Rethinking the Thinkpad

Octiaviane writes to tell us that XYZComputing has a review of Lenovo's Thinkpad X60 with a look at not only the current specs but the evolution of the Thinkpad line. From the article: "One constant which has remained throughout the evolution of the notebook computer is the Thinkpad. Processors and operating systems have changed, designs have been updated, and ownership has changed hands, but the Thinkpad remains. This product has never stopped being a top choice for demanding consumers and corporate buyers, whether they are looking for size, power, or features."

Comments

IBM Ugly

[Realistic_Dragon]

Thankfully they don't seem to have changed the apparance yet. IBM Ugly doesn't get many plaudits, but it definatly says "this is a laptop with which I could beat you to death for your stupidity and using your rubbish little Acer as a shield isn't going to help you one bit".

Re:IBM Ugly

[LiquidCoooled]

Your thinkpad cannot hurt me, my wings are like a shield of IBM Model M keyboards.

Re:IBM Ugly

[masklinn]

They still have it, and that model only has that horrible little thing (some other models also have a regular trackpad)

Re:IBM Ugly

[Threni]

> The only thing I can think of when I hear 'thinkpad' is the horrible nipple mouse they used to all
> have. Want to scroll from one side of the screen to the other? Best set aside 5 minutes!

Or simply push the nipple harder - works for me.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Anonymous Coward]

You need to adjust the mouse acceleration accordingly. After you get used to it, you can get from one side of the screen to another as fast as from a GUI button to an adjacent button - both in a split second. A human finger is adaptable, and even though both are accomplished by only a few millimeters of movement, after a while the trackpoint is a remarkably accurate control method. Whoever was it that said that the nipple is the only intuitive interface...

The only real issue with the trackpoint in my experience is that it takes half an hour for a new user to get anything done with it, and a few days for the new user to become proficient. But I still think it's a great device, even though I've learned to like the trackpad as well. My current system has both, and I use either, depending on mood, and where my fingers happen to be.

Re:IBM Ugly

[bubkus_jones]

I must be the only one here who prefers the "nipple" to a trackpad. I tend to have more control with it than the trackpad, and it's quicker to get to than a trackpad, as it's in the middle of the keyboard. I barely have to shift my hand to be able to control it.

Of course, half the time I use a USB mouse, but still. I'm not a fan of the trackpad style control.

Re:IBM Ugly

[hey!]

Or simply push the nipple harder - works for me.

That's correct. The thing that people who don't like the TrackPoint often don't realize is that it's force sensitive. A few hours of usage and it's way more convenient than a mouse.

The Thinkpads also come with a trackpad, which I don't use. The best pointing device I ever used was a trackpad on the old Apple Mac 540c (Blackbird). The first time I got a PC laptop with a trackpad I was amazed how a different implementation of the same idea could work so much poorly. It's amazing to refelect on the fact that that old 540c had only 4MB of RAM and a 33MHz processor, but with the exception of compiling and running a modern web broswer, it did everything I needed to do almost as well as my current laptop, a Thinkpad T42 with half a gig of memory and a processor running 30x faster.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Zarhan]

The Z60 series was, for a short while, available with silver cover instead of IBM black as well. Too bad I only good get the black Z60m (they ran out of the metal-cover versions just as I got the go-ahead from my boss to place an order for a new laptop...)

Re:IBM Ugly

[rah1420]

Boy, you don't know how to use it, do you? I'll bet you scrape your finger across it like a trackpad and think that it's gonna make the mouse pointer move.

Think of it like a joystick without the handle and you'll do much better. Five minutes, huh?

Re:IBM Ugly

[TeknoHog]

I must be the only one here who prefers the "nipple" to a trackpad.

No, you're not the only one :)

I remember when some laptops came with trackballs, or with optional trackball add-ons. From today's perspective it's clear that you can't fit a trackball into a decently thin laptop. There were probably also cost and durability issues that led first to trackpoints (nipples) and then to trackpads. For example in my previous laptop, a Toshiba Satellite, I had to replace the rubber bit in the trackpoint every two years or so. The current IBM version with a larger, flatter nipple seems much better in this respect.

Unfortunately, the pointer is not the only deciding factor in buying laptops, so I've ended up with a trackpad in my current machine. I believe it's the most durable of the technologies with no moving parts, but it's far from practical IMHO. For example it's distracted by the palms of my hands while typing. Fortunately it's easy to disable and enable on demand (rmmod|modprobe psmouse :).

Re:IBM Ugly

[rah1420]

/me raises my hand

Our corporate IT staff refreshed us with a T42, but the software image didn't have the trackpoint wizard or whatever it's called. A few phone calls and I was able to disable the bloody thing - if you're a power typer, you will find yourself quickly losing focus from your working window as the heel of your hand exerts force on the trackpad and emulates a double-click.

My [personal] T23 doesn't have it, and they can have it when they pry my cold dead fingers from around it (well, as soon as I replace the fluorescent lamp.) It has the dreaded red tint on the screen and someday I will be annoyed enough to get it fixed, but I love it.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Plutonite]

rmmod is a nasty way to do things. Please use modprobe -r.

Thank you

Re:IBM Ugly

[mpbrede]

Add me as a fan of the Trackpoint. I can't live without it. If I ever have to use a keyboard other than my Thinkpad's, I'll have to get those IBM ones that have a trackpoint in it. I don't need to move the base of my hands from their typing position to scroll the mouse or to click a button. With the scrollpoint, page scrolling is effortless. Vive le trackpoint!

Re:IBM Ugly

[adam1101]

No kidding: ThinkPad anno 1992.
ThinkPad anno 1997.
ThinkPad anno 2002.
ThinkPad anno 2006.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Anonymous Coward]

Those "rubbish little Acers" are certainly making a name for themselves. Take a look at the latest Notebook sales figures and you may notice that Acer is indeed number 1 in most European countries as well as making strong headway in the US. Incidently also reached number 1 in Australia during Q2...
Feature-wise, they have always been a leader. I was quite surprised with the recent Thinkpad claims of being a market leader in integrated security with the built-in fingerprint scanner. An Acer notebook I had 4 years ago already had a built-in fingerprint scanner!
Nowadays all new models come standard with built-in webcam.
I am not trying to trash the Thinkpad but they certainly don't make 'em like they used to...

Re:IBM Ugly

[masklinn]

if you're a power typer, you will find yourself quickly losing focus from your working window as the heel of your hand exerts force on the trackpad and emulates a double-click.

If you're a power typer with a trackpad, you've desactivated that bloody hellish feature.

That's the first thing I do everytime I start using a new laptop.

I have buttons, they're more than enough, and they never do something I didn't ask for.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Anonymous Coward]

Shouldn't that last one say 'Lenovo' not 'IBM'? Lenovo bought Thinkpad last year.

Re:IBM Ugly

[fuego451]

Me-Reconsiders 1/4" Titanium diamond-plate case mod with frikkin' lasers for 'rubbish little Acer'.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Profane MuthaFucka]

Oh, it's a NIPPLE. I guess I better quit sniffing my keyboard then.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Anonymous Coward]

I just bought one two weeks ago and it arrive last week with the "IBM ThinkPad" (not "Lenovo Thinkpad") logo.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Duds]

No I'm with you, I hate trackpoints, they're not accurate, they're not quick, unless you turn it off they randomly click the mouse for you if your finger is in the same postcode.

The nipple is a perfect control means, it's accurate, it's quick and you don't accidentally click.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Anonymous Coward]

the "nub" or "nipple" is INFINITELY better than the pad or trackball, which are both very inefficient and require actual motion, rather than just a little force.

Re:IBM Ugly

[thrillseeker]

Unfortunately, the pointer is not the only deciding factor in buying laptops, so I've ended up with a trackpad in my current machine.

It's the deciding factor for some of us - not a touchpad fan - I don't want it anywhere on my system. Such a difficult attitude on my part prevents me from buying many otherwise great systems, as they don't offer 'em without the touchpad.

Re:IBM Ugly

[thrillseeker]

If you're a power typer with a trackpad, you've desactivated that bloody hellish feature.

I cna't even stand the feel of the damn thing.

Re:IBM Ugly

[burner]

You may prefer to use QSynaptics to module tweaking: http://qsynaptics.sourceforge.net/ss.html

And the nipple is way better. My T30 has both, and I just disable the touchpad.

Re:IBM Ugly

[burner]

Agreed. I have in the past played warcraft3 successfully with my nipple. For such a mouse intensive app, it's hard to imagine anyone playing it with a touchpad, though I imagine it's possible.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Ethan Allison]

Thinkpads have good touchpads too.

Re:IBM Ugly

[linvir]

Trackpads are too prone to sometimes losing their centre and dragging the cursor slowly in some random direction when you let go. Touchpads are too prone to randomly going crazy and becoming completely useless for minutes at a time.

My next computer will be a desktop.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Anonymous Coward]

They still have it, and that model only has that horrible little thing (some other models also have a regular trackpad)

"Nipple" or "Clit" if you prefer.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Skevin]

> ...I hate trackpoints
> The nipple is a perfect control means

Um... trackpoint = nipple. Did you mean Trackpad?

Re:IBM Ugly

[Gadget_Guy]

I used to be a big fan of the trackpad, and I hated it when we purchased a bunch of Thinkpads that only had a clitoris (which I think more accurately describes how you use it).

But after using it a while, I was amazed at how inefficient it was when I tried the trackpad again. I like being able to move the mouse around all day without having to move my hand or finger at all. All you have to do is just twiddle the clit. It just seems like second nature now.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Anonymous Coward]

Among the people I know, it is referred as "The Clit". It's a rather fit description too since it's somewhat hidden and doesn't protrude like a nipple.

Re:IBM Ugly

[cpugeniusmv]

But not too hard...

Mine came clean off one day.

Re:IBM Ugly

[drsmithy]

I must be the only one here who prefers the "nipple" to a trackpad. I tend to have more control with it than the trackpad, and it's quicker to get to than a trackpad, as it's in the middle of the keyboard. I barely have to shift my hand to be able to control it.

I hate them both pretty much equally.

Bring back the trackball !

Re:IBM Ugly

[Anonymous Coward]

I must be the only one here who prefers the "nipple" to a trackpad.

I'll take the "nipple" over the trackpad, too. I've given trackpads a fair shake, and I can't understand why anybody would prefer one to the nipple. In most cases, I even prefer the nipple to a full-size mouse.

Re:IBM Ugly

[mad.frog]

I agree, but only to a point... I find a trackpad almost unusable (which pretty much eliminates most laptops, including Apple, right there)... but the nipple-controller, while sorta-usable, still gives me only a fraction of the control I have with a mouse. If I have to do any nontrivial work on my laptop, I have to bring a mouse to plug in... full stop.

Oh, for someone to invent a pointer-controller for a laptop that TRULY rivals a mouse for speed and control...

Re:IBM Ugly

[david.heyman]

No, don't think of it like a joystick. You need to think of it like a clitoris. A joystick you wrap your hole hand around. I nipple gets rolled around between the thumb and forefinger. This is definitely more like a clitoris than anything else.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, I won't buy a laptop unless it has one.

I've noticed that the majority of people I've run into who hate the trackpoint are hunt and peckers, as opposed to touch typists. I think this has a bearing on how advantageous people see the device. If you can touch type, the trackpoint is a huge boon when you get the hang of it in terms of speed of use. If you can't, it really isn't much different in terms of speed of use than a trackpad.

Re:IBM Ugly

[fm6]

That explains why they still have that stupid IBM-in-RGB logo, even though the product is no longer made by IBM.

My department recently bought an Acer 64-bit "Ferrari" for our collective use. God, what nightmare!

Re:IBM Ugly

[Duds]

I did.

I'll let myself out.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Korin43]

It's nice for small movements, but it's a pain in the ass for large movements.

Re:IBM Ugly

[aj50]

I always found the the trackball was so small that either I couldn't control the mouse accurately enough to click the X or was spinning it like a bad bar-football player to move across the screen at any reasonable speed.

Nipples all the way

Re:IBM Ugly

[Chris Daniel]

I must be the only one here who prefers the "nipple"

Doesn't everyone prefer nipples?

Re:IBM Ugly

[xenocide2]

Maybe we should be looking at tablet pcs instead. They're a bit pricier, and rarer, but they don't suffer the horrible mouse input that other laptops do. But I've been struggling to find one with an nvidia card newer than a 6200 =(

Re:IBM Ugly

[Threni]

>But not too hard...
>Mine came clean off one day.

That's intentional too. You can buy replacements. Keeps the tip textured and `grippy`.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Anonymous Coward]

Try squeezing it a bit too, or maybe a light nibble...

Re:IBM Ugly

[lanner]

I'm down with the eraserpoint/trackpoint. I definitely prefer it. I was very unhappy when Dell removed it from most of their Inspiron line of laptops some years back.

Re:IBM Ugly

[zojas]

I like the trackpoint better than the touchpad. however, i've found that the trackpoint makes my hand hurt! so I can't use it anymore. when on a table, i plug in a usb mouse, otherwise I have to live with the touchpad. I compensate by minimizing mouse usage.

Re:IBM Ugly

[hawaiian717]

From today's perspective it's clear that you can't fit a trackball into a decently thin laptop.

I'm not sure how to define "decently thin", but Apple had a trackball in the 1.4" thick PowerBook Duos in 1992. To compare, the ThinkPad X60 (not the X60s this article reviewed) stands nearly an inch and a half off the table at the rear. My 2001-era 500MHz white iBook is also just about 1.375", so I'd say even by todays standards 1.4" is still decently thin. It's not exactly ultraslim, but it's still competitive with current products. To be fair, the Duo's trackball was pretty small, I recall hearing it described as a "trackmarble" when it was new.

