TiVo Announces High-Def Series3 DVR

prostoalex writes "Catching up with the competition, TiVo is set to unveil a high-definition digital video recorder. The unit will feature dual tuners, 250 GB, and a hefty price sticker: 'The long-awaited product will be $800 and available in mid-September, the company said. Subscription fees for the TiVo service are separate ... TiVo officials attributed its long development time in part to waiting for certain technologies to mature and the lengthy process of getting industry-related approvals, such as for the set-top-box's two built-in CableCARD slots. CableCARD slots allow users to access digital programming from a cable TV provider without the need for a separate receiver. The Series3 HD box also represents TiVo's first major product upgrade since it released its networked Series2 DVR in 2002.'"

Comments

800$ plus subscription??

[pieinthesky]

Ha ha hahahahahaha - it better come with a lump of gold bullion...

Re:800$ plus subscription??

[Golias]

No kidding.

If you want to record Hi-Def shows, you can buy a Mac mini + EyeTV + extra RAM for a total of about $1000, that will also take the place of the DVD player, and also serve up on-line content (both legitimate and otherwise) AND be a nice jukebox for the living room stereo. Not to mention suck your life and soul away with World of Warcraft (or some Windows games, if you are willing to dual boot and live with Intel's integrated graphics.)

And that's buying Apple hardware which we all know is waaaaaaay overpriced, right?

$800 for a computer which can't do anything but record TV shows? That's just sad.

Re:800$ plus subscription??

[kalidasa]

EyeTV Hybrid cannot record cable HDTV, period; only over air (don't believe me? read the FAQ). The CableCard provides not only unencrypted cable HDTV channels, but even encrypted channels. I use my EyeTV on my PowerMac as an adjunct to my TiVo, but don't consider it a replacement.

Re:800$ plus subscription??

[ArikTheRed]

Actually, you can do a lot with TiVo hardware: http://tivohme.sourceforge.net/

Re:800$ plus subscription??

[IvanD]

Uhm.. I guess if I want to record Hi-Def shows, I better look forward to take my Yagi once for all from my house roof, and start paying for cable, TiVo and Subscription... Life was so easy when dad said... "move the antenna!.. a bit more.. that's it.. leave it there!.. Arrgh.. signal went bad again... hold it!"

Re:800$ plus subscription??

[Golias]

Why would I want cable HDTV when over-the-air HDTV is Free (as in beer)???

Re:800$ plus subscription??

[krakelohm]

How many channels do you get of Other the air HD versus Cable?

Re:800$ plus subscription??

[Golias]

I get just over 20 (with four of them being low-res duplicates most of the time, admitedly).

However, I only watch one at a time. How many do you watch at once on cable?

Last time I had cable was when I was a college student, but from what I've seen at other people's homes, it's gone from "50 channels and noting on" to "400 channels and nothing on" in the last thirty years.

The consistant truth is that there are usually only a half dozen shows on TV in any given year worth even considering worth your time. The rest of it is all just a means of uselessly idling when nothing better is going on in your life, and we've got the Internet for that now.

Re:800$ plus subscription??

[cayenne8]

One other piece of info. I've got an older Series2 with lifetime sub.

Just got email from Tivo saying if I buy a new HD Tivo, for $199 they'll transfer my lifetime sub to the new HD unit. Offer appears to be good for purchases of new HD unit through 12/31/2006, and you must activate new service by 01/31/2006.

They will also allow your older Tivo to work no charge for service for 12 mos, after which you can deactivate it, or pay monthly on it.

I might do this....just to have HD content going while the issues for MythTV and encrypted HD content on cable is 'worked' on...

Re:800$ plus subscription??

[sdriver]

Why would I want cable HDTV when over-the-air HDTV is Free (as in beer)???

HBO? Cinemax? Discover? INHD? FOX Sports? There is a huge list of premium HD content.

None of those are over the air.

Re:800$ plus subscription??

[krakelohm]

I agree with you 100% that most of it is crap. The problem is that you cannot get the good channels over the air (discovery;discovery science;HBO...)

Re:800$ plus subscription??

[Golias]

None of those are free, either. PBS, ABC, NBC, FOX, CBS, all of those have a huge list of HD content as well, and they are FREE.

(In fact, my computer just got done recording tonight's "House" as I write this.)

HBO has, on average, on show worth watching, and it's usually not worth paying HBO premiums (above and beyond basic cable) for. I Netflix, borrow (or buy, if I find cheap used copies) the DVDs, or download rips for that *one* show which I care about (used to be The Sopranos, now it's The Wire), which still look damn good.

Discover is mostly documentary stuff. I get enough of that from PBS-HD and the 5 other digital channels my local PBS station broadcasts in my market. All free.

INHD? Wuzzat?

FOX Sports would be nice, but not really worth a monthly fee to me. If I want to watch sports, I'd find it more fun to go out to a sports bar and watching with a crowd over greasy food and beer. If it's a big "event" sports game that I would want to host a party to view, such as the Superbowl or the NCAA championship, it's already FREE FREE FREE on my home TV set.

As for Comedy Central shows like "The Daily Show" and "The Colbert Report"... all their really funny bits end up on YouTube eventually anyway.

Thanks to usenet, I'm even watching new Doctor Who episodes a full year before people with the Sci-Fi Channel and a TiVo are watching it, and it looks about as good as their picture does once they set their compression to a level where it can store as much stuff as they want to see.

Like I said, paying for cable is something that only people who can't get a signal need to bother with. I'm getting as much TV as I really want.

Re:800$ plus subscription??

[MojoStan]

If you want to record Hi-Def shows, you can buy a Mac mini + EyeTV + extra RAM for a total of about $1000

Is 160GB (largest hard drive available, add $250 to the base model) enough space to record Hi-Def shows and use the Mac mini for other tasks? If HDTV takes up about 8GB per hour, then I'd want a lot more space than that. I think I'd add a high-capacity external 3.5" hard drive to the Mac mini and EyeTV.

Re:800$ plus subscription??

[kalidasa]

Reception. Mine stinks.

Put DirecTV on notice.

[Overzeetop]

I've been a DTV subscriber because of their TiVo service. I stayed DTV because I could get a HD model and get HD programming via DTV. Now DTV is planning to (eventually) get rid of my TiVo, and there is now a real competitor as I could get an HD TiVo with my local (evil) cable company.

You are on notice, DirecTV. I chose you over cable because (Adelphia) cable is (more) evil and I like my TiVo, and the multitude of hacks available. Now that you are charging me more, taking away my TiVo, and your TiVo has less funcationality than a real one, cable just may win out.

$800 is a chunk of change, but the price will come down eventually. I'd be happy in the $400 range if I ended up with real value in the end.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[MBCook]

Same here. I have a DirecTiVo and it was very quickly clear to me that as much as I like DirecTV, I like my TiVo more. When my TiVo ceases to function (due to death, new channels I want to watch, whatever) I'm cancelling your service unless you offer a new Genuine TiVo I can purchase and use by then.

Dish Network: I've been getting mail from you every once and a while trying to get me to switch. Same thing applies. Give me a Genuine TiVo and when the time comes I'll go to you (since my local cable is horrid).

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[hpavc]

Switch to DishNetwork? Oh man try before you buy. DirectTivo is much better than tivo+dish or tivo+direct tv.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[CK2004PA]

Huh? I called DirecTV and got a FREE HD-DVR from them last week. The new MPEG-4 model (their unit not TiVo's). You know, the one selling for $400 at BestBuy right now ? I have a non-HD Hughes TiVo with DirecTV also, it still functions fine and DirecTV isn't "getting rid of it". Just new models are not TiVo but "DVR's". You can buy the older TiVo DirecTV units (HD and non) on Ebay if you want them. I agree, TiVo software is better and the hardware was quieter, but DirecTv is NO WHERE near as bad as Adelphia! (Also a former Adelphia "customer")

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[IAmTheDave]

When my TiVo ceases to function (due to death, new channels I want to watch, whatever) I'm cancelling your service unless you offer a new Genuine TiVo I can purchase and use by then.

I see a common theme here - the cable/dish company giving or renting you a Tivo, but not your actually paying $800 for one. I love TV, but TIVO wants me to have a cable subscription ($60-100/m with HD) pay $800 for a Tivo box, PLUS pay a monthly subscription fee to Tivo?

Please - if Comcast offers the Tivo box for rental - even for an additional $5 - over their shitty DVR, I'd love Tivo. But there is no way I'm paying for cable, $800 for a Tivo box, plus a monthly subscription fee to Tivo.

Death knoll for Tivo?

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[mjh]

I'm in a similar situation and I'm trying to weigh the same decision. I'm coming up with a different conclusion. For me the S3 TiVo's monthly sub is pretty expensive. And DTV is already cheaper than Time Warner with the DVR monthly fee included. Add to that the fact that TWC is doing SDV and I'm stuck between:

• Stick with DTV and HDTiVo: (-) No MPEG4 HD channels (-) HDTiVo still needs phone connection (+) OTA channels work and I get great signal
  
• Switch to TWC and S3: (-) No SDV channels (-) more expensive (+) OTA channels work and I get great signal
  

At this point, cost is the bigggest differentiator to me.

Of course, I will try to use the availability of the S3 to apply pressure to DTV. Our new house will be finished soon. So I'll be calling DTV to cancel. I'm going to try and extract a free HDTiVo from them. I'll use the existence of the S3 as leverage. DTV's customer retention is pretty generous when there's a credible threat that they might lose the customer. The S3 gives me that credible threat.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[gblues]

(full disclosure; I work for DirecTV)

DirecTV has actually beaten TiVo to market with a pretty competitive feature set; yeah, it's not TiVo, but the $500 you won't be spending on the box, plus the $265 yearly you won't be spending on TiVo subscription fees ($13/mo) and cablecard rental fees ($10/mo ea.) will make a nice pillow. ;) The HR20 launches today or tomorrow at retail channels for $299. Here's a breakdown of the featureset:

- Dual tuners? Check.
- Dual ATSC tuners? Check. (they're not enabled yet, but the hardware's there)
- 300GB SATA HD? check.
- External SATA jack for external storage space? check.
- Ethernet port for high-speed internet VOD? check.
- Exclusive interactive features not found on any TiVo? check.
- MPEG4 decoding (for up to 50 hours of HD from MPEG4 sources)? check.
- DirecTV's HD and DVR fees are per-household, so you can keep the HR10-250 around in another room, deactivate an old SD receiver, and your bill stays the same.

Now, if you already have the HR10-250, DirecTV will have a swap available soon. But if you're impatient, you can run out to Best Buy today and grab one, and call DirecTV to get a free dish upgrade for the 99/103 satellites.

Nathan

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[gEvil (beta)]

The "getting rid of it" refers to DirecTV's switch from broadcasting HD as MPEG-2 streams (which the HD DirecTiVo supports) to broadcasting HD as MPEG-4 streams (which only DTVs HD DVR supports). If you have an HD DirecTiVo, the HD channels you currently get are the only HD channels you will ever get, even as DirecTV adds more HD programming to their lineup.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[MindStalker]

You do know that DirecTV is phasing out the DirectTivo, hopefully it will continue to work forever, but there is no telling what happends.

MBCook: If your DirecTivo does die you can buy one on ebay for less than $50.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[cyber-dragon.net]

I could not agree more... they only got my business because they offered pure digital recording via TiVo. Then I find out my HD TiVo I payed $400 for is crippled functionality wise over even their non HD TiVo.

Screw that... if I can get HD channels recorded digitally via a real TiVo through cable sign me up. I hate the cable companies but not enough to give up my TiVo to stay with a satellite provider who obviously does not care about my business.

The funny thing is the piece of junk they try to sell you in place of the TiVo... do NOT fall into that trap. I had to laugh when I asked why on earth they thought it was an upgrade, since I had used it and it was a piece of junk, and all the lady could say was "it has 100 gigabytes instead of 80" not realizing the TiVo HD box I was after came with 250Gb HD.

Needless to say... I will be joining those dumping my satellite for cable when this comes out.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[MindStalker]

Unfortunatly once DirecTV has fully switches their HD to MPEG-4 the HD TiVo will not nessesarily work anymore.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[MBCook]

I know they are phasing them out, but they don't support MPEG4 which is what DirecTV will start using for new channels at some point (possibly including switching local channels). My understanding is that this will effect HDTV users more than little old SDTV me. As for the comment about eBay, that's true, but I'm guessing that by the time it dies I'll want to switch to a HD TiVo. If it were to die tomorrow, there is no question I'd get a new one off eBay. But I expect it to live for years to come.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[cyber-dragon.net]

Sorry dude... nice sales pitch but I have used the DirectTV DVR and it is JUNK compared to TiVo.
They are not even is the same ballpark usability wise.

Not one person who got suckered into buying DirectTV DVR that has tried even my feature-crippled HD TiVo from you guys has said "eh, this is just as good" it was more along the lines of "wow, I got ripped off"

It is like comparing a honda civic to a BMW... sure they both have four seats, and engine and wheels... but which one drives smoother? Which one has more power? Which is just plain more fun?

