Slashdot Mirror
Talking iPods
chrisb33 writes to tell us the next iteration of the iPod may talk you through the menus instead of just relying on text. The Scotsman speculates on this new technology based on a patent filed by Apple in the US. From the article: "The patent reveals the idea is driven largely by safety considerations. It states: 'A user will have difficulty navigating the interface in "eyes-busy" situations. Such activities include, for example, driving an automobile, exercising and crossing the street." The patent also makes clear that text-to-speech technology is likely to spread to other hand-held electronic devices such as mobile phones and palm-top computers."
Automobile... missed old timey bicycle, though!
Scotty: "Computer... Computer... (McCoy hands Scotty the mouse) Scotty: "Aye. Hello computer." -- "Just use the keyboard." (Scotty flexes fingers and begins typing) Scotty: "Keyboard. How quaint."
From the Editor's short summary, without actual references to the patent text, it look like a very obvious patent again. Text to speech applyed to menu navigation. Nothing new here.
Léa Gris
Rockbox has had this for ages now. It's a replacement MP3 operating system, originally for the Archos machines, but now even runs on the later generation iPods.
The Rockbox open-source firmware for iPods and various other players has been supporting talking menus for ages. (Sorry, the Rockbox wiki seems to be down for the moment.)
Furthermore, it's free and does not try to lock you out of your music.
So what's up with the patent?
If I whistle to my iPod a few seconds of a song melody, I would like to see it identify the track and then play it! I'm sure it would be impossible, but at least it would be more patent-worthy!
"innovation"
"The ingenious system"
"clever software"
Give me a break!
If MP3's are still arranged in a geometric structure (trees of various sortings) and unless some new metaphor is introduced, iPods will still require spatial reasoning to navigate. While driving, I argue that there is one task and one task alone that should be getting full spation reasoning awareness: driving.
What makes this worse is the translation from spatial to textual. This requires the user to reconstruct the spatial, requiring even more concentration.
How about voice recognition? Call out the artist or album and listen away!
The author seems fairly certain that a patent equals an imminent new feature, but that's not the case. A patent is a patent. Apple may implement this in 6 Gen iPods, they may wait for later revisions, they may never implement the feature.
Technology companies, especially Apple, have piles patented software features, devices, etc that have never seen the light of day. And speaking of piles, one of which is actually called "piles."
As I recall, Apple also has also recently patented several different new hardware interfaces for the iPod. You can bet money they're not all going to be implemented. Heck, none of them may be implemented.
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
me > hello, thanks for calling me back_ man_and_dj_touch-tonight.mp3
*ipod changes* playing album: hello my name is q
*ipod changes* The Calling - Thank You.mp3
me > shut up!
caller > what?
*ipod changes* 03-lil_kim-shut_up_bitch.mp3
me > no not you, my ipod is freaking me out
*ipod changes* Ali G Indahouse-Da Soundtrack/14-another_level-freak_me-rns.mp3
caller > you know its weird to talk to that thing right?
me > your driving me crazy
*ipod changes* Fidel Cashflow (2005) - Rap/06-stack_bundles-hustlers_go_crazy.mp3
caller > what ever, forget the job!
me > no, wait a minute!
*ipod changes* ez-rollers/lickable_beats_lp_sampler/09-60_minute
real men dont mark this funny, real men mark it insightful!
Well, Duh, I have a navigation device that uses speech too (TomTom). There is mountains of prior art here. Yes I know they are talking about navigating menus, but hell, If I have a map of London, can I still patent maps of New York? WTF?
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
There is much prior art to block this. Just telephone any big business and see! Press one if you wish to ..... and all that stuff.
.....
It would be supremely ironic if the USPTO are using a voice menu on their telephone system, and don't laugh it out of the door
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
I mean, it's pretty much impossible these days to actually stop whatever it is you're doing for a second and you know.. focus solely on changing the current playlist/album/track, this is because you might be vaporized by killer robot if you dont keep an eye out.
Rockbox has this functionality already.
E'nuf said
Ben
So this safety-driven innovation will make it easier to operate an iPod while driving a car... part of me is astonished that anyone would be stupid enough to try to navigate an iPod menu while driving, but another part of me remembers that we live in a society that consistently produces Darwin Award winners of the highest calibre.