FWIW, I don't care much for the trackpoint and typically prefer trackpads. However, the only trackpad I really like is Apple's, the times I have had to use Dell's I haven't been impressed, so I can see why people would get a negative impression of trackpads. I usually wind up using an external mouse if I'm going to be using a PC laptop for an extended period of time.

Re:IBM Ugly

[BRSQUIRRL]

All this talk about "fingering" "nipples" is getting my kinda excited.

Re:IBM Ugly

[ninjaboyhya]

Some people REALLY like those things (nipples). I had an ex-girlfriend who had a think pad with a nipple. I hated it and didn't want to use it. Her response was "think of it as practice honey!"

Re:IBM Ugly

[Wabbit Wabbit]

I'm with you on this. I've been using a PowerBook for the last three years and I still don't like the trackpad. Before that it was Thinkpads all the way back to when they first came out. There's nothing like the "LittleRedClit" (TM, pat. pend.) :-)

Re:IBM Ugly

[Anonymous Coward]

One of our IT guys suggested taping a business card so it can be flipped to cover the trackpad when doing serious typing. It works.

Re:IBM Ugly

[iocat]

I like the T & R series of ThinkPads (recently upgraded from an R41 to a T60) as they have both. Of course, I typically disable the trackpad, which causes no end of sadness for guests using my computer, but the "pencil eraser" is clearly superior if you're not using a real mouse. For me, the deciding factor in a laptop is the keyboard. ThinkPad still has the best, but I fear this is a place Lenovo will skimp in the future.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Anonymous Coward]

Or so you'd guess, right?

Re:IBM Ugly

[try_anything]

But can you play Minesweeper? Seriously. If you say yes, I'll be so impressed my next laptop will probably be a ThinkPad.

Re:IBM Ugly

[mrchaotica]

Yeah, like an X60 version of the X-series Tablet, which would have the same specs as the X60 (non-tablet) in the article. Except, wait -- it doesn't exist yet! They've had the normal X60 for forever now, and yet the tablet is still an X41, stuck with a damn Pentium M!

AAARRRGGHHH!!!!!

(I've been waiting on it to come out so that I can replace my iBook (I want to be able to draw diagrams in my lecture notes). Can you tell I'm getting frustrated?)

Re:IBM Ugly

[big tex]

I used to be a big fan of the trackpad, and I hated it when we purchased a bunch of Thinkpads that only had a clitoris (which I think more accurately describes how you use it).

I don't know about you, but I never operate my laptop with my tongue.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Josuah]

Oh, for someone to invent a pointer-controller for a laptop that TRULY rivals a mouse for speed and control...

They're called touch screens. Man, touch screens are like having god mode in FPSers.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Yewbert]

Nope, you're not the only one. I really dislike trackpads - though, oddly, the first time I touched one, I liked it a lot - and vastly prefer the eraser-point nipple. My lazy pointer-finger has a much easier time not screwing things up with the enforced precision of the nipple (first time that phrase has been typed in the English language, I bet).

I'm on my third ThinkPad (1420i Celeron433 1999-2005; T23 PIII 1.1GHz 2005-present - on which I'm typing this; A31 P4-M 2.0GHz, bought used last month), and usually, when I'm working at my own desk at home - to get back vaguely to the sub-thread topic - have a big-ass Kensington track-ball hooked up. Am I the only person who still loves the big clunky-Centipede-machine-sized-but-oh-so-smooth optical Kensingtons beyond all other pointing devices? And am willing to cough up the hefty price?

Re:IBM Ugly

[Anonymous Coward]

But can you play Minesweeper? Seriously. If you say yes, I'll be so impressed my next laptop will probably be a ThinkPad.

You're joking right? Playing Minesweeper with a trackpoint is easy as pie.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer the nipple to the touchpad, but I'm not sure if that's only because I don't have to move my hands to switch between keyboard and mouse. The nipple on my T43 actually annoys me to no end because of the braindead calibration. Why I have to fight against my own pointer device I don't know.

I've searched various forums about pointer issues, and the responses all seem to be: "you don't understand the way the trackpoint works" or "well you need to change your trackpoint technique" or occasionally "well that's just the way it is". In reality there is just no way for the user to solve the problem because the trackpoint calibration is totally uncustomizable. Sure I know that making short bursts with the trackpoint and giving it plenty of "dead time" to recalibrate avoids the problem but why oh why is this necessary? Why at random (and user interfaces should not be random!) times does the trackpoint decide to calibrate in the middle of doing something - not only preventing me from making a fine movement to some place on the screen, but backtracking for a hundred pixels after I finally give up?

Why doesn't the trackpoint driver have smarter routines to decide if there is a true bias in the pointer or if the user is trying to make a genuine movement? At least it should know that it's unrealistic for the calibration to change so much in such a short period of time! I shudder when I think of the millions of dollars IBM probably spend designing the thing. If they can't get the automatic behavior right, they should at least allow the user to make some settings, how about:

  - ability to recalibrate with a key combo or on bootup/wakeup only
  - max change in calibration allowed per unit time / max total bias

And at the least it should behave consistently. Pointer drift because of poor calibration is a bad thing, and looks really bad for the manufacturer.. but what's really worse: having a pointer drift slowly when I'm not doing anything, or having the pointer fight against me when I'm trying to move it?

Re:IBM Ugly

[ASUSanator]

Yeah,
I was in DSE and the "Ferrari" they had their was falling appart (The screen was coming appart and the keyboard was sought of lifting off).
I know it was a demo but none of the other brands where doing this...
Plus the whole "Carbon fiber" look was so wanky.

Re:IBM Ugly

[modeless]

I was never a fan of the trackpoint until I got my X60s and replaced the default convex nub with a larger concave one. It is incredibly obvious to me now that video game control pads should come with trackpoints intead of analog sticks. The fact that the trackpoint hardly moves even when you press it to the maximum gives it a huge advantage over sticks for agile control. It would be especially ideal as a replacement for the PSP's analog thingy, but it would also go great on the Wii controller. Nintendo should jump on this, with their focus on innovative controls.

Re:IBM Ugly

[macshit]

not a touchpad fan - I don't want it anywhere on my system. Such a difficult attitude on my part prevents me from buying many otherwise great systems, as they don't offer 'em without the touchpad.

Yeah, it's pretty lame that the vast majority of laptop manufs have, sheeplike, adopted the trackpad as a defacto "standard". Some of the alternatives were really nice, like panasonic's very usable mini trackball (similarly positioned to a trackpad, but far easier to control precisely when your hands are in a typing position), and the IBM eraser (especially if you mainly do broad movements like window switching).

[It seems counter-intuitive, but I've found the IBM eraser is often easier than a trackpad even for precise movements. Other companies' erasers (e.g. Toshiba) never seemed quite so nice, so I guess IBM must have very good acceleration algorithms or something.]

Re:IBM Ugly

[Habahaba]

The PC trackpad is not good? Well, you said it yourself: "how different implementation of the same idea could work so poorly" - that's IBM/Lenovo.

I have Fujitsu-Siemens with both trackpad and the nipple. The nipple is adjustable has force sensitive and it even has click and drag (which IBM/Lenovo) doesn't have. Then there is the trackpad, which too is fully adjustable (Apple 2 finger scrolling isn't anything new or much at all). Both are great. But as the company has lot's of IBM/Lenovo's, I've had to use others laptops a lot. I think there is a simpple reason why trackpad's suck big time on IBM. They are at the wrong place! It's too low down the keyboard and there is no rest left for the hands. And therefore it sucks. Loose the double buttons and move the trackpad up. You only need the buttons below - which everybody seems to push with the thump of their "other hand".

But thankfully Lenovo had enough sense to include the windows buttons! I always hated why IBM would not include them, yet they were shipping them with windows installed. (You know, it makes life so much easier in the windows land...)

And, yes, they are still darn ugly!

Re:IBM Ugly

[TeknoHog]

You may prefer to use QSynaptics to module tweaking: http://qsynaptics.sourceforge.net/ss.html

I've tried the synaptics stuff for the trackpad, and it doesn't make the bad hardware any better. Due to accidental movements, extra features can mean bigger accidents. And I prefer single commandline stuff for simple on/off controls anyway.

Re:IBM Ugly

[ferocus]

The nipple is cool, but on the trackpad you cand play with two fingers at the same time (where did that mouse pointer go?) i noticed it's good for stress release (just a little bit)

Re:IBM Ugly

[nFriedly]

I like my eraser mouse over a trackpad also; but I have and IBM x41 tablet, so about half of the time I'm using the stylus / 'digitizer pen' instead. Thats about the simplest control I've uesd yet.

Re:IBM Ugly

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're touch typing and your palms are hitting the trackpad on a Thinkpad, you are using very poor posture. Not that I'm a fan of the trackpad..

Re:IBM Ugly

[WuphonsReach]

I must be the only one here who prefers the "nipple" to a trackpad. I tend to have more control with it than the trackpad, and it's quicker to get to than a trackpad, as it's in the middle of the keyboard. I barely have to shift my hand to be able to control it.

Nope, there's lots of us out there who prefer the trackpoint (available on Toshiba Tecra as well, which is what I've used for 6 years now). In fact, I just replaced the keyboard and mouse buttons on my Tecra this past spring, which makes it feel like a brand-new system instead of 4.5 years old.

For a touch-typist, the trackpoint is a great tool for moving the mouse cursor to click on dialogs or reposition the cursor without taking my hands off the home row. It also comes in handy in tight quarters (airline / train seats, small desks, sitting in the easy chair) where an external mouse is a problem.

I do mostly programming and systems administration. The trackpoint meets my needs very well. If I was doing GUI design or graphics, I'd definitely dig out the external mouse and use that.

Come to think of it... I'm not even sure where my external mouse is. Probably got shoved off the back of the desk and is down in 'cord hell'. I'll probably fish it out sometime next year.

Re:IBM Ugly

[WuphonsReach]

Toshiba Tecras are the only other business class system that I know of with a trackpoint-style pointing device.

(It's also a deciding factor on my part. I can't live without it which means either Toshiba Tecra or Lenovo Thinkpad.)

Re:IBM Ugly

[WuphonsReach]

Trackpoints excel at the job of doing 95% typing and about 5% mouse control. I mostly use the trackpoint to click on dialogs because (unlike OS/2 of yore), Windows doesn't do a very good job of letting you do everything with the keyboard. So every few minutes, I'd have to take my hands off the home row and change focus with the mouse.

It also helps if you set the mouse speed to maximum when using a trackpoint. That allows for a gentler touch on the trackpoint (at least on the Toshiba Tecra) and gets you across the screen quicker. It's definitely an acquired skill to deal with a trackpoint that is set to maximum sensitivity. After 6 years of using the pointer on the Toshiba Tecras, I'm very comfortable with it.

Re:IBM Ugly

[zachsandberg]

Personally, one of the reasons I am a fan of Thinkpads, is the lack of BS software installed from the factory. Access IBM has come in handy once or twice that I can remember, I don't consider it useless, as say the 30 "helpfull" bloated utilities that come with HP or Dell's systems. My roomate's Satellite came with unremovable advertising icons in the start menu. He already bought it, c'mon, what more do you want Toshiba?

Re:IBM Ugly

[dsplat]

Of course, one common use for Thinkpads is a pull-out rackmounted drawer with a KVM so they can serve as the keyboard and monitor for the entire rack. The Thinkpad case fits very nicely.

Bias?

[Filik]

That excerpt from the review made me not click on the link. The reviewer blatantly admits bias to the whole line of laptops instead of concentrating on reviewing the latest model...

Re:Bias?

[masklinn]

And you, sir, did well not to read it. The article started with "Squee Thinkpads are the best things since sliced bread and have always been, let's see that the x60s is the bestest bestest thing since hot water!"

AND you had to go through 6 pages to be told repeatedly that the x60s is the best thing ever, without any objective comparison against the competition though, because that may have required actual work.>/p>

Ouch

[Can]

That was one of the most painful articles I've read in a while. It's hard to take a review seriously when there's a typo or missing word in almost every single paragraph. It was almost like I was reading slashdot...

A bit offtopic, but...

[svunt]

The current Lenovo ThinkPad ads in Melbourne have either a man saying something about how he wants to change the world, not back up his data all day, or a female, staring vacuously into camera with a smile that could start drooling any second, saying "I don't care how it works, as long as it works". If my pee-pee was a woo-woo, I'd be hunting down their marketing department with a sledgehammer in each fist. How fucking patronising.

Re:A bit offtopic, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

But your pee-pee is not a woo-woo so stop being such a feminist apologist.

If it was the other way around no one would be complaining.

Re:A bit offtopic, but...

[generic-man]

Gotta fight fire with fire. Here in the US we have Apple commercials featuring a patronising hipster making all sorts of vacuous claims about how Windows computers can't do anything besides produce black and white pie charts, whereas Macs are fun. Oh, and that Macs run Windows too (sold separately) (not supported) (support is currently beta).

Re:A bit offtopic, but...

[Cal Paterson]

Here in the US we have Apple commercials featuring a patronising hipster making all sorts of vacuous claims about how Windows computers can't do anything besides produce black and white pie charts, whereas Macs are fun.

Well, at least if he's wrong on the latter, he's right on the former. Gotta give him credit for that.

Re:A bit offtopic, but...

[ClamIAm]

Even if you do have a pee-pee, that doesn't mean you can't be a feminist.

