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Babylon 5 Coming Back?
SaturnTim writes "Babylon 5 fans rejoice! It appears that our favorite space outpost is back. It will be returning soon in a series of direct-to-DVD 20min episodes, each featuring the past of one of our favorite characters."
It's interesting that this is a straight to DVD production. I'm not a huge fan of Babylon 5 but I am very interested to see what distribution method they seek.
The recent news is Warner Bros. is putting Babylon 5 on iTunes. That's right, you'll be able to purchase episodes of the sci-fi show on iTunes. Could they promote this service by releasing The Lost Tales a few weeks early on iTunes? I think they could probably garner quite a bit of money from Apple if they were willing to do that.
After all, what better fanbase for Apple to secure than the Babylon 5 tech/trek group? Old nerds with lots of money and few vices. I know some people at work that would buy a video iPod just to have copies of Babylon 5 on their person at all times.
This could probably be a television show that successfully bypasses all traditional forms of distribution which would set huge precedence for weaning the public from the glass teat.
My work here is dung.
It won't be the same without G'Kar, one of my two favorite characters.
Where were you when the voynix came?
With apologies to Star Trek fans everywhere, I agree.
GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
I'm definately excited to hear this news! I recently dusted off some of my old B5 tapes and the show still rocks. I used to love it when I was about 17 and it's still awesome today. I'd watch it every week wth some friends.
I never realized how popular it was 500 mil in DvD sales, thats pretty darn good.
I liked the Babylon 5 series just fine, but it had an ambitious overarching plot which did advance over time, albeit slowly and vaguely, that made it a bit more interesting than an ordinary space opera. Shows about the past of the characters sounds mainly like a way to milk the cash cow represented by the most diehard fanboys and anyone who doesn't have any, whaddayacallem, standards. It doesn't require much creative effort in terms of plot, it's just exploiting the franchise.
G'KAr had so much makeup on for his character, that you could probably easily replace him and not really tell.
I'm betting that the series will be about Sheridan's actions during the Earth-Minbari war. That would provide sufficient eye-candy and war drama for a plot, while at the same time confining the characters to those of primarily human or Minbari origin, keeping G'Kar out of the picture (RIP Mr. Katsulas). Also, during this time frame, Stephen Franklin was galavanting around the galaxy learning about xenobiology, so this war setting would also keep his character out of the picture (RIP. Mr. Biggs).
There is no mod option "-1: Disagree" for a reason. "Overrated" is not an acceptable substitute. Post something instead.
Strazinski could still do a G'Kar story, showing the effects of G'Kar's travels around the galaxy. G'Kar himself wouldn't actually have to appear.
Technoli
You've obviously never seen Red Dwarf.
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It has the distinction of being possibly the best planned series of any kind in history. From what I've read, they had the entire 5 year story arc fully plotted out before they started shooting the first episode of season 1. Sure they had to wing it on a few things where there were unforseen circumstances, but for the most part it's a stunning example of what you can do when you actually planned the full 5 seasons, and managed to actually produce all five of them before someone dropped the axe and made you rush your plot to close in like, season 3 or 4.
.... THAT'S why he did that!!", remembering that would tie in maybe an entire season or two later as a very important plot arc. Good lord, how long did they push that "there is a hole in your mind!" before letting us in on it?
I have the entire box set of all seasons, and I still enjoy watching it from the start. Time and time again I spot something, some subtle hint, puzzling comment, even a look from a character in reaction to something seemingly harmless, only to realize "oh
I rather doubt these new minis will be very good, as most of the time such similar minis are almost worthless, but I'll probably still watch them, if nothing else than to revisit the past. I'm sure they willl continue to backfill missing or mysterious plot elements from the original series with these new additions, and that alone should be worth the watch.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
This series rocked, in its day. I'm not willing to say it was the best thing on TV ever, but i think it makes the top 5. Actions taken by characters had consequences, and fundamentally changed their relationships with other characters - not a static universe where a new episode happened every week but nothing fundamentally changed. It was a realistic world, where characters needed money to live, and there was greed, and corruption, and crime, and an underworld. There were complex characters - even the bad guys were not "one dimensional" - they had their own agendas and loyalties and were not presented as some simplistic "pure evil". Semi-decent newtonian mechanics for spaceships.
It was good stuff. And although the special effects look dated now, at the time, it was amazing to see battles with 100 separate ships on TV - that kinda thing had been reserved for the movies up until then.
With apologies to both of you, I'm gonna have to give my vote to Firefly, even if it has no hope of ever seeing the kind of resurrection that B5 is getting.
"You will pay for your lack of vision..." - Emperor Palpatine to Ray Charles
...is like reading Playboy for the articles.
With apologies to Star Trek fans everywhere, I agree.
B5 did have very good story telling, though I wish the FX, posting and acting was better. Most of the CG was rendered in 60fps interlaced rather than 24fps progressive telecined, so it looks downright awful on a progressive display or computer, deinterlacers don't help either. In "Comes The Inquisitor" the Captain's audio says "East" when his mouth is saying "West", and that was so obvious to me on first pass. The Star Trek series had much easier to watch visuals.
Personally, I think Firefly had so much more potential, too bad it got shot down. I think the quality of what was made beats the first season of any other Sci-fi TV show I've seen.
X-Files Hands Down
With apologies to Star Trek fans everywhere, I agree.
;)
Your opinion is highly illogical.
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
If you go to ZHaDum You Will DIE!
I just dont know when.
War isn't about who's right. It's about who's left.
as a "former stripper" then I'm not interested.
:)
I just realized that I wasted a good bit of 1994+ on that show
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Not a real fan of Babylon 5, but give rise to hope that someday, Firefly will get similar treatment. (Why SciFi didn't pick up that series after FOX dumped it, I'll never know.)
Best guesses why SciFi didn't want Firefly:
1) Production costs were too high.
2) Production costs weren't unreasonable for a show of this type, but SciFi didn't have the money for another series with this kind of costs. Please keep in mind that Battlestar Gallactica has little in the way of "eye candy", which really helps to keep its costs down.
3) Realization that despite the fact that Firefly fans were truly devoted to the show, there just weren't enough of them. The box office returns on the movie (I don't even remember the name of it) should have been proof of this.
Given what SciFi did to Sliders, which at one time was a good show, I wouldn't bet on Firefly remaining as good as it supposedly was when Fox ran it. Everyone seems to forget that Sliders just got worse and worse on SciFi. The series final was so bad that I don't care if there is ever another episode. I won't watch it. I won't even watch Sliders in reruns or rent the DVDs, this how pissed off I still am at how the series finale went down. SciFi could have just as easily have destroyed Firefly if they had bought it.
I'm sorry, but I can't watch Babylon 5 anymore.