Signed,

Very disappointed direct tv customer who desperately wants a real TiVo option.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[Overzeetop]

- Dual tuners? Check.

I wouldn't expect less

- Dual ATSC tuners? Check. (they're not enabled yet, but the hardware's there)

Excellent. I hope the software upgrade to enable them get's more funding that the TiVo software did. I still don't have folders on my HR10-250. Or T2Go. Or Networking. Or TiVoWeb. Or MP3s. Or...

- 300GB SATA HD? check.

And this is better than a 250GB stock, or the ability to hack in a 500GB drive easily?

- External SATA jack for external storage space? check.

Is it active out of the box?

- Ethernet port for high-speed internet VOD? check.

And service is available now? It's going to be free with my DTV sub right?

- Exclusive interactive features not found on any TiVo? check.

Interactive? Well, if I can get my local wx broadcast that might be good. Again, all free, right?

- MPEG4 decoding (for up to 50 hours of HD from MPEG4 sources)? check.

Again, a 500GB drive buys me 50 hours. My HR10-250 is hacked, so I download my content to offline storage and burn season DVDs of what I like. Do you offer that on your box? If so, sign me up now - I'll decommission the SD TiVo my wife is using and put the new box on.

- DirecTV's HD and DVR fees are per-household, so you can keep the HR10-250 around in another room, deactivate an old SD receiver, and your bill stays the same.

You mean like dropping DTV and using the S3 to watch 25 (give or take) local broadcast channels for the $12.95/mo TiVo fee? Okay, I'm joking there. I have to have ESPN, especially now that ABC has dropped MNF. It's true that TiVo fees are per receiver, but if you get HD, you have to pay $10.95 for the HD package (all three worthwhile channels),plus the $5 DVR fee. That's more than the $12.95 TiVo fee. And every extra receiver is $5 for DTV vs $6.95 for TiVo's multi-box discount. If I'm dropping $80/mo on TV entertainment (and it pains me to admit that), an extra $2-4 to get the interface I really like is a worthwhile expenditure.

Really, I generally like DirecTV. The packages have what I like to watch. I had to drop NFLST because it just cost too damned much (close to $400 with the HD option), so that's no longer a factor keeping me with DTV. I switched from DTV to cable many years ago because I wanted local weather and the cost of local able was 1/2 what DTV cost. I switched from cable to DTV specifically because I could get the TiVo branded interface and add back NFLST, and kept it because I could get HD TiVo and hack the box to download all my shows for my personal archive. Now you're taking away the functionality I really like (which, admittedly, you han't intended to provide, you fair-use haters), removing the feature my wife likes the most (suggestions, which afaik you don't implement). I hate to say it, but you've essentially removed or out-priced all the things which really made DTV the choice. With the S3, I now have the ability to walk with few or no regrets.

I'll say it again - you're employer is on notice. It's just a matter of time (and price drop of the S3) before I jump, and the quicker you flip the M4 switch, the sooner I'll take the plunge.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[mrbooze]

If only DirecTV-branded DVRs weren't total pieces of shit in terms of usability. I've got the DirecTV DVR in the basement and a DirecTivo upstairs. Every time I use the DirecTV model I am forced to content with how horrible it is. Response time to button presses is awful, navigating to find shows is awful, figuring out why something didn't record that should have is awful. It even reboots itself sometimes while I'm watching it. The wife uses it when working out and she hates it too. I'm *this close* to just getting a free standalone Tivo and wiring it to a regular DirecTV receiver and throwing the DirecTV DVR out. There's more to the value of a product than a checklist of alleged features.

Also, I notice among the features you left off were features with any similarity to TivoToGo. You know, that functionality that you won't allow to run on my DirecTivo even though it would work. I wonder why that is?

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[silas_moeckel]

OK I'm a Directv subscriber with a hr10-250 since they shipped. The HR20 is missing:

Content export / import, Properly transcoded and upsampled content looks great on output and export HD looks great as well.

Sugestions, My tivo figures out most new shows that I might like and records them, it's good enough that I stopped looking for content to record.

Tivo extra's, I love being able to review email, weather rss feeds etc on my HDVR2 with 6.2 code on it. Pictures and MP3's are also quite usefull. Please dont quote the will be enabled in the future bit as Directv took that stance with the tivo's and 6.x code.

Realy the only good thing about Directv of late is the rumor that 6.3 will be released for the hr10-250 and the hopes that the community will fix the functions that were not implemented.

Oh yea as far as price directv is about 100 a month with the full package my cable company is the same price and that included cable internet so thats 500 a year in savings enough to amoritze the cost of tivo and take care of the monthly subscription. Tivo has these issues and Directivo had the possibility of being the killer app but thats not the road they took.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[walt-sjc]

As another (multiple) DirectTivo user, I will be very upset when my tivo no longer functions. I will not use the directtv tivo replacement. Instead, I'll probably drop back to regular tuners and build a myth box, or even go back to (yuck) cable. Yeah, I'll end up with poorer quality due to the re-encoding, but it's better than the alternative.

Not sure how I'll handle any HDTV issues - probably won't be able to utilize it at all. I sure won't deal with any of the DRM crap. My hope is that in a few years I'll be able to get a reasonably priced card that can do real-time compression of analog HDTV.

As for the new HDTivo, there is no way I'd pay $800 PLUS subscription however. Sheesh - it should at LEAST come with a year or two subscription as part of the package.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[HelloKitty]

same here. directV was way cool having tivo, but without tivo DirecTV is no better than localevilcable (comcast). I'm actually planning to drop directv as soon as possible. a dedicated tivo (i.e. not crippled by directv) would rock, but $800 is pretty awful. I'll buy it at half that price... maybe there will be a signup bonus for localevilcable and the unit will be sold "cheap" - like cellphones are sold with service plans... i can only hope...

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[UnifiedTechs]

I too am a Direct TV subscriber with a DTV Tivo Unit, already DTV no longer sells new Tivo units and unless their own DVR makes some major leaps in function/usability I will be considering other options. I turned down a HD receiver so I can keep Tivo already.

Hopefully DTV will wake up and realize the customers they will lose is going to far offset the licensing fees they saved.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[Squalish]

Tivo is great for wealthy professionals who don't get much leisure time when they'd like to because of work hours. And that's the demographic they're targetting.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[Gompers]

I am, and for the last few years have been, a DirecTV and DirecTivo subscriber. I've loved the service so far. I moved a couple of months ago, and had to deal with all the "upgrade" stuff that they want to offer you at the same time. I had to fight and claw to keep them from "Upgrading" my tivo to that horrendous DTV DVR thing that they've been shoving down people's throats. The installer ended up giving me one anyway, despite my insistance that I didn't want one.

I REALLY dislike that thing, and if that's more or less what the HR20 is going to be, you can say goodbye to my 150 bucks/month worth of DirecTV business the day you shut down the MPEG-2 streams. The user interface is horrendous. The remote is abysmal. It's slow as crap. It's loud. It's unstable, and it's generally a piece of garbage. I talked several people into DirecTV because of DirecTivo just before the switch, and they ended up with the same garbage I got. I honestly had to apologize to them because I didn't know that DirecTV had stopped selling DirecTivos and started selling their homegrown crap. They will probably be going back to cable in a few months when their contracts are up.

I don't honestly see what the HR20 has over the HR10-250 besides MPEG-4, which in all honesty would probably be a very simple thing to implement in the HR10-250. DirecTV differentiated itsself in the DVR-compatable TV providers by integrating Tivo (NOT just a "DVR") seamlessly with their service. Now that they are getting rid of that only distinction, the ONLY reason to stay with DirecTV is Sunday Ticket. And to be honest, considering it costs an absurd amount of money, and noone in their right mind can watch all those games, even that might not be enough of a reason for me to consider staying with DirecTV.

It's sad to me that DirecTV is letting the best offering in the business turn into an also-ran.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[pudro]

Adelphia no longer exists as a cable provider. They were acquired by Time Warner Cable and Comcast on July 31, 2006.

And you thought they were evil before!

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[interiot]

Just about any HD PVR is for wealthy professionals (you need an HDTV, often an HD subscription of some kind, and then then you need to pay the $250-800 for the PVR)... nonetheless, when you can get a subsidized HD PVR from someplace else for 1/3rd the price, Tivo's marketshare is going to be decreased quite a bit because of that.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[FatherOfONe]

You said exactly what I did. I am now a Brighthouse cable user and was a DirectTV guy.

I called and actually eventually talked to a VP at DirectTV and at this time they have no intention of ever working with Tivo again.

Now, an interesting part was how difficult it was for me to actually cancel my account. It took 20 minutes on the phone to do it.

Here is how it went down:

Me: Um yes I need to cancel my account.

DTV: Ok, we are sorry to hear that, and are glad to help, may I ask why?

Me: Well, this is a long story and I have talked to many DTV people, but in short you have canceled your deal with Tivo and even though we like DTV and have been a customer for over 8 years we love the Tivo and will be moving to a company that supports it (Brighthouse with cable card).

DTV: You do realize that our DVR does everything that a Tivo does

Me: Yes I realize that you believe it does, and I know a ton about DVR's. I have built Myth boxes and know that you signed a deal with Microsoft for their DVR. The last thing I want is all the virus and spyware crap on my DVR. I also have never seen a blue screen of death on my DVR.

DTV: Our DVR is exactly the same as Tivo.
Me: (Getting sucked in now) Really... It has a thumbs up and down feature?
DTV: Yes.
Me: (Now wanting to test the BS) It drops the video to my cellphone?
DTV: Yes.
Me: It will beam video to all my other players?
DTV: Yes
Me: (wow, how far can I take this?) It will allow me to burn DVDs?
DTV: Yes.
Me: Ok, I have a feeling that you are going to say "Yes" to any question I ask, so suffice it to say that this is like someone buying a new car. There are those that want a BMW and those that want a Honda. Both are cars and I am sure the Honda people will say that their car does "everything" the BMW does, they both have air, anti lock brakes, seat belts etc... but at the end of the day, there are people that want a BMW and think it is worth the money.
DTV: (Start of loop) Ok, Our DVR does everything a Tivo does.

START OF LOOP FOR OVER 10 MIN:
Me: Oh well, I want to cancel my account
DTV: Ok, why?
Me: Because you severed your deal with Tivo.
DTV: Our device does everything a Tivo does...
Me: Ok, you and I will disagree on that issue, so cancel my account
DTV: Ok, we will do that, why?
END OF LOOP FOR 10 MIN.

Finally... This is what ended the call
Me: OK! Ok! I want you to write this down. I am canceling my account because DirectTV severed their deal with Tivo. Write that down!
DTV: (Very angry now) OK! click.

They do NOT want to record that they lost a customer because of Tivo. So anyone who reads this and feels like me, please make them write it down. Some idiot at DTV has made an agreement with Microsoft and doesn't want anyone to know that they are loosing customers because of the Tivo deal.

It is too bad because we would have NEVER switched. We currently pay twice as much for cable, and we will probably drop the $800 for the new Tivo... That money "could" have went to DirectTV. I guess they don't want my money. Their loss... but then again what is an extra $50/month....

Now having said all this, I am greatly disappointed at the $800 price point. Man Tivo, come on, the box needs to be around $400. Will I actually pay it? I don't know the Scientific Atlantic box SUCKS SUCKS SUCKS SUCKS... (They also said it was just like a Tivo), but man, $800 AND a monthly cost.

So here is the net cost for me.
$1,100 for Tivo + 3 year subscription
$6.00 a month for cable cards.

I pay $14/month now for the worst DVR in the world (Scientific Atlantic HD box).

Now the real kick in the nuts is that I want two Series 3s. No discounts at all from Tivo; I called Tivo today to confirm. At $400 I was about to buy two of them today. At $500 I was probably going to buy two of them today. At $800, the P.o.S. SA box starts to look better (man I hate that box).

Sorry Tivo, but it is tough to pay that much with the PS3 coming out in a month and a half.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[SQLGuru]

Now you're taking away the functionality I really like (which, admittedly, you han't intended to provide, you fair-use haters), removing the feature my wife likes the most (suggestions, which afaik you don't implement).

The reason that no one else implements Suggestions (the primary reason that I won't give up my SD DirecTiVo) is that they hold a patent on it. Everyone does the basic features: WishLists, Season Passes, Pause Live TV, etc. It's the Suggestions that no one else has. My wife has Season Passes for all of her stuff, and suggestions are pretty much the only way any of my shows get recorded.

