Complaints Filed Over Firms Seeking H1-B Holders

Vicissidude writes "Since May, the Programmers Guild has filed 100 complaints with the U.S. Department of Justice, accusing several companies of advertising that they specifically want H-1B workers, a violation of U.S. law. The U.S. Immigration and Nationality Act requires that U.S. jobs must be available to U.S. workers. The complaints stem from ads containing wording such as "We require candidates for H1B from India," and "We sponsor GC [green card] and we do prefer H1B holders," the Programmers Guild said. The Programmers Guild, looking for ads on major online job boards, has so far targeted only ads seeking computer programmers, the guild said. It plans to file 280 more complaints over the next six months."

Comments

Some more info

[PCM2]

InfoWorld has been running articles on this H-1B situation for a while. There's a special report on H-1B visas set up on the site.

Personally, one point that makes me skeptical is that I hear about this from the Programmer's Guild again and again. I'm not sure what the Programmer's Guild does, other than make a big stink about H-1B visas. Not that this is, in and of itself, necessarily a bad thing -- but if the H-1B situation was really as cut and dried, criminal and downright treasonous as the Programmer's Guild says, wouldn't there be some other parties chiming in on the issue?

Re:Some more info

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I'm a member- or rather was, I need to be again once I get my first permanent paycheck in 5 years. They also put out interesting technical articles in their newsletter- the idea is to create better programmers so that we can out-compete India on skills if not price. But it's hard when Free Traitors keep bringing in people to compete with the people already here.

Re:Some more info

[pla]

I'm not sure what the Programmer's Guild does, other than make a big stink about H-1B visas.

Might I suggest going to, say, their web site and reading the plain-English ByLaws page? In particular, "ARTICLE 3 - PURPOSE", which contains a bulleted list of, well, what they do.


but if the H-1B situation was really as cut and dried, criminal and downright treasonous as the Programmer's Guild says, wouldn't there be some other parties chiming in on the issue?

Follow the money... Who benefits by driving down the cost of competant IT work? Hint - not "everybody but IT workers", because when we have money, we spend it as though the apocalypse will happen tomorrow.


As for whether or not companies really engage in such reprehensible hiring practices, you need look no further than the employment section of your local paper. See the tiny, unappealing buzzword-laden ads for experienced coders, paying a third the going rate in your area? Those companies will not get responses from anyone but interns. They can then claim they couldn't find anyone to take the job despite "honestly" trying, and can then hire H1Bs.

Regardless of your opinion of outsourced labor, I don't think anyone would consider such transparent tactics as anything but a legal farce.



wouldn't there be some other parties chiming in on the issue?

While IT people may have extremely well-organized personal lives (social and desktop notwithstanding), we don't tend to organize into larger bodies. The "I" in "INTP/INTJ" doesn't stand for "I likes large crowds".

Re:Some more info

[Tablizer]

but if the H-1B situation was really as cut and dried...

Often it is not. There are many wiggly loopholes. Examples from my old blog:

# Resume Templating - Add every skill that a given H-1B candidate has on his/her resume into the "needed skills" line of the application form. That way the "needs" profile will never match a citizen above the probability of winning the Instant Millionaire lottery. Government inspectors are usually too overworked and/or not knowledgeable enough to check and follow-up on actual skills used on the job, especially if there are more than a few. (This approach was also covered in another message.)

# Undocumented Experience - Claim a highly experienced H-1B applicant is really only a beginner, and thus a company gets experience at beginner rates. Inspectors cannot realistically check somebody's skill background as obtained inside a foreign country. If they do find out, claim you didn't know. Just make sure the experience is not on your "official" copy of the visa worker's resume. It is an easy lie to get away with.

# Take Advantage of Situation - Work the H-1B overtime or weekends without extra pay. Complaining risks getting the H-1B sent home, so they usually keep quiet. Plus, they may not understand how our legal system works or be intimidated by a process foreign to them. (US money is worth more to them due to exchange rates when they eventually go back home, and thus they often just live with labor abuses without complaint in order reduce risk while obtaining their financial nest-egg.)

# Tinker with Titles - Information technology (IT) titles are often vague, inconsistent, and overlapping. It is hard to penalize a company for using the wrong IT title on an application form because there practically is no such thing as an objectively "wrong title" in IT. Plus, most IT work involves a mixture of a lot of different skills, such as programming, analysis, debugging, customer support, documentation, etc. There are no consensus metrics for categorizing these based on ratios or percentage of usage.

# Outsource the Buck - A big company can contract the H-1B from a small, fly-by-night company that keeps a portion of an H-1B's pay, delays paychecks, does not pay overtime, etc. The big company that contracts out is then not exposed to the risk of dubious activity. They can claim that they did not know the contractor was abusing the visa workers (and may not know). Such small contracting companies are often staffed by people from the H-1B's originating country such that if they are caught or risk being caught, the company folds up and goes back to their home country where they can do other business. The risk of real penalties is very small. (Cross-country white-collar crime investigation tends to be poorly coordinated between countries involved.)

# Shred Citizen Resumes - Companies applying for visas are required to place an ad in a typical job listings source and review received resumes or applications for qualified citizens. Government inspectors may ask to see such resumes. However, if somebody takes citizens resume and shreds them, nobody besides the shredder will ever know they existed.

# Lopsided Interviews - Government inspectors don't sit through most live interviews. Thus, a company trying to weed out citizens can simply ask tough questions when interviewing the citizen, but be easy on the visa candidate.

Re:Some more info

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's the deal with global competetion. We can argue all day about which country produces better programmers. See the fallacy and pure BS nature of my second line. People are people, from whichever country, some will be dedicated and smart, most will be not. I don't think there can be a program by the government to produce top notch skilled computer professionals.

That being said, competing on price. That's a dead end too. Because in a lot of countries, engineers are paid what, maybe even less, than what a burger flipper would make here. I find that counter intuitive and forced. Its an inflated system which is being supported by ......(fill in your favorite conspiracy theory here, petro dollars et. al.). My point is, there will always be someone who is ready to work for less.

The fact that someone is from a country where they pay less also does not mean that these workers are "slave", unhappy labor. You can live for very cheap in some countries. I was watching Tony Bourdain on Discovery when he went to India. He was eating meals for the equivalent of about 10-20 cents. So IMO, and taking into account the true cost of living in different places, the view that cheap workers are not as productive too falls apart.

However competetion can always be carried out on value. The value that Americans (most of them in our profession anyway) are able to communicate better, they know the local scene and the customers, they know the subtelities of the American culture etc. They are better connected to the hiring managers, have the benefit of local programmer's guilds and other networking organizations.Use that.

And about the whole brou-haha (pretty sure I got that wrong) about H1B, even assuming that the system sucks from top to bottom, its only 65,000 or something like that. Heck, make that 200,000. That's like what, 1% of the technology job market. I frankly find these arguements to be political hooks by pseudo unions.

Re:Some more info

[Anonymous Coward]

Many groups are working against the H-1B visa program. The American Engineering Association, Wash Tech, Techs Unite, CWA, AFL-CIO, TORAW, etc.

The reason the Programmers Guild seems to be out in front is that they do a lot of the data collection and analysis on the H-1B program as well as the legal action.

(In contrast, Wash Tech seems to get better "dirt", such as the M$ "Find Something to Offshore Something Today!" presentation.)

I saw something the Programmers Guild's founder wrote. He said that while consulting at Dun & Bradstreet, he took time off without pay to testify before Congress about H-1B. His coworkers made ribbed him about it with comments that sound like a lot of the one's here. A few months later D&B's CIO put out a memo (available on zazona.com) announcing that everyone was going to be replaced by H-1B workers.

If programmers are going to sit on their butts until their company H-1Bees everyone, American programmers are going to go the way of garment workers.

Re:Some more info

[Fulcrum of Evil]

But it's hard when Free Traitors keep bringing in people to compete with the people already here.

Using phrases like 'free traitor' doesn't help matters. It puts you in the same bucket as the Micro$oft crowd.

Re:Some more info

[NormalVisual]

And then there's the method preferred by a previous employer of mine - have a Sri Lankan CEO that has good buddies in the Sri Lankan IT services industry, and mysteriously have people shipped in without even having posted the openings. When I started there, our department had four Americans, one Pakistani, and one Bulgarian. The Pakistani and Bulgarian both were U.S. citizens. Five years later when I left, we had four Americans (3 good people, 1 basket case), two Pakistanis (one H1-B) who were a little above average, one Indian who was largely useless (H1-B), and IIRC, 7 Sri Lankans (all H1-B, all pretty decent). I personally handed in no less than five resumes of qualified locals that I knew for two of positions that *were* advertised, and not a single one was contacted. "Qualified" meaning they had the required skills (and I could personally vouch for their competence), most of the "good to have" skills, were available, and were willing to work for industry standard wages. The "industry standard wages" part was the kicker - I found out later at least two of the Sri Lankans were working for a little more than half of what I was, when their experience and abilities warranted pay on par with mine. They had also told me that they were bound to the company by restrictive contracts that would end up costing them thousands of dollars if they left, but felt that they had to do it if they wanted to eventually get a green card.

The H1-B program is a joke. It's often not fair to the Americans that get displaced, and it's often not fair to the visa holders, who in my experience can end up in situations resembling indentured servitude. The only parties that consistently benefit from it are those unscrupulous companies who aren't willing to follow the law, since the government does next to nothing to enforce the requirements placed on employers.

Re:Some more info

[Anonymous Coward]

> # Take Advantage of Situation - Work the H-1B overtime or weekends without extra pay. Complaining risks getting the H-1B sent home, so they usually keep quiet. Plus, they may not understand how our legal system works or be intimidated by a process foreign to them. (US money is worth more to them due to exchange rates when they eventually go back home, and thus they often just live with labor abuses without complaint in order reduce risk while obtaining their financial nest-egg.)

The H-1B where I work used to be head of maintenance. Great guy, really liked him. The plant, however, hit hard times and they've busted him clear down to a maintenance tech (although he still seems to do all the things he did before, and there's *no one* here with proper qualifications to head maintenance now).

In other words, yeah, I suspect they're screwing the poor guy :/ Honestly, I hope they're required to give them good contracts when they hire them, because this is a "Right To Work State" (which, as you've probably guessed, might as well be an Orwellian term).

Re:Some more info

[Anonymous Coward]

It puts you in the same bucket as the Micro$oft crowd

WOW ! It takes a complete slashdot idiot to put Microsoft into a discussion that is remotely connected with it.

You guys are crazy...

Re:Some more info

[Anonymous Coward]

It puts you in the same bucket as the Micro$oft crowd WOW ! It takes a complete slashdot idiot to put Microsoft into a discussion that is remotely connected with it.

I think you missed the point. It wasn't really Microsoft but the dollar sign, that is so "cleverly" used by very young blind zealots and IMHO (and judging from posts I'm very far from alone on this) disqualify whatever they have to say, because it says so much about the poster.

Re:Some more info

[Anonymous Coward]

Well because Programmers/IT are a) pretty much non-union and b) the only real group be decimated by H1Bs. PG is about the only concerted voice programmers have - and let's face it, do we have much else to complain about EXCEPT the cheap H1B labor being brought in - and it's pretty serious. I've got solid clients, so I'm not to worried about it, but I saw what they do when I did contract work with biggers companies. The idea they are 'great hard workers' is a sham - I never saw one that was worth a crap. They are great CHEAP workers - that's all this is about. Period. I know of this one company ran by some naturalized India that is just rolling in the dough. He bring H1Bs over, pays them anywhere from 30% to 70% less than what regular contractors make and then undercuts other contract companies enough to ensure he gets the jobs. Tell me how this is 'ok'. The fact that companies are ASKING for H1Bs proves it's all about money - cause I'm here to tell you it's NOT because they are great coders - far from it.

But hey, stick your head in the sand. Doesn't bother me - my reputation is well established and H1Bs aren't affecting me. It's the new coders coming out of college that it's going to kill.

Re:Some more info

[Greyfox]

One should note that the H1B candidate need not complain immediately if he's being forced to work extra overtime for no pay. Once he gets his green card or is sick of the USA and ready to go home, he can sue his employer for back pay. You don't see this so often in IT, but it happens all the time in newspapers. Just carefully document all unpaid overtime and hit 'em with a big lawsuit when you're ready to make your move. You'll get an extra year or two worth of pay for whatever you have planned and your employer will learn a valuable lesson about treating you like a slave just because you happen to be from another country.

Re:Some more info

[Anonymous Coward]

There are all sorts of organizations opposing H-1b expansion. Washtech (www.washtech.org, an actual union), Alliance @ IBM (ditto), CWA, Techs Unite, IEEE USA, even Eagle Forum. And lots of others I forgot to mention. They just don't get the media preeminence accorded to Bill Gates, ITAA, and their ilk.

Re:Some more info

[Courageous]

It's actually more potent than you describe. Usually when such a lawsuit hits, the local labor board gets involved. The resolution of the lawsuit often involves back pay for all workers so impacted by overtime abuses. Such lawsuits can be real stingers for the abusing company. Too bad they are rare.

C//

Re:Some more info

[HardCase]

Might I suggest going to, say, their web site and reading the plain-English ByLaws page? In particular, "ARTICLE 3 - PURPOSE", which contains a bulleted list of, well, what they do.

Looks to me like they mostly make a stink about H1B programs, like the OP said. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

-h-

Re:Some more info

[Anonymous Coward]

>>When I started there, our department had four Americans, one Pakistani, and one Bulgarian. The Pakistani and Bulgarian both were U.S. citizens.

Nice. Its sounds like you had 6 "Americans," but i realize to a bigot like you, you had only 4 and 2 darkies. Its quite evident about the reasoning behind your complaints a55h0l3.

Re:Some more info

[Raenex]

Most IT positions are based on a yearly salary, and overtime doesn't apply. Most states aren't like California and don't require overtime.

Re:Some more info

[Anonymous Coward]

# Undocumented Experience

I disagree with this. Being an Indian about to go on H1, I should know. Many people put fake experience on their resumes. Sometimes, people who got their MS degree here, put in two years of US IT experience in lieu of that. It doesnt matter if that degree is not in CS, you can still get an IT job with your fake experience. All you need is enough BS to fool the interviewer and your buddies as reference from the place where you "worked".

An easy way to tell is if someone is @24 years old on his drivers license and has 5-8 yrs of experience on his resume. He is very likely a student who's finished his MS here but not showing it. But please do not blame that person for it.. The real culprit are the companies and recruiting agencies who want qualifications blown out of proportion

NOT just that, they also want to exploit: By sponsoring the H1 and giving him a job, the worker is at the mercy of the recruiting agency. Therefore the agency take 20$ out of his 40$ an hour wage. And 5-10$ from the agency also goes to their contact at the Company. (which could be a reason the BS in the interview works)

So yeah, I agree the H1 program is MOSTLY BS. MOST of the Indians I know on H1 here are not worth 10% of the money thats spent on them... but guess what: neither are the Americans or others. In my current job for example... hmm lets not go there...

Re:Some more info

[NDPTAL85]

You don't think the lower domestic salaries could have anything to do with the glut of people who entered the market during the dot com boom?

Re:Some more info

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

geez buddy. I have some Haitian friends. Am I a bigot because I call them Haitian? If I wasn't born here I'd probably call myself something else before American.
well all you proved is that you are the bigot I guess. lol darkies... I'm kind of glad that I don't really know what those words mean.

Re:Some more info

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

I received a call from a company called Blue Jungle http://www.bluejungle.com/ in San Mateo, CA. One of the first questions they asked was what was my VISA status. I suppose my last name isn't 'American' sounding. I was promised an interview which turned into a phone interview which then never came to be. They give me the run around after several calls and emails later. They say they will send me an email with instructions for the interview, nice trick.

Re:Some more info

[LibrePensador]

Why didn't you report this obviously illegal behavior to the Dept. of Labor? They would have protected your employment and pursued the employer.

Re:Some more info

[NormalVisual]

I think my favorite part was the AC's reference to the Bulgarian as being a "darkie", obviously not aware that said Bulgarian was in fact a reasonably hot white woman. Flouting spectacular degrees of ignorance while calling someone else racist is always fun to watch, particularly when the dumbass AC obviously hadn't read the full post before deciding to get all self-righteous on me.

Re:Some more info

[NormalVisual]

My employment was never in danger, actually. I didn't report it since others in the company had already done so with no apparent effect. Maybe the company had been fined for it - I don't know. If they were, it wasn't enough to stop the practice. The company was just bought out a few months ago, so hopefully the new owners will rectify this situation.

Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Let's see the Free Traitors try to twist their way out of this one- an obvious abuse of the program based on bigotry and the Cheap Labor movement that wants everybody to work for the least wages possible. The Destruction of the Middle Class, wholesale- this is class warfare pure and simple.

From my point of view, CEOs who support this behavior need to be tried for Treason and shot. Then maybe we would get corporate managers that feel some LOYALTY to the country they were BORN IN instead of retiring off shore on the profits stolen from offshoring and inshoring to eliminate the unions.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[heinousjay]

Yeah, nothing provides jobs like the artificial inflation of wages.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Kesch]

Then maybe we would get corporate managers that feel some LOYALTY to the country they were BORN IN

And here I thought it was the country's responsibility to be loyal to the CEO's. They do make the biggest camapign contributions after all.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Actually, this is about the free market- wages should be as high as the skills are rare. You shouldn't be allowed to cheat by going elsewhere. Supply and demand baby. Nothing artificial about it- and if you want to whine about high wages, why not outsource the CEOs instead? After all, who do you think has the inflated salary, the guy making $48,000 a year or the guy making $480 million a year?

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Marxist Hacker 42]

And here I thought it was the country's responsibility to be loyal to the CEO's. They do make the biggest camapign contributions after all.

Loyalty is a two way street- a politician may be bought and paid for, but even he can't stop a bullet if you sabatoge the job market. These pirates masquarading as Americans these days on Wall Street don't seem to have the first clue about where their money comes from.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[teutonic_leech]

Your argument is specious - what's currently happening is 'artificial deflation of wages' and a lowering of the standard of living. Talk to your [non-CEO] working-class friends - they'll tell you their version of the 'gouging of the American work force'. At the same time cost go up all over the place... Wait, I know what your argument is going to be now: why don't we just go and invest in re-education? - LOL

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[CRCulver]

Then maybe we would get corporate managers that feel some LOYALTY to the country they were BORN IN...

You can yourself a Marxist? Marxism is internationalist, and in it one's loyality is to the international working class and not to one's own nation-state.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[heinousjay]

No, I don't argue in any way against raising the wages in other countries. That's the natural consequence of globalization - everything reaches equilibrium. The investments that US companies make into (relatively) high-paying jobs in, for example, India, spread more money around that economy. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Protectionism, on the other hand, is a short term solution that helps no one but the people at the top. To believe otherwise is to go against all of human history.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[heinousjay]

How is going elsewhere cheating? Claiming 'supply and demand' as a description of an artificial scarcity is intellectually dishonest.

Sure, there are overpaid CEOs out there, but that fact has no bearing on the wages paid to programmers. We may as well bring the wages paid to assembly line workers into the mix. You claimed class warfare was being committed, and you're right, but it's you that's declaring it.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Anonymous Coward]

A rising tide lifts all boats

This is a mockery towards all tsunami victims! I demand an official apology from your country or we will mobilize our blood-thirsty army (Abu, Ali and Jeff).

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[FooAtWFU]

You need to retake Econ 150. That's not the "free market". This is the free market: everyone should be allowed to "cheat" by going anywhere -- except it's not cheating.

If a company can spend less to hire someone from India / Mexico / wherever, why on earth should we stop them? Why should they be forced to pay more money to hire someone from the US? This is utterly against the spirit of the free market.

In a completely free market, eventually wages for everybody doing a particular sort of job would end up about the same: as companies send work where it's cheapest, the local economy grows and thrives and the wages there will rise. Now, many things conspire to make markets non-free: sometimes things as simple and nigh unto insurmountable as Geography, sometimes things as ugly as petty politics.

Argue if you want that a free market is evil/bad/wrong. But recognize that any sort of visas and such are barriers to entry, and what you describe ("wages should be high because the skills are rare") is diametrically opposed to that: you are artificially limiting the supply by political machinations, almost exactly in the same way a monopolist can limit the supply of the product they can sell, in order to drive the price up so they can make the most profit.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Marxist Hacker 42]

How is going elsewhere cheating?

It's increasing the supply without paying for it.

Claiming 'supply and demand' as a description of an artificial scarcity is intellectually dishonest.

Nothing artificial about this scarcity- historically corporations have always had to pay for training to get the skillsets they want. The fact that Americans aren't trained in the skillsets they want just shows that the corporations are no longer paying for the training.

Sure, there are overpaid CEOs out there,

I've never heard of one that wasn't. Well, that's not quite true- Les Schwab wasn't. But he actually understood that he had to train people in the skills he wanted- which is why he owns over 500 tire stores now and has to build 6 new ones a year to handle the promotions of highly skilled people.

but that fact has no bearing on the wages paid to programmers.

Bull- where do you think they get the extra money to pay themselves big? By cutting the wages of everybody else.

We may as well bring the wages paid to assembly line workers into the mix.

Absolutely, if there were any left. Face it, we ignored the problem while they all lost their jobs, now it's our turn.

You claimed class warfare was being committed, and you're right, but it's you that's declaring it.

I'm not the one laying people off to pay myself a larger salary.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Marxist Hacker 42]

You need to retake Econ 150. That's not the "free market". This is the free market: everyone should be allowed to "cheat" by going anywhere -- except it's not cheating.

Depends on what you think the purpose of participating in an economy instead of just stealing from your neighbors is.

If a company can spend less to hire someone from India / Mexico / wherever, why on earth should we stop them?

Because economics has become warfare- and unless you want to be forced to worship Krishna, there's a reason why we have national sovereignity.

Why should they be forced to pay more money to hire someone from the US?

If they don't want to fine- exile them, take their assets, and let them go live in the third world. There's no need to accept them as citizens in that case.

This is utterly against the spirit of the free market.

Fine with me. If the free market is that you stab your neighbors in the back to earn more money, then I have no use for it at all.

In a completely free market, eventually wages for everybody doing a particular sort of job would end up about the same: as companies send work where it's cheapest, the local economy grows and thrives and the wages there will rise.

And as soon as wages rise, the companies will move elsewhere, the artificial bubble will burst, and the country will be in worse poverty than when they started. That's what is happening here in the United States anyway.

Now, many things conspire to make markets non-free: sometimes things as simple and nigh unto insurmountable as Geography, sometimes things as ugly as petty politics.

And I say these things SHOULD- markets never did any good for anybody.

Argue if you want that a free market is evil/bad/wrong. But recognize that any sort of visas and such are barriers to entry, and what you describe ("wages should be high because the skills are rare") is diametrically opposed to that: you are artificially limiting the supply by political machinations, almost exactly in the same way a monopolist can limit the supply of the product they can sell, in order to drive the price up so they can make the most profit.

As well they should. That's how you build a local economy- by fiercely keeping out foreign competition.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Marxist Hacker 42]

No, I don't argue in any way against raising the wages in other countries. That's the natural consequence of globalization - everything reaches equilibrium.

But that's not the case so far with globalization- so far everybody's poorer- and the equilibrium we're headed for is the $.33/day wages.

The investments that US companies make into (relatively) high-paying jobs in, for example, India, spread more money around that economy. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Except for it's not. India has more poor people than ever instead- and the farmers are committing suicide because they can't compete with the cheap subsidized to below cost of raising it food we're sending there.

Protectionism, on the other hand, is a short term solution that helps no one but the people at the top. To believe otherwise is to go against all of human history.

Take a good look at human history before protectionism- it was feudalism. A very small minority were rich, and most were poor. That's what no protectionism will get you.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Retric]

If the US wants to open the doors to everyone of any skill set immigrating to the US that's one thing. But H1B's are basically a direct attack on specific segments of highly skill labor. I would be more than happy to let 5 million people a year enter the US as long as they are representative of the entire spectrum of economic life. However, when H1B's drive down programmer wages but doctors and lawyers are basicly left alone there is a problem.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[cryfreedomlove]

Tell us about the CEO who makes $480 million per year. I'm sure you not put that in your post if it was not true. Tell us who it is.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Actually, I'm more of a distributist- one of the first things I noticed hacking Marxism is the problem of centralization. I'm for DECENTRALIZATION. Inidividual neighborhoods should be able to declare war on each other and set tarriffs and sales taxes that don't apply to local businesses. Tribalism is what we evolved to be!

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Actually, most of them make a good deal more than that- when you include the bribes and stock options. Want one example? Warren Buffet.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[cryfreedomlove]

Warren Buffet takes bribes? Really? Do you have any proof?

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Eli Gottlieb]

No, I don't argue in any way against raising the wages in other countries. That's the natural consequence of globalization - everything reaches equilibrium. The investments that US companies make into (relatively) high-paying jobs in, for example, India, spread more money around that economy. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Unfortunately, we can't afford the 20-100 year indefinite timespan necessary for globalization to actually bring about equilibrium. After all, you can count yourself sure that the corporations which hire Indian workers and H-1B workers don't want a free market any more than labor does: they just want cheap labor to make very cheap products they can sell for high prices. Ideologues like you are the only ones who actually want free markets - most people actually participating in the market don't.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[plasmacutter]

You do realize that before labor unions and labor/consumer protection laws guilded age robber barrons had pushed the median (not just mean.. but MEDIAN) wages down below $9000 a year in today's dollars

this "artificial inflation of wages" concept is nothing but the same baseless excuse lassez faire elitists use to wage war on the middle class.

If youre so much for the free market why don't we apply those same principles to corporations. The concept of "limited liability" artificially inflates investment.. why not get rid of this impediment to the free market and make corporate owners and investors liable for the legal and moral transgressions of the company as a whole?

don't like that do you? well dont be a hyppocrite and attack the worker side of the economy the same way.. corporations already have regulations in place which are protectionist and artificially inflate their investment capital and market power. The workers deserve something to balance this equation or we end up a third world nation with no middle class.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[heinousjay]

It's increasing the supply without paying for it.

I'd like to think of a reasonable reply to this one, but it's an emotionally charged lie. They pay for it, just not what you feel they should pay. Since the US isn't a centrally planned economy, your way doesn't work.

Nothing artificial about this scarcity- historically corporations have always had to pay for training to get the skillsets they want. The fact that Americans aren't trained in the skillsets they want just shows that the corporations are no longer paying for the training.

You're only responding to one word in my statement, and you've taken the sentence out of context. You posted about artificially restricting the supply of programmers by closing off the borders to restrict the source, then you called it supply and demand. There's no way for me to reply reasonably to such a logical misstep.

I've never heard of one that wasn't. Well, that's not quite true- Les Schwab wasn't. But he actually understood that he had to train people in the skills he wanted- which is why he owns over 500 tire stores now and has to build 6 new ones a year to handle the promotions of highly skilled people.

Rather than reply directly, I'll simply note you object to capitalism, since you apparently would like to place all competition on a level playing field of ignorance and force companies to grow all the skills they need. That's not how a free market economy works at all.

Bull- where do you think they get the extra money to pay themselves big? By cutting the wages of everybody else.

I don't consider it 'extra' money, and I don't consider wages a right. We have a deep philosophical difference on this point. I am committed to the concept of the free market. Occasionally, this leads to someone in a position of power taking advantage of the situation. Such is human nature. This doesn't lead me to tar my brush and paint the whole canvas the same color, because that's not the reality of the situation. CEOs, by and large, do an incredibly difficult job, and they are rewarded for it.

Absolutely, if there were any left. Face it, we ignored the problem while they all lost their jobs, now it's our turn.

There are plenty left, they just aren't being paid outrageous wages for jobs any monkey can do well. Programming isn't assembly line work. It won't be for some time, but when it is, it won't command the wages it does now. Such is the price of a dynamic economy. You and I have taken different tacks on this point - you choose to huddle into a shell and complain, and I choose to adapt. Time will show who wins this one.

I'm not the one laying people off to pay myself a larger salary.

That's another emotionally charged statement, but this time it's only a half-truth instead of an outright lie. It ignores all the business realities that go into such decisions. In a free market, it's not a company's responsibility to fade into obselescence while it protects a uselessly redundant or outmoded workforce.

Perhaps some day, you'll get the economy you desire. I sincerely hope not.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[colinrichardday]

Gee, what about H1B CEOs?

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[heinousjay]

Unfortunately, we can't afford the 20-100 year indefinite timespan necessary for globalization to actually bring about equilibrium. After all, you can count yourself sure that the corporations which hire Indian workers and H-1B workers don't want a free market any more than labor does: they just want cheap labor to make very cheap products they can sell for high prices. Ideologues like you are the only ones who actually want free markets - most people actually participating in the market don't.

20-100 years isn't indefinite, and it's also a statement without any factual backing whatsoever.

I didn't say everyone wanted a free market, I just said that's what it is. Naturally, business owners want as much for their dollar as they can get. Naturally, workers want as many dollars for their time as they can get. The middle ground is what constitutes the mechanisms of the market. Tipping it one way or the other serves no one in the end, so 'idealogues' like me keep things rolling the way they are for everyone.

Also, your claim of 'most people' not wanting a free market is once again unbacked.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[FooAtWFU]

Because economics has become warfare- and unless you want to be forced to worship Krishna, there's a reason why we have national sovereignity.

Wow. This, sir, is truly a most unusual juxtaposition of viewpoints. I'll go so far as to say it's perhaps the most unusual one I've ever seen.

But let me say this. My dad is an award-winning economist (Jonathan Hughes Prize, actually) and he's a good man, and I've taken an introductory class myself, though it's been a while. Still, I know a few things. Economics is a science. It has laws. True, they are not as solid as the Laws Of Physics, but they're just as true. And the truth is that free markets, by and large, make peoples' lives better, not worse. Your rhetoric about how "markets never did any good for anybody" is extremism of the most ridiculous and absurd variety. What did help people then? Sustanance farming? People don't trade in a market , whether they're trading corn or computers or labor or lemons, unless both parties gain something. You may groan about your soul-sucking job, but the fact is that you'd be far worse off without it.

My father has argued that free trade is a fundamental human right: If someone in Cuba has something to sell me, and I want to buy it, what business has anyone stopping us? Anything else is simply coercing us. You argue "protectionism!" to build a strong local economy. Why must it be local? Are the people overseas less deserving of jobs, and the progress of the modern world? Ah, I am sure you will argue about "what progress?" and tell us of how they are so terribly exploited and make only sixty cents a day in a factory - but you have missed the alternative, that they were making the equivalent of thirty cents a day doing sustainence farming beforehand. Ah, you will say, but the companies, the evil companies of course, they are going to pass all the savings along to the CEOs, those rich evil bastards. In a truly free market, though, another company will gladly spring up doing the exact same thing, but NOT pay the CEOs a bunch of money, until the other company goes out of business (or changes).

Markets are not there to make your life better. They are there to make everybody's lives better. If it comes down to it, assuming you still have Free Will, you can always choose to exclude yourself - if you're willing to pay the price. But then- maybe the price is too high, maybe the government demands taxes or such beyond your ability to pay. But that's outside of the market. That's government.

Moreover, economics - many think it's the study of money. It's not. It's the study of choices. That's all a market is- a set of choices. People associate Economics with Money because Money is the easiest sort of choice to quantify, the easiest to measure, the easiest to analyze. Recognize that to economists, everything is a market unless it's coersion. You're not in favor of coersion for every little thing, are you? If you think people should have any sort of choice in anything they do, you are supporting a market. And I hope you're not aiming for totalitariansim in your politics, especially not intentionally. I'd like to think better of you than that.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[heinousjay]

Apparently you don't know much about Warren Buffet. He owns companies. He doesn't run them.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[heinousjay]

If you're going to attack me with emotional rhetoric, at least attack me or my beliefs. Setting up strawmen isn't a sign of masterful debate.

I don't attack the worker side, because I'm part of it. I simply understand how both sides work, so I know how to play my role to its maximum advantage. I don't make CEO salaries, but I don't have CEO responsibilities. Someday, I may. Then your attack will be sensible.

Also, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that anyone can become the owner of a company. It's not an elite club with massive barriers - it's open to all and sundry who are willing to take the risks. That's not to say it's not a shark tank, because it is fiercely competitive. That's the nature of the willing. Asking everyone to play nice so you can get what you feel you're owed goes against human nature and current economic reality.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[plasmacutter]

Don't baselessly slap the "rhetoric" label on my argument.

I quoted true figures and pointed out the truth.. (also see any records from the union busting sweat shop ridden political machine dominated US guilded age) Just because I make the argument strongly does not mean it is "emotional rhetoric".. it means it is true and authoritative.

Also, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that anyone can become the owner of a company. It's not an elite club with massive barriers - it's open to all and sundry who are willing to take the risks. That's not to say it's not a shark tank, because it is fiercely competitive.

not true at all.. every major sector of the market is a guantlet of "massive barriers". There are legislative and regulatory barriers (local franchising with telcos/isps, DMCA with media standards used to keep out FOSS and potentially less restrictive competitors), every major company also erects barriers through massive patent portfolios they will not hesitate to unleash against any competitor simply to drive them out of business defending against false infringement claims. I could do weeks of research and make a several hundred meg zip file of all the entry barriers.. but i think anyone from any industry could blow a hole right through it on any industry you name (save for raw food commodities).

