? Maybe the center is some other extremely dense object, like {insert your favorite whipping person here} 's head?

Re:Or maybe ...

[spot35]

Here, let me help you

Or maybe it is a regularly shaped sphere but our sun is not the center? Maybe the center is some other extremely dense object, like fnord's head?

Re:Or maybe ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or maybe you're an idiot.

The heliosphere is created by the electromagnetic and ionic emissions from the sun pushing outward against the magnetic field and intersetellar gases, like a bubble.

If there were anything that had that kind of output in our solar system, other than our sun, I'm pretty sure that we'd have detected it by now.

Re:Or maybe ...

[CthulhuDreamer]

No, it was done correctly. He Who Shall Not Be Named is commonly referred to as " " in the possessive.

Re:here's a question you shouldn't be able to answ

[Guysmiley777]

42

Re:oh great

[Anonymous Coward]

It's fun to list a bunch of possibilities, but to answer the original question, the "southern hemisphere" is simply the part of the sky with negative Declination.

Damn magnetic fields..

[Rob T Firefly]

Voyager has also just realized why its credit cards don't swipe any more, and why all its Journey tapes have been erased.

Forget Global Warming...

[__aaclcg7560]

OMG! The heliopause is shrinking! The heliopause is shrinking!

Re:Forget Global Warming...

[porkchop_d_clown]

This is Bush's fault!

Maybe the turtle's back is squashing it...

[The_REAL_DZA]

Hey, come on, didn't the lady say "it's turtles all the way down!"?

Why assume it's spherical?

[Anonymous Coward]

The earth is not a sphere. Orbits are not circular. Why is everyone surprised that this shape is not precisely round?

We need more samples!

[TheSHAD0W]

This is a great excuse to launch a few thousand starwisps outbound.

Late

[Anonymous Coward]

Oblate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblate_spheroid

Re:here's a question you shouldn't be able to answ

[Anonymous Coward]

Argh, I feel like such a fucking nerd for getting that reference.

Ehehe

[nnn0]

it's like if you where born in a speeding cabriolet and thought that the natural state of your hair is to point straight backwards :) of course, in a speeding cabriolet, i guess it would be :D

I know what ti is...

[tfcdesign]

GLOBAL WARMING!!! :X

A better article...

[Anonymous Coward]

...from a far less clueless source.

Here is an illustration of the phenomenon.

-mcgrew

Caused by humans

[liquid-groove]

Clearly this massive shinkage is due to human activity here on earth. We're now not only destroying our own planet, we're destroying the solar system.

Re:Caused by humans

[rxrx]

Clearly.

Fox is already making a miniseries

[us7892]

This will be picked up by Fox News, and CBS, and the other networks, and soon we'll hear stories of how the Galaxy is imploding on Earth, and we're all going to die as the Earth and Sun are crashed together.

By next month, "Galaxy Disaster - The Apocolypse" will be a Fox miniseries, and C-list actors will save the world, based on an excentric scientist's last hour idea to save the world.

Exactly what I was thinking!

[default luser]

I mean, when you have the mass of the Great A'Tuin on the bottom, plus the mass of 4 giant elephants in the center, and the relatively puny mass of the Discworld on top...OF COURSE the magnetic field is going to be a bit assymetrical.

Duh!

Time to rename the helipsphere

[Comboman]

This implies that the heliosphere, a spherical bubble of charged low-energy particles created by our Sun's solar wind, is irregularly shaped, bulging in the northern hemisphere and pressed inward in the south.

I guess we need to change the name of the heliosphere to helioelipsoid or maybe helioblob.

Aaaaaahhhhhh..........

[chrissz]

Voyager I obviously punched a hole in our Heliosphere and it is now deflating like the cosmic water balloon it is. All of our solar system goodness is leaking out into the universe. Now there is nothing to keep the Overlords out! That's it for me. I'm jumping on the next comet out of here!

I wonder.

[Anonymous Coward]

Will Santa have to move when the poles flip?

Re:I wonder.

[njchick]

Will Santa have to move when the poles flip?

No. Santa will die, and Anti-Santa will arise.

