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School Admins Demand Access to Students' Cellphones

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the why-was-i-calling-paraguay dept.

Reverberant writes "School administrators in Framingham MA have implemented a policy allowing them to not only confiscate cell phones, but also to search through students' cell phone data as part of their anti drug/violence efforts. Students claim that the policy is an invasion of their privacy."

69 of 836 comments (clear)

  1. Kids these days... by NexFlamma · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What these kids don't understand is that simply by attending the school they lose the majority of their rights. Since they are minors, the school becomes their de facto guardian while they are there, and thusly, it has power that supercedes their rights.

    1. Re:Kids these days... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Then (big leap, I do realise), what's to stop the schools from manditory cavity searches? I mean, after all, they are de facto guardian... And what about the students that are 18 and in school, is the school STILL the de facto guardian? If not, then what right (legally, besides anything their handbook says) would the school have to take the phone?

    2. Re:Kids these days... by jcr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Guess again, counselor. You don't "lose" your rights because they're violated.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    3. Re:Kids these days... by Umbral+Blot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That might be legal, but is it right?

      --

      Philosophy.
    4. Re:Kids these days... by Bogtha · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What these kids don't understand is that simply by attending the school they lose the majority of their rights.

      What better way to indoctrinate the adults of tomorrow? They won't miss what they never had.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    5. Re:Kids these days... by Sigma+7 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      What these kids don't understand is that simply by attending the school they lose the majority of their rights. Since they are minors, the school becomes their de facto guardian while they are there, and thusly, it has power that supercedes their rights.


      FYI, some of those kids in high-school are at or above the age of 18. Adults of sound mind do not have a legal guardian.

      Also, some cell phones are in the name of the student's parents. In this case, the student just has to keep it in "locked" mode, and tell the school to obtain the unlock code from the owner of the cell phone.

      The school claims it "is to improve security and stop the sale of drugs and stolen goods." The cell phone checking does absolutly nothing to prevent (or handle) these incidents since there is no record of numbers that are about to be called. In addition, the school does not have the investigative power to identify these items in question - this is handled by the police and they require a search warrent.

    6. Re:Kids these days... by chrisxkelley · · Score: 3, Informative

      The cell phone checking does absolutly nothing to prevent (or handle) these incidents since there is no record of numbers that are about to be called.

      I'm in high school and in march last year we had a huge drug bust. How? Searching through text messages on a students phone, leading to others phones and looking through call lists, etc. There isn't much you can do when a few cops come into the classroom and tell everyone to put their phones on the desk and get out.

    7. Re:Kids these days... by TubeSteak · · Score: 5, Interesting
      In addition, the school does not have the investigative power to identify these items in question - this is handled by the police and they require a search warrent.
      If a teacher or school official has "reasonable suspicion", they can search you.

      You = Your person, your bag and your effects
      (No they can't strip search you)

      'Your' locker is usually not yours.
      Usually, school policy states it is the school's.
      This means it is always fair game to be searched.

      Your statement that teachers do "not have the investigative power to identify" is meaningless. They do have the power to investigate & they aren't making a legal finding of fact. If it involves suspected drugs or suspected stolen property, they're going to call the police, who will not require a warrant to do anything, since the teacher has already done the search.

      My guess is they want to poke through student's cell phones to dig up recent txt messages (I wnt 2 by drgs) and phone numbers. Now they have reasonable suspicion to extend their search(es). Evidence of any other crimes/violations of school policy are probably going to be fair game too.

      Moral of the story: If the school can, it will. Don't keep/take evidence of crimes at/to school.
      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    8. Re:Kids these days... by TubeSteak · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Your statement is factually correct, but in the context of the discussion, it is neither here nor there.

      In order to attend school, the student agrees to hold the school & its officials to certain standards of conduct. These standards are different (lower and generally more arbitrary) than you would expect of the Police or a Judge.

      The student and their parent agreed to this.
      This includes students over the age of 18.

      The alternative is homeschooling.

      If a teacher or school official violates your rights, it will get resolved within the school system or the court system. Other than that, the most any student can do is say "no, I do not consent to be searched".

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    9. Re:Kids these days... by ZeroExistenZ · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I'm starting to feel old...

      When I was a kid, we didn't have cellphones and certainly not in the classroom. If we wanted to "secretly communicate", we wrote little notes, and passed them on. If the teacher intercepted one, well.. I couldn't claim my privacy was being violated. You just could get "negative credits". (a system where teachers could give you these "credits", 10 of these credits ment wednessdayafternoon obligated study.) for distrupting the class. Ha, even carrying cigarettes would be reason to be expelled for 3 days... If they had a suspicion, they would have reason to search your jacket.

      Many people send their kids to school, trusting that school to take care of the wellbeing of these kids. And more and more as a pseudo-parent. If the school doesn't get the rights to somehow have an influence on (to not allow them to do just whatever they feel like doing) them. I believe that's a requirement for the all the other students and the student itself. In the case of the cigarettes; if your -caring- parents suspect you have been smoking, they'll search your stuff. Kids would love it if their parents only could search their stuff with a warrant, but things shouldn't work that way. In the time you're at school, they are expected to take over that function in a limited amount. If they screw up in the -caring- parents eye's they will have to argumentate why they just "didn't care about it" towards these parents. The oppinion of the child should matter not, as it's an individual but it's not yet an adult.

      Well I sortof agree you shouldn't do the drugsearches by the school by installing a "big brother" system. But on the other hand, these kids can stop using their phones during class or turn them off and that might be the conclusion if that school doesn't get a way to monitor the traffic, because most likely they feel out of control of the things going on in that school and want to get back a hold on the problem. When I went to public school, drugs were found by running drugsdogs through some classes occasionally, I believe that's a bit more effective then snooping your 1000+ students but it doesn't leave much of a good impression.

      --
      I think we can keep recursing like this until someone returns 1
    10. Re:Kids these days... by pikine · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I worry that kids who grow up without knowing their constitutional rights will not ever learn to exercise them later in their lives. Unfortunately, taking a civil studies class doesn't help because the rights being taught in class hardly relates to the student's real-life experience.

      If you have been habitually giving up your rights since childhood, you will not hesitate to do so again when you're an adult.

      That is how I grew up. I can tell you, if I were stopped and interrogated by a police officer, I would let him search all over me, inspect my identification, all without a second thought. If the police showed up at my door, I would invite them in and let them look at all my personal belongings. That is because I was taught that if you didn't do anything wrong, then you should not be afraid to be searched. But searching without evidence of a crime is wrong.