Asking everyone to play nice so you can get what you feel you're owed goes against human nature and current economic reality.

that's what the corporations get though.. they get limited liability.. how much more "playing nice" can you get.. the general populace no longer has the right to hold individuals accountable for their immoral and many times illegal decisions so long as its under the company name.

Labor in the mean time gets nothing but less wages for longer hours.. I did a study on this and found that for the past 25 years overdraft rates have been skyrocketing exponentially (and yes they were fully adjusted for inflation). I only wish I had data going back further, but it's very clear that people's real disposable income is falling rapidly while the rich continue to get exponentially richer. So yes.. we do need "play nice" regulation against human nature.. the human nature of greed, power mongering, and moral hazard.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[cryfreedomlove]

Why won't you answer my question? Shall I assume that you concede a total rhetorical victory to me?

Do you have proof that Warren Buffet takes bribes? Who bribed him? What did Mr Buffet do in return for that bribe?

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[ronfar]

I'm for 100% open borders.

We don't have open borders.

Our closed border is the two-by-four used to wallop the H1-B guy who takes the American job for crummier working conditions (lower wages can fall into that set, but really, it might mean the same salary for much longer hours. More than one way to skin a cat.)

If we need more workers, increase naturalization quotas for countries we want to bring workers in from. Simple, not complex like our bizarre, byzantine alphabet soup immigration laws.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I'd like to think of a reasonable reply to this one, but it's an emotionally charged lie. They pay for it, just not what you feel they should pay.

If they want to be a citizen of the United States and sell to US citizens, they should pay for what it takes to train an American for the job. If they don't want to be a citizen and don't want to sell in the United States, it's fine with me. They can leave. Permanently. With no assets and no hope of return without being shot.

Since the US isn't a centrally planned economy, your way doesn't work.

Who cares about centrally planned or not? I'm talking about defending the soverignity of our country against traitors.

You're only responding to one word in my statement, and you've taken the sentence out of context. You posted about artificially restricting the supply of programmers by closing off the borders to restrict the source, then you called it supply and demand. There's no way for me to reply reasonably to such a logical misstep.

We're in economic warfare. This is no time for logic- this is time for action.

Rather than reply directly, I'll simply note you object to capitalism, since you apparently would like to place all competition on a level playing field of ignorance and force companies to grow all the skills they need. That's not how a free market economy works at all.

Then I have no use for a free market economy, since it has no use for me.

I don't consider it 'extra' money, and I don't consider wages a right.

Then you're pro-slavery.

We have a deep philosophical difference on this point. I am committed to the concept of the free market.

Oh, so you're a brainwashed fool of a slave.

Occasionally, this leads to someone in a position of power taking advantage of the situation.

No, it always does. That's what you get for no regulation- feudalism.

Such is human nature. This doesn't lead me to tar my brush and paint the whole canvas the same color, because that's not the reality of the situation. CEOs, by and large, do an incredibly difficult job, and they are rewarded for it.

Yeah, it's incredibly hard going to five-martini "business lunches" and playing golf.

There are plenty left, they just aren't being paid outrageous wages for jobs any monkey can do well.

If $.33/hr is outrageous to you, just move your factory to Africa, right?

Programming isn't assembly line work. It won't be for some time, but when it is, it won't command the wages it does now. Such is the price of a dynamic economy.

In that case, I have no use for a "dynamic economy" either.

You and I have taken different tacks on this point - you choose to huddle into a shell and complain, and I choose to adapt. Time will show who wins this one.

Actually, no, I choose to return to real anything-goes capitalism- where we can kill those who offend us.

That's another emotionally charged statement, but this time it's only a half-truth instead of an outright lie. It ignores all the business realities that go into such decisions. In a free market, it's not a company's responsibility to fade into obselescence while it protects a uselessly redundant or outmoded workforce.

It once was- back when we truly had a free market instead of a free for all- but now, I say such companies deserve death. They no longer serve their society, so why should they be allowed to survive?

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[plasmacutter]

I didn't say everyone wanted a free market, I just said that's what it is. Naturally, business owners want as much for their dollar as they can get. Naturally, workers want as many dollars for their time as they can get. The middle ground is what constitutes the mechanisms of the market. Tipping it one way or the other serves no one in the end, so 'idealogues' like me keep things rolling the way they are for everyone.

idealogue is right.. its exactly what you are.

There is no "middle ground" .. corporations have limited liability allowing them to collect and centralize tremendous assets and market power, meanwhile they manipulate laws and cry out to "keep the markets free" to prevent the labor side of the equation from centralizing power in the same way through unions and collective bargaining. so no.. the market was left to itself in the guilded age and youve seen from my other post that it pushed the median income below $9000 a year in todays dollars before violent labor riots finally prompted the government to act out of fear of losing their power entirely.

you obviously want that again, you seem to have a tremendous hatred for the middle class.

As a graduating economist I am incensed by your use of fallacy to support this argument you make. Either you have not progressed beyond intermediate level classes with simplistic models or you have been brainwashed by conservative media mouthpieces, or both.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Wow. This, sir, is truly a most unusual juxtaposition of viewpoints. I'll go so far as to say it's perhaps the most unusual one I've ever seen.

It's a very common one among those who have studied what happened in the Pacific Northwest between 1830-1833.

But let me say this. My dad is an award-winning economist (Jonathan Hughes Prize, actually) and he's a good man, and I've taken an introductory class myself, though it's been a while. Still, I know a few things. Economics is a science. It has laws. True, they are not as solid as the Laws Of Physics, but they're just as true.

Then why have they been failing for 40 years? Why did they fail the Kalapayu 170 years ago?

And the truth is that free markets, by and large, make peoples' lives better, not worse.

Tell that to the Kalapayu, if you can find any. Oh yeah- most of them died off because their economic competitors brought Malaria to Oregon.

Your rhetoric about how "markets never did any good for anybody" is extremism of the most ridiculous and absurd variety. What did help people then? Sustanance farming?

It's at least more honest than the con game of making money off of charging people usury.

People don't trade in a market , whether they're trading corn or computers or labor or lemons, unless both parties gain something.

Then why has the US trade balance been negative for the past 30 years? Yes, some people gain something- a small minority.

You may groan about your soul-sucking job, but the fact is that you'd be far worse off without it.

My people had the Salmon, the Hazelnut, the Wild Sunflower, Wapato and Camas, long before your "free market" ever existed. We should have protected it better. Now, we just have slavery.

My father has argued that free trade is a fundamental human right:

Then your father is a traitor to his nation and his family.

If someone in Cuba has something to sell me, and I want to buy it, what business has anyone stopping us?

And when that throws your neighbor out of work and he kills you for food, are you going to accept that consequence as well?

Anything else is simply coercing us

Traitors deserve to be coerced. If you don't like it you should move to Cuba.

You argue "protectionism!" to build a strong local economy. Why must it be local?

Because any economy where you can't kill the person who cheats you is evil.

Are the people overseas less deserving of jobs, and the progress of the modern world?

Let them invent their own technology, create their own progress, just as we did.

Ah, I am sure you will argue about "what progress?"

Well, let's see- work 32 hours hunting and gathering vs 40-60 hours in a factory- which is more free?

and tell us of how they are so terribly exploited and make only sixty cents a day in a factory - but you have missed the alternative, that they were making the equivalent of thirty cents a day doing sustainence farming beforehand. Ah, you will say, but the companies, the evil companies of course, they are going to pass all the savings along to the CEOs, those rich evil bastards. In a truly free market, though, another company will gladly spring up doing the exact same thing, but NOT pay the CEOs a bunch of money, until the other company goes out of business (or changes).

Money means nothing if you're homeless and can't eat. And you're wrong- because once money starts accumulating, money will use the power of government to take away more freedom.

Markets are not there to make your life better.

That's the first thing I agree with- and because they're not, I have little to no use for them.

They are there to make everybody's lives better

But they're not, are they? As long as there is one loser who gets cheated, not everybody's life is getting better.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[SD_92104]

I would be more than happy to let 5 million people a year enter the US as long as they are representative of the entire spectrum of economic life.

This program is already available and called Diversity Green Card Lottery - only 55,000 per year though

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Marxist Hacker 42]

How do you think he "earned" that much money? It's only by taking bribes to do what the powers that be want him to that any one man can earn money like that.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[dal20402]

In a truly free market, though, another company will gladly spring up doing the exact same thing, but NOT pay the CEOs a bunch of money, until the other company goes out of business (or changes).

...

Recognize that to economists, everything is a market unless it's coersion.

Unlike Marxist Hacker 42, who I don't think will be comfortable until there's blood in the streets, I'm not going to tell you I have no use for a free market. In fact, my goal would be for as many people as possible to make any rational trades they want, which is probably the outcome you're thinking of when you say "free market."

But you don't get there by removing all the rules. That Econ class should have taught you that all that happens when you remove all the rules is that people take advantage of disparities in bargaining power and information to coerce or fool other parties into non-rational transactions.

The CEO case is a perfect example. The CEOs hornswoggle or pay off the directors, who in turn do the same to the shareholders. Shareholders and employees are left holding the bag. Since there is no incentive for CEOs not to do this, as they profit much more handsomely than they could from simply doing good business, there is no incentive for a CEO to lead your "another company" into the picture.

Thus active public intervention is required to ensure a market where all parties who bargain and inform themselves to the best of their ability realize positive outcomes. The great failing of many people inclined toward a viewpoint informed by classical economics is that they fail to realize this -- effectively embracing a course which inevitably leads to feudalism, not free markets. In this specific situation, the public intervention needed is simply enforced regulation: if Americans won't take your job because you're offering a low salary at which they turn up their noses, that's fine, but actively excluding Americans in order to take advantage of the H-1Bs should be (and is) outlawed.

This is a case where the existing law makes sense and should be enforced, for the sake of a fair and free market.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[MadHatter2005]

I wish I had mod points. I was going to reply to the parent but you got the point across in a concise fashion. Well done.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Anonymous Coward]

It's at least more honest than the con game of making money off of charging people usury.

WTF does this have to do with anything? It's a choice. If you don't like someone lending you money for interest, don't borrow it.

Because any economy where you can't kill the person who cheats you is evil.

Your post has cheated me out of five minutes of my life. Should I kill you now? Go fuck yourself.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Want one example? Warren Buffet.

He makes 100k/year. He's richer than croesus because he owns a large stake in Berkshire Hathaway. Rule 1 of CEO ethics: if you started the company, you deserve whatever you can get.

Want a real example? Jack Welch. Of course, he's one of the rare ones that is worth what he's paid and more.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Fulcrum of Evil]

It's only by taking bribes to do what the powers that be want him to

Bitch, are you retarded?

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Anonymous Coward]

My father has argued that free trade is a fundamental human right: If someone in Cuba has something to sell me, and I want to buy it, what business has anyone stopping us? Anything else is simply coercing us. You argue "protectionism!" to build a strong local economy. Why must it be local? Are the people overseas less deserving of jobs, and the progress of the modern world?

First, if the "something" that the person in Cuba has to sell me is his daughter, and I want to buy his daughter, what business has anyone stopping us?

Oh, if selling people is wrong, then you mean there are some things more important than strict and absolute adherence to the religious precipts of "free trade"?

And as for why the economy that is strenghened must be local... you ask if people overseas are less deserving of jobs and progress. YES. They ARE less deserving of OUR efforts to increase OUR prosperity. I care nothing for the people on the other side of the planet, just as they care nothing for me. If everyone in Asia and Africa died on the instant, I would laugh with pleasure, just as everyone in Asia and Africa would crow with delight were all us "white devils" to vanish from the Earth. I want my LOCAL efforts to benefit my LOCAL community. If the rest of the world can make all their citizens live in pleasure domes beyond my wildest dreams, that's fine I don't care. If the rest of the world crawls in the dirt and dies screaming, that's fine I don't care.

Yes, you now have a large selection of supposedly bad words to label me with. So? Label me as you wish, I am still here and still hold my views, regardless of your labels.

And stop all the bleating about "human rights". They don't exist. We made them up. Dissect a human and you will find no "rights" hiding in the appendix or leaking out the spleen. The concept of "human rights" is best regarded as a game rule of the democracy game -- a game that is not played everywhere on the globe.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[heinousjay]

I was referring to your last paragraph, where you leveled your emotionally charged ad hominem attack.

I quoted true figures and pointed out the truth.. (also see any records from the union busting sweat shop ridden political machine dominated US guilded age) Just because I make the argument strongly does not mean it is "emotional rhetoric".. it means it is true and authoritative.

You quoted figures with no citation and pointed out your opinions regarding their meaning. Emotionally charging your arguments is no measure of authority.

I have no desire to engage in personal arguments over economic philosophy.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[heinousjay]

I give no credence to your education if the best arguments you can make based on it are filled with personal attacks. You obviously have no idea how to make a point (or possibly have no logical point to make) so I have no interest in dealing with you.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[cryfreedomlove]

What were the powers that be bribing him to do?

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[NormalVisual]

I've been reading a lot of your comments, and you often have stuff of value to say. However, I think pulling Warren Buffett into the mix is really stretching things. Buffett is first and foremost an investor, and unlike a lot of the folks that are playing with stocks today, he's generally a long term investor who is *extremely* careful about where he puts his money and isn't interested in flipping stocks for the quick buck. He's earned the fortune he has by sound investing, and by making sure competent people are running his companies. He makes $100K per year as the chairman of Berkshire Hathaway, lives in a very unpretentious home, and generally is the antithesis of the over-the-top CEOs we've seen in recent years.

The ridiculously large CEO pay that you quoted is also fairly uncommon. The only two really big paydays that immediately come to mind are the $400 million package that Lee Raymond received when he left Exxon, and Michael Eisner's $576 million that he made largely through exercised stock options in 1998. Both were very unusual, and aren't really representative of average CEO pay at large companies. Even Carly Fiorina's $42 million severance package she got after she was done screwing HP raised a lot of eyebrows. She's still pretty hot, though. :-) I don't count the $366 million that Bernie Ebbers got in improper loans from MCI, because Ebbers is a worthless criminal who will hopefully be spending a lot of time in jail for his efforts.

Like I said, I often think you have stuff to say that's worth reading, but it hurts your arguments when you start slinging stuff like that around.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Anonymous Coward]

If a company can spend less to hire someone from India / Mexico / wherever, why on earth should we stop them? Why should they be forced to pay more money to hire someone from the US? This is utterly against the spirit of the free market.

Um, why did you think we were discussing a free market?

To give one example, India commits massive intellectual property violations against US drug companies by making generic versions of drugs that are still under patent. These medicines are for sale cheap in India. Americans have to pay the patented price.

I'll quit complaining about the H1B programmers when I can buy Hong Kong DVD copyright-free copies for $2 at Walmart instead of having to pay $20 for the latest Hollywood dreck. Free markets cut both ways, you know.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[plasmacutter]

I have no desire to engage in personal arguments over economic philosophy.

try my experience with a top 20 university education in economics.

And youre damn right i'd be pissed with someone bandying about fallacious BS in an attempt to exhonorate a greedy upperclass who are actively engineering the pillaging of those in the lower 95% of the income spectrum.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[milliwatt]

> If a company can spend less to hire someone from India / Mexico / wherever, why on earth
> should we stop them? Why should they be forced to pay more money to hire someone from the
> US? This is utterly against the spirit of the free market.

The point you seem to be missing is that it's a *U.S.* company we're talking about here. They owe their success to the infrastructure upon which their business is based. It's our (all us citizens) tax money that pays for everything that enables their business to operate (roads, public works, and so on).

They can't have their cake and eat it too.

Now, the real trouble begins when we start talking about multi-nationals...

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[plasmacutter]

I give no credence to your education if the best arguments you can make based on it are filled with personal attacks.

telling the truth a personal attack? i called you an idealogue and that is precisely what you are.. that is directed at your opinions rather than you.. hence why i called you an idealogue rather than "doo doo head".

As for the rest of my post there were no personal attacks.. I suppose by your definition of "filled" the waiter can bring you a longneck with 1mm of beer at the bottom and you would consider it full?

You obviously have no idea how to make a point (or possibly have no logical point to make) so I have no interest in dealing with you.

my arent we an authority.. who died and made you god?

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a very common one among those who have studied what happened in the Pacific Northwest between 1830-1833

I really want to see where this is going, given the fact that I live in the PNW.

Then why have they been failing for 40 years? Why did they fail the Kalapayu 170 years ago?

Interesting, what are these Kalapayu you speak of?

Tell that to the Kalapayu, if you can find any. Oh yeah- most of them died off because their economic competitors brought Malaria to Oregon.

According to Google, they never existed. I'll just assume you mean the Kalapuya. By the way, most authoritative sources describe the disease that swept through the Kalapuya from 1830 to 1833 as a fever, not as malaria. Granted there are some that say malaria, but it is far from conclusive. Oh, and don't forget the smallpox of 1782 to 1783 while you're going there.

My people had the Salmon, the Hazelnut, the Wild Sunflower, Wapato and Camas, long before your "free market" ever existed. We should have protected it better. Now, we just have slavery.

If you're claiming to be one of the Kalapuya, you'd think you could spell it correctly. You've managed to screw it up twice. Now, I could see there being variances in spelling, but you'd think Google would have heard about your spelling.

Let them invent their own technology, create their own progress, just as we did.

Interesting. Now, maybe I'm misinterpreting your implications, but here goes: Above you are complaining that my people came and killed most of your people off. So who is this "we" you speak of? You didn't invent your own technology. My people brought your people the wheel, guns, and horseback riding, among other things.

Well, let's see- work 32 hours hunting and gathering vs 40-60 hours in a factory- which is more free?

Work 32 hours a week living in a hut that's too cold in the winter, too hot in the summer, buggy all year and lacks privacy, or work 40-60 hours a week and have my own insulated house, heater, air conditioning, a car, TV, etc. Gee, which one would I pick???

I'm for decentralization- no government, no money, no TRADE.

Exactly how will this lessen suffering and injustice? People die faster? What if I'm the only guy in town who knows about willow bark tea? How do you force me to give it to you? Would you expect it out of the goodness of my own heart? You still have trade, because I would expect you to supply me with what I needed out of the goodness of your heart.

There is *always* trade unless an individual can provide for everything he/she needs and never needs to ask someone else for help. If you really want to delve into it, all human relationships are an exercise in trade.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[bheer]

Oh go sod yourself and your "top 20" university education in Economics. If you really want us to be impressed, link to your Google Scholar page and your peer reviews. Then we might be impressed. But your ranting and amazing felicity for calling everyone who disagrees with you a 'republican shill' makes me doubt your credentials.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[plasmacutter]

But your ranting and amazing felicity for calling everyone who disagrees with you a 'republican shill' makes me doubt your credentials.

ranting eh?

you fall for fox news tactics too do you?

the guy accuses me of doing exactly what he does, does not offer a shred of logic in response to my arguments, and it's my credibility which is questioned.

Whatever, I don't require your approval, but I suggest you take a good long look at how you follow debate if you agree with that pseudointellectual over someone who knows something about the subject.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Alioth]

Resist the temptation to bother arguing with Marxist Hacker 42; he simply doesn't get it and never will. What he wants is no trade, not even local - but yet he still thinks the Internet can continue to exist under these conditions. Also he seems to not understand that it is human nature to trade.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Moflamby-2042]

Ah, I am sure you will argue about "what progress?" and tell us of how they are so terribly exploited and make only sixty cents a day in a factory - but you have missed the alternative, that they were making the equivalent of thirty cents a day doing sustainence farming beforehand.

To me, companies in a country that have laws providing minimal standards to block heinous working conditions should not be able to dodge these laws by seeking workers in countries without these minimal standards. This minimal shield should be provided everywhere the company is allowed to do business. And it is exploitation by the company in the country that profits from providing conditions below these minimal standards. Even if it improves the lives of those in the other country by some iota below the minimal shield. Because they certainly pay far less when they can find workers that will work for pennies for many hours under harsh conditions because such a minimal shield isn't in place for them. Surely a 'free economy' cannot be so free as to ignore minimal quality labor conditions for every worker? Outsourcing to gain profit by dodging minimal labor shielding should be illegal!

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Achromatic1978]

Amusingly, you complain about your credibility being attacked when someone suggests you actually cite publications that you refer to, and decry people questioning you when the only "source" you give is, "a top 20 university degree in economics". That's ... how can we put it, rather vague. Instead you return straight to your 'republican' attacks, or, in this case, Fox News. No wonder people are questioning your credibility.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[plasmacutter]

oh look another one caves to the troll and falls in line.. it's really pathetic.

I put forth points, he put forth no counterpoints and instead chose to attack me.. of course after accusing me of doing what he was about to do before hand so as to cast off all blame.

It has been the tactic used by the bush administration and their cronies for the past 6 years and everyone who reads slashdot knows it, but funny how anyone can slip it by you when it doesnt involve the patriot act.

I really dont care about the point I was making anymore.. the fact that two people have come forward in support of this really disappointing to me.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[beringreenbear]

"If someone in Cuba has something to sell me, and I want to buy it, what business has anyone stopping us? Anything else is simply coercing us.... the evil companies of course, they are going to pass all the savings along to the CEOs, those rich evil bastards. In a truly free market, though, another company will gladly spring up doing the exact same thing, but NOT pay the CEOs a bunch of money, until the other company goes out of business (or changes)."

Good point. On paper (and in practice) a truely free market is wickedly efficient. It drives down the cost of a good or service to the lowest price it could possibly be produced. And that, I would argue, is exactly why The Company (any company) really doesn't like the free market, even if they all pay lip-service to it. Every business wants to be a monopoly. That way they can name their prices and have the best control of their expenditures.

Add in a good dose of politics and you get, effectively, the same practice: Cartels. OPEC, SIIA... they may not do it out in the open, but businesses that compete against each other often argue together to get regulations and favors from their government. No business spends their money when they can spend someone elses (I'd argue that this is a lemma of my above point).

Back on-topic, though, H1-B visas aren't the problem. Foriegn workers aren't the problem. In fact, America needs foriegn workers. Half the successful businesses in Silicon Valley were started by immigrants. In fact, the current US foriegn policy keeps a lot of the best and brightest out, forcing them to live under oppression in their country of origin (I'm referring to the Islamic world). The problem is a system that is unfairly balanced to help The Cartel get cheap labor, rather than forcing the bits and pieces of said cartel to compete on the free market for labor. This leads to collusion (as noted in previous comments above in detail) that circumvents the protections put in place to attempt to keep the monopolistic tendencies of The Comapny in check.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Achromatic1978]

He queried your points - you chose then to ignore it, and focus on his attacks on you. The presence of an ad hominem attack (if indeed there was such) does not absolve you of a prerequisite to back up 'facts and figures' with valid references, not if you wish to appear plausible.

As for your points on Bush and the Patriot Act? Classifying me as a Republican shill or patsy is laughable for it showing off your US-centric perspective. I can't find one remark in my replies that comes close to implying I am American - in fact I live a good 9,000+ miles from the nearest US city.

I also challenge you to point out one comment of mine that 'comes forward in support of [ad hominem attacks]'. As I said above, good debating occurs neither from these attacks, nor from your pointing out of same to free you from a request to actually show sources.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[HardCase]

Let's see...

Used a made-up term for free trade - check
Proper capitalization for the Destruction of the Middle Class - check
Advocate trying CEOs for treason without knowing what treason really is - check
Put the important words in ALL CAPS - check
Twisted isolated incidents into an indictment of the entire system - check

Excellent job! Your manifesto is complete!

-h-

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[HardCase]

Warren Buffett? His annual salary is $100,000. His typical yearly compensation from Berkshire Hathaway is $300,000. He's a perennial pick for the "Most Underpaid CEO in America". Pick a different target.

-h-

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Anonymous Coward]

My dad is an award-winning economist (Jonathan Hughes Prize, actually) and he's a good man, and I've taken an introductory class myself, though it's been a while.

Then let your dad post. Why should we listen to your dad's idiot son, who has taken "an introductory course" and nurses an underlying anger towards his father because the boy is an underachiever?

And the truth is that free markets, by and large, make peoples' lives better, not worse.

That's in economic theory. In truth, there are no free markets! Your introductory course in Economics assumes a great deal in order to simplify the models. The real world is quote different from those simple models. How would I know? Well, because, first of all,

1. I paid attention in class,
   
2. I took all the courses,
   
3. I work in the real world of finance.
   

There are cracks and seams in the models of economics and what flows through would be sufficient to sink the ship were not everyone bailing furiously.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Anonymous Coward]

you are obviously a land owner with no children.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't say everyone wanted a free market, I just said that's what it is.

Then you clearly do not know the requirements for a free market. Educate yourself instead of spouting nonsense. We do not have anything approaching a free market, and your inane "it's a free market" babble when people point out the problems with the current system just makes you out to be a fool.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[bheer]

Yo, Krugman Junior, I really don't want to hear how good you are, or how bad Fox News/Bush/The Loch Ness Monster is. Just provide your credentials and a link to your Google Scholar page, and preferably some peer reviews so we laymen can get a sense of what your peers think about you. Then we can make up our own minds and be suitably impressed about your "top 20" education.

Until then, quit tooting your own horn.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[Anonymous Coward]

In a completely free market, eventually wages for everybody doing a particular sort of job would end up about the same: as companies send work where it's cheapest, the local economy grows and thrives and the wages there will rise. Now, many things conspire to make markets non-free: sometimes things as simple and nigh unto insurmountable as Geography, sometimes things as ugly as petty politics.

Are you retarded?

The population disparity alone ensures wages will never equalize in India to what it is in the United States. All your grand scheme of "equalization" will do is destroy the middle class in the United States and lower the standard of living to that of the average Indian.

If you offshore a job which pays a million dollars a year in the United States to a million people in India for $1 a day, (and have several billion people in reserve who are willing to do the same job for less than $1 a day), how do you think the million workers in India will ever earn a million dollars each? Where is the money going to come from? Keep in mind America doesn't have the population growth that India does. India's population grows by about 2.1% a year, which means it doubles every 34 years or so, vs. America's growth rate of 1.4% per year, or doubling every 51 years.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[plasmacutter]

You know.. for the past 5 months I have been replying to and debunking the posts of morons like him with full explanation.. I'm getting sick and tired of it. The fact is he does not deserve the dignity of my attention.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[easter1916]

Actually, you're more of a lunatic. Seriously, get some help.

Loving it

[teutonic_leech]

Yes, this has completely gone out of hand. Call it 'domestic outsourcing' if you will - the end result is the same: hardworking and highly skilled American engineers have a tougher time finding a job. The H2B visa was never meant as a carde blanche for companies to replace native qualified workers with cheaper immigrant workers. It's time to nip this in the butt once and for all - surely the companies greatly enjoy this situation and it won't change or even get worse if we let 'the free market decide'.

Re:Loving it

[teutonic_leech]

Sorry, I meant H-1B visas :-}

Re:Loving it

[Lord Ender]

"carde blanche?" "nip this in the butt?" Are you intentionally botching expressions to be funny, or are you new to the English language?

Perhaps you would get an edge on the H1B workers if you learned to read and write, instead of just sounding out all your spelling phonetically (based on poor hearing, at that).

No, I'm not being a grammar nazi--maybe a "completely wrong word nazi," but this is an extreme case!

Re:Loving it

[alshithead]

Try this on for size...maybe the H1B visa wasn't meant to be CARTE blanche but it certainly seems to be fitting that bill now and the companies that benefit will certainly do everything they can to buy assurances from our elected officials that the situation won't change. If you want to nip it in the BUD, then you better get working towards helping get someone elected who won't be in big business' back pocket. Maybe you could run when you learn English?

Re:Loving it

[lonesome phreak]

All hair Lord Ender! Long live our great Lord!

Re:Loving it

[maxume]

carde blanche -> carte blanche
nip this in the butt -> nip this in the bud

Anywho, idioms aside, there is a small chance that a company hiring an H1-B is able to compete in a market where hiring a native worker would be too expensive, thus increasing the overall productivity of the company without screwing an American. A small chance. Not that this likely accounts for the majority of H1-B's issued.

Re:Loving it

[irq]

"carde blanche"?

"nip this in the butt"?

How can you screw up so many colloquiums? Can you teach me?

Re:Loving it

[Anonymous Coward]

> hardworking and highly skilled American engineers have a tougher time finding a job

And what is the problem with that?

If someone can do your job cheaper than you can, then they deserve it over you. They have to eat too, you know - they're just as much a human being as you are, and they have families to feed and house just like you do. You do NOT have any intrinsic right to the job over them.

Heaven forbid you might have to actually compete with the rest of the world on a level playing field. I guess that would be too much to ask of you. Well, guess what - it's a global economy now, and either you learn to compete, or you learn to enjoy asking "paper or plastic?".

Re:Loving it

[msuarezalvarez]

And can you tell us what is it you think the word colloquium means?

Re:Loving it

[theshowmecanuck]

It would be OK if this created a level playing field, but it does not (at least not when hiring foreign IT workers to work in the U.S.). Workers who are laid off on who were on a work visa need to find another job within one month or clear out of the U.S. If they find another job, the new company they work for will need to spend the money to get the sponsorship moved to them. Put together the fact that finding a job in under a month and that many companies don't want to spend the money on the lawyers fees for the sponsorship, getting laid off usually means having to leave the country. So what's it all mean? Knowing this, many times companies hire the foreign IT workers for often times less than they would pay U.S. workers, knowing that they can treat the foreign workers like indentured servants. Work hard, lots of overtime, and for less money, or we will lay you off, and you'll have to leave the country. This can be quite a hardship... and ergo no level playing field. An American employee will no longer have an income (usually) if laid off, but they don't have to immediately uproot everything and move their home overseas.

When the government gives out the H1-B they should recognize that they are really saying 'we have a shortage of IT workers'. That should mean that it shouldn't matter what company the foreign IT worker works for. I.e. if they are given a visa it should be a 6 year work visa and the worker should be free to move from company to company and stay in the U.S. for 6 years regardless of whether they are employed or not (but they should not be eligible for welfare or unemployment). That way if company A treats them like shit, they can get another job (without sponsorship hassles) at company B who will treat them better. This would provide incentive for company A to pay more and treat the employee better. This would benefit the American workers in that there would be less incentive for company A to hire the foreign worker since they will have to provide the same or similar pay and benefits as if they had just hired an American worker. Otherwise the foreign work, like an American worker, can leave for company B. Then the only business justification the American company would have to bring someone in from overseas would be if they really were more qualified in some respect than an American worker. Of course the company is then free to possibly outsource directly to China or India, but that is another matter.

My 22 cents worth... slag away at it if you want.

Re:Loving it

[bluekanoodle]

OK, here's a serious question. When a company hires an H1-b visa holder, are they required to pay unemployment insurance on this worker? I don't know the answer, but the logical one would be no since the State would not (in my mind) end up having to pay any claims as the worker has already a) left the country or b) found another job. What about the other voluntary costs companies incur as part of retaining workers, such as Health insurance, retirement etc. It would seem to e even if a company honestly was paying an H1B the same as citizens, they could still create great cost saving in not proivding the supplemntal costs that go along with attracting and retaining workers.

Re:Loving it

[NormalVisual]

That's not supposed to happen if the company is following the rules, however. The H1 workers are supposed to be paid comparably to what domestic labor would, but I've personally seen that requirement ignored entirely.

Re:Loving it

[Profane MuthaFucka]

Be nice. You can kiss more gift horses in the mouth with honey than with vinegar. I think you're writing more checks than your body can take to the bank.

Re:Loving it

[cyber-vandal]

And maybe you shouldn't get so worked up just because someone else can't spell.

Re:Loving it

[Lord Ender]

Please... you're hurting my feelings. But thank you for that well-reasoned and informative argument.

Re:Loving it

[Anonymous Coward]

The employer will have to withhold Social Security, Medicare, SDI, etc. from the paychecks of foreign workers even though the foreign workers are not eligible for any of the benefits. That is, foreign workers pay the same amount of taxes (federal, state, and the various "other" taxes like social secrity, medicae, etc) without the same amount of benefits. It's one of those "penalties for being foreign" deal, part and parcel with the opportunity to work in the U.S.

Re:Loving it

[theshowmecanuck]

I worked for about 5 years total on TN visas in the 'States. That is a NAFTA free trade treaty and applies to Canadian and American professionals allowing them to work in America and Canada respectively. I paid unemployment insurance, social security tax and the company covered health care benefits. I had better healthcare coverage in the U.S. than I do in Canada by the way... as long as I was employed... ).

I am pretty sure the U.K. has a rule for some types of emegrants that says if you keep employed, keep your nose clean, and pay your own way, you can stay for up to five years (which may be extended... and you can apply for citizenship after around five years).

Here is one of the paragraphs from the Immigration and Nationality Directorate:

...(v) will be able to maintain and accommodate himself and any dependants adequately without recourse to public funds; and...

Re:Loving it

[arivanov]

In the UK all such taxes and Social Security contributions are payed out of a work permit holder salary regardless of the fact that the work permit holder is not entitled to any of them.