That quote at the bottom that starts off sounding like a cautious endorsement from a safety watchdog is, in fact, saying they're still miles off:
"If people don't need to take their eyes off the road and hands off the wheel then there are clear benefits to that."
and yet:
"Users of the music players will still operate the Clickwheel as normal"
Apple is probably doing this to make their devices more accessible to the blind. OS X has a fairly sophisticated accessibility suite, and perhaps their extending it to their iPods. I know a blind person who would love to have an iPod, if it were accessible.
All of that said, I really hope this is something I can turn the fuck off. When I got my mobile phone it made a noise every time I'd press a button, when I'd turn it off, when I'd turn it on, when I'd dial a number, and probably a few things that I never got to. I was glad that I could turn it all off, otherwise I would have had to return it.
There seems to be an obsession with our technology beeping and buzzing to respond to our input. I know when I press a button; I don't need a noise to tell me what happened. The only time my phone needs to make noise is when I'm getting a phone call.
Help I'm a rock.
What part of the studies that show the problem is your MIND being distracted doing other things while driving, not just having your eyes off the road, it is that Apple doesn't understand?
Think of the possibilities. The ultra cool fashionista who loses all credibility when the iPod annpounces they are listening to Celine Dion for example. Cue a quick grab for the play ans a face saving "No, no, the machine's screwed - I'm listening to the Arctic Monkeys honestly..." Similarly do you really want to know the respectable commuter sitting opposite you is listening to "F**k like a beast"
I REALLY hate it in video games the most. I am capable of reading, yet every game tutorial on earth insists on having everything spoken to me at just the slowest speed so that the average joe can follow what is going on.
One of my favorite games (Battlefield 2) is almost ruined by the constsant spamming in my ears of "Enemy unit spotted!" "ok" "roger sir" "well done team" etc.
Text is easy to skip, but voices arent, we seem naturally designed to respond to a voice, but we can ignore text. any device, application or game that talks to me just feels like someone nagging me. Besides, what accent will it have? pretty much everyone has at least one accent they hate, are people assuming a US accent is univerally appreciated?
Can you *imagine* how much MORE annoying the office paperclip would be if it spoke to you?
DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
The proyect http://www.agrip.org.uk/AudioQuake">AGRIP whas make to make blind people able to play deathmach games with Quake, years ago.
-Woof woof woof!
Like in the talking moose?
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
Wow this deserves a patent?
Lets see, a bunch of engineers gets together for lunch.
"Hey dude, I got a great idea, I hate it when im on a train and I need to get out my ipod, and fear
getting robbed while I pop out my $400 ipod, I want voice menus."
Any one with a bit of 5 minutes spare would have put this in the todo list years ago.
Any one who wants super million dollar patents, email me, I have 1000 ideas worthy of patents, some 50 years ahead of
any technology capability of today.
Oh we copied statrek '60s tv shows? wow, these patent people must be outsourced from india, never having watched 1000 scifi tv shows.
Seriously, any new patent which has aleady been in a tv show should not be patented.
Contact me, I'll make you millions, all I ask is a 10% cut in profits unless there is zero then its min 5% pure revenue.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
So now when i'm travelling to work on the train every morning, not only do i have to put up with excessively loud music coming from peoples headphones, and people talking on their mobile phones, but *now also* people talking to their ipods. Great, just ******* great. -_-
Anyone know where i can buy a portable, re-usable EMP device with say a 50m range?
This is not only great for eye-busy situations, but for accessability. I know a few friends that are blind that are going to love this feature.
As the text-to-speach is done on the computer by iTunes, it shouldn't be too hard to replace the voice talent...
How long before the "Marklar" edition (South Park), or a "Chef" one gets created?
I'm pretty sure listening to an iPod or any other device that requires you to stick things in your ears while driving is illegal in most states anyway. If you are driving just use the car radio.
I was actually just thinking a few days ago (for about the 100th time) why MP3 players didn't have voice prompts for at least some things, like "battery low" - it'd be a lot better if it said "battery low" than if it just stopped working. It's not much of a step from there to voice menus.
Oooh, do I get to have the same sexy robotic Vicki voice that my Mac gives me?
This iPod adapter that Honda makes does this; it reads to you the names of your albums, and you select the one you want when it says it.