Anyone can support ideas like "respect" and "equality".

Re:A bit offtopic, but...

[generic-man]

Games?

Re:A bit offtopic, but...

[Cal Paterson]

Games?
It was something of a sarcastic joke. Next time I make a joke at your expense, I'll sound the joke alarm, ok?

Re:A bit offtopic, but...

[generic-man]

Next time you make a joke at my expense, you could at least make it funny.

Re:A bit offtopic, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, and that Macs run Windows too

Except the ads don't make claim that Macs run Windows.

Re:A bit offtopic, but...

[generic-man]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aVdytd-TGM&mode=re lated&search=

or

http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/ and click "Touche" in the list of ads.

This is the one laptop ..

[cheros]

.. I'd use to put my jack on if I ever got stuck in a muddy field. It would survive - they are seriously robust pieces of kit. Having said that, I'm happy with my dual core VIAO now, about the only thing I miss is the keyboard LED.

At least it finally has a Windows key..

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you care if it has a stupid Windows key? I mean, come on, Windows is part of that Microsoft sh!t. I removed the Windows keys from my keyboard because I was tired of seeing that stinking Windows logo long after I removed Windows from my computer. I would rather not have a Windows key there at all.

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[philhyde]

I agree. I've had a T42 for over a year now, and this thing is solid. I've had two full glasses of water spilled on it and after drying out, it's back to business. Only downside is the keyboards aren't quite as good as they used to be.

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you care if it has a stupid Windows key?

Because I use it as a meta-key -- which along with the arrow keys -- let me move around my 2D virtual workspace/viewports/windows under X.

I mean, come on, Windows is part of that Microsoft sh!t.

Oh shit, I didn't realise that. Do I have to stop using my laptop now cause I've only ever used Linux with it?

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[fran.tsao]

Shit! I decided to buy my first Thinkpad because it had NO Windows key. Now they put the f*ck*ng key making smaller ctrl and alt keys :-P

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[mdhoover]

For sure.

Best sales performance I ever saw was when a company I was working for were replacing the old fleet of laptops.
IBM sales guy comes in, states the specs then demonstrated the robustness by putting it on the floor and standing on it.

It impressed us enough to ask the other vendors to perform a similar demonstration, funnily enough the acer and compaq folks declined ;-)

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[Barlo_Mung_42]

The windows key is very useful. I use wk + e and wk + r all day long.

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[Wiktor Kochanowski]

That it finally has a Windows key is the reason why it's 50% less usable for me. I hope to hold on to pre-60 series Thinkpads as long as possible.

Try typing in a non-English language, where the diacritical marks are accessible via the right Alt key. The previous Thinkpads - including the T43 I am typing this on - were the last holdout laptops which had the full size Alt keys, making touch typing possible.

I view it as the start of the inevitable decline of the Thinkpad, which was bound to have started sometime after the Chinese bought the line from IBM, and the last IBM innovations in the pipeline ran out. I fully expect the Chinese to dilute the brand slowly, making it cheaper and more similar to all the rest of the mediocrity on the market.

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[Breakfast Pants]

Remap capslock to escape (for vim), escape to the windows key. Although, escape isn't so far out of the way on a laptop, so you really don't need it moved for vim, you could just make capslock the windows key. Don't even try to tell me you use capslock all day long.

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats the first and only thing I feared when Lenovo took over is that they were going to mess up their t model thinkpads with a stupid windows key which is silly as it sounds one of the reasons I buy thinkpads.

Most of the useful shortcut keys were invented in the windows 3.x era where people might not have even had a mouse. (I'm a shortcut whore and have nearly all key shortcuts mapped ctrl-alt and ctrl-shift-alt)

The thinkpad software allows you to map one of your two alt keys as a windows key. I use the right alt key as my windows key which I do use sometimes to make the start bar rise or the raise/lower all.

To me having a big alt key by far oughtweighs having a little crappy one next to a windows key that gets used more by accidental pressing. My two year old T41 rocks.. It's the best notebook ever :)

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[fm6]

Indeed, both the keys that Microsloth made everybody add to their keyboards, the Windows key and the context menu key, are pretty useless. They have great potential, but MS's own UI designer seem to have forgotten that they're there.

Then again, I sometime want to access the Start menu from keyboard — it's easier than fiddling with the pointing stick. But the fact that my old Thinkpad doesn't have a Windows key is not a problem: I just hit Ctrl-Escape.

Which reminds me of the following issues from the article:

Rather than having a trackpad the X60s uses a one of IBM's signature red pointing sticks. This choice may be a bit disappointing to some people, but I have to say that I very much prefer it to a trackpad. The stick is used with three mouse buttons, one of which is for scrolling.

There must be a lot of people who find trackpads useful, since most laptops use them, and you can even buy them for desktop PCs (they're supposed to be more ergonomic than mice). But I positively hate using them. It's difficult to maneuver the mouse across a big display with them, and the distinction between a slide and a click is too subtle for my clumsy fingers. The absence of a trackpad from most Thinkpad models is a major plus for me.

That third mouse button is a complete mystery to me. It's very hard to use, and doesn't do anything you can't do with page-up and page-down. Now if there were a wheel....

The author of the article seems to think that this model's maximum of 512 mb is a major sin, even though he notes that it has no effect on performance. I'm glad that people are finally beginning to recognize the importance of RAM in system performance, instead of fixating on the CPU. But if you have enough RAM for your applications to function without swapping (and common applications rarely need anything like 512 mb), extra RAM is as useless as high octane gas in a Honda Civic.

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[skiflyer]

That third mouse button is a complete mystery to me. It's very hard to use, and doesn't do anything you can't do with page-up and page-down. Now if there were a wheel....

Completely disagree here... I've remapped mine to be "middle click" (an option in the setup, nothing fancy) as opposed to scrolling and it's great. I can cut'n'paste using emacs properly again, I can middle click to open in a tab, it still works for scrolling in firefox combined with the trackpoint (tho it's brutal in Opera).

For me the three button trackpoint is way at the top of my list of laptop requirements.

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[fm6]

Well, if you actually have an application that uses a three-button mouse, than yeah, that third button is nice. But there aren't a lot of those, and anyway it's not what IBM/Lenovo had in mind when they invented the thing.

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[Anonymous Coward]

I press combinations with Ctrl+Alt all the time, and being able to press both with a thumb is sheer joy. I'll be holding onto my WinKey-less R50e for a while, I think.

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[skiflyer]

Agreed there aren't alot, but when one happens to be Firefox I think it makes a useful argument.

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[Mad Merlin]

But if you have enough RAM for your applications to function without swapping (and common applications rarely need anything like 512 mb), extra RAM is as useless as high octane gas in a Honda Civic.

Wrong. More RAM is always useful in Linux, it'll be used to cache files if it's not used otherwise.

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[habig]

Well, if you actually have an application that uses a three-button mouse, than yeah, that third button is nice. But there aren't a lot of those, and anyway it's not what IBM/Lenovo had in mind when they invented the thing.

X-windows? And thereby every graphical unix app ever. Middle mouse button is paste, use it endlessly.

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[fm6]

I think you're full of shit, but it doesn't matter. Even if you're not, you only need so much memory for that kind of optimization. Having more than you need is useless.

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[fm6]

Somehow I don't hink IBM or Lenovo had that in mind when they addeded the third button to a Windows-based laptop.

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[Anonymous Coward]

> Indeed, both the keys that Microsloth made everybody add to their keyboards, the Windows key and the context menu key, are pretty useless. They have great potential, but MS's own UI designer seem to have forgotten that they're there.

The menu key works everywhere a right click would, and they wisely don't overload the Win key with lots of crap. MS didn't invent buckybit keys -- go look at a real VT terminal sometime. I for one am damn glad to have more modifier keys, as I have a raft of keyboard shortcuts that use them. And in linux, the menu key is a handy compose key.

Now if I could only get the left side keys of sun keyboards.

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[Mad Merlin]

I think you're full of shit, but it doesn't matter. Even if you're not, you only need so much memory for that kind of optimization. Having more than you need is useless.

Run top:

Mem: 2058460k total, 2015392k used, 43068k free, 35628k buffers
Swap: 2000052k total, 312k used, 1999740k free, 1137644k cached

See where it says cached and then a large number after it? That's all cached files. That's my desktop and those numbers are pretty typical, consequently it extremely rarely has to read from the hard drive. Of course that ram is still essentially free if an application actually needs to use it, it doesn't even need to be thrown out to swap, it can just be reused, since the files are still on the hard drive anyways.

You can continue to benefit from this until you've got your entire hard drive cached, and most people have hard drives much larger than 1G (I certainly do at least). Having too much memory is very difficult at the moment, especially since it's difficult to find consumer hardware that really supports more than 2G at the moment (which is likely caused by Windows' outstandingly braindead memory management, coupled with the fact that there's almost no 64-bit Windows support).

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[mrsbrisby]

Get used to pressing control+[ and you'll be able to vi even faster on other people's keyboards.

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[habig]

Somehow I don't hink IBM or Lenovo had that in mind when they addeded the third button to a Windows-based laptop.

Of course - but that doesn't make it any less useful.

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[fm6]

When is this useful? Only when a program reads the same file over and over. Not a very well-written program!

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[fm6]

As usual, a Slashdotter doesn't grasp the difference betwen "generally useful" and "useful to me".

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[habig]

As usual, a Slashdotter doesn't grasp the difference betwen "generally useful" and "useful to me".

On the contrary, but I don't much care about "generally useful", being a "me" rather than a "general". Usefulness to the Word-typing Explorer-clicking masses is a spectator sport, in the meantime I've got work to do.

That said, Thinkpads are famed for their long history of linux compatability, quite a large crowd makes happy use of that middle mouse button in linux. Laptops, especially leading-edge ones, can be a tricky beast in linux, but thinkpads are easier than most.

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[Mad Merlin]

When is this useful? Only when a program reads the same file over and over. Not a very well-written program!

You only start one copy of a program per boot, and never reopen it?

Re:This is the one laptop ..

[fm6]

If you use a program frequently, you leave it open. If you don't use a program frequently, its files will probably have been crowded out of the cache by the time you open it again.

Providing a universal disk cache is one of those hacks that sounds cool, but just doesn't correspond to a real-world use case.

$la$hdot

[squarooticus]

I didn't realize Slashdot was shilling for Lenovo these days. I thought that activity was limited to Apple.

Re:thinkpads?!

[frause]

Why don't you keep your rotten seafood, I keep my Thinkpad and everyone will be happy?

Fantastic Thinkpads, but PLEASE makeover the X!

[lonesometrainer]

I'm a road warrior and I've been using Thinkpads only since '99 and never looked back. A-series, T-series and now a Z-series thinkpad. Even though my current thinkpad is one of the first models designed and produced by Lenovo it's still a real thinkpad.

Why I love them:

[1] High mechanical quality, e.g. look at the hinges holding the display, that's solid metal! My last one, a T41p looked like brand new after 18 months and I used it every day for at least 8 hours, look at a typical Sony/Dell/HP after that timeframe!
[2] best keyboard in the industry, actually I even prefer my Thinkpad keyboard over Cherry keyboards
[3] the thinkpad light above the display (I love it), the docking solutions are very advanced, support is great

I personally don't care whether it has the latest GPU, fastest harddrive, etc. - and - I'm not gonna buy a glossy screen either.

BUT _please_ give me a new thinkpad X-series tablet! I absolutely need a higher resolution than 1024x768. I would immediately (tomorrow morning, before breakfast and shower) buy a X61s tablet with resolution > 1024x768, core 2 duo and 3rd generation mobile data service (e.g. HSDPA).

But, as far as I know, it's not gonna happen. The x60/x61 tablet will still have 1024x768 :-(

Re:Fantastic Thinkpads, but PLEASE makeover the X!

[hotfireball]

> I would immediately (tomorrow morning, before breakfast and shower)
> buy a X61s tablet with resolution > 1024x768, core 2 duo and 3rd generation
> mobile data service (e.g. HSDPA).

It is called a "MacBook".

Re:Fantastic Thinkpads, but PLEASE makeover the X!

[lonesometrainer]

It is called a "MacBook".

No, it's not.

WTF are you talking about?

The Macbook is...

[a] no tablet
[b] has a glossy display and
[c] has no core _2_ duo

Do you read before you post?

Re:Fantastic Thinkpads, but PLEASE makeover the X!

[Registered Coward v2]

Do you read before you post?

Welcome to /.

Re:Fantastic Thinkpads, but PLEASE makeover the X!

[weg]

It is called a "MacBook".

No, it's not.

Remember: For Mac fanboys, Macs are always better.
All your objections can be easily fixed.

[a] no tablet
Simply glue a wacom tablet to your Macbook.

[b] has a glossy display and
Anti-gloss hair spray helps.

[c] has no core _2_ duo
but Steve said the MacBook is faster!

Btw., I own a 12" powerbook.. but I'd love to have a X61 tablet (with Vista ;-)), too...

Re:Fantastic Thinkpads, but PLEASE makeover the X!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Mac mini"?

Re:Fantastic Thinkpads, but PLEASE makeover the X!

[alchemy101]

Macfanboy recommends... A Newton?

Re:Fantastic Thinkpads, but PLEASE makeover the X!