Layne

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[personman21]

249+99 does not = close to 400$ (I'm not saying it cheap either)

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[personman21]

Because Directv is going to have Direct 2 Go on its DVRs in the future.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[personman21]

The only two things that will not work are the HD Locals (over the sat, you will still be able to tune them through over the air) and interactive features.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[Anonymous Coward]

It took you 20 minutes because you let it. Inform them you are cancelling your account. Say no more. Answer nothing unrelated to the immediate cancellation. Note the date & time and what information you communicated. Call your credit card company, inform them that that merchent is no longer autherized to bill your card and that the service has been cancelled (relay your prior notes). Note this conversation too. 5-10 minutes top and you have no arguing and 100% recourse if they fail to cancel.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[Overzeetop]

Apparently DTV doesn't find it useful enough to have negotiated it into their cross licensing contract with TiVo. Suggestions is what my wife uses for everything, and quite honestly it may be the most amazing feature of the unit. Oh, sure, season passes get used for the kids stuff, and the series we watch. I'm not much of a wishlist guy, really, though my wife uses them a bit. Suggestions tends to find stuff off the beaten path we never would have known about, but which we end up really enjoying. It also helps a great deal with one-off specials. Again, I don't use them, but my wife's TiVo is trained so well that her suggestions folder tends to be 50-60% populated with stuff she really enjoys watching. In fact, the only reason we still have her TiVo (a stock 40 hour unit) is that it is trained and I can't transfer the training to my HR10-250.

The UI is fantastic overall, and the remote is the best bit of interface engineering I've come across in quite some time. Heck, I've got about 8 tivo remotes lying around the house so we don't have to carry them from room to room (my TiVos reside in my server closet, and are piped over UHF channels w/ IR repeaters at the TVs so we can watch either TiVo in any room). I'm not willing to take a step backward.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[NSIM]

While I agree with the sentiments, the facts about the DTV non-TIVO are just plain wrong, it has nothing whatsoever to do with Microsoft, it was developed by a UK company that is own by the Rupert Murdoch machine. So no need for the Microsoft-conspiracy bit ;-)

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[eison]

And yet, nobody cares, because it isn't a TiVo. Feature checklists are nice and all, but "As simple and easy to use as TiVo?" is hard to boil down to a checkbox, and is failed at by every other DVR.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[gblues]

You mean like dropping DTV and using the S3 to watch 25 (give or take) local broadcast channels for the $12.95/mo TiVo fee? Okay, I'm joking there. I have to have ESPN, especially now that ABC has dropped MNF. It's true that TiVo fees are per receiver, but if you get HD, you have to pay $10.95 for the HD package (all three worthwhile channels),plus the $5 DVR fee. That's more than the $12.95 TiVo fee. And every extra receiver is $5 for DTV vs $6.95 for TiVo's multi-box discount. If I'm dropping $80/mo on TV entertainment (and it pains me to admit that), an extra $2-4 to get the interface I really like is a worthwhile expenditure.

Well, let's compare. We'll ignore the fact that 99% of US markets are lucky to have 4 OTA broadcasts, and we'll leave out basic package costs and just assume they're equal (even though they're not).

DirecTV:
HR20: $299
HD package: $9.99/mo
Lease fee: $4.99/mo
DVR fee (household): $5.99/mo
Total investment after 1st year: 319.97
Monthly cost: 20.97

Cable:
S3 TiVo: $799
2 HD CableCards: $20/mo
TiVo Service Fee: $12.95/mo
TiVo 2nd room: $6.95/mo
Total investment after 1st year: 838.90
Monthly cost: 39.90

And that's still not taking into account the fact that the cable company will probably force you to subscribe to a digital tier which is more expensive than the equivalents in DirecTV programming.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[Overzeetop]

Sorry, I was referring to the total number of channels. I'm guessing most people will have the four networks plus PBS. Most stations near me are broadcasting 3 (maybe 4) total channels including subchannels. That's 15-20 in a normal market. Add in the WBs and PAX and other locals, and you can see where 20-25 is likely. Most of them are worth shit, but that's pretty much true of the cable/dtv basic options as well.

Also, locally (to me): "Consumers will be able to lease the cards directly from Adelphia for approximately $1.75 per month."

So presuming I got cable, I'm looking at $3.50/mo+$12.95+$6.95= $23.50/mo.

Sure, if I buy right now, I'll be out $800 for the DVR, but if I'd bought a DTV HD Tivo when it came out, I'd have shelled out $1000. I suspect the box price will drop to $500, and they'll include some programming with that, but the end of next summer. And I can wait for that.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[FatherOfONe]

Are you sure about this? I hope you are correct, but none the less, the box could have been running Ubuntu, it isn't a Tivo.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[NSIM]

Absolutely sure, the I can't quite remember the name of the firm that Sky/Murdoch/DirecTV owns, but it's a completel software hardware solution, and I'd bet money that it's running an embedded LINUX kernel. But it's stil not TIVO, and having experienced the UI on my sisters box in the UK, it's a long way from being competition to TIVO from a usability standpoint. Like others, if DirecTV persists in this decision to go it alone I'll be looking for another supplier for my TV in the future, meanwhile they have to rpize my 10-250 from cold dead hands before I accept their ersatz TIVO.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[NSIM]

Just tracked down a USA Today article that names the company as NDS. Article URL is
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technolog y/2004-11-29-dvr_x.htm
Company URL is
http://www.nds.com/personal_tv/personal_tv.html

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[bhawbaker]

however DirecTV is sending HDTV in HDLite format - i.e. 1280x1080i instead of the full 1920x1080i. This is somewhat understandable with limited bandwidth, but it is not good enough for me (a 8+ year DirecTV customer). I will not subscribe to new DTV services at this time. My service is still on mpeg-2 system with 2 DirecTivo and account with lifetime service. I am itching to jump the boat for better services. DirecTivo's lifetime services are the only thing keeping me in the boat.

Re:Put DirecTV on notice.

[Anonymous Coward]

Excellent. I hope the software upgrade to enable them get's more funding that the TiVo software did. I still don't have folders on my HR10-250. Or T2Go. Or Networking. Or TiVoWeb. Or MP3s. Or...

The lack of features on the HD DirecTivo was due to DirecTV's purposeful choice, not lack of funding.

Related stories...

[Evro]

How does this differ from the related story about this same product? Just that it's going to be released soon? Or that they included the price?

BTW... $800 plus subscription?????

Re:Related stories...

[w.p.richardson]

BTW... $800 plus subscription?????

That's what you get when there is a monopoly on the CableCARDs. If there were commercially available consumer versions of these then the price would be more reasonable from the outset. Unlike other posters seem to think, there will be no real reason for these to ever decrease in price, since there is essentially a cartel of suppliers who can set the price at whatever level they please.

Re:Related stories...

[jaredcat]

I disagree with your assesment.

The CableCARDs are rented from the local cable company at something like $5 - $15/month.

The Tivo is essentially commodity hardware stitched together with solid software and a fantastic UI. As the cost of those commodity parts drop, so will the retail price of the Series3 Tivo.

In the past, Tivo has been willing to sell the hardware at a loss hoping to make up the cost with their $12.95/month service fee. It hasn't really worked out that well for them, so they are not willing to sell the Series3 at a loss like they did with the Series1 and Series2. I suspect this is one of the reasons why Tivo is allowing (for the first time ever) to transfer "lifetime" subscriptions to the Tivo service bought in 1999-2000 to the new Series3 boxes. They actually make money selling a new box now.

Re:Related stories...

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect this is one of the reasons why Tivo is allowing (for the first time ever) to transfer "lifetime" subscriptions to the Tivo service bought in 1999-2000 to the new Series3 boxes.

It's the first time *for series 3 boxes* of course, but Tivo also had a short term tranfser of lifetime service from Series 1s to Series 2s.. (and that was free IIRC, but the hardware was MSRP too).

I don't even have an HDTV yet, but dislike monthly fees, so am still strongly considering the $1K for S3 + lifetime transfer. If it ends up being $200 next year, that'll be a bad gamble (assuming $7 multi-Tivo discount is still there).

Satellite?

[MBCook]

I have DirecTV (which frankly because they stopped supporting my TiVo I will dump when the time comes). Now I know the Series 3 supports CableCARD but does not support satellite inputs. Does anyone know if it would be possible for DirecTV to make a "DirecTV CableCARD", possibly with some little external box to transform the signals from the DirecTV frequencies to cable frequencies?

In other words, is there some reasonable way where if they were interested DirecTV (or even Dish) could make a CableCARD compatible thing to let you view/record their signal?

Re:Satellite?

[Wesley Felter]

DirecTV doesn't even allow third-party-branded boxes any more; I doubt they would allow cable boxes to connect even if it was technically possible.

Re:Satellite?

[enrico_suave]

Hauppauge and Cyberlink are working on a subscription satellite PC DVR solution so that you can legitimately "tune"/record your digital premium/subscription HDTV content from satellite.

But it's not out yet (just recently announced)...

E.

Re:Satellite?

[Red Flayer]

In other words, is there some reasonable way where if they were interested DirecTV (or even Dish) could make a CableCARD compatible thing to let you view/record their signal?

I'm sure it's possible. But, it's not likely -- satellite companies are not required by the FCC (since they're not regulated by the FCC) to use them, so why would they implement a technology that would take away their hardware lock-in?

BTW, the cable companies fought the concept of the cable card for years, but finally lost out to the FCC last year. I, for one, am glad that the FCC has mandated technology that actually increases consumer choice.

Re:Satellite?

[MindStalker]

Whats sad is the satalite companies could produce CableCARDs and the new TiVo will work with them. But they won't. I really don't understand the fallout between TiVo and the satalite companies. Apparently what happend with DirecTV is they realized they could save $1 a month per customer by dumping TiVo and offering their own service. Thats right, out of the extra $5 a month DirecTV gets for you having the TiVo service TiVo only gets $1, and DirecTV thought that was TOO much.

Re:Satellite?

[MBCook]

Which is espeically pathetic because I would still pay the DVR fee if they TRIPLED it to the $15 a month that TiVo charges. That way, I could still have a TiVo and DirecTV would get an extra $10 a month. Even if they only doubled it. Heck, they could have raised the price to $6 a month.

But instead they lost me as a future customer (and many others) because they were greedy over $1 and decided to give people sub-standard equiptment (non-TiVos) to save $$$.

Re:Satellite?

[jonwil]

Its probobly not just about the money, its probobly also about being able to control things.
I have no idea if hacks for DirecTivos are available in the same way that hacks for regular Tivos are but that could certainly have been a factor.

Re:Satellite?

[cayenne8]

"...satellite companies are not required by the FCC (since they're not regulated by the FCC) to use them...the cable companies fought the concept of the cable card for years, but finally lost out to the FCC last year..."

Any idea why satellite is not regulated by FCC and cable companies are? Seems strange, especially since it to my mind, should be the other way around since satellites are using radio spectrum, and cable is not...

Re:Satellite?

[really?]

I believe that what you are looking for is a Dreambox - even a 500S would do - with one of the third party firmwares; Gemini project would be a good one.

Re:Satellite?

[Dun Malg]

Any idea why satellite is not regulated by FCC and cable companies are? Seems strange, especially since it to my mind, should be the other way around since satellites are using radio spectrum, and cable is not...

The premise behind the FCC regulating the broadcast spectrum is that there is a limited amount of bandwidth available and they can't just have terrestrial broadcasts be a free-for-all where the guy who builds the biggest transmitter wins. Satellite broadcasts are a different story. The signal is so weak that if you don't have a collector dish pointed right at the satellite in it's geosynchronous orbit, you don't even get the signal, much less have trouble with interference. Basically, you could conceivably have fifty satellites in various orbits, all transmitting on the same frequency and not one of them would interfere with another.

Re:Satellite?

[cayenne8]

Thanx for the reply..that makes sense. However, in reference to your reply, then why in the world are cable companies regulated by the FCC,since they don't broadcast using any of the broadcast spectrum? They just run everything over wire?

Too late!

[Anonymous Coward]

Too late TiVO. I have a series 2 box (I love it), but by cable provider (Comcast) just gave me two hidef DVR's for "free". Why would I pay $800 for something I get for "free?". The other big advantage is that I dont need to use the stupid infrared hack to change channels on my cable box. Anyone know a way around it?

Re:Too late!

[gEvil (beta)]

The other big advantage is that I dont need to use the stupid infrared hack to change channels on my cable box.

Which is precisely the reason why the Series 3 has built-in tuners and CableCard support. The Series 3 is your cable box.

Re:Too late!

[TomServo]

I've got the Moxi Hi-Def Tivo through Time Warner cable (originally through Adelphia, but there's been a buyout). At least for my cable company, they don't give me the box for free, I pay about $15 a month for it. In the meantime, the interface is horrid, it's been a little bit less than reliable when it comes to actually recording things and has randomly deleted things, it's slow, and basically spends most of its time reminding me why I like the Tivo so much more. Also, it sounds like the Tivo is going to have about 3-6 times more capacity depending on what you record.

After using the cable company's DVR, I definitely consider it worth the money to go for the Tivo instead.

Re:Too late!