Battlestar Galactica has raised the bar, for me, personally, so high that most other sci-fi fare looks and sounds like scrapings from the bottom of a barrel. I realize and understand that the two shows have completely different themes, styles, etc., but the differences in production values and acting quality are especially marked.
The same goes for Stargate (any version), Firefly, and Enterprise or even the new Dr. Who.
I'm not judging anyone who still likes those shows or saying I don't like them anymore. BG has just completely changed my perception of what sci-fi can and should be.
obviously no deficiencies vs. no obvious deficiencies
I watched an episode of B5 once and I was like this show sucks! But then a friend told me, no no no, you need to watch it from the beginning. Luckily, being in the tech field, a fellow co-worker had all episodes on VHS tapes and gladly let me borrow them to convert me to the cult, er, I mean let me enjoy the show.
I spent a few weeks going through all the episodes of the series. I believe at the time, we were at the start of season 4.
I ended up LOVING B5, and it became one my favorite shows of all time! Everything about the show was great and even though things were iffy in the last 2 seasons, the show was great.
Would I, as a big fan of B5, want to see these shwos about the past of the characters? MAYBE. I am more interested about the future, that's just the way I am. Others way want to know more about the past of the characters, but I agree with the parent, I'm not so sure many people will want this.
...is there anything like a good prequel?
You have Star Wars, I think they were considering Star Trek: Junior Hi... eh, Starfleet Academy. As if Enterprise wasn't bad enough where they jumped way past the TOS technology in half a season. In fact there already was a B5 spin-off TV series (Crusade) that had a lot more potential.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Eventually a show has to end, and Bab5 ended very well with only a few after series spin-off-death-throes. Trying to bring back to life Frankenstien is not always a good idea. Bab5 was great, it ended great, its time to let it go. If you want to Rez something go talk to the browncoats.
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise. -Fight Club
Wow. You must not have seen the same episodes that I was watching...so you're saying that Andreas Katsulas, Mira Furlan and Peter Jurasik couldn't act. Astounding...*shakes head*
I think some people have a romanticised image of Babylon 5.
Bear in mind that, at the time, the only other Sci-Fi on Tv was Star Trek: The Next Generation. That was not a good show. So B5 didn't exactly have to work much to stand out as the best thing on TV.
It performed a function of breaking the Star Trek stranglehold. It showed people sci-fi could have more depth. But compared to some of what came after (Firefly, Battlestar Galactica, new Dr. Who) it is nothing special.
Its like people saying Citizen Kane was the best movie ever. It was certainly better than anything that came out at the time - but since then others have taken its ideas and improved upon them. Same for B5
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
And hell, I didn't realize that Richard Biggs was dead too.
"Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
B5 video tapes are sold in my local Eurosaver store for 2 euros each. That should be sufficient to figure what their commercial worth is these days.
It failed.
But in the year of the Shadow War, it became something greater: our last, best hope - for victory.
Maybe there's hope for Firefly.
"Bear in mind that, at the time, the only other Sci-Fi on Tv was Star Trek: The Next Generation"
Actually, B5 was out around the same time as "Star Trek: Deep Space 9".
Where were you when the voynix came?
From what I've read, they had the entire 5 year story arc fully plotted out before they started shooting the first episode of season 1.
4. Season 5 was something of a surprise.
Unfortunately, it shows.
I never liked Babylon 5. Your explanation helps me to understnad why some people really like the show. It sounds like a good show based upon your description, and from all of the episodes I've seen I'd have to say you are correct. However, I still don't enjoy it at all. Can't really articulate why as well as the parent explained why it ws a good show. I guess as some troll mentioned the acting wasn't the greatest, but acting is rarely good in scifi and I still like many other shows with worse acting. Maybe, it was too complex for me. Perhaps, it was too much like a soap opera.
It had simular mood music. SciFi should have death metal -- ALL THE TIME. That would rock.
Jugga Jigga Wugga
Defcon
Jugga Jigga Wugga
Death star
Jugga Jigga Wugga
Dilithium Crystal
Jugga Jigga Wugga
Death Ray
Jugga Jigga Wugga
Dimensional Time Warp
Jugga Jigga Wugga
Deflector shields
And so on. With appologies and props to Strong Bad.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
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"(the security guy.)"
You mean Jerry Doyle? He's now a talk radio host. http://www.jerrydoyle.com/
1 is the square root of all evil.
Babylon 5 is hardly "back." Direct to DVD 20 minute character episodes hardly qualify as any sort of ressurection. As for the greatest sci-fi TV series of all time, for me it's a no-brainer: Doctor Who. And I'm not talking about the newer episodes, I'm taking about the series as a whole. Babylon 5 was great but it didn't instill the sort of eternal love that series like Doctor Who (and even Star Trek: the Next Generation to some degree) have. To this very day if I walked outside and saw a Dalek or Patrick Stewart I would shit my pants, a creature or actor from Babylon 5, not so much.
That having been said those are my personal picks, I'm sure that for many Babylon 5 fans it's quite the other way around. I enjoyed the series, it just wasn't spectacular for me. I've never seemed to truly favor station-based series, I prefer travelers like the Enterprise, the Tardis, the Stargate, etc. I also was not impressed by the special effects in Babylon 5, they were actually kind of crappy. Much crappeir than those in Star Trek: the Next Generation if you ask me. The plot and the actors in Babylon 5 were both very important to me and they screwed them both up pretty bad as the series progressed. In show like Star Trek and Doctor Who the plot really doesn't matter too much, as long as they're still flying around having crazy adventures it's all good.
Actually I'm kind of pissed at the new Doctor Who. Not having any Daleks or any Time Lords (besides the Doctor of course) pretty much kills my two favorite races. I'm informed they can't really not have any more Dalek episodes though, after all, the man does travel through time and the Daleks are his greatest enemy. He's bound to run into Daleks in the past.
I'm also pissed at Stargate, mostly at the retirement of you-know-who. What ever that dude from Farscape's name is needs to die. He's like one of those kids I always wanted to punch in the face while playing football. He's not a good replacement for the offbeat Colonel at all. The new general is also a poor replacement for General Hamond. He seems more like one of those nameless military types you'd see in one scene of a movie - he looks and sounds the part but he has no personality. I don't mind the crazy lady because she's, well, crazy but her Farscape boyfriend has got to go (or start acting less annoying).
Haiku for you!
I think selling ANYTHING on video tape for 2 euros is rather ambitious these days.
AIUI, Fox wouldn't let it go. DVD sales may be a better indicator of the number and quality of devotion of the fans.
As for #3, I think that may also have been in part thanks to sites like savewash.com (no link, since it's been replaced by domain squatters) that leaked info from sneak peeks and previews. Gods know, I wish I'd seen the site before the movie. (Rant about that part of the movie omitted.)