Effectively in the UK all foreign workers subsidise the native's social security budget with their contributions for 4+ years. Situation in other EU countries is not much different. The difference is only the time you are obliged to subsidise the local xenophobic skinheads who are too lazy and/or ignorant to get a permanent job so they live off state benefits instead. It is 10+ years in France, 7? (not sure) in Germany and 5+ in most other European countries.

I am not aware of all the complexities of the US tax quagmire, but I would not be surprised if it is any different. If the companies rip the off the H1B people, the state which allows it is quite likely to try to have a go at that as well. After all they are effectively a form of slaves. If they open their mouth they are chucked out of the country right away.

While for an European getting kicked out will not really matter, for most H1Bs from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc it is actually a matter of family pride. "My son has been accepted to work in theUS is a lot of kudos points for a small village or a slumland family. Being force-sent back is major strike to the family pride in some places. As a result some of these people will go to all means to stay and the fact that they are staying silent about being ripped off is not surprising.

Re:Loving it

[theshowmecanuck]

I also should mention that I did not include the fact that I paid U.S. federal and state income tax as well... but that should go without saying.

Re:Loving it

[Anonymous Coward]

You people are natural born slaves, go ahead race to the bottom.

Puppets on strings.

White Man's Burden

Re:Loving it

[torokun]

The entire concept of a "shortage of workers" is BS. Supply and demand are a sliding scale. Anyone who says there is a shortage of workers is ACTUALLY saying "I don't want to pay this guy what he's asking; I want to pay him less, so let's depress the price of labor by inflating the labor supply."

The same is true for workers. Anyone who says "I can't get a job" could either accept lower pay, or work harder.

So what does this mean? It means the question is all about supply and demand, and therefore all about how supply and demand are managed or mangled by the government (because they are going to get into it either way).

If you think programming jobs are something we should support and encourage, because there are positive externalities for the middle class, other industries, and our country in general, then we should not be depressing salaries by importing cheaper workers. If you think we don't need to maintain a strong U.S. capability in IT/CS employees, then you would simply want to get the cheapest workers possible, and decimate demand for CS education and employment among U.S. citizens.

I tend toward the former camp. I think there are MANY MANY positive externalities to almost any technical or engineering-related employment. These are the people who have the capability to, and do, later leave their jobs to start new companies and develop new ideas. Without the ability to make a decent middle-class living in the field, many smart people will do other things.

The middle class is going away in this country unless people wake up and realize why exactly it is that doctors and lawyers get paid well, while people in other highly difficult and technical work do not.

Re:Loving it

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

Damnit I'll work for what they get!! I don't care. I just need the experience since every available job requires so much of it.

I am not too expensive! give me enough for food and rent. Actually if it is in the Bay Area, I can live with my aunt and uncle for a bit. I'm groveling here damnit.

"to compete in a market where hiring a native worker would be too expensive"
"thus increasing the overall productivity of the company without screwing an American"
BULLSHIT I'm being screwed right now without a job period!

Re:Loving it

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

"The middle class is going away in this country unless people wake up and realize why exactly it is that doctors and lawyers get paid well, while people in other highly difficult and technical work do not."

I guess it's because they are good at taking advantage of other people and people in difficult and technical work generally don't want to. Just an opinion.

Re:Loving it

[0111 1110]

The same is true for workers. Anyone who says "I can't get a job" could either accept lower pay, or work harder.

Sorry, but free market theory often does not translate directly into the real world. At least in the U.S., the working world is just not set up that way. If you had ever actually tried to lowball an employer in that fashion you would see that. The system almost never allows for it. I'm not sure why. You'd have to ask someone who works in HR. I'm guessing it has something to do with the position already having a certain salary associated with it. And this is not just true in IT. I'm not aware of any field where offering a low price (salary) to an employer increases your chances of getting the job, at least in my country. Maybe if you were applying at a very small startup company and interviewing directly with the owner, lowballing would give you some advantage. Of course asking for too high a salary can hurt your chances. I hate giving salary requirements for that reason. I will either like the job or I won't. If I like it they can pay me whatever they think is fair. If I don't it doesn't matter how much they pay me. I'll walk.

Re:Loving it

[Maxwell]

bad assumption. H1-b's are transparent to payroll - all the usual gov't taxes, deductions, fees etc apply.

JON

Re:Loving it

[gspenceroracle]

Hi there, As a one time holder of an H1B, I can tell you two things about this ... 1) Yes, unemployment (and all the rest) was deducted from my check EVEN THOUGH THERE WOULD BE NO WAY FOR ME TO CLAIM IT! 2) "Taxation without Representation" I come from Canada so, for me, it was never that big of a deal (versus if I came from some kind of represive regime or something ... if I did not like it, I could always just drive home) However, this recent wave of Republican Propaganda is really pissing me off... That said, I think I'll just fade back into the lurks ... don't want to draw too much attention to myself incase the INS police are watching and I get a free trip to Cuba.

Too many laws and not enough enforcement

[maelstrom]

N/T

Re:Too many laws and not enough enforcement

[Marxist Hacker 42]

ANY enforcement would be an improvement- but the Bush Admin is against actually enforcing the law when it is inconvient.

Re:Too many laws and not enough enforcement

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right, it's all Bush's fault.

Re:Too many laws and not enough enforcement

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I don't remember anybody having a problem finding a job under Clinton.

Re:Too many laws and not enough enforcement

[dancpsu]

I'm beginning to think the X number of words max limit for laws proposed by another slashdotter is a good idea. We have way too many laws, and legislators have no real reason to get rid of any of them. I think at the very least it should be difficult to keep a law around. Something like a 2/3 majority vote on each existing law after a sunset period (2 terms?) to keep each law, and it has to be a vote for each one, one at a time.

The X words idea seems like it would accomplish the same thing, but be overturned almost as soon as it was about to become useful.

Re:Too many laws and not enough enforcement

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure this won't make an impact, but I just thought I'd inform you that you are a nutcase.

Re:Too many laws and not enough enforcement

[FlyGirl]

I don't remember anybody having a problem finding a job under Clinton

Yah... especially presidential aides

USian Terminology

[Valacosa]

Please explain for us non-Americans what H1-B is.

Re:USian Terminology

[Anonymous Coward]

Google?

Re:USian Terminology

[Marxist Hacker 42]

In America, we have different classes of Visas available for different reasons. H-1b is INTENDED to allow American companies to hire people with Master's degrees or better who have skillsets not available in America. In practice, it's used to bring in as many Bachelor's Degree holders as possible every year to drive wages down in highly skilled jobs. It's so popular that businesses actually run out of these visas within a few minutes of them becoming available every year. Current cap is 65,000 per Federal Fiscal Year- they're usually gone by 20 minutes after midnight on the first of October.

The big part is that these visas were originally sold as having *no* effect on US employment- after all, the skillsets are supposed to be completely unavailable in the United States, and no way to train anybody in that skillset. In practice though- well, you see some of the quotes from advertising for these jobs.

Re:USian Terminology

[fimbulvetr]

Although I shouldn't extend you the courtesy after you've used "USian", there is a fine link here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B

It's essentially a visa permitting medium term residency in the United States. Corporate managers love them because they can hire 2:1 or even better over local candidates.

Re:USian Terminology

[Martin Blank]

Don't forget that they can also treat them nearly as slave labor, as an H1B visa holder cannot change jobs without a major hassle, and cannot seek any additional employment. If they quit or are fired, the visa is terminated and they have scant time to leave the country.

Re:USian Terminology

[Anonymous Coward]

H-1b is INTENDED to allow American companies to hire people with Master's degrees or better who have skillsets not available in America.

from http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/services/tempbenefit s/cap.htm
Typical H-1B occupations include architects, engineers, computer programmers, accountants, doctors and college professors. The H-1B visa program also includes fashion models.

Re:USian Terminology

[colinrichardday]

And how many persons are in each profession? Out of how many total in those professions?

Re:USian Terminology

[Valacosa]

Nice summary. Thanks!

Re:USian Terminology

[Anonymous Coward]

In the old days it used to be called indentured servitude; the idea was to basically sell yourself into slavery, for a given limited -- though potentially quite long -- duration, in exchange for the cost of passage. Nowdays, it is called H1B, but the principle remains; whereby very qualified people come here to take lousy IT jobs -- i.e., lousy as in, not necessarily rich in promotion opportunities -- at about 30% below prevalent wages (the law is supposed to prevent this wages discrepencies, but it is so easy to circumvent), in exchange for the promise of sponsoring one's green card application. The green card is therefore the carrot, and the employers are never on a hurry to start the application, one rarely gets it before the end of the H1B term, while the stick is the fact that the visa is attached to the job, i.e., you loose the job, you loose the visa, and have then ten days to leave the country (the law tends to be enforced more enthusiastically against the ex-employees). This simplifies management drastically: no whining or complaining against unpaid overtime and stupid jobs... (oh, I am an ex-H1B by the way)

Re:USian Terminology

[Foerstner]

In the US, we have websites called "search engines" which allow Americans to research topics they are unfamiliar with. Such websites return links to other pages on the web which relate to the topic input. The results are returned almost instantly, making them much faster than, say, posting a query on Slashdot. Besides providing insight into topics that are country-specific, search engines can connect their users with many other types of information, including obscure scientific and technical topics, records of historical events, analyses of art and literature, and many, many collected personal anecdotes, which are called "blogs."

The most popular Search Engine in the US is called Google, and is operated by a company of the same name. The URL for the Google search engine is http://www.google.com/. If you were to type "H-1B" into this search engine, you would first be directed to this page operated by the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, which explains the topic of the H-1B visa in detail.

I hope that "Search Engine" technology, which I know to be very popular in the US and many other countries, is of use to you in whatever nation you apparently reside.

Re:USian Terminology

[donscarletti]

In most commonwealth countries (such as India), professional degrees such as medicine, law, buisiness, engineering, etc. are all typically done as Bachelor's degrees. The concept of a 2-3 year science/arts degree at a small collage then a masters degree at another institution is pretty much unknown outside of the US.

While there are many, many bad schools in India, a graduate with a Bachelors degree from a good Indian university has all the formal education they are ever expected to have.

Re:USian Terminology

[bladesjester]

Actually, here in the United States, a bachelors degree generally takes 4 years (not 2-3) to complete and then usually about another 2 years for a masters.

Re:USian Terminology

[pete6677]

Cool, I just found a Google search that describes you. Check it out.

Re:USian Terminology

[Anonymous Coward]

> H-1b is INTENDED to allow American companies to hire people with Master's degrees or better
> who have skillsets not available in America. In practice, it's used to bring in as many
> Bachelor's Degree holders as possible every year to drive wages down in highly skilled jobs.

Yup. There's even many colleges that "specialize" in admitting foreigners, churning them
though a "4 year degree", and then channeling them into H1B positions.

Re:USian Terminology

[mochan_s]

H1B is a visa to hire foreign workers in skilled labor positions THAT A COMPANY CANNOT FIND LOCALLY.

The visa expires after 3 years. It has to be renewed again for a further 3 years at which point it cannot be renewed again. The only path is to file for a green card with the company hiring sponsoring the green card.

The individual obtaining the H1B does not explicitly have to say that they want to immigrate or not immigrate.

Companies are required to post the salary and the job requirements in the public areas of the company of a newly hired H1B worker for a certain amount of time.

Re:USian Terminology

[Golthar]

Thank you for the summary.
Now I know that outsourcing and H1B workers are a bit of a hot issue in the US, but also think of other people who may have a reason to live in the US. (other than plainly economical)
I for example have my significant other living in the US and at some point I'm hoping to leave Europe and live and work in the US instead.
I gave up on the H1B altogether for the reasons that I never got my masters (I got my bachelors and decided I didn't want to go back to school for a few more years, I have bills to pay and working seemed to give me much more than school) and it seems US companies are only interested in cheap foreign labor.
That is where the real issue is and I just hope that not every American looks down on immigrants as them wanting to get a free ride into your country and steal your jobs.
I'd be leaving behind a good paying job here and a relatively stable secure lifestyle in favor of the US job market rolercoaster.

This is nothing on you, I just wanted to thank you for your clear summary and reiterate how the H1B program just does not work for immigrants other than those from cheap labor countries. I wish it could work for me.

Re:USian Terminology

[Anonymous Coward]

This is nothing on you, I just wanted to thank you for your clear summary and reiterate how the H1B program just does not work for immigrants other than those from cheap labor countries. I wish it could work for me.

With the H1B visa, the intention is not to hire 'cheap labor.' This is the abuse of the visa that most people are concerned with, I would think.

I was a contractor for one of the GE divisions, and they absolutely took advantage of the H1B visa situation. We had a lot of contractors on H1B visas (through agencies), nearly all of them were working at a low rate (nearly half of my rate) for a similarly paying job. They worked free overtime (I got paid for my overtime). Their titles were usually below their ability and didn't match their actual job.

This is bad for everyone except the company that is taking advantage of them. Companies should not be able to use an H1B visa as leverage. It brings down wages for citizens and green card holders. It also uses up those 65000 spots (or whatever the number is) for positions that the US can fill easily. The whole point of the visa is to get new, needed talent.

Re:USian Terminology

[Anonymous Coward]

> the H1B program just does not work for immigrants other than those from cheap labor countries

I was hired from France for a job in the US with an H1-B visa, back in 1999 (with a bachelor degree.)
People have varying opinions of France, but "cheap labor country" is usually not one of them.

I won't lie, finding a US company willing to even look at my resume when I was in France with little experience and no US work visa was a challenge in itself.
In the end, good ol' networking is what made it possible.

Now I know the H1B situation has changed significantly after 2001, so what was already hard back then may be even harder now.

Anyway, try not to give up before trying simply because you believe sweeping generalizations are keeping you down.

Re:USian Terminology

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

Yep I have definitely been trying and I will keep trying. Thanks for your perspective. That sounds like maybe the way it was supposed to work originally.

Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[Anonymous Coward]

In the dot-com rush of the late 1990s, yes, we needed H1-B workers because there plain simply was not enough workers. Not today. Today, any job posting made public gets hundreds of resumes. Jobs are getting filled quickly; people who have jobs in the tech field are working long hours for a fraction of what they would have made in the hight of the dot-com bubble. More and more companies are laying off workers; Sun just recently laid off 5000 workers. The US job market is weak and the H1-B workers just make it harder.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[ClosedSource]

"In the dot-com rush of the late 1990s, yes, we needed H1-B workers because there plain simply was not enough workers. "

That was never true. H1-B workers were needed simply because salarys were beginning to rise and industry didn't want that trend to continue.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[Anonymous Coward]

There's this fantasy in many countries that it is somehow possible to invite hundreds of thousands of immigrants into your country when you need them, and somehow:
- have them have no cultural impact on your country
- have them all pick up and go back to wherever it is they abandonned in the first place on demand.

At some point after said immigrants have been around a few years, reality sets in, and people start to realize the landscape has indeed been permanently altered, for better or for worse.

More to the point, many once-H1B holders are now green card holders or just plain citizens. They're not going home, because they're already home.

Of course, you're probably meaning that *new* H1-B workers are a possible problem, with current H1-B workers being just fine where they are.
It'd be useful to see some numbers here.. What percentage of high-tech workers are actually H1-B? If it is, as I suspect, lower than one percent, it becomes hard to blame visa workers for all that ails our recovering job market.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[DigitAl56K]

If those 5000 workers at Sun were so talented, why could they not help Sun go in a direction which created enough value to keep their jobs?

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[Danga]

The US job market is weak and the H1-B workers just make it harder.

This is NOT the case at all, the job market right now is awesome. I currently have a job but I decided to put my resume on monster.com just to see what was available. I got such a response that I had to take it off of there, my e-mail inbox was full and my phone was ringing off the hook. I also want to mention that yes, about 25% of the responses I got were from head hunters but the rest were straight from the companies themselves and what suprised me the most is a large majority of the people contacting me were actually lead developers and project managers basically people who could look at my resume and see if I had the skills needed, not HR drones. Maybe the companies are finally looking for pure talent over saving money, I don't know, what I do know is the job market is WAY better than it was 2 years ago when it took me 6 months to find my current job. Oh yeah, and I am a natural born US citizen.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[rblum]

If there are hundreds of *qualified* people out there, I'd like to see them. We're trying to hire, and so far not much luck. I certainly don't see hundreds of resumes.

I'm not saying that's true for all areas of the market - but that's why the H1B issue is so complicated. Some areas really need foreign workers, because there's not enough domestic talents. Others experience a glut of workers, and the H1Bs there kill the job market - in that specific area.

There is no simple answer to this.

(Disclosure: I'm an ex-H1B myself - but the company that hired me certainly didn't get a bargain price. If they could've filled the job domestically, they probably would have.)

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[Lord Kano]

If those 5000 workers at Sun were so talented, why could they not help Sun go in a direction which created enough value to keep their jobs?

Being a highly skilled worker means NOTHING if you have shitty management. If the boss says "I need you to do XYZ." You do it even if you already know that doing ABC would be more successful.

LK

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[Marful]

I doubt Sun is laying off Senior staff. More likely the lower divisions of their company. That being said, if your job is so tenuous that the company cuts your position to save money, odds are that you are not a decision maker and thus have no impact in the "direction" the company can or can't go.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[Anonymous Coward]

i dunno...
I guess that settles it.
those 5000 should have taken over the company, its only their lack of faith in themselves that allowed them to actually do what they were hired to do instead of trying to change everything. We need more worker uprisings and boycotts to force companies to chenage their strategic direction, those stupid analysts and CEOs dont know what the heck their trying to do anyway. They should have taken over and outsorced their own jobs to a 3rd world country, that would have increased their value for sure. Jobs? who needs em, were Americans! we pull ourselves up by the bootstraps with all that grant money for going back to school and learning how to be a computer programmer, or one of the other top 10 job growth areas of the decade as reported by the US government's economic report.

Problem solved:
Emmigrate to another country and work there for an outsourcer, or get an H1-B and come back to work in America. Think of all the money you'll save! plus you'll get more respect from your employers!

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[alexmin]

The company I work for has being trying to hire junior to mid-level programmer in major metropolitan area for six months already. We are not looking for extensive experience or specialized skills, just fairly common problem-solving and communication ability. Sure, we went throught more than a hundred resumes and about a dozen in-person interviewes but so far found just one good candidate who's employed and was just testing what's going on with job market.
Even though one case does not prove anything I'd say that finding capable person is very hard.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[farble1670]

right, because we all know that in a company with almost 40k workers and 8 levels of management that it's so very possible for john doe developer to affect the company's direction. and, no one ever said they were talented, but you can rarely track a product's failure to direct incompetence by the grunt workers.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[farble1670]

If there are hundreds of *qualified* people out there, I'd like to see them.

that's irrelevant. the issue is with the direct and explicit courting of h1b workers ... at some advantage to the employer no doubt.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[Fnkmaster]

Well, by your definition, no intervention in a marketplace is ever "needed" since supply and demand will always take care of things. This is true, but you may destroy an industry or lose your national competitive advantage in the process. In the late 90s and up until the end of 2000 really, wages had been driven so high the costs of starting a tech company had ballooned. You needed to raise huge sums of VC to pay ridiculously prissy workers who wanted 150k a year and perks out the ass to do no work.

This was a short term labor supply shortage and labor demand spike, all wrapped up in one. When the bubble burst, demand subsided and the supply spiked, and prices dropped through the floor. Massively unstable wage levels are bad for the economy as a whole and bad for an industry. I would say I support immigration rule-changes when necessary to stabilize critical industries.

However, it really isn't necessary now. There are some local areas where tech wages have started a rapid runup again - apparently this is happening in Seattle now. I blame the blind trendfollowing of VCs for much of this effect, and the silliness of the IPO market that unfortunately drives the VCs (mind you, if more businesses were built to make money and not for IPO or M&A activity, this would be much less of a problem). But I digress - the point is that if wages have in fact been quite depressed in much of the tech industry and unemployment has been high, then it seems unjustified to continue to implement an immigration "hack" like the H1B program.

And when you say "industry didn't want that to continue" - it bears mentioning that domestic companies have to compete globally, especially in the software market. If you prevent all flows of international labor, you again just serve to benefit foreign incorporated firms at the expense of domestic firms. There is a balance in a healthy economy between good domestic jobs and globally competitive firms.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[TheDreadSlashdotterD]

Oh yeah, and I am a natural born US citizen.

As opposed to those artificially born US citizens. I didn't know we did birthing ceremonies for naturalized citizens.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[Tablizer]

In the dot-com rush of the late 1990s, yes, we needed H1-B workers because there plain simply was not enough workers. Not today.

Tech is cyclical, always has been and probably always will be if not more so. If they would shut down the visa inflow and send home any taking jobs that unemployed citizens could fill, perhaps the backlash wouldn't be so great. During the downturn I had to take fly-by-night gigs that were away from my family in beat-up offices with shredding carpet that got stuck in the chair wheels. I was often surrounded by H-1B's that were no doubt causing similar situations for other citizen techies.

We need an Alan Greenspan-like figure(s) to regulate the flow and distribution of visa workers. Further, candidate H1B openings should be made publicly available, perhaps on a government website. The "training fee" they currently take in should instead be shifted toward opening up records and monitoring the flow.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[gmhowell]

We're trying to hire, and so far not much luck.

Where are you located? Open up your email on /. and a comment like that should net you plenty of responses.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[Anonymous Coward]

That was never true. H1-B workers were needed simply because salarys were beginning to rise and industry didn't want that trend to continue.

Actually you are both wrong though the parent poster is less wrong. H1-B visas are issued to workers in the cases where a company didn't find a "qualified" citizen to do the job. That can mean that none of the applications they recieved had the appropriate qualifications, or that no one bothered to apply at all. If an employer is audited they actually have to be able to prove this. There a number of differant types of visas, they have differant lengths of time they are valid for. The companies bringing in employees on these visas are typically paying a significant sum of money for the visa and for legal fees associated with obtaining the visa as well as for fees that will be accrued when/if the employees visa needs to be renewed. In addition to these expenses foreign workers are paid by the majority of the high tech companies in the U.S. at the same or only slightly lower rates as citizens. Often the slightly reduced rate is due to the expense of bringing over a foreign worker.

I do nothing but deal with high tech companies on a daily basis and handle HR issues mainly pertaining to immigration issues, though my company handles all employees it's much easier and cheaper to hire a U.S. citizen. The biggest differance I see between employees that are citizens and those that are on work visas is the level of education. The foreign workers have more education than their American counterparts.

When companies outsource to foreign companies they are trying to cut costs. When they bring foreign workers to the U.S. they are trying to hire qualified people. It doesn't sound nearly as good for those arguing against the immigration programs we have in place of course, but it is the reality of the situation.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[Danga]

As opposed to those artificially born US citizens. I didn't know we did birthing ceremonies for naturalized citizens.

Here is a lesson for you:

There are 2 main types of US citizens, natural born and naturalized (along with dual citizenship which is similar to naturalized). Natural born means being born within the United States, being born abroad with both parents being United States citizens, or being born abroad with one parent being a United States citizen.

Naturalized mean you are a citizen of another country and must go through a process to become a US citizen.

You obviously knew nothing about either. Please go to school and actually pay attention so you can actually have intelligent conversations.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[gmhowell]

Name your company and list your email address on /. You'll get at least one more resume;)

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[russotto]

[QUOTE]If there are hundreds of *qualified* people out there, I'd like to see them. We're trying to hire, and so far not much luck. I certainly don't see hundreds of resumes.[/QUOTE]

Then you're probably doing a reasonably good job of separating the wheat from the chaff -- and throwing away the wheat. Lots of ways you can do this. You could be demanding a set of skills which nobody has, so only poseurs apply. You could be demanding a set of skills which nobody at the professional level you're asking for for has. Your job ads might hint that you aren't a good employer to work for. If you have someone pre-screening the resume, they could be doing it badly, again letting only poseurs through. Etc.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Well, by your definition, no intervention in a marketplace is ever "needed" since supply and demand will always take care of things.

Now you're getting it - when salaries rise, companies are forced to be more efficient - they could pay me twice what they do (and it is a decent number to start with) and still come out ahead if there was strong leadership in the industry. Most projects that fail could have succeeded or been killed early if only people would learn the lessons from something as old as the mythical man month.

You needed to raise huge sums of VC to pay ridiculously prissy workers who wanted 150k a year and perks out the ass to do no work.

This was never true. The fact is, VCs would demand you spend a certain amount of money every month and get mad if you fell behind. Go ask Jeff Bezos if he paid prissy workers out the ass when he was starting amazon.

This was a short term labor supply shortage and labor demand spike, all wrapped up in one.

Since when? Good people are always hard to find, but refusing to hire older people doesn't help.

There are some local areas where tech wages have started a rapid runup again - apparently this is happening in Seattle now.

Ooh, I hope so. It'd be nice to work somewhere for 2 years and pay my house off.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[alexmin]

Well, we don't really need another resume, we need a programmer. Seriously, risk of posting real email on slashdot by far outweights any possible chance of hiring good guy. :) Afaik, our ad is still on craigslist.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[Senior Frac]

You missed a key part here. I'll add it in bold for you...

H1-B visas are supposed to be issued to workers in the cases where a company didn't find a "qualified" citizen to do the job.

This is not how they are used in practice. What happens is that the job requirements are specifically written to be ludicrous: "28 years of AJAX experience, 21 in Java, etc." and often run 4 pages in length. They put this on Monster for a month and all job applicants laugh at it as an obvious H1B bid. Once they get no realistic response [by design] their favorite Indian body shop contacts them with a resume full of outright fabrications. Low and behold, it matches the job requirements! (Note that many of the resumes will contain the same misspellings as the job requirements document.)

Now, if they are ever audited (extremely rare), they can wave this paper and say, "See? He was the only qualified applicant!"

The grey area is that the body shops write the CV and make stuff up out of thin air. It is completely insane and unethical, but what does the worker have to lose? "After all, it was the body shop who lied, not me!"

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[pete6677]

There's your problem. Well qualified professionals don't go to craigslist to look for jobs. Most of the jobs you see on craigslist are crap jobs with shady companies, so serious jobseekers go elsewhere. During my recent job search I quickly stopped looking at craigslist when I saw mostly ads wanting someone to completely run an office for about $24,000 a year. Advertise the job on monster or Dice and you'll get some good resumes. I know it costs money unlike craigslist, but if you can afford to hire someone you can afford to buy an ad.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[cyber-vandal]

You know what companies used to do when they couldn't find experienced staff? They trained people. You may have heard of the concept.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[tompaulco]

Yes, I get a lot of responses as well when I update my resume on Monster or Dice, but the people who contact me are usually headhunters, and almost always offering a pittance. I had a headhunter contact me about an Oracle DBA and Unix System Administrator position. It was a 6 month contract position for $30 an hour. That's significantly less than I get right now as a full time employee.
90% or more of the headhnters that contact me are Indian sounding names.
ALL of the jobs I have applied for have had more information than I felt necessary about H1B status. One of the applications had one page for the basic info and skill requirements, and 4 PAGES on H1B information. Needless to say, I got no callback on that one.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[TheDreadSlashdotterD]

And you obviously don't know how to take a joke. Take your lesson and shove it.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[alexmin]

The ad was posted for few months on Monster, MonsterTrack and Dice. I personally suggested using Dice since it was my preferred place for job searching. However we found that Dice has very poor signal to noise ratio. Sure, Dice has generated a lot of resumes but no good person to invite to interview.
The job description is to help out quantitative analysts with market data collection and programmers with building and running execution systems. Someone with 5 years of relevant experience would earn 6 figures doing that. So I dont think compensation is a problem either.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[ClosedSource]

"You needed to raise huge sums of VC to pay ridiculously prissy workers who wanted 150k a year and perks out the ass to do no work."

You didn't mention what level of experience was supposed to go with 150K a year. I'm not sure if any companies were paying that kind of money for programmers with less than 10 years of experience, but if they were, they were probably by dot-com companies with crazy business models that were going to fail anyway. I think a lot of companies during that period gave their workers large amounts of worthless stock options rather than high salaries anyway.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[Watson Ladd]

Cheating Uncle Sam is a piece of cake. Skew the questions asked at interviews. Make detailed skill sets that exclude everyone but the worker you want. And H-1B's skew the balance of power between employees and employers by elimiating the employee's power to bargin. As for audits, they are never done.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[h4x0r-3l337]

Uhm, what country are you living in? It is REALLY HARD to find good people. Hundreds of resumes means nothing if they're all mediocre. I've interviewed many people who were just plain no good. That includes people with years of experience at other companies. I guess it's just really easy to stay under the radar at big companies. Just because Sun layed off 5000 people doesn't mean that there's now suddenly an extra 5000 skilled people to choose from.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[h4x0r-3l337]

There are 2 main types of US citizens, natural born and naturalized (along with dual citizenship which is similar to naturalized).

Bzzt. My son, due in a few weeks, will be a natural born citizen AND have dual citizenship. Also, does being a natural-born citizen somehow make you better than somebody who actually had to WORK at becoming a US citizen?

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[Danga]

Bzzt. My son, due in a few weeks, will be a natural born citizen AND have dual citizenship.

Okay, if you want to be pedantic about it then yes I left out US citizens who have dual citizenship by being citizens of another country besides the US. I figured people could figure that one out on their own. If however you think you are a natural born citizen of the US and were not born here or had at least one parent who was a US citizen you are wrong and you in fact are a naturalized citizen, there is no way around that rule.

Also, does being a natural-born citizen somehow make you better than somebody who actually had to WORK at becoming a US citizen?

No, not at all. I consider both types equal and really look up to the people who put in the effort to become US citizens. I find most of them more useful then the poor, natural born US citizens who put in no effort to find any type of job and just try to live off welfare forever, what a waste of a life. The reason I mentioned being a natural born citizen was to show that you don't have to have H1-B status or GC status to be able to easily find a GOOD job. The jobs are out there and from what I have seen they are available almost all over the US. The market is great right now.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[rblum]

Very funny. We do train people - but if I need an experienced person now, I can hardly insta-train her, can I now?

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[rblum]

Hardly see the reason for that. I'm working for a games company in L.A., and we advertise on our own site, Gamasutra, and several others. If people are incapable of reading job posts on the major industry sites, I don't think they are qualified for the job.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[rblum]

If it were only at my company, maybe you would be right. It's industry-wide though. Every single project lead I know is desperate for additional good people. Heck, junior guys in the industry get weekly calls by recruiters right now.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[gmhowell]

So you work at a rinky dink games company that doesn't get any traffic, and you claim you don't get hundreds of resumes? Amazing. You're right; you have to rush to overseas markets to fill your staff.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

Do you read everything on slashdot? There is a lot of info here and loads of comments. I don't have a job and I still don't feel that I have time to read everything here. Wake Up. Post it on monster or careerbuilder or something. We'd probably see it then. It would be one of the few that actually said what company it is for.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

I have a CS degree from a highly ranking school but don't have any related work experience. I'll work for the H1-B equivalent salary, hire me.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[ClosedSource]

Let's apply Occam's razor to the problem. If 5000 people are layed off and your company can't find any they want to hire, what is the simplest explanation: That these 5000 people are incompetent, or that your company is incompetent at hiring people?

Companies that are serious about accomplishment hire the best people available within a reasonable time and get on with the work, they don't wait around for people with "perfect" qualifications.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[ClosedSource]

"If people are incapable of reading job posts on the major industry sites, I don't think they are qualified for the job."

I find this comment very interesting. Companies complain about being unable to find qualified people and yet their focus is always on finding reasons not to hire people. You know the drill: typo on the Resume, wrong clothes for the interview, didn't have a 5 year plan, couldn't answer our pet puzzle question that proves how smart we are, etc.

All these rather pointless reasons to eliminate people that are most likely going to be around for only 2 or 3 years anyway.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[Chesler]

when I update my resume on Monster or Dice

After I got my job I updated my resumes on those services, and added verbiage that I was now employed after several months and no longer looking. Somehow the change triggered something, and I got a bunch of calls. I usually asked the headhunters if they'd actually read my resume before contacting me.

Even when I was unemployed, and I'd checked all the boxes that I wasn't interested in relocation (I own a home and have a family. I'm in a high tech area. At some point I might have to pack it in and move to where there are jobs, but if there aren't jobs in greater Boston/128 there aren't likely to be jobs elsewhere. And I can't afford to keep a roof over my family here, while I rent a room "there" (usually metro New Jersey, sometimes defense contracts in Florida or Alabama), and commute home on a regular basis, for $30/hour) I was getting calls for jobs that required relocation, or were obviously not a fit.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[h4x0r-3l337]

...US citizens who have dual citizenship by being citizens of another country besides the US

Isn't that the *only* way to have dual-citizenship?
What I was talking about was that someone can be born in the US as the child of a foreign parent, making them a natural born citizen by definition, while at the same the other country recognizes the child as a citizen too, virtue of being born to a citizen of *that* country. Therefore, the child will be both a natural born citizen AND have dual citizenship, which according to you are two distinct types of US citizens.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[jhylkema]

There are some local areas where tech wages have started a rapid runup again - apparently this is happening in Seattle now.

Ooh, I hope so. It'd be nice to work somewhere for 2 years and pay my house off.

Not in Seattle. We're in a full-on housing bubble. Wages may be going up, but housing prices are going up twice as fast. The American Dream is just that.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Not in Seattle. We're in a full-on housing bubble. Wages may be going up, but housing prices are going up twice as fast.

