Slashdot Mirror
Internet Giving Homeless a Home
Wired is reporting that many individuals currently without permanent housing still manage to stay connected via a cellphone, laptop, or some other gadget. Many homeless have email addresses and find that it offers them a way to get their foot back in the door of 'normal' society. From the article: "Hellerich slept on benches but she frequented a women's shelter with a cluster of internet-connected computers used mostly by the children who arrived at the safe house with their mothers. She started blogging and conducting a business. As an independent internet marketer, she was able to maintain bank accounts, nurse existing client connections and forge new business relationships. The business brought in only about $100 a month, but that was enough to help get her life back on track."
Wake up scuttle, you can't run a story like this without linking to thinkgeek!
There's no place like 127.0.0.1
In all seriousness, there are many homeless folks in this world not all of them have the opportunity to get back on their feet.
Most homeless people aren't there by choice and there are lots of folks who are just 1 pay check away from joining them, spare a thought when your walking around town and if you have some change give generously.
liqbase
independent internet marketer? Spammer?
Mod point free since 2001
Instead of cell phones and laptops... couldn't that money be put towards better things, like... I dunno... food
Show this to your friends and family that don't know what a real hacker is
"And it's appearently the library."
Apparently it has dictionaries.
I reserve the write to mangle english.
The woman in the TFA wasn't exactly homeless homeless. She was staying in a shelter and so able to keep clean and not smell of pee, have clean clothes and so on. I don't imagine anyone going off to 'forge new business relationships' if they hadn't brushed their teeth for a week so I'd say the general 'technology is so great it evens rescues the homeless' message is hype. Even charging up your cell isn't going to be easy when you're sleeping under a bridge.
spoonerize "magic trackpad"
HELL YEAH
Graham Walker (website) is a well known Big Issue seller around my area of the UK, and to my knowledge he's been online for a while now.
Don't take the above poster too seriously. He doesn't.
Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
People living in coffin 'hotels', doing micro-scale low-revenue high-thoughput business and paying half of what they earn to stay connected to whatever net is hip at the moment. If they're 'richer' they have a container storage somewhere where they keep their stuff. Most of the money won't be payed to own stuff but to have access to things. Homeless will get a new kind of definition. We're seeing societies like this building allready - in Japan for instance, where the cost of living is so high you're a dropout almost as soon as you lose a job. Without the last straw called 'Hartz 4' we'd have the very same situation in germany aswell. In the future it will be very much like in the Novels Neuromancer and Snow Crash in some places.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
As we all know, poor people are a huge problem in our great nation, therefore, they must be eliminated.
Maybe you're even worse than a Democ-rat - you might even be a Euro-hippy. Stop polluting our minds with your socialist nonsense like science or worse, "Linux" - we all know the true history.
Fortunately, I have an idea to solve these problems. I call it A Modest Proposal:
What do we have an excess of in the USA? That's right - LIBERALS. These tend to be exactly the poor homeless people who can't afford to buy Operating Systems like Microsoft Genuine Advantage Windows, and must make do with the inferior communist alternatives. Remember, these are the people who actually OPPOSE the war on terror in Iraq, even after September 11 showed how evil Saddam Hussein was!
Also, we import much of our oil from disgusting foreigners (like Venezualans, who we must liberate soon BTW). Why don't we grind up the liberal hobos who lower valuable property prices in our neighborhoods, and use the oil from their bodies to power up our SUVs?
This way everyone wins.
What do you think, slashdot.org?
certain sentences like "Many of those now living without a permanent roof over their heads have cell phones in their pockets or laptop computers at their hips. While people living in shelters and alleys have found it difficult to cross social divides, the digital divide seems to disappear on the streets. Nearly all homeless people have e-mail addresses, according to Michael Stoops, director of the National Coalition for the Homeless." are at danger of giving to the status of being homeless a certain romantic feel. despite i don't have first hand experience, I think there is nothing romantic about being homeless, especially in BECOMING one.
you people, writing and commenting this article, could maybe take a moment to think about why there are homeless, or why there MUST be homeless. why the rich countries like USA and UK abund in homeless people, why although they have more than enough to help other countries, they won't help their own people in their own streets.
PS: Should any of you, especially the most cynical ones, have the luck to experience the transition to homeless, please remember to post an article on slashdot with your personal experience, when you have a minute to spare in your busy life of homeless internet entrepreneurs.
~ sweet ~
Well, that's the thing. Extreme capitalism is just another form of extreme opression: work like a dog and do what you're told, or be homeless. That's the biggest problem with not having a liveable minimum wage... everyone lives in fear of losing their paycheck.
Ex nihilo nihil fit.
Oh NO, even the homeless have Beowulf clusters! Am I the ONLY ONE left on the planet who doesn't run a cluster??
8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
The group we lump together as homeless are really at least 2 distinct groups. Group 1 are individuals and families who lack a support network such as family or friends, or may just be too proud to impose upon them. These people can be given a helping hand and can re-integrate into society. Group 2 are the chronic homeless. They are the alcoholics, the drug addicts, the mentally insane. Their only goal in life is their next drink. You can institutionalize them or let them be on the street, but you can't help them. And for every yuppie do-gooder out there who wants to help them, please don't ever give a homeless person money. There are extensive networks run by churches and non-profit groups to distribute food to the hungry. There are no programs to distribute cheap vodka. That requires do-gooders to give them money to purchase the liquor. Give the homeless guy in a park a sandwhich, he's liable to throw it back at you. He'll never say no to the quarter though. Funny huh?