See the comment a few above... Originally it was planned for four. There were issues with the network, possibility of no season 5 when season 4 was going into production. They compressed things to try and wrap up in season 4. However, things worked out so there would be a season 5. So now, season 5 was 'off schedule' since parts of it were pulled into season 4, meaning there was a need for some padding and reworking and whatnot.
From what I've read, they had the entire 5 year story arc fully plotted out before they started shooting the first episode of season 1.
Nope, they only had the first season written, since back then they had no idea whether the series would be successful enough to justify funding for the rest. Then on, they only wrote storylines for the oncoming season. It's only when they had finished shooting the fourth season that they got the surprise (and late) approval for a fifth season, which explains it pretty much stands apart from the rest (most of the major arcs ended in the 4th season).
You have to remember that B5 was the first TV series to use massive CGI and its production costs were giganormous for the time!
I've just re-watched the whole series (+ movies) over a 6-weeks span... Great Maker, it felt good seeing Londo and G'Kar again!
Now if only Farscape could get its fifth season too, that'd make my day! Good thing there's BSG to fill the gap.
-- It's always darker before it goes pitch black.
Sure the original series was not quite at the same level as Battlestar Galactica (though I would argue that the overall plot may have been as good a premise, it's just character development and twists were not quite as impressive).
But these new episodes are written in todays world, where viewers and writers have seen Battlestar galactica, and good quality computer effects are cheaper and more impressive than ever. There is no reason to think we might see improvement both in story and in cinematography, and have some really good episodes to watch.
I plan to buy them partly to give the stories a chance, but also I very much want to express support for direct to DVD sales of shows. Potentially that could be a route that we might someday see Firefly again, there was an effort along those lines but it seems to have fizzled.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
> A case in point, right in the Pilot episode, when Kosh met Captain Sinclair for the first time he addressed him as Entil'Zha. I don't think that name or it's significance appeared again until around season 3. Watching the pilot you just ignored it. You figure it's just how these aliens greet people. When I later went back to rewatch the entire series from the beginning I was completely blown away when I heard Kosh say that because by then I knew the significance of it. Wow, talk about planning in advance.
But what I really want to see revived is Space Above and Beyond. A far superior series to almost all the series mentioned above, well ahead of its time, and killed far too soon by a dumbass Fox.
It has the distinction of being possibly the best planned series of any kind in history
Science Fiction folks need to understand that there have only been a half dozen SF series worth criticizing. Babylon 5 was certainly one of the best SF series, but when you consider the number of excellent mainstream TV shows, such as Hill Street Blues (which Babylon 5, like so many ensemble shows, owes much of its structure to) it has to compete with, which were both stunningly well planned and executed, B5 pales in comparison.
Yes, B5 had a five year story arc, but when it had to be compressed into four years it suffered badly. They then cobbled together a lackluster fifth season. Better shows have developed arcs which could cope with being axed after the first year or running indefinitely. And Babylon 5's pace was glacial for much of its first three seasons.
These 20 minute shows could be good, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I doubt they started out pitching for a 20 minute direct to DVD project; so this is a TV series pitch that they couldn't sell.
Making a movie would be. Fortunately he has too much integrity to recast G'khar and the Doctor (both who passed away). Someone after money would not have blinked.
... I got the free mousepad and such from the failed attempt.
These short films come across as a writer's dream come true. How many writers could get a studio to basically pay for these types of films? If JMS is successful it might be a whole new market.
Now, the idea of a B5 MMORPG - uh, no thank you. I still want an official space combat simulator out of these people
Give me a turn based strategy game (MOO2 style) and a Flight Simulator and I will set for life, err, until the next big thing
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
No, the plans was for 5 seasons. They had to rush and give an end on season 4 exactly because WB decided to drop the axe. The storyline on season 5 was on the original planning.
morcego
He planned for five. It wasn't certain he was going to get the fifth one, so he tied up a lot of stuff in the fourth; when season was approved, there was a little less material left to go around.
Still, season 5 holds up better on re-watching than I'd orginally thought, with a few very good eps - Gaiman's "Day of the Dead", the Ellison-inspired "A View From the Gallery", and "The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father" for a look behind the scenes at the Psi Corps.
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You cannot wash away blood with blood
I might have partially agreed with you on some points.
For continuity B5 still wins. For logic B5 still wins.
Some of the things that happened in BSG did so because the writer needed them to happen, listening to the podcasts it was clear that they knew they could not back it up or seemed wrong - they had a story and damn if anything got in the way.
Yet the show was still enjoyable, up until the recent episodes which seem to be just a little to contrived.
BSG is experiencing the rabid fanboi surge all good shows have. It will be telling to see when some turn on their favorite show.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Actually, it's worse than that. It was originally planned to be a 5 year series, but then the stuidos started hinting that they were planning to cancel it after the fourth season because the ratings weren't so hot. IMHO it was amazing they had ratings at all since the timeslot was shifted every week and nobody ever bothered to tell TV Guide or anybody else when it was supposed to show. Anyway, JMS then rushed the end of the story in Season 4 and only afterward was told that he was actually going to have another season.
I read the internet for the articles.
.. that with Playboy, I can skip the articles.
Unless your point is that B5's only redeeming feature was 5 of horrible plastic-looking CGI.
In any case, there is a difference between "horrible" and "passable". B5 is clearly in the former camp. I don't watch Sci-Fi for the acting, but if it's that bad, it's just plainly unwatchable.
Ah, gotcha. So they compressed 5 into the end of 4, and then got 5 anyway.
Babylon 5, love it or hate it. After few episodes you are addicted anyways.
One episode doesnt give you any reason to be addicted, two gives you something, after three episodes you cant wait to see fourth, after fourth you find yourself thinking how PPG's really work, after fifth you have lost the count.
Think about a show that has 110 episodes + pilot, where each and every episode are somehow connected. And I dont mean only those episodes that comes in a row, for example 18,19 and 20 would be connected, but I also mean episodes 8 and 75, 53 and 106... 106 and 75... 75 to each and every episode... etc... That is why I love this show, it only gets better more you watch it.
After few episodes you can see the unavoidable faith of Babylon 5 and how the show is going to end, and that I think is the point of the story. You are given certain hints about the future, but you cant know whether it is true or not, or is it even possible.
It is your job to find out.
When the story continues, more hints are brought up, more moving parts inside machinery, more fire to the wheel. And most of all, you can see how the actions in the past had a consequence in the future (Or in the past...:).
In series finale, you will realise how wrong you were time to time, and how great journey this series was. For the last minutes you can only cry for two reasons, because it is over, or just because you want to.
Go get the DVD's, this show is definitely worth it.
Katsulas and Jurasik were IMO the best two regualrs on the show. The style was odd, but it was the nature of the characters, and once you got used to that.... it's like when you finally overcome the "odd" english in a shakespeare play and can concentrate on the beauty of it. Doyle could also act well, and many, MANY of the bit parts were wonderfully handled (Mr. Sebastian from "Comes the Inquisitor" comes to mind, as well as Dr. Franklin's father in "GROPOS"). Too damn bad Bruce couldn't act well, but even he had his moments, and I could ignore him while falling into the story.