[Wilykiote]

I bought a Lenovo z60m about a month after they came out. ATI x300 graphics, 1gig RAM, 1.73 Intel Wide screen. I use it at work, I use it at home, it has been everywhere with me. They sell lower end models of this system now with many less features. I am not a fan of a lot of the older T-series, except maybe a 43, but other than that I am very pleased an impressed with the Thinkpad line since Lenovo took it over. P.S, I work for IBM as well.

reduced market

[TexNex]

IBM made some great machines and it seems that Lenovo has continued to support quality over looks. Unfortuneatly, Lenovo will have less oportunity than other brands due to the US govenrment outlawing them (the purchase that is) in Federal facilities.

Re:reduced market

[TerranFury]

...which is funny -- because, before IBM sold the brand name to Lenovo, guess where the laptops were made?

(Hint: Not Ohio.)

This is just politics, pure, xenophobic, and simple.

It's true that you need to watch your back when doing business in China. I've had too many Chinese friends, with too many frightening my-dad-the-doctor-was-approached-to-sell-organs-on -the-black-market type stories to be naive about that. There are plenty of good people, but Communism, poverty, and the greedy allure of soul-crushing Capitalism got together and twisted China into a horrendously corrupt anything-for-a-buck place that makes Enron's board room look like an ivory tower. It makes me thank God for my heretofore suburban American life. But that doesn't mean that Lenovo is a disreputable business, and it certainly doesn't imply that other suppliers should be trusted any more.

I personally own a Dell. My company gave me a Thinkpad. The Thinkpad has a broken monitor latch (plastic). The Dell has thermal problems that cause hard drives to fail with annoying regularity. So neither is perfect. But, broken latch notwithstanding, the Thinkpad feels solid. It also has the perfect dimensions for a laptop, and it runs Debian like a champ -- with rare kernel support for my wifi adapter! (A Cisco Aero, if you're in the market). So of the two, I'd take the Thinkpad.

Besides: When you're running MS Windows as your OS, worrying about the security of your hardware seems like misplaced attention! Why would Beijing design motherboards when they can just hire script kiddies?

Re:reduced market

[Anonymous Coward]

Where have you read this? I work as tech support at the National Animal Disease Center (a federal facility if there has ever been one) and I have never heard of this rule. In fact, researchers are allowed to purchase whichever brand of laptop they prefer; I consistently come across Mac, Toshiba, Dell, Acer, HP, and IBM machines. We are more stringent when it comes to desktops, but laptops and portables are completely up to the individual.

I like my HP Comapq nc6400 Business Notebook

[nxtw]

People mistake my laptop for a ThinkPad when they don't see it up close. It's obviously not a Thinkpad, and it's lacking some of the ThinkPad features. But it's built pretty well. It's got an excellent 14.1" WXGA screen that's surprisingly about as bright or brighter than my desktop LCD panels. It's got the ambient light sensor and hard drive accelerometer. It actually has *more* battery options that the equivalent ThinkPad model -- there's a 12-cell addon available that brings total estimated capacity to 16hr.

Most importantly, it was hundreds cheaper than an equivalent ThinkPad.

Re:I like my HP Comapq nc6400 Business Notebook

[pdovy]

I've got to agree with you. Usually I lump HP's into the "crap" category of laptops, but their business line (I own an nx9420) contains some seriously robust pieces of equipment.

That said, I'd prefer a T60 .. but at half the price, almost the same quality, and equivalent specs, I'll take it.

The perfect laptop

[interstellar_donkey]

Forgive me for being slightly off topic, but the discussion regarding the thinkpad has got me to thinking. The thinkpad has come in iterations that are physically robust and sturdy, but still are (to me) a little too fragile. Most laptops are far worse, and it's always a little nerve racking to carry around a $1k piece of equipment which appears as if it would shatter if dropped from more then four feet.

I've never had a laptop where I didn't wear out the keyboard in less then a year. Screens go bad too easily (and I'm scared to death to let anything touch them). Batteries, while they have improved over the last decade, still have far too little life in them.

Yet, with improving technology and manufacturing, the focus seems to be on faster processors and high performance graphics chips (which in turn eat up more power). How is it that there is no market out there for a good, cheap notebook that does the essentials (runs a browser and an office suite) that's as durable as a, well, an actual traditional paper notebook?

I'd love something that I can throw in a backpack or satchel and not have to worry if it's going to get broken by other books, or scratched to heck, or have the screen go bad from being crushed. Something that can last 15-20 hours between charging, so I don't have to always be looking for a power port. I don't need it to play games or do any high end video work. A decent, durable display that'll do 1024x768 would be fine. I don't need excessive power; a 1.6ghz processor with 128m of ram and a 50gig hdd would be more then enough. Finally, put in a keyboard that is indestructible.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I'd be more then willing to sacrifice performance for durability. Am I the only one who thinks this way? Or are there laptop manufacturers out there who make decent, cheap machines that are built like tanks, but don't necessarily have a higher end hardware inside?

Re:The perfect laptop

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't the laptop you just described the One Laptop Per Child? If so, then yes someone has thought about it, but it's for a completely different market.

Re:The perfect laptop

[Zarhan]

I guess what I'm getting at is that I'd be more then willing to sacrifice performance for durability. Am I the only one who thinks this way? Or are there laptop manufacturers out there who make decent, cheap machines that are built like tanks, but don't necessarily have a higher end hardware inside?

    Cheap, not. But you can try Panasonic Toughbook or even beyond, check out Itronix.

Re:The perfect laptop

[Blackknight]

Cheap or Durable.

Pick one.

Personally I think laptops are cheap enough now where it's not worth worrying about how long it will last. A $500 laptop should last a few years and by the time it breaks the machine will be obsolete any way.

Re:The perfect laptop

[rah1420]

I've had my T23 [Thinkpad] for years; carried it everywhere, replaced the keyboard once already, and (as mentioned earlier in the comments) need to worry now about the fluorescent lamp as my screen is dying from red tint. I count things like lamps and keyboards as "FRUs" to use IBM-speak, even in a laptop. Lamps have a service life, keyboards are a moving part... while I sympathize with your desire for a ruggedized laptop, I wonder whether a high-end Thinkpad would fill the bill if you simply acknowledge that some things will just break after a while.

I have a friend who works for Mitre whose job it was, a few years ago, to "put TCP/IP in tanks." That phrase tells me that if you want a ruggedized laptop, you may be able to get one; but you may pay MIL-spec prices for it, too. At some point, you need to draw your cost/benefit curves and figure out what you're happy with.

Re:The perfect laptop

[interstellar_donkey]

I had forgotten about that. It's a brillient idea and i's comforting to know the desingers realized your run of the mill school children would break your typical laptop the first week they received it.

But yes, that's more or less what I'm looking for; those seem to be pretty durible and designed for heavy use. Heck, I'd spend up to $400 on one if they could design it so it didn't look like a Play-School toy, included the OS, an entry level version of MS Office suite, and had a good battery.

I still don't see, however, how there can't be a market for things like that outside of education?

Re:The perfect laptop

[interstellar_donkey]

Actually, I see it as a choice between Cheep, Durible and Performance. You won't get all three, but I don't think it's a reach to expect you get two of them.

A $500 laptop will last a few years if it's handled carefully. You still wouldn't throw one in your backpack full of books and other assorted hard objects.

Re:The perfect laptop

[Kumochisonan]

Panasonic Toughbook, built like a tank, weighs like a tank...

Re:The perfect laptop

[kemichail]

Cheap not so much but Panasonic Toughbooks http://www.panasonic.com/business/toughbook/home.a sp and, well, the Getac M220 http://www.getac.com/m220.htm look like they'd survive a warzone.

Unfortunatly if I'm not mistaken they are like 4grand...

Re:The perfect laptop

[beaverfever]

Is this the mandatory apple post? Perhaps, but I don't think of myself as a shill.

Having said that, I bought a 12" powerbook three years ago (almost to the day) and it has been solid from a hardware POV (well, software too). What has impressed me most is the keyboard - it is very nice for a portable. Personally, I suspect all the negative publicity apple got recently over hardware problems in portables was blown out of proportion.

I haven't dropped the machine except when in my well-padded bag (and then only two or three serious knocks), but it has been picked up by the lid/screen more than once and suffered no damage (my boss's boss did this - I nearly had a heart attack each time and tried to keep it away from him). The screen is 1028x768, and still has no dead pixels. The machine is solidly made, and gives a firm "thud" when placed on a table - no buzz or rattle from loose fittings.

This laptop has always been used heavily every single day (except when I'm on holiday). The machine can get hot and the fans are a bit loud, but I have the processor running near/at max a lot every day. Despite such intense usage, the only hardware failure I had was the original hard drive, which went after a year and a half.

On the downside, battery performance is nowhere near your ideal (although what comp has such specs?) and the batteries have "gone bad" and lost lifespan - after about a year and a half I need a replacement. My second one is losing noticeable lifespan now and will be replaced soon.

This portable is from near the end of the run for the first generation 12"machines from apple. I got the new product early enough to be nervous about "v1 curse" but late enough that I think the bugs were ironed out. Still, admittedly I was fairly sceptical when I bought this machine, but it was a compromise based on needs vs budget. "Very pleasantly surprised" describes how much I have liked this machine. The size is very nice. I don't even know if apple still offers a 12" pro book, but I will certainly consider buying another when replacement time finally comes.

Re:The perfect laptop

[loyukfai]

I can't tell exactly how you treat your notebooks just from your words, but it seems to me that you're asking too much for a traditional design, even that of a ThinkPad, which is renowned for its quality, durability, and occasionally fly-ability (like being thrown from the 2nd floor of an apartment but still survived...)

Maybe a Toughbook or something like that will suite you more...? http://www.panasonic.com/business/toughbook/home.a sp

Re:The perfect laptop

[Jeff DeMaagd]

You can get an ultralight notebook that should last for about seven hours on batteries. That would currently max out at about 1.2GHz. They use ultra low voltage chips. Intel marks them with a "U" in front of the model number, such as U2400. The L series will still get you better than average battery life and 1.66GHz Core Duo.

I have a couple old ordinary business class notebooks, four and five years old and they still work fine, so I don't understand what your durability issues are. I would suggest that you would get a Toughbook-29. It uses a 1.66GHz chip and if you stuff to batteries into it, it is rated for 12 hours. It's tested for military toughness, which means that sand and water won't hurt it. It's 8lb.

Re:The perfect laptop

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Panasonic Toughbook, built like a tank, weighs like a tank...

Don't be a pussy. The "Rugged" series Toughbook-29 weighs 8lb. Sounds like you need the exercise anyway. That's about the weight of a standard 17" notebook (though TB-29 is 13.3") and it is still lighter than those desknotes and is rated to run 5-8 hours on batteries.

They also have their "Semi-Rugged" line which look more like consumer notebooks.

Re:The perfect laptop

[Breakfast Pants]

Well, no one has proven that there is a market inside education.

Re:The perfect laptop

[ColdWetDog]

Aside from the 15-20 hours of battery life - you're smoking something good there - the Panasonic toughbooks seem to be what you want. Expensive and not top-of-the-mark performance but rugged.

Re:The perfect laptop

[generic-man]

I also bought a 12" Powerbook. The thing is made from aluminum, one of the most malleable materials you can get. (Only the forthcoming MacBook Gold is softer among notebooks.) I toted it around in my bag every day until I noticed that the contacts around the power cable got bent. Five minutes with a capped pen brought it back somewhere near normalcy, but it just reinforced my belief that this thing is incredibly delicate.

Reminds me of the first TiBooks. Remember how everyone drank Steve's Kool-Aid when he said he was using NASA-grade titanium -- and then it turned out he made the case about 2 millimeters thick so it was incredibly brittle?

Aside from the body being so flaky the laptop has held up over time. I'm undecided as to a MacBook 13" or a ThinkPad tablet next time around -- maybe Apple will create the very first Mac tablet before my warranty on this p'book runs out.

Re:The perfect laptop

[master control progr]

The semi-rugged laptops are good machines.

I use a CF-Y2, not too cheap, but it's got decent battery life and is lightweight (about 3.5 pounds), not to mention that it survived a fall off my desk with no problems.

Re:The perfect laptop

[robertc5]

I went through 3 Thinkpads in as many years. All of em had durability problems and; every stinkin' one of them had internal power connectors that broke. According to IBM Customer service (at the time); this is a very well known problem with Thinkpads.

I did some research and eventually bought a Toughbook. The keyboard is great and have had exactly "0" problems in the 3-1/2 years I have owned it.

It seems to me that many laptop manufacturers are comfortable with laptops that are fragie, expensive and even lack so simple a device as a handle on their sleek and slippery machines.

Re:The perfect laptop

[Paul Jakma]

I just bought a Dell D420 with a U2500 1.2GHz Core Duo. Battery life is just over 3 hours, if you turn down brightness and fix CPUs to 800MHz.

Re:The perfect laptop

[Phroggy]

I don't even know if apple still offers a 12" pro book,

They don't currently. The 13" Macbook has 64MB of shared AGP video and isn't available with a non-glossy screen. The smallest Macbook Pro is 15".

OFFTOPIC BUT INTERESTING?

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot has its millionth registered user. (Actually, this isn't strictly true because some of the UIDs are unused.) It would appear that Mr Peterson create a couple of hundred sock puppets to bump up the UID.

Re:OFFTOPIC BUT INTERESTING?

[LiquidCoooled]

I noticed this after bananastewguy created an account to respond to an article a couple of days ago.
I wonder if any parts of slash are limited to short formatted uids.

Looking at the list, it does look like someone made a script to create accounts, but there is no indication it was mr Peterson who did it, and actually more likely that NiceRoundNumber was the guy who did it (since it seems he was aiming for it).

Re:OFFTOPIC BUT INTERESTING?