Aldebaran Galactic Warming Treaty of Stardate 2476

[Illbay]

Algore tried to warn us about this.

Re:Wait for it...

[tim1724]

Keynote, not PowerPoint.

Half the solar system is gone!

[StarkRG]

It never ends!

It never ends that way too!

I know! Let's name it Steve.

Re:Wait for it...

[FiosFiend]

Followed by a slide that shows how he invented solar wind.

WTF?

[FhnuZoag]

Can someone explain the slew of Global Warming related snarks and references? I mean, what the hell is similar between this and the other?

Global warming, we have a well understood and physically justified model whose conclusions are gradually confirmed by more and more evidence.
Heliopause, we have a naive model based on little evidence, whose conclusion - uniformity of the Heliopause based on lack of apparent altering factors - is refuted by two pieces of probably not very significant evidence. We have no historical evidence of how the heliopause has altered in the past for us to compare our data.
Global warming, we have a reasonable selection of known factors, and by seeing what effects they have on our model, we find that we cannot statistically reject GH gases as a significant issue.
Heliopause, we have almost no known factors that can cause this distortion, and on the basis of this, we only know that the present factors appear insufficient based on our conventional assumptions.
Global warming, we have a broad scientific consensus shown in all peer reviewed publications, questioned by only a few with dubious records of intellectual integrity and whose arguments have been shown to have hilarious errors over and over again.
Heliopause, we have no consensus, because this is a new question that no one has tried to answer yet. All anyone can do is throw hypotheses up in the air. And no, 'human effect' is not one of them because the Earth goes around and around so any effect on the heliopause would be averaged out, and because we don't exert any measurable influence that could affect such a massive thing. (Inverse square law applies, and everything)

So, in summary, I don't get the joke. If this is at all like climatology, then the analogy would be with climatology in the 19th century, where we've only just begun to try to understand the weather. In that case, history shows waiting a few years will not be enough. A century, maybe...

Re:WTF?

[rcamans]

Can someone explain where in the web or literature they explain why the posibility that this global warming is not the standard precurser to an Ice Age? As far as I can find out, every ice age is preceeded by a big climg in CO2 and temperature. Just look at wikipedia for a start. So how is this global warming any different?

Re:WTF?

[Doug Dante]

"Global warming, we have a broad scientific consensus shown in all peer reviewed publications, questioned by only a few with dubious records of intellectual integrity and whose arguments have been shown to have hilarious errors over and over again."

No.

There are serious scientists who question the theory that global warming or climate change as it's more properly called now is caused by human activity.

Just check out wikipedia

But hey, if I were an intellectually lazy armchair scientist, I'd probably just accuse them of being quacks so that I didn't have to spend the time to consider their ideas too.

Heck, when was the last time that a "broad scientific concensus" was overturned?

Re:WTF?

[dcocos]

Check this out and the response of the scientist who anti-global warming stuff is based on and finally this study of peer reviewed journals (ie not armchair science)

There are serious scientists who question the theory that global warming or climate change as it's more properly called now is caused by human activity.

Would you point me to some serious scientific studies that shows this?

Re:WTF?

[termigan]

Well, if you conclude that the size of the heliosphere has changed sizes by 10% between the two measurements, there are multiple theories that lead to that conclusion. One of which, is that the sun varies it's energy output rate on some time scale. If the sun's output actually varies, then that could affect the amount of energy the earth absorbed in a year. Energy absorbed is converted into heat, so if the energy is not then re-emmitted into space at a sufficiently high rate, the earth's surface and atmospheric temperatures go up.

Lots of ifs there, but they're all the ifs that the atmospheric scientists have to consider to come up with a model in any case. Except that they're thinking that the sun has constant output. Hard to say if that's correct or for more than the 50 years we've been in space, probably..

Re:WTF?

[Doug Dante]

Thank you for your reply.

The links you sent regarding the political advertising campaign Competitive Enterprise Institute is not germain to the discussion of whether there are real scientists who have concerns regarding global warming. That's politics.

