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Lower Saxony KDE Migration
An anonymous reader writes "ZDNet reports on a recent German Linux migration by the tax authority in Lower Saxony which has made the decision to migrate an impressive 12,000 desktops to SuSE Linux using KDE. The project, which is now in process converting 300 desktops daily, moves systems from Solaris x86 version 8, which the organisation has been running since 2002. The migrations are reported as going well thus far. KDE's Kiosk desktop customisation, source code access and licensing costs were cited as key reasons for the decision. Congratulations to all involved, and best of luck going forward with this effort!"
It's pretty easy to migrate from Solaris.
If we start hearing about big Win32 -> *nix migrations, THEN maybe we can say kill -9 to billy boy...
But more importantly, it's telling that we're not hearing about good, honest, honorable American migrations. We know all about Germans and the so-called "sport" they are hosting for the so-called "world"... and in any case, we know Linux isn't as reliable as Windows yet...
Isn't it the naming convention that all programs starting with a G are Gnome based? Well, it ain't Kermany...
"Freely accessible sources, no license costs as well as optimum support of current hardware."
I thought, I'd never live long enough to see the day someone will ever say this... Look away, it's just some dust in my eyes...
"Don't let fools fool you. They are the clever ones."
But it's still a score 1 for the OS movement because they're going to Linux and not going from Solaris to Microsoft.
This is also good since the last few days we've seen some slightly negative press (translate FUD) about Linux.
That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
I noticed the K thing with KDE when I used SUSE and SLAX but I've not really noticed a "G" thing with Gnome... I'm strugling to think of anything really that I use that has the "G" thing... (well, there is Same GNOME... but thats not got G as a prefix)
*''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
Do you really think, that with the formidable task of a 12000 PC migration, they considered the world of operating systems to be comprised of only Linux and Solaris? Futhermore while Windows is an obvious option, have you ever heard of OSX being used, on any comparable scale, by any international government?
Gaim, IM Beagle, content indexer and search tool Galeon, Web Browser GARNOME, build utility for the GNOME Desktop GB, GNOME Basic GConf, GNOME Configuration Daemon GDM, GNOME Display Manager gdome2, GNOME DOM Engine Getix, XML editor gedit, Text Editor GNOME Fax, Faxing Software Gimp, Graphics package Glade, Interface Builder gnocl, Tcl binding GNOME DB, Generic database Interface GNOME Games, fun for your desktop GNOME-GCJ, Java bindings GNOME Useability Project GNOME Meeting, Video conferencing Software GNOME Network, Client Network-oriented Tools Gnome Python, Python Bindings GNOME Print, GNOME printing library GNOME System Tools, System Configuration GNOME Power Manager, System Configuration GNOME VFS, Filesystem Abstraction library GNU, GNU for which GNOME is sub-project Gnucash, Personal Finance Manager Gnumeric, Spreadsheet GOB, GNOME Object Builder Gossip, GNOME Jabber chat client Guppi, Charting application GStreamer, Multimedia Architecture GTK+, Graphical Toolkit Library GTK-Doc, API documentation tool gtkmm, C++ bindings GtkHTML 2, HTML rendering library GtkPerl, Perl Bindings Gtranslator, translation file editor Guikachu, resource editor for PalmOS applications GtkMathView, widget for MathML rendering, editing, interaction Gwget, Download Manager
download and burn linux with one click on windows
touche.
/.
I guess because I only really use Oo, Firefox and the terminal I never really have a lot to do with that stuff. Also I hadn't noticed that the reason why it's called Gaim is because of the "G" thing... who says you can't learn things on
*''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
back in the 90's, Linux is ignored and I became a laughing stock in University. Now who's laughing now? What we've been deprieved before is freedom, now that freedom is back.
For those that don't know about KDE, it was started by a German guy and most KDE users and devs live in Germany (though it's now popular in other countries too), also Suse was German and used KDE as its main desktop. So lots of people are pushing KDE there just like they did at Munich and now in Lower Saxony.
I will be surprised when some country in Asia or America that is not known for its KDE community decides to switch to KDE.
