Slashdot Mirror
Immaturity Level Rising in Adults
Ant writes to tell us that a Discovery News article is exploring the old adage, "like a kid at heart", which may be closer to the truth than we would like to admit. New research is showing that grown-ups are more immature than ever. From the article: "Specifically, it seems a growing number of people are retaining the behaviors and attitudes associated with youth. As a consequence, many older people simply never achieve mental adulthood, according to a leading expert on evolutionary psychiatry."
Adult Resignation
To Whom It May Concern:
I am hereby officially tendering my resignation as an adult.
I have decided I would like to accept the responsibilities of a 6 year old again.
I want to go to McDonald's and think that it's a four star restaurant.
I want to sail sticks across a fresh mud puddle and make ripples with rocks.
I want to think M&Ms are better than money, because you can eat them.
I want to play kickball during recess and paint with watercolors in art.
I want to lie under a big Oak tree and run a lemonade stand with my friends on a hot summers day.
I want to return to a time when life was simple.
When all you knew were colors, addition tables and simple nursery rhymes. But that didn't bother you, because you didn't know what you didn't know and you didn't care.
When all you knew was to be happy because you didn't know all the things that should make you worried and upset.
I want to think that the world is fair. That everyone in it is honest and good.
I want to believe that anything is possible.
Somewhere in my youth...I matured and I learned too much.
I learned of nuclear weapons, war, prejudice, starvation and abused children.
I learned of lies, unhappy marriages, suffering, illness, pain and death.
I learned of a world where men left their families to go and fight for our country, and returned only to end up living on the streets... begging for their next meal.
I learned of a world where children knew how to kill...and did.
What happened to the time when we thought that everyone would live because we didn't grasp the concept of death?
When we thought the worst thing in the world was if someone took the jump rope from you or picked you last for kickball?
I want to be oblivious to the complexity of life and be overly excited by little things once again. I want to return to the days when reading was fun and music was clean. When television was used to report the news or for family entertainment and not to promote sex, violence and deceit.
I remember being naive and thinking that everyone was happy because I was.
I would walk on the beach and only think of the sand between my toes and the prettiest seashell I could find.
I would spend my afternoon climbing trees and riding my bike.
I didn't worry about time, bills or where I was going to find the money to fix my car.
I used to wonder what I was going to do or be when I grew up, not worry about what I'll do if this doesn't work out.
I want to live simple again.
I don't want my day to consist of computer crashes, mountains of paperwork, depressing news, how to survive more days in the month than there is money in the bank, doctor bills, gossip, illness and loss of loved ones.
I want to believe in the power of smiles, hugs, a kind word, truth, justice, peace, dreams, the imagination, mankind and making angels in the snow.
I want to be 6 again.
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. -- Harlan Ellison
Maybe it's because as the world turns increasingly to s h i t, people develop a imaturity complex derived from the "laugh" half of the proverbial "laugh or cry" syndrome.
With the focus in the past few decades on feelings, emotions, and our complete obsession with "our inner child." It's not surprising at all, it's been a while since we cared about some responsibility.
There's a reason people are suing everybody, there's a reason tobacco companies have been losing so much money in courts; we're like a cuontry of 8 year olds, always pointing at somebody else in the back of class that through the paper airplane.
That said, I think we're going to see a turn around with the generation in college right now, less divorces, less stupidity because it seems that more and more young people are sick and tied of the bullshit.
Error 407 - No creative sig found
A "child-like flexibility of attitudes, behaviors and knowledge" is probably adaptive to the increased instability of the modern world, Charlton believes. Formal education now extends well past physical maturity, leaving students with minds that are, he said, "unfinished."
and
"By contrast, many modern adults fail to attain this maturity, and such failure is common and indeed characteristic of highly educated and, on the whole, effective and socially valuable people," he said.
So it looks like his definition of 'maturity' coresponds to my 'boring old fart', which, at the age of 53, I hope I'm not.
init 11 - for when you need that edge.
Slashdot posters especially tend to overstate the value of youthful flexibility and forget what evil little pricks children often are.
Part of maturing is learning to handle the fact that you are part of the world and that you don't always get what you want. Adult temper tantrums are increasingly viewed as the way to get things done, a vicious and childish response to being balked is hailed as being "forceful" and "practical".
But the real cause of bad jokes is that people are as desperate as ever to be well liked. I blame that on the growing culture of sexual presumptiveness in our society. You can't just go up to a stranger and start conversing with them usually without her/him thinking your up to something, no matter how natural you are (unless you have a reason to be talking). People in general are paranoid, presumptive, and take themselves too seriously. They have nightmare stories in the back of their minds from 'Unsolved Mysteries' that tell them never to talk to strangers because they will rape and kill you!
At least, that's the way people are in my town. I dunno about yours.
I think part of the problem might be that people are not forced to grow up and take responsibility at such a young age as they were before. I am now living in Africa but comparing my experiences to when I was living in the West I see this every day. Many children here have to take serious responsibilities in life from a young age. Perhaps they have to look after whole families or simply go out and find food every day for themselves. Regardless, when speaking to some of the young people you find that they are relatively mature.