The article you point to states:

The 928 papers were divided into six categories: explicit endorsement of the consensus position, evaluation of impacts, mitigation proposals, methods, paleoclimate analysis, and rejection of the consensus position. Of all the papers, 75% fell into the first three categories, either explicitly or implicitly accepting the consensus view; 25% dealt with methods or paleoclimate, taking no position on current anthropogenic climate change. Remarkably, none of the papers disagreed with the consensus position.

A more fair summary might be, "Some number of scientific papers, which we won't publish, explicitely endorse the consensus position. If you add those in with papers that evaluate the impact of global warming (whatever its causes), or study ways to mitigate it (whatever its causes), you get a solid majority of 75% of papers that support the consensus either explicitely or implicitely."

"Also, a minority of papers (1/4) study the effectiveness with which we measure this phenomenon, which may question its severity, or they offer alternative hypotheses for global warming beyond human creation to the extent which they can't be said to implicitely support the concensus, but they don't outright reject the idea that humans are helping to cause it."

And from that, the average person will conclude something like: "There is no debate. Global warming is real and it is caused by humans, and anyone who denies it is a quack with laughable logical skills."

Sorry, that's not an accurate summary.

Re:WTF?

[cparker15]

There is no debate. Global warming is real and it is caused by humans, and anyone who denies it is a quack with laughable logical skills.

I'd say that just about sums it up...

Re:WTF?

[dcocos]

There are serious scientists who question the theory that global warming or climate change as it's more properly called now is caused by human activity.

You still didn't answer my question:
Would you point me to some serious scientific studies in peer reviewed journals that show this?

Re:WTF?

[Doug Dante]

Just saw your post. Doubt that you'll read this.

I just clicked around with this google search on scholarly articles:

The first link was this, from two scientists at the University of Illinois.

This paper argues that global warming is mostly currently caused by humans, so I think you might find that these people aren't "quacks".

HOWEVER, they argue IN THE INTRODUCTION that climate change for most of the 20th century, up to and including earlier warming and cooling the 1970s, was "due to varriations in the sun's irradiance". NOT PEOPLE!

AND THEY SAY "there is a residual [non-human] factor at work in the climate system".

None of this means that we can't agree that solar and wind power are good things, and eliminating smog producing and disease causing auto emissions is a good thing - it's just that we should show some respect for scientists who know more about this than we do, and not just call them quacks or wackos because their research might invalidate one or more of the "facts" we believe.

Re:WTF?

[dcocos]

>Just saw your post. Doubt that you'll read this.

I'm reading it now.

>I just clicked around with this google search on scholarly articles:

Can you post a link to the search

>The first link was this, from two scientists at the University of Illinois.

That is a good start a respectable university.

>This paper argues that global warming is mostly currently caused by humans, so I think you might >find that these people aren't "quacks".

What paper? Does it have a title? Has it been published in a peer reviewed journal? I've never used the word "quack" but I, still, have yet to see any articles published in peer reviewed scientific journals that make you case.

Re:WTF?

[Doug Dante]

Sorry, the URLs were stripped for some reason. Possibly because I put them in

Google search for "global warming volcanoes research". Click "scholarly articles".

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=global%20warmi ng%20volcanoes%20research&hl=en&hs=KO9&lr=&client= firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&oi=schola rt

NG Andronova, ME Schlesinger - Geophysical Research Letters, 2000
Causes of Global Temperature Changes during the 19th and 20th Centuries
Climate Research Group, Department of Atmospheric Sciences
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

http://crgd.atmos.uiuc.edu/publications/Causes_of_ dT.pdf

Theory

[p3d0]

Nobody said it had to be symmetrical, but these are smart folks who understand such things as magnetic fields and plasma dynamics, and I presume their theories told them it should be symmetrical. The fact that it's not will lead them to refine their models.

I don't even know why I have to say this. It's scientific method 101.

Some corrections and clarifications...

[jnik]

I should learn to not read slashdot during AGU.