[menkhaura]

Shouldn't it be a story on its own?

a feature...

[Fanther]

This product has never stopped being a top choice for demanding consumers and corporate buyers, whether they are looking for size, power, or features.

Or just a single feature - like the TrackPoint... Few other brands have them nowadays.

Multi Search

Re:a feature...

[Momo_CCCP]

I'm personally not a big fan of the trackpoint but if you're looking for an ultra portable that has one you might want to give the Dell D420 a look.

This is just wrong.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Thinkpad line, in my opinion, only still exists because of its reputation which stems from models available decades ago. The newer Thinkpads are WAY overpriced and come in inexplicably stupid combinations of accessories, the only intent being to get the customer to buy an even more expensive model.

While it may be true that IBMs got the first usable laptops, nowadays there are many other vendors with much better models around.

Re:This is just wrong.

[Sepodati]

What other models/vendors are available that are as durable as a Thinkpad and cheaper?

Re:This is just wrong.

[nxtw]

I've heard that the HP Compaq Business Notebook line is very comparable to a ThinkPad and they tend to be cheaper.

Note that this is NOT the dv- or V- series line of their consumer notebooks.

I personally own a HP Compaq nc6400.

Re:This is just wrong.

[ces]

I find Thinkpads to be quite cost-competitive with equivalent models from other vendors.

Certainly for the same or similar features you'll be paying roughly the same price in Dell's Latitude or HP's business notebook line.

Re:This is just wrong.

[Anonymous Coward]

My company switched from Compaq/HP to IBM/Lenovo about 2.5 years ago with the last Compaq laptops going back about 1 year ago. We have about 1000 laptops and lease them for 2 years each on a rotating schedule. The models we've had were Compaq Evo n400/410 and N600/610 models to IBM x30/31/32 and t40/41/42. Really long ago we had the Compaq M700 but I can not comment on them as I only worked there for a few months with those.

IMHO, overall the IBM/Lenovo models are much better. The only issue we had that stood out with the IBM models was the T41 and the internal network card blowing out from static. This was repeatable and happened to several users multiple times. We would give them a loner and it would fail as well. IBM did send a rep out but the problem just kind of went away, maybe the summer humidity fixed it, who knows. The Compaqs? They were reliable overall but not as reliable compared directly to the Thinkpads. They had the same static issue. Compaq actually sent a tech out and did a field change for some grounding issues to almost 300 of our laptops to resolve it. The batteries, screens, HDs (POS batches of Fujitsu), cd/dvd drives that would not read disks, power packs failing, many KBs etc.. Some of these same things failed on the IBMs as well but probably at 1/4 the rate of the Compaq models. Our IBMs failed more from user errors (broken screens, dropped, water/coffee/soda) then actual random faults.

Emacs Hostile Keyboard

[sofayam]

From the article: "The only complaint with the keyboard is the positioning of the Ctrl and Alt buttons on the bottom left, it is very easy to hit the Function (Fn) key when you mean to go for Ctrl."

That might be because they GOT THEM THE WRONG WAY ROUND!!!

Idiots

Re:Emacs Hostile Keyboard

[jamiethehutt]

Oh I'm sure Emacs will have a function that can move your keys around.

Re:Emacs Hostile Keyboard

[Breakfast Pants]

Won't matter, fn isn't considered a 'key' that can be remapped.

Re:Emacs Hostile Keyboard

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to agree, this is a horrible design decision, and it becomes really apparent when you try to do some actual work on the machine rather than running automated benchmarks. In any application, I need to use the Ctrl key every few minutes to access some kind of function without clicking a menu. I only use the Fn key for controlling volume or brightness. Why should Fn be in the most accessible function-key spot on the keyboard, the bottom-left? I assume Lenovo keeps the keys this way so that old customers don't have to unlearn habits, but if I want to get work done I'm choosing a laptop designed to let me interact with my programs properly.

Re:Emacs Hostile Keyboard

[Anonymous Coward]

no. not a horrible place for the 'fn'. it's a smart one once you realise why.
check a picture of the keyboard. bottom left key is the 'fn', top right key is 'pg up'. 'fn'+'pg up' = think-light on/off. they choose those keys so you could turn on the think light in the dark or at least that's what i think

Stubborn to the end...

[jpellino]

All models retain the "Bambi-On-Ice" TrackPoint. Talk about legacy computing. I know people who have been so inurred to this device that they'll shove aside a mouse or forsake the also-installed-trackpad on some of these to a point-stop-click dance or a two handed (RH point, LH click) dance. Yikes.

Re:Stubborn to the end...

[jamiethehutt]

All models retain the "Bambi-On-Ice" TrackPoint. Talk about legacy computing. I know people who have been so inurred to this device that they'll shove aside a mouse or forsake the also-installed-trackpad on some of these to a point-stop-click dance or a two handed (RH point, LH click) dance. Yikes.

I quite like the TrackPoint. You put your finger on it and push it in the direction you want to go, not like a pad where you put your finger on it and drag and drag and drag and drag.

Re:Stubborn to the end...

[Anonymous Coward]

Tons of people at my school have ThinkPads and most of them DON'T do the two-hand thing, including me. I use my right hand with the index finger on the trackpoint and thumb on the trackpoint buttons. What's so hard about that?

Re:Stubborn to the end...

[Sepodati]

You should teach the idiots how to use the TrackPoint correctly, then. You only need one hand. Index finger is on the TrackPoint and the thumb is on the buttons. You can press any of the three buttons with your thumb and it's easy to hold them down while you're dragging something. The contours on the buttons make it real easy to press, too, not like the sunken buttons on the Dells.

The first thing I did on my Thinkpads was disable the horrible trackpad thing.

---John Holmes...

Re:Stubborn to the end...

[gsasha]

Well, there are people who prefer these. I've been downgraded from a Thinkpad to a Dell :(, and I find the touchpad mightily infcomfortable in comparison to IBM's red nipple. So, even if you prefer one way of doing things, remember that there are lots of people out there, and some might actually disagree with you...

And in any case, a mouse is more convenient than any *pad a laptop can give you. If I had to choose, I'd rather the laptop was supplied with a tiny rechargeable, optical, BT-connected mouse which would somehow dock for storage inside the laptop body (and would maybe have a small slide-out mouse pad for those situations that I'm not working on a table. OK, maybe it should be wired to lessen the chances of having it misplaced.

Re:Stubborn to the end...

[cshuttle]

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/ 05/1710228

Imagine if Microsoft could re-think it

[Centurix]

They'd make a 16 bit version and call it a Thunkpad.

Re:Imagine if Microsoft could re-think it

[pyroflower]

Roflmao! thunk pad! That's great. What is the major advantage of the think pad, anyways? I mean, definitely not to knock it, but I paid less than half what that costs for an Asus a3h that's 1)easy to upgrade 2)great for travel conferencing (i.e., built in mike and cam) 3)Basically the same in hardware specs. Is it just a casing durability that adds the other thousand onto the thinkpad? I don't have dual core in my asus, but everything else is about the same... Just wondering. Ciao!

Re:Imagine if Microsoft could re-think it

[Centurix]

I owned one many years ago and it was fairly rugged until I dropped it down 30 concrete steps in Singapore. I had accidentally poured beer over it the night before but it survived, although the little rubber nipple thing in the keyboard went kinda funky, turning to the same consistency as Silly Putty.

They repaired it at my cost, replaced the inverter, case and keyboard (they complained of a strange smell, I didn't tell them about the Tiger beer bath it had previously) and I used it for about six months until I traded for a Toshiba, which was practically bomb proof as I ran over it 8 months later and *nothing* broke.

Luckily, it wasn't a tram that ran it over, like the one that ran over my Motorola E398 phone. It was totally flat. I did take it in to show the repair shop for a joke, asked if it was a warranty job. They were very polite.

Re:Imagine if Microsoft could re-think it

[wwwillem]

... and it was fairly rugged until I dropped it down 30 concrete steps in Singapore. I had accidentally poured beer over it the night before ...

Could it be that some of the beer that night did not go over the keyboard but in into your throat, which caused the next day the unfortunate 30 step drop ??? :-)

Re:Imagine if Microsoft could re-think it

[Centurix]

haha, now that you mention it, there was an element of that.

I remember the fall quite well, it plays in my mind in slow motion, except my mind has added a slow moving pram and a gun fight. Once you do film studies it scars you for life...

Re:Imagine if Microsoft could re-think it

[wwwillem]

I lived for 4 years in Singapore, so still trying to imagine where those 30 steps were located ..... :)

Re:Imagine if Microsoft could re-think it

[Centurix]

It was just outside the SGH.

Who would win in a fight?

[Anonymous Coward]

A thinkpad or a toughbook? My money on the toughbook says thinkpads are pussies. Bring it on!

I have been impressed

[Mostly a lurker]

Thus far, I have been very happy with what I have seen of Lenovo's actions. The newer Thinkpad models are better specified, a little cheaper and the warranty conditions have improved. I am actually more likely to buy Thinkpads now than when IBM was running the show.

I miss my Thinkpad...

[Anonymous Coward]

...but not the OS it shipped with.
I would love a modern Thinkpad with OSX, the keyboard is amazing and the thing feels bloody rock solid when closed (unlike my recent Apples... which are all squishy)

Refurbished Thinkpads

[SIGBUS]

There are plenty of places offering refurbished Thinkpads at bargain prices. I got both my T22 and T30 via that route, and they've been solid performers.

Ummm, what's going on here?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen a Lenovo Thinkpad before and It had "Lenovo" written on it. This one still has the IBM Logo. I don't think it's possible for Lenovo to use this logo. What's going on? are these the wrong pictures?

The model I saw also didn't have the stupid red nipple-button thingy.

Re:Ummm, what's going on here?

[Ethan Allison]

Lenovo sells IBM branded ThinkPads/ThinkCentres and its own Lenovo 3000 series computers.

Re:Ummm, what's going on here?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lenovo can use the IBM branding for a few years yet. On the bottom you would see "Manufactured in China for Lenovo Singapore".

See June 2006 ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Consumer Reports.

For Budget Laptops, the HP dv5002 ($845 list)came in tops overall score 74: Lenovo score 76 ($1325).

Top scoring laptop - Apple Macbok Pro overall score 77 ($2100 list). Those three points cost $1255.

Although, Apple blew the doors of of everybody when it came to tech support!

Re:See June 2006 ...

[generic-man]

Lenovo often bundles a 3-year warranty with its products. The HP model you cited costs an extra $185-$350 with a 3-year warranty, plus you have to deal with what HP/Compaq calls "tech support."

(HP/Compaq may have cleaned up its act since I had that hellish episode, but I'm not ever buying one of their products again.)

Nipples for Great Justice

[psychosquee]

Fortunately for you, you're not. I've become so accustomed to using the Tracknipple that I actually become infuriated when I have to use a touchpad... so hideously inefficient!

Re:Nipples for Great Justice

[hpavc]

Agreed, I love it as well. I couldn't go back. When I think of switching to a Apple, the keyboard is what stops me.
IBM has a great keyboard especially with the trackpoint + trackpad setups. The synergy features are great.

Re:Nipples for Great Justice

[Amiga Trombone]

I used to feel the same way - I'd bought an iBook just to check out OS X, but the one-button mouse and the track-pad drove me nuts. I missed my Think-Pad nipple! The iBook sat and gathered dust for a number of months. Eventually, I needed to send my Think-Pad in for repairs, so for about a week I was stuck with the iBook.

It was mostly just a matter of getting used to a different way of doing things. By the time the Think-Pad was returned, I had gotten used to the Mac. Now I can switch between the Think-Pad and the Mac seamlessly, without any mental clashing of gears.

Persistence is the key!

Re:Nipples for Great Justice

[mr_stinky_britches]

Heaven forbid we actually read the article! Even if you had previously looked at only a picture of the ThinkPad X60, you would realize that it is a "Nipple- (or Nub-) only machine", meaning that it has the red dot and no trackpad.

Regards,
Stinky

Check out IBM's wrongdoing

[Anonymous Coward]

It's right here: http://malfy.org/

SD Card Readers: Pointless?

[MulluskO]

Seriously, does anybody ever use the card readers that come bundled with laptops now? Isn't this sort of thing obsoleted with USB and thumb drives?

Re:SD Card Readers: Pointless?

[AnimeDTA]

Seriously, does anybody ever use the card readers that come bundled with laptops now? Isn't this sort of thing obsoleted with USB and thumb drives?

Quite the contrary

I've yet to see many cameras, mp3 players, cell phones or pdas that have a USB ports to plug thumb drives into. The cell phones I use either use miniSD or transflash memory, both come with SD card adaptors. My mp3 player at worst doubles as a card reader for my pc besides being able to play music off the memory. I'm thankful that my dell laptop came with an SD card reader. I use it to empty my SD cards when they're full.

As for thumb drives... they prove to be mostly useless, carrying around unaccessible data. The only use for it I see is to make it bootable and put linux on it for when i have to use someone else's laptop or pc. No laptop or pc... no use.

Re:SD Card Readers: Pointless?

[MulluskO]

I guess at this point I should confess I use neither SD card nor thumb drive. I've always used my university's network storage.

Re:SD Card Readers: Pointless?

[Phroggy]

Uhhh.. what the hell are you talking about?

You don't plug a USB thumb drive into the camera, copy your photos onto that, then plug the thumb drive into your laptop and copy the photos off. That would be ridiculous. The idea is, you plug the camera directly into the laptop via the included USB cable, and the camera itself (with memory chip inside) shows up as a standard mass storage device.