Perhaps in the West people are too protected and hence don't need to grow up. Many people by the age of 18 have never gone to bed with hunger pains. They have probably never had a real job. They are probably given an allowance from their parents that they can go and waste on useless luxuries. The kids in the West are pampered and spoilt. No wonder there is a trend towards immaturity.
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10);'
I think that this is just a way for adults to deal with the stress of current day life. Or a side affect if you will.
Yes that's all very sentimental but why do you want to be six again, an age where from time to time you can sail a stick across a mud puddle but more often than not you are told you can't go near the mud muddle because you're wearing good clothes/at a wedding/supposed to stay dry? Who yearns for a time when everything is out of your control and sailing sticks across a pond is fun because you've still to undeveloped mentally to enjoy a good game of Risk?
I prefer a world where I have greater control over my freedom, where my education is in my own hands as is my destinty. A world where I can paint watercolors any damn time I feel like no matter what I'm wearing and while I am aware of nuclear weapons I can also dismiss such vapid fears casually to enjoy a warm summer day.
Being an adult is awesome if you just follow the golden words of Paul McCartney and let it be!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I don't think the immaturity discussion at hand has really anything to do with becoming one of the Sheeple and conforming to expected norms. I think it has everything to do with accepting responsibilities. That I think is a growing problem that people seem to be less responsible than in the past...
I myself am happy to maintain a child like outlook on life but I also take responsibilities and commitments and relationships very seriously. Perhaps it is the erosion of serious relationships in society (and that could mean anything from partners to very close friends) that is tainting other aspects of life for some people.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Ironically it's the ones that aren't intentional that we should be worrying about...
Summation 2
"a growing number of people are retaining the behaviors and attitudes associated with youth"
Oh my God!!!! Adults don't think about money any more! what are we going to do?! Don't tell me wars will soon be over!! Quick, you, "leading expert on evolutionary psychiatry", give me some aderol!!!
I believe that being mature simply means to accept the consequences of our acts.
Being mature doesn't have anything to do with being predictable, boring, let-me-read-my-diary old fart or being playful, childish, fun and sometimes impredictable and impulsive.
As long as I accept the consequences of my acts let me play all I can and enjoy simple things and not worry more than I have to.
We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.
I think the "traditonally-raised" part these actually is the problem with the orignal article. It seems to hold the tranditonal way of doing things as the gold standard of maturity. As though if you were inflexable, but utterly reliably to do whatever mindless task you'd been trained to do that was "mature". That's no longer such an asset in society, and people are chinging. I think perhaps a better definition of maturity is the skills necessary to be a successful, productive, happy member of society.
So something like: If you can't deal with society's rules, you aren't socially mature. If you can't succede in modern jobs you aren't intellectually mature. If you cannot find happiness in life you aren't emotionally mature. That kind of thing. That we don't defie it as some traditonal lifestyle to meet, but rather as having a good life in the world as it is today.
Also an interesting thing about the childless it is it perhaps a new kind of maturity that we have to accept. There is a limit to the number of people we can have in the world, that's just a simple fact. It would seem we are already pushing that limit too far. Well, it will eventually solve itself via things like starvation, but I think a better idea might just be to procreate less. Given the number of people who decide that they want to have more than two children, it is socially repsonsible to have no children. That is, of course, not to advocate everyone goes childless, but there's something to be said for those that don't have kids.
I just don't think that the definition of maturity as "Living your life like the last generation" is a useful one.
When you are 6 you are unburdened by the full weight of reality
What weight? Is there a physical cinder block upon you? Put it to the side then. All other weight, especially mental weight, is chosen by you. You are the one who decides if weight of your imagining is dragging you down or something to stand upon.
The point I am making is that being much older I have had many more experiences and am able to enjoy them in ways a six-year old is not, as I can enjoy more esoteric pleasure just as much as splashing in a puddle (alluded to in the words of the musical Chess with "The Queens we use would not excite you"). My higher level of awareness also leads to greater ability to experience joy. While it is true that also means a greater ability to experience esoteric suffering, I would not give my far vaster scope of ability to simply feel more just because sometimes there is pain. There was pain when I was six as well so what would be the difference except that by opting to stay six forever I would wish myself to be enclosed in a box.
Have you ever read Flowers For Algernon? There is a reason why that story is a sad tale instead of a joyous return to a blissful state of ignorance.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Adulthood is...
Doing what you must do, before doing what you want to do.
Doing the right thing, especially when no one will ever know.
Knowing that your actions and words affect those near you.
Realizing that like it or not, every word and deed has a consequence; often unforseen.
Understanding implicitly that in spite of the previous two items, the world does not revolve around you.
Women are like electronics: you don't know how damaged they are until you try to turn them on.
Nu-uh! You're a poopy-head!
If only there was a way to mod parent "Oh, hell yes." I'd give a different that is close to making sense like interesting, but I've been M2ed "unfair" like crazy lately on textbook moderations, such as redundant for people copying and pasting the article from sources that have no registration requirements, no signs of /. effect kicking in, etc. So I'll just post anonymously instead.