I forgot whose talk I heard yesterday (they changed the speaking order; session was SH22A) but basically: V1 passed the termination shock (NOT the heliopause; summary is wrong) at the end of 2004; this was the big announcement at last spring AGU meeting. Before that, they were seeing foreshock signatures (plasma and magnetic). V2 is now seeing those signatures, but seeing them a fair bit closer in than V1 was observing them. So, V2 has not passed the heliopause, nor even the termination shock, but appears to be nearing the TS closer to the Sun than V1 did. This is a surprising/interesting result, but not huge overturning of theory or anything. Learning the structure of the outer regions of the Solar System is the whole point of these exercises (and the upcoming IBEX mission).

MOD PARENT UP!

[ClickOnThis]

Wow. Well said. Just one point:

I don't understand quantum mechanics

Actually, you're in good company.

Must protect the Caribou

[doyoudig]

This region of space is used by many heards of Space Caribou. I sure hope this probe didnt hit one of them.

Duhh! Deflation

[HomerJayS]

The obvious answer is that Voyager 1 punctured the helioshpere as it passed through. It (helioshpere) has been deflating ever since (much like a balloon with a slow leak).

Just be thankful that it did not pop in a violent manner like most fully inflated balloons do when punctured.

Now, do we have any volunteers to travel to the location of the hole with a patch and some rubber cement?

Re:Wait for it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, Troll - how's life under that bridge? Eaten any goats lately?

spheroid region?

[Analogy Man]

I am quite certain that the solar system is in FACT banana shaped.

Re:spheroid region?

[Mark Hood]

This new learning fascinates me. Explain to me again how sheep's bladders may be used to prevent earthquakes...

Mark

Re:spheroid region?

[papercut2a]

Silly poster! The universe is, in fact, shaped like a doughnut. Just ask Homer & Stephen (Hawking).

Re:spheroid region?

[Draykonis]

Finally, proof of Intelligent Design. Clearly God intended it so that if you ever needed to put the Solar System in your mouth, it would be angled perfectly so that it would slide right in.

Caused by humans

[jag7720]

Or it could be caused by all the soccer moms in their SUVs driving around town drinking Cafe lattes.

Why it's Bush's fault:

[Anonymous Coward]

Because had he spent money on the space program instead of the Iraq war, we could have seen this coming 20 years ago!!!!!

How is it peculiar?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's the only one we've seen?

VGER

[Anonymous Coward]

We can just wait 300 years until it comes back and tells us everything there is to know about the universe...

but seriously, its amazing that these things launched in the 70s are still contributing to science in a meaningful way, other than as marketing gimics or notes in history.

Well, duh.

[mattsucks]

Have you ever seen a PERFECTLY spheroidal meatball?

I didn't think so.

Someone please mod parent up!

[logik3x]

Thanks. At least one person here doesn't talk out of his ass.

Re:Someone please mod parent up!

[geekoid]

Now how do you know that? ;)

Re:here's a question you shouldn't be able to answ

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah. Startrek.

Re:oh great

[AoT]

Ok, either I know far less about astronomy than I thought or that page doesn't actually explain north and south in regards to the sun.

Maybe someone could explain, laymans terms preferably.

Occam's Razor

[ClickOnThis]

I read this a day or two ago, and wondered to myself, "Whoever said that it had to be symmetrical?"

Well, nobody. But science attempts to make the best inference possible based on a combination of available data and supported a priori knowledge (such as well-tested theories.) In the absence of contradictory information, symmetry is the "best guess" because it makes the fewest assumptions given the data you have. For example, if you hypothesize an asymmetry without any data to support it, then you beg questions such as what shape the asymmetry takes, what its orientation is, etc. You have no right to make such a hypothesis because you have no data to settle these questions.

Now, when you get additional information (such as the Voyager 2 data) you have a chance to improve your hypothesis by, e.g., adding an asymmetry. But again, you can only add details to your hypothesis based on the new data, and nothing more.

Assymetry

[Kadin2048]

OF COURSE the magnetic field is going to be a bit assymetrical.

Assymetrical?

So if Voyager II found a bulge ... that means we're ... where?

Re:Assymetry

[daniel23]

I knew it for all my life, can't say I'm surprised it has been prooven now.

Re:Assymetry

[kurzweilfreak]

Cue the "Urectum" jokes.

Reminds me of an old astrophysics joke...

[podperson]

Which I've probably posted before...