Then maybe I need to keep to my original plan and sell in a bit...

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[rblum]

This is actually about showing interest in your particular field of business. If you can't be bothered to read the top sites in your field, I've got some doubts you're actually interested in the work you do.

Apart from that, how do you propose we actually reach people, if not through those web sites?

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[rblum]

It's not exactly rinky-dinky. And it's the same for *all* games companies. We can't find enough qualified hires. That means yes, I'll (grudgingly) accept working through a mountain of paperwork for an H1B if that gives me a qualified person.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[rblum]

It is posted on the equivalent of monster/careerbuilder for our industry. It's not just a random comment, it's right in the "job offers" section. You know, paid-for ad and all. And since those ads cost money, we're limited to in-industry sites/publications.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[rblum]

http://www.pandemicstudios.com/jobs_la.php

No guarantees, but sending in a resume can't hurt. Prepare for a tough interview.

(Not speaking for the company, opinions are my own, yadda yadda...)

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

Ok thanks for the link, I will check them out.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[Gideon Fubar]

*makes mental note* pity i don't live in Brisbane (or LA) ;) kudos, everything pandemic touch atm turns to gold.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[cyber-vandal]

No, but experienced people don't just appear, they require training and experience, something that a lot of places seem unwilling to contribute to the industry at large. Having scarcity of talent doesn't benefit your business or any of the others at all.
I'm speaking from a position of experience here being a mainframer that was chucked on the scrapheap at the age of 33. Although I have 15 years dealing with various major IT systems, have knowledge of VB (don't laugh) and Java and passed a C++ course with ease the last three years in IT were "no you can't have training in new tech" followed by "sorry we don't need you anymore" followed by "do you have 2+ years experience in new tech? No? Bye then".
I'm a little bitter and I'm sorry for being sarcastic, especially since I wouldn't have a clue how to do what you require from a developer. I just get a little tired of hearing how it's impossible to find experienced IT people given my experience of how hard it is to get that experience in the first place.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[Chesler]

training and experience, something that a lot of places seem unwilling to contribute to the industry at large.

This is the same kind of negative externality, on the individual level (times many individuals) as the leveraged-buyout-sell-the-assets method of investment, both of which are akin to eating the seed corn.

A forward-thinking and lucky engineer recognizes that training and other positioning for the next job are part of the compensation for this job, but it should be easier. For now the employers are finding it cheaper in the short term to consider programmers disposable. When you no longer need skills in last year's flavor, lay off that programmer, and when you want skills, find the cheapest programmer who has those skills off the shelf.

I don't know how to change the paradigm so that the employers internalize those costs. In the long term there has to be a gain for employers as well as employees in having loyalty and longevity and stability.

There is a long tradition of bemoaning the shortsightedness that values the quarterly bottom line over long-term investments. The long view has positive externalities, even more when the investment is a leasehold improvement (engineers are not chattel -- they are free to go and to take their skills with them). What can we do, as a nation, to encourage the long view? Among other things, I think we are collectively better off if we have a viable software industry here, and that requires a pool of talent of various levels of experience. The grand new ideas come from individuals in that pool, and so do the middle managers and technical leads to bring those ideas to fruition.

In general, immigration, and immigrants-as-commodities, are regulated so that there is a slow, steady supply. The industries that clamor for H1-Bs are asking to bypass that system. Doing so is obviously to the short-term benefit of consumers of engineering, and to the detriment of domestic suppliers of engineering. Barring special circumstances, we don't do that, we keep the playing field level. The employers claim that there is a skills shortage, and that this is a special circumstance that justifies the bypassing of the usual slow immigration, but there is no inherent skills shortage (as demonstrated by all the unemployed and underemployed engineers) and to the degree that particular skills are needed, any shortage is of the employers' own making. (An experienced programmer can pick up a new language variant quickly.)

This is like oil companies claiming that there is a shortage of gasoline, and therefore, since gasoline is a necessary commodity, they should be subsidized so they can make more gasoline, while they are holding crude oil offshore and otherwise manipulating the market to create that very shortage.

Newflash

[ezwip]

There was a war in this country and only one side showed up at the fight. The other side is still waiting on their invitations in the mail. Unfortunately, they will never arrive. If you don't know what I'm talking about... you lost.

Re:Newflash

[ezwip]

I appologize in advance. I keep wandering out of my free speech zone.

Re:Newflash

[heinousjay]

If your post made any sense, I might react to it. Instead, I sit here baffled, wondering what in the hell you're blathering about.

Truth in Advertising?

[is as us Infinite]

If the HR department are looking for a certain type of people, wouldn't you like that information to be made public? I mean, it saves them time from having to sift through the large population of non-H1-B applications they don't want and the people sending the applications. Although, maybe they can just put 'Excellent coder with great references and 10+ years of experience. English optional. Beginning salary: 30k.' but I somehow think the flag would be raised in a different manner there...

(;

Re:Truth in Advertising?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

In America- we have this set of laws called the "Equal Opportunity Act". Bigotry of this sort shouldn't happen. It does because immigrants are easy to control and pay a fraction of the cost of an American.

Re:Truth in Advertising?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you want to work for an employer who had to be forced by law to hire you?

Re:Truth in Advertising?

[Lord Kano]

If the choice is that or not working at all do you really need to ask?

Dave Chappelle said he'd rather people look at him and say that he's an "affirmative action hire" than "That nigger's homeless."

LK

Re:Truth in Advertising?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

If it's a choice between that and becomeing homeless (like so many programmers I know over the last 5 years) then I'll take forced by law.

Re:Truth in Advertising?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you really know programmers that are homeless? That seems pretty hard for me to believe. I don't know where you are (I'm in Portland, Oregon) but even my hardcore stoner friend who barely knows Java can get a job doing entry-level programming. It only pays 40k a year but at least it keeps a roof over his head and buds in his bowl.

Re:Truth in Advertising?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Do you really know programmers that are homeless? That seems pretty hard for me to believe. I don't know where you are (I'm in Portland, Oregon)

Were- most of them ended up out in Newberg farming instead of programming. Had to move out of the expensive city.

What this really is... Job tailoring?

[rsborg]

As someone who knows quite a few non-Americans on H1B, this might simply be a case of people creating jobs, so they can justify an H1B for specific people. ie, someone is already here in the US, would like a job, and the hiring manager at some company (or a friend running some body-shop consultancy) lazily writes up a job description "requiring H1B Visa"... therefore targetting the job at the friend/acquaintance that they want to hire.

I know that this "job-tailoring" is done frequently in the industry as a way of getting the exact person you know. Just that if it fits this shoe, it's quite certainly illegal... kind of like saying you want someone who is/not specific race/disabled/etc.

I, for one, hope that the hiring managers who put up such job descriptions get fired, as it's part and parcel of the corruption. Just wish we could fire them for other similar "job-tailoring" activities.

Re:What this really is... Job tailoring?

[Lord Kano]

Just that if it fits this shoe, it's quite certainly illegal... kind of like saying you want someone who is/not specific race/disabled/etc.

Many times employers do specifically exclude disabled people. "Job requires the ability to lift 50 pounds 5 feet into the air."

It's perfectly legal to disqualify someone based upon a disability if that disability prevents them from doing the job.

LK

Re:What this really is... Job tailoring?

[Duncan3]

I know that this "job-tailoring" is done frequently in the industry as a way of getting the exact person you know.

Actually, that's the only reason anyone still writes job ads. If you nor your employees know poeple good for the job, you're already out of business.

That's just how it is.

Re:What this really is... Job tailoring?

[MindStalker]

Hiring a specific person for a job is in no way illigal, the problem is that government agencies and even some companies policies require advertising even if you already have someone for the job. Its kinda silly really, but a simple fact.

Re:What this really is... Job tailoring?

[Anonymous Coward]

You often find that in sysadmin jobs. Well, 50 pounds is often what a good server weighs. 5 feet is the hight of smaller racks. Coincidence?

Re:What this really is... Job tailoring?

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Hiring a specific person for a job is in no way illigal, the problem is that government agencies and even some companies policies require advertising even if you already have someone for the job. Its kinda silly really, but a simple fact.

It is illegal when the someone is an H1-B and you advertise in such a way as to exclude everyone else (often by requiring irrelevant qualifications).

Re:What this really is... Job tailoring?

[gerilart]

No, not everybody else but only aliens who do not have an H-1B and due shortage will not be able to get it for a year. If you are a citizen or permanent resident you are qualified.

Re:What this really is... Job tailoring?

[illumin8]

...lazily writes up a job description "requiring H1B Visa"... therefore targetting the job at the friend/acquaintance that they want to hire.

The only problem with this is that it's still illegal. An american company that wants to hire an H1B visa worker has to sign a statement saying that they have made an effort to find an american worker to do this job, but have been unable to do so, and therefore, their only option is an H1B visa worker.

By requiring an H1B visa to get in the door, this is violating the law. Period, end of story.

Re:What this really is... Job tailoring?

[Anonymous Coward]

And you believe that 'violating the law' will keep it from happening? I guess Enron, WorldCom, etc didn't teach you anything. The whole point is that it is happening, ex: fluent in English, and Mandrin, eliminates nearly all Americans, and is still 'plausible' as a requirement. Others have noted the attraction for business: indentured servatude, sub-market wages, and wage depression for non-H1B workers. These attractations outweigh the illegality so businesses follow the 11th commandment (don't get caught)l.

Re:What this really is... Job tailoring?

[Chesler]

An american company that wants to hire an H1B visa worker has to sign a statement saying that they have made an effort to find an american worker to do this job, but have been unable to do so, and therefore, their only option is an H1B visa worker. No they don't.

Re:What this really is... Job tailoring?

[Anonymous Coward]

For a "Good" server you are about 200 pounds underweight.

Americans want the work...

[a_greer2005]

Big AG business doesnt want Americans.

Wants the impossible

[Nom du Keyboard]

The Programmer's Guild actually expects to force Congress and the Courts to obey the laws they've enacted? In what Perfect World is this?

Re:Wants the impossible

[Tremo]

LOL, this will never be enforced as long as BushCo is in office and the neocons control congress.

Re:Wants the impossible

[Foobar of Borg]

LOL, this will never be enforced as long as BushCo is in office and the neocons control congress.

Or even as long as some Democrats are bought-and-paid-for shills of corporations as well. The good news (such as it may be) is that there is rising movement among Democrats to get rid of scum like this. There is no such movement among the Republicans. Of course, if I had my way, I would ban political parties all together and force everyone running for office to run as an independent. At the very least, even you have political party associations, the debates, ballots and everything else that is a part of the people actually choosing who should be in office would not have any relation to what party the candidate belonged to. Well, I guess I can dream...

Re:Wants the impossible

[finkployd]

Are you under the impression that the Democrats would change anything if in power? That is so cute. I'm pretty much convinced that strict single term limits are the only answer. Career politicians from both parties are equally bad, just in different ways.

Finkployd

Re:Wants the impossible

[Maxo-Texas]

The republicans will continue to get away with anything they want for the rich and business as long as the abortion issue isn't won.

Once legal abortion is overturned by a solid supreme court majority, the republican party is going to lose power astonishingly quickly.

They are doing all kinds of things their religious base is ignoring until the abortion issue is resolved.

And the democrats are going to continue to lose until then as well.

After it is overturned, I see the reverse being true for at least 20 years.

Re:Wants the impossible

[Anonymous Coward]

The Programmer's Guild actually expects to force Congress and the Courts to obey the laws they've enacted? In what Perfect World is this?

Ummm, no. The Programmer's Guild want the Courts to enforce the laws that Congress passed.

This has nothing to do with Congress obeying the law, which is a completely different subject. And Courts don't enact law in the USA.

Re:Wants the impossible

[NDPTAL85]

Single term limits are working out just swell for Mexico.....

Re:Wants the impossible

[finkployd]

United States != Mexico

I'm not saying the concept does not have its problems, but I believe those problems would bit be as bad as the horrid mess we have now.

Finkployd

Don't have to discriminate to be cheapassed...

[posterlogo]

Not sure why these companies feel they have to actively seek out foreign visa workers like that, so blatantly discriminating. There are far more legal ways to achieve the goal of a free-market style cheap labor economy. For example, the obvious, an American worker is not intrinsically "worth" more than a foreign worker, so why not just offer the same starting salary to any entry-level candidate? Chances are the foreign visa worker will still see that as a decent offering and take the job, whereas the American worker may not. It really seems like the goal was to get qualified workers without having to offer the inflated salaries that domestic workers expect. Couldn't this sort of be established de facto by offering every candidate a salary comparable to what a visa worker would get, rather then de jure by hiring only visa workers?

Re:Don't have to discriminate to be cheapassed...

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't just want to pay less, they want a carte blanche to treat their employees like crap. An H1-B visa worker will put up with a lot more abuse from an employer since they depend on the employer to keep them in the country. This is the evolution of the idea of preferring people with families to single workers. The theory is, if they have a family, they also have a mortgage, car payments, college tuition, etc... to provide for their family, making it much less likely they will up and quit if the employer treats them unfairly.

Re:Don't have to discriminate to be cheapassed...

[lelitsch]

Actually, that is the law--and has been as long as I can remember. For every H1-B application, the employer has to file a LCA (Labor Condition Application) with USCIS. One of the parts of this is that the Department of Labor--not the employer--has to certify that the person they sponsor is paid the prevailing wage in the area.

Which at real cheapskate companies leads to H1-B employees making more than US workers, because nobody requires companies to pay US citizens the prevailing wave.

The reason why H1-B workers have the potential to lower wages is because they have more people competing for tech jobs, not because they are paid less. If you think a H1-B worker is paid less than the prevailing wage, LCA are matters of public record. Request them from the DoL or USCIS and pass them on to a US attorney.

Re:Don't have to discriminate to be cheapassed...

[goldfita]

The trouble is H1B visa holders are at the mercey of the corporation that hires them whereas an American can pack up and leave at any time. That means the H1Bs effectively cost (much) less.

Re:Don't have to discriminate to be cheapassed...

[Generic Guy]

One of the parts of this is that the Department of Labor--not the employer--has to certify that the person they sponsor is paid the prevailing wage in the area.

I've also known some H1B workers in the past. Although not making minimum wage, they were usually at the bottom of the salary scale. As I've seen answered here already, H1B's are easier to manage because they pretty much become indentured servants to their sponsers.

Re:Don't have to discriminate to be cheapassed...

[Anonymous Coward]

> They don't just want to pay less, they want a carte blanche to treat their employees
> like crap. An H1-B visa worker will put up with a lot more abuse [snip]

Exactly. You are *so* right.

An employer I happen to know very well *loves* young single employees (Not *that* way. Well, maybe that way too. Dunno.). Besides the "execs", all the employees at this particular company are are young un-married people. You know who they love even more? Yup. H1B's. Sleazy employers *adore* H1B's, in a manner of speaking. They work dirt cheap. First in and last to leave too.

It even gets better. I've seen the situation where the employer purposely goofs up the visa paperwork to state that the H1B employee actually does something other than their actual job. See, H1B's can job-hop, but only for the job that's listed on their paperwork. If an employer "accidentally" writes in the wrong job description and then successfully pressures the employee to sign everything anyway, that *really* locks them in (that is, "if you leave me, you're leaving the country").

And, by the way, there are *many* H1B's out there applying for work. Plenty to go around. I've found it to be about 7 out of 10 applicants.

Who cares?

[Danga]

Let them take the low paying and boring jobs. If you are an excellent programmer you WILL be in demand and you most likely wouldn't want the positions that advertise they want H1B's and GC holders. The people I do see this hurting is entry level candidates but even so if you can prove you are worth your salt you will find a nice job.

Re:Who cares?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

You're not allowed to "prove your salt", at least not easily. I was laid off with 8 years of industry experience in 2001. I was utterly ignored in the "spam out the resume" world. So I hitched on to my migraines as a disability, got my foot in the door contracting with the state, and after 2.5 years of proving myself as a contractor, I'll be getting my first real paycheck with benefits next month.

It took me 5 years to "prove my salt" all over again, despite having 8 years in the industry. I'm only now programming at the same skill level I was in 1999, having had to do all the crap jobs to prove my salt. You know NOTHING of the real world- you've been coddled. Hope you've kept up on your studying.

Re:Who cares?

[Aadain2001]

"The people I do see this hurting is entry level candidates but even so if you can prove you are worth your salt you will find a nice job."

Ah-ha! There is the real damage being done to not only our economy, but our society as a whole! The idea that it's ok to fill entry level positions with cheap foreign labor/workers it a cancer on our society. Those entry level positions may not be that important, but you learn a lot in those jobs, especially right out of college. If you can't get real world experience, how will you ever get that "nice job"? Get a friend to tailor a job for you in a position you have zero experience with? Fake it on your resume and hope they don't find out? If you do not have entry level positions for those graduating from college, they will never mature into experience programmers/engineers and we'll have to pull from the H-1B visa holders again for the experienced positions. After all, they were the ones in the entry level positions, they got the experience, so they should get the jobs at the next level too. Soon even the most experienced positions will be available for foreign replacement. And where will you be then? In the unemployment line or busing tables like the rest of us educated types who never got our careers off the ground because there were no entry level positions for us.

Re:Who cares?

[/dev/trash]

So wait. I'm an entry level dude who is somehow supposed to prove he can do the job, by doing what?????

Read Catch-22.

Re:Who cares?

[Danga]

By nailing the interview? I came out of school with zero years of real world experience since I spent my time off from school working as an electrician (I am from a small town with no programming jobs and I wanted to be near my hometown friends in my time off) and I was able to find someone who could see I had the potential to be a good programmer even though I had nothing on paper besides school experience to prove otherwise. It did take a long time to finally find the job but it's not impossible.

The best thing I can tell entry level candidates with no experience to do is come up with your own interesting project in your spare time or download an open source project and fix a few bugs or even add some functionality to it. Just having a passion for computers in general is a big bonus. I think if you have those types of things to show yet no real world experience it will make a huge difference unless the person interviewing you is a moron.

Re:Who cares?

[Danga]

You're not allowed to "prove your salt", at least not easily.

I never said this was easy, I agree it can be difficult but it is far from impossible.

You know NOTHING of the real world- you've been coddled. Hope you've kept up on your studying.

I have kept up on my studying, I learn new things at work everyday be it learning how to use some new API's, libraries, working with new technology, or just coming up with new implementations. Maybe I don't know everything about the real world but I seriously wonder why you are having such a problem finding work, are you stuck with only job experience in an extremely specialized area? I listed my resume on a jobsite a couple weeks ago just to see what response I would get and I got such a huge response that I had to take it off of there. No, it was not all head hunters, way more than the majority of it was coming directly from the companies with the open positions and it also was not all from company recruiters, a lot of the responses were from people who could actually read my resume and understand it to see if I was a good fit for the positions that were open. This was all without sending my resume to one company, just putting it out there for companies to search and find. You must just have skills that are outdated or some other deficiency holding you back because the job market is better than it has been in a LONG time.

Re:Who cares?

[Danga]

Those entry level positions may not be that important

I should have specified clearly that I did not think it was "a good thing" that this is hurting entry level positions. I totally agree that entry level positions can be the only way for people new to the industry to prove themselves, that was exactly my case when I started out. My hope is that people who are doing the interviewing can see that a person has the potential to learn and grow into a useful developer instead of immediatly passing them over because they have no experience.

What I meant by what I said in my original post is that H1B's could hurt entry level positions because if a company has the choice of hiring an H1B who at least has some experience and probably will work for a lower than normal wage and a new hire demanding the prevailing wage then the company will probably choose the H1B. I see entry level programmers being the hardest hit and I think that is horrible for them but I in no way look at this as a totally unimportant issue. When I said "who cares" I was referring to mid-senior level positions that take skill and people think will be quickly outsourced.

Soon even the most experienced positions will be available for foreign replacement.

This may occur somewhat (although I find it unlikely) with large companies but I think small to medium sized companies want their staff HERE. Having no language barrier and being able to interact directly with the people you work with is a HUGE benefit and it is downright more efficient. I am not worried at all.

Re:Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

you have got to be kidding me. what exactly do you do that makes you think you are so totally irreplaceable?

Re:Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

Reading about the screwups of a dickwad just made my day! Oh, BTW, I am a H-1B.

Re:Who cares?

[NormalVisual]

On the other hand, electricians are one group of people that are pretty damned hard to outsource. :-)

Re:Who cares?

[tompaulco]

I used to be delusional in that way, too. I was very good at almost any job I did. Supervisors loved me, customers loved me.I was well above average and new it. But I got cocky and thought that as long as I displayed far above average skills, that I would always be in demand. But then after 9/11 I spent nearly a year without work, and started over making a take home pay that was only about 30% of my previous take home. I have now got myself back up to almost 50%.
Don't fool yourself. Companies would rather pay less money for less talent, even if that means that the person can't do the job at all.

Re:Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am for asian country and I have phd. I cannot find good opportunities in my home country appropriate to my qualifications. So does it mean that since I was born in a different country, am not allowed to seek opportunities abroad. Many americans don't opt for specializing and doing phd. So if a job required a phd - e.g. university professor, national labs, research labs -- don't complain it being give to foreigners.

Re:Who cares?

[Danga]

I used to be delusional in that way, too. I was very good at almost any job I did.

I am not dilusional. I put my resume on a jobsite and got so many responses that I had to take it off, I know I am in demand. If you spend a year without work and must take a job that is 30% of what you used to take home then you either have outdated skills or were being way overpaid. Companies will pay less money for less talent but they don't do that for positions that they actually care about unless they have horrible managers. The job market is good for those who have the skills. Just from putting my resume on that one jobsite I have been notified of good jobs in Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, New York, Washington, New Jersey, Floriday, Texas, California, Colorado, Washington, Georgia, Washington DC, and a few other states. This was all without even putting any effort in besides posting my resume.

You are the one who is dilusional and you either have outdated skills, are way too specialized, or you don't have any skills at all.

Re:Who cares?

[tompaulco]

Sure the job market is great now, but don't kid yourself. It doesn't matter how good you are, when the job market goes down, employers start looking at the bottom line. Not the top line that says you do three times as much work as everyone else, the bottom line, where it says you get paid 20% more than everyone else. It doesn't matter how much you educate yourself, diversify, whatever, at the end of the day, being better than everyone else is no guarantee of a job. It doesn't matter how much you criticize my skills, claim I am too specified, or have outdated skills, if you think just being great at your job entitles you to continuous employment, prepare to be surprised. I used to think just like you and said the same things about people who were out of work, and I got canned and replaced by H1B workers. I couldn't find a job anywhere in Chicago or Wisconsin.
Now the market is much better. I get several contacts a day from headhunters. All much lower than I would take, but they are all looking for H1Bs anyway, so even if I applied I wouldn't be accepted.

Re:Who cares?

[Danga]

I don't respond to head hunters or bottom feeders offering uncompetitive pay. Right now I have interviews lined up with Microsoft and Amazon.com and a few others that are in the Chicago area as well. All of these jobs specifically said they do not want H1B visa applicants. The pay is not low at all, $75-125k+ salary and great benefits. All of this without putting in any more work than posting my resume. This is why I don't understand people who say nothing good is available, because it is available. I use C/C++ and PERL and have a lot of device driver level, API, and library experience but nothing out of the ordinary.

I know there is no guarantee I will always have a job but from the looks of things right now I am not worried. I also like to work for smaller companies where it does not make sense to outsource people (right now I am at a 2 person company). I do not mean to criticize your skills but what is your experience and skills that makes it so hard for you to find employment? I am just curious.

Re:Who cares?

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

"I see entry level programmers being the hardest hit and I think that is horrible for them"

thank you

Re:Who cares?

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

That is similar to my situation. I'm from a small town as well. I should have spent another year in college, taking less classes, and got a job/joined a group or something to have some sort of experience, and stayed there year round instead of working at home during the summers. I have come up with my own interesting project :)

http://www.ngumbi.com/

That is exactly what I thought. Since I don't have work experience, and can't get work experience, I have to make something on my own just to prove something. It's nothing earth shattering but I hope it shows I can be useful. I have continued working on the project and it's looking pretty good now so I've had it on my resume.

Re:Who cares?

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

I agree with you. If you have a PHD then that's great. It's good to bring smart people to our country :)

I have heard from a friend in Guangzhou that there are so many people in China getting degrees now that there are too many people for jobs. It makes me feel bad for them but I don't have a job either. Maybe I should go back to school.

Re:Who cares?

[tompaulco]

I have employment. I'm not saying the job market is bad now. It's great now, as I said. I get three or four e-mails a day from headhunters. It was after 9/11 that I lost employment. I had programming experience, Solaris admin experience, Sybase and Oracle DBA experience and Data Warehouse architecture experience. I was great at my job and in high demand in the best of times, but in the worst of times, it counts for nothing. Rather, it counts against you, because companies think you will want to much money, or leave when the market gets better. Plus I was a consultant, and at the time, many companies were refusing to hire contracters for the same reasons, and also to punish contractors for daring to be independent and take the money they deserved rather than what a company felt like paying them.
My point remains simply this: when times are tough, they don't care if you are the best, they want the cheapest. RAID 5 when times are good, RAID 0 and hope for the best when times are tough.

Re:Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am an excellent programmer. (Bronx Science, Applied Math degree with a CS specialty from Harvard, 20 years experience, current skills, and so forth. I can do Java; my top skills are C/C++, Windows and Unix.) I live in the 128 area. I've been out of work for 20 of the past 60 months, including from last July, when NASA didn't renew my employer's contract for Air Traffic Control decision support tools, until early March. I don't require a high salary, and let my recruiters know that I didn't want salary to be an issue. I was willing to work contract or direct. (3 of those 20 months I was only "underemployed" because I was driving a school bus -- I wanted to make sure I had something to fall back on once unemployment and all other funds had dried up.)

Tell me again about the shortage.

I am probably not competing directly against H1-B, but a flooded market hurts at all levels.

I have been a member of the Programmers Guild since its beginnings. I differ with many members over protectionism: I don't have a right to be subsidized in my choice of career. But to say that there is a shortage is a lie designed to keep salaries depressed. While lower prices are in the national interest, so is developing home-grown talent. If college students won't go into software (and why should they, when they've seen what an insecure career it is) there won't be domestic technical leads and middle managers in the decades to come. I love my work, but I love feeding my family more.

  Immigration laws in this country are messed up. Twenty years ago there was an amnesty for illegals with the promise of strict enforcement, now we are shocked, shocked to find out that there are too many illegals here to deport. They shouldn't be making things worse by undercutting my profession with non-immigrant visas.

Re:Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize that "Chicago area" vs. midwest is a night and day difference.
Cut your numbers in half for real places like Columbus or Indianapolis.
You live in a fantasy land that does not apply to the rest of us trying to make a decent living.

Next up: Labor-based GC 7 years?

[Anonymous Coward]

If they are going to go after the H-1B program, maybe next they should set their sights on improving the GC process from what took, in some jurisdictions, up to 7 years, to something a lot more reasonable like 7 months, or why not 7 weeks? After all, the ridiculously lengthy GC process is just another point of abuse for foreign and hence American workers. To be fair, the process has already been "streamlined", where it now takes on average something around 3-4 years total. But, that's still far too long, and leaves people vulnerable. Perhaps the programmers guild would like to see this shortened so they they decrease the abuses and increases their membership?

It never ceases to amaze me how, globally, we have virtually free movement of capital, a moderately free movement of goods, but a heavily restricted movement of people. The three major components of the economy have dramatically different levels of restrictions depending on how the given component cuts between the wealthy and the working "classes".

Who wants a lightening fast immigration system? Not the employers...that's for sure. And yet, overall, that would arguably be best for the overall economy.

"It turns out the so-called free market isn't quite so free, if you're a worker bee".

Re:Next up: Labor-based GC 7 years?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I want the wait time to be 7 seconds. You should be able to sign up on a website from anywhere in the world, and after a credit & criminal background check in your home country and a simple boolean check on the availability of the visa, get a completely binding "Yes" or "No" that can't be appealed right there and then. You then proceed to apply under a different visa, or apply again for a green card, or whatever. There is no need for a human to intervene in this process- it should be totally automatic.

Re:Next up: Labor-based GC 7 years?

[Monkeys!!!]

The problem,in this case, is that a free market gives the most efficent outcome. A free labour market would give the most efficent levels of pay, work hours and placement. The problem with that is that efficeny != fairness. Controls are put in place so that people arn't treated like (in most aspects) resources.

A free labour market de-humanises workers.

Re:Next up: Labor-based GC 7 years?

[Vicissidude]

It never ceases to amaze me how, globally, we have virtually free movement of capital, a moderately free movement of goods, but a heavily restricted movement of people.

So, you would prefer that governments treated people like money or goods? I'm sorry, but there is a good reason that we treat these things differently. I suggest you re-evaluate your statement.

Who wants a lightening fast immigration system? Not the employers...that's for sure.

What are you talking about?! The employers are the ones pushing for guestworker programs like the illegal immigration amnesty bill and H1-Bs. Microsoft came out this year stating their number one legislative goal was expansion of the number of H1-Bs. Your statement makes absolutely NO sense.

Re:Next up: Labor-based GC 7 years?

[Anonymous Coward]

I WOULD prefer that governments allow people to be JUST AS FREE as money and goods. Dehumanize?? WTF are you talking about? It dehumanizes people to not allow them to fullfill their potential regardless of where that is. It dehumanizes them to have them wait 7 years for a GC. It dehumanizes them to say: "You were born in India in a poor village, so you can't live with freedom in Boston."

I examined my statement a long time ago, and I'm happy to compete in any economic system anywhere. That's not dehumanizing, it is maximum fullfillment of my talent.

Re:Next up: Labor-based GC 7 years?

[Anonymous Coward]

The employers want an immigration system where the immigrants are hostage to a lengthy process and have restricted freedom. That is worse for the domestic worker AND the immigrant. The most fair AND efficient thing to do is allow people to compete anywhere, anytime, so long as they have followed laws and do not otherwise pose a security risk. It's not difficult to figure those things out, so it shouldn't take long to process people.

70 years ago Europeans were blowing each other to pieces, and now they have a highly unregulated labor market. We just need to expand that.

What a lot of those American workers who are insecure (not saying they all are, just that subset) don't realize is that the companies use their insecurity to construct an immigration system that is actually BETTER for the employers and WORSE for the domestic worker, by having lengthy processing times, etc. Of course, it doesn't surprise me that those workers don't understand that. After all, there probably IS a reason for their insecurity.

They took err jeerbs!

[smclean]

They took err jeeerbs!! But seriously, the perception about H1-B holders being needed to supplement the supposed lack of American training is, to me, rather insulting. Maybe I have too high an estimation of myself and my peers, but it seems to me that the US is pretty rich with technical talent. Trying to dilute the marketplace with indentured servants certainly is not going to help us get paid our due, or motivate us to earn it.

Re:They took err jeerbs!

[DigitAl56K]

Maybe America is rich with talent in most areas, but sometimes companies require specialist workers responsible for creating core technologies that can underpin an entire line of business. You want to create a new 3D engine? Hire the best in the world to make it shine brighter than the rest, then hire the best Americans you can find to build applications around it. Avionics? Same thing. Engineers? Same thing. I have to say that as an H1-B worker I feel that the whole illegal immigration/Mexico debate is creating a situation which will eventually make it open-season for criticising any form of immigration, whether it be legal and justified or not.

Re:They took err jeerbs!

[siriuskase]

The "best in the world" doesn't need to work for bargain basement wages. The "best in the world" will be comparing offers from multiple employers in multiple countries. H1B lock is only a problem for the so-so employee whose only competitive advantage is the willingness to work in whatever conditions it takes to land a job in the US.

Re:They took err jeerbs!

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats BS. Companies don't go H1B to get the "best". They go for H1B because they're cheaper and don't haggle for more pay constantly like regular Americans do. I don't want to be a prick, but America has the best and most talented people right here at home. Companies are largely not interested in quality, they want to put out whatever sells ($$$). I've been in and out of enough companies to know the scams that go on.

This isn't an immigration issue at all.

Re:They took err jeerbs!

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe that was the idea.

Re:They took err jeerbs!

[DigitAl56K]

Yes but why make the assumption that these companies are seeking H1-B workers purely due to costings?

Re:They took err jeerbs!

[Vicissidude]

Because the data shows that is exactly what companies do.

Re:They took err jeerbs!

[DigitAl56K]

That's a very broad generalization to be making.

Re:They took err jeerbs!

[Anonymous Coward]

Then look at it this way... the companies that hire H1B workers based on the philosophy you impute to them are doing you a favor, by not hiring you into a position that you'll hate. If you are correct, then it's a self-selecting mediocrity. What's not to like?

Some more info-Back slash.

[Anonymous Coward]

"But it's hard when Free Traitors keep bringing in people to compete with the people already here."

So in other words. The US is the only country that hires foreign skilled labour?

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[Marxist Hacker 42]

The US is the only country that hires foreign skilled labour?

No, I don't give a rip what other countries do or don't do. I only care about the country I was born in. The rest of the world can die in nuclear fire as far as I care. The United States in the 1930s and 1940s enacted a series of laws that in the 1950s created the first real middle class- of anywhere in the world in any era. H-1bs and other guest workers are part of the class warfare to dismantle the middle class- and that is wrong.