It's obvious from the posts here that about two people RTFA before posting. What the article is basically saying is that flexibility of mind is essentially a childhood trait. Societal pressures are forcing people to retain a more and more flexible mind with the result that the mind does not reach a "mature" state with side effects "including short attention span, sensation and novelty-seeking, short cycles of arbitrary fashion and a sense of cultural shallowness." Although I'd really question that last bit "a sense of cultural shallowness." Academics often complain about this so called modern phenomenon, but don't provide any statistics to back this up. I claim that this idea is patently false. While there may be certain literary, musical and artistic works that were once held as great art which are being largely ignored today the fact is two generations ago the vast majority of people had no hope of being exposed to these works of art and culture, it was simply the elite (I.E. wealthy) who really had a chance to experience them. I feel that there are more people interested in and actively participating in deep culture now than were 100 years ago. You just won't find them if you sit in your ivory tower, you have to go across the street to the art galleries and coffee houses to find them. You won't hear great musical innovation on the radio, but have to go to small seedy bars and clubs to find the musicians pushing the envelope further and refining and expanding the art, just as you did with the jazz greats.
One important question to ask is whether "maturity" in the for the article talks about does not come, or if it simply sets on later than it used to. If maturity does not ever set in, then I could see obvious negative effects. However, if it simply is taking longer for people to reach maturity, that would mean a world of a difference. This means that people have more time to gather data and obtain different opinions before their general world view is cemented. It may also mean that in times past, people were forced to suddenly mature before they were actually ready resulting in a mind that is not as fully developed, similar to how a fruit that is picked when still green and force ripened in transit will not taste as good or be as nutritious as one picked fresh when ripe. One very likely cause of delayed maturity is having children of your own. Having children often forces people to adopt a mature role, but these days it makes more and more sense to delay having children untill the economic security that comes with a degree and experience in the workplace has already been achieved. Untill that time a person is free to live for the moment a little. And acting a little immature (I.E. seeming like a fun and interesting person to be around) really is in itself a necessary ingredient to courting a mate to have that first child with.
That said, I would probably find the paper that the researcher is writing to be an interesting read. I might question some of his conclusions and even research methods, but it's still an interesting concept and one worth thinking about.
"Oh no.. i dived off the edge of bridge and cracked my head open because i didn't check first for things in the water.. it's not my fault somebody didn't put a sign up, it's the councils fault! Yeah.. let's sue them!"
Or in politics where the politician is NEVER at fault, it is always someone else.
I don't need to test my programs.. I have an error correcting modem.
Unfortunately the dumber you are the more kids you have, all the dumb people I know have multiple kids, all the smart successful ones have none.
If it was reversed then civilization would have been much further ahead by now.
Bush and Blair ate my sig!
And it wasn't the paradise you remember. Sure, someone stealing you jump rope was you biggest problem, but at the time you felt like it was the end of the world. You would often throw fits, yell, and generally colapse. Now we look back at that stuff and think how easy we had it, because we have grown up and can handle it.
Instead of "wishing to be six," I want to learn to be a adult that thinks like a six-year-old. I want to be able to deal with problems in a responcible manner, but still understand the fun of silly hats. I want to understand that there are bad things in the world, but still meet the world with smiles and a it-will-work-out deminer. We have the misconception that we must be cyical adults just because we have reached a certain age. I'm going to be a kid forever!
Oh, and remember, if you became 6 again, you would have your teenage years to look forward to *shudder*
I give bread to the poor, they call me a saint.
I ask why the poor have no bread, they call me a communist.
Well I think that's because of our daily life. Humans tend to follow different patterns which they think bring some kind of "order" to life, and those people who think in a really different way are usually treated as "freaks" by society.
It's not due to human nature that adults lack sense of wonder, but a human behavior because he/she once learnt that thinking and acting in some particular way you can get better results.
Now, it's really hard for me to define what "maturity" is after saying that. Isn't it just a learnt human behavior ?? and if it is, how can we judge people by that then ??
cheers
You hint it right on the noggen; the number of so-called adults who seem to have the maturity of a child seems to be an increasing phenomenon in our society; I just look down the road and on the news; the 'everyone elses fault except my own' syndrome. There are people on the benefit having children, knowing full well they don't have the funds to pay for the associated costs, we have couples having more children than they can afford, then demanding that the tax payer for the bill for their lifestyle choice.
All this is actually a biproduct of our modern day welfare state, and the nanny state complex which people have adopted, that we shouldn't take responsibility for our actions, because good old nanny state will always be there to whipe out bottoms, and stop us from doing moronic things.
Regarding smoking, the health issues have been known for over 60 years, if people CHOOSE to live under a rock, and REFUSE to take in the information that is readily out there, who is to blame? I don't blame the cigarette companies - they're like any other company, make their product look sexy, close over any possible health issues, and keep on pushing.
If you're going to blame cigarette for the associated health costs of smoking, why not allow people to sue fast food companies who fail to put warning labels and advertise that if their product is consumed in excess, it could cause health problems? why not extend it to the confectionary and snake food companies? heck, why not put a big sticker on cars that warn that due to the bad driving of others, you could possibly die!
Honestly, it is getting to the point where I ask, when are people going to take responsibility for their actions - that is the cornerstone of being an adult, making your choices and accepting the consequences of those choices.There is a limit to the number of people we can have in the world, that's just a simple fact. It would seem we are already pushing that limit too far.