1) We've measured the heliopause twice, years apart.
2) During that time, the sun has gotten measurably brighter.
3) Based on these TWO observations, taken a long time apart, we conclude ...

The joke:

Three scientists are taking a break from a conference in Scotland. They walk together over some grassy hills and come upon a black sheep.

"My goodness," exclaims the Astrophysicist. "I had no idea that Scottish sheep are black."

"I don't know how you call yourself a scientist," retorts the Physicist. "You've made one observation and from it lept to a sweeping conclusion. All we know is that there is at least one black sheep in Scotland."

"Hmph!" says the Mathematician. "In fact, it may only be black on this side."

Sunnapping

[Eideteker]

Aren't we at a solar minimum right now?

I was goofing around...lighten up

[sgant]

I was just kidding around, didn't know it was going to turn into all this.

My reasoning behind all the goofiness? It just struck me that the heliopause was shrinking based on two measurements. Shrinking in this day and age seems to be seen as bad for some reason so I just put it that Al Gore will say that the shrinking heliopause is due to mans dumping of blah blah blah blah...I mean, it's absurd right? Of course he won't say that. Of course there's nothing we know about why it's smaller one measurement and larger in another. We didn't cause it, we just measured the damn thing....hence my lame attempt at humor along with the fact that Al Gore is coming out with a movie based on a presentation he's been giving all over the world about global warming. Sorry...

Don't worry, I won't try it again.

Or....

[deKernel]

Or is it from global warming? Think about it.

Re:Reminds me of an old astrophysics joke... OT

[Anonymous Coward]

Which reminds me of a lamer joke along the same lines.

As part of a test, an artsy (arts student - UofW insult), an engineer, and a mathie were given two problems two solve.

For the first problem, they were given a bucket, access to a tap, and a house that was on fire.

The artsy wet his pants and cried.
The mathie and the engineer each took the bucket to the tap, filled it with water, and proceeded to put out the fire.

For the second problem, they were given matches, a bucket, access to a tap, and a house.
The artsy wet his pants and cried.
The mathie took the matches, set the house on fire, thus reducing the problem to a previously solved problem and then left the new problem as an exercise for the reader.
The engineer took the bucket to the nearest keg and got himself some beer.

Thanks, I'm here all week...

Let's do some physics and find out.

[xiphoris]

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/scriptcenter/topi cs/msh/download.mspx

Yes, and me waving my hand back and forth has a gravitational effect on your face, no matter where it is. However, that effect is not detectable by any instruments we have -- error from other things far, far, far outweigh any actual change due to my hand's gravity. The same is true for these planets. But don't take my word for it! Let's do the math.

F = G*m1*m2/r^2 is a pretty basic math formula from physics describing the force from gravity [source] between two bodies.

The nearest known star (besides our sun, of course) is Proxima Centauri at about 4.2 light years = 3.97342193 × 10^13 km = 39,700,000,000,000 km.

I don't even need to tell you the mass of the stars for you to figure out where the calculations are going with a number that big for R. And remember it's squared. So whatever mass multiplication we get, it's divided by a number on the order of (10^13)^2 = 10000000000000000000000000000.

Although other nearby stars, and indeed, the whole rest of the universe certainly do influence us, the effects are negligable because of the exponential decrease in force proportional to distance. The effect of my hand on your face is probably more likely to be measured.

Re:Let's do some physics and find out.

[VWJedi]

If we're looking at Wikipedia, it also says the following "The edge of this bubble [the heliosphere] is known as the termination shock; the point at which the solar wind collides with the opposing winds of the interstellar medium." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_system#Farthes t_regions)

It appears this is a region where the forces of solar wind are approximately equal to the forces of interstellar winds.

To modify your analogy, it's as if you are waving your hand at the same time as someone else is waving their hand. There is a point I can stand at where the gravitational force of your hand and the other persons hand will be equal. The relative masses and distances of the hands determine this point. This is somewhat similar to "Lagrangian points". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_point)

That URL was not supposed to be there.

[xiphoris]

I was checking out the new beta and must've had the URL in the clipboard. I meant it to be a citation of your post. It's not a plug.

My apologies.

Crap on a crap cracker!