Works for me.

But a card reader is probably significantly faster.

Re:SD Card Readers: Pointless?

[AnimeDTA]

The point is that card readers are not obsolete. A laptop with a card reader is more versatile.

Ideally one would plug their camera or other device directly into a computer, but more often I'm asked to move data off the devices without a cable for friends/co-workers. I've not met anyone that actually carries around their USB cable when they're on a day excursion or visiting. Usually they leave it plugged into their PC. I personally would not walk around with all my cables in my pocket when i go to a friend's.

Back to the laptop, a built-in card reader is something I look for in a laptop after cpu/memory/hdd, its almost as important as DVD/CD drive. USB is something I take for granted as available.

T's for corporate Lenovos for personal use

[gelfling]

Based on the some of the latest feedback of the problems that people have with the T60's it seems clear that Lenovo's plan is to niche the Thinkpad into the corporate market where it can be supported and doesn't have to handle the media/entertainment features that home users want. On the other hand the Lenovo N series is better suited to home users anyhow. I have Thinkpad T40 and a Lenovo N100 so I feel I'm qualified to have an opinion about this.

Re:T's for corporate Lenovos for personal use

[timeOday]

What are the problems with the T60? I think I'm about to get one (to replace my trusty T40). By only beef so far is it isn't available with Core 2 Duo.

Re:T's for corporate Lenovos for personal use

[timeOday]

Oh yeah, my other beef is the T60 is thicker than the T40.

Re:T's for corporate Lenovos for personal use

[gelfling]

Seems like the biggest problems are in the area of multimedia DRM support, power consumption, NIC driver incompatibility, mulivendor VPN support and microcode difficulties. Moreover most of the corporate experience with Vista is on Thinkpads so we're seeing a lot of problems that we think are directly the result of not having designed Vista for that platform in the first place.

Re:T's for corporate Lenovos for personal use

[KozmoStevnNaut]

How is the 3000 series laptops compared to the Thinkpads? Is the build quality any good, and how hard would it be to run Linux on one?

If the build quality is good, the only feature I would really miss is the trackpoint, and I could probably live without that. The V100 looks like a really nice smallish laptop, and my T42 is too big to use properly on trains and such (I ride trains about 500-600 kilometres every week).

Re:T's for corporate Lenovos for personal use

[gelfling]

I don't know anyting about running Linux on. I personally don't like trackpads either and if I had the time and it was my machine I would tweak the settings a lot to minimize the movement. At any rate it's solid has good fit and finish and is reliable enough for a college student to carry it around all day in a backpack. The widescreen format is excellent but I would prefer a slightly higher res option for a screen that large. My one caveat is that the power supply runs hotter than it should. My other semi - concern is that Lenovo appears to charge a great deal for replacing the base 80GB drive with 120 or larger unit - several hundred dollars. But since I have a USB hard drive as a backup device I don't need the extra storage. This is an N100 model

aaaaarrrrggghh...

[Anonymous Coward]

...those bloody chinese motherfuckers have added Windoze-keyz on the ThinkPad !!!

Re:sadly, it's not as popular as you might think

[Psykechan]

From the artice: Rather than having a trackpad the X60s uses a one of IBM's signature red pointing sticks. This choice may be a bit disappointing to some people, but I have to say that I very much prefer it to a trackpad.

I have used many different pointing devices on laptops over the years and I love the TrackPoint. Sadly the de facto standard is the touch pad due to sloppy TrackPoint implementations from companies like Toshiba and things like the UltraNav which sacrificed usability for a better sales feature.

The TrackPoint will remain a niche market until it finally fades away and most people won't even care. On the plus side, at least there have been new things like "two finger scrolling" that are making touch pads nicer to use... just make sure you turn off "tap to click".

I'd just like to say

[Neuropol]

Thanks to IBM for having created the thinkpad, and to Lenovo for continuing to carry the torch.

Pi and Thinkpads - two universal constants

mb-t40@mb-t40-laptop:~$_

The system software update feature

[QuietLagoon]

The thing I like about the Thinkpads (aside from their ruggedness) is the system software update ability. It's like a Windows Update that is tailored to the software you have on your ThinkPad, and (unlike Windows Update) it works! :)

I run Windows 2000 on my ThinkPad and the drivers and programs for that OS are still being kept up to date. When I did a reinstall of Windows 2000 a few months ago, I just installed vanilla Windows 2000, loaded the ThinkPad update program from my archive, ran it, and all the drivers necessary to support the ThinkPad hardware features were downloaded and installed.

Nice, very nice.

No optical drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was going to show off Elive CD on a THinkpad to my friends. My imaginary friends, though, can see the CD drive, but I can't. and they continue to mock me.

Seriously though, I still drool for the WXGA Thinkpads.

new thinkpads! hah the old one still works!

[gsn]

Interesting timing /. - I have an old A22e from 2001 just after I started college. Its optical drive finally crapped out yesterday (getting a replacement) but its still very usable - no quake 4 obviously but it can handle your day to day activity with no sweat. I'll probably put DSL or Vector on it soon but it still runs xubuntu though a tad sluggish (been through 98se, xp, redhat). The stickydick (nipple) still works even. Every one of my college papers was banged out on that keyboard and its still more responsive than the piece of crap logitech I have for my desktop that I'm typing this on - the entire thing was built to last. I rather like the new color scheme and lack of red - much cleaner and I'm surprised hes whining about the Fn vs Ctrl - you kinda get used to that. I've seen my moms toshiba satellite bought later die earlier. Its going to outlive my friends lifebook. The only thing thats putting up a reasonable fight is my labmates Presario 3015 which is almost a year younger. Eventually I'll buy another thinkpad - slightly worried because I'm not sure how lenovo build quality compares to ibm proper but so far good reviews - but I can still eke out another couple of years. It was my baby and I'm not giving up on it yet! Ok

Re:new thinkpads! hah the old one still works!

[Hymer]

"...slightly worried because I'm not sure how lenovo build quality compares to ibm..."
Lenovo build quality sucks... We've got T43's from before the shift and after the shift and the build quality on those after the shift are poorer.
I'll wait until I see some good stuff from Lenovo (or until IBM makes a PowerPad).

--

This sig. is emulated in hw.

ThinkPads no more

[bfwebster]

I've also been a dedicated ThinkPad user since 2000 or so. I've owned three, all X-series to cut down on the weight of dragging my laptop around and to allow me to actually get work done in coach class. However, unlike some of the other posters here, I have had some mechanical problems with the ThinkPads; I've had to replace keyboards on two of them, the screen hinges on my current one (#3, have had it 2-3 years at least) are loosening, and the screen frame itself has popped a rivet. Beyond that, I have found in the last year or two that more and more when I travel on business that what I really need is a portable desktop system, i.e., lots of memory, lots of disk space, lots of processor power, and a large screen. This, of course, is mostly the antithesis of the ThinkPad X series. Beyond that, I've just been a little bit leery of how well quality has been maintained in the IBM -> Lenovo transition.

I did buy such a "portable desktop" laptop this week: a Fujitsu Lifebook N6410. Dual core T2400 @ 1.83 GHz, 2GB RAM (upgraded myself from 512KB), 80 GB hard drive + second hard drive bay (uses SATA laptop drives; be warned that it doesn't come with the bracing frame for the 2nd hard drive; I'm still working on that), full size keyboard + numeric pad, 17" display, stereo speakers + subwoofer, 256MB nVidia graphics (128MB dedicated/128MB shared), lots of ports, DVD-write drive, etc. Size of a boat anchor, weighs a ton, only lasts about 2 hours on battery, so it's definitely not my light, lithe ThinkPad X41, but it's right up there with all my desktop systems, and it's definitely easier than packing one of my Shuttles + a flat screen in a suitcase (which I've done before).

I'll see after a few trips whether and how much I miss my ThinkPad.

By the way, if you're looking at high-end laptops like this, avoid the Toshiba Satellite P105. I bought one earlier this week from Best Buy (the P105-S9312, w/2GB of RAM and a 200 GB hard drive), got it home, and promptly ran into problems: slow, flaky performance, occasional kernel faults, etc. I let it run all night and in the morning found it had powered itself down. When I powered it up, it went through three different kernel faults during bootup, rebooting each time, then finally got itself into WinXP--only to start reporting problems with previously working software. I tried four (4) times to do a system restore using the system restore disc--and had it fail each time. When I took it back to Best Buy to get my money back, I found that someone else had come in that same morning to exchange the same model. Not a good sign of high quality assurance. YMMV. ..bruce..

Re:ThinkPads no more

[KozmoStevnNaut]

Can I have your X41? :-P

Re:ThinkPads no more

[ces]

I did buy such a "portable desktop" laptop this week: a Fujitsu Lifebook N6410. Dual core T2400 @ 1.83 GHz, 2GB RAM (upgraded myself from 512KB), 80 GB hard drive + second hard drive bay (uses SATA laptop drives; be warned that it doesn't come with the bracing frame for the 2nd hard drive; I'm still working on that), full size keyboard + numeric pad, 17" display, stereo speakers + subwoofer, 256MB nVidia graphics (128MB dedicated/128MB shared), lots of ports, DVD-write drive, etc. Size of a boat anchor, weighs a ton, only lasts about 2 hours on battery, so it's definitely not my light, lithe ThinkPad X41, but it's right up there with all my desktop systems, and it's definitely easier than packing one of my Shuttles + a flat screen in a suitcase (which I've done before).

I'm really supprised you went with a giant brick like this. A Thinkpad Z or T series would likely do everything your Fujitsu does but while being more compact, weighing less, and having longer battery life. A further benefit is the Thinkpad keyboards are actually better than most modern desktop keyboards and they have the only touchpads in the industry other than Apple's that I don't find completely maddening.

To me a high-end desktop replacement laptop would be a Z61p or T60p not the Fujitsu or Toshiba models you mention.

Re:ThinkPads no more

[bfwebster]

Can I have your X-41?

:-) Fair enough question. Regretably, I have a few (adult) kids in line ahead of you. ..bruce..

Re:ThinkPads no more

[WuphonsReach]

Satellites are junk (always have been), they're the consumer level line.

For desktop replacement, my preference is still either a Toshiba Tecra M3 (not a tablet) or the Thinkpad T60/T60p line. Get the 1400x1050 display and a dual-core CPU, 2GB of RAM and you've got a 6-8 year machine. The 17" display doesn't cut it in my book, I'd rather attach a secondary display positioned beside or above my 14"/15" laptop screen.

Possibly the 13" MacBook or the slightly larger 15" MacBooks...

(Hell, I'm typing this on a 4.5 year old Tecra 9100. Which is a slow and hot Pentium 4 M 1.8GHz w/ 1GB of RAM and a 1400x1050 display. Replaced the keyboard, mouse buttons, hard drive... twice... and the DVD/CD over the past few years. Next year I'll replace the backlight and finally hand it off to a less demanding user. I'm sure it needs a new battery as well, but I'm always connected in various locations. I've used the machine about 12 hours per day, 6 days per week. I keep saying that I'm going to upgrade, but now I'm probably going to wait for the Core2's and being able to get 4GB of RAM installed from the outset.)

How is this "rethinking"?

[Mealua]

Where does "rethinking" in the title come from. From the following quotes fromt TFA it seems clear to me, that the X60 is "business as usual" as far as thinkpads are concerned: an upmarket, slimline, high performance notepad in an understated black frame with a red trackpoint.

the original point- one constant which has remained throughout the evolution of the notebook computer is the Thinkpad.

Looking at the Thinkpad X60s we can see that this laptop is clearly tailored to executives and business users.

Rather than having a trackpad the X60s uses a one of IBM's signature red pointing sticks.

Despite the long and respected history of the Thinkpad, there is a lot of competition in the ultraportable market...the X60s remains to be a very desirable computer and a great pick.

This will probably get me labeled

[CaptainZapp]

an eco-terrorist, if not modded into the realms of hell and then back.

But Lenovos abyssimal behavior regarding their ecological responsibilty renders them a company which just wound up on my eternal shitlist of companies from which I never ever buy anything.

Lenovo, say hi to the likes of Sony and Air France.

Slashdot covered this recently.

Re:This will probably get me labeled

[Viceice]

Personally, any arguement that quotes Greenpeace as a refrence instantly loses all credibility with me.

Re:This will probably get me labeled

[darkwhite]

Aside from the fact that Greenpeace is an unreasonable organization to begin with, this study is a measure of how much money the companies on the list put into "green PR", not of how environmentally friendly their manufacturing processes really are. Their measures are really laughable, and most of their information is quite obviously gathered from the manufacturers' and contractors' websites and press materials. Just because a random Chinese company decided to slap a page on their English website about how they comply with RoHS and have an "environmental roadmap" and another one has nothing but spec sheets on their homepage says nothing about their environmental impact. Every single one of their measures is problematic, if not in principle, then in the reality of how they gathered the data and what real-world impact it has.

This study is worthless for the purpose of fairly judging companies on their environmental policies, and I speak this as a committed environmentalist.

Re:This will probably get me labeled

[CaptainZapp]

Aside from the fact that Greenpeace is an unreasonable organization to begin with

That's certainly a matter of opinion. Could you point out a specific Greenpeace study, which is based on hyperbole, bent statistics and lies? I thought not.

this study is a measure of how much money the companies on the list put into "green PR"

You quite obviously didn't read through the studys criteria (you can download the criteria as a pdf via a link on the page). Granted, I'm not a scientist, and the fact how important it is to the environment that PVC and BFRs are phased out of the production process better yesterday then today can't be judged by me. But giving Greenpeace' visibility and the fact that a lot of smart people will look at this and disect it mercylessly gives it some credibility; at least in my book.