That being said, it's of course great that did it in Germany.
download and burn linux with one click on windows
While I haven't used SuSE since 1998 or so, its nice to see they're coming along. One thing I take note of is the mention of "licensing costs were cited as key reasons for the decision.". I think there are many here who will take a "it's free!" approach to that statement, and that is not necessarily the case. Sure there are tons of free programs available, but most are forgetting the SuSE/Novell issue where SuSE isn't entirely as free as say CentOS, Ubuntu, FreeBSD, etc., there are some minor caveats, OpenExchange, etc. As for replacing x86Sol, I've never taken x86Sol seriously. If you ask me it was unstable, riddled with hardware issues, and had more security issues then Solaris on a Sparc.
I'd thought of installing SuSE using OpenExchange because of the cost factor when I worked at a smaller company but I found I could do just as good using an alternative so I ended up installing CentOS webservers, proxy servers, Solaris 10 for mail and LDAP on a v280, and ended up configuring a nicely equipped intranet for under 5k. I wound up going open source for most tools, e.g. DotProject replaced MS Project server and saved about 4k. SugarCRM replaced SuradoCRM at about 8k. CentOS replaced MS Windows SMB 2003 for about another 4k. I saved the company a lot of money but ended up to my neck in work. Was pretty neat to get things going, and I had originally wanted to use SuSE before they started selling seats for OpenExchange. Its always nice though to see the distros moving up... Right now, I'm back into the telco/communications (VoIP arena to be exact) and I was lucky enough to be in a Linux shop with flexibility to use what we feel gets the job done right... Not what magazines and researchers often sponsored by MS point to as "the perfect solution"
Infiltrated dot Net
I'm using Konq right now and it looks ok. The only problem I see is on the section bar where the text becomes garbled. If I highlight the text the problem goes away until the page is reloaded.
:-)
_ slashdot1.png shows the error.
There aren't any real usability problems with the new layout. At least none since they moved the article links.
http://fs.nile.homelinux.net:8000/~john/goofed_up
They'll think I've lost control again and leave it all to evolution. -- Supreme Being, Time Bandits
Hopefully Slashdot will. But until it get fixed, you can apply a workaround by disabling javascript for shlasdot. Just add .slashdot.org Reject as a domain-Specific setting for JavaScript in Konqueror.
I bet that part of the reason is that Solaris x86 has Gnome support, but doesn't have tight KDE integration. [Note: I'm more of a Gnome user myself.] They also seem to be doing a one-to-one migration of the clients. I was wondering of they might be moving to a more "thin client" model. Anybody have more details?
What are you talking about ? It works perfectly fine in my Safari browser since day one.
There is, however, evidence that these folks are migrating from one solid OS to another solid OS. Perhaps they're planning on getting some work done.
If they didn't move to Linux they would have moved to windows or Mac (well windows actually). So in a way that's 12000 desktops that MS lost.
And since when is deployment of 12000 desktops not evidence that linux is ready for the desktop? It's on the deskops right?
evil is as evil does
-1 Troll seems harsh, almost as if some crackpipe-wielding mod was too quick to judge. The 'Linux isn't as reliable as Windows' link could've come from the Paul Thurrot Supersite and should definitely provide light relief to Linux zealots of whatever denomination. I laughed anyway and I don't particularly care for Linux that much.
No, because the users are already experianced with Solaris, which is not exactly a typical desktop OS, so these are not your typical desktop users. They may love Linux, but it doesn't tell us anything about the average desktop user who doesn't have a Solaris background.
Philosophy.
What are you talking about ? It works perfectly fine in my Safari browser since day one.
Same here. Looks perfect in Safari to me.
I see a couple of things happening though...
1. KDE is not a stable desktop. Yes Yes stop turning red, I mean it is not stable like CDE is stable. This could lead to frustration among 12,000 users that were used to probably the most stable OS (sol 8 is a rock), using an insanely boring and stable desktop (CDE).
2. Now that these people will be able to do all the cool things you can do with a modern unix and KDE, the IT people are going to go crazy
and have to hire more people and work mucho overtime.