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[OrangeSpyderMan]

I only care about the country I was born in. The rest of the world can die in nuclear fire as far as I care.

And there was I about to feel sorry for you....

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Pity is worth nothing. Economics is the new warfare- and at the rate Bush's free trade policies are giving away our land to the Chinese, I think IndoChina will become a new empire- after which they will simply kill the people and recolonize.

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[ronfar]

But think how wonderful our part of the world will be when the rest of the world has been nuked!

o/~ Oh the weather outside is frightful, but in my fallout shelter it's delightful, and since there's no place to go, let it glow, let it glow, let it glow! o/~

Seriously, the man is crazy.

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[Reaperducer]

Sounds like the same thing the tinfoil hat crowd said about the Japanese in the 80's. You must be too young to realize that you have nothing new to say.

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Sounds like the same thing the tinfoil hat crowd said about the Japanese in the 80's. You must be too young to realize that you have nothing new to say.

If you recall, the Japanese menace was in fact a Stock market bubble combined with a bank that loaned money to too many people. China is different - they have sheer numbers and a shocking manufacturing capacity. They share one trait with China - they like Hegemony so long as it's them on top.

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[HiThere]

Historically China has not been a particularly aggressive country. They have tended to be more inward looking...rather like the US before WWI. (Though even then we were less isolationist than China has usually been.)

I see a strong possibility that China will become economically dominant. I don't really see that they are militaristically aggressive. We won't like it if China is on top, as they won't have ANY concern about how we feel. This, however, is much different from painting them as militaristic world conquerors...that's much more like Britain (and thus like the US, though we also tend towards commercial dominance).

Don't think that everybody is the same. They really aren't, and the history of people's cultures has a life of it's own. Mao was a Chinese Emperor, and the current government appears to be a mandrinate. I expect their notions of importance are very inward focused...and if you allow a general victories, then he becomes a dangerous political opponent. (Well, I'm no Chinese History scholar. That last bit was mainly from the Byzantine Empire, but I do know that China has has such concerns before.)

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[dias_flac]

I'll let the lack of firey responses clue you in on the silliness of your statements. I won't waste any more electrons.

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh please, if it came down to choosing what was good for your contry or what was good for the US, what would you choose? Please keep your pitty.

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[lonecrow]

And to avoid being a hypocrite you don't shop at Wal-Mart right?

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[Tablizer]

H-1bs and other guest workers are part of the class warfare to dismantle the middle class- and that is wrong.

You may be interested in an interesting Economist mag article on changing wealth distribution in the US:

http://www.economist.com/world/displaystory.cfm?st ory_id=7055911

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[CarpetShark]

It's OK, you can feel sorry for him when his is the last country, and he realises that it no longer functions alone :)

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[Capt James McCarthy]

I see a strong possibility that China will become economically dominant. I don't really see that they are militaristically aggressive. We won't like it if China is on top, as they won't have ANY concern about how we feel. This, however, is much different from painting them as militaristic world conquerors...that's much more like Britain (and thus like the US, though we also tend towards commercial dominance).


You are forgetting how power attracts the corruptable. They are "inward" focused for the time being that is a true statement, however, it is done for the long term plan. Very smart and logical. Take care of the internals first, then move outward. It may take a hundred years, but they will branch outward. The only reason they have not 'taken back' Tiawan (argumentative, I know) is their dependance on US purchases at this point. Once the US is no longer their primary customer, Tiawan is gone. Currently, China has a dependance on the US (large purchases) and the US has a dependance on China (cheaply manufactured goods). Also, the US business base has been moving more quickly into mainland China for obvious reasons (economic growth), but the second that the US stops purchasing goods from China, or no longer can afford to, that is when you will see large shifts in policy on both sides of the Pacific.

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[h4x0r-3l337]

If you recall, the Japanese menace was in fact a Stock market bubble combined with a bank that loaned money to too many people.

Sounds like the current housing bubble with mortgage lenders eager to lend money to people who can't afford it. I haven't yet figured out how to blame foreign workers for that though.

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[PCM2]

I only care about the country I was born in. The rest of the world can die in nuclear fire as far as I care.

Wow... I mean ... wow.

Like ... why???

How far does this philosophy of yours zoom down to? "I only care about the city block I live on. The rest of the city can die of bubonic plague for all I care..."

I may be unusual in this, but the last thing I'd ever identify with is some country ... and I'm not even in the U.S. by accident of birth. I'm here by accident of my parents moving here when I was about five. But that's all it is -- some dumb coincidence. What on earth would make anybody think they have any more entitlement than that?? Especially somebody who calls themselves a Marxist...

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Sounds like the current housing bubble with mortgage lenders eager to lend money to people who can't afford it. I haven't yet figured out how to blame foreign workers for that though.

Blame the government for allowing this sort of madness? The party's winding down, and tomorrow's hangover is going to be a doozy.

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[mrchaotica]

I haven't yet figured out how to blame foreign workers for that though.

Illegal workers from Mexico are the ones building the houses.

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[James_Aguilar]

Nationalism is historically and presently very common. Come on, you can't tell me you haven't seen it before. It's just as stupid as it was when Hitler was preaching it seventy years ago.

Oops. That's . . . whose law is it again? Whatever.

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I don't give a rip what other countries do or don't do. I only care about the country I was born in. The rest of the world can die in nuclear fire as far as I care.

My sentiments exactly.. but you're going to pay for that.

The politically correct crowd is out in force tonight.

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[easter1916]

You know, earlier you were complaining about not being able to find good work for a while... maybe this ugly, stupid attitude and your cheap-ass looking website combine to present a less than favorable impression? Just saying.

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[h4x0r-3l337]

That doesn't explain the price-explosion in the S.F. Bay Area, where most home sales appear to be existing homes, not new ones. Hmm, maybe that means *more* illegal aliens are needed...

IEEE-USA, Unions, Milton Friedman speak up

[Anonymous Coward]

The IEEE , Department for Professional Employees, AFL-CIO and researhers such as Norm Matloff speak up against the H-1B abuse.

Lots of folks speak up against it.

The hired gun lobbyist Harris Miller loses to Jim Webb. Miller ran an unaplogetic pro H-1B and pro-outsourcing campaign. Seems the voters in Virginia don't like Harris Miller's record.

Heck, even Milton Friedman calls it a subsidy.

Re:IEEE-USA, Unions, Milton Friedman speak up

[Arthur B.]

Yes Milton Friedman calls it a subsidy and rightly so. It is not normal that the businesses depend on the state to grant H1-B to some and not to others. Does this mean that he is for protectionnist mesures in the labor market? NOT AT ALL, it may simply mean that in his opinion every businness should be able to hire foreign workers with no regulation. Granting H1-B to some and not to others, that is the subsidy. It does n

It's about to hit the fan

[Joebert]

I hope everyone has their raincoats...

War on drugs strategy

[Baldrson]

The war on drugs didn't get serious until it starte confiscating the assets of drug lords.

Confiscate the assets of the businesses illegally lowering wages via violation of the law.

Re:War on drugs strategy

[SwashbucklingCowboy]

Yeah, like that would ever happen. The government doesn't do that with illegals, especially not under the Bush administration. In 1999, the United States initiated fines against 417 companies for hiring illegals. In 2004, it issued fine notices to three. Face it, businesses control this country. They believe that old saying "What's good for General Motors is good for the America."

Re:War on drugs strategy

[Baldrson]

Have you been watching what's happening in the preliminary votes for candidates for the upcoming election? Everyone who has a tight race is either harping on immigration or they are losing.

Re:War on drugs strategy

[rxrx]

But the war on drugs is a dismal failure.

Tempoary ???

[rolyatknarf]

According to the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, the new name for the Immigration and Naturalization Service, H-1B is a "nonimmigrant classification used by an alien who will be employed temporarily in a specialty occupation or as a fashion model of distinguished merit and ability." Has anyone heard of one of these employees being sent home when their temporary service is over? And does "alien" mean like E.T. or the Predator?

Huh?

[Dekortage]

I agree with you, but you said... "InfoWorld has been running articles on this H-1B situation for a while. [snip] if the H-1B situation was really as cut and dried, criminal and downright treasonous as the Programmer's Guild says, wouldn't there be some other parties chiming in on the issue?"

Other parties like, say, InfoWorld?

Re:Huh?

[PCM2]

Other parties like, say, InfoWorld?

But you'll notice that all the articles on InfoWorld reference the Programmers' Guild.

I'm really not trolling like the other guy suggests. Any time I see a single organization chiming in on an issue every. Single. Time. It's. Brought. Up ... I get suspicious. I don't doubt that outsourcing, H-1B and related issues are a problem for American workers. I just wonder what the Programmers Guild's deal is. Are you a member? Is anyone you know?

Oh and BTW -- full disclosure, I am a senior editor at InfoWorld.

Re:Huh?

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

Other parties like, say, Slashdot?

Re:Temporary ???

[rolyatknarf]

should have been "temporary" oops

that's not very internationalist of you

[Trepidity]

I thought socialism-in-one-country was no longer in fashion amongst Marxists!

Re:that's not very internationalist of you

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Heck, I'm for socialism in one NEIGHBORHOOD- violently defended.

Shhhh !!!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's too subtle a troll for the "insightful" moderators around here.

Other H1B scams

[Anonymous Coward]

On my last job I was interviewing a number of candidates who had gotten their undergraduate degree in India and were in a Masters in IT program at a certain (hint) northeastern university. I have never run into so many people who knew so little about programming. I could only conclude that the program was a scheme by the university to make money in exchange for making foreign students eligible for the H1B's reserved for foreign graduate students since scholastic standing obviously wasn't the criterium for admission.

Of course now I'm looking for work again and I don't know what the hell is going on there. It's like slipping into another dimension. I have a theory that it's because the hiring companies don't actually tell you what they're really looking for. When I was doing interviews I certainly didn't the candidates we were looking for programmers who could deal with a really suboptimal programming situation. The usual metaphors like "challenge" and "opportunity" weren't up to it. The idea candidate would have had to display a naive enthusiasm and an aptitude for being abused.

Mod Parent UP!

[DudeTheMath]

I wish I had mod points. Parent is the first responder to mention the lock-in employers have over their H1-B employees. If the employee leaves the job (voluntarily or not), they must leave the country! To get back in, they have to apply for a new visa.

An old scheme

[CaroKann]

About a decade ago, when I was fresh out of college and trying to find a programming job, one of the resources I used was the local employment office. While I was going over a list of jobs with the employment office guy, I noticed some jobs I thought I should try for and asked about them. The guy told me that I was wasting my time, that it was a dishonest company, and that I had no chance of getting hired. He explained to me how that particular company only wanted to hire an HB1 visa employee, and that they only listed the job with the employment office because the law requires that they must make an effort to hire an American first. Every American that applies for the job will be found wanting, and, their legal obligations satisified, the company will then proceed to hire an HB1 employee. I was willing to work anywhere at that time, so I tried anyway, and of course i did not get the job.

That's only one of the schemes I've encountered while looking for work. The job market can be a scummy place.

Re:An old scheme

[Anonymous Coward]

It would have been worse for you if you got the job...

Changes Nothing

[omegashenron]

Even though future employers may get a slap on the wrist for the way in which they advertise positi0ons, it will not (and can not) change their hiring policies. All this is going to do is be a waste of time for companies (ie interviewing/processing applications from unwanted candidates) and for the individual applying for the job (writing letters, e-mails, phone calls etc to a company that has no intent of hiring you).

Yes it does suck and is discriminatory, however in the land of free enterprise what can you do? Mandate they hire Americans? Easy solution for the company, off shore the jobs.

Re:Changes Nothing

[ronfar]

If they could offshore these jobs they are advertising for, they already would have. H1-Bs are only for jobs they can't offshore for some reason.

Re:Changes Nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

however in the land of free enterprise what can you do? Mandate they hire Americans? Easy solution for the company, off shore the jobs.

You are exactly correct. Which is precisely why "free enterprise" is not something we should have.

By which I mean if a company offshores American jobs, they should be forced to offshore the entire company. Specifically, revoke their corporate charter, and strip the board of their American citizenship. If companies want to go overseas, that's fine, but damn well GO -- lock, stock, and barrel.

This scheme might be achievable at some point in time after Washington DC is burning to the ground and the politicans and CEOs are hanging from lampposts. Alas.

Other parties chiming in :

[Anonymous Coward]

H-1B, L-1 and Offshoring Opposition Bookmarks : More Info.

It's okay

[/dev/trash]

The one setup by Bill Clinton?

Things you should know about H1-B

[ax_1225]

The vast majority of the companies will not hire H1-B workers. Why? Because it's a PITA especially for small and medium companies. All the legal trouble and fees and restrictions are just too much hassle for most companies.

Also it is good to know there are minimum salary levels for the H1-B workers. A company can't hire a senior programmer from outside of US and pay 20k per year. This doesn't mean that some companies might not abuse the system and try different tricks to get cheaper work force but I really belive that the majority of H1-B workers came in US because companies couldn't find qualified people.

The truth is that there aren't many good programmers out there and there is still a lot of demand for them. I see many programmers coming for interviews at the company I work for and when someone good arrives (not very often) it is very difficult to get them as they already have several offers from other companies.

BTW I am also a H1-B worker and I'm payed a competitive salary and the company also pays a lot of legal fees for my H1-B and green card. Besides that I pay income taxes and spend all my money here in the US. America has a lot to win from the H1-B program.

Re:Things you should know about H1-B

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for bringing sanity to the thread.

Welcome to the States and hope you stay as long as you want.

Re:Things you should know about H1-B

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you can't hire the good ones because you aren't willing to pay enough.

Re:Things you should know about H1-B

[Zheng Yi Quan]

The government forces employers to pay H-1B employees average to above-average wages for the position, so I don't think it's a matter of being unwilling to pay.

Re:Things you should know about H1-B

[Anonymous Coward]

>> The vast majority of the companies will not hire H1-B workers. Why? Because it's a PITA especially for small and medium companies. All the legal trouble and fees and restrictions are just too much hassle for most companies.

How so? say you are looking for someone to fill a position where the base salary is 100k; you can get easily a H1B guy doing it for 70k (the differences from my observation between H1B salaries and prevalent wages being around 30%); the H1B is valid 3 years, and can be renewed once; i.e., 30% difference over 6 years more than pays for the legal cost -- not terribly high mind you -- of applying for the visa.

This is all the more a valuable option in a booming market because your H1B workers won't have much opportunities to jump ship (yep, it is technically possible, but remember the catch of the green card as a carrot: jumping ship will mean restarting the whole application process from scratch, without giving your H1B visa any extension, which is a risk not many people are willing to take; and haven't you noticed that said GC application process just happen to take about 7 years, which happens to be exactly the maximum duration of a H1B + the extra months you get once your GC application has passed a given stage?

>> Also it is good to know there are minimum salary levels for the H1-B workers. A company can't hire a senior programmer from outside of US and pay 20k per year.

that's where you are being totally naive; of course they won't be able to get pay someone a fifth of prevalent wages, even a H1B; but you'll get away very easily with a 30% discount; there are a number of ways around this; for instance in the tailoring of the job description, and in the way 'prevalent wages' are estimated (based on numbers which are several years old, in a market where wages rise quickly)

Re:Things you should know about H1-B

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a friend who used to be on H1-B, until he got more permanent residence here. He wasn't paid poorly, but it was certainly not the going rate in the Bay Area, government requirements be damned. If he were to leave the company that sponsored his H1-B, he would have had significant risk of having to leave the country, so he was stuck at the sub-standard wage.

I love that we can bring in knowledgeable, smart people from other countries-- I believe it helps them and the U.S.. But why do it with such a restrictive H1-B program? There needs to be a program that allows more moving between jobs, and an eventual track to citizenship. The restrictions on workers drive down wages, because they give the employer extra bargaining power they shouldn't have.

Re:Things you should know about H1-B

[mjolk]

Second prior opinion. First the disclusure: I was H1B long ago and now a citizen. Never treated bad as an H1 neither had to be tied to the company who got me the GC. Can't agree more: there aren't that many good programmers out there. I now in a position that hires and most of the resumes that get my way are showing a poor candidate. The ones that are truly good (regardless of origin, and I can tell when someone is on a H1 or looking for one) are often already being hired, by the time I get them an interview or offer. In an effort to try to get talent, I also teach at a local college, and out of every class, I might have 1-2 people really interested in IT, and it is often the case that those are people who have worked in IT as developers and are trying to get new skills/certifications. Of those, that supposedly are 'experienced', maybe 1 out of 10-15 is truly half way decent, the others have very poor programming skills/habits. Yes, I can try to improve their skills and often I do try, most times I get resistance. Add to all this the current SoX, HiPPA (list you favorite regulation here) and the discipline that it is required to work under those regulations. Simply put, I have a very very small pool of tealen I can tap, result is that I have to look very hard to find people. Some of this is remediated by my company using outsourcing, which I'm trying to limit and keep the 'company people' in the interesting projects. Flame me if you wish, that doesn't change the fact that there is not much real talent out there.

Re:Things you should know about H1-B

[CreateWindowEx]

It is true that there is an ocean of lousy programmers out there. However, this does beg the question as to why there isn't more "real talent" out there. H1B programs are one way of dealing with a shortage; however without that 'easy out', I have to wonder if the situation wouldn't lead to solutions that would benefit this country more. The first effects of ending H1B would be to drive labor costs up; some of that would lead to increased outsourcing as an alternative, but as companies are beginning to find out, that isn't necessarily the win it seems to be on paper. Additionally, it would cause other effects; companies who can't find qualified people could actually hire people with talent but not the specific skill set for the job at hand and actually TRAIN THEM IN! Companies that currently depend on code monkeys willing to work tons of hours would be forced to actually restructure their work flow, and those that couldn't and are too dependent on the slave-driving mentality can go out of business or relocate elsewhere. Companies that need leads would have to pay more and hire away people who are overqualified for their current job. As a cascading effect, there would be more entry-level jobs opening up, and students would see more incentive to study programming. Perhaps you could even see talent scouts looking for something besides basketball ability in inner-city schools!

Re:Things you should know about H1-B

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I wonder if you would have a suggestion for me. I graduated with a degree in CS from Illinois (good school) and haven't been able to find a job. I have been working in a very boring job at a mortgage company, though I'm good at my job and the people like me. I have created my own project to help show my skills even and I still cannot find any job just to get some experience. I have been told I am overqualified before. I guess the bigger question is how do I find a job and the other question is how would I become a good programmer like you say? Should I go back to school and get my masters?

Mod Parent UP..

[plasmacutter]

THe language may not be so diplomatic, but the opinion is sound and the assessment is not only correct, but very astute.

this does not deserve flamebait/overrated mods and anyone who has moded it so is blatantly partisan.

Why would anyone want an H-1B worker?

[Zheng Yi Quan]

In my experience, H-1B workers aren't worth the effort. The government goes to great lengths to make sure your H-1B employee is paid commensurate with others in similar positions, and after the time and money wasted hiring lawyers and filing paperwork with the government, H-1B hiring is a fool's game. If I was legally permitted to ask whether a potential employee was on an H-1B I would never hire another such worker ever again. Why these companies are actively searching for visa workers is beyond my comprehension.

Re:Why would anyone want an H-1B worker?

[dotdevin]

"If I was legally permitted to ask whether a potential employee was on an H-1B I would never hire another such worker ever again."

My guess is you don't do any hiring or you would know that no company has to hire a worker with an H1B visa. A company decided which jobs (if any) it is willing allow H1B applicants for. If you don't want to hire any you just don't.

That said, many first do choose to claim that can't find a US worker with the needed skills and hire H1B visa holders.

Re:Why would anyone want an H-1B worker?

[Zheng Yi Quan]

Actually I do hiring, and our lawyers have advised me that for anti-discrimination reasons, I can't ask potential employees whether they are U.S. citizens--only whether they can work legally in the U.S. I don't remember if that's federal or state law or if it's just to protect us against lawsuits, but the end result is about the same. The only reason I would deliberately try to hire an H-1B worker is if that worker were some kind of superstar who would bring so much value that it would justify the legal costs and wrangling. Otherwise they're simply not worth the effort.

Re:Why would anyone want an H-1B worker?

[tompaulco]

In my experience, H-1B workers aren't worth the effort.
Many companies exclude H1B for exactly the reasons you specify. Of course, this is perfectly legal, and perfectly in keeping with the principals of the H1B system. Amazingly, they don't ever seem to have a problem finding workers from the citizen pool.
Other companies, however, have the H1B system down pat and seem to hire nothing BUT H1B. If you know the system, you can save a lot of money hiring H1Bs and threatening to send them home if they don't work 80 hour weeks.

Re:Why would anyone want an H-1B worker?

[dotdevin]

Right, you can't ask if they are a US citizen (unless that job requires it) but you can ask and require that they have the permanent legal right to work in the US.

If they don't you don't have to interview or hire them. It is up to your company if they want to interview H1Bs for a specific job or not.

Re:Why would anyone want an H-1B worker?

[mjolk]

You might not be able to ask specifically about the H1, but there are ways and 100%legal ways to ask so you can ascertain if person has H1, wants H1, etc. Not very difficult, I do it all the time. Not all H1s are worth the effort, agree; but that kind of thinking borders into assuming that no foreign talent is good; and don't agree with that

Re:Why would anyone want an H-1B worker?

[mjolk]

Correct, you can't ask if person is a citizen. There is actually a long list of things you can't specifically ask, but there is always a legal way, you might want to ask your corporate lawyers about that (of course, they might not know, plainly because not all lawyers are knowledgeable)

MarxistHacker?Racist Repug Minuteman more likely

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you fear immigrant labor? There are jobs Americans won't/can't do and the H1b visa program partly addresses this issue,at least in the tech world.America needs immigrant labor despite your nativist fears.Why is it always people of color coming here and working that upsets your types so? Mexicans Asians Africans....Do they threaten your "White Privlege"?

A Society based on "Selfishness"

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does the USA have so many laws/companies/people to support the following: 1) Immigration (Guess no other country has such easy laws or this many companies or this many CEOs and lawyers to support immigration) 2) Layoffs (Guess no other country makes it so easy to hire-n-fire) Is it because: 1) USA, by its nature, is a country of immigrants 2) USA is a society based primarily on concept of self-profit/selfishness. Flames welcome !

Re:A Society based on "Selfishness"

[MadHatter2005]

1) USA, by its nature, is a country of immigrants 2) USA is a society based primarily on concept of self-profit/selfishness. Flames welcome !

You say this like it's a bad thing. Because of our culture of self-profit/selfishness, we're the technological/economic/military powerhouse that most of the non-Marxist world envies.

Re:A Society based on "Selfishness"

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of happiness can you possibly claim by bullying the world but feeling insecure in your own home?

Re:A Society based on "Selfishness"

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh? Who says we're bullying the world and that we feel insecure?

Re:A Society based on "Selfishness"

[Anonymous Coward]

I would mod parent funny if I wasn't an anonymous coward. Either you're funny, or an ignorant cock. I'll let you decide :-)

TI's H1-B quota

[Anonymous Coward]

I am posting anonymously for obvious reasons...

A close friend at TI wishing to bring me into his team set up 2 full days of both technical and non-technical interviews. Going through the interview process everyone I encountered, all the way up through to the VP of the business unit, felt I was both technically competent and a great fit for the team.

My friend being the hiring manager had then informed me that he authorized the hire based on everyone's extremely positive feedback and had released it to HR for preparation of the offer letter.

The next day, my friend called to inform me that HR told him TI would not be able to hire me because I do not have a degree, and for them to break policy would be unfair to the H1-B candidates they had apparently had a quota for.

His entire team was dumbfounded, and the VP was prepared to attempt a few other avenues to push the hire through, but I told my friend that I was not interested in working with companies that have such insidious policies.

I hold nothing against my H1-B possessing colleagues, and in fact believe there are individuals far more capable than myself for certain research roles. However, being told that I could not have a job that I was found technically suitable for simply because there was an H1-B quota to fill for the unit has embittered me a bit.

Be not fooled my H1-B brethren. You are not wanted simply because there is a dearth of technologists in this land; no, you are the cheap labor for which the big corporations have lobbied Washington for so long.

... and in case you are wondering, I make six figures with my current employer, so there is no unemployment driven ire here.

Re:TI's H1-B quota

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only cheap labor.. but guarenteed to stay at LEAST 3 years without too much complaint....

Re:TI's H1-B quota

[Anonymous Coward]

You are not wanted simply because there is a dearth of technologists in this land; no, you are the cheap labor for which the big corporations have lobbied Washington for so long.

You may want to check the number of US as compared to foreign phds. Like it or not, phd is a qualification. You can tout about your 5 years of expereience equivalent to a phd - but you will never get a professor job (unless you are as smart as Freeman Dyson etc.). And is there a dearth of technologists in this country ? I don't know about technologists, but scientists -- oh yeah. And fix your education system before it get into the spiral of evoultion debate.

Re:TI's H1-B quota

[Anonymous Coward]

I fail to see the problem with TI. They were not only acting legally, but ethically. The only problem I see is that they tied themselves too much to their own rules.

You don't have a degree. TI policy says you need to have a degree for the position. So if they DID hire you, while legal, it WOULD be a bit of an insult to the H-1B workers that are legally required to have a degree, and are working at a company that requires a degree regardless of native/foreign status. You could have been an H-1B, a monority, a regular every day American... but if you did get in without that degree, I would perceive it as rule bending favoritism, whether or not this is true. (But it is true, since your friend was trying to get you in, regardless of how the VP liked your credentials.)

No matter how qualified you are, it's the rule, it's legal, and it's ethical. Tough titties. I don't have a degree either, and thus I've heard the same story too. I didn't necessarily have a "choice" to graduate from college, I was in a very tight and complicated situation entirely out of my control and could not afford to graduate. That said, I make good money, and my capabilities have always been welcome to the very large number of not-so-huge companies that use college degrees as a guideline, but are willing to admit that they want skilled people over any degree.

It's true that college graduates will have an easier time in the job market, on average will make more money than those without, and so on so forth. Life isn't fair, and I'm willing to live with that, because it also means that I can be the exception to the rule when it comes to the statistics of well-being.

You missed the whole point

[Dj-Zer0]

For me H1-B worker is same as your (Great x N) grand dad, (unless your a native american or non us-citizen, )

They are also here to fulfil their american dream. Many of them are with Much talent but rather than talent they also have a good attitude towards their employees, unlike some us-citizen counterparts who always in demand of high salary.

Working as a programmer is not just about salary you also need to have a passion for it, if your just being a programmer just for the money i would never want to hire you.

Re:You missed the whole point

[thatshortkid]

...unlike some us-citizen counterparts who always in demand of high salary. Working as a programmer is not just about salary you also need to have a passion for it, if your just being a programmer just for the money i would never want to hire you.

yeah, we greedy americans are such assholes trying to get as much of a wage as possible in the face of astronomical (and rising) living costs and paying down the massive debt we got ourselves into getting the education needed for the job in the first place (and that's assuming we're in perfect health, which isn't a given). all the while companies are getting away with driving down wages in a non-union industry with practices like this. our government sure isn't doing anything to protect us, even taking away protections in place if we are down on our luck and can't make every payment, every month. but we're just fattened up pigs trying to get more from the trough, right?

if you expect me to be a programmer just for the 'passion' and not compensate me enough to actually have a decent life, i would never want to work for you anyway.

Re:You missed the whole point

[Tablizer]

For me H1-B worker is same as your (Great x N) grand dad

Wrong. H1-B's are not immigrants, but "guest workers". Further, it does not scale to let everybody and their dog into this country. We have quotas and that is good enough. India is a democracy: if they don't like their economy, change it!. Don't make it my problem too.

Re:You missed the whole point

[mochan_s]

Technically, it's both immigrant and non-immigrant visa.

Student visas are non-immigrant and there are no path to becoming a US citizen with a student visa.

However, there is a clear path to a green card from the H1B visa.

Re:You missed the whole point

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

"unlike some us-citizen counterparts who always in demand of high salary"

I am not! I don't even get to the point of the process when salary is even talked about. I just need experience which I can't seem to get. I don't mind working for low pay to get that.

Re:Goods dont care if they're being messed with

[edgedmurasame]

It never ceases to amaze me how, globally, we have virtually free movement of capital, a moderately free movement of goods, but a heavily restricted movement of people. The three major components of the economy have dramatically different levels of restrictions depending on how the given component cuts between the wealthy and the working "classes".

When production runs of goods end or get moved to slave labor countries, they dont complain as they dont have any intelligence to do so. When jobs get moved to slave labor countries in the guise of moved capital, expect people to (rightfully) "raise less corn and more Hell" as there is a lot more at stake. Never mind the lightning fast immigration system- I'm for having companies that H1B include all foreign assets in taxes, be required to consider and hire (under the same specs as the H1B) all 250m+ before touching any H1B quotas, and be required to pay for all costs of every displaced worker to transition if they have to displace perfectly good workers.

As with anything in this vein, I ask - why is it that the economy goes well if the middle class is being screwed (H1B/L1/Offshoring), but a cardinal sin to have the same middle class have any upper hand on any industry? The only thing free about the "Free Market" is the ability of large companies to freely exploit the middle class.

I have seen H1B program abused with my own eyes

[Tablizer]

I have seen companies hire a mix of citizens and H1B's (I think the law requires this above a certain quantity), and then fire the citizens they didn't like much when the project ramped down a bit. It was not that the citizens sucked, it is just that they were not top performers. In theory the H1B program is not meant to replace C citizens with A visa workers, but satisfy "skill shortages".

Another time they paid the H1B's only once every six months (the full amount though). The workers couldn't do anything about it because reporting it would have their sponsor put out of business, sending them back home.

EE-Times study shows 23% wage discrepency

[Tablizer]

http://www.informationweek.com/industries/showArti cle.jhtml?articleID=189500671

"Immigrant[1] engineers with H-1B visas may be earning up to 23 percent less on average than American engineers with similar jobs, according to documents filed with the U.S. Department of Labor. Salary data from Labor Condition Applications (LCAs) lends credence to arguments that lower compensation paid to H-1B workers suppresses the wages of other electronics professionals...."

[1] H-1B's are not immigrants. This may be a mis-wording.

Re:EE-Times study shows 23% wage discrepency

[Dj-Zer0]

Your right H1-B is a non-immigrant visa, but many H1-B are trying to pursue immigration through H1-B because thats is the only resonable way you can immigate to USA, unless you have $100,000 in a bank account and want to start a company here.

Re:EE-Times study shows 23% wage discrepency

[Anonymous Coward]

An H1-B is a non-immigrant visa, which means it gives you no basis on which to immigrate or to apply for immigrant status.

However, unlike many non-immigrant visas, you can attempt immigrate while holding the visa (it's what they call a dual intent visa, so, unlike a J1 visa, you don't have to convince an immigration official that you intend to leave the US at the end of the visa period).

Changing to immigrant status (known as Adjustment of Status if the person is already in the US) has to happen by some other mechanism (e.g. filing a family-based green card petition after marrying a US citizen or LPR, or getting one's employer to file a work-based green card application).

Americans are poor workers?

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans walk in thinking they are owed a job, while foreign workers who have suffered much hardship in their life work three times harder than American workers.

Perhaps corporations are consistently disappointed in the low quality of American basic education (with such poor quality that the USA president was forced to pass the 'No Child Left Behind' Act), followed by drunken party - undergrad degrees, followed by poorly focused - industry ignorant masters degrees? All from ivory towers lacking real connections to real world job skills?

More and more you see corporate leaders that rise up through the ranks, they have 'street smarts' first, then a weekend executive MBA.

I was just listening to a person describe how they earned an advanced PhD., only to spend three years looking for work, eventually landing a tech writer job, that she could have had with just a B.S. degree.

It's high time that Universities stop simply gouging fat margins out of their students, and actually provide them with industry centered, ready to work, focused job skills.

Sure, you can still send young minds to unrelated but required electives, but the core of their educational experience has to put bread on the table, pay back student loans, and support the breeding and feeding of future students.

India, China, and other economies are growing so fast, the USA could end up a jobless 4th world nation in 20 years...

I'd love to work in the USA for a while

[Harald Paulsen]

I don't know about other people, but I live in Norway and one of my dreams is to get a H-1B visa and work in the USA for 6-24 months to improve my english and have something nice on my resumé. Then I'd return to my own wonderful country with lots of experience and some great memories.

Re:I'd love to work in the USA for a while

[rolyatknarf]

I think that is an excellent approach to gaining both career and communication skills and I wish you the best in your endeavors. Unfortunately your goals appear to be the exception rather than the rule for most temporary workers. Your intentions are to better yourself and your native country. Others remain behind and reduce the availability of good careers for both young freshly educated, and older experienced American citizens. Good luck to you Harald, and I hope your dream comes true.

Re:I'd love to work in the USA for a while

[gerilart]

Due to shortage of H-1B that may be not possible in near future. Try J-1 instead.

Freeyourself of Morrissey-Solo

[Anonymous Coward]

Have any of you ever come across the Troll 'freeyourself' on

http://www.morrissey-solo.com/ ?, just a thought.