That's a bit of revisionist history there.
Back when the pilot first aired, that line was not in there. After TNT picked up the show for season 5 and commisioned the movie "In the Beginning", JMS and company went off and did a special-edition jobby to the pilot. Mostly SFX tweaks, but that line was one that was added.
I can't wait for volume 15 of the B5 script books so that I can read the whole storyline if Sinclair had stayed. Yeah, I know. Geek.
He took a duck to the face at 250 knots.
You must not have seen the same episodes that I was watching
Perhaps not. Just part of the first season, and intermittant episodes after that. With the exception of the guy who played Garibaldi, everyone else had the screen presence of a 2x4. God, even Jeremy Iron's performance in "Dungeons and Dragons" was good in comparison.
so you're saying that Andreas Katsulas, Mira Furlan and Peter Jurasik couldn't act.
I have no idea who they are, but if they were in any episodes I saw, then no, they couldn't (unless you consider Keanu Reeves a master thespian.)
Actually, mostly on the last episode of season 4, which was a completely stupid ending episode. There were many cliff hangers still around.
The ending for season 5, now that was a good one. The best for any series I've ever seen, SciFi or not.
morcego
Yes, put the X-Files down and step away from the TV.
Seriously, while X-Files had some interesting episodes it also had terribly bad episodes like the one where Mulder is somehow absorbed by a VR system when the hologram projector "un-draws" him, and then Scully has to go all "Ridley" on the computer to save him. The worst thing is the episode was written by William Gibson (of "Neuromancer" fame), and that's exactly the episode he wanted to make, and that's just the tip of the iceberg of what is wrong with that episode, but I hope you see the problem.
I'm sure there are other terrible episodes that people could list, but the huge problem here is that they blantantly and repeatedly break the laws of physics without any justification. That's where they lost me, you can break the rules as long as you justify breaking the rules. When you break the rules and no one notices or cares that the impossible has just happened, well then you've jumped the shark and I can't take your series seriously any more.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
Things I've learned from reading the B5 scripts books:
Actually, it wasn't the studio saying "you're ratings suck, see ya." Of all the shows on the PTEN network, B5 was actually doing okay. It was PTEN itself that was in danger of going bust.
He took a duck to the face at 250 knots.
As for "Comes the Inquisitor," JMS acknowledged that he had a braino. His words:
That kind of commitment is what made B5 great. Not to mention the fact that JMS essentially blogged about the show long before that word could have been invented, since there wasn't even a WWW yet. He took fan feedback from the blog, and incorporated it into the show. That's a rarity, even today. Voting people off a TV show doesn't even come close to the level of interaction JMS had with the B5 fanbase.This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
I actually disagree and think they have some very good potential. IMHO, I think the mini's are designed to address a few of the lose threads and those that had to be tied to quickly when the fear of cancellation occurred.
So I think we may go "aha..." with a few of them.
Now they just need to release Season 2 of Jeremiah
Firefly...seconded
Shinyest gorram show ever!
Actually, even though it was the first series to use a lot of CGI, jms constantly bragged on the newsgroups about how he was bringing in costs under budget, and the budget was significantly less than the various Star Treks that were running during B5's run. I think B5 was running just under a million an episode, while Star Trek was well over, sometimes pushing two million (iirc). The whole five year arc was planned ahead of time, but there weren't scripts written for hardly any of it when he was pitching it to the studios (including Paramount, who spontaniously had the idea for Deep Space 9 a while after they heard the B5 pitch). It was meant for five years, but when the production company that B5 was running under folded part way through season 4, they had good reason to think they weren't getting a fifth season. Then, right at the end, they were picked up by TBS. Go figure. Still wish I knew the truth behind Claudia Christian leaving (too much he-said she-said now). Anyway, the real reason for this post is most anime series get planned out ahead of time also, and it shows. When a series will run for a set amount of time and is planned to end, there's so many more creative possibilities. I guess the big difference is pre-planned anime almost never runs as long as five years, it's usually 26 episodes, sometimes as many as 52. Some series, like Naruto, are long running and based on a current manga, so it seems pre-planned... until they run out of manga. The filler episodes tend to be quite painful.
The iTMS versions of B5 are probably only 50% of the original show.
The DVDs were artificially made "wide screen" by chopping off the top and bottom of each frame. You can tell on "Voice of the Resistance" test pattern or the Psi Corps ad on ISN with the frame that flashes "trust the corps". Those were full screen designs for tv and are now cut off.
I watched a sample of an episode on iTMS and it looks like it's the same vertical image as the DVDs but has now been chopped off on the left and right to fit the TV/iPod screen size, where letterboxing would look stupid.
So, I'm holding onto my VHS taped-off-the-air copies of B5 until they release the original-original series.
Start Running Better Polls
Here's a rogues gallery. Should jog the memory.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
Watching scifi for the acting is like reading slashdot for the comments.
©God
I thought it showed real balls. Good likable character eats it at the triumphant moment, Impressed me. Wouldn't have had the same impact if it had been the Doc. (my wife was wishing him dead the whole movie)
To the grandparent post Serenity was the name.
OSGGFG - Open Source Gamers Guide to Free Games
I remember when B5 was on the air and I mentioned the whole "story arc" thing to a Singaporean coworker. He looked at me like I was crazy: "So? Half the shows back home are like that." Since then I've watched several Chinese TV shows and I have to say he was right; not to diminish B5 in the least, but some of those shows have every bit as much foreshadowing and plot twistiness. (But usually, in the case of fantasy stories, much cheesier special effects than B5 at its worst.)
Yes, for its time B5 raised the bar on Sci-Fi the way Battlestar Galactica does now. The stories were well written, often interwoven with one another, and the characters were very complex. Even the villains are more than just "one dimensional" pure evil that needed to be destroyed (I beliece someone else also expressed this point).
What hurt shows like ST: Voyager, Enterprise and so many others is that they let the exec interfere with the creative process. Fox wanted more sex on Voyager so they brought in Seven-of-Nine, though Jeri Ryan proved that she was more than just a nice set of boobs and was actually a very good actress. Oh, and don't get me started with T'Pal on Enterprise. She was a good actress also but she was cast for the role because she was top heavy. I'm not saying sex in Sci-Fi isn't bad, but its when the focus of the show is to show off some babe in a skin tight body suit I'd rather watch the Playboy channel. I want my sci-fi shows to have depth, and I'm not alone in this. Sadly, too many media execs think they know what we want even then we tell them what we want. Case in point; the fans demanded for a series featuring Sulu as the captain of the Excellceor, but they gave everyone Enterprise because that is what the execs thought was what was best for the fans rather than listening to what the fans asked for. They're doing it again with the new Star Trek movie. Yes, they are going ahead with the Starfleet Academy things where a young Kirk meets Spock at the academy.