The world isn't over-populated. Some parts of the world are overpopulated. I believe Japan has recently been experiencing negative population growth, and Australia is predicted to in the near future. That is why, in Australia at least, they introduced new tax breaks for new parents - because, especially as people live longer past retirement, there are not going to be enough people to keep the country running to the same standard as it is now.
Of course, compare that to countries like China, with its noted overpopulation problems, or India (not exactly sure on that one; India is heavily populated, not sure if it's overpopulated). It seems to me the countries that have large populations are generally those where it is beneficial for the family unit to have a large number of children (generally agricultural societies). In Western societies, having children is more a case of personal desire, rather than economic desirability. Therefore fewer people opt to have children, and those that do have fewer children.
I don't think it's some sort of global population "invisible hand", I think it's simply people doing what they feel is best for them. The effect that may have on the local, national or global population is incidental, not the cause of the phenomenon.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
The fact that that was modded insightful is proof of this phenomena. And also a little ironic.
What is the formal definition of maturity ? I RTFA and didn't see one so its impossible to agree or disagree with it.
One definition is the idea that mature people "don't like silly things." I personally think these people need a pie in the face. Life is hard, life is stressful, and sometimes you just have to enjoy the silly and simple things.
The other definition (and I feel the more relevant one) is the responsibility factor. I would say "accountability" works better than "responsibility," even though responsibility is how everyone is refuring to it. As for this, I feel it is definately true that people aren't accountable enough. People (in America at least) seem to be told to watch themselves, and people stop looking out for the guy next to them. We all affect each other, and we all need to be accountable for that. NO PERSON IS AN ISLAND.
The trick is to take the best of both worlds. Enjoy a good pie fight, but have the courtecy to help clean up
I give bread to the poor, they call me a saint.
I ask why the poor have no bread, they call me a communist.
There was several articles a few weeks ago about how public education in the USA was designed to keep people in a child-like state. In particular, keeping people from reaching stage 5 (where there are shades of grey and no one right way) seems to be important. It's much easier to control the populace if they see everything in black and white. Preventing the populace from maturing to the point where laws are social contracts... keeping them in a state where laws are absolute... must seem like utopia to certain politicians.
What the hell *is* 'mental maturity'? No really? Having an IQ of 150? Or an EQ of 240?
I dare claim that whomever came up with the term 'mental maturity' was mentally immature enough to come up with a better term.
I mean, a man/woman is physically 'mature' when all the reproductive organs have fully developed and the person is capable of human reproduction.
Are you mentally mature when you start thinking about sex more then your gameboy? What?
I say the entire term 'mental maturity' is popular marketing speak for 'total nonsense'...
>sometimes the 6-year-old has it right. "Why don't people just talk instead of having wars?"
Have you've ever seen two 6 year olds fight over a useless toy both of them will forget in about 2 hours?
Have you've ever seen a 6 year old go into extreme crying/temper tantrum mode causing fustration to their parents (you know, the ones who feed and love them) just because they can't get a small shiny colourful package of candy?
Sometimes 6 year olds don't have it right.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Unfortunately the dumber you are the more kids you have, all the dumb people I know have multiple kids, all the smart successful ones have none.
Surely it depends on your definition of success and not everyone works towards the same goals in life. If sucess is having a big house, international holidays and a fast car....then you might want to forget about the kids. However, for me success is having a happy family. I much prefer to spend days playing with my children than staying in some luxury resort. So in that way when I have children I am successful as I am achieving my goals.
I have a friend who has 12 children in the UK. It seems extreme but I have never seen a family who are as happy, polite, well mannered and as educated. I don't think it is true that the dumber you are the more kids you have. The parents of these children are like walking encyclopedias and have knowledge of so many things in life. They are also generous and peaceful. I would say they have been successful in life. But the father drives a mini-bus rather than a sports car (he has to with 12 kids).
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10);'
And here is society's definition of Adulthood
Doing what the boss above tells you and never question it.
Accepting that everything that the boss/media tells you is the right thing.
Knowing that your place in life is to earn as much money as possible by any means so you can spend it on shiny things.
Realizing that anyone not confirming with these rules are evil or misguided.
Understand implicitly that the world revolves around those that tell you what to do.
Unfortunally, what I wrote is only half a joke. Too often maturity is seen as becoming a cog in society and do/think what others tell you.
There is enough food in the world to feed every human on the planet, though hundreds of people starve to death every day.
There would be enough shelter in the world too, if we only looked after what we had and built things to last.
Practical clothes can be churned out by machines in a matter of seconds, if we set them up and tell them to do it, yet much of what is worn in the so-called first world is made by hand by people leaving in poverty conditions in less-developed countries.
One can say similar things about medicine, education, the natural environment, and a host of other important issues.
What's the common thread among all of these shortcomings? A lot of adults haven't grown up, and still suffer from greed, selfishness, and other negative emotions. With the resources and technology we have available to humanity today, we could provide for every human being on the planet, and we could all work only 20 hours a week.
If you're an adult who has grown up, please consider what you can do to help. Make a small donation to a charity that supports someone less fortunate than you. Change something in your life to be a little more environmentally friendly. Volunteer a couple of hours of your time to a good cause. Have the courage to vote for a someone who stands for these values, even if they have no chance of getting elected (this time), and tell everyone why you voted that way.