"Did you notice you've been using linux all this time?"
"no."
"Well, that's KDE running on SuSE. When did they switch?"
"I don't know. They switched what now? Who's Katie?"
I asked her colleagues in the English department if they knew when the switch took place. No one noticed it. SD loves to have debates about whether *nix is ready to replace windows for the everyday user. Ok, so maybe joe schmo or the proverbial English-major girlfriend (or boyfriend) wouldn't be able to install Ubuntu or SuSE, but if it's there, they can use it. There's a lot of money to be saved on public terminals for general use.
Actually, a lot of the setups are kiosk mode. So these are less than your typical desktop users. (Yikes!)
plus if you think about it, K is kinda Kool
Kool is also "Bold, Smooth, and Fresh"?
Although KDE probably doesn't want to be linked with it.
http://www.kool.com/
Yup, Safari Sagoodie
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
I'll bite. My Fedora Core 4 x86-64 box works absolutely perfectly for me, and identically to the FC4 i386 box that sits next to it.
More lies, surely? Mark Kretschmann, one of the Amarok leads, recently wrote:
Also, I like the way you show your appreciation for their work on a media player you obviously like by calling them "stupid". I'm sure it would make them feel really good about sharing their work with you.
Pirate Party UK
I could see Linux taking over the kiosk (and ATM) world. There are no set-up issues, no compatibility issues, and users don't need to install software/games. Really only one program needs to run, and as long as the OS doesn't crash all is well.
Philosophy.
4) Amarok is intended to be a software for all desktops, not just KDE.
He was speaking "all desktops" as in "kde, gnome, enlightenment", etc. IIRC there is no version in planning at all for WinToys
The real problem is the horrible horrible font (Verdana, IIRC) that Slashdot asks for specifically now. I haven't been able to fix this through stylesheet overrides yet...
Game! - Where the stick is mightier than the sword!
I tried to install OS X recently on my Thinkpad and it failed to detect any of the hardware. OS X is simply not ready for the desktop.
I like how this got modded "offtopic". Classy.
Philosophy.
Konqi only started smoking because of peer pressure from "Bob", and he can quite any time.
The Farewell Tour II
Konqueror user here...
I wouldn't know about any problems with javascript; I never have it enabled as a general rule. The problem is the fonts. They're butt ugly and way too small (try opting for the simplest/plainest presentation and you'll see it's worse than you think it could possibly be). I've asked Rob to fix it and he said they would. They've got about half the stuff working okay again but the fonts are still shoddy. That and serving the style sheets (what is it, about 30K per page?) with a URL containing a '?' when they don't need to. That simple little character makes it so the css files can't be web-cached and it further suckifies being stuck behind a modem.
I'm really sorry they gave away a laptop or whatever it was for the new design. They should have just left well-enough alone.
Looks to me like 12000 data entry drones unix terminals are moving to linux. Doesn't say much for solaris and/or the taxmans original planning if they started the planning for the migration off of solaris after deploying it just two years earlier. Must be nice to be able to run a shop like that.
Just also had to try it---
I seen no corruption or slowdown in Konq 3.4.2, on Mandriva 2006.
(Barton 2800+, 1G ram, 440Mx)
Dan Quale... wow! is that really you!!
And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make
Gimp is not a part of Gnome. Gimp actually predates Gnome. If you are going to mention all free projects starting with a 'G', you should mention 'GNU/Linux', 'GNU/Hurd', glibc, gzip and gcc.
Try out fish, the friendly interactive shell.
Sun lost 12000 desktops. That does not mean that "in a way" Microsoft lost them too. Apple did not lose them and neither did Red Hat. Obviously IBM and HP were closer than anyone to "losing" them with their competing UNIX RISC workstations. The availability of Xfree86 in the 1990s meant that Linux was ready for the desktop at any subsequent point to replace proprietary workstations and X terminals, particularly x86 based UNIX. A Linux desktop is cheaper than Windows and Hummingbird as an XTERM. Apple and MS had a big uphill battle in this scenario to gain enough ground to consider this "lost."