I also agress that Dr. Who was a great series. It is on record, with Guiness, as the longest running Sci-Fi TV series in history. Despite have an almost non-existant budget the producers of the series were still able to tell provocative stories which were sometimes totally unheard of in TV Sci-Fi. The new series does follow a similar formula though I'm disappointed a little by the fact that they dumped the serialization of the episodes.
Michael "TheZorch" Haney
thezorch@gmail.com
http://thezorch.googlepages.com/home
Babylon 5 is a big pile of shit!
spaced
What would be really interesting would be if they could use the footage of the main characters shot for the unreleased game Babylon 5: Into The Fire and work it into these prequels somehow. I've always wanted to see that footage - and, besides, it includes some unreleased and unseen video of Andreas Katsulas as G'Kar.
Seeing as how the new "series" (microseries?) is about the characters' past I don't think that's going to be a big deal.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
It was one of the first shows to be shot in 16:9 before there was HDTV!
Yes. A pity though that much of the CGI shots were rendered 4:3 and had to be cropped for widescreen. Or at least when it was shown on the Sci-Fi Channel in widescreen for the first time.
The series is preloaded in my 400-disc DVD changer but I haven't watched them yet.
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
I know the spinoffs didn't work out, but Crusade was killed by the network (I can't remember if it was WB or TNT) according to JMS and others that worked on the series. I happen to think that Crusade had big potential based on the popularity of the Techno-Mages among fans.
Ummm, Jon, aren't you supposed to be dead...? - Otter(3800)
Well, let me open by saying that Mira Furlan (or however you spell it) displayed no acting ability whatsoever on that show. In fact, what I took away from her character was mostly that she had a perpetually dry mouth.
However, Garibaldi's actor (forget his name) should not be held up as an example of acting. He came in to the studio and JMS said "that's garibaldi". The guy is just being himself. That doesn't mean he can't act, just that he didn't have to do so much of it for this show. Sure, he had to act out situations, but not so much a character.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
It was actually in the original script, but somehow wound up on the cutting room floor. Joe's response was something like "Wha? It wasn't in the cut that first aired? *tape squiggly noises* Holy crap, it wasn't."
And damn, I want to read those books, but I so can't justify the money to buy 'em all.
I think of this B5 direct to DVD as another innovation by JMS. The 5 season story arc was pretty innovative esp. as all other TV at the time (and still) was so episodic. I see LOST and the 4400 suffering without a defined end. Similarly, BSG may become problematic as plot lines drag and get extended for profit rather than story-telling. And with all the different media playback, what does it matter if it's on TV at such and such a time? I get a much better experience watching the shows uninterrupted, all at once (or at least on my own time schedule). I can see content-on-demand like this being much more popular and it bypasses TV execs (phooey on FOX) so how can that be bad? If only Firefly can be brought back like this ...
Not true. The reason the show used so much CGI was that the budget didn't stretch to the number of model shots that they wanted to do. The special effects for the pilot were rendered on a home network of Amigas running Lightwave 3D. The rest of the series was rendered using 12 Pentia and 5 Alphas.
These days, open source tools are as easy to use, and commodity CPUs are powerful enough that the only real cost of producing similar (or better) quality CGI would be the artists time.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
It's still amazing IMHO. I can't have been the only person who scoured his local paper each week to find what timeslot B5 was in, only to discover that the paper was wrong more often than it was right, and even then it was only listed at all 1 week in 3. A couple of times I only caught it by accident, but it was almost always gone from any slot within a week or two.
It also didn't help that my local affiliate liked to show the episodes out of order.
I read the internet for the articles.
That's because the finale of season 5 is the orginal finale of season 4. When they were renewed at the last minute they threw together the season 4 finale and moved "Sleeping in light", out to the 5th season.
ok...though I love
Stargate (any version), Firefly, and Enterprise or even the new Dr. Who
and BSG and B5....
I find it hard to judge BSG until it is over. It may go the way of Farscape which I love too. I love the SciFi channel, but I fear them messing with successful shows. B5, Firefly, Enterprise are done and can be judged....SG or SGA are still running like BSG and it is up in the air where they will land after all is said and done...
Hubris.....
"Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
My affiliate showed it on Tuesday nights at 11:00 PM.
Granted, I could (and did) record it, but I HAD to watch it "live." That made for some grumpy ducks the following day, especially after eps like "Severed Dreams" or "Zha'dum."
He took a duck to the face at 250 knots.
I really can't justify the $ either, but I really had to buy them. And ordering them within the first few weeks of publishing gets me $10 off a book, so it'll only be $420 (+tax/shipping) instead of $560.
Hey, it's my flimsy rationale and I'm sticking with it.
They've been good too. A few edited-out scenes that helped explain things, some good behind-the-scenes stories, and the scoop on Lyta's Lingerie. I can't wait to see how/if Joe addresses the whole Claudia mess.
He took a duck to the face at 250 knots.
That made for some grumpy ducks the following day
Did the grumpy ducks say "meow"?
RelevantElephants: A Somatic WebComic...
- 5 year story arc
- Associated with the point above, foreshadowing happens years in advance
- Ships appear to follow newtonian mechanics in regular space
- Humans at "reasonable" technological level (none of this "aging / unaging people with the transporter" shit. I don't care how altruistic the Federation is supposed to be. If it's possible to reverse aging with the transporter, someone would exploit it.)
- Not all major races magically at the same level of technological development
- Babylon 5 was never turned into Enterprise.
Babylon 5 gets my vote, hands down."Live as if you'll die tomorrow." Ridiculous. You could die later today.
BSG is great but without B5 there would be no new BSG. B5 provide there is life for Sci-Fi other than trek and it can be better.
Actually, I am not saying nothing, but JMS's and Bryce Zabel's idea for new Trek series sounds strangly familiar, down to examples.... (mind you this was done in 2004)
-Em
RelevantElephants: A Somatic WebComic...
Firefly got a movie that was marginally promoted, mostly to the core audience, and still opened as the #2 movie in the USA for the weekend of 10/02/05. The studio promptly pulled all advertising for it the second week, started cutting theaters showing it the third week, and spent weeks 4 through 7 cutting the number of theaters showing the movie by half, and then pulled it altogether.
The movie didn't fail, the studio killed it.
Name me one science fiction show that had better actors. ST:TNG came close and Avery Brooks was pretty good in DS9, but one of the reasons B5 was successful in my eye was that the acting was actually decent, and in many cases genuinely impressive. Perhaps even more important was that the cast meshed well. Although I personally liked Jerry Doyle's work in the series, opinions I've read elsewhere usually consider him one of the weaker actors.
Sorry, but I've moved on to Battlestar Galactica.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
At its heart, it's a military drama with sci-fi trappings.
