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Cheating At Roulette May Be Legal In UK
nuke-alwin writes, "A hidden device that appears to give an advantage to roulette players may be legal in the UK when the gambling industry is deregulated next year. The device — which consists of a small digital time recorder, a concealed computer, and a hidden earpiece — uses predictive software to determine where the ball is likely to land. It has been tested by a government lab, which found that 'the advantage can be considerable.' It will be up to casinos to spot people using such devices."
It has been tested by a government lab
So that's where my tax money goes? Why does the government pay for this research, why not a casino or something?
just like it will be legal for the Casino to shoot you in the knees... Spot on the subject, every geek should read the Eudaemonic Pie about besting the Las Vegas roulettes.
Non-Linux Penguins ?
If you want to know just what kind of consequences are in store for serious cheaters, even if what they are doing is perfectly legal, see Mezrich's Bringing Down the House , the story of the MIT students who used card counting to make millions. Even when they wore disguises on repeat visits, the casino still found them out, and hired goons to put the hurt on. So all of you thinking that you'll now become millionaires, think about how hard it would be to hide all this whizbang gadgetry if even simple card-counting doesn't fly at casinos.
They may be legal but it doesnt mean casinos have to let you in with them, or to allow you to continue playing should you be caught with one.
I'm betting that the casino's will be able to modify the roulette tables enough to give users of the software a significant disadvantage.
Because I detect spam. Next week in The Guardian: the penis enlargement drug that *really* works!
How well will it fare if the casino just uses several balls of different mass? Yeah, predict that.
IANA*
There's a lot of cheat-chat on Slashdot today, isn't there?
-- Albert Einstein
What I don't like is the fact that the article is assuming that the roulette wheel is biased. I personally don't know how much effort is put into making these wheels, but I'm pretty sure that casinos would never want it to be biased since it can only be in the gamblers' advantage. Yes I know that there is friction, impurities in the building material that should be taken into consideration, but to claim that these would affect the outcome of where the ball will land in such a significant way isn't convincing. After all, the ball is being released by a HUMAN while the wheel is turning the other way, and the wheel's starting point varies every time a new gambling round is launched (the wheel isn't placed in a predetermined way before being spun). I smell a scam.
Actually, casinos have a very simple method to sense if you are cheating: you are winning.
Clicker: Used to record the speed of the rotor and ball, the data acquisition clicker can be concealed in a pen, a watchstrap, a shoe or even clipped to a molar tooth. The device is clicked as the two entities pass reference points to gauge the deceleration speeds. The data is sent to a remote computer
Computer: Uses the timings to calculate which number the ball will strike based on an algorithm from data gathered and transmits the information to the earpiece. It is small enough to be hidden in a mobile phone, MP3 player, handbag or cigarette lighter.
I wasn't actually sold on the idea until I read those two parts.. If I can conceal the clicker in my shoe or watch strap, then I can practice at home until I can do this undetected. I could rest my arm against the table and press on the table slightly until it clicks... just a matter of practice. Same thing for the shoe. If you fidgit from foot to foot regularly, it's a simple matter to press your foot down slightly. As far as a lighter - well I can't see casinos banning any form of vice... they themselves sell vice!
Your sig(k) has been stolen. There is a puff of smoke!
it doesn't take two minutes of contemplation to work out this is obviously weapons-grade baloney. The only story here is that The Guardian is cut & pasting "beat the casinos" advertising speil as news for some reason. This isn't my inbox, you jerks!
Is this mysterious device a four petaled shamrock or something?
o hai
Companies have sophicticated electronic detection equipment that can detect the hash from your shoe computer. Using a device to 'help' with roulette is thirty years old. If you haven't read it yet, I highly recommend the book The Eudaemonic Pie. One of the first shoe computers, using a 6502. This should be in the nerd's top ten books to read.
Of course, if you used an asynchronous computer there would be no hash to detect....
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
Most times I've looked they let you bet while the wheel is spinning.
They stop betting long before it stops though.
Cheating at roulette is a myth - Xena is more real than that.
Instead of trying to cheat, I recommend first applying a few simple methods that will increase your odds.
I say - let them approve this device. It won't work anyway...
Here's a nice article with some tips to the addicted roulette players amongst you.
-- You must be yay-high to rule the world.
Other way to put it: the house always wins; if the client is winning, he's cheating. Period.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
If the casino gets you to promise you won't use such a device before they let you play, wouldn't anything you win be obtaining monies by deception?
I think you should be allowed to cheat at gambling. That way, everyone — casino included — gambles, not just the punters. Casinos can't complain that this isn't fair, because (1) life's not fair anyway, someone out there will always be fitter/smarter/stronger than you and be at an advantage; and (2) they make a dumptruck off of idiots anyway.