Too bad it sucks. First of all, it would take, like, 2 hours to read me all of my albums on my iPod, so I can't jump to anything quickly... also, you have to click a button with a second or so of it reading the one you want. This is a bad idea when driving; the only thing I should have to respond to in a timely manner while driving is, well, driving.
One review I read of it likened the experience to handing your iPod to a friend on the other side of a door and having them read the contents to you, then poking them with a coathanger when they read the song you want.
I think I have talked my mother through using interfaces over the phone at least 1/2 dozen times. Last one: "Ok mom, open firefox No go to piratebay.org. uh-huh, yeah you can find music. Search for American Idol. No you are not downloading the music. You need to use a bittorrent client to download the music. Ok, lets get you a client. . ."
This is a very good step in the right direction. If you've ever tried to ride in as a passenger in a car with someone who insists on playing their best music on their ipod for you, you know what I mean. "Put down the ipod and drive you crazy......YOU'RE IN THE WRONG LANE" "Want to listen to Queen?" Aforementioned driver is splitting time between the ipod and road, not a comforting thought. Considering teenagers have ipods, and teenagers are unexperienced, and teenagers are being distracted while driving, text to speech can save lives.
Hah! I had this back in 1997 in my 1986 Honda Civic!
... Back when everyone else was trying to stare at those little 2x16 character displays!
Vehicular MP3 player with vocal interface (computer was stashed in the trunk of course).
NuFrosty
There is a service that BT supply in the UK that allows a mobile text message to be sent to a normal landline phone. And guess who they have got to do the voice? The Dr! Well Tom baker anyway.
Which means 2bit radio dejays can have hours of fun texting rude words to it.
try to make ends meet, you're a slave to money, then you die
I'd like to believe this, but frankly, Apple has been letting their TTS and STT features languish since they were introduced to Mac OSX.
Speakable Items (speech to text commands) are a very simple arrangement: the engine is listening for a finite set of strings at any given time, so error rates are low. Fortunately, the set of strings is gathered from a set of filenames, so it's super-easy to make new strings and organize them by application. Unfortunately, most of the newer applications that are bundled with OSX have no hooks for automation nor sample scripts as speakable items. The speakable item must be an AppleScript or .app, for no discernable reason; I would love to be able to have voice-activated shell scripts without going through some ugly hack of a wrapper script, since it's "Unix" and all.
VoiceOver (text to speech prompting) is also fairly straightforward, but there's limited support and somewhat inconsistent controls. Many of the blind folks I've seen using voice prompts on other devices want their voice prompts to be very fast, even so far as to blur the words together into abstract "earcons." The AppleScript-invoked speech does not honor the OSX talking speed preferences, so the words just ramble on taking forever to finish. The talking is not a separately controllable volume channel, so if you turn up the iTunes, then the TTS voice will start yelling at you to compete, or worse, not be able to escape the iTunes mute control.
This is just a rumor, but for the sake of those who like or need good voice features in their interfaces, I hope it signals a new drive to finish what they've started here.
[
While driving, I argue that there is one task and one task alone that should be getting full spation reasoning awareness: driving.
I agree in principle that just reading off menu items to us is adding a level of abstraction, not simplifying anything. We haven't really seen how this would work, but it sounds like nothing much new. (Pre-OS X Macs certainly did this too.)
The thing about cars is, radios and cells phones are also distracting. When each of those came out people said they distracted from people's driving, and despite our unthinking acceptance even radios really do that, you know? We're not just talking about spatial reasoning to figure out where on the dial we are left to right, we're talking about a device that deliberately obscures the sounds of traffic. Those shuddering bass-heavy cars thumpa-thumping at intersections can't possibly hear an ambulance. Let's not even start on cell phones.
If they had to choose one thing to concentrate on, and okay obviously they don't, I'd tell Apple engineers to work out the stupid line-to-my-car-stereo thing. Yeah, I know there are options, and they're all too expensive and cumbersome. In reach with an easy hookup, please. In general car interiors get a ton of attention and still suck. It's amazing how the cup holders are crucially important to drivers, and turn out to be flimsy and awkward in so many cars. Just turn a little of that Apple attention to making things simpler there.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
Wasn't it Mythbusters who showed that driving while talking on a cell phone was as bad as driving drunk? It's not so much the fact our eyes are averted when we fiddle with things, it's the fact that our attention is still diverted while we try to listen to the iPod chattering on about what menu we've selected.