Yours sincerely: The server.ntli.net troll from

http://www.morrissey-solo.com/

H1B circumvents labor laws

[Anonymous Coward]

US companies use H1B to circumvent labor laws in the US. It is the same thing we do with Illegal Aliens.

The problem with the H1B is solely that it is a labor force that is easily controllable. Many companies use H1B people because they will work longer hours, expect fewer raises. work weekends, etc. The people on H1B do not rock the boat because they can be fired for any reason. After they are fired they only have a certain amount of time to find another job in the US before they must go back to their country of origin. Once back in their country of origin many find it hard to get back to the US to try again.

Incidentally alot of people on H1B are nice people. They are the victims in this farce.

Re:H1B circumvents labor laws

[gerilart]

Actually, there is no grace period. Theoreticaly H1B worker who lost the job should live US immidietaly.

Re:H1B circumvents labor laws

[jack_csk]

s/live/leave/

Re:H1B circumvents labor laws

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

That's very true. There were a LOT of Indians at my last apartment complex and they all seemed friendly people. It was like a small Indian community I guess. The family above us had a jumping kid and they apologized for him, we were just amused. They also offered me dinner when their sink pipe had broken and leaked in my kitchen.

Funny how the only politicians who could help

[Anonymous Coward]

Are Republicans!
Are any Democrats in favor of restricting immigration?

One other benefit to the US you missed.

[Spluge]

While on an H1-B you pay all of the tax and social security but you do not add any of the costs. You can't claim wealthfare, you can't claim social security. Add that to the legal costs and most companies will only consider an H1B if they have no other choice. A few companies may try to get cheaper workers but for most H1-Bs it's simply a case of having no other choice if they want a skilled worker.

It's an easy problem to solve

[labcfo]

The government created a mechanism called "prevailing wage". If they actually made the prevailing wage something like 2x what a company could pay a citizen, the only time a company would hire a H1B is when the really couldn't find a citizen to work in that role. In my business - environmental chemistry - the "prevailing wage" is something around 2x what we can afford to pay a chemist. So we don't hire any H1B's. It is just too damn expensive. So if your average techie makes 80k a year, the government could make the prevailing wage $200k. Then the companies would have to choose between; a.) paying the person 2.5x what a citizen would make, b.) breaking federal laws which sends the VP's to jail for a good long time, or c.) not hiring H1B's. If there is a real talent shortage, a company would be willing (and able to pass along the cost) of an H1B. If there isn't a shortage, the government can make the economics so bad that it doesn't make sense to hire a non-citizen.

just my 2c.

Re:It's an easy problem to solve

[Anonymous Coward]

Your comment is worth exactly 2 cents, nothing more. No business sense whatsoever. As of now, American companies are struggling against Chineese/Indian companies and whith such rules they can rush to bankrupcy !!

Labor laws....

[SonicSpike]

...are not a function of the federal government. They are no where listed in Article I Section 8 of the Constitution. And according to the 10th Amendment it is within the power of the states.

The ONLY thing Congress has to do with this is on the immigration side: "To establish an uniform rule of naturalization" (Article I, Section 8, Clause 4a).

Dealing with hiring practices is not something the federal government should be involved in.

Re:Labor laws....

[Anonymous Coward]

H1B is the US position regarding foreighn workers. That definitely ISN'T state. Federal is the only real option.

Re:Labor laws....

[SonicSpike]

I agree with that, but telling American businesses who they can and can't hire* is NOT a function of the federal government and they should not be involved in this.

*as long as the worker is here legally

Re:MarxistHacker?Racist Repug Minuteman more likel

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Why do you fear immigrant labor?

Because I believe in the New Deal that Roosevelt started- and also believe Ceaser Chaverez when he said increasing the supply of labor is only to reduce the cost of labor.

There are jobs Americans won't/can't do and the H1b visa program partly addresses this issue,at least in the tech world.America needs immigrant labor despite your nativist fears.

There are no jobs an American won't do for the right price. Too bad it costs too much.

Why is it always people of color coming here and working that upsets your types so? Mexicans Asians Africans....Do they threaten your "White Privlege"?

No, I've got enough nonwhite blood in me for that. No-it's what happened to 1/8th of my family in the 1830s when a different wave of immigrants came to Oregon that I'm reminded of- they brought with them Malaria- and within 3 years, 95% of my Kalapayu cousins died. The Mexicans and Asians are just the latest wave of destructive immigration in this nation- and we get further away from that Wealthy People.

Re:Temporary ???

[SD_92104]

The H-1B visa is valid for only three years and can be extended only once (at least working for the same company - you might be able to start the whole process over from scratch for a different company). And yes, I know some people who had to leave the country as their H-1B expired.

Re:Raise less H1-B's and more Hell towards Co.'s.

[edgedmurasame]

You must just have skills that are outdated or some other deficiency holding you back because the job market is better than it has been in a LONG time.

Somehow I thought that the truth just diverged from the contents of your post at that point. Try the Midwest area of the Rust Belt (Ohio/Michigan), and you'll see things gone screwy. I'll take the "humanitarian megacorporation" days, and forced merit blinding and subsidy of universities.

It's tiring to see things being turned against the domestic populace without any regards to transitioning them in (or in the case of universities, jacking up tuition and for the first time I've seen it, a State funded school (The Ohio State University being a fine example) going closed). Unfortunately you will have to expand capacity, and if done well, you can get an admit rate that is at least the inverse of an Ivy or better.

Nativist Right-Wing Trash

[Anonymous Coward]

Does he sound like a Marxist?
American Progressives SUPPORT Immigrant labor.....legal or not.

Re:Nativist Right-Wing Trash

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Does he sound like a Marxist?

Actually, I'm a tribal distributist.

American Progressives SUPPORT Immigrant labor.....legal or not.

Ceaser Chaverez didn't. When you find out why, let me know. (hint, it has somthing to do with supporting UNIONS, which immigrant labor is against).

Well sometime it's the law that need to be fixed..

[Arthur B.]

Protectionism is bad idea, be it for good or jobs.
So you don't want Indian to come and take jobs in the US? Well think of the consequences:
  - The company will outsource to India, and Indian worked cost far less when he Lives in India than in the US.
  - If a worker offer a lower labor cost it's a gift to the american economy. The goods will be cheaper, the consumer will save money, invest in other sectors etc..
  - If someone wishes a workvisa it means he intends to work, not live on welfare. The intent to work should be a plus for immigrants not a minus...

Protectionism is the most dangerous economic fallacy ever. Come on you're the US, you are liberals, don't fall for that old interventionnist trick.

Why take the risk?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why bother with stating it requires an H1B; just put as a job requirement fluency in mandarin or hindi. It's allot safer and easier to justify legally.

Re:Why take the risk?

[edgedmurasame]

It just makes it more obvious of your endrun, especially when it's a job that's in a mainly english speaking country that has a lot of english speaking employees that are NOT doing translation work.

Re:Why take the risk?

[jack_csk]

Here are some facts:
1. Mandarin is just the spoken part of the Chinese language
2. Hindi is not the only dialect in India

Re:Why take the risk?

[Anonymous Coward]

Another fact
- Hindi is a language, not a dialect

Name of Company?

[cyberscan]

What is the name of the company, its address, phone number, and the name of the person responsbile for posting the ad? This is the type of information that should be posted. Since sex offender databases list people who might be a danger to others, these types of companies should be listed in a public database that lists those who are a danger to the SAmerican standard of living.

Re: Free markets, bah. 1890's Populism, sure!

[edgedmurasame]

Mandate they hire Americans?

Sure. Or you could have them have to interview every US worker first under realistic circumstances (read: the ones they give to H1-B's, and you'd have to demonstrate that you went through 200m+ interviews with the conditions being ones that were realistic - no "years of experience > years of skill/product existence" requirements) before even thinking of H1-B/L1's. Then have to hire by blood citizenship first, legal permament resident, and drop out all the H1-B's if the fixed quota is reached.

Re:Raise less H1-B's and more Hell towards Co.'s.

[Danga]

I am from the Midwest, I live in the Chicago area. Things are not screwy here at all, companies appear to be hiring like crazy and they are offering full benefits and high salaries.

What exactly did you mean about a OSU going closed? I went there (starting in '99) and the only problem I had was that there were too many damn people in CS who were only there because "that's were the money was". This ended up creating a huge shortage of classes that were available and I eventually got pissed off enough that I transferred out. The tuition never jumped considerably while I was there but it has been quit a while so I would be interested if thats the case.

Nothing's changed here in 20 years...

[smilindog2000]

In 1986, I got a job after graduating from Berkeley with a BS in EECS for $29,500/year. The last hire I made that I'd consider comparable was an Indian student from a state university with a masters. We hired him for $60K/year. I checked out this site for inflation rates:

http://eh.net/hmit/compare/

In short, a smart engineer with a college degree makes the same today as he did 20 years ago. Even back then, half engineers I graduated with were Indian or Chinese. It's no different today.

Sure, we engineers have to compete globally, which makes us poorer on average than doctors and lawyers. I's still rather be an engineer.

The first month after taking that first job, I was approached by communist picketers outside my workplace. They were pushing for unions, and higher wages. These Programmers Guild people are no different. It was a bad idea then, just as it is now.

Re:Nothing's changed here in 20 years...

[JustNiz]

>>They were pushing for unions, and higher wages. These Programmers Guild people are no different. It was a bad idea then, just as it is now.

Look back at American history. Unions always have been a necessary counterbalance greedy corporate bullying. Companies know one thing only; do whatever it takes to maximise profit. Without unions, the accepted standards for workers would be nonexistent. If it was left it to free market economics, you'd be working 80 hour weeks for lees than minimum wage. Just like the environment that all the H1-B applicants are trying to escape from.

Re:Nothing's changed here in 20 years...

[ThurstonMoore]

These "Communists" fought a war in WV during 1921 so you would not have a corporate slave. If it were not for these "Communists" (I believe Socialist would be a better term) we would all be working 100 hrs per week for worthless pieces of script to be spent in the company store where prices were much higher than they would be in a normal store. These so called "Communist" picketers are only exercising there right to free speech that seems to upset you. Who is the real Communist?

What kind of companie smanage to hire H1Bs anyway?

[Anonymous Coward]

H!Bs take so long to process that a company really needs an 18-month long pipeline of aplications to make it worthwhile.

My question is this: in the 18 months that it takes to get any one applicant into the counrty and started working, is it realistic that they couldnt fill the position with someone locally sourced or work out some other way to get the job done.

The 18 month lag time excludes smaller companies, and encourages companies that can have a standing requirement for H1B workers, which I believe is contrary to the intent of the legislation.

Friedman speaks ...

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.vdare.com/misc/archive00/friedman.htm

Q: Dr. Friedman should the U.S.A. open its borders to all immigrants? What is your opinion on that?

A: Unfortunately no. You cannot simultaneously have free immigration and a welfare state.

He goes on to call having classes of workers as H-1Bs as "a very undesirable proposal".

Re:Friedman speaks ...

[Arthur B.]

Sure you can't have both. Which one do you think he advocates ?

Re:Friedman speaks ...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Unfortunately no" head replied to a point blank question on open immigration. Friedman is saying his realism is overriding an obtuse idealism. He is clearly against classes of workers.

Shouldn't this be black and white?

[secolactico]

I'm not american and have never lived in America. I'm not indian (looks like they are the primary H1B workers) and I'm not a programmer.

Wether H1B are "moral" or not, the issue should be that these companies might be simply violating the letter (and spirit) of the law that implements H1B visas.

They are stating in a public way that they prefer H1B workers? No problem there since everyone is entitled to their opinions. But if they are actively refusing to hire locals in favor of H1B, they are not even exploiting a loophole. They are simply breaking a law that states that H1B are only to be hired when local talent is not available.

Inmigration (as well as labor?) authorities should have a record of H1B sponsors. Number too high? Audit them and make them justify their H1B.

Of course, politicos are usually in the pockets of corporations, so I'm guessing there's not much chance of that.

In fact, given all the brouhaha that I'm seeing on CNN about illegal aliens in the US, I'm suprised that this issue hasn't come up (I know they are H1B are legal, but mobs usually don't care).

Re:Shouldn't this be black and white?

[BlueRain]

>I'm not american and have never lived in America

The problem here is that laws aren't being enforced. From your post, it sounds like you might say 'well, all you have to do is enforce the laws and everyone will know their place'.

Sadly, it seems that the U.S. has changed from a a nation of laws to a nation of influence peddling. If it was ever the former is up for debate.

The only laws that are enforced are those that congresspeople are paid good money to enforce (usually by the wealthy and/or corporations). Sometimes laws are decided in favor of the poor, but only if the issue is played out in the press in a manipulative manner. There is an entire industry devoted to this: spin.

If you limit the power of corporations, you limit the effect money can have on the political process. The only way to stop this is to prevent corporations from having legal rights. See this article for an excellent treatment of that subject: http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=89125

silly?

[jefu]

Actually, this kind of rule has some good logic behind it. It is intended to make it difficult for a person in some position of authority from just hiring friends and relatives - by specifiying duties, required skills and publishing that, you are (in theory at least) making the job open to others. It is also a useful way to help people to move around in an organization.

That bureaucracy and bureaucrats have found a way to use this to do almost exactly what it is intended to prohibit just shows how almost every rule can somehow be perverted - given time and enough people trying.

Training Damage

[Tablizer]

The truth is that there aren't many good programmers out there and there is still a lot of demand for them.

You seem to be suggesting that companies be allowed to replace/substitute average citizen programmers with top-notch foreign guest workers. Regardless of whether this is "right" or not, it is not the premise that the H-1B program is supposed to be based on. Besides, how are average programmers going to get good with practice if all the jobs are given away to foreign workers? C-level citizens will be forever stuck at C-level because they are passed over for A-level foreign workers. Spot-shortages are necessary for people to transfer out of spot-gluts. This oppurtunity is taken away.

Another thing is that everybody has a different idea of what "best" is. Some companies value good factoring, others value fast copy-and-pasters, for example. A bigger pool allows them to pick people who fit their very specific, idiosyncratic views of what "good" is at the expense of citizens. It is like opening a new jewery store next to an existing one. Half the customers will go to the other store even if the average deals are the same.

Re:Training Damage

[D3m3rz3l]

This is fucked up. You are saying that a company should hire a C-level citizen over an A-level foreigner just because the C-level person is a citizen? that is blatantly xenophobic. Do you know that most top PhD departments in the US in science and engineering are filled with foreigners? I mean, the first argument against H1B workers is that they don't know much and are willing to work for less. When that is refuted by providing the facts (a minimum wage must be paid, H1Bs are equally qualified if not more so, and most companies don't want the PITA legal procedures that come with H1B workers), then you come up with shit like this. A c-rate worker has no one to blame but himself. He should improve his skills doing whatever he can if he expects a job. How the hell did the foreigner become A-rate? By sitting around on his ass?

Re:Training Damage

[Tablizer]

This is fucked up. You are saying that a company should hire a C-level citizen over an A-level foreigner just because the C-level person is a citizen? that is blatantly xenophobic.

The *stated* purpose of the H-1B program is *not* to replace C's with A's. If this is really what they are up to, then politicians and lobbyists have lied to the public (what a surprise).

If that is really what the plan is, then state it so. Don't disquise a performance punishment program as a "skills shortage".

Further, think of the social ramifications of unemploying all but the very top. Remember that we are still (kind of) a democracy. If you piss off 51 percent, you are screwed regardless of the reason.

Re:Training Damage

[Anonymous Coward]

Is your contention that a C-level programmer deserves a job that an A-level programmer is willing to do because the C-level programmer is a native? I'm not afraid of a little competition. Why do you hate capitalism?

Re:Training Damage

[Tablizer]

Is your contention that a C-level programmer deserves a job that an A-level programmer is willing to do because the C-level programmer is a native? I'm not afraid of a little competition. Why do you hate capitalism?

My main point was the stated *intent* of the H-1B program. It was not sold to the American people as an economic Darwin plan, but rather to "relieve skill shortages". Very few would consider the replacement of C workers with foreign A workers part of this goal.

Another issue is scaling and fairness. What if it applied to *all* careers, not just IT? If my doctors, auto-mechanics, and lawyers were all imported, then maybe my cost of living wouldn't be so high. The burden of free trade goes on IT workers but the benefits go to careers not targeted by visa workers.

Further, imagine what would happen if the competition door was opened to everybody. The concept does not scale. The country would be flooded with extreme 17-hour-day workaholic Phd's and most citizens would be displaced.

As far as "hating capitalism", it is a tool. If the tool stops working for me, I will no longer support it so easily. I would rather have a fullfilling and comfortable job than a Hummer and cheaper WalMart trinkets. The US was highly protectionist until the mid 60's, and there is no evidence that we were significantly hurt by it. Globalism tends to benefit the wealthy at the expense of others.

Re:Training Damage

[rollingcalf]

"What if it applied to *all* careers, not just IT? If my doctors, auto-mechanics, and lawyers were all imported, then maybe my cost of living wouldn't be so high. The burden of free trade goes on IT workers but the benefits go to careers not targeted by visa workers."

It does apply to nearly all careers that aren't unskilled labor. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, actuaries, and even fashion models can and have been hired with H1B visas. It just happens that companies are more willing to use H1B for programmers than for other types of jobs.

See http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/howdoi/h1b.htm

What is an H-1B?

The H-1B is a nonimmigrant classification used by an alien who will be employed temporarily in a specialty occupation or as a fashion model of distinguished merit and ability.

What is a specialty occupation?

A specialty occupation requires theoretical and practical application of a body of specialized knowledge along with at least a bachelor's degree or its equivalent. For example, architecture, engineering, mathematics, physical sciences, social sciences, medicine and health, education, business specialties, accounting, law, theology, and the arts are specialty occupations.

Re:Training Damage

[Tablizer]

It does apply to nearly all careers that aren't unskilled labor. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, actuaries, and even fashion models can and have been hired with H1B visas.

It is popular with IT partly because of all the sub-skills (specific tools) that come and go so fast, and partly because other professions have unions or trade-groups that protect themselves. Do you think doctors and lawyers are going to just sit around and let visa workers flood their career?

Re:Well sometime it's the law that need to be fixe

[Anonymous Coward]

Protectionism is the most dangerous economic fallacy ever.

Fallacy? Protectionism has economic consequences, yes, but to claim the idea is a fallacy is to say that only economic considerations have merit when making the decision.

As a former card-carrying member of the Libertarian Party I urge you to wake up as I did, and realize that there are some things in the world more important than economics.

Yes, protectionism can result in lower economic activity in a nation. But if the great mass of people in the nation have more jobs, and more stable jobs, then that alone will have great non-economic benefits for the entire society.

Stop looking at just the dollar signs. Economic choices have non-economic effects. When rulers forget this, the peasants usually remind them via the method of revolution.

Best hurt also

[Tablizer]

Let them take the low paying and boring jobs. If you are an excellent programmer you WILL be in demand and...

Even if you really are the cream of the crop, it may still affect your wages. Suppose that before visa's, the mid-range was 60k and the top is 80k.

Now, after visas flood out the middle and lower it to 50k, the bean-counters with Excel at your company will say, "why are we paying this guy 80k when the average is 50k?" Remember that those who know your work the best are not the ones who decide your final salary. Thus, lowering the middle will trickle up to you. If/when the budget pressure mounts, the highest paid are often the most heavily scrutinized.

Re:Temporary ???

[grs100]

H status (H-1B) can be held for up to 6 years. That's 6 years in time actually spent in the U.S., snot including time on vacation outside the country. So potentially over 6 years on a regular H-1B.

Then come the exceptions.

If you have started the Immigrant (Green Card) process, depending how far along you are, you can continue to extend your H-1b past 6 years in 1 or 3 year jumps indefinately.

Oh, and I see people lose their H all the time. If the employer fires them, the alien gets a one way plane ticket home.

I guess you would jump at this 'entry level' job

[hemp]

I guess $10/hr is a lot in Southern California these days:

  Location:US-CA-Riverside

Base Pay:$10.00/Hour

Other Pay: Discussed upon Employment
Employee Type: Full-Time Employee
Industry: Merchandising
Retail
Recreation
Manages Others: no

Job Type: Marketing
Req'd Education: High School
Req'd Experience: Less Than 1 Year
Req'd Travel: Negligible
Relocation Covered: No

  DESCRIPTION

We are looking for someone who can multi-task and is highly motivated to work in the marketing/E-Commerce department. You will be responsible creating and maintaining multiple websites including but not limited shopping carts & info sites.

Must be able to follow instructions and follow through. Must be willing to learn and work independently. English fluency is a must.

Company can sponsor OPT and H1-B Visa requirements.

*If you can't accept the listed base pay, please do not apply.

  REQUIREMENTS
Requirements: (Things that you must know)

- Knowledge in HTML

- Knowledge in Photoshop (or other graphics editing software)

Advantages: (Things that are a plus)

- Knowledge in PHP

- Knowledge in Flash

- Knowledge in ASP

- Knowledge in .Net

- Knowledge in MSSQL

- Knowledge in MySQL

- Ability to speak fluent Chinese

http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/Jobs/JobDet ails.aspx?IPath=ILK&jobcount=58&job_did=J8C4R35WD7 MFNJLKDPZ&sfascc=%22h1-b%22&dv=dv&jrdid=&lpage=3&s name=&CiBookMark=1&strcrit=QID%3DA6653224969589%3B st%3DA%3Buse%3DALL%3BrawWords%3D%22h1-b%22%3BCID%3 DUS%3BSID%3DALL%3BTID%3D0%3BENR%3DNO%3BDTP%3DDR3%3 BYDI%3DYES%3BIND%3DALL%3BPDQ%3DAll%3BJN%3DAll%3BPA YL%3D0%3BPAYH%3Dgt120%3BPOY%3DNO%3BETD%3DALL%3BRE% 3DALL%3BMGT%3DDC%3BSUP%3DDC%3BFRE%3D30%3BCHL%3DAL% 3BQS%3Dsid_unknown%3BSS%3DNO%3BTITL%3D0%3BJQT%3DRA D

Just give up and go to law school

[walterbyrd]

We should all be lawyers. Make 3X as much, and don't put up with any Bullsh!t.

In the future, everybody in the USA will earn their living suing one another.

Re:Just give up and go to law school

[Tablizer]

In the future, everybody in the USA will earn their living suing one another.

I think we are doing this now. Look at all the silly IP laws that we've managed to force other countries into. Our comparative advantage is manipulation, not tech. Our corporate culture offers the best training ground for manipulation.

Re:Just give up and go to law school

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen brother...

We need litigation reform badly... but since I don't expect Congress will figure that out anytime soon, I intend to cash in...

Re:Well sometime it's the law that need to be fixe

[Arthur B.]

A lost soul :) I grew up in a social-democrate country where liberal is used as an insult by all politic tendencies. Not very fun you know. Our liberal issues go faaar beyond questionning a federal-id.

Now s=ure there are things more important than economics, such as freedom.... but how do you define economics? YOU have to stop thinking in term of the $, economic is about managing the well being of people. Their utility doesn't necesseraly reflect money. So when something it good for the economy, it means it's good for the common well being.

We want the same thing, more jobs, stable jobs; but do I think protectionism is the way to do that? Certainly not.

You do realize that all you are going to cause by trying to "protect" the jobs is outsourcing... so are you going to say, we also need to prevent companies from outsourcing... well the businesses will simply leave the country... aha you add, but we will prevent them from doing that. And very soon you are on the way to more and more state control and a dangerous spiral to serfdom.

The money you save consummers when you open your borders to goods and labors is going to be invested in other sectors, probably more advanced technologies. Now I agree with you on one thing, labor is not completely mobile and you can't say that the IT worker is going tomorrow to go in a completly different sector... but an affluence of cheap IT workers will also probably make this same sector grow extremly fast thus requiring more workers with advanced skills.... It is definitely true that a complete stop of protectionism - tomorrow - would cause a very harsh transition, it's like a battery, the systems have been separated so long that there is a very high difference. If you don't want a flood carefully open your gates, once it's done you have the benefits without the risk to the stability of the job market.

It's whether wether nor weather

[Anonymous Coward]

How hard can it be it write "whether" correctly? There seems to be no Slashdotter capable of spelling this word correctly. :/

How about this job?

[Anonymous Coward]

ThoughtWorks will also apply for Greencards and H1-B transfers for employees.

http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/Jobs/JobDet ails.aspx?IPath=ILK&jobcount=59&job_did=J8G4CN6V83 98NT1YF40&sfascc=%22h1-b%22&dv=dv&jrdid=&lpage=3&s name=&CiBookMark=2&strcrit=QID%3DA6653224969589%3B st%3DA%3Buse%3DALL%3BrawWords%3D%22h1-b%22%3BCID%3 DUS%3BSID%3D%3F%3BTID%3D0%3BENR%3DNO%3BDTP%3DDR3%3 BYDI%3DYES%3BIND%3DALL%3BPDQ%3DAll%3BJN%3DAll%3BPA YL%3D0%3BPAYH%3DGT120%3BPOY%3DNO%3BETD%3DALL%3BRE% 3DALL%3BMGT%3DDC%3BSUP%3DDC%3BFRE%3D30%3BCHL%3DAL% 3BQS%3DSID_UNKNOWN%3BSS%3DNO%3BTITL%3D0%3BJQT%3DRA D

Re:Raise less H1-B's and more Hell towards Co.'s.

[NormalVisual]

I guess I've been really fortunate - since I started coding professionally in 1989, I've not really had any time that I was unemployed where I didn't choose to take some time off. The vast majority of job changes for me have been "last day at old place on Friday, first day at new place on Monday". The last time that it wasn't was more than eight years ago. My last job change was this past April, and it was a total of about three weeks from the time I sent the resume to the time I was turning in notice at my then-current employer. The new place also offered me $10K/year more than what I was asking for [shrug]. Of course I didn't want to be rude and argue with them. :-)

I'm not disputing that some folks have problems, though. I've not personally experienced any real difficulty, but I also know a lot of comparably qualified people that seem to have a hard time finding work. I don't get it.

I like progress

[A nonymous Coward]

I like new toys, new science, new ideas. When the Chinese and Indians get going, they will have, what, 5 times the USA and EU population? I like that. I like all that many more smart people with their different and new ways of thinking, that many more brains working to make new devices. Look at it this way. It only takes a fixed number of people to design cell phones. Manufacture and distribution does require more people if you want to make and deliver more, but even that scales somewhat. If ten times the population wants ten times as many cell phones as nowdays, there will be a lot of smart people who will be designing something other than cell phones or any other current device.

I like the idea that they will be designing brand new things that we can't even dream of now. I want everyone on the earth to be well off and using their brains, rather than mired in poverty and barely scraping by. I want as many people as possible thinking about the future.

Re:Well sometime it's the law that need to be fixe

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize that all you are going to cause by trying to "protect" the jobs is outsourcing... so are you going to say, we also need to prevent companies from outsourcing... well the businesses will simply leave the country... aha you add, but we will prevent them from doing that. And very soon you are on the way to more and more state control and a dangerous spiral to serfdom.

Yes, if businesses are prevented from outsourcing, they will want to leave the country. But you can prevent that -- not by slapping the CEO in chains and goosestepping him off to a concentration camp, but by simply not letting that business import their products or services back into this country.

Outsourcing is profitable now because a business can sell to this market, but not hire people from this same market. Simply force (yes, force!) businesses that sell here, to hire here as well. (and no importing slave labor immigrants, either)

The business is always free to leave the country if selling to the country is no longer what it desires to do. Or if it can't make a profit under those rules, then it goes out of business -- and instead of just the worker bees losing their jobs, all the managers do as well.

If that still doesn't appeal to you, please remember that large numbers of unemployed people gathered together have not historically given much respect to the concept of non-initiation of force.

it's just not true...

[YesIAmAScript]

I've worked in the industry for quite some time now. Since 1991.

And it is very common to have many positions open you simply cannot fill. In the late 1990s it was even more true.

I remember at that time, see that one department, which was triple the size of most others fit onto a half-floor just like all the other departments. I asked the pertinent people and found that they could fit in that space because 2/3rds of their positions were unfilled.

I was not a hiring manager at the time, but I can say now that it very likely goes like this. You open a position. You get a lot of candidates. You interview the candidates and find none are suitable. You don't even talk money seriously with a candidate until after they pass the interview anyway. And then, the hiring manager doesn't care much anyway becuase it's not like he's paying out of his own pocket.

So, you never rejected anyone due to salary, and yet you still can't find anyone. It's natural then to say "if only we had a larger pool of candidates to draw from". And being able to draw from foreigners can help with this.

It's tough being picky about your candidates, but not being picky creates more problems in the long run.

Re:it's just not true...

[ClosedSource]

The fact is for most companies a significant lack of workers would result in the company shutting down due to an inability to perform the company's function. If the need is critical, you simply pick a qualified candidate and you don't worry about subjective criteria such as "suitability". Some companies try to convince themselves that they are special by rejecting qualified candidates. At the end of the process, the person who is finally hired is about as effective as the ones who weren't.

Re:it's just not true...

[Anonymous Coward]

Your example seems contrived. Why should the pool of foreign workers be more likely to include a candidate more suitable than the pool of US workers?

Auction them off

[cfulmer]

So, industry claims that H1-B visas are needed because there are some skills which are just not available in the U.S. job market. The other side is that (1) yes, those skills are; and (2) even if they weren't, companies could hire Americans and train them.

The visas are obviously in high demand -- they disappear in an astonishingly short time after they become available every year.

IMO, the best way to approach this is to auction the H1-B visas off: If you have a position that you need filled, bid for an H1-B visa. If somebody else needs it more, they'll bid more and they'll win. Otherwise, if you need it more, you'll bid more and win.

The interesting thing is the feedback mechanism -- if the visas are going for $200,000 each, that's a pretty good indication that the job isn't availble in the US and it's really hard to train Americans to do it. But, on the other hand, if companies are just trying to save a few bucks, then the visas will go for a lot less, maybe $20,000. That would indicate that there are too many H1-B visas, and companies are just using them to get cheap labor. If the price is too high, that would indicate the need to raise the cap. Otherwise, it would indicate a need to lower it.+

Re:Auction them off

[muhan]

This auction approach to the problem of H1B's is interesting. However, one facet you're not taking into account are people who get H1B's as a method to legally stay in the U.S. without any intention of working. I indirectly know a lot of wealthy people who are completely non-technical who pay a company to issue them an H1B visa so they can legally stay in the U.S. They don't work at all for the companies and the companies have no need for the employee, the company simply does it as a source of income. These wealthy people would inflate the auction price of H1B visas by telling their "employer" to bid as high as it takes to get the Visa since the "employee" would pay for it.

Re:Auction them off

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason why the visas disappear so fast is that the bodyshops and MNCs pounce on them by filing for them, hundreds and even thousands at a time, the minute they become available.

Only works in theory

[Rob Nance]

Your thoughts are good in theory, but you can't have your cake and eat it too, or cell phone as it would be. Nobody will be able to afford any of these wonderful devices in the world you describe, including yourself.

More sleaze in the marketplace...

[Anonymous Coward]

I was out of work for a few months back in late 2002...I was looking for a job for about 9 months (pretty steady looking too...and I was certainly qualified for most that I applied for)...now, unemployment was supposed to run for 6 months, but they extended it to 9 months for the period I was out of work (it was right after most of the dot-bombs closed up shop)...but almost 9 months to the day after I started drawing unemployment, I got offered a job...I mentioned this to the unemployment office later, and they told me that many companies would wait until you were at the end of your unemployment compensation to hire you (figuring that you *HAVE* to take it)...yea, noone told me about this...I would have certainly waited to apply for some of those nicer jobs...

Well, I left there about 6 months later, after being offered a better job (which I had interviewed for about 9 months earlier)...but the point remains, even if the company hires americans, they may still be looking to screw you...

Another trick I was told from one of my green card holding friends...if the job states "NO H1Bs" or "Must be US citizen"...they will probably never hire an american citizen for the position...they have a person in mind for the job and are just fulfilling their legal requirements...I know this is done, because during my time as a contractor, I have had similar job requirements written with me in mind...some companies have requirements that the job is filled internaly be fore hiring a contractor...it's not nice, it's not even fair, but it happens...

PG appears a bit Racist, in Some Spots...

[Anonymous Coward]

On the page at:

    http://www.programmersguild.org/docs/lowest_paying _2004.htm

we find:

    Cambridge Resource Group, Inc.

    All five USA Board of Directors have Indian names, and
    they have two sites in India, vs one site in the US

I -know- racism can be worse than simply focusing on the name(s)... eg:

* Some Snapshots from [South] Australia:

1. In South Australia, private religious schools OPENLY advertise for:

- book-keeping staff who are "church-going Christians"
    (the application form asks for the signature of applicants
    minister or priest!)

- Teachers (of IT, Maths, Science, etc.) who are "practicing Christians"

- a Principal who is "an active member of a Catholic Eucharistic Community"
    (that requirement was listed -before- all other requirements)

2. Wait, there's more... this time from the State School system:

- In SA, at a Teacher's Union sponsored "Training" weekend, the trainer
    for the first session of the weekend all participants to tell the group
    what their religious affliation was... while brandishing the largest
    cross (on a neck-chain) I've seen for years! (This was the Union that
    represents -Public- School teachers in South Australia!)