The more people grow up, take some personal responsibility for the state of the world, and do their small part in improving it, the better life will be, and there's really nothing indulgent about it.
Or we could just say "Yeah, whatever" and make it someone else's problem. Not that that would be childish, or anything.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I think thhe "too many people" argument is simply wrong. As technology advances, the world can easily support more and more people. The environment is far better off than it was when I was a child, although it has close to twice as many people, and is still improving. The problem in the future will be a lack of population, as our societies all strongly discourages children by putting those who have them at a tremendous economic disadvantage.
I would guess that with careful use of new technologies (like genetic engineering) and moving some of industries off planet, earth could support something like 20 billion people. In fact it is unlikely to even see 9, and no one is sure where the population will level off once it starts shrinking.
In fact as all of our economic systems have evolved to cope with growing and not falling populations, it is not clear that we can cope with decling populations at all. Look at the political paralysis about funding retirement shemes in Japan, Germany and the USA. We might see a very long worldwide depression once the big two pops (India and China) start to decline as well, but as most of the readers here will most likely be dead, I guess it doesn't matter much.
Unfortunately these immature people can vote and sue. Their political attitudes basically boil down to an extended version of adolescent rebellion and "self-expression" that is all about self but neither contains substantive content that expresses an idea nor adds to the public discourse. They are usually against traditional social mores (especially religious mores) because they have a vague sense that tradition is somehow repressive of their "self-expression", but they can't really tell you why because they have to admit that any society must have rules to control bad behavior in order to make collective living bearable.
If you look closely, you'll see that those who protest the loudest about "self-expression" are usually the most conformist, but their conformity is within their own group. They will claim that weird hair, tattoos, and body piercing are about expressing themselves and they don't care what other people think, but here is what puts the test to their lie; All (or most) of their friends will also have weird hair, tattoos, and body piercing. They would never wear a plaid polyester leisure suit in front of their friends, precisely because they do care what their friends think and they have a need to conform within their own social group.
When these folks have an idea to express other than senseless reflexive nihilism, I'll be listening. But I'm not holding my breath.
Aren't they the little people who you see anoying everyone in public places because they won't stop crying their eyes out? I've always wondered what could be so awful about their lives that they feel the need to cry so much. You've done little to enlighten me.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
I think his point was much energy is wasted on the fancy shit. Luxury cars, when all we really need is a model T, so to speak. Buying those 'nice' clothes to impress your preferred sex, or the neighbors, or to show people that you have 'grown up' and can be 'taken seriously'.
Most of society and culture is wasteful and useless if your goal is to live and be happy.
Blar.
There are other aspects of our culture that dilute personal responsibility. Corporations, by design, insulate managers and shareholders from actions they benefit from personally. We're okay with that, though. No problems there. But if an INDIVIDUAL avoids responsibility, suddenly western civiliazation is in dire trouble. If a corporation files bankruptcy so the shareholders don't have to ante up to pay the debt for the entity they own, we don't bat an eyelash, but if Joe Sixpack declares Chapter 11 then we get all concerned about the state of humanity.
Government habitually hides behind secrecy to avoid responsibility. Where is the hue and cry? Why is it only the morons on Jenny Jones who get our contumely?
Accepting that one has responsabilities doesn't mean giving up on one's dreams.
Being friendly and joking with people is not the same as being immature.
Being serious all the time and totally giving up one's pleasure in life for the sake of family, community or just to be like everybody else is not maturity, it's being a drone (in my opinion, a sheep).
Real maturity is achieved when one achieves the level of self-confidence needed to outgrow the "fitting a mold just because thats what one is '(not) expected to do' behaviour" and one finds out it's possible to balance responsabilities and fun without beraking the first or giving up the second.
Unfortunately, our society is designed around the expectation that most people will "settle down", and become "hard-working family men/women". The push is constantly there to be a nice little drone, work hard to make money, buy loads of stuff that don't really make you happy (consume, consume, consume), become what your neighbours expect you to be and expect the same back from them, accept that you're just another average working stiff, accomodate and don't make waves.
BTW: Dressing up in a specific style (geek, retro, necro, whatever) to "make a statement", "be different" or "cause a reaction" can be just as much a form of "trying to belong", "accomodating to a sterotype" or in general "being relative to others" as wearing a suit for work - ask yourself "am i dressing this because of who i am or because of who i want to be?". Clothes are a tool - dressing a certain way can help you progress to certain aims, and it's what you are aiming at that matters, not what you wear.
I reject the traditional concepts of maturity. I refuse to spend my life doing things I don't like because of some outmoded notion of 'have to.'
Man I would hate to see your toilet, though you neighbours can probably smell it... I, on the other hand, still watch cartoons, still throw paper airplanes, but when I 'have to' do something I don't like to do, I fucking do it.
You can't take the sky from me...
The article did a rather piss-poor job of explaining what the research is suggesting, which is a pity because the topic is an interesting and complex one. Only one paragraph got the proper consequences:
:-), but to illustrate what almost everyone has experienced.
"People such as academics, teachers, scientists and many other professionals are often strikingly immature outside of their strictly specialist competence in the sense of being unpredictable, unbalanced in priorities, and tending to overreact."