Have you Meta Moderated t
My browser dies totally when trying to view comments on slashdot, so I have to fire up firefox to check slashdot, sucks.
Konqueror 3.5.3 on Gentoo 2006.0 AMD64 works fine except for the sidebar links.
Just "gittin-r-done," day after day.
In most corporations users don't need to (actually are prevented from) installing software and games. They mostly run some office software, email, browser and some internally written app (usually in java). Linux is perfectly fine for that.
evil is as evil does
I like most of KDE, but there are a few things that aren't up to scratch.
Konqueror. Just use Firefox.
That funny music player. XMMS, hands down.
Kopete. Haven't tried it for years, but when I last looked at it, anything was better.
The man hours that are wasted trying to re-invent the Konqueror wheel could be better put to use doing something else, and contributing little patches to Firefox to integrate it more into KDE.
Get your own free personal location tracker
Hrm, I'm using konq f9or my browser, and /. works fine for me! (v3.5.2). Works on my mac with safari, too, so I don't know what's going on for you :). Bah.
(actually, firefox is completly unusable in comparison on my laptop - not enough ram, le sigh. I remember complaining kde stuff was bloated as hell, back in the day. irony!)
Commodore 64, Loading up the dance floor!
... would be if they started porting their, already free of charge, income tax return software to linux (elster).
"Nae Kin! Nae Quin! Nae laird! Nae master! We willna be fooled again!"
However, if they have to install software, it'll be much easier for them to do it using adept, rather than going to superdownloads or whatever is it that windows users do when they need new software. Oh, and please, don't say "duh, I just pop in the CD and windows does the rest" because that still doesn't answer where do you get the CD in the first place.
Windows won't be ready for the desktop until you have a repository with 18000 software packages ready for installation anywhere at once, like Ubuntu has.
And I speak as a former VAX/VMS user. I have managed to crash VMS with a bug in a callback function in a Motif application I wrote, but I have never found a way to crash KDE. And when I say "crash VMS" I mean crash the system in a way that nobody else could log in, they couldn't even get a login prompt in a VT-100 terminal.
OK, I know, you mentioned CDE, not VMS, but VAX/VMS was that other legendary "impossible to crash" system, yet it wasn't as stable as Linux/KDE is today.
Changing homepage preferences to "Simple Design" gives me a decent serif font (Times on my setup); perhaps a bit small but I can bump it up in the browser. Some of the graphic elements are a bit off, but that's an acceptable tradeoff.
Verdana is actually an excellent sans screen font; but for body text a serif is much more pleasant, Georgia is about the best IMHO.
Yeah, let's buy 12000 of Apples overpriced, underpowered desktop solutions so everyone can run iphoto and comment on superior design, as opposed to, uh, getting work done using hardware we already have.
If you think that Konq is simply a web application, you're really missing out on the kioslaves.
I'd be lost without fish://
Go to KDE Help Center, Contents tab, Kioslaves. I'm sorry, but FF doesn't do that.
--
BMO
PS, Slashdot still sucks ass rendering in Konq. Vendors, Help, Stories, About and Services all jam themselves up in the left hand corner. Sometimes. Sometimes not. This never happened before the "Whole New Look". And no, it's not my KDE setup. Fresh install. Same thing under 3.5.2 and 3.5.3.
Tahoma's is the shit for sans with Georgia coming up a distance second. Verdana doesn't even place.
:(
Too bad it's only available from M$
Ben
i agree with you 100%. fish is awesome
However, I use the best tool for the job. --> firefox for the http protocol.
It would have been nice if the QGeeko component was maintained and extended though. Being able to embed geeko into konqi would be a major win. (And emulating fiefox Extensions, too...)
Cheers,
Ben
> I hate KDE because it uses QT. A tool that enforces your resulting work to be
> free doesnot really feel likes a free tool.
You are not forced at all to release your KDE software under GPL. Feel free to purchase a Qt license from Trolltech, and you can release your software under whatever license you want.
I'm strugling to think of anything really that I use that has the "G" thing...