      I never learned about any of these until I saw this video: How to avoid being arrested by cops. Anyone should watch this.

      --
      I once had a signature.
    11. Re:Kids these days... by mariox19 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You beat me to it, because I think this is the most important point of the whole issue.

      Part of the purpose of school, and in raising kids in general, is to socialize them: meaning, to raise them so that they will be able to live in society. I am not for minors having the full-fledged rights of adults; but, we have to remember that how we raise them will affect what kind of adults they turn out to be. For kids, school is, to a great degree, society. The society we create for them in school is the society they will learn to live with.

      When kids have to show ID at every turn, live out their day under the surveillance of security cameras, surrender their personal belongings on the whim of any authority figure, so on and so forth, it is far more likely that the great mass of them will grow up to be the kind of adults that will submit to an overbearing authority that allows them few rights.

      It's one thing when this kind of policy is instituted in a private school. I still think it's a bad idea; but, the parents sent the kid there and had a choice as to where to send him. But, if we are talking about a government school (though, the euphamism in the US is "public" school), this presents, in my opinion, a serious threat to our future. Public schools in the US hold a near monopoly in education; and though I am not going to accuse the government of a concious conspiracy to indoctrinate the youth of america with anti-liberal ideas, the results, if such policies become widespread, will be no different.

      To my mind, adults act as the custodians for the rights of kids: releasing various rights to kids as they become able to handle them responsibly. I'm all for adults being in charge; but any responsible adult realizes the grave responsibility he has towards the kids with which he has been given charge, and weilds that power in the service of raising kids to be responsible adults jealous of their liberty, rather than cowed wretches with no backbone in the face of authority.

      Kids deserve respect above all; and this needs to trump the illiberal policies instituted under the cover of promoting "safe schools."

      --

      quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.

    12. Re:Kids these days... by icebrk · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not much to do?
      Like say, NOT putting your cell phone on the desk?
      Saying NO, I don't consent to ANY searches?
      Turning OFF the phone (and being smart enough to have a security/SIM PIN Active)

      There are plenty of things to do, and although I'm not stupid enough to keep incriminating text messages (or send them) I have a good deal of private stuff on it (SMS and Photo) and there's no way I'd voluntarily let some pig look through that without a search warrant. It's thankfully been 5 years since High School I can't see myself consenting to ANYONE looking through my phone, much less someone I can't trust like the cops.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound, this is why many people appear bright until they open their mouth.
    13. Re:Kids these days... by PunkOfLinux · · Score: 4, Insightful

      er... the STUDENTS agree to go to school? Ever hear of a little thing called compulsory attendance? It's more like the law agrees FOR them

      --
      Show this to your friends and family that don't know what a real hacker is
    14. Re:Kids these days... by mysidia · · Score: 5, Interesting

      IANAL either, however, I believe the custodial position must be used in the kid's interests. Analyzing the kid's cell phone data for some vague reason is not in the kid's direct interests, even if it's supposed to help "anti drug/violence efforts," whatever that means -- the only possible use for the information is in effect to harm the kid, so the school has no right to forcefully operate the kid's private property so to access private information that is contained.

      The school would have no more right to do this then they would have to put a keylogger on their lab computers, gather students usernames&passwords, and peruse the contents of students' e-mail boxes for their "anti swear-word/hacking" campaign.

      Custodianship is not a blank check, and there are rights that custodians do not have -- even the parent would have no right to analyze the data, except for the fact, that the parent probably has legal ownership of the cellphone, and can therefore use the phone as they like and freely examine the data stored on that basis, because they OWN the device; if the kid paid for the phone and the phone service, then not even the parent has a right to operate the phone.

      Analyzing the phone requires operating it in a way.

      One issue however: if a password isn't required to access the information, then it may not be that private anyway -- a stranger could just as easily access the information, if the owner lost the phone, and this might be part of an effort to return the phone to its rightful owner. Rather than rely on some vague privacy rights to protect them: cell phone owners should erase sensitive data from their phones, or at least password the devices, and keep them locked when not in use.

    15. Re:Kids these days... by KarmaMB84 · · Score: 4, Informative

      They have every protection under the US Constitution and US Federal law. Students only have SOME of their rights slightly restricted. This is typically while at school or during the time they are supposed to be going/coming to/from school or when they are supposed to be there. The US Constitution makes no claims as to the age when you receive any rights. All citizens born in the US received are protected by the Constitution from birth.

      Why else would any lawyers argue over a minors' Constitutional rights in court all the time?

    16. Re:Kids these days... by jdbartlett · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Frankly, an unwarranted cavity search performed on a minor without the express permission of a legal de jure guardian is tantamount to child molestation.

      Schools have few more "rights" than babysitters.

    17. Re:Kids these days... by the_humeister · · Score: 3, Funny

      In these trying times, I must ask you: why do you hate America? Don't you see? Attitudes like that mean that the terrorists have already won! Why won't you think of the children?!?

    18. Re:Kids these days... by DavidTC · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But on the other hand, these kids can stop using their phones during class or turn them off and that might be the conclusion if that school doesn't get a way to monitor the traffic, because most likely they feel out of control of the things going on in that school and want to get back a hold on the problem.

      Erm, you didn't actually read the article. No one said anything about 'monitoring' cell phones, which, incidentally, would be illegal for anyone to do without a warrant. We're talking about searching cell phones.

      And no school or even college allows the operatation of cell phones during class. Not even, in theory, to send text messages. No one has a problem with that. Cell phone use should be restricted to out of class times, and it would be fine to restrict it to breaks only or even before/after school. No one has any constitutional problem with restrictions on cell phones, although for safety reasons students should be allowed to have them outside of the school day, at the very least.

      The problem is that this school feels they can search cell phones that happen to be on campus. Not 'used during class', not even 'in use', merely located on campus. And by 'search', we mean 'Go through the memory of', not 'flip open to see if something is sitting inside it', FYI.

      The previous excuses for searching lockers and bookbags were 'weapons and drugs'. You rather obviously can't have a weapon or drugs stored inside your cell phone. Even if they are searching for evidence of drugs, the original searches were allowed, with a warrant, under 'safety'...it's the same reason a cop can search you when you're arrested...drugs physically located at schools are dangerous, in theory, so they claimed, so they can search for them.

      Well, this really shows what the whole motivation for that thing was about.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    19. Re:Kids these days... by gilroy · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Blockquoth the poster:

      Guess again, counselor. You don't "lose" your rights because they're violated.