[martin_b1sh0p]

And don't forget sound. THX-Certified, so the HD audio (i.e. dolby digital) should sound great and probably better than a run of the mill cable company / dish company tivo like box when hooked up to the proper equipment.

Re:Too late!

[TomServo]

Moxi Hi-Def Tivo

err.....DVR

Re:Too late!

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats why I put "free" in quotes dummy. Its not really free, but the consumer thinks it is. $800+$15 a month for TiVo is even less "free" than Comcast.

Re:Too late!

[futuresheep]

I've been waiting for the Series 3 after a year of dealing with my FREE HD DVR from Comcast. The Microsoft software on it is horrid. It's slow, unresponsive, and featureless compared to my Tivo Series 2. The IR Blaster to change channels? Here's something odd, after Comcast updated the software on the non dvr motorola boxes to the Microsoft software, it would take up to 5 seconds to change a channel using the motorola remote. The IR Blaster does it on about 1. The biggest drawback is that I can't put my Comcast DVR on my network and share recordings around the house, or pause in one room and resume in another. I also can't use it to play back my kids DVD's from a fileshare like I can with my Series 2 Tivo's. Sure, the Cable companies will LEASE you a HDDVR with no upfront charge, but in this case you really get what you pay for.

Re:Too late!

[TomServo]

While you appear to be a bit of a douchebag, I never noticed your other question.

Most of the digital cable boxes I've come into contact with (they've all been Motorolas, I believe) have a serial port on the back of the cable box that the Tivo can change channel through. It's a bit quicker and far more reliable than the infrared dealy-bob in my experience.

Re:Too late!

[DarthBart]

Yeah, its free...and you get what you pay for. The Motorola 6412 DVR BLOWS GOAT. The user interface is atrocious (I have to dredge through a non-filterable guide that shows everything, including channels I don't subscribe to), the responsiveness sucks (it'll sometimes queue up remote control keypresses and then execute them all at once), and the channel guide information is pathetic at best (damn thing filled itself up recording a marathon of SG-1 even though I have the series recording set for 'First Run Only').

I may have to suck a lot of dick and turn some nasty tricks to afford the $800, but I'm going to get one.

Re:Too late!

[hansamurai]

It sucks that you have the Microsoft software, but in the Midwest, Comcast loads their own software (I believe, definitely not Microsoft's) that is pretty usable. It's not horrible but I know it's not Tivo standard. But then again, I pay just a few dollars a months to rent it and I get a dual-HD tuner out of the box.

Re:Too late!

[binarymetal]

Because you're not a "prosumer" or videophile.

The Series 3 is aimed at the high-end A/V market.

You may not care about features like "native resolution output" but as a videophile this is a feature I've been begging cable companies to do for a long time.

On top of that, a lot of us don't like our cable DVRs. I use TWC and have a Scientific Atlanta 8300.

From the hardware perspective:

1. The box is slow and has a tendency to crash.

2. Resolution/Aspect ratio control is a pain to work with.

3. Digital non-HD channels don't come out with the true aspect ratio so my video scaler doesn't process the picture properly (the SA8300 outputs them as pillar boxed 16:9 instead of 4:3 480i).

4. The remote control sucks. Almost all of the buttons feel the same. When I want to fast forward I literally have to find the center button then move down 2 buttons and right 1 button (or I have to look at it).

5. Sound problems where the audio cuts out and in at random times (this started when I switched to the SA8300).

From the user experience:

1. The menus are slow and clunky

2. The EPG is worthless. How's a description that reads "(PG-13) 1997. A charming movie about..." supposed to help me decide if I want to watch something or not? TWC consistantly puts forth these worthless EPG program descriptions.

3. Switching to slow motion is very unpredictable and inconsistant - sometimes it takes a few tries

4. When recordings are cancelled, the thing has a tendancy to restart the recording at random times.

From my perspective, the $800, while expensive, is worth it. You get a superior service and a superior device with the best possible PQ. Now if Tivo will implement some way for us to control the unit via a home automation system I'll be in A/V dork heaven.

Re:Too late!

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a big douchebag to be sure! ;-)

Yeah I checked, but the particular Motorola box I have doesnt work. I was wondering if there was another workaround...

Re:Too late!

[NulDevice]

It works, more reliably than IR, but not perfectly. The Moto boxes (or possibly my S2 Tivo) have really slow serial ports. It sometimes freaks out when trying to change from a very low channel (like, 8) to a higher one (like, 120) and gets it all wrong, and I end up on channel 28 or something weird. At first I thought it was a problem with the cable tuner, but this is the second of the boxes they brought me and it has the same problem. Could be the tivo.

That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Gr8Apes]

At $800 plus subscription fees, DIY HTPCs just became an economical project.

• MB/CPU/Case/PSU - can be had for as litt'e as $120, but without rebates, etc, $200. Really nice $300-$400 (Mostly case on that)
  
• HD - $100 or less
  
• GPU - $80 or less
  
• 2 tuner cards - $230 (1 can be combined with GPU in some cases, depending upon OS used)
  
• DVD Burner - $30 (not an option on Tivo!)
  

for a total of the most expensive system: $840, and will do more than a Tivo at the same price.

Cheapest system for HD dual tuner could be had for less than $500, with burning capability and no DRM nonsense, but no CableCard either.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Anonymous Coward]

$840, and will do more than a Tivo at the same price.

I'm assuming you consider more as not being able to record about 75% of the HD content out there.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[fruity_pebbles]

The DIY HTPC won't do CableCard, and your inexpensive tuner cards won't do HD. If you want that functionality the expensive Tivo is a good choice.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[jedidiah]

Nevermind the separate GPU. The integrated video on a $80 mobo will be
more than adequate and won't require a separate card that has it's own
noisy fan.

Be mindful of things like vga ports when you buy your HDTV and you
won't even need HDMI or DVI outputs on your GPU.

Although even things like the pundit bookpc barebones systems have
that sort of thing built in too.

The whole "DRM" thing still give Tivo an edge at least for a little while.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Anonymous Coward]

Now if you can only get a legit, HD Cable signal you'd be all set.

THAT is what the extra money is for.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Ucklak]

Isn't the only option for DIY is OTA HD?

My question to manufacturers is why hasn't someone made a component in HD card?
That would cause quite a stir and be a boon for the DIYers. I think that is when I jump in on the MythTV bandwagon.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[gr8_phk]

your inexpensive tuner cards won't do HD

At $129 the HD5500 from pchdtv.com isn't the cheapest one out there, but it does recieve OTA and unencrypted cable HDTV. There are cheaper solutions out there, this is just a later rev of the one I've had for 2 years. You are correct that an HTPC won't support cable card. OTOH, it does support burning to DVD.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Anonymous Coward]

No Cable Card!

Your PC will have more features, but be able to record less the 3/4th of the channels.

To decrypted a encrypted digital cable channel, you need the card.

The only non-encrypted services would be the HDTV off-air must carries.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Anonymous Coward]

CableCARD's a big ripoff anyway. At least in my area you can't get any of the "Premium" content using it, you have to use a cable-company issued receiver to descramble it. I guess if you just want standard cable, it's OK, but I've been hearing of some markets having the entire menu scrambled to prevent taps as well as to push sales/rentals of their recievers for all of the TVs in a house.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Palshife]

CableCARD is one of the only HD technologies out there that's trying to save consumers money and increase competition amongst receivers. Renting one is cheaper than renting a cable box. It allows you to get a set top box that you like, rather than the one they chose, many of which force you to see advertisements where you'd rather not.

Time Warner in Houston offers all of it's programming over CableCARD. The technology isn't quite ready to support bi-directional features like on-demand, but it's coming.

We legislated CableCARD because we wanted freedom from vendor lock-in! Embrace competition!

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's incorrect. CableCARD will accept any one-way digital cable service. The only things it won't support are video-on-demand, pay-per-view, and your cable operator's on-screen program guide. If there are normal channels (including premium channels like HBO) that aren't working with a CableCARD, contact your television manufacturer or the FCC.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[RosenSama]

For bi-directional support you're talking about CableCARD 2.0, which Tivo Series 3 will support. Here's more of Ars' coverage of CableCARD 2.0

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Gr8Apes]

2 ACs and you posted that it won't do CableCard, like I didn't say that in

Cheapest system for HD dual tuner could be had for less than $500, with burning capability and no DRM nonsense, but no CableCard either.

Knowing that cable/sat HD signals are more compressed, the OTA signal may be better anyways for those that are available OTA.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Anonymous Coward]

There are two parts to bi-directional support - technology and licensing. Series 3 supports the technology, but in order to support bi-directional functionality, manufacturers must agree to certain terms and conditions. A license called CHILA exists, but is unacceptable to many manufacturers, largely because it requires devices to interface with cable through OCAP, which means that rather than using protocols to access pay-per-view content, it has to use the whole cable operator middleware. Companies like TiVo, which pride themselves on user experience, tend to find this wholly unacceptable.

There are efforts to create a new license that does not rely on OCAP, but until then, I doubt TiVo will support bidirectional CableCARD.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[leoxx]

The DIY HTPC won't do CableCard

That's a feature, not a bug.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Kjella]

My question to manufacturers is why hasn't someone made a component in HD card?

Cost. A component in is already analog, you need a *lot* of horsepower to digitize it and encode it in real time. From what I've understood the OTA cards just decode the signal to a compressed MPEG2 transport stream...

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Anonymous Coward]

Tivo provides its own program guide (as do beyondtv, and myth et al via titantv). If you don't use pay-per-view, it's not such a bad idea.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[lusid1]

There are two other options: QAM and Firewire

These are both supported now by MythTV.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[riflemann]

The DIY HTPC won't do CableCard, and your inexpensive tuner cards won't do HD. If you want that functionality the expensive Tivo is a good choice.

I don't know exactly what cablecard is, I presume it's just a CAM. In which case, mythtv supports DVB cards with CAM slots in them, so yes, encrypted broadcasts can be legally received on a homebrew HTPC.

Of course, one provider is refusing to provide a CAM for their encryption format, but many other providers have easily available CAMs.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[speculatrix]

do you mean why can't you buy one of these: pci black magic hd capture card

sure you can!

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[jonwil]

Show me a box that:
A.Lets one recieve and record digital cable (including all the encrypted channels and pay-per-view content etc)
B.Lets one copy the recorded content to a computer on my network or to some kind of removable storage e.g. DVD (without DRM or restrictions on further copying)
and C.Is legal (so it wont get shut down by the cable companies)
then I will be interested in a HTPC as a DVR.

Of course, no such box exists. If you have A, the cable companies and content providers wont let you have B so you have to do illegal DMCA violating hacks which means you can't have C.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[nsayer]

That card is $250 and gives you UNcompressed HD streams ("You get to drink from the FIRE HOSE!"). If you seriously expect to build a DVR with that, then you'll be spending ten times the price of the series 3 TiVo on hard disks alone.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[jonesy16]

While I would LOVE the idea of doing everything the TIVO can do on a PC (assuming you can find a sleek looking one that won't look absurd next to the TV and A/V receiver), the biggest shortcoming is the software. Your solution doesn't include the cost of software to power this behemoth. Windows Media Center isn't cheap, even at OEM costs. MythTV can be downloaded for free, as can a supporting Linux distro, but the value of your time isn't in here. I've read, continuously, that MythTV is not easy to install, and highly volatile depending on the exact models of tuner/video cards, etc. Assuming an average yearly nerd wage of like $60,000/yr at 2,000 hrs per year that's $30 per hour. If it takes you 20 hours to research/configure/build this machine then your cost is now up to $1440, which will get you several years of TIVO service along with their shiny box. I'm still a firm believer that the Mac Mini is the best candidate (convenient design, DVI output, HD resolution output, remote control, networkable), they just need to add an HD tuner or two and CableCard support.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Gr8Apes]

You can with everything but cable and satellite provided HD content at the moment, because cable and satellite require those quirky DRM'd boxes.

Otherwise, hook up a tuner to the NTSC output of your box - voila. No violation of DMCA. OTA HD is directly receivable.

The cable and satellite companies have gone a long way towards the Ma Bell rent a phone model of business, and gone a step further with DMCA "protections" for things that should be readily available, as they have been with OTA. The FCC could fix this by only allowing signals to be sent via the same standards as that enjoyed by OTA broadcasters. They won't though, because they've been bought and paid for by the content ownership industry.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Gr8Apes]

For the case, here's a PC looking case, or a couple of more AV friendly cases by Zalman or a nice Silverstone that's almost indistinguishable from AV equipment.

As for regarding MythTV, if you buy your parts according to the Dragon reference system, you shouldn't have any issues whatsoever, although you may be spending a few more bucks than if you're willing to spend your own time working with a custom configuration of lowest $ parts.

And lastly, let me agree with the Mac Mini. It's slick!

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[jedidiah]

If you're really that pretentious to believe that your time is
actually worth something than the cost of an OEM license for
Windows MCE is TRIVIAL.

Otherwise, you've got time to burn and you can just install MythTV.