Of course, being private establishments, casinos should also be free to eject anyone they don't like from their premises.
Wouldn't making this device illegal be like making studying the form of horses illegal? Or making bets on footbal based on previous football results illegal?
God Be Gone
I'm kind of divided on whether that guy deserved the money he won or not. On one hand, he built the card counting machine himself as you say, so it all came from his ability directly. On the other hand, of course, people aren't expecting to play against a combination of human and machine...
In a few years (or now?), when people can build such machines inside their own bodies, I wonder if casinos will still be viable. Of course, it can all just end up being a protection->anti-protection->anti-anti-protection game... We'll see!
The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
Welcome to the first episode of Slashdotting Vegas: Taking slashdotting to new heights!
One possible outcome of an article like this is that instead of the usual we-screwed-your-server-in-10-minutes, something along the lines of "We took half your cash away" could be brewing. There is nothing more intriguing to a geek than a hack, and hacking a casino for money (thereby chicks) is the ultimate adventure. Just look at the comments..advice, experiences, possible ways to get around security, links to books. Don't you just love slashdot?
Predicting the fall of Vegas in 3, 2, 1...
On the other hand, this guys/gals apparently got away without any problem (unless they turn out to appear in a container some time in the future...).
The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
In what way is this cheating?
Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
People sure as hell complain when government makes laws or regulations without any basis in research ... and here we have people whining when the research is done!
...would they get money, but cheating at roulette
Ah well, there goes my million....
Web Sig: Eddy Currents
Why the 'may be legal' headline? It's perfectly legal in the UK and the US.
Is such a device illegal in the U.S. I've always been under the impression that it was legal to cheat in Las Vegas casinos, but that they have the right to decide which people they wish to let in. I don't think you can be legally punished for counting cards in blackjack.
... influencing the outcome of the game (e.g. with a magnet) is cheating. There's nothing in the rules of Roulette that says "The gamblers shall not attempt to predict when and where the ball lands" -- or, at least, not the last time I checked. Roulette is simply flawed in an era when palm-sized computers are ubiquitous. Similarly, blackjack can be beaten by card-counting, but card-counting is not cheating, it's good memory.
Why-oh-why don't casinos just use entropy generators? The user presses a button, a computer generates a number between 0 and 100, if it's lower than or equal to 48 they lose, if it's above then they win.
In fact by using central limit theorem, and allowing the user to enter how many bets they would like to place, and how much money, you can compound an entire nights worth of bets into a fraction of a second! What a time saver!
// MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
Thats just stupid of the casinos let people use a cheating device. And it is also stupid for the government to make this legal. Why dont they all just take a pencil and piece of paper with them while they play blackjack and count cards.
GI
Separate the "player" from the "clicker" that is the person watching the ball is not the person with the ear piece who is making the bets. It would then be much harder for the casino to figure out how the better was placing the bets as he would not have the clicker and computer on his person. To go one step further it should be possible to break all three apart. the "clicker" watches the table and clicks the timing device, the "computer" sits at the bar and is not playing at all he is simply there to carry the computer, the "player" has the ear piece an make the bets based on the signal he gets from the computer.
The other aspect would be to use radio frequencies that are not normally used so that the Casinos would not likely be checking for them. You could even add further complications by using infrared to communicate between the clicker and the computer and radio between the computer and the player.
An even better approach would be for the player not to have an ear piece at all. As I understand it the computer does not predict a give number but only what part of the wheel the ball is most likely to fall into. So we could have a "clicker" communicating with a computer. The person with the computer then sends very subtle signals to the player by how he sits or stands. The player can watch for the signals without any devices on his person. If all this were done at a smaller casinos in say, a place like Elko, Nevada where the staff would not be as sophisticated as they would be in Las Vegas or Reno or Atlantic City, one might be able to pul it off.
In both cases, there are draconian measures that are effective. To wit: in blackjack, a paranoid casino can simply expel players who make widely varying bets, and forbid new players from starting play except at the start of a new shoe. In roulette, the casino can require bets down before releasing the ball.
In both cases, however, casinos have to walk a fine line. They want to encourage the illusion that you *could* win, while eliminating what is, after all, only a tiny minority that is capable of successfully beating the game. Thus, you can walk around Vegas and see signs for blackjack that has a low minimum bet and even that uses a single shoe -- hallmarks for attracting people who think they can count cards.
As with blackjack, the non-random roulette winner is fairly easy to spot. Placing bets that cover a particular segment of the wheel (the best computers right now can narrow it down to about 5 sequential positions) is a somewhat odd bet. When a pit boss notes someone winning by making a series of "segment" bets, he can simply refuse their action (and of course, take their picture and distribute it to other casinos).