I used to volunteer at a local homeless shelter -- nobody was contemplating getting hooked up to the internet or starting a career. Most of the people in these places are mentally unstable folks who were kicked out of institutions starting in the 80's when funding was slashed or drug/alcohol addicts who simply cannot function in society.
These folks need medical help, not email.
Maybe its different in California... but I doubt it.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
What does "many" mean? Is it even a dozen? Out of the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of people living on the streets across the US & Europe? Many of these people have barely 2 cents to rub together for food, they ain't blogging, they ain't emailing and they ain't staying connected via cellphone ... Some of them have alcohol problems, some of them drug problems, some suffer from depression or other such problems, and their first concern is living to tomorrow.
As someone mentioned it's a hype story, stuff like this shouldn't be published. Fair dues to anybody who can get off the streets, but any story focussing on homeless should be looking at the majourity (99.9%) who are STILL on the streets and need help.
Rant over.
in Japan for instance, where the cost of living is so high you're a dropout almost as soon as you lose a job.
Japan has a similar cost of living as the rest of the West. Don't be fooled by surveys that measure the cost of living for expats, as expats have very different spending patterns than natives, especially when the culture and diet is so different. The homeless problem that suddenly popped up in the 1990's in Japan was caused by insurance providers and banks going bankrupt at the same time as large numbers of middle class workers were laid off. The same could happen in the US due to the reliance on private providers for social services. The Japanese experience is a good example of why the Government really should be the one providing these services.
I wonder if the hobo that stole my bag is ebaying my PDA and magic cards...
-Eric
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
...that the Internet is shrinking everybody's social life.
We're all hypocrites. We all have hidden parts, it's the contrast between them that make us more a hypocrite than others
Maybe I can give a little first hand background. I was in a relationship with a homeless man for a year 1999 - 2000. We had met and I liked him very much, went on a few dates, was surprised to find out he was homeless because he had a phone number and we emailed each other all the time. He had lost his house a few years prior, and had lived on the streets, shelters on occasion (not so easy for men to get access to shelters actually) and on occasion in churches that were sympathetic. His cellphone and internet access were very important for a few reasons, first of all they allowed him to keep in touch with a support network that could help when necessary. If he absolutely had to get off the streets because the weather was too bad for street sleeping and no shelter room, he could often find a place to crash because he could easily contact friends who could put him up for the night, people he knew before he became homeless and also other homeless people who had gotten into SROs (single room occupancy) and would let him crash on their floor. The cell phone and email also was a great aid in navigating the world of social services... organizations to help him find housing, his caseworkers, his doctor and find work here and there. It is very hard to get a job without a phone number you can be reached at, and without a home you don't have a landline... cellphone might be your only chance at getting the job that will help put you back on your feet.
If someone he knew and knew of his situation had an odd job that needed doing he could be contacted by cellphone so that he could make some money. He made good money this way, fixing people's computers. All it takes is a cellphone, a little knowledge of computers, and some flyers reading "need help with your computer, affordable computer help, call peter at 555-5555" is all it takes to make a few bucks. Later on he became unable to walk more than a few steps and was confined to a wheelchair, cellphone and email helped him get the info he needed to get a wheelchair which was paid for by his ssi or adap or something, i forget. It also helped out the day his brand new wheelchair wheel fell off while he was going down a hill... he wasn't too badly hurt, but with the cellphone he could reach a friend in the area who could help him get back to his place. I mean this is putting technology to good use, I think... a little different from texting your friends mindless banter and what not.
Something that a lot of people don't realize is that there are a lot of programs out there for people with these sorts of problems and guess what, most case workers, people at shelters have no idea what is out there in terms of services. Its not their fault, its a lot of stuff to be on top of. Using the internet many people are able to be their own caseworkers, learn about the system, how to find what they need and get the services they need to get back on their feet. They can be more proactive and not just hope that their caseworkers know what they're doing... many do not. you know what else you can find on the internet, housesitting opportunities...
Peter finally managed to navigate the system and managed to get himself a room at a pretty nice sro, shared kitchen... but private rooms and baths. He wouldn't have been able to get it if there was no way for his caseworker to get in touch with him. nobody is going to go find you on the street if your benefits have been approved... people need to get in touch with you.
When peter moved into the place, I met a lot of other people and learned about how they ended up in their situation, and how they were dealing. One of the things that I found striking was that a lot of families are broken up by this, women are granted housing along with daughters but men aren't... the idea is that you give to the people who most need the services... but it builds into the system absentee father'ism... eliminates one of the means of support, the family unit. Many places will not allow men in at all. Fathers and sons left to fend for themselves. Fath
What the hell planet do you live on that means that homeless people aren't allowed to get out of their heads, but smug, patronising bastards like you are? Or that homeless people aren't capable of making life choices for themselves?
If you're homeless, living on benches, without access to washing facilities for your clothes or your body, without healthcare, regularly getting the shit kicked out of you by smug bastards, being permanently drunk/high is a completely rational, positive choice, compared to the horror of facing all this sober.