      True but irrelevant. These students aren't "losing" rights by going to school. They don't have those rights to begin with. At least, that is the interpretation the school will take, and it's backed up by both laws and court decisions.

      A thing a lot of students don't like to hear is, they simply are not accorded the same status and rights as a majority-age citizen. I know a lot who find that autocratic and unfair, which is (ironically) their right.

      On the other hand, it's clear that a child at birth is not actualized enough to make informed and healthy choices. So no matter how much we "liberate" children, there will be a lower end to it. Is 18 the right bound? I don't know. It seems to work more or less for most kids.

      Disclaimer: I am a high school teacher so of course I can be expected to side with The Man on this.
      --
      The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
    20. Re:Kids these days... by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Every single person on this planet has the same rights. It's just that their local government may not recognize them.

      I'm amazed that you can speak with such certainty over an arbitrary human construct.

      --
      Last post!
    21. Re:Kids these days... by SMS_Design · · Score: 3, Informative

      I find it disturbing that people are willing to negate the rights of others so flippantly. "Oh hey, they're not really people. They don't need rights." The only reason why many people will do this is because they will never have to deal with the results.

      When I was in HS, I was very well capable of making my own decisions. I was a mature, intelligent, and informed individual. I did not like that my school to treated me like a sub-human creature, and would resist any time I was able. The result? Well, the school's administration made me "disappear" with some creative lies to local law enforcement. It is a really long story.

      Our schools are run by old men who revel in the power that is afforded to them by a government that no longer cares about citizens. I advise every high school student who might be reading this to rebel. Rebel hard, and don't let your spirit be extinguished by the old perverts who try to control your life.

    22. Re:Kids these days... by JW.Axelsen.Sr. · · Score: 5, Funny
      what's to stop the schools from manditory cavity searches?
      fathers with handguns
    23. Re:Kids these days... by Aaron+England · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Student's "don't shed their constituiotnal rights... at the schoolhouse gate."
      - Tinker v. Des Moines

    24. Re:Kids these days... by Miamicanes · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I turned 18 in October of my Senior year in high school. I tried to sign my own permission form for a field trip (crossing out "son/daughter/ward" and writing "SELF" above) and hand it in, but was told I couldn't. Over the next few weeks, I pursued the matter up the bureaucracy chain until I finally got an appointment with the principal himself, trying to get someone to quote the exact written rule that actually prohibited legally-adult students from signing their own permission slips. The best I got was, "Look, that's just the way it is. If you don't like it, get a lawyer and take it up with the school board."

      My mom thought I was being silly... my dad was semi-amused... but neither would finance the lawyer, which unfortunately ended the matter there since I didn't personally have the cash to pursue the matter further.

      Looking back, I'm convinced that if hell exists, people die, then are forced to relive high school over and over for all eternity. I feel sorry for today's high school students. Things were bad in the late 80s, but dear god... the crap kids have to endure NOW from AuthoriNazi administrators is just over the top.

    25. Re:Kids these days... by mariox19 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm a New York State certified teacher of social studies. Currently, I work as a per-diem substitute. I'm in high schools and middle schools almost every day.

      I do know what teachers put up with from students, parents, and government. All three groups can be real bastards. That doesn't change anything I've said. I think my posting was quite reasonable: I said that adults should be the ones in charge, but noted that in the hands of some adults, this authority could be abused, and that the results are hurtful to kids and detrimental to a free society.

      Give me a break.

      --

      quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.

    26. Re:Kids these days... by Tweekster · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Interesting point, the parent owns the cellphone, the child cannot therefore give consent to have the phone searched by school officials. The parent just needs to claim THEIR privacy was invaded and the school has a new problem.

      --
      The phrase "more better" is acceptable English. suck it grammar Nazis
    27. Re:Kids these days... by Mooga · · Score: 3, Informative
      Schools have few more "rights" than babysitters.

      That only technically. Schools shouldn't truly have the right to re-write the laws to their liking, but nothing is stopping them. The local high school here has searched students' cars and persons without warrants or permission. If a student tries to stop the school they pull their favorite rule "disobedience". The school made it so that if a student questions a teacher (ex: "Why am I being taken to the office?") or doesn't obey an order (ex: "No I will no remove my pants for you to inspect") they can get in even more trouble. And the cops are the ones searching the cars. And if a student tries to say that a warrant is needed the cops say that they don't because they can easily have one written.

      Now I don't live in a tough area. This isn't a "poor gang area", this is a rich suburb. (This actually makes it worse because student can get off anything by hiring big money layers.)

      This sounds crazy. This sounds like lies. But they aren't.

      --
      ~ Mooga
    28. Re:Kids these days... by Spock+the+Baptist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Beyond the rights of the student...

      I gave my cell phone to my teen so that I could contact them when I need to.

      It's my rights that I'm concerned with here.

      While it is true that schools have in loco parentis powers those powers do NOT supersede my rights, authority, and responsibility as a parent.

      --
      "Oh drat these computers, they're so naughty and so complex, I could pinch them." --Marvin the Martian
    29. Re:Kids these days... by Spock+the+Baptist · · Score: 3, Informative

      Sounds like a situation that I ran across back in the 70s. A local 18 year old wrote a letter to the local school board, superintendent, and principal permitting him to grow his hair long. He argued that being 18 years old he was his own guardian, and therefore his guardian was always with him, thus the schools in loco parentis power was rendered moot with respect to him.

      At this point I along with several former students of the this ISD had been working to get the dress code dropped for three years. Several school board members, along with the principal, and superintendent had made public statements, both verbal, and in print, as to the reasoning behind in loco parentis. The afore mentioned 18 year old was at this point able to hoist them on their own collective petard.

      In the end he, the 18 year old, ran for the school board and won, and much merriment ensued over the next two years.

      STB

      --
      "Oh drat these computers, they're so naughty and so complex, I could pinch them." --Marvin the Martian
    30. Re:Kids these days... by Frobnicator · · Score: 5, Insightful
      From TFA:
      School officials reserve the right to look through the cell phone when they suspect a student has drugs or stolen goods, according to Principal Michael Welch. ... The rule complies with federal law, which says a school can conduct searches when there is "reasonable suspicion" that a student has contraband.
      As for your other statement...

      If you need to get in touch with your kid, there is an established procedure for that: Contact the office. It may take a few minutes longer, but it won't end up disturbing the entire class while your kid figures out that it is his phone, digs it out of the bag, and starts chatting in the middle of a test or lecture.