The casino doesn't really want to require all bets down before releasing the ball because it slows down play and discourages the illusion that it might really be possible to win.
People who can beat the house at BJ and roulette are to casinos as shoplifters are to stores. In both cases, the business elects to tolerate a certain amount of it in order to avoid imposing measures that will slow down the flow of cash from their "real" customers.
You can certainly hear it's radio interference on cheap speakers.
These days there are simply thousands of "computers" in a casino anyway. I highly doubt they could tell your cellphone from your roulette computer.
If I understand TFA correctly, the idea is that the device calculates the rate of the ball by knowing its position at two given times. At that point, predicting the landing point of the ball is as easily as distance = rate x time.
The reason this works in roulette is that it's one of the few games that the players are allowed to place their bets once the game has already started:
Repeat
Until 0=1
By doing this instead:
Repeat
Until 0=1
The device no longer works. Why would a casino not want to do this? Because the more bets that are placed, the more money they make. If the casino has to wait for all the bettors to finish placing before the ball is spun, fewer spins are made over the course of a day and therefore less money is made by the house.I'm not exactly sure, but from what I've read, it's somewhat obvious that not too many of you that are posting comments really know how the wheels themselves are made. They're not just machined on a lathe anymore. They're made with a laser guided lathe that's completely automated. The bearings are very close to perfect spheres, and the weights and balances are also perfect before they get shipped to the casino's. Yes, there are small imperfections depending on the wood used, quality of the brass used, and other small things, however they have absolutely no effect on the outcome of the game. It's completely random. until the computer comes into play. With simple alogarithms, you can predict where the ball will land. The fact that the numbers on the wheels are in a standard order is what allows this.
When it comes to the bets being closed before the wheel spins and the ball drops, it won't happen. Part of the excitement of roulette is hopping into a game already in action. It gives the illusion of an advantage, and sadly, with the computer, it is an advantage. They can easily detect electronics like that, and soon it will be standard practice to scan for the computer.
An AC posted this, I Don't have modpoints so i'm taking it out of -1 hell.
u lettecomputer.htm these machines are FAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mark Howe is a scamster! see this website: http://www.roulettesystemreviews.com/r-markhowero
WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
Seems like the law definitely comes into it at some point e.g. when "they later find out you cheated" and you say "no I didn't". Whatever evidence led them to this conclusion has to be shown to someone -- a jury/judge -- since whether this is true defines whether you committed fraud.
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
once you are in the casino you are on their property and agreeing to play by thier rules. They can just confiscate your chips and ban you for life. If you step onto their property you are then trespassing. All legal and proper, no goons needed.
Just like counting cards is not illegal, but if you are suspected of doing so they will throw you out. And often circulate your name as a suspected counter to other places who will then ban you as well.
Once again, all legal and proper, no violence needed.
I am not saying it hasn't happened, but just that there are other routes they can go to remove troublesome winners.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
The first wearable computer was used for this from 1961 to 1966. When it wasn't bugged, it worked well. The project started at MIT in 1955. I thought there was a link to Bill Gates also, but I can't find that part.
Here's the paper.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
"Cheating At Roulette May Be Legal In UK"
This isn't even incorrect, it is entirely misleading and exactly in opposition with the facts:
The device described in this article wasn't deemed 'cheating'. Therefore the legality of the device isn't covered by any cheating laws.
I would like to ask, does anyone have a good starter for the 'bias' software? also, a few posts for forums.makezine.com (someone was talking about what to put in their tooth cap I think) look for some parts, and open source version of this would be puka.
#hostfile 0.0.0.0 primidi.com 0.0.0.0 www.primidi.com 0.0.0.0 radio.weblogs.com
You're winning.
There is no law in Nevada that says you can't take a roulette computer in to a casino.
But here is also no law saying the casinos have to allow such devices. Hence they don't.
In other news, it was recently discoevered it is not illegal to bring food and beverage sito a movie theatre.
CUT TO: INT. RICK'S CAFE - GAMBLING ROOM - NIGHT
[ Jan sits at the roulette table. He has only three chips left and seems bewildered as Rick comes up the croupier speaks to Jan. ]
CROUPIER: Do you wish to place another bet, sir?
JAN: No, no, I guess not.
[ Rick stands behind Jan. ]
RICK (to Jan): Have you tried twenty-two tonight? I said, twenty-two.