Really, I thought we'd all taken a step forward since the 'rescue' charities of the C19th.
The only thing you can accurately describe as "Scotch" is a sticky tape made by 3M. And it's
That's actually a possibility...
How is that guy so good at predicting EVERYTHING.
~= scwizard =~
Sweet now with couple grand she spent on a laptop with the money she pays for the cell phone she can the 100 bucks a month to buy wireless internet for her computer! Finally she broadcast her miseries on YouTube, yes!
To quote Franklin D. Roosevelt:
"Our greatest primary task is to put people to work. This is no unsolvable problem if we face it wisely and courageously."
With the enormous power we have with the Internet, we could help bring together those people looking for work and those who need their services. It seems to me that the sticking point is usually that neither of them has any money. But, if they could trade some sort of on-line IOUs, and try to honor them, perhaps there is some solution.
I'm baffled as to how to go about it, but so many people simply looking for work is wrong. If a man is willing to offer his labor, there are needs out there to be filled. To leave him idle wastes his talents and damages his pride.
Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
There are many variations of this aphorism coming from many cultures. I distinctly recall seeing an earlier slashdot posting (many moons ago) where the fishing version was claimed as having come from the bible; however, moments later the mistaken slashdotter was corrected by a man familiar with Chinese philosophy.
For many of us coffee is as bad as crack...
...for those who aren't mentally ill or physicly incapacitated. I once asked a homeless guy who was a former highway worker, now partly physicly disabled, if he had a HS diploma (he didn't). He told me it didn't matter--having an address was far more important, since when he was fully enabled and had an address he had no trouble picking up work as kitchen help in a restaurant. One solution to this problem might be to require employers to accept "General Delivery, (ZIP code)" as an address on a job application. Really. Also, has your employer ever really had a need to visit your physical location, and if they did, wouldn't you just be creeped out anyway?
I haven't RTFA, but I've been a fan of the Homeless Guy blog for a while now (he mentions being included in the Wired article). His site is at http://thehomelessguy.blogspot.com/, he's living in Nashville, TN right now. He has many enlightening comments on who makes up the homeless population, how politics and "aid" affect them, and the impact of stereotypes. A good read.
-mix
Many are also homeless due to mental illness. Everyone in the 70's cried out against state mental hospitals because of the poor conditions in them so they closed them. The problem is that the patients didn't go away and they lost touch with them. They didn't get the medications they needed anymore (which were supposed to be a substitute for the hospitals).
A significant number I'm sure are homeless by choice. They will tell you that they enjoy not being responsible to anyone or anything. They get plenty of handouts and most like to drink a lot. Clothing is never a problem, I've removed TONS of old clothes near hidden abandoned homeless camps.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
I was wondering why I was suddenly getting this spam:
"Can you spare 50 cents? A buck, come'n buddy, a buck! Hey...hey...pretty lady, yah you! Com'n give me some change! I'm a veteran with a wife and kids, I swear! Don't you care about vets and kids?..."
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
"an independent internet marketer
[...]
But she lives in fear that at any point, circumstances could throw her back into the urban wilderness."
Like if she gets busted for spamming?
Homeless spammers. Blade Runner arrives ahead of schedule.
--
make install -not war
Every time we increase the minimum wage, some people become unemployable. Nobody is going to get paid more than they are worth. We've also made the hiring process expensive. All sorts of dumb questions need to be asked.
Paying a person $1/hour to scrape gum off the parking lot might really help the person... if this were not illegal.
In India, there are people who cut grass with scissors.
No, it's not.
I wonder if do people in poor countries have such an opportunity, as we see lots of "digital inclusion" projects, such as the telecenters from Sao Paulo, Brazil - http://www.telecentros.sp.gov.br/ ?
Does anyone have any information about this?
This deserves its own thread as I've seen a few comments about people making a lot of money begging. The Straight Dope recently addressed this issue...
The poor bugger's homeless and you just slashdotted him!
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
What if the US Government gave everyone an official email address for life? They wouldn't have to run an actuall email service but let everyone set up that address to point to their current address. I used to have a Bigfoot email addy like that.
I drank what? -- Socrates
For a counter-example, look at Ivan Massow who at one stage was living homeless on the streets of Bristol, but later became a millionaire businessman.
We have a similar program in Cincinnati, Ohio called Streetvibes People buy the magazines for 30 cents and sell them for 1 dollar. The articles themselves are also all written by volunteers, mostly the same people that sell them.
There was a guy I met once who had literally a 5 minute skit worked out to try to convince people to give him money. He would be standing in a parking lot pretending to be talking on a pay phone to his mother about how his nearby car had run out of gas. As someone walked by, he would loudly tell his "mom" to hold on a second and approach the person walking by, placing special emphasis on the word "mom" to be sure that other people could hear it.
I didn't give him any money, but I've wondered a lot about the guy since. He could have just been a run of the mill con artist I suppose, since I don't remember his clothes really indicating that he was definitely homeless. The thing that keeps bugging me about him, is that I'm positive they aren't enough people in the area he was doing this for him to make more than $5 an hour. His skit, while obviously fake, was really presented with a lot of energy and effort. If he was willing to put as much effort into flipping burgers as he did into this skit he would make substantially more money. So I keep wondering if there is something psychological about him that makes him think he is coming out more ahead by cheating people out of their money than by making it at a job.