(Non-Christian religious schools' employment ad's seem to focus on
teaching & subject-matter qualifications, not the teacher's after-
hours religious affilications and/or activities, or lack thereof.)
Even elsewhere in the recruitment to SA Gov't jobs, we have experienced:

- dubious questions at an interview for a Public Sector position

    I was asked to state my religious affiliation / preference.

3. Beyond SA, are more signs of the non-acceptance of non-religious:

Recently, Australia's Prime Minister is quoted as describing Australia
as the world's "most tolerant country" - suggesting we only "tolerate"
people with differences; a long stretch from accepting...

---

[ What Indian names? Chief Sitting Bull maybe? ] ;-)

Re:Raise less H1-B's and more Hell towards Co.'s.

[bladesjester]

What I love have been the companies that have interviewed me and have either been jerking me around (many of them) or, in one case, quite literally downright verbally abusive.

That is something that I do not care to put up with and, in the case of the abusive one, I didn't put up with it. The bad part was that interview was three hours away, so I not only wasted the time, but the travel costs.

Re:Temporary ???

[gerilart]

This is not stated correctly. GC needs to be in process for one year or immigration petition must be approved in order to get extensions beyond 6 years.

"Programmer's Guild" is inept

[Anonymous Coward]

They can't write proper HTML to save their jobs. Can you say, “protectionism”?

H1Bs don't...

[cpatil]

jump across American borders or tunnels nor evade IRS Taxes and enroll their kids for free education, but their contribution to Social Security is in Billions. They don't get FREE medical benefits, they have to pay for it. Internet Bloggers and News Networks must look at real problems America is facing rather than beating empty drums ;-)

Re:H1Bs don't...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not being able to get a job because an H1B is filling it *is* a real problem in America, Mr. Indian.

Re:Raise less H1-B's and more Hell towards Co.'s.

[NormalVisual]

What I love have been the companies that have interviewed me and have either been jerking me around (many of them) or, in one case, quite literally downright verbally abusive.

I refuse to put up with it, and if someone is verbally abusive to me I will not hesitate to quickly and loudly put them in their place before leaving immediately afterwards.

I had one company that I had *really* wanted to work at, and after a combination of five phone and in-person interviews, they said they wanted me to come in and interview yet again. I got fed up with it and told them, "thanks, but no - you have my resume and you've already talked to me enough to be able to determine whether you want me or not. I'm not spending my own money just to come down and talk to every manager that says he wants to speak to me." Two weeks later they offered me a job, but I'd already taken something with another company and I told them I wouldn't have accepted even if I hadn't. If they were going to screw with candidates like that, I figured nothing would be keeping them from doing the same once I was an employee.

Restrict H1Bs to people with US degrees

[yahyamf]

Why not restrict H1Bs to students graduating from US universities. There are thousands of them, and they're already familiar with the culture and have similar training as Americans. They're also unlikely to work for significantly lower pay. Currently many international students head back to their home countries right after graduation, so the US gets no benefit of their education.

Re:Restrict H1Bs to people with US degrees

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not restrict H1Bs to students graduating from US universities. There are thousands of them, and they're already familiar with the culture and have similar training as Americans. They're also unlikely to work for significantly lower pay. Currently many international students head back to their home countries right after graduation, so the US gets no benefit of their education.

Except for the fact that those students paid a lot of money to study at a US university...

Too Bad

[Kiaser Wilhelm II]

If standing up for *our* nation and *our* selves is racist, then so be it. Our family has been in America for several generations. I know people who have roots here even longer than I. I will, not for one minute, treat someone who hops on a boat or plane here to get a cheap job because its better than their 3rd world drudgery as an equal. It has nothing to do with race, it has to do with the fact that those of us here who have REAL ROOTS here should protect what we have helped to build.

Re:Too Bad

[91degrees]

So you've been born into a more priviledged lifestyle and as a result, you consider yourself superior to someone who is willing to make the huge step of learning a language and moving to a different country to improve their life.

Re:Too Bad

[Anonymous Coward]

You do sound a like a complete ass. If you were really smart you will look at the history of US and figure what does it really mean your family has roots here for several generation. What have you done in this ? Your grand grand grand father came here centuries ago (probably killed some indians as well to get going). So was he justified ? And so yes you are also some stranger from europe etc .. just a litter older. You don't own this country.

And what makes you special that you are born in US ? Are you more smarter ? Does it make it yours ? And you think you are protecting country by doing this. Read some history. India and China were great civilizations and were later essentially destroyed. See what mistakes they did at the highest point - may be there is something to learn.

And my family has been in America for several generations too .. big deal. I don't hang that around my neck.

Re:Too Bad

[bmajik]

The only people that have been in the US for more than about 30 generations are laregly confined to "reservations", which are hotbeds of crime, inebriation, and a dead-end life.

(at least, that's my impression from visiting a few reservations, including the tribe of which my great grandmother was 100% full blooded and where I probably have a few distant relatives...)

The idea that you are "more american" because your family has been here for "several generations" is dubious. How many generations must have been born here for you to be a "real American" ?

In my opinion, anyone that is willing to follow the laws of this country should be able to become a citizen, easily and cheaply. If you think your birth pedigree is of relevance in what your rights should be, you are hardly living in the spirt of the principles on which America was founded.. perhaps you'd be happier in colonial/monarchial Europe of a few hundred years ago, or India under the caste system?

The immigration policy of this country should be guided by the following principle: "If you are willing to come here legally and comply with our laws, stay as long as you like"

Re:Too Bad

[Fulcrum of Evil]

So you've been born into a more priviledged lifestyle and as a result, you consider yourself superior to someone who is willing to make the huge step of learning a language and moving to a different country to improve their life.

No, we simply put our own interests first. You'll find that this is common among people who work for a living.

Re:Too Bad

[Fulcrum of Evil]

In my opinion, anyone that is willing to follow the laws of this country should be able to become a citizen, easily and cheaply.

Yeah right. What happens when 200M hopeful foreigners show up to be freshly minted as citizens? Any idea what that'll do to our infrastructure? We need some stability and time to adjust. The US is a cool place in part because of what our forefathers did. Why don't those hopeful throngs try fixing their own country?

The immigration policy of this country should be guided by the following principle: "If you are willing to come here legally and comply with our laws, stay as long as you like"

It's more like this: if you have skills we need, then come on in. Otherwise, get in line.

my favorite example

[www.sorehands.com]

One of my favorite examples is in 1988. I was called by a recruiter looking for someone with at least 10 years of PC DOS experience. Giving impossible requirements and having a recruiter unable to fill it is another trick.

Re:my favorite example

[Tablizer]

One of my favorite examples is in 1988. I was called by a recruiter looking for someone with at least 10 years of PC DOS experience. Giving impossible requirements and having a recruiter unable to fill it is another trick.

I have seen "5 years of Java" in 2000. I think only Gosling would qualify. Usually this is a sign that a company is riding the Clueless Express.

I'm really tired of hearing this argument

[Afroblanco]

- If a worker offer a lower labor cost it's a gift to the american economy. The goods will be cheaper, the consumer will save money, invest in other sectors etc..

Yes, but what good are "cheap goods" when you don't have any money to buy them with?

Re:I'm really tired of hearing this argument

[808140]

The only person who doesn't have money to buy these cheaper goods are people in the affected industry. These people comprise a laughably small percentage of America's economy. So yeah, some industry gets un-protected and consequently the price of the goods produced by that industry fall to the world price. This of course reduces local supply, which had previously been artificially inflated by the higher price guaranteed by the protectionist economy. Since the "local supply" is a bunch of local companies, the people working for those local companies get the axe. It's true.

But how were those workers getting paid in the first place? Their salaries were siphoned from the US consumer, who was effectively told to pay a higher price than everyone else in the world for an equivalent good or service just because of the government's protectionist policies.

Since everyone here is so concerned about IT, let's move away from that for a moment and look at sugar. Sugar is a protected commodity in the US, and American consumers pay a higher price for sugar than the prevailing world price as result of that -- the amount of extra money paid by consumers per year is several billion dollars. This amounts to you losing 50 or so dollars of your hard-earned income every year to prop up an industry comprised mostly of suppliers that would be unable to compete in the global marketplace.

Now, 50 dollars per person isn't much... not enough to get the laws repealed. But consider: the essential issue here is that the suppliers of sugar in the US only supply as much as they do because of the inflated price (law of supply), and would supply less if there were no protectionism (with the remainder of local demand being satisfied by international suppliers that are currently "protected" out of the US market place).

If this policy were overturned today, everyone in the US would have more spending money, except for the sugar people -- lots of them would be out of a job. You can bet they'd complain about that, but would you? You're not in sugar, after all, and sugar is hardly an essential sector for the US. You'd have more money to spend as a result of them losing their jobs.

What you need to realize here is that most people in the US are not in IT, and they do not care about your job or your job security. If they are paying higher prices for your services than your international competitors, they are losing money. This means they don't have extra spending power to buy the things they want.

So your little response: "Yes, but what good are 'cheap goods' when you don't have any money to buy them with?" is silly, because if all of IT gets outsourced tomorrow and cheaper prices ensue, everyone in the US that doesn't work in IT (most of the US) will have more money to buy cheaper goods.

Just like sugar.

Do you understand how this reasoning works?

Your little retort is a non-starter, unless somehow everything in the US were outsourced in favor of cheaper international producers. But that's not possible, for a number of reasons. The most obvious is specialisation: the US does some things better (read: cheaper) than other places do, and these sectors will never be shipped overseas, because to do so would cost more, not less. The second reason is foreign exchange markets. To buy a good shipped overseas, you must first obtain the local currency. So if you want to buy goods produced in Mexico, for example, you must use dollars to buy pesos, and the increased demand in pesos will drive the value of the peso up relative to the dollar, making Mexican goods more expensive for American consumers. The more this occurs, the more dependence there is on Mexican products, the more expensive those products become, until -- get this -- it becomes cheaper to just produce them locally.

And you can bet your ass that in an unregulated market, someone somewhere is going to try to take advantage of that to make money. Ergo, a factory opens up in the US as soon as that happens.

by the way...

[plasmacutter]

Your posts do nothing but make accusations.

Much like republican mouthpieces, you sit there and accuse me of doing what you do.

In your posts you have levelled numerous ad hominem attacks; you have called me uneducated and emotionally unstable for astutely pointing out your habbits, accused me of lacking knowledge in economics, and called my points specious without so much as a single coherent counterpoint on which to base your assertions other than attacks on my person rather than my point.

you practice what is best called pseudointellectualism, and from now on whenever I see a post of yours spewing malinformed ideology I will debunk it.

I've taken the liberty of adding you to my foes list to make sure your posts catch my attention. Pseudointellectuals and sophists are the enemy of justice in this world and I simply will not have it so boldly bandied about.

MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

best idea I've read of 120 comments!

If you dont like it.....

[Anonymous Coward]

.. change job... IT is not worth the headaches these days. Let them have the jobs. I want out of IT. Managers get paid MORE and their base pay starts where IT ends. The end game for work is MONEY earning. Do the least effort job for the most money. Im leaving the "technical" field because its just not worth the waste of life it is. The IT market is no longer "technical" anyway and its oversaturated with "know it alls". You are very welcome to have my software job :) I would rather be out cutting grass in nice weather or something else. Im tired of the "superstar" developer egomainiac, which is what you see on these posts. "Im so great but they hired this " blah blah. Please spare us your ego.

Re:If you dont like it.....

[Tablizer]

You are very welcome to have my software job....I would rather be out cutting grass in nice weather or something else.

Seems right out of Office Space movie

Re:If you dont like it.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you want to sit behing a screen all your life? :) Yes I actually feel like that guy in Office Space and the carpets here give me damn static shocks too I DONT GIVE A RATS ASS ABOUT MY COMPANIES PRODUCT AND WORK. - Its a big company that we all love here on slashdot :)

Re:If you dont like it.....

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

I worked at a mortgage company and that WAS Office Space, though it wasn't even related to my degree or interests so I lost on both counts.

Unions counter Corporate Bribes

[Tablizer]

The first month after taking that first job, I was approached by communist picketers outside my workplace. They were pushing for unions, and higher wages. These Programmers Guild people are no different. It was a bad idea then, just as it is now.

Right now big companies have Congress by the balls. That is not capitalism, but political bribary. We need to balance that out with something, and unions or trade groups (PACs) are the only way I know of. As voters we don't have the granularity of control to pick and choose various smaller issues. This allows a lot of leeway for corporate influence to take over the political decision process.

Thus, unions are not communists, just balancers. Sure, they got too powerful in the 40's and 50's, but the pendulum has swung to Inc's since.

Re:Unions counter Corporate Bribes

[smilindog2000]

I've got no problem with unions. They've helped keep corporations honest and done a lot of good for workers in America. We just don't need a union for programmers (but that's a different discussion).

I wasn't saying that old group back in 1986 were like communists... they actually were! They handed out union literature and communist literature at the same time! I also don't have any problem with communism when practiced voluntarily, rather than forced on people.

Re:Unions counter Corporate Bribes

[ThurstonMoore]

I've got no problem with unions. They've helped keep corporations honest and done a lot of good for workers in America. We just don't need a union for programmers (but that's a different discussion).

I disagree, this has everything to do with the discussion, because the H1-B holders are in fact driving down wages.

I wasn't saying that old group back in 1986 were like communists... they actually were! They handed out union literature and communist literature at the same time! I also don't have any problem with communism when practiced voluntarily, rather than forced on people.

Is that your opinion or did this literature actually use the word Communism or any of its derivatives?

Re:Unions counter Corporate Bribes

[smilindog2000]

It's been 20 years, so I don't remember the exact wording, but yes, it was clearly a group of self-proclaimed communists in California trying to help grow unions and sympathy for their cause. They waited at the stop sign on Semiconductor Drive at the entrance to National Semiconductor, and handed out literature. But hey, California is still California! Plenty of fruits and nuts, including me! Well, as for whether or not we programmers should have a union... it's not the H1-B's that worry me. It's global competition. We might be able to force our wages even higher (the average programmer in the US now makes almost $100K), but that will only increase the off-shoring rates. I'd rather keep those jobs here, for a lot of reasons, not just the programmers themselves.

Re:Unions counter Corporate Bribes

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

"the average programmer in the US now makes almost $100K"

That can hardly be true because lots of us don't have jobs. I'd work for 30K or whatever is enough to pay for living so I could get some experience. I'm stuck.

Re:Unions counter Corporate Bribes

[smilindog2000]

I wont dispute that. I will quote EETimes: From a compensation perspective, that stats looks pretty good. The mean salary for U.S.-based engineers participating in this year's survey is $99,00." Of course, that's only the guys who have jobs in the field, and I have seen many good people leave. For more info, check out:

http://www.eet.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml ;jsessionid=BIVESULJCG5LMQSNDLPSKHSCJUNN2JVN?artic leID=169400754&pgno=2

I know it doesn't feel like it, but trust me... this is a "boom" time, and a "bust" time is around the corner. In my experience, this has always been a tough industry.

Re:Unions counter Corporate Bribes

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

I guess the link is too long, it doesn't seem to work.

Hmm, so what do I do? go back to school just in time to graduate at the start of a new bust time, all over again hehe. It doesn't sound good for what I want to do I guess. Well.. gotta stay optimistic.

Re:Unions counter Corporate Bribes

[smilindog2000]

Oops... this one works.

http://www.eet.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?a rticleID=169400754

Boy, I hope you didn'g graduate in 2002 or 2003. Those years, I got hundreds of unsolicited resumes each week from people who were plenty good, but there just weren't any jobs. That's when corporate America started sending the new programming jobs overseas in earnest. Now, it just a fad. Some of it make sense, the rest is just CEOs listening to their boards and investors who don't understand how software development works. They seem to think is just like making any of that stuff WalMart sells.

Are you in Silicon Valley? Most of the people I know there who had trouble in 2002-2003 were able to find work in 2004-2005.

Minuteman

[dragisak]

Programmer's Guild. Sounds like Minutemen for geeks.

How do you figure?

[A nonymous Coward]

What cake are you referring to? Why should more people doing more and better work make the world a poorer place?

Re:How do you figure?

[samkass]

>

Not the whole world, just America.

Re:How do you figure?

[Rob Nance]

Do you think that the people making the electronic gadgets we all love can afford them? I'd venture to guess somewhere near 100% of them can't. The world economy is much more complex than that, just leveling it all out wouldn't provide the future you dream of. It would be a world of average. I am not saying we deserve to be economically prosperous in the US, but we are, and we (and other economically prosperous countries) drive the demand for "frivolous products" like gadgets.

Of course they prefer H1B

[billcopc]

I just happen to live in a very broadly multicultural area that also just happens to be fairly dense in high-tech and medium-tech businesses. I had a fellow from India explain some of this stuff to me. Up here people typically just obtain their citizenship and apply for work like everyone else, on equal terms. In the states where he had previously worked as well as many of his college mates, the attitude is to fly people over on a work visa, then the employers use that non-resident status as a cattle prod. He told me he was often afraid of being fired and exiled back to India for no valid reason, other than the company trying to pressure him into working longer hours. The work visa then becomes the slave driver's whip.

So the guy moved up north to the land of beavers, poutine and warm busty women. Sure, it took a little work to get the papers done but now he's a permanent citizen just like me, and he works the same job, gets the same pay, enjoys the same benefits and pays the same ridiculously high taxes as everyone else. We don't throw around many work visas because frankly, if you're going to work in Canada, you might as well live here too and keep the money recirculating (and re-taxing) in our system.

You can't win

[Anonymous Coward]

You cannot force business owners to conduct their business any differently than they want to. They will just get more creative with ways around public complaints. The almighty bottom-line drives them to no end. We will be living in America the New Third World Country within only a couple of decades, mark my words.

Labor is anti-union

[Anonymous Coward]

"(hint, it has somthing to do with supporting UNIONS, which immigrant labor is against)."

Not surprising. Native labor strongly opposes unions, too. Only about 8% or so want to even be in one.

Re:An old scheme - Part Deux

[gabrieltss]

This scheme is typcial I saw this ALL OVER Denver, CO. You also see it rampant in the back of all the IT trade magazines. All those jobs yo usee listed are specifically targeted at H1-B's not AMERICANS. Granted I have worked with more H1-B people than I can count on my fingers and toes. Many were useless lied like hell on their resumes and didn't know the skills they were hired for. But, there also were some that knew their stuff and there are some I have become friends with. The problem is there is no level playing field. What everyone doens't understand is this is ALL about globalization. As Bush said "The New World Order". It's all about tearing down the borders of countries. Look at the "amnesty" program for the Illigal immagrants from mexico. The say they do the jobs ameircans don't want to do. Really? Those will be the only jobs we have left when corporations outsource all the really good jobs for $hit pay. But we as Americans won't be able to do those jobs because they will already be taken by people who will work for pennies.

Here is my suggestion:

All the hispanics from mexico should do something about their country! You don't like the wages you get paid do something about it! Fight for it in YOUR country! We Americans paid for our freedoms and rights in OUR BLOOD! We fought our American Revolution for it! The Mexican people might want to think about their own Revlolution to change their corrupt country!

The same goes for people in other countries. If you don't like the jobs/wages in your country DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT - Fight for it in YOUR country.

It is true we Americans need to get off of our lazy @$$E$ and take on our own government AGAIN because they have gotten so far out of control it's not funny. We need to do it NOW or we won't have any rights left to fight them with. Our politicians are just as corrupt as those in many other countries. Fortunately our founding fathers had insight enough to lay down some rights that give us the power to LEGALLY fight for our rights. But how many Americans don't? Many! The two party system is outdated we need more third parties, this is the ONLY way we will be able to send the message we are SICK AND TIRED of the status quo! You can't just "throw the bums out" without third parties. Who will replace the current BUMS? Yup more bums - Democrats and Republicans - they are all bad!

Think about this long and hard folks the powers that be don't give a raging rats @$$ about you they only care about money and power. Be it be the poloticians or the corporations.

Border traffic

[Baldrson]

It's rather difficult to control the flow of drugs across the border when you aren't controlling the flow of people across the border.

Obligatory South Park Quote

[Anonymous Coward]

"They took our jobs!"

demographics/age/cost of living

[Anonymous Coward]

It could be the "allure" of living in a major metro area or being forced to commute to same is wearing thin on people. For much younger folks it might still be OK,off-work they are closer to the nightlife and action, etc., but once people are a little older and settled in they want a real home with a real yard for a real family life.

Instead of trying to move labor to you, why not try moving the business out where the costs of living are significantly cheaper and people aren't as reluctant to do the drive to work. You might find slightly older and more qualified applicants then.

Some Myths About H1B

[Naum]

1. H1B candidates are needed because there are a shortage of American high tech professionals. No, incorrect, H1B has been used to displace American workers and it has undercut median wage for programmers and engineers. I've witnessed firsthand at multiple companies the saga of staff replacement with a mix of offshore programmers/improted NIV programmers. I've seen company programs that recruited and promoted internal talent scrapped so that $said_company could join the race to the bottom.
   
   
2. H1B candidates are paid prevailing wage. True for some, but most are shuffled about and treated like chattel, in worse fashion that the traditional American bodyshops treated their personnel. And a H1B candidate is much more restricted in job mobility than an American would be. Yes, there has been a recent uptick in contract/job advertisements but the pay rates, outside of specialty realms, is still total suckage. Rates/salaries lower than I made 12+ years ago. If there is such a strong demand being unfulfilled, why are not salaries/contract rates increasing significantly?
   
   
3. H1B candidates are "highly skilled" professionals, and are greatly desired and valued. In some cases, yes, but for the most part, these spots in no way can be construed as "highly skilled" -- again, in my experience, candidates sent to the U.S. might have had resumes boasting of requisite skills and experience, but when I met the candidate after his/her plane flight to the states, it would become readily apparent that their "skills and experience" consisted solely of a training curricullum overseas and a perusal of manuals on the plane ride over. Yet, as stated, we're doing a disservice to our own youth -- I realize many programmers opt for sexier type application devlopment like creating and deploying web applications, but even at the pay alotted to the offshore "bodyshop" vendors, these would be excellent jobs and career opportunities for young Americans. I have no problem with H1B or even citizen status for field luminaries like Linus Torvalds or others of genius level. But I believe it's a better national strategy to fill entry level positions with Americans, not foreigners.
   
   
4. Companies are legally prevented from replacing Americans with NIV workers.. Totally untrue, as if one takes time to research will discover. There are other legal provisions regarding how the H1B program operates, but enforcement is nil. Campaign contributions from "American" firms sway legislators into swallowing that corporate motives are benevolent. Employees are outright lied to. Again, I've experienced this firsthand.

But there is a dynamic at work here, namely that since "American" firms have invested so much (money, resources, strategy, time, etc....) in offshore vendors and importing NIV programmers they have created a defacto dependency on the paradigm. As they've chased Americans out of the field, in preference of a cheaper foreign factory approach, they now are much more reliant upon foreign engineers and programmers. Most of my colleagues have moved on to other career fields or they simply are hanging on as SMEs, marking the days to retirement. It's no wonder that computer and engineering student enrollments are declining -- there'll always be young Americans who answer to a calling despite potential career conditions and ramifications (i.e., see teaching), but statistics are now bearing out that the majority will pursue a more fruitful career path, both in terms of short term financial reward and long term job stability.

Ironically, or comically, or tragically (depending on your particular perspective!), from what I understand from conversing with friends who are directing such offshore/NIV programmer teams, the offshore vendors don't seem to acknowledge the great gift bestowed upon them. Instead, they've fouled it up, focused entirely on short term profits, managing their operations like multi-level marketing schemes. Shuffling workers to maintain a subserviant force, yet failing and leaving core systems of our largest companies in a sordid state of disrepair.

Regarding the "Krishna" comment

[GillBates0]

Because economics has become warfare- and unless you want to be forced to worship Krishna, there's a reason why we have national sovereignity.

Not that I think you would care, but you do know that Hinduism is one of the few non-proselytizing religions of the world, right (along with Buddhism and some others)? Simply put, these religions do not force others to "convert" to their religion or follow their methods of worship. This is unlike Christianity and Islam, which are proselytizing religions.

So, what is more likely and already occurring (see external links or do a simple Google search for missionary activities in Asia/Africac) is Indian Hindus being forced to convert to Christianity and Islam, rather than the other way around.

I don't care much for any religion any way (agnostic/atheist), but I know enough about major world religions to recognize when somebody's just spouting BS/propaganda.

Re:Regarding the "Krishna" comment

[GillBates0]

Oh and while I'm at it, I should point out that "national sovereignity" has nothing to do with "secularity" or "freedom of religion". Look up those terms, you'll find them enlightening. Just because a nation is sovereign does not mean it's secular, and vice versa.

H1B is beneficial for both parties

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I came here on H1B and got $35k for a engineering management job in MA that paid at least $80k at that time. Yes, I put 12 hrs/day. Yes, I exploited poor Indian programmers because I needed the wrok to be done and were afraid that I could threw them out of the country uno momento.

Now who are there any losers in this situation?
1. I became a US citizen and now I can command compensation I couldn't dream of in my native Italy with all my PhD and scientific achievements. Yes, I worked hard for pennies, but I appreciate the opportunity I had
2. Working hard Indian programmers I managed got their GC/citizenship and no longer work for 12-16 hrs/day and live in in-laws basement of my ex-boss.
3. My employer was rewarded by taking the risk of bringng me here with the developped product he still sells

If that enterpreneur could not develop this product without us just because ut would cost him ten times more. Thus, he would not hire any american programmers anyway, just because without immigrants this product was a no-starter. Now thousands of people are involved in making their own products with our tools, thus we created jobs, not destroyed them.

The topic and issue

[Nick05]

Lets not get sidetracked from the main topic. The main issue being discussed here is about how companies misuse the H1B quota to get cheap labour. Well the main culprit here are small Consultant companies, whose main aim is to get as many people from india and fill high paying jobs for less.They profit from just being able to sponsor employees using the H1b. Some of these companies have 100% Indian hires who work for less.The consultant charges much higher rate from the company and profits from not paying the employee(usally 40% or less).

I have personally attended some of their interviews(when I looked for jobs after college) but looks like most of these companies are run by Indians themselves(GC holders) and hire only Indians(Not policy but profitable-$$ for them).

Our company is on the top fortune 100 , and we outsource small projects to these consultants just because they work for less and a temp position cannot be filled any better. And as always they are uaully indians who apply through a consultant.

H1B hiring rules and practices should be made more stricter and priority given to companies that really needs a forign worker just for his skills and not just to replace a local worker.

Re:Raise less H1-B's and more Hell towards Co.'s.

[bladesjester]

My reactions were much the same. I expect professional behavior. If you don't have it, you don't have me.

US Jobs for US citizens, UK Sites for UK Surfers

[unity100]

US Jobs for US citizens, UK Sites for UK Surfers, Chinese search engines for chinese internet users, Belgian newspapers for belgian citizens ...

All to themselves.

Sounds like back in 1830s isnt it ?

What will the new internet startups, which are created by paying higher amounts of wages to american citizens do, when other countries get annoyed with this mercantilist approach in us, and start barring their citizens from using u.s. sites ?

Who will they sell the products ? Who will they serve information and ads ?

Back to the same u.s. citizens i assume. Then it is really back to 1830s, as the market will shrink and only the big will be able to cope with it.

Get logical. Mercantilism always barred trade and expansion. Internet has not been the way it is because of 'anything for themselves'.

But in the real world,

[jnelson4765]

Free markets evolve into cartels. The big fish band together to squeeze everyone else out, and then set prices according to their own whim.

And don't give me any crap about honest businessmen. All businessmen, especially those who work for publicly-traded corporations, have a responsibility to the bottom line and nothing more. That kind of amoral outlook on life means that you have no problem cozying up to dictators and autocrats, because it helps the bottom line not to have to deal with troublesome workers and community groups and whatnot.

An utterly free and unregulated market is subject to wild swings in price that inherently hurt the small operators in that market. Even the NYSE - high temple of the economy - has brakes in place on its electronic trading systems. Too much activity, up OR down makes the system slow down, until it shuts itself down.

Coersion! OMG!!!! Evil!!!! In the heart of Capitalism!!!!!!1!!!1

I would rather have my government protect me and mine from the ravages of an unregulated economy. After all, things like the FDA and the police are coersions as well. They restrict choices - everything from "no, you can't sell radium salts as a cure for goiters" to "no, you can't make an armed withdrawal from that bank".

Coersion is a fact of life in any government system. It's the only way to enforce minimal civility - because not everyone behaves in a decent and moral fasion on their own.

Re:Well sometime it's the law that need to be fixe

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah yes, how very simple and effective. Disallow all imports? So I guess that means no oil for you? Or no anything you can't produce locally? Of course that also means you'll no longer get to export anything - because who will have the dollars to buy it (if they can't earn them by selling you stuff)? Do it, let's see how long before your mighty country comes back on knees begging us to trade with them...

this is how it operates

[Anonymous Coward]

companies operate this way :

case 1 :

Company A (client ) asks for poeple with some experience - say 3-4 years.
recruiting agent searches for people (usually american agent)
agent contacts indian agents.
indian agents have their own companies sitting with people with no expeerience in reality, but are quite willing to lie about it. for every job they make a different resume. I have seen science graduates with no programming experience getting marketed as device-driver developers and being prepped with canned answers.
It helps verymuch that most of such hirings consist often of phone intervies, and american interviwers cannot really ask probing questions - law etc.

HR bimbo screenign resumes first round gets mostly indian resumes with 5-10 year experiences (cannot be verified or fake references have been arranged - you cannot realy verify 10 year experience in patel computer software india ltd, can you?) and allows only these candidates in.

if there's any american with a real 3-4 year experience in the resume fray, he does not even see the door.

managers get a few very mediocre candidates with interview coaching - no matter what your experience is, you can always answer questions liek ' how do you handle stress? tellme about your team experiece etc etc. no one asks to see the certificate or calls up the previous compnay. if they do, they entrust the indian bodyshop or crooked american agent with it, and you knwo what happens.

Also helps that americans are very politically correct and protected in their lives that they do not believe crookedness even when it's right under their noses. They would find PC explanations for everythgin themselves and would be eager to show off themselves as liberals. Indian has no problems like that.

managers given the project deadlines and budget exiration deadlines, will certainly hire one candidate from the bunch of fakers.

You cannot post an entry level job equirement without getting idian resumes claiming 5year experience - and HR bimbos will clear only them. Unless it's american experience backed by an american education, the resumes from India are often very very fake.

you are HORRIBLY wrong

[unity100]

1 - The price of competent it work NEVER goes down.

Not only it does not go down, but with phletora of very cheap, UNRELIABLE foreign labor, outsourcing and telecommuting, its value and sometimes rate rises. But definitely one thing about it benefits much from this ; the JOB SECURITY

Employers do the mistake of relying on cheap, unreliable immigrant personnel, outsourcing and telecommuting do this mistake AT MOST TWICE.

The third time, they seek out to find reliable people. Once they find it, they stick to them like hell. You wouldnt except the extent of tolerance, understanding and freedom you get on job related matters, once you land on such a position.

Furthermore, the fact that such a market, an opportunity to do overseas jobs, for ANY it professional that is on the internet, means that YOU WILL NEVER BE OUT OF A JOB, and thats flat.

So youve been fired from a local it position. They handed it over to a foreigner. So what ? Go home, get on the net, post 'im available' to a job board.

You DEFINITELY wont be getting hordes of $20.000 budget jobs, and you neither are going to go for $50-100 jobs. You will be getting small jobs, but periodically.

Once you sit and do the math, you will discover that you are getting more in terms of hours spent/wage paid this way.

If you work as hard as you would work in a local office, there is no reason you wouldnt make the same money.

Re:you are HORRIBLY wrong

[Sleuth]

Neat idea... which boards do you recommend?

Re:you are HORRIBLY wrong

[unity100]

It is generally better practice to post in places where someone hangs out - ie a community.

For example, if you are into gaming, and hang out in gaming board, it is definite that there are some places that gaming people start projects and seek out each other. You gotta find and post there.

Or as another example, if you are a web hoster, and been in various communities for a long time, people will recognize you and contact you when you post in the community boards. Webhosting talk for example have an active forum for hosting related projects, and even people come here to get developers for non-hosting projects.

So goes.

H1B visas are so last year. Now it's L1B

[Animats]

The trend now is towards L1B visas. These were something the US originally lobbied for, to allow Americans working for US multinationals to work abroad. But it works both ways. If a multinational company has operations in the US, they can move employees to their US locations under an L1B visa as an intracompany transfer.

L1B visas offer many advantages for the employer:

• There's no "cap"; any number can be issued.
• There's no need to advertise the job in the US.
• There's no "prevailing wage" requirement.
• The employee is totally controlled by the employer; they can't change jobs on an L1B visa, and if they quit, they must leave the US immediately.
• Big companies (1000 US employees or more) can apply for a "blanket L1 visa", and then move employees into the US freely.

There's a requirement that the employee had to be employed by the company for a year before coming to the US, and they're supposed to have "specialized knowledge", but that's about it.