That whole "my time is worth something, really it is" is really
completely self defeating.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[jedidiah]

A PVR, even a Tivo, is just a PC. In the end, you're just
taking a regular old PC and adding a few extra components
and some specialized software. The only tricky bits will
be the add-ons. Even with MythTV, those are well spelled
out as to what you should buy.

You can "cheat" even further and peruse the HTPC stores
for suitable components (or just have them build you
one).

You can even start out "nice and easy" and just install
the software by itself on whatever hardware you happen
to have lying around (including your current machine).

PVR and vidcap cards have been around for a LONG time,
supported in Linux even.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[jonesy16]

Wow, that's all I can say. But let me add that it has nothing to do with being pretentious. People value their time in different ways. A college kid might not care that it takes several nights of tinkering to get a MythTV box to meet his/her needs, in which case, go for it. All that I said was that if you value your time (and that doesn't have to be monetarily, it could mean you just would rather hang out with your kids/spouse or actually watching TV), then spending an extra couple hundred of bucks to get a system that works out of the box with no hassle for years to come is probably a worth while investment and shouldn't just be compared to the cost of the hardware alone of other options. To say that time isn't worth anything is pure ignorance in the face of priorities. Ultimately, your decision to purchase one solution or another will depend on your priorities.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Gr8Apes]

You've got time, you've got to spend it doing something. Now, whether that's staring at the wall slack-jawed or build a DVR time is up to you.

Seriously, you have to get away from your kids and wife sometime.... ;)

Now, for the humor impaired - the staring at the wall slack-jawed is a reference to watching TV, which ties in nicely with the parent's statement about "actually watching TV" which they imply is more important than actually doing something, like building a DVR.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that why we can't use TiVo to Go or similiar features on our shiny series 3 TiVos?

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[speculatrix]

sure, just install an eight-way dual-core opteron system and you can compress it in real time down to top quality divx

erm, ok, maybe not :-(

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Anonymous Coward]

+1 Great UHF reference.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[dfghjk]

"I'm still a firm believer that the Mac Mini is the best candidate (convenient design, DVI output, HD resolution output, remote control, networkable), they just need to add an HD tuner or two and CableCard support."

A convenient design is one that has an inadequate hard drive, zero exapandability, and required tuners attached to USB or Firewire? Don't forget that the mini can't take a real hard drive and not PC, Apple or otherwise, can take CableCard.

Any PC can offer DVI, HD resolution output, remote control, and networking. There are far better PC's for the job than the mini.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[tap]

The HDMI output from a cable company set top box is encrypted, making that card useless for capturing it. That card is for capturing the unencrypted output from an HD camera. Hardware to capture HD component signals is more expensive, and since it's uncompressed it produces a huge amount of data. In order to be practical, you need to compress in real time, and hardware to compress HD in real time is very expensive.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[tap]

There is no card for a computer that supports CableCard. You can't even buy a set top box that supports CableCard. The only CableCard hardware you can buy is a TV, which of course won't output the content in any way except to the screen. You can't even buy the CableCards, you must rent them from the cable company. The media companies are using CableCard to lock out any competition in the DVR market, so you're only choice will be hardware approved by the media companies that operates in the way they want. That means no 30 second skip, no burning to DVD, no transferring from one DVR to another, and the ability of the media companies to block recording of any content they choose.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Dun Malg]

I don't know exactly what cablecard is, I presume it's just a CAM. In which case, mythtv supports DVB cards with CAM slots in them, so yes, encrypted broadcasts can be legally received on a homebrew HTPC. Of course, one provider is refusing to provide a CAM for their encryption format, but many other providers have easily available CAMs.

Yes this is all very nice if you live in Europe where the DVB standard is already in place. At present there does not exist a CableCard compatible PCI capture card. Legality is not the issue.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[tap]

CableCARD is one of the only HD technologies out there that's trying to save consumers money and increase competition amongst receivers. Renting one is cheaper than renting a cable box. It allows you to get a set top box that you like, rather than the one they chose, many of which force you to see advertisements where you'd rather not.

So where is this competition? Where are these cablecard receiver that don't force you to watch advertisements? There aren't any! CableCard is fake competition. The media companies and the cable companies control the licensing of CableCard. The won't license it to anyone who might compete with them. The cable companies are open to competition, they just get to choose who is allowed to compete with them and have absolute veto power over anything their competitors may produce.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Rich0]

I tend to doubt that 8-way dual opterons would be enough, although I can't say I'm an expert in this.

I'm guessing that the necessary hardware would be a combination of DSPs, CPUs, lots of RAM, etc. They actually exist and are commercially available - how do you think that live HD programming gets compressed in the first place? They're just WAY too expensive for consumer use.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[jonesy16]

I disagree. Your HTPC should be a portal for media, not the full blown computer with fans, heat, noise, size, etc sitting next to your elegant TV/DVD/Receiver, etc. Those consumer devices are usually designed to be sleek and have a uniform feel. It's my opinion, and opinions can't be wrong, that something *LIKE* a Mac Mini would be an ideal solution. You'll also note that my comment said they needed to add a built-in HD tuner and CableCard before the solution would work. I don't think that the ideal setup will entail the storage medium to be situated locally. I think that most people who build up a large media collection will keep that on a data server somewhere so that they can maintain backups, watch it from other systems in the house, etc. In which case, all you really need is a network connection (could be terrestrial, could be wireless) to stream that media to a decoding / display unit, like the Mini.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[dfghjk]

"Your HTPC should be a portal for media, not the full blown computer with fans, heat, noise, size, etc sitting next to your elegant TV/DVD/Receiver, etc."

My HTPC is a portal for media, it's a full blown computer (as is the mini) that is totally silent, compact, and styled to look exactly like a home theater component. It is far more compatible with the living room than a mini which is styled to look conspicuously like an Apple computer product.

"Those consumer devices are usually designed to be sleek and have a uniform feel."

Yes, like my HTPC and unlike the mini.

"It's my opinion, and opinions can't be wrong, that something *LIKE* a Mac Mini would be an ideal solution."

Of course opinions can be wrong. What gave you that idea? Of course, something *LIKE* a mini might very well be provided it offered more storage, more appropriate industrial design, and TV tuner options (like current HTPCs).

"You'll also note that my comment said they needed to add a built-in HD tuner and CableCard before the solution would work."

Then it wouldn't be a mini, would it? CableCard doesn't work in PC's and the cable companies don't want it to.

"I don't think that the ideal setup will entail the storage medium to be situated locally."

Then you don't understand the typical home user. Remote storage isn't something the typical consumer will even understand. On top of that, mac's don't do all that well as network filesystem clients. Hopefully Apple will fix that with Leopard. My PowerMac was easily the worst network client I've used in over a decade and my G4 mini was bad as well. They have some serious kernel locking issues to sort out.

"I think that most people who build up a large media collection will keep that on a data server somewhere so that they can maintain backups, ..."

You don't need a remote server to maintain backups.

"...watch it from other systems in the house, etc."

Don't need a remote server for that either.

"In which case, all you really need is a network connection (could be terrestrial, could be wireless) to stream that media to a decoding / display unit, like the Mini."

Most households will have one HTPC, not several. In those applications, a remote file server serves no purpose, is hard to understand for the average user, costs more money and is less reliable. All this to make up for the fact that the mini is poorly suited to the task.

I personally have two HTPCs, each backs the other up, and each can play whatever content I have. I have no need or justification for a remote file server, my machines look far better in the equipment rack than a mini ever could, they are totally silent, have Core Duo processors, 1GB of memory and 1TB of storage, they both have HD tuners, and they both play ALL content available including DRMed WMV files and iTunes files should I want them. The mini can't hope to compare. Apple needs to replace the mini with a more capable box but instead they do the iTV :-(

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[jonesy16]

The "typical home user" as you refer to him/her also does not want to use their TV as their computer. They have a separate computer for that. It's on that computer that they will be purchasing music, purchasing movies, organizing content, etc. So yes, it does make sense for all of the media to be stored on that computer and streamed to a device connected to the TV which will handle the video and audio rendering. If I were wrong then HTPC's would be more prevalent than they are. Clearly the consumer is looking for something better, and the mini is currently the most likely candidate being offered that a "typical home user" will get exposed to.

Your setup is great and all that, but it's also costly and complicated to integrate for the "typical home user".

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[dfghjk]

"The "typical home user" as you refer to him/her also does not want to use their TV as their computer."

Speak for yourself, but you mini isn't suited for that user, either. That's what the iTV is for (and the media center extenders that the iTV copied). I, and my guests, love browsing on my TV, but I have large RPTV sets that do 1080 and find them well suited to the task.

Remember that this all started with the claim that the mini was the ideal device to connect to the TV. No matter how you slice it, the mini isn't the right device.

"If I were wrong then HTPC's would be more prevalent than they are."

I'm sorry, but that doesn't follow. There are plenty of reasons why HTPC's aren't more prevalent. We're in the early adopter phase right now. Windows solutions suck, Linux ones are even worse, and Apple offers nothing at all. Prior HTPCs were unappealing because HDTV didn't exist and HDTV adoption still isn't that great. Amazon and iTunes have just begun to offer a variety of content. The market is brand new.

"Clearly the consumer is looking for something better, and the mini is currently the most likely candidate being offered that a "typical home user" will get exposed to."

No, for your "typical home user" the iTV/MCE extender is. That appears to be what Apple thinks as well. Remember, Apple has a 5% marketshare; the "typical home user" uses a PC.

"Your setup is great and all that, but it's also costly and complicated to integrate for the "typical home user"."

My setup is costly but not complicated. It's simply two HTPCs and an additional application that syncs them. ---much simpler than your mini plus network fileserver plus backup solution. The reason mine is costly is that quality, silent HTPCs aren't cheap. A mini with additional RAM, addon tuners, and a separate fileserver, a backup device, and a backup solution would be equally expensive (per TV) and far more complex. A mac plus an iTV is more economical (but offers no backup solution) and that's the direction Apple is taking.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Gr8Apes]

if you would - could you list out your components? Or link to a site that does.

I'm about to build one, and would really like the software/hardware lists. (I've already started on the hardware, but can always change if needed).

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[dfghjk]

I chose to purchase prebuilt systems from here: http://www.okoromedia.com/

They sell parts and list what goes in their systems.

I ordered two LX100 systems and upgraded the hard drives myself. I had much better luck (though not perfect) with the ATI video than nVidia when driving my HDTV sets, but otherwise I've been very happy with my units. They are quiet, well made and perform well. They aren't inexpensive though I'm sure you could do better pricewise.

MCE itself is pretty frustrating. It offers a plugin architecture and there's a good plugin called "My Movies" that you will probably want to install. Okoro does that for you when you buy from them. With my setup, my MCE usage is mostly limited to the "My Movies" and "My Videos" features. Otherwise, people generally prefer switching back to Windows for iTunes, browsing, P2P, etc.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Gr8Apes]

very nice looking systems - thanks for the link. I'm not sure I'm going to go MCE, as I'd have to go purchase a copy (or a whole system). I'm going to have to think long and hard about the case. Perhaps the first one is going to just be a plain jane box to see if it works.

I note that you state you use a plugin for movies/videos, which I'm guessing solves many of the complaints folks have about MCE itself. The whole "people generally prefer switching back to Windows" for other functions is depressing at best.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[dfghjk]

I think MCE is pretty miserable, frankly. The problem is that Windows MCE is the only platform that you KNOW will play all video content. If that isn't important to you, then other platforms may be viable.

Regardless of the "10 foot interface", my guests want to browse, run P2P software and run iTunes. Because of that, no 10 foot interface (MCE, MythTV, FrontRow) will work and you will have to switch out. I'm not a huge fan of iTunes but everyone knows it and that's what they're comfortable with. A Mac might be a good choice but it has no builtin Tivo functions through FrontRow and it won't play WMV protected content. That leaves MCE, sorry as it is. I dismissed MythTV as an option because it won't play protected content, it won't run iTunes natively, and it won't be familiar to many of my guests. I considered using mini's but the hard drive and WMV issues are a killer for me.

"My Movies" is a plugin that offers DVD ripping (that I don't use), a small database and a tool for using IMDB and similar services. It works great for managing a reasonable DVD collection. Don't know how well it scales.

I am pleased with my LX100 case. It doesn't take a normal video card, though, due to the height. It is totally silent, well made, and looks appropriate. No one so far has figured out that it's a PC.

Re:That DIY HTPC just became economical!

[Gr8Apes]

The LX100 case definitely looks cool.

As for iTunes, it's not a major issue on my end. (I can hear the gasp of horror now, including from my own Powerbook. :) I tend to like audio ripped from CDs, uncompressed or losslessly compressed. The iTunes music store at this point doesn't really intrigue me except for the off-hand piece of music. (exactly 1 tune so far)

WMV also isn't an issue for me. I have no WMV video, and odds are, with the way I utilize entertainment, I won't in the foreseeable future either. (I won't say never, never's a bad word)

What I do need it to play is DVR'd content from my Dish satellite, and from OTA HD. Since I'm not impressing guests, and I would prefer guests to keep their paws off my system(s), I don't really care if they can use them or not. (So others knowing how to use it isn't a primary issue either).