      --
      //TODO: Think of witty sig statement
    31. Re:Kids these days... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      The school's need to legally "cover their butts" does not trump an adult's constitutional rights.

      Written permission slips/releases/et cetera do not now, nor have they ever stopped someone from being sued. They stop someone from prevailing in a lawsuit, but they never stop anyone from suing in the first place. Permission slips authorize the school to remove the child from the school grounds with the parent's permission. Most of these forms do not use the term "parent" by itself. Due to the ever changing forms of families, most include references to "parent, legal guardian," et cetera. Since we define adulthood as starting at 18, a parent or legal guardian has no standing over someone who is 18 and, therefore, no "permission slip" is necessary for that person to leave the school premises.

      I am forty-nine years old and both my parents are dead. However, if they weren't and I were hurt/killed by someone else's negligence they would have the right to sue for various causes of action, such as wrongful death. This will never change. A permission slip signed by a parent is not a "get out of jail free card" for a school district, or anyone else, who acts with negligence and injures another person - no matter their age.

      Claiming someone as a dependent on your tax return has no effect on their standing as an adult. Nor does living under someone else's roof. Fortunately, the law is clear on this subject in most jurisdictions, it requires students to legally attend high school until they graduate or turn 18. This has nothing to do with the majority status of a student.

      If a person under the age of 18 wants to be "emancipated" in most jurisdictions there are procedures to have the court declare them an emancipated minor, thereby making them responsible for themselves in all matters. In some states, emancipation is assumed when a minor becomes pregnant. In this case, if an emancipated minor was attending school, they would be able to sign their own permission slips, because they are their own "guardian" so to speak. So, the school would have to deal with it.

      In most instances it is fairly clear that the schools have rigid, entrenched bureaucracies manned by dogmatic and recalcitrant staff that are used to being able to get their own way. When they don't, it appears they have little understanding of the real world beyond the schoolhouse door and will do anything to get others to confirm to their vision of the world. Clearly, this is also the case in wanting to be able to search cell phones without probable cause.

    32. Re:Kids these days... by eosp · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Mods, it's insightful, not funny.

    33. Re:Kids these days... by ultranova · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Student's "don't shed their constituiotnal rights... at the schoolhouse gate."

      Kids don't have any rights in the first place, constitutional or otherwise. How could they, when they have neither representatives nor guns nor any other way to defend them ?

      Generally speaking, you have rights either because you can take them through force or through goodwill of others. Since kids have no ability to use significant force, they only have the rights that the rest of us graciously give them out of the goodness of our hearts - not bloody much, in other words.

      It is horrible to be small and weak in a human society; this is simply another proof of that.

      Oh, and I'm sure that everyone who posts about school being within their rights to do this is going to complain, in ten or fifteen years, how these very same kids, now grown up, won't resist the government trampling their rights but simply bend over and take it since resisting will only make it worse.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  2. Ringtones by MarkByers · · Score: 3, Funny

    It's just a cunning plan to get lots of free ringtones.

    --
    I'll probably be modded down for this...
  3. Invasion of privacy? by jcr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes, it certainly is. Kids, if any person demands to examine the contents of your cell phone, tell him to get a warrant. Call your parents, call the local press, and call a lawyer.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    1. Re:Invasion of privacy? by Wiseleo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A public school is a government institution.

      You do not give up that right. My opinion is that your rights are protected stronger precisely because it's a government institution, which is squarely under the jurisdiction of the Constitution.

      The Constitution does not contain age limits on the Bill of Rights, if I recall. I'd demand that the school call the police and obtain a search warrant. "So you want to look through my phone, and probably also my e-mail on this computer? Please, call the police and have them get a warrant. And that warrant must have my name on it. If you choose to ignore this request and access my data without a warrant, I'll consider your actions as unauthorized access of my computer systems, which is a federal felony and call the police immediately myself. This device is a Windows Mobile 5.0 computer system where my data is stored on an encrypted volume so that law will apply. Additionally, the school district will be sued by my family's attorney. Do you wish to continue with your line of inquiry now?"

      --
      Leonid S. Knyshov
      Find me on Quora :)
    2. Re:Invasion of privacy? by DavidTC · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That, really, is the whole thing.

      See, schools don't have due process. So if you refuse to do something the school doesn't have legal authority to do, they will let you get away with it. And label you a 'bad kid'.

      And from then on, you're screwed. A legal locker check every day? Yup. Parents getting called in for some pretend reason? Check. Getting hauled in because your Marilyn Manson t-shirt has a skull on it, and 'images of death' are against the dress code? Check. Getting in trouble because you said 'crap' when other people around you seem to get away with saying 'fuck'? Check.

      I have called for 'due process' for some time in schools, and not because I think kids deserve a lot more rights than they have (Although searching cell phone memory is outrageous.), but because justice is enforced solely against 'bad kids', and they are often 'bad kids' solely because they don't do whatever authority says. I ended up a 'bad kid' a few times, which would be hilarious if you knew me, but managed to avoid the fate because my mother was a teacher in the same school system and I managed to avoid any rulebreaking, even the rules everyone ignored.

      So I say, let's make the justice system in school official. Whatever they're got, right now, let's make it official, with appeals and whatever standards of evidences currently exist. And, most importantly, a trial for disputed charges.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  4. There's always something you can do. by Mikachu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I don't agree with the principle, I mean I certainly believe it's an invasion of privacy. But there's still always a way around it. It's pretty simple: password protect your phone. I think all cell phones have it nowadays.

    1. Re:There's always something you can do. by davidsyes · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're missing the point. Suppose that the State (state AND federal) government/s decide they are in league with MA. Now, suppose the act of locking the phone is "impeding with Justice/execution of state security laws". Now, the student can be suspended, or worse.

      Now, when will this happen to police officers, paramedics, state and federal contractors?

      Were I a parent or guardian, not only would my charge/ward/child keep their phone locked, they'd have it holstered in a combination-access belt that would be so difficult to remove that the school would give up or be charged with assault. Or, the clothing would be the phone- in which case removing it or attempting to access a data port would lead to nearly disrobing or excessively touching the kid. And, no, I'd NOT allow the school to order my kid to swap garments.