Considering that the Star Trek shows had a larger budget for special effects, than most of the other shows you mentioned had in total budget (combined) - I find it hard to believe that Star Trek's graphics wasn't far better in comparison. The other shows had to create new ways to get the effects done with only a fraction of the money - I am rather impressed by what they were able to do. Plus, B5 totally killed Star Trek in the costume department, and it set the bar high enough there that other shows try to match it still.
Studios do not control how many screens it shows on. Face it - the movie sucked. Never saw Firefly, am a big BSG fan. Serenety blew. Hard.
Of course, if every show followed that philosophy, we wouldn't have the really good CGI effects we have today.
As for Babylon 5 specifically, CGI was one of the compromises made to get the show on the air. (JMS was unwilling to compromise much on story -- and the show benefited from that -- so other things had to give.) One of the reasons there were so few ambitious space-based sci-fi shows in the early 1990s was the high budget needed to do special effects. The Star Trek shows had a built-in audience, so Paramount was willing to spend more on them than most studios were willing to spend on a series. Computer graphics enabled B5 to do ambitious effects while still coming in at a budget that networks were willing to spend on a no-name sci-fi show.
Not to mention the fact that JMS essentially blogged about the show long before that word could have been invented, since there wasn't even a WWW yet.
Babylon 5 ran from 1993 to 1998. WWW was invented in 1990. As far as the word "blog" goes, it seems to be a mushpot of everything that's listed with entries in reverse chronological order, from news to diaries to "what's new" from groups and organizations. Hell, some of the BBS I remember had a function you could call a blog, only it didn't use WWW. Many people used their homepage as a blog, except they called it a homepage. So the activity already existed - we just sooner or later decided to make an own word for it.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Name me one science fiction show that had better actors.
My god, you've got to be kidding. I think it would be easier to name science fiction shows that had worse acting. But if you insist, here is a *very* short list of shows with better acting than B5:
Firefly. Battlestar Galactica (both series.) Doctor Who. Star Trek (pick one. Even TOS - WFS included - had better acting than B5.) Space: Above and Beyond. Andromeda. Stargate SG1. Space 1999. X-Files (including David "2x4" Duchovny's brick impersonation.) Tomorrow People. Dark Angel. SeaQuest. Psi-Factor. Red Dwarf. Buck Rogers (yes - *that* Buck Rogers.)
The list is almost endless.
one of the reasons B5 was successful in my eye was that the acting was actually decent
Don't tell me, let me guess: you also believe that Keanu should have won an Oscar for his role in the Matrix movies, right?
The acting was horrible. It was just painful to watch. With the afforementioned exception, the actors were incapable of expressing emotion. When I watched (to see if it had gotten any better) all I could think was "if someone wanted to sabotage the station, they just needed to release some termites. Virtually the entire cast would be gone in a few hours - and Garibaldi wouldn't be able to run the station by himself."
the cast meshed well
So did the lumber I used to build my deck. Doesn't mean I think it can act.
I rather be free in hell than a slave in heaven.
Me, I'm a big Firefly fan. Loved the movie. And for me, BSG is a huge yawn (although the graphics are nice) -- the stories just don't go anywhere.
To each his own.
The 5 in Babylon 5 isn't an accident...
You guys just don't get it. BSG is good because of the story, the plot, and the gritty realism, but most importantly, it is good because the of the direction and the acting ability of the actors. The actors are good, but the director must be doing a simply amazing job of getting the most out of them. I rarely find myself popping out of mode saying "wow, that was poorly acted". I believe when someone has strong emotional scenes. I feel their pain and suffering, therefore I feel for the characters. I simply can't wait to find out what happens when season 3 starts.
If all you are looking for is a group of characters who will interact with each other, show after show after show, for some undetermined amount of time, then you are correct -- B5 was not optimally set up for that. But then, B5 was not fundamentally a story about a group of characters; it was a story about a particular event (the war between the First Ones and the younger races).
As such, it doesn't necessarily need to follow all the same characters around all the time, or look at the event in the same place all the time, but it _does_ need to advance the plot at a specific rate in order to cover all the interesting items leading up to the event. It was an _extremely_ ambitious design to plot out five years worth of episodes to cover the event, and it suffered because of that. Even so, I personally still rank it above shows like Hill Street Blues.
I can't think of any American shows before or after that have worked this way. You can say that you see "arcs" in modern series, but the writers still just make it up as they go -- the "arc" just means that you build up to some arbitrary cliffhanger at the end of each season, and if you get renewed, you make up some deus ex machina to get out of it at the beginning of the next season, and work towards your next arbitrary cliffhanger.
That's the main difference of B5. The seasons weren't just a collection of arbitrary cliffhangers, they were chapters of a continuing story, leading up to a specific climax.
When I saw the first couple of episodes of B5, I almost wrote it off; the acting was so piss poor. The fact that it *was* a serial, that it existed within the trajectory of a much larger (and sometimes subtly addressed) plot, was really hooked me. Having characters and plots develop/evolve over time like that was fantastic. I look forward to further character development (though I am fearful of the short format and the tendancy to try and wrap things up in neat packages by the end) BTW.. a couple of interesting trivia points I came across over the past couple of years. Billy Mumy (also of lost in space fame) also did a stint as a Jazz composer. He wrote a "famous" song that was featured on Dr Demento (yllor yllop hsif sdaeh) Also... my brother in law loaned me a story about a psi cop... written by one "Alfred Bester". I'm sure there are many sci-fi heads who have heard of this guy.. apparently he had some influence on the field... I had not heard of him before reading this book a year ago. It seems Ellison (creative consultant to JMS) was a big fan of Bester's to the point where he called a hospital Bester was dying and and pretended to be a reporter to make sure the hospital took good care of him. ok... off to lunch.
-Eric
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
"I'm kind of pissed at the new Doctor Who. Not having any Daleks"
Are you high? there is probably more dalek plotlines than non dalek plotlines in the whole of the new seasons. The season finale two-parter as an example.. Anyways, my big problem with the new doctor who comparing it to the old is that they have no story arcs at all! Every episode is, for the most part, a self contained story. The old ones, as im sure you are aware, had like 4 or 6 episodes per story. The doctor would always get into a cliffhanger situation at the end of each episode and then it would be resolved in the first 5 minutes of the next show.
And they really need to stop making episodes where the character is "possessed" by an alien being. I think the episodes that didnt involve daleks all had some form of possession going on. Thats really lame and i sincerely hope that they have more otherworldly adventures that do not involve a) london and b) possesion. Another key thing that i think they are doing wrong is not emphasizing the unstableness of the tardis. The current doctor and elikson as well, seem to be more in control of their tardis than any before. I thought the whole idea was that the machine picked the targets and the doctor was just sort of along for the ride.
oh and lastly, they need to go back to the 1960s black and white openning sequence. That effect was downright scary when i was a kid and i knew alot of other people who wouldnt even watch the show - even into adulthood - because of that sequence. You will *never* achieve a similar reaction with CG. Its probably the best opening sequence of anything ever and watching it on lsd gives you such a crazy rush. Still chills the spine everytime i see it.