Just because a random Chinese company decided to slap a page on their English website about how they comply with RoHS and have an "environmental roadmap" and another one has nothing but spec sheets on their homepage says nothing about their environmental impact.

As a matter of fact the study (again, pdf link) contains tons of links to the pr fluff of the companies in question. From my understanding the study is either based on data released, or in the case of rodamps and commitments not released by the companies.

You may hate Greenpeace as an organization, but your arguments to debunk the study sound rather hollow.

Re:This will probably get me labeled

[darkwhite]

That's certainly a matter of opinion. Could you point out a specific Greenpeace study, which is based on hyperbole, bent statistics and lies? I thought not.

Let's see:
-Everything they put out related to their anti-GM foods campaign
-Most of their anti-WTO rhetoric

There are many environmental crises (rainforest logging, overfishing, other habitat destruction, global warming) which deserve everyone's attention. But because Greenpeace has consistently demonstrated hypocrisy and useless posturing on other issues, its involvement too often threatens the credibility of people who really do care about and understand these problems.

You quite obviously didn't read through the studys criteria (you can download the criteria as a pdf via a link on the page). ... As a matter of fact the study (again, pdf link) contains tons of links to the pr fluff of the companies in question. From my understanding the study is either based on data released, or in the case of rodamps and commitments not released by the companies.

Do you realize just how much you discredit your own argument by linking to these? Of course I've read both of these documents. They're almost 100% bullshit. They cite NO SOURCES, scientific or otherwise. They do not define testing methodology. For no measure do they cite whether they conducted in-house tests, independent tests, used third-party data, manufacturer technical data, or manufacturer PR. None of the measures are explained quantitatively in terms of what they mean for the environment. Links from the tables are directly and exclusively to either company PR (not even contractor PR - and contractors are the ones damaging the environment here) or environmental regulations without any context. In short, these documents - the only two available on the website that provide any level of detail for the study - betray an unresearched, uneducated, hackish study made by people unqualified to do anything of the sort and concerned with PR for their organization only. This is NOT OK for an environmental organization.

There are real ways to judge companies for environmental impact, but if you think Greenpeace's study is anywhere close to doing it properly, you're sadly mistaken. It's a lot harder, and probably beyond Greenpeace's dedication, to trace the environmental impact of the full manufacturing chain of a single electronics component, and to differentiate these chains between companies. It's not as hard to evaluate the companies' policies on complete products - like post-consumer recycling, packaging, support, etc. - but I doubt these contribute much.

I won't go into what a proper study would have to do and what kind of evidence they'd have to supply because this would take a few pages, but its executive summary would look very different from the Greenpeace fluff you linked.

You may hate Greenpeace as an organization, but your arguments to debunk the study sound rather hollow.

"I let no man drag me down so low as to make me hate him." - Booker T. Washington

Greenpeace is an organization staffed by well-meaning people who, through lack of willingness to thoroughly understand the relative importance of environmental issues, or just lack of critical and independent thinking, are engaging in things which do little to help the environment but a lot to antagonize people who are even less educated or rational - or who want to justify their excesses - and whose number is a lot greater. The end effect is a lot of added irrational antipathy toward environmentalism as a whole.

You want to see true environmentalists? Come to any university biology department, or any number of other organizations staffed by people who work directly with nature. These people may have to cut trees, kill primates, poison lab mice, pin hundreds of insects, conduct surveys which may look destructive to you but really aren't, but by and large these are the people who truly know and care for their environment and do what they can to stop the mindless destruction others do to their environment every day without even knowing.

Re:This will probably get me labeled

[Anonymous Coward]

Really! An argument loses all credibility with you personally?

I can see why such an incisive thinker would want to immediately reject any argument that references Greenpeace.

ThinkPad Forever

[Billnvd65]

I have dealt with a ton of laptops but the only ones that seem to last forever are the thinkpads. I am typing this on a 380z. Yep, pII 300, 96 meg O ram, 4 gig HD. Add a stripped down linux install and you are good to go. I use this thing for network admin, remote X seesions, daily mail and web. It just works. Battery life is pretty much gone, but it lasts long enough to ssh into several computers to initiate shutdown after a power failure.

Thinkpads are well built, durable, reliable and I think they look stylish in thier own way. Sometimes understated design is better than all that plastic crap that gets thrown on laptops like the satelites and the viaos.

We have three thinkpads: My baby, the 380z, my wifes, t23(loaded) and a backup 600.

thick, thin, heavy, lite, square, rounded, BUT always black!

Original iBook

[CdBee]

My 2000 iBook 366mhz is exactly what you need. ABS+rubber casing, up to 576mb RAM, G3 CPU - just works and droppable without incident. 6hrs battery life with Airport switched off and a new battery.

fingerprint reader useful?

[vinsci]

What good is a fingerprint reader, when your fingerprints are all over the laptop? Dust, copy, spoof, login.

Re:fingerprint reader useful?

[jlramirez]

Dust, copy, spoof, login.

But does the spoofing method work with the swipe-scanners that Thinkpads use?

Trackpad v Trackpoint

[daviddennis]

I prefer the TrackPoint by a significant margin. Right now, I'm using my Apple Powerbook and have a ThinkPad to do Windows testing, and the one thing I prefer on the ThinkPad is that TrackPoint. I can really zip around the screen with commendable efficiency, far more than with the trackpad on the PowerBook.

This really is something accoring to taste. I wish I could get a trackpoint-style mouse for the PowerBook. However, it's certainly not an issue that will switch me to a non-Apple OS :-).

I'd recommend that anyone who has the choice check out both pointer movement systems because it's obvious that people have very strong preferences for one or the other.

D

I don't know where people get their ideas

[oyenstikker]

I don't know where people ge their ideas about thinkpads. Must be the commercials. We have been using Thinkpads in our office for years. Blown backlights, flimsy keyboards, quickly degrading batteries, and persistent annoying electronic noises the norm. And IBM/Lenovo's customer support is terrible. Nobody knows the answer to anything, and if it might be possibly software related (there are funny black lines on my monitor once Windows boots, please send me a damn installer CD that will work on this laptop*), they tell you to call Microsoft and hang up on you.

* I have a T43. It comes with a recovery partition. You can order a DVD that will restore the factory setting. If you want multiple partitions, you are out of luck. They tell you to go buy a new copy of Windows. The retail Windows XP Professional CD does not work. I don't know if its the display or the SATA-PATA bridge, but after it start inspecting your hardware, you get a black screen and thats it. MS blames IBM. IBM blames MS.

Re:I don't know where people get their ideas

[dreamlax]

If your office treats their hardware like that, perhaps they should be taught a lesson in laptop etiquette. Blown backlights are often the case of sudden downward force on the casing (i.e. perhaps sitting on the laptop). Flimsy keyboards usually come from either excessive force when typing or physical twisting of the entire laptop. Quickly degrading batteries come from using the laptop's battery for five minutes and putting it back on charge, and then using it for five minutes again. I have no idea where your electronic noises come from, but my T23 sounds just fine.

If you want a laptop that won't break, buy a Panasonic Toughbook. Their top model can withstand a drop from over a metre onto concrete without turning off (or breaking), and they will work at sub-zero temperatures thanks to the in-built hardware heater.

Seriously, don't argue that the Corolla (or AK47) of laptops isn't rugged enough for you, with anything there is a way to look after it. Laptops aren't meant to be abused (perhaps the Toughbook is an exception) so provided everything is used right, it will be like my T23; minor scratches, but a battery that still holds two hours of charge (with the backlight dimmed) after some 4 or 5 years of use, a backlight and LCD that still work perfectly, and a keyboard that is not flimsy! If I can have a Thinkpad this long, why can't you?

Re:I don't know where people get their ideas

[Vendekkai]

Well, my mileage varies.

I have been phasing out the hotchpotch of laptops that my org uses, and replacing them with Thinkpads. Except for the CEO, who wants only Sony.

I agree that the T40 onwards, including the LeNovo T43, aren't as good as the old T20s. I still use a couple of old T20s that I bought from the office for peanuts at home - they're rock solid. The later Tseries have had the odd hardware failure requiring warranty service - which has been prompt and knowledgeable.

As part of our software install process, we reformat the hard disk to remove the recovery partition, and install XP Pro with our own installer CD that has the IBM drivers on it (and our required software packages). And XP absolutely doesn't "black" screen on install.

V

Thinkpad repair

[diseasesofseamen]

I did basic hardware repair on thousands of Thinkpads around '03-'04, mostly T21, T22, T23, T30s, and 40/41s, as well as the X series, 20-30-40, and some of big yet delicate A20s and A30s, as well as some models I've forgotten the names of. My favorites are the old T2x, and the X20's. But I have a hard time viewing them as durable, as all the ones I ever saw were screwed up in some way. All the models have their stress points where the plastic always gives, and none took spill damage well. A lot of it was just wanton customer abuse, of course. Still, I saw several T-series come in after getting backed over by a truck and still boot. They weren't my favorite jobs, though.

Examine the facts behind the Greenpeace report

[DECS]

While the Greenpeace "Guide to Greener Electronics" was swallowed whole by the media, it is actually a sham report with little factual basis. In reality, it presents rankings upside down: Lenovo's higher quality business products are more likely to get recycled (and simply last longer), but because the company didn't have a lot of PR about it on their website, they were ranked last. The report also targeted Apple (3rd from the bottom), which is recognized by the Sierra Club in its top ten list of Green companies.

However, Greenpeace cheers for HP and Dell, who generate far more e-waste than any other PC makers. They churn out disposable, cheap PCs with short life spans, often using far more toxic CRT displays to hit the low price target. HP was rated good on "Chemical Management," despite missing their goals last year. Meanwhile, Apple was rated "partially bad" for not having as many published goals, when in reality they had already banned use of those toxics, including Hexavalent Chromium and others.

If you like facts, here are more examples of how the Greenpeace report was misleading and incompetent.

It's really too bad the Greenpeace report was thrown around without any criticism from the mainstream media or even from bloggers. Even Slashdot refused to cover it. Everyone is afraid to say anything about Greenpeace, but ignoring their misleading and irresponsible report on the grounds that it's politically incorrect to critique anything calling itself "Green," actually waters down the efforts of real environmentalists and those interested in forwarding the state of the art in clean and responsible business and manufacturing.

Incidentally, the Greenpeace report was written by a SVTC member. That's the group that targeted Apple last year in a campaign against the iPod, saying that people would throw their iPods away when the battery ran down. More about the Toxic Trash campaign on Apple

Ugh... where's the RETURN key?

[curious.corn]

I mean is that a RETURN or a CAPS LOCK? No, no... one thing TP are king is the keyboard and two keys are king on the keyboard: space and the mighty Return. This wheezy blue thing, pale resemblance of the original IBM keyboard is something for HP laptops, not a TP. They pissed on the jewelry...

UltraNAV

[Junta]

UltraNAV has been moderately useful for me, I used synclient to make the 'edges' take up the entire area and enabled circular scrolling, so I have an iPod like scroller to complement my trackpoint.

Trackpoint is perfect for the lazy, don't move my hands from the homerow to move the mouse or click. It's a little bit of a reach to scroll with the touchpad, but it is easier than using cursor keys or pgup/pgdown.

Still, I get really annoyed at the concept of the touchpad being the de-facto pointing device standard in laptops:
-As the x-series demonstrates, touchpad takes up a lot of real-estate and makes it hard to do an ultra-portable
-No tactile feedback, with trackpoint it exerts pressure and you have a more solid feel of tracking the cursor movement, whereas a touchpad you just glide over.
-My hands have never ever accidentally manipulated a trackpoint. I run syndaemon to keep the touchpad disabled while typing, and disable everything but scrolling now, so it's not a big deal now (won't move or click the cursor even if I somehow typed really slowly and my wrist hits it), but the fact I have to do so much to make it not annoying is a bad sign.
-I don't have to lift my fingers to continue mouse movement in a direction when I reach an edge, like in a touchpad.

Trackpoint is great, hardly legacy.

[Junta]

I even got a keyboard for my workstation with a trackpoint because it appeals so much to me.

The positioning is perfect, the trackpoint is right there along the home row and the buttons are right next to my thumbs when touch typing. Before the trackpoint I hated any activity that involved alternating mouse and keyboard activity because I would have to drastically move my hand to the mouse or touchpad to use that, then move my hand back to the keyboard. The same crowd that desperately looks for keyboard shortcuts in applications ought to appreciate the trackpoint. I don't have to significantly alter my hand position to manipulate the pointer versus type. For games and similar mouse activity, only a mouse or trackball will do, but for day to day pointer manipulation, I'll take a trackpoint over a mouse or touchpad any day.

I will say...

[Junta]

I have worked for companies with exclusive Compaq, Dell, and IBM deals and more or less they are all the same. Drives go on occasion in every one, I think I happened to see Dell have the most backlight failures (ironic, as the company with Dell was the smallest company with the fewest number of laptops, and I worked there fairly short term, and even the raw number of failures exceeds what I saw in compaq and thinkpads. I have seen one thinkpad backlight go. Li-ion batteries always degrade no matter who the vendor is, expect at least anual replacement if you want it to maintain more than 30% charge consistantly.

The whole recovery system is annoying, and par for the course nowadays, but I always wipe the drive and use linux anyway, so I don't miss the Windows media.

It also depends on the model maybe, I really like my current thinkpad, it has excellent viewing angle (so-called 'flexview' display, but I've seen a lot more thinkpads with typically crappy laptop screens.