      Even worse of an implication is that if schools can rifle through student's phones and they DO find something interesting, what next? Do they have the right to archive that information? Call contacts in the lists? Turn it over to the police? Then what? Do the police have powers to start their own virtual "Friendster/Copster" of students? If Blast-a-chussets starts this slippery slope, then every state could do it or be ordered to. This could be a backdoor attempt by this wicked administration to angle in on youth and catalog them from cradle to grave.

      --
      Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
  5. Children forced to use encryption? by MarkByers · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Who exactly needs a cellphone at school?

    Noone needs a cellphone. Humanity survived before we even invented them. We don't need cars either. We survived without cars. You're missing the point though.

    Creating technology is a good thing and why we shouldn't we take advantage of it? It can be useful, fun or just interesting. If people want cellphones for whatever reason, why not? I can think of many reasons why having a cellphone is better than not having one. I don't see why people should have to justify it though. If someone else wants a cellphone they should be allowed to ahve one as long as they aren't breaking any laws, or in this case, school rules (such as turning them off during the classes).

    The real question is are school administrators allowed to reading their pupils diaries? What if their diary is stored on their cellphone? Should we give up all our privacy for the 'thinkofthechildren' and 'terrorism' projects?

    I say no. It's annoying that we are forced to use encryption to protect ourselves from our own authorities, but if that is what is required, so be it.

    --
    I'll probably be modded down for this...
  6. Re:Bad Laws? by bhima · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I am nearly 48 years old and I don't give a rat's ass about what some kid can or can not carry inside school grounds.

    But I *do* think that current privacy laws were enacted in bad faith and they are used in bad faith.
    And it is that very vagueness that allows their manipulation.

    As fars as children, cell phones, and privacy... If the school permits someone to carry a device within school grounds and they want to look at the contents of that device, they can go get a warrant... or they can go fuck themselves.

    --
    Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
  7. Re:Quick question. by jcr · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I meant if I had it tucked into my belt (yes stupid way to carry a gun), or in a holster, you know I'd get the 3rd degree.

    It's sad for you that you live in a country which has stupidly decided to endanger its citizens by denying your right to self-defense, but your attempt to rationalize one violation of rights with an example of another violation of rights (that you seem to think is just fine and dandy) doesn't support your position.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  8. What a shocker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm not suprised at all by this.

    At my public high school in Texas, they do the exact same thing, in addition to a few other things...

    You're not allowed to leave campus for lunch, but students do anyway. However, if you get caught by security guards driving on their golf carts patrolling the student parking lot, they will search your car. If they find any "contraband" (pocketknife, lighter, drugs, OTC medicine including cough drops) you get an instant suspension. Here in Texas they love their Zero Tolerance laws.

    There is also another degredation of rights where I go to, pertaining to violence. If someone walks up to you and flat out punches you for no reason, you cannot do anything. If you fight back to defend yourself, you will be instantly suspended as well as the perpetrator. A kid last year was jumped by another student who stabbed him with a sharpened lead pencil, and when he fought back, eventually knocking the attacker to the ground and kicking him, he got suspended. He didn't even know his attacker.

    So, if you are suprised by this, don't be. It's sadly nothing new.

    1. Re:What a shocker by ScrewMaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Are there any lawyers in the audience that can comment on whether a school can legally strip a student of the right to defend him or herself from physical violence? So far as I'm concerned, if I'm attacked I will use whatever means at my disposal to remove the threat. Period. I think any other creature on this planet would do the same. Even an amoeba will fight back.

      Personally, I'd rather be suspended (or expelled) than suffer serious injury: some bullies don't know when to quit. Matter of fact, I used to get the shit kicked out of me quite regularly in grade school, until my ex-Marine uncle taught me some self-defense. Oh sure, I still got the shit kicked out of me but at least I had the satisfaction of causing some damage, and it took more of them. Now, given a choice, I'll avoid a fight on principle. However, sometimes I wasn't given the option, and in those cases I fought back: on principle.

      If nothing else, I managed to restore my self-respect, and if you don't think that's important you probably don't have any. Self-respect is especially important to someone that is being bullied. The whole point of being a bully is to build up your own self-respect at the expense of someone else's, a kind of mental vampirism. The psychological damage caused by bullying is significant and long-lasting, and school administrators that deal with bullying by futher victimizing the recipients need to learn what food stamps are all about.

      Telling a child that he can't defend himself from a bully is insane, pacifist bullshit more suited to a hippie commune than a school where, I have to say ... KIDS FIGHT. They do, because there's always those few that are violence-prone, and unless the school is prepared to completely excise those bad apples from the student body they have no good reason to punish any other student for fighting back. Generally speaking, schools won't get rid of the complete assholes because they, of course, have "rights". You would think that the kids they beat up would have the "right" to a terror-free school day, but apparently that's not a priority.

      This is obviously just for the convenience of the administration who would rather not deal with the subtleties of why someone was beaten to a bloody pulp. That's unfortunate, because it is an awareness of just those details that can prevent further violence. So, let's take a kid that's already having a hard time, tell him "when you're attacked, don't even think about throwing a punch", and then when he's lying on the ground bruised and miserable we'll suspend his ass for fighting. That's one sensitive administration you have there: what I would take away from that would be "no, we're not on your side, we don't understand right from wrong, really we're on the side of the bullies that are terrorizing you so don't even think of turning to us for help."

      That is probably not the message they think they're sending, but actions speak louder than words.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    2. Re:What a shocker by pi_rules · · Score: 3, Insightful

      However, if you get caught by security guards driving on their golf carts patrolling the student parking lot, they will search your car.

      Here's some advice that will serve you the rest of your life: Never let anybody search your vehicle or home unless they have a warrant. You have a choice. You don't think you do, but it's there. You can always just leave. Exit the premises. If they wish to continue their harassment then they'll need to find a cop and a judge to sign off on a warrant to search your car off premises.

      If they want to search it the next day do the same: Unlock the car, get in, and leave.

      There is nothing they can do, short of visiting violence upon you, to keep you under their control. If they do initiate violence upon you, well, let's address that now.

      There is also another degredation of rights where I go to, pertaining to violence. If someone walks up to you and flat out punches you for no reason, you cannot do anything.

      I'm 26 and this was pretty much the policy in our schools too when I went. Ignore it. If somebody attacks you knock their block off. Fight, and fight dirty. Got a book in your hands? Throw it at them -- when they duck or try and dodge it make contact. Use your surroundings. Floors are usually quite hard objects -- especially school hallways. Get 'em on the ground, get on top, and smash their freaking head into it. See if you can get a friendly high school wrestler to show you a few things -- like how to run a "double leg ride" and a "power half."