So basically I need something that works. That's it. Interfaces need to please me, and that may well be asking for the moon.

Compatibility

[iendedi]

So this is going to be compatibe with what digital cable providers?

Will it work with any variety of Satellite?

The thing about HD is that it REQUIRES a digital feed. Will the new Tivo act as a secure recipient of HDMI content or does it even have HDMI in? Is the output DRM encumbered HDMI or straight DVI / component?

At 800 bucks plus subscription, this thing better work with everything or Tivo will loose their shirts.

Re:Compatibility

[TomServo]

Just as far as the first question goes, cable companies are required by law to provide cablecards to customers upon request. I don't know about satellite, though I'd imagine they are required to. So, to answer the question, it will be compatible with all digital cable providers and I believe will be compatible with all satellite providers.

Re:Compatibility

[HaeMaker]

CableCard is a federal mandate. It will support all cable companies who provide a digital signal.

And at $800 they are going to lose their shirt.

Re:Compatibility

[systems_joe]

Will the new Tivo act as a secure recipient of HDMI content or does it even have HDMI in?

No, it does not have HDMI in. The only input is coax coming in from the cable TV company. The device has up to two CableCARD tuners so that it can record digital cable TV channels.

Re:Compatibility

[cayenne8]

" No, it does not have HDMI in"

What about HDMI out?? I thought I'd heard that soon if you aren't using this, that your tv would not play the HD content at full res....

Re:Compatibility

[djrogers]

There is no sattelite standard for cablecard, each provider uses their own broadcast/encoding/encryption methods, and no they are not regulated into providing access to the data streams from 3rd party devices. If you want to watch D* or E*, you have do do it via one of their STBs or DVRs (yes, you can chain a dvr behind an STB).

Dish Network

[Wizworm]

Wow I've had an HD DVR for 2 years, whats next, Tivo comes out with this new thing they call the "wheel"

Re:Dish Network

[Dadoo]

Yeah, TiVo's really beginning to irritate me with their inability to keep up. About a month ago, I bought a wireless adapter for my Series 2, only to find out my TiVo didn't support WPA. How long has WPA been out, now, two years?

Last week (or was it the week before?) they announced they'll be supporting WPA, finally, but only on their special adapter. Needless to say, I am not a happy customer.

Re:Dish Network

[Itninja]

That's only because Dish Network (aka Echostar) infringed on Tivo's patent.

To be used for...?

[spamchang]

I can hear the lawyers for the MPAA, all professional sporting leagues, and network broadcasters sharpening their knives already...this baby has got to be hackable! :D

Tivo can't compete any more..

[rprague]

It doesn't matter what kind of hardware they want to sell for a retarded amount of money. I have a series one tivo sitting in my garage gathering dust. It's got a pair of 100gig drives in it, ethernet card, extra fan attached, all that... Tivo still wants 12.95 a month for the service. My comcast DVR costs me $3.95/month on a lease deal, it records high def, and I didn't spend a dime to get it. Without some kind of radical change in their pricing and features, Tivo can't stay in the market.

Re:Tivo can't compete any more..

[GenmaKun]

I beg to differ, but Tivo seems to be considerably cheaper than Comcast. Your Comcast also charges you around $65/month for service... assuming you also have internet and phone with them so they lower the cost by $10. (That is what I'm paying Comcast, we have nothing extra, just the bare minimum required to get local HD channels. With the "free" PVR also of course.) Compare this to OTA which is free once you have the setup. So I would be getting the $800 box and happily paying the $13/month for OTA... I'll break even in a little over a year, and Comcast will probably be charging $80/month by then. And when that is obsolete, I'll probably just buy a BlueRay player when they come down in price and get my TV from Netflix. (I say "would" because here in Denver we have a group of NIMBY viewNazis who refuse to let the tv channels build a single HD tower where 4 SD towers stand now. The group in question is in Golden, one of our upscale suburban towns in the foothills. They all have the $100/month extortion Comcast wants for their better packages, and have change left over to hire gardeners and buy off the city council. So we get no single HD antennae... and poor signal quality if you even get a signal from the scattered HD signals.)

Re:Tivo can't compete any more..

[LVWolfman]

If your HD DVR is anything like the ones my cable company (Cox) offers for $10 a month (+ a surcharge for the "digital" outlet and a rental fee for the remote)your HD DVR won't record everything your company provides.

Seems that in Cox's case, their DVR knows what channels it isn't supposed to record. I found that out the hard way. Want to record a pay per view? Can't do it. My Series 1 TiVOs record anything I throw at it.

Re:Tivo can't compete any more..

[drawfour]

You have a TiVo Series 1 and you didn't buy a lifetime subscription??? When I bought my Series 2 (Nov 2003), I immediately purchased the lifetime package and have been past the break-even point for almost 10 months now. TiVo will allow all lifetime subscribers for TiVo Series 1 and Series 2 models to convert their subscription to a lifetime subscription on the TiVo Series 3 by Jan 31, 2007 for all Series 3 purchases before Dec 31, 2006, for $199. $199 / 12.95 is 16 months before it breaks even. Considering I've now had my TiVo going on 3 years, it sounds reasonable. I personally think that $799 for a Series 3 is too expensive, and I was going to use my Series 2 until it ran into the ground and never buy TiVo again because I wasn't going to be able to purchase a lifetime subscription, but now I have to re-think that.

Re:Tivo can't compete any more..

[DaFrogBoy]

Your comcast DVR may cost you only $3.95 / month, but you're completely neglecting the +$60 / month you're most likely paying for comcast to begin with to get that digital cable. And chances are, you're paying a lot more that $60 / month.

If I can get free over the air HDTV and pay $12.95 / month to get nearly all the features supplied by digitial cable, sounds like the $12.95 / month is quite a deal to me.

Oh, and if someone can't live without cable/satelite because of non-local channels, you can get analog cable for $35 / month (in our area, it's only $25 / month) and you're still paying less than you would be with digitial cable and the DVR. Not to mention, if you get multiple TiVo's you can watch shows off of other TiVo's in your house.

So, in summary...

Digital Cable ($60) + DVR ($4)
= $64 / month

Over the air HDTV (free) + TiVo ($14)
= $14 / month

OTA HDTV (free) + TiVo ($14) + Analog Cable ($35)
= $49 / month

I certainly know which of these three would fall on the bottom of my list.

Re:Tivo can't compete any more..

[lp_bugman]

I have my Tivo series one for about 6 years with a life time subscription. Upgraded drives twise, installed network card and hacked a ftp server. Life has been great :)

Re:Tivo can't compete any more..

[rprague]

I'd be paying the 65 bucks a month to comcast regardless of using a Tivo or using their set top box.

Re:Tivo can't compete any more..

[cayenne8]

"I have my Tivo series one for about 6 years with a life time subscription. Upgraded drives twise, installed network card and hacked a ftp server. "

I've got a series2 with lifetime, and think I will do the 'upgrade'. They say your old tivo will be subb'ed for 12 mos. after the transfer...and go to monthly after that.

I refuse to pay a monthly fee for anything like that, so, I'm wondering, what can you do with an old Tivo series2 with no subscription? Are there any good hacks for it?

Re:Tivo can't compete any more..

[Mr2001]

I beg to differ, but Tivo seems to be considerably cheaper than Comcast. Your Comcast also charges you around $65/month for service... [...] Compare this to OTA which is free once you have the setup.

Er... if he only wanted to watch channels that broadcast over the air, he could put up some rabbit ears and stop paying Comcast today. People typically get $65/month cable because they like watching cable channels, you know? You can get "limited cable" for a lot less than that if you just want the basics, but even limited cable gives you more selection than OTA.

Re:Tivo can't compete any more..

[drawfour]

I'm sure there are some hacks... But one thing I'm thinking about doing if I do the upgrade is to sell my TiVo Series 2 and advertise it as coming with a 12-month free service... Depending on what people would be willing to pay for the device itself (assume $100), then anything more than that they pay you that's less than $155.40 (12*12.95) is savings for them and extra for you...

Of course, I'm sure TiVo could put restrictions -- they have to be on the same network, or call home from your phone line or something, but if there are no restrictions, and it's just "12 months free", then sell it and try to make some of the money back.

already have a dual tuner Hi-Def DVR

[jupiterssj4]

I have a DVR (Motorola) DCP612 maybe? It has dual HD tuner and our cable company doesn't even have any HD channels, I feel like its being wasted because of our not using the HDMI out (we have a regular old analog TV), not using the HD, not using the optical out... makes me sad. This DVR comes from our cable company for no charge other than 5 bucks more a month, can't beat that right? Is Tivo a little behind?

Like the Homermobile

[QuantumFlux]

This TiVo reminds me of that Simpsons episode, where Homer finds his long lost brother who runs a car company. Homer designs the world's greatest car for the common man, but it turns out to cost $82,000 and his brother's company is ruined. Tivo has done the same thing by added so many frivolous extras (THX Certification comes to mind) that it's priced out of a lot of people's budgets (including mine).

I haven't bothered with a MythTV/MCE because TiVo was cheap (free after rebate for the 40GB model, quickly hacked with bigger HD) and was easy to use and good at what it does. Now if I want to upgrade it's priced right in line with these other technologies that offer more features. Tivo just isn't competitive anymore, especially once MCE supports CableCard.

Re:Like the Homermobile

[rthille]

If you think the Tivo is like the 'Homer', then what must you think of the Transporter, at only $1999?

Hey, there's a market for these things. People have money to spend. Lots of people have _lots_ of money to spend. You can make a good living catering to them.

$800 for TV is too much

[denis-The-menace]

$800 for TV is too much for a fancy cable that will be obsolete in no time.
These things used to be leased or provided free. (HDTV is over-rated)
This whole DRM business seems to be a license to gouge customers.

I'd rather get MythTV with a way to remote control my digital cable box. (as if that was possible.

Re:$800 for TV is too much

[IAmTheDave]

$800 for TV is too much for a fancy cable that will be obsolete in no time.

Agreed - although $2k was fine for the TV ;)

These things used to be leased or provided free. (HDTV is over-rated)

Free? When? Where? The best I can come up with is my Samsung Tivo/DVD player with a lifetime Tivo Basic subscription for free - which is basically just the programming guide. A cheap lease ($3-5/month) is more common. $800 is absurd.

This whole DRM business seems to be a license to gouge customers.

Just figuring that out now?

I'd rather get MythTV with a way to remote control my digital cable box. (as if that was possible.

It is... just not with HD programming (although, I'm sure you can get an OTA tuner...)

Re:$800 for TV is too much

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think HDTV is over-rated, then you must not have it. A normal station is extremely inferior to a HDTV station on a big screen television.

Too much??

[moracity]

I honestly can't see anyone paying $800 for this. It's not even that slick-looking, nor the specs overly impressive.

I would buy this if....

[fudgefactor7]

...that $800 price tag meant full, lifetime subscription to their programming service and automatic upgrade insurance and lifetime replacement warranty.
 
Other than that, Tivo is smoking something really stong to think $800 is a good price.

Re:I would buy this if....

[Overzeetop]

DirecTV couldn't get the boxes out the door fast enough at $1000 a pop two years ago.

The "real" box will have a great deal more functionality than the stripped down DTV version (which _still_ doesn't even have folders).

$800 is steep. Expect that to be $500 with a year's programming by next summer.

So what happens...

[Anonymous Coward]

to all of us with series 2 DirectTv HD Tivo DVRs?

Re:So what happens...

[Overzeetop]

You now have somewhere to go when DirecTV turns off the Mpeg2 birds. ;-)

Re:So what happens...

[DaFrogBoy]

According to an email I recieved from TiVo...

"You can read more of the exciting details on this incredible box below, but first, as a TiVo subscriber who currently owns a TiVo box with Product Lifetime service, we want to thank you for your loyalty with a very special offer--an exception to a rule when you buy the NEW TiVo Series3 HD box. For a limited time, transfer your Product Lifetime service from a Series1 or Series2 box to the new Series3 HD for only $199. As an added bonus, we'll keep TiVo service activated on your old box for another 12 months for no additional charge"

Looks like you can transfer your lifetime subscription over to it.

Looks about right...

[Controlio]

$800 is just about right for a device of this caliber. It is meant to be leading-edge tech. It is the most advanced DVR out there. The only people who are jumping into the waters early are the people who would gladly fork over that much money to have the latest and greatest - and they will get it.