I could be completely off base about him, and it could be that he makes more money doing that than I think. However, I worry that giving to someone not providing a service might in some people reinforce the mentality that you are earning more money if someone just gives it to you, even though in aggregate you are earning less than minimum wage. That's why I love buying papers from streetvibes sellers. I know I'm only reinforcing positive behavior.
How about if the US government spent some of the $1 TRILLION we're going to spend on the Iraq War on giving war veterans a home?
--
make install -not war
Not all marketeers are black!
It's been long known that italans are cell phone addicts, but last time I was in Rome I was really surprised to see two bums, one an old guy in a wheelchair and a nose half as big and just as red as the red wine bottle on his lap, the other a young girl with a baby, both talking on a cell phone. Two things I don't understand: they certainly don't buy it themselves, so who gives it to them ? And I'd think that those people are excluded/marginalized, so who do they talk to ?
Non-Linux Penguins ?
I dropped out of high school in 11th grade, and began learning computer graphics and digital audio engineering in a vocational community college program, which I also never completed.
The reason I could not complete these classes, was due to the fact that I couldn't afford to goto school AND support myself AMD my mother. I literally had to support myself and my mother from the time I was 17, until I was 25. It was horrible! Luckily, I was able to use my PEL grant from community college to get myself a decent computer (celeron 300a) back then, and was able to acquire a great amount of skills and experience, thanks to some really smart and talented friends on IRC.
I call it: Better learning through IRC.
When I wanted to learn a new programming language, I could easily find someone on IRC to help get me pointed in the right direction, until I eventually learned enough to walk on my own. I have to thank those IRC characters for helping push me into a job, where as everyone else around me was pushing me into the gutter.
There is a lot to be said about Open Source Learning, and internet-based home/self education, and I owe it (and them) a lot of thanks.
the only permanence in existence, is the impermanence of existence.
An interesting blog by a homeless man in Abbotsford. There was an report about this guy and the plight of the homeless in general on April 5 on CBC, but the report doesn't seem to be available online.
How was parent not marked as flamebait? You pussy!
"Patience is not a virtue, it's a waste of time."
There's always the edge-cases, and you always have people who are temporarily homeless when transitioning between schools or jobs.
I just get pissed off when self-righteous people go on about "saving" people with stupid shit like email or voice mailboxes, spare change or free cell phones. Especially when the people whom they are helping are in the state that they are in because they need care that their family can't or won't help provide.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
There is a very strong tendency to persecute the masses of homeless / desperate people in our cities based upon a few (often unsubstantiated) stories of malfeasance.
That said, there is also an important principal which should not be overlooked here; there are good and bad ways to deal with institutional failures of society.
In the case of homeless persons, there are really only a few things one can do which truly help people. Here's what you can do to help:
1. Don't give anyone on the street anything directly. This is the hard one to accept, because you feel obligated to help people in need. The reasons for this are simple. Giving directly is tremendously inefficient. Would you rather pay for one person to maybe eat one meal at a restaurant they will feel uncomfortable in or potentially even contribute to a substance addiction, or would you like to feed 10 people at a soup kitchen where they will also have access to other services?
2. Do give to the soup kitchen / homeless shelters. It's simple and effective. Most shelters have structured giving plans and disclose their policies on religious indoctrination which should be kept to a minimum to encourage participation. I personally won't give to any shelter which requires any religious participation for services, but there are options in my city, so I'd probably change that policy if that was not the case.
3. Seek political changes. This is the only long term solution to the problem. Big cities need to act like small towns when helping those who fall through the cracks. Make the system diverse, distributed, and attractive to those who need help. LA is a counter example; they have spent 30 years learning that centralizing their system and ignoring people makes their city core a terrible place for everyone, not just the homeless. It costs an amazing amount to keep people in jail and fight crime caused by destitution, much more than providing transitional housing and services in the actual communities people live in to begin with.
So really all I'm saying here is we shouldn't focus on the people who somehow "work the system"; instead focus on giving people the tools they need to leave that lifestyle and either get the mental and substance abuse treatment they need or move back into the workforce and better themselves. No doubt there are people who won't / can't do this, but that's no excuse not to help those who are in desperation and willing to work for a better life.
I am managing without what might be considered "normal" housing -- living with family, friends, couch-surfing, sleeping under a porch, under a tree, ... Hey, I am at the library on the internet for free with my laptop (stored in that secret location when not in use.) I read all the "generalizations and labels" and I laugh. Addictions and so-called "mental" problems affect everyone regardless of income/amount of money in your bank. "How we react" to stuff that come up is our choice. The cel is charging in the wall plug as I type.
Congratulations on keeping/getting it together. It is indeed difficult to support yourself and got to school at the same time, and when you add in the support of another person.... The internet has indeed made it possible for people to succeed in life when, just 25 years ago, we'd all be struggling justto make ends meet. It's no wonder people used to marry so young. The two incomes were needed, and now we have more options and more control over our lives.
It's a girl!