      Fight not to avenge, but to stop the threat.

      Sounds a bit extreme, I know, but I presume you're between 16 and 18 years old. The manner in which you act now will take a long time to shake out of your head, if it is ever possible.

      You're becoming an adult, and it's time to act like one. Adults should not submit to random searches by rent-a-cop, or even actual police without a warrant. Adults should not submit to violence visited upon them by thugs on the street.

      Sometimes this means making tough choices. Don't want to be searched? Don't leave campus. If you still decide to leave campus and somebody wants to search your car and you're not too keen on that idea just leave.

      If somebody commits an act of violence upon you you have to make a decision: Shall I presume that the attack will not immediately further and risk being beaten into a bloody pulp, possibly resulting in serious injury? Or should I defend myself and risk suspension?

      Hospital beds suck a lot worse (and cost a lot more) than a suspension. While the suspension can be pretty much guaranteed it is far easier to weather.

      In parting I'd like to make one final observation based upon my conjecture. I presume that you're between the age of 16 and 18 years old given that you can leave campus during school. Further, because this is Slashdot I'm going to presume that you are male. Consider this:

      You are at a time in your life when you are the most likely to resist authority. It comes with the age. You're also at a time in your life when there's as much testosterone flowing through your body as ever before which makes you the most prone to violent actions. If you are conditioned to accept authoritarian control of your life (searching your private property) and further conditioned to accept that violence visited upon you should be met with no resistance then it is going to be one Hell of a battle to get out of that mindset later on in life.

      If you don't stand up for your human rights at this juncture in your life because you're afraid of a suspension or a mark in your school record it will be infinately harder to do it when you've got a good job, a wife, and a family to feed on the line.

  9. It's quite simple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The kids just enter names like 'pot dealer' with the principles home number. They text threatening things to their friends in jest, all pre-agreed between parties. They enter 'Osama bin laden' with the number of their local FBI field office. They text each other about fictional big-time drug deals and terrorist plots. They overload the system with so much false information that the entire exercise becomes pointless and a huge administrative burden.

    The staff should give the pupils full access to their mobile phones as a gesture of good will, you never can be sure what those pesky teachers get up to in their personal lives.

  10. Re:I'm a teacher by Walkiry · · Score: 3, Insightful

    >There was a time when you got CANED for even breathing out of turn.

    And there was also a time when 'niggers' couldn't sit in the same place in a bus as the whites. What's your goddamn point? That because kids were regularly abused in the past in schools, they should be thankful that trampling their privacy is the worst they get?

    School doesn't allow cell phone in the premises? Then the teachers take the phones. There's a whole world of difference between that and messing with the contents.

    --
    ---- Take the Space Quiz!
  11. Wireless Possibilities by pipingguy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "Cell phone data" (depending on the device) could also mean stored info used to help with tests (as opposed to actual studying and learning) or "texting" answers to other students. Anti-drug/violence has nothing to do with this, but perhaps local, state or federal funding comes into play when schools get strapped for cash, so this is one way to get the money.

    This is a somewhat odd story, does Framingham have a serious drug-dealer problem or are they trolling for funding and government money?

  12. What to do.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    0) Before it happens: Set a password/pin code on your phone.

    When a teacher asks you to hand it over:

    1) Remove the battery (the switches the phone off _fast_, requiring password/pin to start it again)
    2) Hand over the phone ("You asked for the phone, you got the phone. You want the battery too..? Here you are.")
    3) When asked for the password/pin advise whoever is asking that you didn't bother remember it, but you have it at home. I doubt that the school has a right to search your home or demand things from it.
    4) ...?
    5) Profit!

  13. Re:I'm a teacher by Bogtha · · Score: 3, Informative

    The school rules will say they're not allowed mobile phones.

    That doesn't matter. Them breaking the school rules does not give you the right to break the law.

    Nobody's rights have been broken, no felony committed

    The Computer Misuse Act 1990 says:

    3.--(1) A person is guilty of an offence if--

    (a) he does any act which causes an unauthorised modification of the contents of any computer; and

    (b) at the time when he does the act he has the requisite intent and the requisite knowledge.

    --
    Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
  14. The terrorists are coming! by Jafar00 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Of course they are right to search these phones. You never know where the terrorists are hiding. These evil students could make one sms message and bam! A building falls down for no good reason. ;)

    --
    RebateFX.com - Spread rebates for Forex traders
  15. Obligatory Daria paraphrasing by Yvanhoe · · Score: 4, Funny

    Jane - Why don't I just go to Ms. Li and expose this whole cell phone spying thing?

    Ms. Morris - She already knows.

    Jane - Okay then back off or I'll tell the PTA.

    Ms. Morris - They know too.

    Jane - Congress?

    Ms. Morris - You're beaten Lane.

    Jane - How about if I call the three local TV stations and tell each one that the other two are running the story?

    Ms. Morris - Damn.

    --
    The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
  16. Re:Quick question. by dfenstrate · · Score: 3, Insightful

    By your logic I should be able to carry a gun around downtown, after all I want to, and it doesn't disrupt anybody, and it's "nobody else's goddamned business"

    Maybe you already know this, but hey, I'll point it out to be sure.

    You can do that in 2/3 of the United States.

    Bloodshed does not ensue.

    Why are you take issue with inanimate objects? Wether it's a gun or a cell phone or a car or a baseball bat, the object does nothing on it's own. He or she that posseses and uses it- makes all the difference in the world.

    --
    Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
  17. Re:Pure and simple by autOmato · · Score: 3, Funny

    How am I supposed to arrange my drug deals then? Smartass!

  18. tell the principal what you think by Loconut1389 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?mode=so&ot=5 &o=636&so=649-6

    Michael J Welch, Principal
    Mailing Address: 115 A Street
    Framingham, MA 01701-4195
    Phone: (508) 620-4963
    FAX: (508) 877-6603
    E-mail: mwelch1@framingham.k12.ma.us

  19. Not only the children, parents lose rights too by Shivetya · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One thing that has been common among "progressive schools" is that parents lose many of their rights governing the activities of their children once they cross the threshold of the school. For a society which likes to admonish parents for not holding their children accountable, discipling them, many think its okay for schools to usurp the parents choices. If you diminish the values of parents the children will lose respect for those values and you get the problem you claim you were trying to avoid.