[93 Escort Wagon]

Why are you all missing the obvious? Voyager I obviously punctured the heliopause, and now it's deflating!

Watch Out!

[slagheap]

That's Reaver territory.

Ob. reference (re: Symmetrical?)

[VanessaE]

You'd be pretty damn surprised if you blew up a balloon and it formed the shape of a cube, wouldn't you?

Oh, I dunno....I can think of one example of that. Ok, so it's an animated bubble and not a physical balloon. Same idea though :-)

(For those not familiar with the movie: At one point in the movie, Timothy Q. Mouse challenges Dumbo to blow a square bubble, to which Dumbo responds with a neatly cube-shaped one. Hard to believe that scene didn't make IMDB's quotes listing.)

I just wanted to say..

[StarfishOne]

That the Voyager probes with their 'Grand Tour' mission keep impressing me! Every time I see news like this, I end up checking the Voyager Project homepage

Taking into account that the technology in these machines is from the 70's, perhaps even from the 60's.. and they're still going strong. After almost 30 years in space, high speeds (vs. dust/debris), radiation, the cold, and such a weak signal when it reaches Earth:

"... located around the world is truly amazing. The antennas must capture Voyager information from a signal so weak that the power striking the antenna is only 10 exponent -16 watts (1 part in 10 quadrillion). A modern-day electronic digital watch operates at a power level 20 billion times greater than this feeble level."

I really recommend checking out the Voyager's 'Did you know?' website, for more amazing facts. You'll be amazed!

Finally I'd like to take my hat off to all the people who have helped to realize this project from the beginning to this very day. I often wish I'd have been born 2 decades earlier with a chance to be part of such an amazing (engineering) team!

Re:I just wanted to say..

[chawly]

I agree with you - totally. But I can't take my hat off to them. I left the said hat in the train last week, so now my hat's off to everybody. If I ever get my hat back, then .... then I'll take it of to them.

Of course!

[angst_ridden_hipster]

Everyone knows that global warming deflates the heliopause. I mean, like duh!

Or was it the other way around?

Yep. In a Bubble. Or Ballon

[aix tom]

And Voyager I poked a hole in it. And what happens to a balloon with a hole in it? Right. It goes pfffffffffffffttttttt.....

Which is what Voyager 2 now detected. All pretty simple and straingforward, ain't it?

Re:Yep. In a Bubble. Or Ballon

[PFI_Optix]

Pretty soon it'll reach Earth, then people will start disappearing as if they never existed, and the universe will shrink until it's just one person in one room and the computer says she's the only person who was ever on the ship and...

oh, wait...

*turns off TV*

Sorry, I get a little confused sometimes.

Just one possibility I can think of.

[jd]

Some of the recently-discovered trans-Neptunian planets/planetoids cross the heliopause and actually reside outside of it for most of their respective orbits. (When they are outside, they are outside the "solar system" proper, so are they part of our system or "extrasolar"?)

This means that the center of mass (both instantaneous and over time) for the solar system is off-center, and that the Kuipier Belt may be non-uniform (which may therefore provide more screening from the galactic winds on that side).

Now, because the sun is not stationary with respect to the galaxy, the galactic winds will not be uniform in the direction of motion. Because the galaxy is not of uniform composition, the galactic winds will also be predominantly from the galactic core. (The galaxy will have a galactic equiv. of the heliopause, in which the pressure from the galaxy will match the pressure from remote galaxies.)

However, it's never quite that simple. There are structures in the galaxy that are significantly off the galactic plane, and these too will be exerting some pressure from their own particle streams.

All in all, the idea that the heliopause isn't a perfect circle isn't that mysterious. What IS mysterious is why anyone thought it would be, and what is intriguing is what shape it actually has, given the sheer number of factors that could influence it.

Strange Naming

[craXORjack]

Both Voyager spacecrafts were launched from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida: Voyager II headed out on August 20, 1977, Voyager I on September 5, 1977.

Can anyone tell me why the probe launched first is called Voyager II and the one launched last is Voyager I?