X60s actually

[hawaiian717]

The review is of the X60s, not the X60 as the article summary implies. Subtle difference in name but as the article notes they are different models. X60 replaces the X31 and X60s replaces the X41.

Of course, nobody around here expects the summary to be correct. ;)

The one constant?

[dangitman]

One constant which has remained throughout the evolution of the notebook computer is the Thinkpad

How is this possible? The Thinkpad was not released until 1992. The Powerbook 100 came out in 1991, and the Mac Portable in 1989. Other companies made predecessors, but were a bit too large to be considered "notebooks" but rather laptops or portable computers.

Uhm, am I really the only one who cares....

[calice]

Am I really the only one who cares about the fact that Lenovo is a company that is essentially owned by the Chinese Government? They make some damned fine computers, yes, but I'm just not willing to fork over my money to fund a communist regime. It just seems silly to me, let's fund the country that is on the precipice of becoming the next communist superpower. Sweet.

Re:Uhm, am I really the only one who cares....

[John Miles]

It just seems silly to me, let's fund the country that is on the precipice of becoming the next communist superpower. Sweet.

That's one way to think of it, but another argument is that the best way to fight Communism is to encourage the country to participate in the global economy. Trying to isolate a Communist regime has never worked in any case I can think of. Nor does bombarding them with empty capitalistic propaganda.

Where's the upside for the US in treating China like Cuba or North Korea? Communist party bosses respond to those pressures by digging in their heels and living like czars as usual, while the people suffer all of the drawbacks of living in a pariah state.

Re:Uhm, am I really the only one who cares....

[Anonymous Coward]

You want to fund that communist regime. They own the US national debt. If they get pissed off, or go broke, bye bye US economy. The chinese communists have the US by the balls. If you don't believe me, look it up. Then wonder why the Neocons have you all worked up about Iran, Syria etc.

Re:Uhm, am I really the only one who cares....

[LostInTaiwan]

I'm the second person who cares. Typing away on my Mexican made T22 , everything except the CPU has been replaced either under warranty or from parts found on ebay. The replacement 1400x1050 screen I found on ebay is great and Debian gave new life to the T22. I like the newer T series but could never get over the fact that they were being assembled in China. Now that thinkpad is owned by Lenovo I long longer agonized over wanting to buy a new thinkpad. For a while the Powerbook was a alternative candidate but the newer Apple laptops are also made in China. I don't agree with the US foreign policy on either Cuba or North Korea, but China is neither. Years of economical growth has not encouraged democracy as we have hoped. Rather, economic growth was used to pacify the few who are most likely to speak out while the masses are silenced. I doubt if most college grads in China remember Tienanmen or even care. . . . and whatever happened to the free Tibet movement. . . . Donno, when the T22 dies maybe I'll switch over to Sony or Asus. . . . but definitely not a Levono . . . . no thanks, I rather not fund the future ICMB what will be aimed at me.

Wow - you bring back memories..

[cheros]

I once was an area tech support guy for what can be reasonably be considered the first PDA, the Psion Organiser II (if you look long enough you'll still find some of my code hiding on the Net :-). I was helping a local dealer at some show, and at the end of two long days we got bored, and used one of the demo machines for a 10 minute football match. Don't ask me how we came up with that idea, but boredom does strange things to me :-).

I'm talking stock standard 'out-of-the-box' vanilla hardware here - no fancy protective rubber covers as sold on that same show - just bare plastic. Mind you, that thing was constructed like a brick. I've seen it run over by cars and if the sleeve was closed it stood a good chance of surviving.

After that match the thing still happily showed the demo through a now rather scratched plexi window (I think it was one of the earliest versions, with 2x16 character display). We then strolled over to one of the stands with 'industrialised' versions (read: heavier and a lot more expensive) and dared them to 'sponsor' a unit for the next match. Tactical mistake: they refused in front of by now a rather large audience.

Result: we burned so fast through our stock of machines we had to start taking orders and ring the UK manufacturer to urgently ship more.. It was a neat little machine (6303 8-bit processor) and I still have two of the later 4 line versions, with 512k flash, barcode reader, swipe card reader and caliper peripherals (the latter I had to design myself for a car quality control project :-).

You know, I don't think I'd be able to bring myself to do that with a Thinkpad :-).

my mini-review of the "series"

[Superfarstucker]

I've got an older X series notebook (x40). I think they're nice, given them a good word a time or two here. There are certainly limitations though. The screen, for one. When I'm at home I've got 4800 pixels worth of horizontal space on my desk and 1200 vertical. At school, 1024x768 can be quite painful, although I don't think it really hampers my productivity. It certainly isn't comfortable to make use of in many situations, fortunately I don't do anything where a lavish excess of screen real estate is a requirement. The keyboards is great, has a nice feel to it for a notebook.

I can't say much about the reliability, I had a disk drive fail, thankfully I sync all my data with my home machine, but a replacement was sent overnight as soon as I reported the problem (and this is after Lenovo bought the pc business, IBM still carries out the remaining support contracts AFAIK). Cosmetically it has suffered some very minor damage and I haven't treated it very nicely. It gets tossed in my bag next to a stack of books that would kill my cat.

The price on these machines new make Apple notebooks look kind of cheap, and honestly the portability is nothing more than a supreme convenience. It is nice to be able to wake up in the morning and pull your notebook out of the dock, and walk out the door with your bagel. You're not tied to a wall, I typically get about 5 hours of real usage out of the battery which is more than enough for me. Given it is relatively underpowered and has no screen real estate to speak of, however, the product line is an exercise in compromise. If I was doing a 9-5 I think I would manage with a 15" or even maybe a 17" notebook, if I needed one at all.

Hate them

[ajv]

I've had T22 since 2002, and now a T42 since November last year.

I hate these things. They suck in every way, and they're much more expensive than a far, far more capable Macbook Pro.

I hate the nipple. I've removed it, but it still sticks there, like a stupid nipple thing in the middle of my home row. The keyboard is excellent otherwise. If you could order a Stinkpad without the nipple and the three additional useless buttons, I'd be partially on the way to liking the damn thing. Except it has no Windows key. IBM's solution? You can download some key remapping software from them and make the right alt key your windows key. No! I want a Windows key. In the right position. I press FN about half a dozen times a day when I'm on the road because FN is in the WRONG position. FN is used about once every chicken sacrifice, so it should be up near "Access IBM".

The ATI drivers drive me nuts. They're slow and crappy. I had to download a presentation tray doohickey from IBM to allow it to dual screen properly between the various combos I have (docking - DVI, non-docking VGA out), setup a profile for each location... and here's the kicker - I have to change it to that profile manually - it is TOO stupid to do it by itself even though the special driver software sucks RAM like no tomorrow. If I can - often you can't see the display it thinks you're still using. On my Mac - you just plug the damn thing in and it does it for you. It even remembers LCD projectors and puts up a nice safe background - automatically.

The DVD burner is a joke. I'm pretty sure it's connected to the system by unreliable wet string technology. You can't eject the DVD drive from the drive bay if you boot with it. Not that I have the floppy drive to stick in the bay, but you know, it does have an eject button and it SHOULD work.

The laden weight when you're on the road is well over 3 kg, which is unacceptable when you've only got 8 kg in cabin baggage allowance. My Mac and its adapter weighs in at just under 3 kg.

Sleeping the computer is an exercise in gambling with my data. I don't trust it. Not only does it not manage to get to sleep, often it fails to wake up, just blinks.

Tried running Vista? No. No network support, and ATI's crappy chipset doesn't work. There are five year old Linux distros that can run better than the next version of Windows. I shudder to think what will happen when they come around and try to re-image us with Vista in a few months time.

To top it off, I blinked when I saw the invoice price from IBM. We have a "special" deal with IBM. They rip out Bluetooth and wireless, put in a 40 GB drive (I didn't know they still made them that small) and charge us an additional $4k for these "special" features. I could have bought two Macbook Pros and a lovely 23" widescreen monitor for the price work paid for this single, crappy laptop.

Ecchi comments about the TrackPoint...

[MsGeek]

Wow, someone needs to get laid around here don't they? Slashdot...the sound of a million hands fapping.

Clamshell!!!

[MsGeek]

It takes a knockin' and keeps on rockin'. Blueberry Clamshell 300MHz...it's been around the world with its original owner (my aunt) and has lived to tell the tale. Very happily running Panther like a champ. The stupid Yo-Yo power supply is misbehaving now but everyone knows that was a real design botch. Yeah, it's not the most masculine lappie on the planet. However, it's not as bad as the pink lappies that some of the PC makers are starting to put out "for the girls."

Between my Clamshell and my ThinkPad 600x I am in laptop heaven. Once the bugs are worked out of the MacBook that's probably what I'll be getting next.

PowerPad: They did exist...

[MsGeek]

I'll wait until I see some good stuff from Lenovo (or until IBM makes a PowerPad).

Umm...IBM DID make PowerPC ThinkPads. However, you cannot run Mac OS on one of these babies. It's strictly AIX, OS/2 and an ancient version of Windows NT. Oh, and Linux may or may not work. Insufficient info after Google search...anyone know about this?

Re:PowerPad: They did exist...

[Hymer]

UPS... I have forgotten them... and they need a younger brother...
I do not want to run OS X, I have a PowerBook for that... I was thinking 'bout running Linux on the Power ThinkPad.

how install XP Pro (corporate) without floppy?

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you install Windows XP Pro in a corprate environment without a floppy drive on teh X60s?
I've contacted IBM about this and I'll I have received the response, as long as there is a FAT or NTFS partition on it it will be visible to the XP installer.
That sounded dumb to me as , what happens if the HD is replaced with a fresh one.
Well, the machine has a partition on it. So according to IBM's instructions it should be visible, which is bullshit.
Win XP Pro SP1 installer CD says NO HD. And try to grab the drivers from A: when you don't have a floppy.

Suggestions ?

Re:how install XP Pro (corporate) without floppy?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Windows installer can see partitions of any type such as Linux installs as well as unpartitioned space and unformatted drives. Sounds like the installer just doesn't have the right drivers, so you'll need to get either a more recent version of Windows (SP2 maybe?) or get USB floppy drive and the correct drivers. But the X60s have a hidden "restore" partition that should be able to reinstall Windows if that's all you need to do, you can access it through the BIOS I think.

Re:how install XP Pro (corporate) without floppy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't want all IBM crap installed, thus a clean XP pro, bind it to AD, apply corporate security stuff and put it in the users hands fully configured by corporate IT, not IBM-put-all-shit-in-which-will-confuse-users install and make-your-corporate-IT-staff-live-in-pain.

Re:how install XP Pro (corporate) without floppy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well now it's tested, XP Pro SP2 doesn't help :/

nothing new here

[crashelite]

sorry but my thinkpad A31p is about the same as this nothing big... there are still air inlets on the bottom what means it will still burn the crap outta you no matter what if it is on ur lap... also if its not on hard surface ur screwed... APPLE has not had that problem with ANY of their portable computers they all have air inlets on side and exhaust on back or sides. if you want to waist ur time and correct my grammar i dont care :p waist ur time... or go become a teacher in highschool...

Re:nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

i am a teacher in a high skool, u inzenzitive clodh!

AFAIK theres nuttin' wrong with ur grammer whatsoever, at least there are no waisted letters anywhere.

Re:IBM Ugly -- Love the Trackpoint

[page0]

I also prefer the Trackpoint (aka "eraser head"). Probably because I had a thinkpad before ever having a mouse and, as you mentioned, being loath to move my hand on and off the keyboard (or on and off the mouse).

I also had a Toshiba Satellite for home use for many years ... not only a Trackpoint, but similar build quality, documentation and support.

X60 is a real laptop

[fuzzel]

It's light (~1.5kg), has loads of battery time (~6+ most of the time), it's smaller than a4 (except a bit thicker ;)

Only "disadvantage": no DVI output

For the rest it is perfect and I am loving mine :)

prior thinkpad experience would have helped

[jdowland]

This was an interesting review, but if the reviewer had some prior experience of Thinkpads it would have been better. I twitched to read about Lenovo's innovative nipple-pointer and comfortable-yet-compact keyboard, plus the battery, dock, etc.: it read just like a review of my X40. Those aspects of it do not appear to have changed from the IBM era.

external screen capabilities

[tychoS]

Is there a recent Thinkpad that can drive todays external monitors with any kind of acceptable quality?

If the answer is yes, is it one of those fully laden models costing 3x times the price of the bare bones configuration?

I have a T40. It is unable to display a sharp picture free from shadows and other artifacts at any resolution above 1280x1024. That's really disappointing and prevents me from using the thinkpad as a desktop replacement. I know a handfull of people with T4[012] laptops. All their thinkpads are equally underperforming in this area. One of them works for IBM and took the issue up with internal IT and was told that this is just the way these machines are.

I am typing this on a Dell D620 laptop that drives two TFT screens in a dual monitor setup. One is 1280x1024 the other 1600x1200. The image is sharp and artifact free on both monitors.

Re:external screen capabilities

[Anonymous Coward]

I just got a T43 at my new job. The builtin VESA VGA port sucks, but the DVI port in the dock can drive the LCD on my desk to 1920x1200.

Squee?

[Oshkoshjohn]

Is this a JTHM joke?

moving parts?

[RichiH]

Trackpoints don't have any moving parts, either. They are using the piezo effect (clickie here). This also means they need to realign on each startup, but at least on the Thinkpads, you can do that per software, too. Yes, both Linux and Windows.