So yes, childlike wonder and flexibility are good for learning new stuff, and tend to follow with a more dynamic society. The consequences of it are that people are going to be unbalanced, rash, irritable, and childish.
There is a guy I work with. He's in his mid-30s, and generally a nice guy. However at times (typically six or eight times a day) I want to scream at him, "GROW UP!!! Take some responsibility for what you're doing!!!" However, I don't. Now there are three 'maturity' issues at play here.
1) His lack of self-responsibility is immature (lack of responsibility)
2) My instinctive reaction is immature (ranting and raving like a kid)
3) My actions are mature (either nothing, talking to his manager, or talking to him professionally)
I bring this up not to prove my maturity (there are a lot of other cases that aren't so complimentary to me
In a modern workforce, I would expect that maturity equates fairly close to professionalism, and I can definitely say that I've seen a decline in professionalism in the last decade or so. Outside of the workplace, it's a bit trickier. People with kids who try to hard to be their kids' best friends and refuse to apply any discipline are a target, but it's a hard line to draw cleanly. Similarly, one poster mentioned that he and his wife have decided against having kids, because they're not done being kids themselves. This personally strikes me as a bit selfish (a fundamentally immature behaviour), but at the same time they seem remarkably mature in their immaturity.
At the base of it, I put a lot of the blame on pop culture and society. We venerate and idolise people who embody every negative aspect of immaturity (actors, rock stars, etc.) and naturally come to not only forgive but accept and rationalise their behaviour. At the same time, we know that getting stoned and trashing a hotel room is wrong, so we don't emulate them--however, the bar has already been set, and it's sitting in the mud. We have such a LOW standard of behaviour to exceed that an average eight-year-old is a more mature person than the stars who show up in the tabloids.
Society's final anti-maturity shot is the entire 'hide your age' industry. Makeup, surgery, and clothes are all designed to avoid aging, because aging reminds us of death. We're a culture so terrified of death that we'll spend billions to shove it under the rug. Unfortunately, that leads to consciously NOT acting like we think grown-ups should do, but rather as kids.
I could also mention a lawsuit-happy culture discouraging people from taking responsibilty for their own actions, but that would be another page of text, and this post is long enough already.
Maturity means responsibility. Taking responsibilty for your own life and your own actions, as well as acting responsibly and dealing responsibly with the actions of those around you. It is my personal belief that it doesn't necessarily preclude doing frivolous or foolish things when appropriate, but that historically it was never considered appropriate for adults to do such things. (Anyone remember Mary Poppins?) One exception has always been academics--the image of an absentminded or childlike genius professor is an old one indeed. In contemporary society, immature behaviour is allowed for all adults, and even encouraged. The new marque of maturity will be one who behaves in a mature and responsible fashion (a) when necessary, and (b) when desirable, but not necessarily (c) when not needed.
Maybe it's really a weakening of true maturity, but as long as (a) and (b) are achieved, I can happily deal with a society that has accepted (c).
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Adults do that too still. Just look at congress.
I am suprised there has been no reference to Rome just prior to it's fall. The reason the maturity level is lowering is directly related to the amount of maturity needed to survive. Rome was the mightiest civilization throughout history and it fell not from an outside intruder but from apathy from it's citizens. Rome had become so strong that the majority of it's people did not need to protect themselves for they were protected by Roman Centurions. As they became increasingly restless, and immature, Rome enacted the Bread & Circuses policy to provide food and entertainment to keep it's people engaged. Ultimately it could not stem the growing unrest and the people revolted. The current popularity of BLOGS is a perfect place to see the unrest in todays society.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
You even post replies like you have one.
("ppl"? give me a break... You are on SLASHDOT. Sorry.)
Wonder what the public key field is for?
People such as academics, teachers, scientists and many other professionals are often strikingly immature outside of their strictly specialist competence...
Again, I ask, what is the "research" described in the article using as a control or baseline? This is never discussed -- and it sounds like this "research" is nothing more than an elaborate opinion-piece. TFA even use David Brooks as a kind of "reference." I enjoy David Brooks, even if I don't always agree with him. He is a respectable social commentator and pundit, but he is ultimately a professional opinionist, not a respected psychological researcher.
Also, can someone help me out with this quote from the article:
Charlton added that since modern cultures now favor cognitive flexibility, "immature" people tend to thrive and succeed, and have set the tone not only for contemporary life, but also for the future, when it is possible our genes may even change as a result of the psychological shift. [bold emphasis mine]
Genes shifting as the result of a psychological shift? WTF? It was my understanding that genes needed a bit more than "psychology" to change. Are these guys implying a Lamarckian evolution based not even on physical characteristics but somehow "attitudes affecting evolutionary physiology"? With little snips like this, it makes this work seem very fishy to me, bordering on crackpotism.
Anyway, while the basic hypothesis has merit, the research the article describes doesn't seem to demonstrate or prove (or even have the ability to demonstrate or prove) the proposed effect.
i\hbar\dot{\psi}=\hat{H}\psi
You know, I believe you have got something here. Given the level of immaturity of the characters on "Friends", "Seinfield" and many other television programs combined with the behavior of the actors in various beer commercials, we may have lowered the bar for maturity. If the major media formats in our culture show examples of adult behavior that is, essentiallly, childish then who can blame the viewers for adopting those standards?