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
This is not for eyes off situations like when your driving. This is so that bind users can actually have full benefit of the iPod. My Blind fried would ifnd the current iPod usesless. He's more apt to go to the iPod Shuffle because of it's easier interface. With voice added, they could navigate it an dbe able to know what they are listening to.
Gorkman
before adding all of the gee-whiz crap? AM/FM tuner and voice recorder, anyone?
If Apple didn't patent this for the iPod then someone else would come out with an mp3 player and then sued Apple for putting it into the iPod.
If this "talking iPod" thing happens, I sure hope it's an option that can be switched off. Actually, it sounds very un-Apple. Too nerdy. More like something you'd expect from Microsoft.
People who do not work in assistive technology often confuse voice recognition (the touch-less interface hinted at by the Taiwanese press) with speech synthesis (the current article associated with this thread). I read about this patent a month ago and was excited because I though Apple were finally making the iPod accessible to people who are blind. I now believe the patent is merely about these stupid shoes for sighted yuppies. Very disappointing.
I paid the going retail price for a Windows screen reader and got a free Unix computer!
Apple have already implemented this technology! This so called news is two months old. Those snipping about patent abuse are way off target. I initially thought: Great, something for the Blind! That was naive. It is all about the shoes. Nothing to see here, please move along. Disappointing on several levels.
I paid the going retail price for a Windows screen reader and got a free Unix computer!
In case anybody is wondering, I only know about that because I'm currently doing audio interface research, and I had read one of his papers so I had looked up what other work he's currently working on. I have no affiliation with him or UNC, but I thought some Slashdotter's may find that project interesting.
Read my blog posts on usability.
PhatBox has had this feature for years.
http://www.phatnoise.com/
OK - this is definitely a bogus patent. For one, RockBox already provides this functionality (in a more limited sense right now) albeit without using a TTS engine. Though it could (e.g. using flite). But the article says that the patent mentions future developments bringing speech menus to other devices?!? Hello?!? Has Apple paid attention to developments in the past couple of years? There already are speech-output capable PDAs and cellphones on the market. Look at any reputable site concerning accessible devices for the blind, and you'll find just how much already exists right now. The blind community has even commented on the lack of speech support in the iPod (so it is not a surprise that Apple is finally paying attention, now that they realize that there is a larger market for this feature).
Of course, based on the US Patent Office's track record I would not at all be surprised if this patent actually gets granted.
The Macintosh has spoken since day 1.
Ipod, what took you so long?
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Not that i'm saying this isn't a bad thing to have audio instructions, but if they are endorsing using your iPod while you are "eyes-engaged" i think they'll be looking for trouble.
if they really want to be safe, they should advise you to familiarize yourself with the iPod before driving, and only use the iPod while stopped.
-IMHO
The article is about the iPod talking, not talking to your iPod. Really, you should be modded off-topic. And you meant to write you're not your. Mixing up voice recognition with speech synthesis is one of my pet peeves. The story is old news and my personal theory is that the speculation is overly optimistic. I think it is just about the shoes.
I paid the going retail price for a Windows screen reader and got a free Unix computer!
Rockbox has had this exact capability for quite a while already. Since 2004-03-14 I believe. You can generate speech files for every mp3/etc. file on your device, and it'll get played back when you scroll through lists and menus. Menu items have their own pre-synthesized files, and if there's no file available, it'll spell out the letters of the song.
True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
It's unlikely Apple is applying for a patent just on the "idea" of voice menus. Even their own work would be prior art on this. What they are patenting is a specific new algorithm for converting text to speach. Having prior art on text to speach doesn't mean they haven't invented a new novel algorithm for doing it better.
So, if you have an algorithm which implements all those ideas you see on TV, you might want to do something about it.
The only REALLY unique thing about the ipod is the click wheel. Other then that, it just happens to be the MP3 player that's cool to have.
Around 2000 or 2001 I bought my first MP3 player, and it was while trying to use it at night while driving that I came up with the obvious idea that each button should SAY what it is, rather than make me fumble and HOPE I'm clicking the right thing. I really thought it was a no-brainer considering the device is already built for playing back recordings. Only a tiny fraction of the memory would have been required for a few compressed word recordings like "stop", "play", "select [option]", etc...