So this has become a favorite tool of body shops; hire in India, make them work in a call center for a year, then send them to the US to work cheap.

Re:H1B visas are so last year. Now it's L1B

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree.
Please MOD parent up!

I have worked for a Multi National from India and know that most of these companies GROSSLY misuse the L1B and send programmars to the US. This being a restrictive work permit is MUCH MORE of a slave drive than H1B.. which seems to get ALL the media coverage.
If you are on L1B you are pretty much a slave.
There is NO prevailing wage so the corporation pays the programmer very less legally.
A blanket L1-B work permit means they can get an infinite amount of people.
And since the programmer is stuck with the comany, they CANNOT move to a better pay as they are "bound" to the company.
They don't get any of the benifits and have to take shit and work over time and all for no payment.
I think the L1-B program should be banned or removed as a first step..
coz it is actually an H1B program without ANY of the restraints ,balances and checks.
And this is NOT this year, I have been aware of this since 2000.

I also have friends who work in other company who also know about this.
Why is it that so few people know about the L1-B program?
I wonder... could it be because all the multinational who can file for the blanket L1Bs are some of the biggest corporations in US and India....

I guess not. The media would not "supress" information like that... or will it?

Re:H1B visas are so last year. Now it's L1B

[easter1916]

These were something the US originally lobbied for, to allow Americans working for US multinationals to work abroad

US citizens don't require a visa from the US government to work abroad... the government of the country the person wants to work in might, though.

Re:H1B visas are so last year. Now it's L1B

[Animats]

Right; it started as a reciprocal thing. The US offered L1 visas and encouraged other countries to offer something equivalent.

Regarding Lopsided Interviews (An MS example)

[Anonymous Coward]

The following is an email conversation that I had with a MS collegiate interview coordinator after grad school. The names
have been changed to protect the innocent (and guilty).

---
Hi R,

I just got the results of my phone screen last night and they were
negative. I'm a little surprised and confused about these results
though.

A friend from university, MK, (whom I referred to you)
received positive feedback even though I have 4 years more
professional experience in Microsoft technologies. His interview was
composed of mostly language-specific (C/C++/C#, etc) questions whereas
mine was composed of two variations of NP-hard math problems (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subset_sum_problem and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Np_hard)

I admit that I stumbled over these problems, but had I been given time
for research or had I been given the other problem set there would
have been no problem. MK would most surely testify that I am more
experienced than him in C/C++/C#/.NET and at least as good a problem
solver as he is in general. In fact, many times over the course of
our time at ETSU, he came to me for help with programming-related
questions.

I was hoping that you could help me to understand the imbalance
between our two screenings and to rectify the situation if you agree
that this was not fair.

Respectfully,

J

---
Hi J,

Unfortunately, I do not have access to your feedback nor would I be able to share this out due to legal reasons.

We certainly wish you the best in your endeavors and should you continue to be interested in Microsoft, please reapply in one year at www.microsoft.com/college.

Best,
R

---
Hello R,

Maybe the last email wasn't clear. I wasn't asking for you to share
any additional information. I was rather asking for you to explain
and rectify the inequality between my screening and the screening of
others. In specific, I think I should be given the same test as other
candidates.

Kind regards,
J

---
J,

I am sorry but this is all the information I have.
You are welcome to re-apply at a later date.

R

---
Remarks: MK is in the USA on a VISA and has an obviously foreign name.

Re:Regarding Lopsided Interviews (An MS example)

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking from experience I can definitely tell you that interviewing for two different groups in one company (such as MS) creates completely different interviewing experience. Some groups have an idea that a person straight out of college should have really good knowledge of algorithms but does not need any practical C++ experience. Other groups would not care at all about the algorithms/problems but would grill you hard on the language details. A third group may be more interested in writing well-tested code rather than knowing language details or classical algorithms.

A company under such large public scrutiny as MS would probably be very careful with H1B candidates.

Where I work

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm ACing this because, well, I like my job and I like to be able to eat...

Where I work, the tech staff is essentially 1/4 H1B visa workers, mostly from India and Asia. My department is more like 1/2. They bring people in as contractors, which is easier to do than place for perm positions, and if an H1B worker turns out to be worth keeping, they draft up a job notice that is specifically crafted for that employee, down to what specific majors, years exp, software packages used, etc., so that the given employee is the ONLY person that could fill the job requirements, and then it is legal to bring them on perm. The staff knows what is going on, as do the managers, HR, and the lawyers. They skate just inside of the letter of the law, but are, IMHO, *way* outside the intent.

But like I said, I like to eat, so I can't exactly do anything about it.

Re:Goods dont care if they're being messed with

[Anonymous Coward]

If there was real free immigration no one would live in a slave labour country!

If there was a "free market" in governments the bad ones would die. Governments don't want that. Racists don't want it. Selfish people who live in a good country don't want it, because it would most likely make their country worse.

So, hmm, status quo.

because it's larger

[YesIAmAScript]

Pool 1: American workers.
Pool 2: American workers + foreign workers.

I'm not saying foreign workers are more likely to be suitable by percentage.

But pool 2 is bigger than pool 1 and includes pool 1 as a subset, so if you have exhausted all candidates already from pool 1, moving on to pool 2 (and fighting politically for the ability to do so) is natural.

Re:because it's larger

[Anonymous Coward]

So your company exhausted all candidates from the US (e.g put advertisements in all major US newspapers, monster, hotjobs, interviewed hundreds of candidates etc), before turning to foreign workers? Clearly the hit rate percentage for foreign workers should be the same as US workers, so there's no legitimate reason to go foreign before running out of potential candidates in the US. Of course, if qualifications aren't the real reason, then it would make sense.

that's a stupid way to hire...

[YesIAmAScript]

Just hiring any pair of hands is not useful in the area I'm in. I need qualified people who can do their own work without a lot of hand-holding. If I hire unqualified people, I just end up making more work for the existing people, trying to help the unqualified people deal with being over their heads.

As anyone in the tech industry knows (esp. in the .com crunch), not having enough people means you just work the existing workers harder. Ironically, this raises productivity, which then Alan Greenspan (who I respect in most ways) misinterprets as some kind of natural/beneficial increase in the productivity of the workforce, instead of overworking people.

Re:that's a stupid way to hire...

[ClosedSource]

If you meant qualified instead of suitable, you should have said so. Why don't you state your qualifications and then we can judge whether there is (or was) a shortage of such candidates?

Re:Goods dont care if they're being messed with

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with all your points except the last. I think that even selfish people in good countries would want it, because a free market in labor would create higher economic growth in the domestic economy. Furthermore, as you point out, governments would then have to respect their workers else they would leave. So, you'd get more stable economic and political systems in other countries too, thereby not only increasing economic growth but reducing volatility, and arguably increasing human rights across the board. The only *selfish* people who live in "good" countries who would want the status quo are the wealthy, as their input (eg. capital) into the global economy is already free, and they gain by having the other input (eg. labor) be free enough that they can get it (eg. more H-1Bs, 3-5-year GC processing please), but heavily restricted so that they can abuse the workers once they are in the US (eg. more H-1Bs, 3-5-year GC processing please, and thank-you!).

Economics is an Art

[Tablizer]

Economics is a science. It has laws.

That is not entirely true. A lot of it deals with human behavior, which is psychology, still a dark-grey art.

Further, free trade does not guarentee equality nor stability. It may maximize the *average* purchasing power, but the distribution can be very uneven and also it can create a lot of turmoil. Economists are sometimes naive this way, thinking a higher average score in their models is the only way to measure.

No respected economist has ever claimed that free trade provides fairly even distribution and stability that I know of. Most accounts seem to show free trade benefiting wealthy investors far more than others because they make money no matter where your job goes in the world.

Further, there is no guarentee it won't result in lousy jobs. Maybe the US's comparative avantage is marketing and minpulation because science brains are becomming a cheap global commodity. If you are not an expert marketer, you are hosed. Walmart greeters may end up being paid more than programmers and all us greeters can afford a Hummer. Joy!

The worst is yet to come

[sgt_doom]

While nobody's been paying attention (say to the Congressional Record, Federal Register, new laws handed down from the National Labor Relations Board, vile congressional legislation, and equally as vile Supreme Court decisions) "they" will soon be building the NAFTA mega-highway - going from the Mexican boarder to the Canadian border through the middle of the USA.

And people wonder why Bush suddenly sent the National Guard to the southern border and is hot and bothered to get a "Guest Worker" bill passed. [You know, use non-citizen workers to build it - use the Guard to protect them from American protesters - and then circumvent Longshoremen Union and Teamsters Union by using Mexican shipping ports and foreign truck drivers.]

Re:The worst is yet to come

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

Oh shit, I never thought of that one.

End Parasite Cycle

[Tablizer]

[Are the people overseas less deserving of jobs, and the progress of the modern world?] Let them invent their own technology, create their own progress, just as we did.

Amen! There is an underlying assumption that the US *must* be the dumping ground for cheap labor and products, that the only way for a country to raise up is be a US parasite. This is hogwash. Our trade deficit is at risk of a huge bubble poppage because of this parasite mentality. Other countries can encourage consumption and local businesses to prime their own pump.

Re:Raise less H1-B's and more Hell towards Co.'s.

[Anonymous Coward]

I am from the Midwest, I live in the Chicago area. Things are not screwy here at all, companies appear to be hiring like crazy and they are offering full benefits and high salaries.

Please be a bit more specific about the "high salaries." As in, are you talking over or under six figures?

anecdote

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't prove it, but I think my company hires only H1-B Visa holders because they know that they will be unwilling to move companies while their Greencard is being processed. As a result, instead of doing the business analyst and development work they were promised, they are told to do production support on horrible VB6 and PL/SQL code. it really upsets me, but that's the easiest way to get qualified people do do undesirable work

HEY FAKE SLASHPANDA

[Anonymous Coward]

Why did yuo leave trolltalk?!!!

Re:Raise less H1-B's and more Hell towards Co.'s.

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

geez really? what the hell was he/she saying?

you don't give much hope to the people that have a hard time just getting interviews :)

Re: RTFA

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

RTFA, look at the wages

http://www.forthecause.us/ftc-video-CNN-WarOnMiddl eClass_060623.wmv
http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1305appendice s.pdf

Re:MOD PARENT UPPP

[RalphTheWonderLlama]

people should be able to see this

Bankrupt the fuckers

[Fujisawa Sensei]

Welcome to America, Americans need not apply.

I hope the Programmers Guild sues the fuckers so far into bankruptcy the corporate officers have have their social security checks garnished--forever.

go ahead and make up your own reasons

[YesIAmAScript]

But it is my decision as a hiring manager. And I know why I did it.

As I pointed out before, it's not like I pay the salaries of my hires. It isn't even in my regular budget. Only HR really cares, and again, we don't even talk money until after we've decided whether we want a candidate or not anyway.

I exhausted all candidates that applied for the position. And the position was widely posted and the postings of the company I work for are widely watched, at rare times even appearing in the regular news. It's not my job to go find candidates who decide to hide in a corner instead of applying for available positions. It's the recruiting department's, and they have sent me monster and hotjobs resumes in the past, so I guess they look there.

I have interviewed over 30 candidates for a position before. I've looked at a hundred candidates for a position before.

There's no satisfying you. You'll believe what you want to believe. All I can hope is some day you're on the other side of the table and have to make the same decisions I do. We'll see what you do then.

Only 1 person of the 5 who work for me is an H1-B worker.

Re:go ahead and make up your own reasons

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I have been in your position. I received over 100 resumes. Interviewed 6 people, made offers to 2. One took the job, one didn't. Then offered the job to another of the 6. He took it. The whole process took less than a month from advertising the job to hiring the people. Both workers were great. Simple and efficient.

what's the difference?

[YesIAmAScript]

What's the difference between qualified and suitable? I don't understand that.

---EXAMPLE ONLY. THIS DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A JOB POSTING---

I need a candidate with experience in embedded systems operating system development, driver development and hardware bringup. Must be able to use the suitable diagnostic equipment. Knowledgable in embedded systems issues related to consumer electronics.

Knowledgable in intraboard and interboard communications systems.
Knowledgable in power management for embedded systems.
2-3 years experience in embedded systems required.

(In acknowledgement of the regular way this stuff works, the last 3 are really somewhat flexible, we'd need 2 out of 3 basically. Candidates know this and still apply without filling all the requirements and we consider them even though they don't fill all the requirements)

Also, even though they might think they fit the descriptions, we generally will not interview "comms people" (although I get their resumes from the recruiters). These are people with phone or router experience instead of consumer electronics. They are technically embedded systems, but I've found their priorities are so different and their experience is completely orthagonal to what is useful for me, most notably in the power management area.

Got anything for me? I have to warn I'm somewhat picky too. I've interviewed over 30 candidates for a position before, so just finding a couple doesn't mean they are good enough. I'm not going to hire people who don't really know what they are doing, they'll just slow down the excellent people I already have.

Re:what's the difference?

[winwar]

Out of curiousity, why spend so much time trying to find the "perfect" candidate? Why not train one who has enough skills/ability?

In any case, if you can afford not to hire someone, that indicates the need is not critical. Plenty of places seem willing to go a long time without an employee rather than hire someone and train them (in all fields). I don't understand this.

Re:what's the difference?

[ClosedSource]

Personally having extensive experience in embedded systems in consumer, medical, industrial, and military applications, I'd say that your theory that embedded development of consumer electronics is so specialized that you wouldn't consider hiring people with general embedded experience isn't justified. Of course, if your own embedded experience is limited to a single industry, it's understandable.

Perhaps part of the problem is specifying 2-3 years experience which means very little experience. Whenever I see an upper bound on experience I interpret that as an indication that the salary is low and that older workers need no apply. Essentially you're looking for young, cheap labor but you still want skills that are rarely available at that experience level.

No wonder your having trouble.

that wasn't an upper bound

[YesIAmAScript]

I think you read too many of your own feelings into the post.

2-3 years was a minimum, not a maximum. I probably should have written it as just "2 years".

I should have put battery-powered on the "consumer electronics" thingy. But yes, it's very specialized. And I didn't say I wouldn't intterview people who have general experience. I said we generally won't interview people who have only telecoms experience (in their embedded experience). I've interviewed a lot of them, and found they're just not what I'm looking for. So I save myself some trouble.

I didn't have a tons of experience in these areas when I was hired. And I've interviewed plenty of people who don't meet all the criteria. I even write that in my post that we consider people who don't meet all the criteria.

I tried to do everything I could to defuse comments like your own, you ignore what I wrote and argue about what I already clarified anyway.

If you talked to my boss and my bosses boss, you might not complain about my choosiness so much. I have the best team in my division, and everyone acknowledges it. One of the people I hired was in a testing/qualification position, and I still hired him because he seemed to have what it takes. And I was right. So I don't feel like I'm narrowing the field too much. Of course, I could be wrong.

Re:that wasn't an upper bound

[ClosedSource]

"2-3 years was a minimum, not a maximum. I probably should have written it as just "2 years".

Why not just say a minimum of 5 years? That would increase the probability of finding someone who meet the technical requirements.

"I should have put battery-powered on the "consumer electronics" thingy."

There are plenty of embedded systems that are not comsumer, but are battery operated. In any case, I don't see why not having experience with battery-operated systems is a key issue for a software team, even if they are going to build a battery-operated system.

"I've interviewed a lot of them, and found they're just not what I'm looking for."

This sounds rather subjective. What were they missing that others were not?

"I have the best team in my division, and everyone acknowledges it."

Perhaps you do. But it's usually hard to trace a company's performance back to the quality of a particular team. Are the inferior teams generating less money for the company?

Right or wrong, you're probably doing the right thing for your personal career. The general principle is that it's more important to be thought of by upper management as being the best than it is to actually be the best.

I'll let go of this now and shutup.

I can afford not to hire someone..

[YesIAmAScript]

More than I can afford to hire the wrong person.

As I said twice already, hiring the wrong person reduces the efficacy of my current employees. Leaving the position unfilled for a while doesn't hurt me, just not help. That's a net gain. Besides, if I fill the position with the wrong person, it takes time to fire them and get the right one. In the meantime, I maybe could have found the right guy (or woman). I'm not really allowed to go a long time without hiring a person, even if I felt I could manage the load. Oddly, I'm also pressured to request more job openings even if I don't feel I need them. I don't know why, perhaps my chain of command is trying to bulk up to look more important?

I have trained several people. Two of my employees are college hires with little experience in production-level software at all, let alone in embedded areas. Another had less than 1 year of experience out of college, but in the embedded area. Another applied for the position despite not quite meeting all the requirements and was hired. He had about 5 years experience in testing/qualification and had bringup experience. The other two met the qualifications pretty much to a T. One of these last two is my only H1-B employee of the six.

One of the six is very good, the rest are great. I'm not going say which, to preserve a little anonymity. Every one of them still had to learn quite a bit in their positions, you generally do not find people ready to hit the ground running.

5 years?

[YesIAmAScript]

"Why not just say a minimum of 5 years? That would increase the probability of finding someone who meet the technical requirements."

It would not. It would increase the probability of an individual candidate meeting the technical requirements. But I'd get far fewer candidates, which is the problem I expressed in the post you are replying to (several levels down now). So I need to give a smaller number so I get more candidates to look at.

"There are plenty of embedded systems that are not comsumer, but are battery operated. In any case, I don't see why not having experience with battery-operated systems is a key issue for a software team, even if they are going to build a battery-operated system."

Yeah, I know. However, in my experience, those people don't know the stuff I need. I work with a bunch of people who design laptops, and they don't really save power in the way I need people to save power. I could explain it all, but I'm not going to. Suffice to say there are things that makers of larger battery powered devices (like cars or laptops) don't know and I need them to know.

"This sounds rather subjective. What were they missing that others were not?"

It's completely subjective.

For starters, the vast majority of them have never actually brought up an embedded system or written drivers for it. They make a system by buying a reference board (or perhaps getting one their company already uses) and run a config script for VXWorks to adapt it to the hardware. Anyone can do that. I need people who can bring up a new board and write the drivers for it and truly adapt the OS.

The other thing they are missing is any kind of power management knowledge. Routers are built for maximum performance, not for min power usage. Telecoms (phone switching) are even less concerned with power. As long as their device doesn't overheat, they don't care how much power it uses.

"Perhaps you do. But it's usually hard to trace a company's performance back to the quality of a particular team. Are the inferior teams generating less money for the company?"

I agree with your sentiment. But just because you can get away with hiring worse people is no excuse to. And yes, my people are helping the company make money directly. My people have been able to do more with less hardware than other teams. And when you have a competitive price environment, being able to make a device with less expensive hardware in it is a big advantage in turning a profit.

And when my group consistently delivers on time and with high quality, my team becomes the go to team. My team and myself were directly responsible for the software for the largest-selling product my company made in the last year and the year before. And so when it came time to who was going to be responsible for the software for the likely best-selling product for my company this year, we were chosen again.

I figure I'm doing something right.

Particular field of business

[Chesler]

Are the skills in gaming that different from other kinds of software?

I'm sure there are gaming-specific skills, but I'd imagine a lot of the constraints on the code are not so domain-specific. Too many employers want somebody who has just left the exact position being hired for, and nothing else. As a former co-worker put it, "Have you used this kind of screwdriver before?" (I write good software. I'm particularly good at complex and mathematical algorithms, but I've done it for various domains. I don't know if gaming could use my skills, but I wouldn't have looked in a gaming-specific market.)

how do you propose we actually reach people, if not through those web sites?

If you're looking for a software engineer, look where the software engineers are, rather than where the people who want to work in your field are. Same thing if you wanted to buy a new coffee machine for your break room, I suppose you might find a vendor who specializes in providing coffee machines to the gaming industry, but your coffee needs aren't all that different from any other office, just ask for bids from canteen companies, and the one you choose will be able to find your address, and find the outlet and plumbing in your break room just fine. You'll probably be happier if you choose the vendor who has a selection of herbal teas (if that's what you want) or the right roast of coffee or a machine that makes cappucino, rather than looking for a vendor who has already sold coffee machines to other gaming companies.

Re:Particular field of business

[rblum]

The skills in gaming are more specialized than in many other fields, yes. If we need a senior graphics guy, we need somebody who lives, eats and breathes graphics. Yes, you can quickly pick up the foundations - but making graphics work (fast enough) is an art. Same goes for physics. Same goes for AI. So we're left with the problem that for senior guys, we need to stay in-industry. For entry-level positions, we could probably post on monster - but entry-level is the one thing we can probably get enough off.

That's why I was saying the H1B problem is different from case to case. We need very specialized developers, and there are only so many to go round. (The industry is small enough that you'll meet everybody again in your career, sooner or later). It might very well be different in other areas. Simply saying that H1B is evil doesn't cut the mustard, though.

Re:Particular field of business

[Chesler]

Are the physics and graphics that different in gaming than elsewhere? (I borrowed from gaming sources -- and it drove our netnannying firewall nuts -- when I was doing aero. When I needed to learn some VRML to visualize 4-D trajectories, there you were, and when I needed a quick reference for STARs [Standard Terminal Arrival Routes] to infer flight plans, I found it from a flight simulator more easily than any FAA source.)

I've found the biggest learning curves are for the new employer's implementation. The basic concepts of the domain take only days to learn; the skills, aptitude, and coding practices derived from experience are what the software developer brings to the table.

Just one problem...

[Anonymous Coward]

These so-called 'job ads' are not for real jobs. It is crystal clear from the ads quoted by the "Programmers Guild" that these are advertisements seeking H1B holders who want to go freelance with their _existing contracts_. The H1B holders takes their existing IT contract to a new bodyshop, who files the H1B and takes a percentage off the top before paying the H1B holder. Presumably the H1B has a happy client but isn't happy with the middleman, so they want to change. It's a pretty common occurence because H1B's cannot be self employed, hence it generates a market for small bodyshops/middlemen who will handle the visa paperwork. It's not illegal as far as I can see. There is no 'job' involved for Americans to miss out on, since it is an existing position, and American citizens don't need to pay a middleman 10% just for the privilege of working a contract.

Re:Temporary ???

[grs100]

Thanks, I knew that, but just didn't fully explain. I really was not trying to get involved in the whole immigrant process here.

Re:MarxistHacker?Racist Repug Minuteman more likel

[Anonymous Coward]

There are no jobs an American won't do for the right price. Too bad it costs too much.

And you still don't understand.

The people are unwilling to buy for a price higher than the price they're willing to pay. So the manufacturer needs to keep costs down to keep that price down. So the jobs that are available will only pay so much. Which nobody's willing to work for. So the jobs don't get filled. The products aren't made. The products aren't bought because they're not made.

The shopkeeper earns less because he couldn't sell the product that needed to be made. So the shopkeeper lays off staff.

The factory doesn't exist, so its employees spend nothing in the shops. So the shopkeeper lays off even more staff.

But no, we can't relax the borders a little, because doing so would take jobs away from the natives, right?

our client is looking for h1b visa holders!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a us citizen and the last time when I was looking for a job, a company called me over the phone and asked me if I knew some one with H1B visa. When I told that I am a us citizen, the voice on the other end told me "we know but we thought since you are in the IT industry you may know someone who has H1B visa that you can refer to us, because our client is looking specifically for H1B visa holders". I hung up right away and thought if I should sue them!

Re:Raise less H1-B's and more Hell towards Co.'s.

[Danga]

$75k-125k+ salary per year and full benefits.

The Irony

[jamie(really)]

We can't hire professionals fast enough (programmers, artists, animators). The years allocations of H1B's vanish in the first two months of the year. There are simply not enough Americans to fill the posts. So what are our options?

One of those options it to look into offshore development. The people exist to fill the seats, but unfortunately they are in other countries and we can't bring them here. So one option is to take the job to them. What does this mean? It means that Americans are still not getting the job. But it also means that not only is that one programming job going overseas, but so is the management, the HR dept, the IT support dept, the purchases of computers, the building, the air con maintenance guy, the DSL bill.

But most damaging is the expertise on how to put it all together. Frequently in this industry (I make games) teams split off from their parent companies and go it alone. When those offshore companies lose teams, those teams are now total losses to the American economy: we are basically funding other nations to develop a technology industry.

I'm British. I wasn't trained here in the states. I came here because I was good. If I were to have to go back to the UK, I would keep doing what I'm doing, just with less sunshine and less money. Better that I'm here paying US taxes and contributing to the US economy and keeping the US Industry paramount.

The programmers guild is unknowingly helping the very wealthy individuals move expertise and experience to places where it can be employed for less money.

Re:The Irony

[Chesler]

We can't hire professionals fast enough (programmers, artists, animators). The years allocations of H1B's vanish in the first two months of the year. There are simply not enough Americans to fill the posts.

  There are plenty of programmers who are eligible to work in the US. Many are unemployed/underemployed, and others would leave their current jobs for a guaranteed better deal. It is a lie to say that there are not enough Americans to fill the posts. It may be the case that there are not enough Americans willing to fill your posts at the compensation you are offering.

  Please cut the hypocrisy and say what you mean.

So what are our options?

Besides increasing the compensation (which is more than paycheck -- most of us older engineers, who have been through a few layoffs and unemployment, would rather have stability than the chance of getting rich) consider building your own, that is, training apt engineers. Depending of which aspect of "gaming" you're doing (and since you've mentioned physics I suspect it's a simulation) there are undoubtably programmers who've worked on the real things that you are simulating.

The programmers guild is unknowingly helping the very wealthy individuals move expertise and experience to places where it can be employed for less money.

A non-immigrant engineer (H1-B etc.) is already exporting the training when he goes back home, so that's a non-starter. If the next-best substitute for an imported non-immigrant engineer is offshore development, eliminating H1-Bs is pretty much a wash for local engineers, depending on the momentum (that is, I recognize that once they start doing half of their development in Bangalore they may decide to do all of it there.) I'm confident however that in enough cases the next-best substitute for an H1-B is a local engineer.

The truth

[BostonGCVictim]

The H1 visa program enables talented, amibitious hard-working people from all around the world to pursue the American dream. The U.S. in return gets these highly trained and skilled brains for no cost at all. It is really sad to see some dubious companies preying on the needs of unsuspecting and eager foreigners who only want to work and earn a decent living here. It is even more sad to see organized groups use the devious schemes as examples to bad mouth the H1 visa program. Do they ever thank the thousands of folks who have contributed immensely to the economy? If H1B was indeed only to hire cheap labor, has anyone wondered why we don't see foreign architects, accountants, lawyers, professors, health care workers etc in the same numbers as IT professionals since it is allowed by law? Considering a 5% unemployment rate, 65,000 is less than 0.45% of the total unemployed. What the U.S. should be worried about is not the few jobs that go to these brilliant foreign talent but the day when these people do not wish to come to the U.S. anymore!
BostonGCVictim

Re:The truth

[Chesler]

The H1 visa program enables talented, amibitious hard-working people from all around the world to pursue the American dream.

  It's a non-immigrant visa. It allows these folks to get a taste of the American experience for 3 years, send the money home, and get some experience they take home when they leave.

Do they ever thank the thousands of folks who have contributed immensely to the economy?

  When your Unemployment Insurance is running out because it's taken more than 6 months to find a job in your profession, one in which you're told there is some pressing shortage of labor, thanking the loyal citizens of other countries who are competing for the same jobs on an unlevel field may not be topmost in your mind.

If H1B was indeed only to hire cheap labor, has anyone wondered why we don't see foreign architects, accountants, lawyers, professors, health care workers etc in the same numbers as IT professionals since it is allowed by law?

Given that one must be PE, CPA, member of the bar, etc. to work in those fields, there is little to wonder about.

Considering a 5% unemployment rate, 65,000 is less than 0.45% of the total unemployed.

  That's interesting. What do those two numbers have to do with each other?

  The total of unemployed programmers is around 100,000, with more than that number underemployed or working in other fields. (I'm just going to go with Professor Matloff's figures here. The visa is good for 3 or 6 years, and the cap was higher in recent years, so there are several hundred thousand workers currently on H1-B (463,000 as of 2002 (Matloff's note 277 citing Angell.)

What the U.S. should be worried about is not the few jobs that go to these brilliant foreign talent

H1-B is not about brilliancy! It's about run-of-the-mill programmers paid "prevailing" rates which are considerably less than the market rate for good programmers.

but the day when these people do not wish to come to the U.S. anymore!

Why wouldn't they want to come?

Re:The truth

[BostonGCVictim]

It's a non-immigrant visa. It allows these folks to get a taste of the American experience for 3 years, send the money home, and get some experience they take home when they leave.

H1B visa is a dual-intent visa where-by the person can get sponsorship for permanent residency from the employer. So if they like the taste then they can stay too.

When your Unemployment Insurance is running out because it's taken more than 6 months to find a job in your profession, one in which you're told there is some pressing shortage of labor, thanking the loyal citizens of other countries who are competing for the same jobs on an unlevel field may not be topmost in your mind.

If we compare job levels during irrationally exuberant boom times of 1999 to job levels during the recession of 2002, we'll find "unemployment insurance" running out not only among programmers but among every other field. This year it took us 1 month of interviews to hire a IT help desk and our top candidate got another job, we got the second best. It took us 2 months and 2 rounds of hirings to get a System Admin and he destroyed our Exchange server within a month. Talk about getting quality candidates. In both cases we didn't call any foreign candidates and salary was not a constraint.

Given that one must be PE, CPA, member of the bar, etc. to work in those fields, there is little to wonder about.

So certifications/memberships are preventing foreign workers in all of these other professions and IT is the only one that doesn't require certifications/memberships so that's why we have so many foreign workers? So let's have such requirements in IT too and let's see how many of the 100,000 unemployed actually can make it through. Most IT jobs are highly skilled and anyone with half a brain who wishes to be in IT shouldn't be able to just because he wants to.

H1-B is not about brilliancy! It's about run-of-the-mill programmers paid "prevailing" rates which are considerably less than the market rate for good programmers.

It IS about brilliancy, when thousands of candidates from the rest of the world compete for 65,000 visas only the brilliant few can get them. There may be some who do run-of-the-mill programming jobs but that doesn't discount them as run-of-the-mill, its the visa program that ties them to an employer and doesn't give them an opportunity to go for cutting-edge jobs. They can't change employers as projects change. Disconnect the visa from the employer and you won't see many of them doing run-of-the-mill jobs at "prewailing" rates. There may still be some who come through contacts but the market will take care of such low quality workers.

Why wouldn't they want to come?

More than 30,000 people left US as more opportunities open up for them in their home countries. Here's one NY Times story

Re:The truth

[Chesler]

H1B visa is a dual-intent visa where-by the person can get sponsorship for permanent residency from the employer.

  It's dual-intent in the sense that staying home is dual-intent because they could apply for a visa, or being a citizen is dual-intent because you could renounce your citizenship. (Granted that unlike some visas applying for permanent residency doesn't void it, but that doesn't mean it's any faster road to permanent residency than its absence.)

If we compare job levels during irrationally exuberant boom times of 1999 to job levels during the recession of 2002, we'll find "unemployment insurance" running out not only among programmers but among every other field.

In how many other fields where unemployment insurance (no need for sneer-quotes, that's the official name) was running out were there simultaneously calls for importing workers in those fields because of a "desperate labor shortage"?

So let's have such requirements in IT too and let's see how many of the 100,000 unemployed actually can make it through. Most IT jobs are highly skilled and anyone with half a brain who wishes to be in IT shouldn't be able to just because he wants to.

A lot of people in the profession would like such a barrier to entry. How would you implement it? Unlike lawyers, we don't make the laws; unlike doctors and professional engineers we can't appeal to "public safety"; and by our nature and the nature of our employers and the current era forming a trade union is not likely.

What would be the requirements? Many who are in the field today got their undergraduate degrees (or didn't get them) before there were computer science or computer engineering degrees. Good practices are learned on the job, and particular languages and other implementation skills are a very fast moving target.

I can't speak for the other 99,999 unemployed engineers, but I was buzzword-compliant as to education, training, skills and experience. There are similar claims in various articles that Americans don't have necessary skills, but this is rarely backed up by "Here is this job, it needs these skills, I will pay relocation and offer $125,000/year for an American who has these skills or who can become current in them in 3 months time."

H1-B is not about brilliancy! It's about run-of-the-mill programmers paid "prevailing" rates which are considerably less than the market rate for good programmers.

It IS about brilliancy, when thousands of candidates from the rest of the world compete for 65,000 visas only the brilliant few can get them.

Do you have any evidence that there is skills-based competition?

Advanced degrees are only a surrogate measure, both foreign and domestic, but apparently the H1-B exemption allowing 20,000 more visas for those holding US advanced degrees is going unfilled.

There may be some who do run-of-the-mill programming jobs but that doesn't discount them as run-of-the-mill, its the visa program that ties them to an employer and doesn't give them an opportunity to go for cutting-edge jobs. They can't change employers as projects change. Disconnect the visa from the employer and you won't see many of them doing run-of-the-mill jobs at "prewailing" rates. There may still be some who come through contacts but the market will take care of such low quality workers.

There are good strategic reasons to offer protectionism for domestic high-tech workers, but I'd get off the bandwagon at that point, where the playing field has been leveled by making H1-B workers no more indentured or otherwise disadvantaged (and thus cheaper) than domestic workers. Here we are in complete agreement.