I used to volunteer at a local homeless shelter -- nobody was contemplating getting hooked up to the internet or starting a career. Most of the people in these places are mentally unstable folks who were kicked out of institutions starting in the 80's when funding was slashed or drug/alcohol addicts who simply cannot function in society.
What if the internet *is* a drug? After all, the FDA redefined a "drug" to be any "substance advertised to cure or prevent a disease." If I don't get me Lesbian Strapon Porn once a week, mister Wanky hides up in the abdominal cavity and dies a little more. We don't want to lose mister Wanky, do we?
These folks need medical help, not email.
FIRST POST! Phew, now I feel cured after saying that.
Maybe its different in California... but I doubt it.
You know what the lost pages of Benjamin Franklin's journal were wroute? It was this:
"Damn people don' want me to hammer that 25 year-ol' pussy. I'ld rather be homeless and satiated than work all day just to own a fuckin' house I never have time to live in."
Well, with the right technologies, you could literally give blood for oil.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Yeah, I give food to homeless all the time. druggies and alchies, they eat it. There are programs in nyc to distribute food to the homeless, by going out into the streets and subways... I've never seen anyone turn down food.
You didn't give me shit when I asked. I didn't ask for an apple, I asked for an apple computer.
In India, there are people stuck in a position known as debt bondage. Basically, you provide shelter and food for someone in exchange for debt and pay them so little that they can never work it off. It's not a system any sane and humane person would wish for our culture to emulate.
We used to do so something similar in the US in company towns where everything was owned by the company you worked for and you were only paid in money good at the company store. Deductions were made from your paycheck before you received it such that you never actually saw any money. If you wanted to leave a company town, you had to do so penniless and homeles.
The Pullman strike happened over these conditions. At the time, many people pointed out that the housing Lake Calumet was nicer than average and would say that these people were helped by entering into debt bondage. However, the lack of freedom to anywhere else without becoming a vagrant was oppressive and wrong.
The argument that someone, somewhere is more desperate than your current workers is never an excuse for stringing people along for the absolute minimum that you can give them while demanding that they be grateful for it. That's called the race to the bottom, and its the sport of plutocrats everywhere. A fair minimum wage only eliminates the worst kind of menial jobs and gives people the purchasing power to buy the goods that help generate jobs elsewhere.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
maybe they were using that as an excuse to try and get cash to spend on thier drug addiction.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
I found it better to know where the nearest truck stop with a shower happened to be. Where I could get free food. Where I could find a place to sleep.
I can always get internet at a library.
But that's just me.
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
Do you know how much it helps an elderly person trying to stay independent, to have a nurse or a social worker come in once a week?! It helps a lot. I know this from personal experience.
I know what you mean. Several years ago I had a nurse working as my ILS, Independent Living Skills, aide for several months. While she helped and tried to make me more independent, I didn't realize until after the last tyme I saw her just how dependent I actually became on her. It took me a few weeks before I was able to adjust to not having her help.
FalconShould there be a Law?
We have a "fair" minimum wage that excludes the less-desirable potential workers. They are unemployed, survive on handouts and dumpster diving, and won't do the unimportant jobs that we might like to have done. This is good?????
Can you tell me where in Article 1 Section 8 of the US Constitution that the federal government is responsible for the elderly?
Libertas in infinitum
There are instances of short-term homelessness. Someone got fired, lost their house, that sort of thing. But within a matter of months they should be back in the right direction. These situations are pretty rare. Anyone in the US can find a job if they are serious and determined.
The majority of American homelessness is caused by mental illness, or drug/chemical addiction.
I volunteered in a homeless shelter for 12 years, trust me I know.
Libertas in infinitum
My dad would keep MREs in the car and would simply ask them if they wanted a MRE. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRE
Libertas in infinitum
Do you mean this:
We have the right as individuals to give away as much of our own money as we please in charity; but as members of Congress we have no right to appropriate a dollar of the public money.
-Davy Crockett
Libertas in infinitum
I live in Calgary Alberta... I carry a Toshiba portege 3440CT in my backpack and troll parking garages for wireless signals... because my battery dosnt work so the power outlets are also a necessity... I have no addictions like drinking or drugs.. but I also have no friends or family...
A bad month for `me means living on the streets. tho this is not the first time. I dont go to homeless shelters, nor do I ask people for money. People often stop and offer me money tho... and most tTimes I decline... but as for your money feeding the addictions of the homeless... well... i have to disagree... the majority of panhandlers drink not drugs... druggies have no patience to panhandle.
For myself, I collect pop/beer cans for a living... and do quite well... $50 - $100 dollars a day...
plus stuff like cell phones and stuff that people throw out that are easily resellable.
I dont think many on here know what its like to be homeless and I dont think you should be judging people until you ven been there.. people judge me and assume im homeless so i must be a thief alcoholic or crackhead... im neither.. im just a guy trying to survive... and finish developing my website.
Many of the clients (as they were referred to as) often faced addictions and/or mental issues. Often times, living on the street was a matter of their choice -- they didn't trust anyone enough to follow them into a building. Likewise, when people say "give a bit of spare change", this is often the worst advice that can be given as much of that money will go directly into feeding their addiction. It is far better to offer to buy them a coffee, or recommend them to a shelter. Of course, I live in Canada, so it may very well be different in the United States of America...