I really thought this was a no-brainer that manufacturers would eventually come up with. I really didn't think it would take 5 years though! At least Apple has taken the idea and run with it, including full song title text-to-speech.
I like the idea, because I use my ipod in my car. The problem is, that I am unable to see the iPod. The only thing I can do without looking is 'next/previous track' and 'turn up/down' the music. Let's assume I am looking for a special track then I actually have to look at my iPod screen and navigate through the menu. The talking iPod sounds cool, but so far every talking computer had a horrible voice. It just sounded horrible. I want a sexy voice. For some reason I am thinking about the Command&Conquer voice. The other issue would be that this might get pretty old... think about it you are driving home from work and the sexy command&conquer voice says 'main menu -> album -> ...' "SHUT THE FSCK UP. YOU ARE STARTING TO..."
and _you're_ an asshole with _your_ condecending english first attitude, i tried to mod you asshole but i think they removed it since you joined. not reading the artical is a slashdot trait, the same as the slashdot moderating system when, every funny gets an unfunny, every long informative gets a fair, every long troll gets an unfair.
..that Apple were going to make the iPod equivalent of the Furby. http://www.hasbro.com/furby/
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
ipod to use voice because a visual interface doesn't work properly in eyes-busy situations?
...
Begging my pardon, but in an eyes-busy situation, you probably are going to be concentrating too much on something to properly hear the voice prompts, or you're attention is going to suddenly split between current task and ipod, giving a moment of zero concentration.
Of course I'm sure it'll be just fine if the eyes-busy situation in question is the cute girls' butt who is jogging in front of you
I am almost sorry I mentioned the your/you're thing, especially since I gave a pass on your being too lazy to bother with capitalizing sentences. I rarely play the grammar Nazi, but since I was commenting already... Oh, and it says a lot about your character that: (1) You immediately resort to profanity when criticized; (2) Are so unimaginative or impulsive that you use the same vulgarity twice in such an otherwise brief and vacuous reply; and (3) Post said rebuttal anonymously!
I paid the going retail price for a Windows screen reader and got a free Unix computer!
They start talking. I give up.
Great Intellect...
Safety experts have raised concerns over cyclists, pedestrians and motorists being involved in accidents when they are distracted by their digital music devices.
Which is why it's illegal in California to wear earphones in phone ears while driving a vehicle or riding a bike. It's California Vehicle Code 27400. Not many people would think to read the CVC for rules and laws outside the DMV handbook. Ane even fewer would read it to see if they're violating any laws while on a bike. Yes, this is enforced. A friend of mine got a ticket for it.
You know, this will enable blind people to be able to use an iPod, which is nice, but may be impracticle for non-blind users to search through thousands of songs simply to not take it out of a pocket. And if driving, well, like with finding a particular CD, why not just wait for a stop?
Now if Apple were to release an iPod with a small speaker, that would be pretty damned cool, even if the sound quality sucks.
It's a girl!
"I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that..."
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Phatbox, an mp3 hard-drive box for the car, has had audio menus for years.
It plugs into a CD changer interface and using the buttons on most head units, you can go forward/backward through playlists, genres, artists, albums, etc.
It tells you where you are in the menus, so you don't have to look at it. (Another good reason is that the CD changer interface is not sophisticated enough to show that data on the head unit...)
I think there's some alternative/oss text-to-speech sw out there, too.
If Chaos Theory has taught us anything, it's that we must kill all the butterflies.
sounds like a cheap, dumb gimmick. but i guess they have to try something to keep peoples mids off the ipod killer ;)
I swear iPods have been talking to me for years. Every time I go to the Apple Store, I hear voices saying, "Buy me!"
ps. damn it, i posted this elsewhere first by mistake (one of the discussions I looked into to find my old post)
ps. turned out I posted it with this nickname, after all
Its about time. I am "legally" not totally but close to being blind.
I can not read the displays on most electronic devices cell phones PDA's etc.
PS. Its about time. visually impared.
forgot to mention that My Nextel i355 reads some of the menus to me. I had to download an update from Motorola and flash the phone. Well its not the best implamentation but it helps. To bad the thing is a brick.
Speaking menus would make I-Pods more accessable to the visually impared.
Apple trying to patent speaking menus? Anothe example of frivalis patens vs the public good and trying to patent something that someone thought up.
Many things that improve accesabiliy for the disabled also benifit the the general public.