:)
I'm reminded of an ex-girlfriend who seemed to me to over-react to situations. I was puzzled until I realized that she was acting as if she were a character on a television program; where drama is important. We may have a couple of generations now doing the same thing.
Nice work.
No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
As an adult, I am subject to a wider variety of feelings and emotions than a 6 year old. Being an adult is more subtle - we gain access to joys that a child couldn't even understand. When you're six, you know happy, sad, fear, hungry, tired. As an adult you also can experience bemusement, irony, sarcasm, terror, bliss, longing, melancholy, and a host of other things that make the experience of just living through your day more deep and meaningful. Your mental palette is larger. Yes, it means you can be hurt or suffer in larger ways than a child. But you can also rise above them in ways a child could not. The game is bigger, so the rewards are bigger.
And speaking of the palette, food is an excellent way of describing the difference. As a 6 year old, all you crave is candy. Big ugly blocks of sugar. As an adult, you're complex enough to tell the difference between good sushi and bad. Really expertly done fresh sushi with fresh ground wasabi and some nice sake on the side is sublime, and that's the joy of it, and a child could never understand it. Think of how many things there are like that.
Another good reason - look at what you would have to go through today. At the risk of sounding like an Auld Farte, think about how bad teenagers have it today. All the good music is gone. Pepsi decides what is cool these days. You have three choices basically. Stupid thumping gangsta rap whose only function is to shake your car's quarter panels, bubblegum crap pop, or Nu Metal where guys with long hair get up in front of the mike, blast the distortion and whine about their relationships.
And you can't do anything fun or dangerous in this bubble-wrap world we've made. As soon as one kid gets hurt doing something it gets outlawed or regulated past the point of any fun whatsoever. How many childhood memories do you have where you were experiencing both big fun and mild danger at the same time? Are their any stories you have about your childhood that you haven't told your parents yet because you don't want to give them a heart attack? Kids today will never have those kinds of vivid childhood memories. We've outlawed them.
If God All-Mighty came down from the clouds and told me he would be willing to make me a six year old again, I would politely decline. I've got it better now than I've ever had it, and I feel genuinely sorry for children born in this time.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Well, here's the deal with tradition. Obviously, slavish devotion to an idea or behavior simply because it is "tradition" is not always a good thing. But *most* traditional mores are a good thing (as I will explain later). I don't think acting reflexively is good, but not everyone will engage in deep reflection before they decide to take a particular action. If somebody needed a quick guide of right or wrong in regards to a course of action (i.e if one had to quickly pick between reflexive acceptance of tradition and reflexive rejection) then the acceptance would be better. In other words, its better to error on the side of caution.
Human societies (note the plural) are not young. There have been many trials and errors of different ways of organizing society from simple hunter-gather societies to urban industrial societies. Over the many generations, a certain wisdom gets distilled about what works and does not work. You might think of it as a form of social evolution where useful behavior/ideas are selected (i.e. socially encouraged or rewarded) and harmful behavior/ideas get non-selected (punished/discouraged). The selection of good behavior can range from a mild form such as being considered trusted as honest to stronger forms such as achieving higher social status and privilege . The non-selection of harmful behavior/ideas can range from strong forms such as criminalization to milder forms such as shunning or scolding. This selection of good behavior is transmitted to the next generation as a traditional social moral
So what you will find is that traditional mores are adopted because they served some social good. Now the traditional mores that most people dwell are those involving sexual behavior. So, lets talk about that. First consider the social goal (i.e. "the Good Thing [tm]) that you want to encourage. In most societies, it has been protecting and providing for the weakest members of society, the children. Most societies, through trial and error, have determined over the generations that best way to provide for children is to have a strong and stable family where at least both parents are available to support the children. Sexual behavior, obviously has a strong impact on families from the actual conception of children to the drama and turmoil that follow adultery. Consequently, social rules in this area revolve around those dedicated to discouraging behavior that would undermine families or lead to children without support. So these social rules were not adopted to sexually repress people or crimp their fun, but to protect the weak.
No obviously, some past traditions have either outlived their usefulness or were never useful at all (such as racism). Perhaps they were based on pure superstition or the way of life has change sufficiently to render them obsolete. But more often than not, neither is the case, because they are usually about human nature and human nature does not change.
As far as hypocrisy and religion goes, just because somebody does not follow his own advice does not mean the advice itself is not sound, it just means he is weak and imperfect. And most of the traditional mores that are incorporated into religion can stand on their own. The bible may say "don't commit adultery" and "don't murder", but adultery and murder are bad ideas independent of the bible. More likely than not, the ideas were incorporated into the religion, because they were good ideas to begin with, rather than being pulled out of thin air
So to reflexively reject social convention, just because you can, really is a sign of immaturity. As I stated before, its really just adolescent rebellion (and hubris), to think you are smarter than the several thousand generations before you.
Sure, one ought to avoid getting into a situation where the child will be tired and cranky, but...
Once it happens, you have to live with it. The parents who allow themselves to be controlled by a screaming fit are the ones who will get screaming fits. The kids wants control. The kid isn't stupid. If screaming makes you cave, then screaming is what you will get. It's training a kid to scream whenever he gets annoyed.