[ Jan looks at Rick, then at the chips in his hand. ]
[ Jan pauses, then puts the chips on twenty-two. ]
[ Rick and the croupier exchange looks. The croupier understands what Rick wants him to do. ]
[ He spins the wheel. ]
[ Carl follows the proceedings, fascinated. ]
[ The wheel stops spinning. ]
CROUPIER (in French) : Twenty-two, black, twenty-two.
[ A winner. Renault, at a nearby table, takes notice of what is happening. ]
[ The croupier pushes a pile of chips onto twenty-two and Jan reaches for it. ]
RICK (not even looking at Jan): Leave it there.
[ Jan hesitates, then withdraws his hands. ]
[ Carl continues to watch. ]
[ The wheel spins. Nobody speaks while it spins. It stops. ]
CROUPIER (in French) : Twenty-two, black.
[ Another winner. The croupier shoves a pile of chips toward Jan. ]
RICK (to Jan): Cash it in and don't come back.
[ Jan rises to go to the cashier. ]
CUSTOMER (complains to Carl): Say, are you sure this place is honest?
CARL (fervently): Honest! As honest as the day is long!
[ Meanwhile, Rick has walked over to the croupier. ]
RICK: How we doing tonight?
CROUPIER: Well, a couple of thousand less than I thought there would be.
[ Rick smiles slightly and goes toward the door. ]
[ Annina runs up to him and hugs him. ]
ANNINA: Monsieur Rick, I --
RICK: -- He's just a lucky guy.
--
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0034583/quotes
This isn't the first system invented that can beat the house. Before card counting was invented and described in Edward O'Thorpe's book "Beat the Dealer," he had discovered and capitalized on a couple side-bets with positive expectation he found in Bacarat. The casinos simply eliminated them. When card-counting arrived, casinos introduced multiple decks (which don't eliminate the edge, but does decrease it) and early shuffling. Early shuffling costs them money by decreasing the hands played per hour, but they can employ it only when they suspect a counter at the table. A simple solution for removing the edge for roulette is for the coupier to re-touch the center wheel once after closing the betting, either accelerating or decelerating a little. Easy to do, effective, and no decrease in the amount bet/hour.
The Eudaemonic Pie is a classic tale of a few brilliant UCSC physics and math majors building a roulette predictor using the KIM-I 6502-based single board computer. The guy with the KIM timed successive rotations of the ball around the wheel to get its decelleration. He used switches in his shoes connected to the KIM if I remember right. And from the decelleration and the position of the ball at the start of the timing, the KIM computed the octant into which the ball was most likely to fall. It then transmitted the octant by RF to the bettor who was ignoring the table so as not to attract the attention of the house. The bettor had an RF receiver attached to some simple electronics that activated one of eight vibrators attached to different places on his body. The bettor then bet on the numbers in the appropriate octant and achieved a significant advantage over the house. The students had a professional wheel in the basement of their house on which the tested their system. I believe that one of the students was instrumental in developing the basis for chaos theory when he wasn't working on the roulette cheater. Or maybe it was the other way around. And one or more of them went to work at Los Alamos National laboratory after leaving Santa Cruz. I found this story very interesting and exciting, not the least reason for which was that I also had a KIM-I computer (my first electronic comuter) for which I had written some software to automate my darkroom, and I was considering programming it to cheat at Blackjack in a similar, if much less technically advanced, way. I never went through with my project, but I still have my KIM-I on my wall, right next to my first non-electronic computer, an abacus.
I would give the casinos their rule and the Nevada law that you can't have a calculator or a computer to count cards. Think of cheating on an exam -- if the ground rules of the exam say no calculator and you have a calculator hidden in your shorts, you are just plain cheating. On the other hand, if you are gifted or practiced at mental arithmetic, there is no way you can make a ground rule for an exam that you cannot use your gift to do the math. If you are caught with some kind of device, I would say you are just plain cheating. But do the casinos have a rule/law against counting cards if you are smart enough to do it in your head (heck, a halfway-good bridge player counts cards to figure what the other side has)? Can they arrest anyone for mental card counting? Do they kick people out/ban them for mental card counting?
julesh: only license one big casino per city, AFAIK. You may be able to get two or three in if you hit a particularly dense area
Presumably dense, in this context, refers to the collective IQ of any local councillors who actually permit planning permission for these things. Organised crime ahoy!
The UK doesn't need casinos; we already have legalised sports betting. People who want to gamble can already do so at any of the dozens of racecourses throughout the country, or in any sports betting shop on every high street in every town, or online using any of the dozens of sports betting chain websites. All perfectly legal and, in the vast majority, quite honest and respectable.
Back in the early 80's a group of hippy hackers in California did it. Read The Eudaemonic Pie for the details. Fun, and funny, book.
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