    In many areas of the country the schools have been too invasive into families and worse they are nearly immune to correction. This is just another symptom of failing schools. When on the downward spiral you make damn sure all those who can criticize you fear you in one way or another. An "unusual" mark on a child - automatic suspicion of child abuse. Too thin, child abuse. Too fat, child abuse. DFACs should know!!! Bad grades, must be from a bad home environment; again child abuse!

    Want absurd? One guy at work mentioned that a neighbor got a letter from the school's counselor. Seems the kid didn't like what he did or did not get in his lunch his mom sent him to school with. The school actually wrote a letter suggesting that the parents aceed to their child's wishes or give him money to buy a school lunch or snacks!!!

    Too many of the schools are run by arrogant self style intellectuals. Another person at work recently moved so his wife could teach in a new school district all to get out from overbearing peers whose views of how children and parents should be handled came close to being unethical. There are many good teachers and administrators but too many are cowed by those who know the system and use it againts "non-conforming teachers", students, and even parents.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  20. Re:Property rights by TubeSteak · · Score: 5, Informative

    ACLU of Northern California
    http://www.aclunc.org/students/guide/searches.html

    "Can the principal or a teacher search me?

    Yes, but only under certain specific circumstances, because you don't give up your right to privacy when you go to school. Under the law, if a school official wants to search you, there are two requirements. First, before he or she searches you, there must be a "reasonable suspicion," based on facts, that the search will produce evidence that you are violating the law or a school rule. For example, the principal would have to have specific information that would lead a reasonable person to believe that a student is carrying a weapon, drugs or cigarettes. Second, the way he or she searches you should be "reasonable" based on your age and what is being searched for.
    These restrictions apply to searches of a student's person (i.e., pat down of clothes, emptying pockets) and any personal belongings, including backpacks, lunch bags, or cars (if they are on school grounds)."

    Reasonable suspicion = all your base are belong to school

    "Remember: if the principal asks if you agree to a search and you say yes, you can turn an illegal search into a legal search."

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
  21. The ends justify the means by HangingChad · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The message we're sending to young people is the ends justify the means. Just like wiretapping millions of Americans justified by the war on terror. There is no bottom to either slope.

    Guess I'm a little surprised how little value freedom has in America these days.

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
  22. DMCA by a_greer2005 · · Score: 3, Funny
    Put a lock code on your phone, and also put a memo on it; if the school confiscates it and reads the memo, they have bypassed a security mesure to illegaly obtain access to your copywrited work.

    sue them

  23. It has to work both ways by Revolver4ever · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I went to Brooklyn Technical High School in New York and it was PLAGUED with scandals. Sexual abuse, underage sex, corrupt principal, teachers stalking kids, etc. You can read about our principal here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn_Technical_Hi gh_School. Just scroll to the bottom for "Lee McCaskill controversy".

    Now I'm all for schools trying to keep drugs and weapons out of schools. But when the school administration itself is playing dirty, who can you trust? What if a pervert of a teacher accuses a girl of selling drugs and looks at her cell phone?

    If a school wants cell phone access for safety, then students (or at least the PTA) should have the same rights. I want to know that my principal is not spending school money to build a house. I want to know that my math teacher is not buying underage kid porn somewhere. I want to know that my dean is not in anger management classes. And so on. Seems extreme and strange for us to have this information right? Well that's the same way students feel when you take their cell phones and look through them.

    --
    If O2 is good, O3 must be 1.5 times better!
  24. STUDENTS agree to go to school? by falconwolf · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Ever hear of a little thing called compulsory attendance? It's more like the law agrees FOR them

    It's compulsory education not compulsory attendance otherwise children wouldn't be homeschooled and more and more children are being homeschooled. As far as I'm concerned policies like this, this cell phone policy, is one of the reasons parents are removing their children from public schools. Another policy I hate is the manditory drug testing many districts and schools have for participation in extra curricular activities. I especially hate the new "No Child Left Behind" from Bush. It stresses teaching for tests not learning and neglects subjects that are harder to measure progress in like arts, and music. Though I don't have any for a long tyme I've thought that if I ever had any children I'd home school them myself, teach what I could and get tutors for what I couldn't teach.

    Falcon
    --
    Should there be a Law?
    1. Re:STUDENTS agree to go to school? by jridley · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Art and music may not (MAY not) result in you getting X% more paycheck, but there are things that are "useful" and "important" that are not related to a paycheck.

      I consider the time I spent in music in high school and college to have been very useful to me, though I don't think they've earned me a dime. I could have easily given up a couple of years of calculus and it wouldn't have affected me at all, including pay or play, but I wouldn't want to have not had my music classes.

      If you want to talk about useless, let's get rid of sports. It's insane how much money is cranked into sports. I don't have much problem with phys ed, but seeing schools that don't have enough teachers or classrooms, but they have a million-dollar football field really bugs me. Though I suppose to the people involved with those, they're important as well.

    2. Re:STUDENTS agree to go to school? by Associate · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Step inside any public high school, you won't likely find many of the 'elective' classes you remember.
      A friend of mine teaches and coaches wrestling. The wrestiling room is in the former shop class. I asked him what happened to all the equipment like saws and such. He said thanks to NCLB they didn't have the money to fund things like shop class. Federal mandate says that the money is to be used on core curiculum, ie test prep. So all the kids who might have benefitted from a little experience with power tools are now not even qualified to work construction. At least now they qualify to work fast food.

      --
      Someone hates these cans.
  25. Earls vs. Board of Education of Tecumseh PSD, 2002 by jdbartlett · · Score: 5, Informative

    You can read more about reasonable suspicion here. Disturbingly:

    The Supreme Court held in Earls vs. Board of Education of Tecumseh Public School District (2002) that random drug testing was `reasonable' and did not violate the Fourth Amendment. The Court also held schools served as `guardian and tutor', could exercise `greater control than those for adults' and had `important interests' in the health and safety of students. The Court finally held that schools did not need to show an `individualized suspicion' nor a `demonstrated problem of drug abuse' and there was no `threshold level' of violation that needed to be satisfied.

    Since it's been established that cell phones are fair game, could this ruling be used in defence of random cell phone checks?

    I'd ask what next, but I fear I already know.

  26. Market for new firmware... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 3, Interesting
    requiring the usual unlock code to view contacts, etc.

    If you enter the correct code, you get an "Invalid Code" message and get to view the real contact info.

    Entering the wrong code gets you a "Correct Code" message and a blank contact list. Unless you retry within 60 sec, all of the data in the phone's NVRAM automatically gets fragged and overwritten with contacts named "F. U. Pig" and "A. Narchy".