Where I used to live there were different kinds of homeless or unemployed people. Some had a bad financial streak, such as lost their employment, had hugh medical bills pillup, then were evicted or had their house foreclosed. Other's didn't trust anyone. Some worked hard at trying to improve their situation whereas others didn't want anything to change or didn't want to work. In between two jobs I had while attending college I worked three or four tymes a week through a day labor pool around classes and looking for a parttime job. Some of the people I met there were hard working themself and were trying to get permanent employment and at the same tyme others were standing street corners holding up signs asking for work and/or money. Most of them if they were offered work would turn it down, saying they weren't able to do it or something. What really got me was that some of these panhandlers were collecting more than what I made when I was working fulltime. I understand some people need some help at some point in tyme, but I hate it when those who are able bodied refuse to work and instead beg in streets. This makes it harder for those who are trying to make things better for themselves.
FalconShould there be a Law?
In England we have a magazine called The Big Issue [bigissue.com] which is sold by agents who are homeless or at risk of being. They purchase the magazine at wholesale price (60p) and sell to the public keeping the difference.
I don't recall the name so it might be the same thing but I read something last year about a local paper in London. Not only was it sold by those who needed the money but most of the articles were written by the homeless as well.
FalconShould there be a Law?
unfortunately its very hard to get section 8 and very hard to get a place with section 8. at least in nyc many landlords won't rent to section 8'ers.. neither solution works, because shelters are too expensive to run and don't really have the facilities to provide the support needed. There's a lot of bloat in the system. NYC's housing market is way inflated though, I have no idea how well section 8 works elsewhere... here not so well.
Not sure how it is now but at one tyme NYC was screwed up. I recall something I read years ago about how Mother Teresa tried to open a shelter in NYC, she had the site all setup, but the city wouldn't let her open it. There was one demand after another the city was making and finally she gave up.
FalconShould there be a Law?
certain level. If you're a multi-millionaire, how many unearned millions do your children really need to get along comfortably in life? Cap inheritances at 10 million per child, and we'd see a substantial rise in revenues as well as a substantial rise in charitable giving. This might be a way to pay for more tax cuts for the living (although we still need to pay for the current tax cuts first!). Anyway, social programs are important, but we need to be able to pay for them! If we can't afford them, we need to cut the least necessary/lower priority ones.
In a way I agree but then people can do like Warren Buffet did in his annoucement with Bill Gates. Warren Buffet To Donate $37 Billion To Gates Foundation. Children shouldn't need that much of an inheritance, especially when well raised, but I'd rather see the money go to charities or foundations than for the government to grab it. Though I don't have any stats I believe money can do more and better when in private hands than with the government.
FalconShould there be a Law?
They can find a place to access the internet and stay connected, but they can't find anywhere other than my garden to take a dump?
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Getting access to the internet is not that hard. The public library system in my home city has free internet access available to the public. Yahoo!, Google, MSN, and AOL all have free email services available that don't require having an address.
True but some block or filter out free email services. Years ago when I lived in Orlando, FL the public library there blocked these services. I had email with Hotmail but was prevented from accessing it, so I asked one of the workers and they told me the library didn't want anyone using email.
FalconShould there be a Law?
"The group we lump together as homeless are really at least 2 distinct groups."
No, the group that *YOU* lump together are really at least a huge number of distinct INDIVIDUALS. And you are a callous heartless bigoted fuck who is just looking for an excuse to write off vast numbers of them as trash so you can not have to bother caring about their wretched misfortunes and the hideous social injustices which contributed to them being where they are and still retain your sense of smug self-superiority.
Sorry to have to correct you and all, but you do suck.
We have a "fair" minimum wage that excludes the less-desirable potential workers.
Your entire argument rests on this postulate which I do not accept. Homeless people aren't excluded from work because they aren't qualified to do work worth the minimum wage but are qualified to work for a pittance. They're excluded because they're unwashed and frightening to customers and are perceived by employers as untrustworthy since they are desperate and don't have it together enough to keep a living space. Giving them less money a day than they could get from begging at a good corner isn't really benefitting them.
Exactly what type of jobs do you see people hiring homeless people for that they wouldn't prefer to hire an illegal immigrant or a kid in high school for?
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
I never said "aren't qualified". For good reason, I only said "less desirable".
It's probably true that an unwashed person is less desirable because the customers get frightened. That's less desirable, hmmm? People who are less-desirable for ANY REASON are worth less. (reasons: ugly, smelly, wears a KKK shirt, has a voice like Beaker, constantly picks his nose, talks to your feet, talks to his feet, has full-blown conversation with his feet...) Today, if the value to the business is below minimum wage, the business will do without, and the potential worker goes unemployed.
Ideally a business could hire anybody for what they are worth. (People with negative value are unlikely to pay for the privilege of working though!)
There are plenty of potential low-value jobs that could provide work. Today some of them are subsidized as part of the budgets for jails (picking trash off highways, some farm work, license place manufacture) and mental institutions (sorting recycled bottles by type). We could have more people prying nails out of old boards or chipping morter off of old bricks. We could have people catching mice.
I'd rather have somebody working than committing crimes.
Ideally a business could hire anybody for what they are worth. (People with negative value are unlikely to pay for the privilege of working though!)