There is a way you can re-experience the joys of childhood (and they are many) while maintaining the rich experience of adulthood.
Become a parent. Then spend lots of time with your children.
-- QED
And you sound too old... and maybe a little bitter. Is this a way of telling everyone that you wished you were a "sufficently self centered and ... are pathetic middle aged man sponging off his parents and frittering away all his time on their broadband connection"?
Bitter?
No. It only sounds that way because of the general paucity of irony in the world.
I think of this as an optimistic viewpoint.
What I'm saying is nobody is pathetic -- or at lest nobody needs to feel pathetic. And if you don't feel pathetic, then the contempt of others is a waste of time. It's the person who is disturbed by others who don't measure up to his values is closer being pathetic than the object of his scorn. If the only way you notice other people is to scorn them, then the person who doesn't notice other people at all is better off.
The example I used was chosen to be the most conventionally contemptible one I could come up with. Apparently it hit some moderator a bit close to home.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
The burden caused by a mortgage and bills are not an illusion. They are quite real. And they are not something you can 'stand upon'.
A mortgage is determined by what you choose to buy, where you choose to live. Some choose to live without a mortgage by saving enough to pay for housing outright or wandering the earth with a backback.
Mortgages and bills all represent payments for things you have chosen, and in at least one way they are indeed something you can stand upon for they are all tools for establishing good credit in order to acquire larger loans in the future - if indeed that is your choice.
Nothing is inherently wrong with choosing the life of a large mortgage and some debt over the life the monastic wanderer. Just don't think fate handed you that mortgage any more than it put the backpack on the pack of the wanderer.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Let me tell you a joke about nostalgia. Two veterans meet at some war-ending aniversary and have a little chat:
"Ah, do you remember when they captured us and took us to a concentration camp?"
"Oh yeah."
"And how they wanted to take us to the gas chamber?"
"Aw man, how can I forget that?"
"And then there was this bombing raid, explosions everywhere and we ran through a hole in the fence? And they chased us with dogs and we hid in the swamp for a week?"
"Oh yeah. Man, those were the good times."
Well, admittedly, childhood usually isn't _that_ bad, but still, everyone remembers the good parts, but never remembers the annoyances and frustrations. Or remembers some sanitized rose-tinted version of them. I suppose it must be some mechanism of the brain to stay sane.
But if I'm to really remember childhood, and without even going into the parts that were due to my parents being... well, completely unfit to be parents, it wasn't _that_ idyllic anyway.
E.g., take school alone. I could read since the age of 3. In fact, I could read and write in two foreign languages by the time I got into school. I could calculate a transformer or solve other physics problems up to that level. (I guess I must have asked something like "why is the sky blue?" and my parents, god bless their totally nerdy souls, gave me a physics book.) And yet there I was in school required to write a page of oblique lines or loops. Or to write a page worth of the letter "a". How boring is that?
And that's just one of many issues.
On the whole, I'll go and say I'm actually a _lot_ happier as an immature adult than I ever was as a child.
_Now_ I can actually do what I want. If I want a chocolate, I can go buy a chocolate. If I want to buy a doll, I can go buy a doll. (Or The Sims, which is one hell of a doll house simulator.;) If I want to stay up late playing with it, I can jolly well stay up and play with it. Back then I had a ton of people who knew better what I should be doing, what I should be thinking, what I should be saying, etc.
As for Calvin and Hobbes, or Winnie the Pooh, they're not written by a kid. They're written by an adult, and through rose-coloured nostalgia glasses _and_ from second-guessing the "enemy" at that. They see "man, this kid never listens to a word I say", or "man, he's throwing a tantrum again when I'm trying to teach him proper manners", and from there they go and paint some image of the kid being completely care-free and living in some imaginary wonderland. They don't however, see the frustrations like being treated like a brainless idiot. Or the frustration of that "teaching manners" meaning "Moraelin, say 'hello' to the nice lady?"... again... in front of 10 strangers and 2 of my friends. Or about a hundred other little issues.
In fact, I'll go and say that all that seeing the kid as a care-free brainless _idiot_ is just... selective confirmation. People start with the preconceived idea that the kid is inherently retarded and unable to ever comprehend adult logic, and from there remember every detail that confirms that, but conveniently forget the details that don't. Or acts like they're some one-in-a-million occurance that's surely just a freak accident.
And let me also say that a lot of the time, "adult logic" _isn't_. Adults are just as good as kids at rationalizing backwards from what they'd like, to some half-arsed unconvincing "facts" to justify it with. E.g., they start from some pre-conceived wish, like that they want to go camping or fishing (bonus points when it's just to fit in some group, not because they actually like it), and from there work their way backwards to some half-arsed justification, like that shivering in a tent in the rain builds character or that fishing is some kind of valuable RL skill. (How? What for? Exactly in which situation can one possibly catch enough fish with a fishing rod to support a family that way?) Even when they actually do have a point there, they're so convinced that you're an idiot and can't possibly
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
I agree. It's best to responsible but maintain playfullness and a childlike sense of wonder, to do otherwise would be to stagnate and die mentally.
*It's not what you can do for the Dark Side but what the Dark Side can do for you!*