Might that be because the KDE apps are simply memorable? (Comare gphoto -- or whatever it's called -- vs digiKam or the mainstream Gnome CD-R burner vs k3b.) The KDE stuff is very good.
Verdana is best at very small sizes. Georgia is serif, Tahoma is sans, so they're just different beasts. After trying everything from Comic sans to Garamond. I've settled on Georgia as my screen reading font (for print I'm more eclectic, but generally choose a Garamond).
Too bad it's only available from M$ :(
You can get them free, quite legally from Corefonts.
"It would have been nice if the QGeeko component was maintained and extended though. Being able to embed geeko into konqi would be a major win. (And emulating fiefox Extensions, too...)"
Yeahbut, that was then and this is now. The _only_ sites I have problems with these days are MS-Only (which are getting fewer and fewer) and Slashdot. The fact that Slashdot rendered fine before the Whole New Look says that Slashdot is doing something wrong compared to what went before, and it's not just me complaining.
I mean, c'mon, Konq now passes Acid2. What more do you want?
The bad render is not fatal. Slashdot is still usable, but it just looks like ass.
--
BMO
Yes, isn't it just terrible when people put restrictions on how you can use the fruits of their labors? I'm glad to hear that you're in favor of free, no-strings-attached labor. So when would be a good time for you to come over and paint my house?
Open Source: I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Yes, that's true. The issue comes up with the set of applications they need to run. When someone wants to run Adobe Acrobat Pro or Illustrator; or the new webmaster needs to run Dreamweaver, then Linux becomes limiting. This is really what holds back adoption.
As long as you mandate open office or open document formats then there would be no problems with giving the occational user windows. In fact there should be a few copies of office so you can convert office documents to other formats anyway.
evil is as evil does
"While I haven't used SuSE since 1998 or so, its nice to see they're coming along"
.. not ready yet ..
:)
.. I ended up installing CentOS .. Solaris .. LDAP .. DotProject .. SugarCRM .. I saved the company a lot of money but ended up to my neck in work."
.. ;)
I like SuSE I really do but
One thing I take note of is the mention of "licensing costs were cited as key reasons for the decision.". I think there are many here who will take a "it's free!" approach to that statement, and that is not necessarily the case.
Well what was actually said was the primary reasons were increased flexibility, enhanced usability and reduced training and support costs and secondarily freely accessible sources, no license costs and optimum support of current hardware.
So that would make licensing costs next to last, near to support of current hardware.
"most are forgetting the SuSE/Novell issue where SuSE isn't entirely as free as say CentOS, Ubuntu, FreeBSD, etc.,
I'm sorry SuSE can be downloaded from the site without restriction. What you do pay for is support an entirely different thing. Do you get free support for these others?
"I've never taken x86Sol seriously. If you ask me it was unstable, riddled with hardware issues"
SuSE only looks good as compared to Solaris 2002
"I'd thought of installing SuSE using OpenExchange because of the cost factor when I worked at a smaller company
Does SuSE offer anything else apart from the cost factor? How about enhanced usability, reduced support costs and better security.
As for more work, do you mean at installation time or day to day maintenence. The article specifically cites Saxony as referring to reduced support costs yet your experience is the exact opposite. How curious as my understanding that nix requires less work to install and virtually none for day to day maintenence - baring a hardware failure that is.
What kind of enterprise are you solely responciple for that is running you off your feet, NASA? and that only saved the company $16,000 per anum, the average salary of a Windows certified professional.? Saxony can get by with most of the PCs runing in kiosk mode.
"I had originally wanted to use SuSE before they started selling seats for OpenExchange"
You only buy a support license for the number of seats and you damn well know it
"Its always nice though to see the distros moving up"
Up to where? You can't get anymore upper that SuSE 10.1 on 64 bit hardware.
davecb5620@gmail.com
That sounds easy to do, but most offices are more decentralized than that. Its really hard to force a particular application set. When you can, management's first inclination is usually to go with the safer market alternative, which in this day is MS.
Easy answer, Qt is going GPL for all platforms unless you fork over some cash (in which case, you get to link it to proprietary software)