That's a horrible stance. A person's "worth" by that standard is determined by how desperate they are. That's how debt bondage and sweatshops get started -- by feeding on desperation and making sure that people never get comfortable enough to ask for more. It's all about lowering the standards of living for the masses to increase the profits of the masters.
That's how the race for the bottom happens. That's why we have laws to protect people against it because it leaves us with a populace that can't afford safe housing, can't afford education, can't afford healthcare, and who are thus trapped in poverty from generation to generation. That's what we had in the 19th century, and it led to very miserable lives for many. We put a stop to that so that America could have a middle-class centric society instead of a pyramid shaped society. You would have us return to neo-feudalism with your ideas.
I'd rather have somebody working than committing crimes.
Now there's a false dichotomy if I ever heard one. Personally, I'd rather have people earn enough of a living to avoid needing crime and to avoid being so poorly educated that crime looks attractive. Violent crime is highest in the poorest because of desperation. We don't need to encourage more desperation by eliminating the minimum wage at a time when it's already insufficient to let people work just one job and provide for their family.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Oh no. Basic economics: a person's worth is determined by supply (similarly desirable people) and demand (employers with similar needs). The law does not determine this, today or otherwise.
Note that many people, probably even most people, are not getting just minimum wage. I may be willing to work for $3/hour, but I might get 10x that if people like myself are in demand.
Unemployed people can't afford safe housing, can't afford education, can't afford healthcare, and are thus trapped in poverty from generation to generation. This is what we have now because it is illegal to provide jobs for people who are worth less than some arbitrary minimum wage that was determined by elitists such as yourself. I know, you can't bear to see people living in squalar, but the "cure" only increases the disease.
How are people to earn enough of a living to avoid needing crime if they are unemployable at the minimum wage?
Avoiding a return to feudal-style inequality would better involve dealing with golden-parachute deals for executives that screw up, monopolies and near-monopolies, intellectual property problems, and the short-sighted nature of the typical publicly traded corporation.
BTW, bondage and company towns are evil (and illegal most places), but sweat shops are good. When the do-gooders get third-world sweat shops shut down, the girls turn to prostitution to support their families. See the wikipedia article for "sweat shop" if you want proof of this actually happening.
Oh no. Basic economics: a person's worth is determined by supply (similarly desirable people) and demand (employers with similar needs). The law does not determine this, today or otherwise.
Have you ever heard of the concept of price supports? They exist when markets become unsustainable when prices are driven too low. For example, minimum wage is already too little to live off of unless you pull serious overtime (or more likely work multiple jobs since companies are adverse to overtime pay).
A large part of the cause of the widespread misery of the Great Depression was the collapse in the value of farm goods. Because of this, farming was no longer viable to support families. Farmland went unused and banks were emptied as people started taking out savings that had been loaned out to farmers that couldn't repay. At the Depression's height, one in four Americans was out of a job, and many were homeless. This is because farming had become too expensive for the wages paid until such time as the federal government stepped in and started price support.
Similarly, labor is a good that had costs -- housing, food, education, etc. These costs are poorly met by our existing minimum wage. Eliminating it entirely would make having a job insufficient to cover for basic needs. As such, you could expect higher unemployment.
In addition, the lack of buying power of workers would have an effect similar to what happened in the Great Depression -- people couldn't afford goods like new houses, so construction stopped and several industries went out of business. If people are having to spend all their money on food and shelter, then they can't buy any of the luxuries and services that drive our economy. Eliminating the minimum wage would close a lot of American companies due to lack of customers.
Focus on supply and demand only minimizes local costs. It does not provide a livable society.
Note that many people, probably even most people, are not getting just minimum wage. I may be willing to work for $3/hour, but I might get 10x that if people like myself are in demand.
No minimum wage job is for people in demand. Minimum wage jobs are generally menial labor with no real skills needed to apply. Food service, maid services, janitorial services, etc. The vast number of people desperate enough for a job to take a job like these does not however justify paying sub-poverty level wages to people who are actually working.
Unemployed people can't afford safe housing, can't afford education, can't afford healthcare, and are thus trapped in poverty from generation to generation. This is what we have now because it is illegal to provide jobs for people who are worth less than some arbitrary minimum wage that was determined by elitists such as yourself. I know, you can't bear to see people living in squalar, but the "cure" only increases the disease.
Most homeless people are "unemployable" at any wage greater than zero. That's my point, and I'm not the elitist who's proposing that some jobs should pay less than the cost of two meals for a day (with none left over for a roof over your head) and that the rabble should be happy for it. Anyone who thinks that the "cure only increases the disease" hasn't actually ever had to live at minimum wage nor known someone who has. I unfortunately have 2-3 friends who work jobs just slightly better than minimum wage and none have healthcare, none can live on their own in safe neighborhoods, and none can afford any savings after paying utilities, rent, and food except for the one that still lives with his mother in his 30s.
How are people to earn enough of a living to avoid needing crime if they are unemployable at the minimum wage?
These people you refer to aren't employable even at $1/hour. People don't want to be near them. It's part of the stigma. Putting everyone who does currently live on minimum wage out on the streets because they can no longer afford housing at even more pathetic
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Oh yes, price supports: an obstacle to be worked around if business is to continue.