Magnetic Reversals

[Anonymous Coward]

The Earth's major magnetic reversals generally occur every few hundred thousand years. During reversals, before the magnetic poles have stabilized, the poles may move very rapidly, switch rapidly, and/or there may be many positive and negative poles.

It would suck if north and south had to correspond to the magnetic poles; what a PITA to have three different directions for "North."

One million years would be an awfully long time without a reversal, although right now we're up to about 700,000 years, which is also unusually long.

Pop the frelling bubble Pilot

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell Moya to pop it Pilot.

*DOH!* Thanks for the corrections

[ClickOnThis]

I should learn to not read slashdot during AGU.

And I should have found out that the heliospheric bow shock is not the same as the termination shock. :-( I wish I had looked here before I submitted
the article.

V1 passed the termination shock (NOT the heliopause; summary is wrong) at the end of 2004 [...] V2 has not passed the heliopause, nor even the termination shock, but appears to be nearing the TS closer to the Sun than V1 did.

Thanks for setting me straight. Serves me right for thinking "near the bow (sic) shock" = "pretty much at the heliopause". Time to help myself to some of this.

Re:*DOH!* Thanks for the corrections

[jnik]

I should fix up the Wikipedia article at some point; it seems a bit misleading to me at points. In the meantime, I point interested parties to the IBEX web site for basic background info. In particular, Section E of the IBEX Concept Study Report is handy. Of course, I can't find it on the site now....

Apropos of everything, IBEX is a SMEX (Small Explorer) mission. Budget cuts have delayed the next Announcement of Opportunity on the Explorer program (IBEX itself should be fine). This is where science gets done, folks. My pizza fund appreciates you contacting your congresscritter to encourage continued and expanded support of NASA (and NSF, while you're at it).

AU?

[crashelite]

last time i checked 1 AU stands for astronomical unit what IS the distance from the earth to the sun. so it would be 85X the distance from here to the sun... so the caption really should say something along that line then how we are "much closer to the Sun than the location of 85 AU found by Voyager 1." that really makes garbled sense... considering we are 1AU from the sun.

Lost in spaaaaaaaace

[fatmal]

bulging in the northern hemisphere and pressed inward in the south.

Is there a north or south in space?? How do you tell?

maybe..

[rsperry79]

aliens got tired of our sh*tty TV shows as of late.....

Lies, damned lies, and statistics

[fusion9290991]

So they've based these theories on what essentially amounts to 2 data points? Gimme a break.

Even the old sailing ships used to have THREE compasses.

And anyway, why the surprise that it's not symmetrical?

Illegal electrons!

[Terwin]

So many illegal eletrons are trying to cross our southern border that they have actually managed to push it back!

We need better enforcement to ensure that those illegal electrons do not take our jobs and leave us beaten and in a ditch!

Send those electrons back where they came from, support research to make our sun go nova today!

A geometry problem, among other things...

[DrKC9N]

the heliosphere, a spherical bubble of charged low-energy particles created by our Sun's solar wind, is irregularly shaped

I'd love to know what an irregular sphere looks like. Last time I checked, a sphere was a regular shape...

Heliozone Depletion

[NetSettler]

Could it not simply mean that it changes in size?

With this kind of shrinkage, it sounds like a much worse problem than ozone layer depletion. Perhaps it's the effect of ever-increasing television and cell phone broadcasts over the past few decades, eroding our protection from the total vacuum of space. It sounds dangerous to me.

Time to write my Congressfolk and ask them if they have a position on this... They'll know. They always seem to be on top of everything I write them about.

What will she, the Anti-Santa be like I wonder?

[gd23ka]

What will she be like, a stunning female in her early twenties wearing a green swimsuit and fly through the air with a bunch of reindeers strapped to her back? Instead of bringing us presents will she go from door to door and demand to be given presents? Will she still enter and exit houses through the chimney or will she dig her way into houses suddenly surfacing in the living room?

Above all, will she say still "Ho!Ho!Hoooooh!" or will she rather say "Oh! Oh! Oooooh!"??

We have plenty of questions here regarding the pole reversal.

Lol

[woolio]

Of course not....

Voyager I popped a hole in the bubble.

Voyager II noticed that it shrank as it was deflating.