    -b.

  27. What is wrong with mandatory drug testing? by falconwolf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What is right about drug testing? What is wrong about letting people do what they want as long as they aren't harming anyone else?

    Teaching for tests is better than not teaching, and, frankly, arts and music aren't very useful.

    Teaching for thinking and the opportunities education opens up is even better, teaching for tests doesn't teach to think. Arts and music aren't "useful"? Try and ask the RIAA and the MPAA if they think the arts aren't useful. The members of these organizations make billions of dollars as do some artists, admittedly not all but some do. Knowing the arts also leads to more creativity and not just in the arts but also in the sciences. Art also enriches culture. Art is very much useful!

    Falcon
    --
    Should there be a Law?
  28. Re:Cell phone access by Wiseleo · · Score: 3, Informative

    The following is just my opinion of a reasonable person who read the text of findings of the Supreme Court. I think the article I am replying to misleading in general, and FUD specifically.

    Let me make it abundantly clear SCHOOL IS GOVERNMENT. All restrictions against government apply except as limited by the Supreme Court.

    Here is the text of the 4th Amendment - http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/am endment04/

    I've been looking into general causes for the failure of US Education system, and found quite a few interesting references a couple of days ago, so this is not totally new. My goal is to entice some reforms once I can afford to do so.

    Now, I've been upset about this policy and its potential impact for several hours since I got back from a nightclub... so thanks for giving me some Supreme Court cases to read. Since you likely haven't read them, I'll post the relevant parts. The TLO case is pretty thorough by itself, but I also think that your "free speech is moot" argument not confirmed by the Hazelwood case. Please read it in your spare time. It concerns limited special circumstances school censorship and disruptions to classroom, but it doesn't waive the 1st Amendment. In case of 4th Amendment, the TLO case reduces "probable cause" to a lower standard and does not require a warrant but doesn't change much else. It doesn't authorize a random baseless search.

    Citing the cases is all well, but let's include full quotations omitted from this text with regards to special circumstances as it's quite key :-). Rights are being stripped daily, and something must be done to stop it. Ironically, it seems like kids will have to read some Supreme Court rulings and get familiar with http://www.flexyourrights.org/

    Looking at New Jersey v. T.L.O. (1985) at http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?n avby=CASE&court=US&vol=469&page=325

    Here is the full paragraph related to 4th Amendment from TLO:

    1. The Fourth Amendment's prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures applies to searches conducted by public school officials and is not limited to searches carried out by law enforcement officers.
    Nor are school officials exempt from the Amendment's dictates by virtue of the special nature of their authority over schoolchildren. In carrying out searches and other functions pursuant to disciplinary policies mandated by state statutes, school officials act as representatives of the State, not merely as surrogates for the parents of students, and they cannot claim the parents' immunity from the Fourth Amendment's strictures. Pp. 333-337. [469 U.S. 325, 326]

    2. Schoolchildren have legitimate expectations of privacy. They may find it necessary to carry with them a variety of legitimate, non-contraband items, and there is no reason to conclude that they have necessarily waived all rights to privacy in such items by bringing them onto school grounds. But striking the balance between schoolchildren's legitimate expectations of privacy and the school's equally legitimate need to maintain an environment in which learning can take place requires some easing of the restrictions to which searches by public authorities are ordinarily subject. Thus, school officials need not obtain a warrant before searching a student who is under their authority. Moreover, school officials need not be held subject to the requirement that searches be based on probable cause to believe that the subject of the search has violated or is violating the law. Rather, the legality of a search of a student should depend simply on the reasonableness, under all the circumstances, of the search. Determining the reasonableness of any search involve

    --
    Leonid S. Knyshov
    Find me on Quora :)
  29. Rights, freedoms and responsibilities by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 4, Informative

    A thing a lot of students don't like to hear is, they simply are not accorded the same status and rights as a majority-age citizen. I know a lot who find that autocratic and unfair, which is (ironically) their right.

    Yes it is, but I disagree with them. The UK has some pretty serious problems right now, and IMNSHO an awful lot of them stem from politically correct initiatives that affect how children may be treated and the rights they have. On the one hand, no forms of corporal punishment are now allowed in our schools, and parents must be wary of even smacking their children for fear of being accused of child abuse. On the other hand, antisocial behaviour has become one of the biggest problems facing our society. I've seen one of my neighbours confronting kids who were about to key the side of his car, and heard one of them shout at him that he couldn't do anything, because the kid was under 10 and he couldn't commit a crime - and I live in a pretty good neighbourhood compared to many places. Similar stories abound, often with responsible adults (including parents and teachers) winding up in court or otherwise under suspicion, while Joe Angelic seems untouchable even if caught red-handed doing something he shouldn't be.

    Now, it doesn't take a genius to spot the connection here. Children don't yet have an adult level of maturity and responsibility; that's why they're still children. Thus it is manifestly unreasonable to treat them the same way as adults and expect the same response. I refuse to support the NSPCC (the biggest child protection charity in the UK) while they maintain that an absolute ban on smacking children is appropriate and use the "you wouldn't smack an adult" argument. We can debate the relative merits of corporal and other forms of punishment, and there are always the "My parents smacked me and it did me no harm" and "Well, I raised a child just fine without ever smacking them" brigades. However, I think even their axiom here is wrong: we do use violence, if necessary, to enforce the law on adults. This is, ultimately, what police forces and the military do. It may be reserved for use as a last resort, but the threat is always there. By excluding this possibility on a far smaller scale, children are actually being given a higher status than adults!

    It happens that in this case, I do disagree with the rule. I think it's absurd that older children should have no default right to privacy, which is what this boils down to. You don't suddenly turn 18 and become responsible, and you're not automatically a menace to society at 17 years and 364 days. If there is a good reason for the adults responsible for that child to think they need to see something on the phone, that's one thing, but there must be a good reason.

    Ultimately, it all comes down to the rights, freedoms and responsibilities thing, as it usually does in these discussions. The two are, or at least should be, fundamentally tied together. As long as you have adults who are legally responsible for minors, they need to have some degree of authority, and the minors can't reasonably expect the same level of rights and freedoms as if they were adults completely responsible for their own behaviour. On the other hand, as children grow older and behave more responsibly, it is inappropriate to deny them any extension of their rights and freedoms to match. Getting the balance wrong, in either direction, will inevitably lead to problems either where children are undisciplined and irresponsible, or where adults take advantage of them inappropriately.

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    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.