I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
Very original, a year after BSG already did it. I would hope JMS would at least have the decency not to try and pretend he and Zabel just came up with the idea out of the blue.
Erm, I am pretty sure this was before BSG show came out and no, they never claimed they "came up with the idea out of the blue" but rather adapted a common comic book aproach to a TV show (if you read the pitch, it actually explains this in detail)
RelevantElephants: A Somatic WebComic...
-Eric
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
It is said that Andreas Katsulas died of lung cancer. His friends often described him as a person who smoked like a chimney.
Hear, hear.
The only reason to watch was a decent story till the Shadows got defeated, most of S04 was a disappointment and after seeing 3 eps. of S05 I finaly gave up on it, the bad acting finaly out weighed the story (not that I can remember what S05 was about).
One of B5's strenghts and weaknesses is that Straczynski wrote most
of the episodes. That allowed more continuity and long arcs.
However that can hamper the series too. With multiple writes, some
may be stronger in dialog or humor, or just inject fresh views on things.
No. The best analogy would be "watching scifi for the acting is like using slashdot for the social contact.".
©God
Since a lot of this thread deals with BSG raising the bar and how it outclasses B5 I'd like to weigh in on the issue.
BSG is good. I like it. My TiVo likes it too. It has raised the bar. (Though I think the script is terrible and discontinous and the acting isn't very good. But overall concept and production are excellent and there isn't always a status quo.
Take for example the season finale... "And a year later...". BAH! lazy writers!.
But B5, now talk about raising the bar. It had a comprehensive five year plot (sure, a few episodes were sidetracks/deadends), No status quos, way deeper characters than BSG has, fantastic CGI with realistic physics and all the actors were good if not outstanding.
When people are talking about BSG raising the bar you have to realize that it aired ten years after B5 (almost 10% of the time film has been around and 25% of the time computers have been common.) Does BSG have better CGI? Better production? sure. But B5 essentially did all of what BSG does, did it ten years earlier and did it before anyone else thought of it; at least all in one show.
While BSG may be an evolution in Sci-Fi, B5 was a revolution.
I will never live for sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
You're right, the first season's acting does suck. Most people who get in to the series probably kept watching in spite of that (I know I did).
It really does get much, much better. So do the special effects, for that matter, though they never get great--it was the early days of CG animation, after all.
Someone doing more than just MENTIONING the Telepath War???
I want to see more Pat Tallman kicking ass...
E8B8B
http://www.tomsmithonline.com/freestuff/viddio/b5- 5y.mpg
http://www.tomsmithonline.com/freestuff/viddio/b5- 5y.avi
"Someone's gotta have some damn perspective around here!" -- Commander Susan Ivonova, Babylon 5
Of the newly announced JMS projects, I'm more excited about the potential Rising Stars TV series based on the excellent comic book series JMS wrote. This project will be developed by Sam Raimi's company.
In terms of emotional resonance, Season 27 of Dr. Who is undoubtedly the best
of the lot in 2005-2006. I've been mulling over why that is.
One aspect I can see is that the Doctor and Companion and friends are mostly
characters we can believe in - people who might be living down the block
(well, except for the Doctor). It's easy to empathsize with them
in spite of the weird circumstances they may be in. The new stories
also often delve into the subtle and human effects that the Doctor has caused among
his associates and in the universe. THAT has also made the series more human.
BSG and B5 characters are situated more in an operatic setting where
everything is grander and more intense. But that also puts an emotional
distance between the character and oneself.
Sadly, Stargate now is just plodding along without Anderson. It looks like a
retirement home for Scifi Channel series actors.
For the grand daddy for gritty and depressing SciFi, one must seek out Blake's 7.
It is the only tv series where the ending is truely unpredictable and shocking.
Still very good in my book.
Season 1 is unanimously considered far and away the worst season. Season 1 of ST:TNG was a steaming pile too, IIRC.
Go watch seasons 3 and 4 of B5 if you want a real taste of the show. s2 is excellent as well. s5 feels like a padded epilogue, because they resolved everything major in s4, 'cuz they thought s5 wasn't going to happen.
Where exactly did the stories in Firefly "go", compared to B5? I am sincerely curious about your opinion here.
The story's told. It might be time to let it lie.
Taking advantage of the fan base really helps with this. The Lurkers Guide to B5 is quite amazing in the amount of notes for each episode. When I bought the series on DVD, I watched each episode in conjunction with the episode guide (reading the what-to-watch-for bits beforehand, and JMS's catalogued usenet comments about the episode afterwards), and it added a lot to the understanding appreciation, and general enjoyment of the series.
There are quite a few shows toady that've copied the B5 pattern, or built on it in some cases. I have to admit that it's made more of an impression on me than any other SF show, however, just because of how much it revolutionised what could be done for writing and production of TV series' at the time.
Yeah... so did making a bunch of 185-mile round trips (roughly 44 of 'em) to tape it in my car because no local station carried B5 during seasons 3 and 4. But the show was worth that effort... JMS et al were busting their asses; the least I could do was honor that by making a small in-kind contribution :-)
On the plus side, my old Sony VCR survived all the square waves from my ancient inverter, and there wasn't much traffic on US74 heading from Shelby (NC) back toward Asheville in the early AM...
Oh, and during those late-night journeys I also discovered this.
How in the hell does a show like this go FIVE SEASONS w/spinoffs and movies and NO GODDAMN GAME?!
Shit! Mary-Kate and Ashley get a game. My Little Pony has a game. There's no end of Star Trek/Wars games, but no real Bab 5 game. It beggars the imagination...
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
Wow. That's dedication. You win.
He took a duck to the face at 250 knots.
- Mal & Zoe survived a terrible losing war, they've got a lot of history...
- Shepherd Book was most certainly _not_ a Shepherd at some point in the past.
:)
- The Alliance has taken over the collected human worlds, and is in the process of consolidating its new holdings (via a significant propaganda campaign)
- And, of course, the main arc of the first season -- River Tam and her brother Simon on the run from the Alliance. The season got cut off before the arc really got far underway; the movie probably finished the arc as far as it would have gone in the first season
I'm afraid that we'll never have another attempt at a show like B5; but shows like Firefly do have some depth, and tell stories that take more than just one hour to present.Those actors portrayed G'Kar, Ambassador Delenn and Londo Mollari respectively. I'll let "The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5" speak about them. Some of the entries may be a bit dated, but there's always IMDB.
http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/making/cast.html#fu
Only compared to Sylvester Stallone...well, maybe not even then
Hi there! Thanks for your reply.