And for all of the posts bitching about "$800 PLUS subscription!??!?!?", remember that this is a set-top box replacement. You already pay Comcast or [insert other cable behemoth here] $10/month for that POS DVR that they provide with a clunky unreliable interface. $2 more gets you a better interface, suggestions, downloadable content, more guide data, the ability to program over the internet, the ability to download shows to your laptop or other device, the ability to display slide shows, mp3 playback, mp3 streaming, podcast streaming, and so on and so on and so on. And that's not even including the features in the pipeline, like (official) storage upgrades and a ton of other unannounced projects.

For $3 more a month, bring me my TiVo. And as far as the $800 initial fee, if you can't afford it - just wait for the first round of rebates. Or do what I always do, upgrade when they offer unbelievably cheap factory refurb units. Every TiVo I've ever owned has been a refurb - and with proper cable surge protection and a Smart-UPS, my units have never failed me.

Re:Looks about right...

[vondo]

Um, I pay $5 for HD service and another $5 for the DVR. But even if I'm paying $10/month for the DVR, I *don't* have to pay for the hardware up front and if something better comes along in a couple of years, I can jump ship. Plus, another poster stated just renting the cable card may cost $5-10 from your cable provider.

Let's look at this over 5 years:
Comcast cost = 5*12*$10 or $600.
TiVo cost: $800 + 5*12*$5 (cable card) + 5*12*$13 (TiVo service) or $800 + $300 + $780 or $1880

It seems to me that TiVo is three times more expensive over the reasonable life of the box. That may be worth it to some, but not to me.

Re:Looks about right...

[zimm0who0net]

Ummm. Don't forget that the CableCard rental will probably be the same price as your current digital STB rental fee. Plus, you need TWO of them for the Tivo. Your $3 more per month just went up to $13 more per month...

Re:Looks about right...

[tji]

Don't forget, the HD-Tivo has two cablecard slots, to enable recording on two HD tuners simultaneously. So, it will cost you somewhere between $10 and $20 per month for the two cable cards (depending on how much your local cable company charges).

With the Tivo service charge on top of that, the cable company DVR begins to look attractive again.

Luckily, Tivo announced that they would allow those of us that spent $300 on a lifetime service subscription to transfer it over to the new Tivo for *only* $200!! Gee, thanks! I spent $1,000 on the HD DirecTV Tivo, and $300 for lifetime service. Now, I can get a new system for only $800 for the box and $200 for the service?!? Sign me up, dude.

Honestly, I do really like the Tivo, and I would like to see the new series 3 (The DirecTV version is painfully slow, and doesn't include all the Tivo Series 2 features). But, I have a really hard time justifying the expense. I certainly won't be an early adopter for $800, and the Tivo service fees may keep me away even after the unit price drops.

Re:Looks about right...

[jonesy16]

Just for everyone's information, I live in Illinois and have Comcast cable, to BUY my cable card (which is now mine to keep and use with any TV now and forever) was about $23. So if you're paying $5 a month you should probably check what the cost of purchasing that cable card is. Same goes for your cable internet modem, renting is $5/mo but they can be bought for $40 - $50. FYI.

Re:Looks about right...

[jandrese]

IMHO, it's totally worth it to rent the cablemodem for $5 a month. In my experiance they only last about 6 months before going totally flaky (although the "remote diagnostics" the cable company does never find anything out of the ordinary) and having to be replaced. I even have the thing plugged into a Surge Protector/UPS and filter the cable line through it and they still crap out after 6 months.

OTOH, it might just be my lousy local cable company that always buys the absolute cheapest box possible, even if it's a total piece of crap.

Re:Looks about right...

[jonesy16]

I'm just entering month 6 with my cable modem but I haven't had any issues with it yet. Motorola equipment is very reliable from my experience, and the nice thing about owning your own cable modem is you aren't stuck with whatever they want to give you, you can buy any brand you want (I think).

Re:Looks about right...

[cayenne8]

"Now, I can get a new system for only $800 for the box and $200 for the service?!? Sign me up, dude."

Well, in my case...I might just go for it. I have a series2 box with lifetime subscription. I rescued it from my house in New Orleans after Katrina. I was on the top floor of the house, so the 7ft of water in my neighborhood didn't reach my stuff, but, I have not idea how bad power surges were or what....so, I'm not sure if the damned thing will even work again if I plug it in. So, I think I may just indeed do the 'upgrade'.

I've got till 12/31 to buy a new one...I'll hold out and see if a rebate comes out for the unit before then and get maybe break on price too.....

Re:Looks about right...

[cayenne8]

I've got to agree with the other person answering this post. I got a motorolla cable modem myself, and have had it over 3 years with no problems at all. I've had the el-cheapo's that the DSL and cable companies gave me in the past and they did crap out in about 1-2 years, but, no problem with the one I got and I got a good deal on it at Amazon...

Translation...

[Anonymous Coward]

"... in part to waiting for certain technologies to mature ..."

DRM.

"... and the lengthy process of getting industry-related approvals."

More DRM.

Is it worth the extra cost?

[FerretFrottage]

I currently have Comcast cable and their HD DVR. They provide excellent service and PQ, but I also have 2 tivos with lifetime service and while the tivos can't do HD, I love them for their ease of use and extra features that the comcast box doesn't have (e.g. ability to transfer shows between tivos, to my pc, etc.). Oh yeah, and the ability to open my tivos, place nice big drives in there and not worry about be fined (my cable box warns against tampering).

Now with the series 3 you have a monthly fee and at least in my case, it would be an additional $5/month for each cable card. So even with an existing tivo subscriber discount to make the monthly fee ~$7, the total additional monthly cost to go to the series 3 would ~$17 a month. The Comcast HD DVR costs me $10. Is tivo worth $700-800 up front plus a net difference of $7 a month? Right now it is not since Comcast has annouced plans to provide Tivo on their boxes in the near future so I guess until I know what that does to my monthly costs I'll be sticking with the cable providers DVR.

Re:Is it worth the extra cost?

[dylanr]

I also have 2 tivos with lifetime service
...
Now with the series 3 you have a monthly fee

Apparently, TiVo is allowing those who bought LTS on a Series 1 or 2 to transfer it to a Series 3 for $200.

Re:Is it worth the extra cost?

[dylanr]

TiVo is allowing those who bought LTS on a Series 1 or 2 to transfer it to a Series 3 for $200

Here's a better link: TiVo "VIP" offer

Re:Is it worth the extra cost?

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to be grandfathered in to receive the discounts with lifetime memberships. They stopped offering it in March or May of this year.

Re:Is it worth the extra cost?

[FerretFrottage]

Thanks for the info and now making my decision that much harder. I was not aware of such an offer.

Too much

[Joe The Dragon]

Your are better off with geting a HDDVR form you cable company. They are free you just pay a rental fee each month and some even let you use EXT harddisks.
The tivo box needs CableCARDs and some cable companys make you pay rental fee for them as well.

Already for sale on Tivo.com

[jaredcat]

The Series3 went for sale a few hours ago on Tivo.com for $799.

According to TivoBlog, some Best Buy stores are taking preorders showing a delivery date of 9/17/06. There have also been rumors over the past few weeks that Best Buy and CircuitCity will have the Series3 Tivo in stock on the 17th or 19th.

Despite the heavy price tag, the need to rent 2 CableCARDs from my local Cable Company, and the expensive $12.95 Tivo monthly fee, I placed my order within a few minutes of Tivo making the change to their website. I bought one of the first 14-hour Tivos when they went on sale in 1999, and in all that time I have not seen another DVR that has a UI as good as the Tivo one. I finally abandoned Tivo in favor of a Cable Company DVR in 2004 when my local Cable Company started to offer HD programming. Finally Tivo is catching up 2 years later.

By the way, you can thank design firm IDEO for many of the UI innovations of the Tivo (and early Macs as well).

How many dish network patents did they violate?

[GuyverDH]

This setup sounds suspiciously like the 9xx series and the 622 series from dish network.

Only difference being, that the 622 has 2 Dish tuners, plus an off-air HD tuner.
You can record from both tuners, and watch either recorded content or off air on both outputs, totalling 4 concurrent i/o streams.

Re:How many dish network patents did they violate?

[Anonymous Coward]

More like other way around... TiVo was the first, DirectTV copied them, using TiVo just long enough to develop their own copy and then dumping them.

If anything TiVo should be going after DirectTV... but they can't because they still want them as a customer.

Re:How many dish network patents did they violate?

[generic-man]

God, I hope not. The Dish 9xx series looks fantastic except when I had one (last year) it repeatedly failed to record things I had asked it to. That's the primary function of a DVR box. Since then I've had two different Comcast boxes; my current one, which is "Powered by Microsoft," spontaneously reboots at least once a day while I'm watching something.

Re:How many dish network patents did they violate?

[Overzeetop]

they still want them as a customer.

You spelled "need" wrong.

Re:How many dish network patents did they violate?

[GuyverDH]

Not sure which thread you were reading, however, I said Dish-Network, not DirecTV.

TiVO was first (to patent - not have hardware) for ANALOG only.
Dish patented digital - which is what HDTV is.

Re:How many dish network patents did they violate?

[GuyverDH]

I owned the 9xx series for a little over a year, before upgrading to the 622.
I never had any failures, despite a complicated record / preference setup.
This leads us to conclude, that it could have been one of two things.
#1 - Defective unit
#2 - Operator error

Re:How many dish network patents did they violate?

[generic-man]

or: #3 - they upgraded the software after I terminated my service.

A coworker of mine had the same problems I did. We both had a phone number that went to the dev team's voice mail. Who knew that they would actually fix some of those bugs?

(Oddly enough, it never occurred to Dish that my box might have been defective; not once did they offer to swap it out for a better one.)

No Multi-Room or Tivo-To-Go!

[Anonymous Coward]

I have the DirecTV HD Tivo - there were two features that would have made me run out and buy a series 3: multi-room viewing and the tivo-to-go service, where you can download your recorded shows to your laptop/iPod/PSP etc.

None of these options will be enabled on the new Tivo's, even though they've been on the series 2's for years. No way can I justify spending $800 plus service when it doesn't even have all of the "Tivo" features.

Sure, they hint that they'll be coming... but I fell into that trap when I dropped a grand on DirecTV's version! That won't be happening again...

You must be very happy...

[Overzeetop]

...with the included software package you got from Dell when you bought your $300 computer.

Don't feel bad, lots of people are perfectly happy with the base model.

Some of us just want more. This just the thing for those who do.

(Kind of odd really, me being a real fanboi over a CE item. I guess this must be what it feels like for Mac zealots.)

TiVo, Ditch the hardware

[a_greer2005]

Everyone already has the HD hardware via theiur cable company, the problem is the iTv software is shit: TiVo needs to lease/licence their software to cable COs for their DVRs, I owuld sooo pay an extra $4-5/Mo for TiVo software on my leased HDDVR box. $800 is way too much...

Re:TiVo, Ditch the hardware

[MirthScout]

TiVo needs to lease/licence their software to cable COs for their DVRs, I owuld sooo pay an extra $4-5/Mo for TiVo software on my leased HDDVR box.

Some cable and satalite companies do and/or have licensed the TiVo software for thier service. If your cable company doesn't then complain to them. TiVo makes it available to them.

Re:TiVo, Ditch the hardware

[a_greer2005]

Sadly Insight Communications is too busy sucking wind to actually deliver anything like that: I have begged and demanded that, in addition to the NHL and Nascar In Car packages which they refuse to sell...in an odd situation right now but when I move to the new place, it will be Directv and Verizon DSL all the way.

The price WILL come down...

[goUVA]

I remember when TiVos cost over $1000 for the 14-hour model. DVD players used to cost upwards of $2000. My first CD burner was the size of a large toaster oven and burned $40 discs. Times change. Prices fall. Technology moves on. This TiVo has a lot of power in that box, and the cablecards take it to a whole new level. This is one case where the mythtv fanboys can't say "Just build one yourself." It will be a good long while before we see oss for cablecard and encrypted video decoding due to the tight restrictions on that standard. And I'm with Overzeetop - at $400 I'd buy one.

What is new here?

[Oxryly]

I've had a dual tuner 250 Gb HD Tivo for 2 years now... what the hell is this announcement about??

Re:What is new here?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, my series 2 HD DirecTIVO has all of that and it's really a "quad" tuner. 2 off the air antenna HD tuners and 2 DirecTV tuners. Works great! The menus are still in regular def and I guess that's what the series 3 fixes, otherwise I have the best of everything: TiVO, DirecTV, and HD.

Re:What is new here?

[systems_joe]

It records OTA and digital cable. The box you have cannot receive HD from cable TV, this one does. http://www.tivo.com/2.0.boxdetails.asp?box=series3 HDDVR&plan=prepaid3yr

Not quite

[tacokill]

If you want to record Hi-Def shows, you can buy a Mac mini + EyeTV + extra RAM for a total of about $1000

So you can record the HD version of Sopranos on HBO? Or the movie of the week on TNT-HD? Or the latest game on ESPN-HD?

The answer is: no. You can't do that with your Apple. Why? Because you can't put a CableCard in your apple (or your PC, for that matter).