It did real well in Cambridge, MA. Rent was cheap... but you were forced to buy junky furnature for sky-high prices.
This turns people into "independant contractors" to avoid the minimum wage.
The collapse in the value of farm goods was only painful because it happened so fast. People were forced to adjust, rather than living out the rest of their lives with the same old career. Sometimes progress sucks. Such is life.
No minimum wage job is for people in HIGH demand. There is indeed demand. Pay would not drop to zero or negative. It's better to have two people getting $3/hour than to have one person unemployed while the other person gets $5/hour.
healthcare: we allowed liability and mandatory high standards to make care expensive
safe neighborhood: if your neighbors have no jobs (because of minimum wage), it will be unsafe
utilities: blame OSHA and the EPA, both luxuries for the well-to-do
rent: blame zoning laws and building codes, as well as OSHA and the EPA
food: same deal, plus the damn price supports you so love
It sounds like you want to force a company to pay UNfair wages instead of running or stopping a sweatshop-like factory. Wow. We call this communism. It works very well on paper, ignoring certain awkward truths about human nature.
No minimum wage job is for people in HIGH demand. There is indeed demand. Pay would not drop to zero or negative. It's better to have two people getting $3/hour than to have one person unemployed while the other person gets $5/hour.
Let me break some numbers down for you. The nation has about 8 million people working for less than $7.25/hour. The nation also has about 5 million people who are unemployed and listed as "wanting to work" by the U.S. Labor department. Assuming that we hired all 13 million to work at $3/hour, it would not be a net benefit to the economy.
If everyone's working only 60 hours per week, we have 13 million people earning roughly $9,000 per year. Do the math. Assuming that they're all married (which is grossly undeserved given that people earning less than $25,000 have half the chances of getting married of people earning more than $25,000), you have a household income of $18,000. If you have the statistical average 2 children, you're well under the poverty line.
Housing costs should not account for more than 30% of your income to be affordable (and allow you to cover food, utilities, clothing, transportation, etc.). I live in Georgia. Median rent here is about $600 state wide. Assume that a poor person finds housing for $400/month. This is $4,800 for a year or 40% of income at this level. That leaves only $36/day (before taxes) to cover a full family of 4 -- $9 per day per person for 2-3 meals, transportation (including to work), etc.
A phone bill means nothing for 1-2 days of the month. (No frills, no internet.) Gas and electric bills mean nothing for 3-4 more days in peak months (for my nicely weather-proofed, non-slum apartment). The water bill is another day. If you rent appliances (and who at this income level owns appliances?), that can be another 1-3 days depending on who and where you rent from and given your utterly attrocious credit rating at this level of income.
So, now you're down to about $6/day for each person. I hope you live close to where you work, because I fill up at $30 every week for my one car. Most of the fast food workers where I live and work can't afford to live anywhere near there, and my car gets much better mileage than most of the clunkers the poor have to drive. (Maybe in the spirit of Marie Antoinette, we should simply say, "Let them drive Priuses!") If they're lucky they can take public transit for $52/month in Atlanta -- another day and a half of income used up.
So now, we've got families formerly earning twice as much as they used to living in slums with only about $5 spending money per day per person for the entire household -- We're not even considering single mothers! -- and this is somehow better for everybody concerned? Well, it's definitely would be better for the homeless, if anyone would just hire them at any price.
Oh, and don't get sick. Not only can't you afford to visit the doctor or even buy most OTC medicines, but you're likely to get fired and replaced with another cog that's only valued at $3/hour if you're out for more than a couple of days. This has nothing to do with "liability costs" or "best available care." This has to do with a freaking bottle of Robitussin costing half of the family's money for the day it was purchased. Brush those teeth kids, because you don't want to even think about going to the dentist.
Have I painted a deep enough picture of the misery of the life you propose? Do we really need an entire segment of our population dependent on welfare for survival while working their butts off like a good number of Wal-mart workers already are under much higher wages?
Can you even imagine how much more miserable this would be for a single mother who much raise kids on even half that budget? Do you understand the human cost of not having either parent at home to raise their kids? Do you not see how this leads to crime when the only role models that kids see that are getting ahead are thugs and drug dealers or when some child
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
The point is that $0/hour is even worse.
And yes, when you need a roof over your head and food in your stomach, you'll gladly put up with danger. The uncertainty of a possible industrial accident or home collapse sure beats the certainty of starvation and exposure. It's too bad that it is illegal to offer this choice. The only thing legal is to let the people starve.
If you can afford to put a roof over your head and get some food, then of course your next concerns will be about the roof being solid and the food being uncontaminated. First things first though.
BTW, one would obviously do without appliances. My grandfather had none when he was a kid, and he turned out all right. He didn't even have running water or electricity.
I apologize for getting personal, but it is a story like this that really gets me to say... you are amazing, and an example for everyone. I work as an admissions counselor at a very small private university and we come across high school students on a case-by-case basis all the time whose responsibilities outweigh their age in our society. My distinct kudos to you and the example you set for anyone else who thinks that s/he is trapped in a position of immobility because of the fact s/he has to provide for someone and go to high school. It is not a desirable position, and you provide hope to a lot of people because of your effort and motivation.
Slashdot is my boyfriend's mistress.