:)
/. in its infinite wisdom does not allow this, and I had to leave work.
A few things...
- I'm a Whedon fan. You're preaching to the converted about Firefly, I thought it and Serenity were awesome.
- I was actually replying to your comment about finding BSG boring, but typed B5 by accident. I tried to post a correction immediately after, but
So... sorry about that, but what I was really interested in is why you find BSG so boring compared to Firefly? It has tons of backstory (to subvert your first Firefly point, "Adama and Tighe survived a terrible war and have a lot of history"), it most certainly has stories that take longer than a single episode to tell, the setting (mankind reduced to a fleet of ships) is compelling, and it deals grippingly with contemporary issues, ie, is it moral to torture Cylons-as-terrorists? Plus, a hot underwear model to stare at (who can actually ACT!) and the occasional (but not overused) gigantic space battle. Where's the bore?
You really should go back and watch more than the first season. In many series (TNG leaps to mind, though I'm not going to put that up as an example of 'good' acting) you see the first season has much worse acting than later seasons. It often takes actors a while to 'find' their character and really get into the role. That's even more true in the case of B5, because there was so much foreshadowing written into the script. The actors were required to stick to the script word-for-word with no ad-libing (sp?). That often makes it harder for the actors to put more of themselves into the role and leads to more wooden acting. After they've lived with the characters for a while, they can get much more into it while still sticking strictly to the script. The acting of most of the characters got much much better in later seasons compared to the first.
Oh, sorry, I should have figured that you meant BSG, I guess that was what I originally posted about. :)
I guess, I just don't see the point. I think "Mankind is reduced to a fleet of ships" is interesting to think about for a minute or two, but beyond that it's just depressing. So almost everyone is dead -- is there a compelling reason to watch the survivors try to survive? Yeah, you can portray contemporary issues in the context of the survivors, but you can portray contemporary issues in any series (there's no need to resort to science fiction for that).
I guess I'm also not really happy with the way the Cylons are portrayed, although that's probably more my fault than theirs; I guess I shouldn't really expect the writers to know much about computer science. They miss many of the interesting conflicts in machine sentience (although maybe they're only interesting to me). What gets my goat is that they've set up a perfect opportunity to question human identity ala Philip K. Dick or Stanislaw Lem, but they just turn it into a glorified us-vs-them slugfest.
So it's a drama based in space, but it just doesn't feel like science fiction to me. The writers aren't really giving us new concepts to ponder, or puzzles about how to use a variety of new technologies to solve a problem. We're just watching some characters live out their lives. It just doesn't grab me...
It seems like about half this thread is arguing about which SF TV series is best. Why? Can't you like different shows simultaneously? Yes, maybe you can only spend your money on a limited number -- but then, why do you have to try to convince everyone else to spend their money a certain way? Why can't we all just relax and say "We're all cool and we all like SF TV"? Why don't we all talk about why all these shows are cool instead of instantly starting to compare dicks?
And do not forget Mr. Kitty who died during the Crusade spin-off!
YAY!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't wait! *sigh* I'm still such a groupie after all these years. Maybe we can get SciFi to run them in a block. Right.
Sorry man... the Internet pooped on me.
You just killed me.... I did NOT know that he passed away!!!!! I was very much similarly saddened when I found out that Tim Choate (Zatras) passed away in 2004. I'd been a fan of Richard Biggs since I was a girl... when he appeared as *gasp* Dr. Marcus Hunter on Days of our Lives. *hurl*
I had heard that Jason Carter - Marcus Cole - had passed away as well, but I may have been confusing him with Trevor Goddard from JAG... dunno why.
Sorry man... the Internet pooped on me.
I guess this is where we will have to agree to disagree. Some of the concepts they have explored which I find fascinating are:
All I can say about this one is thank heavens! I for one am sick to death of all the technobabble solutions prevalent in certain other sci-fi franchies.
I can certainly understand your opinions about BSG and I know I won't change them, but what I still don't get is why you think Firefly succeeds where BSG fails? All of your complaints about BSG would seem to apply to Firefly. It's a Western in space, "there's no need to resort to science fiction" for the stories and characters presented. There are no real sci-fi concepts presented, just Whedon's standard "big bad of the episode/season" formula and yet another troubled girl who kicks ass. They don't present puzzles to be solved with technology. Frankly, it's portrayal of space is weak at best, like randomly "running into people" in deep space as easily as you would say, sailing the seas. ("It's getting awfully crowded in my sky"? Gimme a break.. and don't even get me started on the absurdity of the Reaver planetary blockade in the movie)
About the only two quasi-futuristic concepts in Firefly are the idea that Asian culture would be more predominant, including in common language (yet we see no Asians in the show??????), and that prostitution is accepted and even a position of status.
Firefly is a good show, with great characters and writing, but I just can't see it as superior "sci-fi" to BSG. Anyway thanks for the discussion!
"You can't take the sky from me..."
I enjoyed the cast of ST:TNG, myself. It was one of the greats!
I personally never got to see much of Babylon5, due to an extended period of dwelling with sci-fi haters and only one (cableless) TV. I'm glad to know that it is now available on DVD, so I can finally mature into the full-blown nerd I was destined to be!
I intend to watch it with an ice-cold drink resting on this FREE Circuit Board Coaster:
http://www.rbdpcb.com/contact/coaster1.html . I can't wait for it to arrive!
If it keeps my drinks from sweating onto my keyboard, it'll be this nerd's best friend!
If all you are looking for is a group of characters who will interact with each other, show after show after show, for some undetermined amount of time, then you are correct... That's the main difference of B5. The seasons weren't just a collection of arbitrary cliffhangers, they were chapters of a continuing story, leading up to a specific climax.
I think you're thinking of Dallas not Hill Street Blues.
B5 was not fundamentally a story about a group of characters; it was a story about a particular event (the war between the First Ones and the younger races).
The original arc was supposed to end where season 4 ended, so in fact the particular event you mention (or at least its resolution and climax) was originally going to be left out (or maybe be put in a movie). The event you talk about was tacked on, rather badly, to provide a reason for season 5, the original seasons 4 and 5 having been compressed into season 4. There are plenty of shows that have covered similar ground, some well (Holocaust, Roots) and other not so well (North and South, Wings of War). In general, they have covered far more complex and interesting material at a far less turgid pace and without prosthetic foreheads.
Science Fiction and Fantasy is all too often about events of epic scope (wars at the end of time, the liberation of a galaxy, a gathering of eternal heroes pitted against the Ultimate Evil, whatever). Usually this epic sweep is at the cost of any real understanding of human (let alone alien) nature. This kind of grandiosity is not what makes literature, movies, or television shows great. It's what makes them pathetic.
Here's a hint -- when the bad guys are Just Evil with no discernable motive, your story sucks. Babylon 5 wasn't quite that bad, but it was close.