Read and understand this ppl: To record (most) HD programming over your cable system, you NEED a cablecard. OTA channels are nice (ABC, NBC, CBS) but they are a small subset of the HD channels available. And for most of us, we want to record ALL of our HD channels. And to do that -- you need a cablecard from your cable company (or their DVR)

This is the same non-story posted long ago. Lots of talk about DIY and set top boxes but very few ppl understand why those are non-starters. I would LOVE to have a MythTV box but I am not going to waste my time until there is somekind of CableCard implementation that will allow me to DVR -ALL- of my HD channels.

I am glad that Tivo has "announced" their Tivo3 box. But at this point - it's already been announced ad nauseum. We've rehashed this cablecard/tivo/dvr question many times already. Wake me up when we have a solution.

Re:Not quite

[schnurble]

It's not just "announced". It's available for sale.

Re:Not quite

[Golias]

Paying for cable is for people who can't get a signal.

The few cable shows I give a shit about I can watch via NetFlix and/or torrent files.

A big honkin' $50 UHF antenna, and I'm watching Lost, House, and all the "event" sports matches in HD for free. Fuck the cable companies!

way around it?

[HelloKitty]

wouldn't cable cards be "a way around it" for your IR hack problem???

honestly, comcast sucks, even their "DVR"... I hear comcast is integrating TIVO soon though. That may be something to look for - esp. if it's sold for "free"...

Same here

[iceperson]

My cox HD-DVR runs about 13.95 a month (10.00 to "rent" the tuner + 3.95 for the service) with free hardware upgrades. The software isn't as polished as Tivo's, but it records everything I want to watch. Oh, and Cox is adding the option to download Tivo software to their box http://news.yahoo.com/s/cmp/20060825/tc_cmp/192300 035

Re:Same here

[SQLGuru]

That's cool.....the only thing is.....Cox gave my neighborhood to TimeWarner about 5 months ago (which I hated). Of course, having DirecTiVo, I only used Cox (and now only use Time Warner) for my internet connection.

If I can get back on Cox's network, I might be dropping my DirecTV.

Layne

6+ years of $10/month

[iceperson]

I'll save my 800 bones and still use tivo's software http://news.yahoo.com/s/cmp/20060825/tc_cmp/192300 035 with the advantage of getting a lifetime warranty and free upgrades.

Too confusing

[Anonymous Coward]

I stay with my evil cable company because my TIVO options are easy to use. I pay $14.99 a month and I can TIVO (MOXI, actually) whatever I want and it works fairly well.

If TIVO (and/or the sat companies) want to lure me away, they need to simplify things. I am fairly savvy when it comes to electronics. I have a pretty good surround sound and had my house prewired when I built it, in my fam room and master bedroom. (They both have surround.)

I am very computer savvy.

But this crap is just one more hassle I don't need when I can just pay the cable company and have them install this stuff and it works.

TiVo's Blind Spot

[Nom du Keyboard]

TiVo seems to believe that: patents = high prices to the consumer & keeping broadcast industry happy > keeping consumers happy.

IBM learned long ago that when you build a PC with off-the-shelf components that it's only a matter of time before a cheaper competitor comes along.

TiVo doesn't seem to get it yet. Especially because every new model and software update seems to offer less than the previous one. TiVo needs to realize that their customer is the home consumer, and not the movie studios.

Re:TiVo's Blind Spot

[OldeTimeGeek]

I would say that they're very much aware of who their customer is.

They know that they aren't going to interest the folks that build MythTVs, they know that they Series 2s will work just fine with people who don't have or want HDTV and they know that the people who've already spent $2000+ on a HDTV and $60+ a month for HDTV service (and $700+ more on a premium sound system) aren't going to be particularly averse to dropping another $800 for a Series 3.

john delorean

[joeypruett]

this is the Delorean of DVRs.

I won't pay for TV again until...

[laxcat]

I won't pay for TV again until someone can provide a service that mimics my current setup: uTorrent + tvrss.net + XBMC. It's absolutely spoiled me and I just couldn't justify paying for something less. I'd be more than happy to give money to any company that provides a service just like it.

I don't want commercials, I don't want re-runs (mostly) and I don't want to have to use a delivery system other that the gool ol' fashioned interweb. I don't want to just record the airwaves (or cable, etc) becuase I don't want my show to ever be clipped at the begining or end or interuped by W. I want new shows to appear right as they air, I want it all in HD via a set-top unit (specifically designed for this service), and while I'd be happy to pay per show, I don't want to spend more than an average of about $50 a month for the 20 or so series I watch in a given year.

I would not mind at all using my upstream to help distribute bandwith very much like this one program I know. (It starts with bit and ends with torrent.) I wouldn't even mind if they DRMed the shit out of them either, so long as they let me watch it as many times as I want until the DVD comes out.

Other things that would be sweet: the ability to stream live events (sports, award shows, etc.), distibuted cost payment programs (I'd pay $3 a month for "The Simpsons", which would get me every new show when they come out and a spattering of reruns to keep me tided over the rest of the year. This would probably require a pay-per-year model). File sharing across multiple of these propietary set-top units on the same LAN would kick ass too.

Ok, I'm coming back from fantasy land now.

Re:I won't pay for TV again until...

[Anonymous Coward]

hahaha....no commercials? Yea right.

Re:I won't pay for TV again until...

[cayenne8]

"I won't pay for TV again until someone can provide a service that mimics my current setup: uTorrent + tvrss.net + XBMC."

Well, the Tivo does have one advantage, you don't run the chance (granted, a slight one) of getting busted by the man for copyright infringement, and you can with how you currently are using bittorrent for your content.

wrong - series 3 can't send shows to your laptop

[Anonymous Coward]

Although the series 3 does let you send stuff from your PC to it, it does not let you send stuff from it to your PC (thanks to content providers' fuss about wanting strong DRM on HD content).

Are they selling coke to fund it :)

[daninaustin]

I think you are right on this. Like the Delorean it is a great product and some people will have to get it. It will work great but in the end the high price tag will prevent it from going anywhere. Comparisons with early tivo prices are off the mark. The going rate for a device like this is $299 or less (the price for the new HR20 from DirecTV.) The extra subscription cost and the cable card costs are just additional nails in the coffin. It's very sad to say, but I don't think Tivo will be around much longer (I have 4 Directivo's and like them a lot).

Re:Are they selling coke to fund it :)

[joeypruett]

i was just looking at directv's HD boxes and service. i finally ditched the idea of cable's HD because the DVR is one receiver only and the SD channels look like sh*t. (and, no Discovery HD). now i'm researching directv's HD DVR boxes. if you have any tips - please let me know. i have the directv tivo and love it. -joey

Price is not everything

[sponga]

Considering that most cable company ads I see on (SoCal-TW) tv are for their service and reliability; than the price factor is not the best incentive.

Time Warner's Triple Play package is very attractive to people in price and it includes broadband and voip phone; it suckers them into buying the whole package ditching the phone companies. Satellite may not have phone and broadband; but I think they make up that in more quality content and options.

The product can do all it wants but when you do not have a guy knocking on your door the next day because the night before something went wrong, well than that leaves a bad stain. Especially trying to phone order a UFC/PPV fight and not being able to get it in time can dissapoint a whole audience who came over with lots of alcohol.

Will it do On-Demand?

[Dillenger69]

so, for $800 I get a dual tuner box with better functionality than the comcast POS that I put up with to tune the upper range "digital" channels (non-hd) and on-demand.

If the price came down to $400 or so I could see getting one of these IF the cable card lets you access on-demand.

I know Cable Card technology lets you store subscription information and lets you tune the high band digital cable channels.

Does anyone knonw if cable card devices support on-demand?

Cablecard is moot

[BobSutan]

When cable operators actually start giving out cablecards, only then start advertising it as a useful feature. MythTV has been busted down by many for lacking this "feature", but if nobody can get the damned cards in the first place who the hell cares?

The only thing this new Tivo offers over a home-grown DVR is that it's got an HD dual-tuner. Is that really worth $800 plus a monthly subscription? I guess we'll see soon enough.

Re:Cablecard is moot

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with all you pro-MythTV anti-Tivo people is you almost always consider your MythTV PC free. As in you paid for ZERO of the hardware. That's not to say you can't put together the hardware for cheaper for a MythTV PC, but it isn't free. Calculate the price for Case, power supply, Motherboard, RAM, HDD, TWO tuner cards, video card. Now also calculate your time and effort into installing all the software, configuring, reconfiguring, making sure everything is working. $800 Doesn't sound so bad any longer, considering they give you HDTV compatibility over CableCARD (which MythTV will likely never see), among a host of other features that Tivo has.

The only real advantage a MythTV PC has is it's not pigeon-holed into DVR only, you can use that PC for various other media applications (Which Tivo is working on as well).

Re:Cablecard is moot

[frogstar_robot]

The MythTV doesn't have stupid restrictions deliberately built into it. There are some but at least those are addressable without a goon squad confiscating your equipment.

Re:Cablecard is moot

[BobSutan]

Speaking of which, I just read this article at ArsTechnica. Looks like one of the key features of buying a TiVo, at least for me, has been removed.

Bye-bye TivoToGo!

Re:Cablecard is moot

[BobSutan]

For what is requried to run stuff like Myth you certainly can build a system for almost nothing by using parts most people routinely give away. At most you may end up spending up to $100-200 tops. Any more and you're not looking hard enough for free swag.

Don't get me wrong, I like TiVo, but for 800, plus monthly subscription, and minus certain features its just a hard pill to swallow. And to compound issues, one of their features that they try to pimp is moot right out the gate.

Not a general consumer product

[binarymetal]

Few people realize this, but Tivo didn't intend for the Tivo Series 3 to be a "general consumer" product.

For the normal consumer, no one (not even Tivo) expects someone to fork out $800 then the cost of the monthly service with the Series 3.

It was meant for the prosumer/videophile arena.

Take a look at some of the feautures:

*) THX certification.

This was done to appeal to the high-end market. No one else would really care about such a cert.

*) Ability to output native resolution.

This is a HUGE feature with the Series 3. Why? Because high-end video setups use external dedicated hardware video scalers. In that sense, you don't want the Tivo scaling and processing the video signal... you want your dedicated equipment to take care of that job.

*) CC 1.0-only.

With CC 1.0/1.0+ support you don't have access to services like VoD, PPV, etc. The general consumer likes having these services however a videophile who's main goal is PQ (player quality) would be happy to sacrifice this in order to get native rate output (feature meantioned above).

With all this in mind, it puts the $800 price tag more into perspective. If you look at this as a prosumer/videophile-targetted piece of equipment, then price really isn't all that bad.

If you hang out on http://www.tivocommunity.com/ it was pretty common knowledge there that this unit wasn't intended for the casual user.

$800 is a chunk of change, but as a videophile this unit has features that I've wanted for a very very long time. I forked out the dough this morning at http://www.tivo.com/vip/.

Re:Not a general consumer product

[zingbot]

I think binary metal is exactly right. They will undoubtably run this in the higher-end market for awhile and then introduce something lower-end to get the rest of us later. Seems like the Apple marketing strategy.

Re:Not a general consumer product

[Overzeetop]

Early adopters always pay the engineering bills. Once the inital investment is paid off, the rest of us get the harware at just above commodity prices. I think the demand exists. I also think the upgrade to CC2, when the possiblilty occurs, will be rapid. I don't mean that the existing units will be necessarily upgradable, but the newer boxes will be CC2 as soon as TiVo can get them out the door. I wouldn't be suprised, however, to see some sort of upgrade possible. The people buying the first units will likely be the same people craking the boxes to add space or install their own software.

Review, FAQ, and photos

[MegaZone]

http://www.tivolovers.com/Series3-Review.html http://www.tivolovers.com/Series3-FAQ.html http://www.tivolovers.com/Photos/Series3-Review/

Best way to get OTA Digital TV

[raal]

I currently have a series 2 Tivo and Love it, but...

I want to be able to receive Digital OTA broadcast as a couple of the analog tv stations around me (non uhf) ones don't come in anywhere as good as the UHF ones do. Does anyone know of a way to get Digital OTA for the Series2? The Series3 just has a price point that is WAY out of what I want to pay. I have looked at MythTV but found it a tad expensive to build a system as well.

Thanks

I would disagree

[Burning1]

To use a car anology:

The Ford Focus didn't suddenly become expensive the moment that Ford released the $150,000 Ford GT.

I think it's great that Tivo has a new ultra high end model, for those with ultra high end TVs and ultra high end sound systems. The release of this unit did not degrade your Tivo. If anything it will help new technology trickle down into more economical units.

A supercar compliments your $4,000,000 house and trophy wife the way a $800 Tivo compliments your home theater.

And if nothing else, they aren't trying to sell you a $100 "Monster" cable.

actually like the space shuttle

[joeypruett]

i'd like to revise my comment. this dvr, and windows vista, are both more like the space shuttle. expensive and complicated.